Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Mark Griboff on November 07, 2013, 02:00:06 am
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dearest all,
my grandmother gave me some money (around 2000USD to be precice) with a condition to by myself something 'for ages'.
since i'm not into expensive watches of other trinkets, i immedeately turned to classic MF cameras.
being a digital protographer, i was overwhelmed with amount of choise and in the same time lack of information on this matter.
so right now i ask for your advise:
i need a film camera system that will
a. fall into said price range (less is better obviously)
b. is more of less compact (hassy compact vs. rz67 bulk)
c. will be reliable enough to be (gently) used for decades
d. will be capable of expanding with additional options (lens, prisms, etc) more or less available on ebay without months of searching
e. will be capable of accepting (used) digital back after some time
my current preference after days of searching is Mamiya 645 pro tl, but i'm flexible.
and as to digital back - i LOVED the colors of Kodak DCS Pro Back 645
oh, and as to my shoots - that's 70/30 of studio people portraits to outside architecture, nature, travel
thank you very much
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The Pro TL does not take digital backs. Your options are...
1. Hasselblad V-series
2. Hasselblad H-series
3. Mamiya 645 AFD (or newer)
4. Contax 645
If you want something that will last for decades my suggestion would be a Hassy V-series, as it's all mechanical.
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The Pro TL does not take digital backs. Your options are...
1. Hasselblad V-series
2. Hasselblad H-series
3. Mamiya 645 AFD (or newer)
4. Contax 645
If you want something that will last for decades my suggestion would be a Hassy V-series, as it's all mechanical.
amsp, thanks for your reply!
1. which one of 15+ models would be preferable?
2. huge and way beyond price range (3500USD+ currently on ebay)
3. awesome, but bulky due to the handle
4. same as hassy H
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I would say the Hasselblad V series is the obvious choice, because your grandmother will probably even dig it. After all, it is the camera that went on the moon and was in the movies of her youth.
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/1c/83/7a/1c837a44e05bf4f4eedeefbbf7aa44db.jpg)
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amsp, thanks for your reply!
1. which one of 15+ models would be preferable?
2. huge and way beyond price range (3500USD+ currently on ebay)
3. awesome, but bulky due to the handle
4. same as hassy H
I'd say get a 501CM or 503CW, they are the latest versions and the only difference is the 503 can be used with a motor winder if you want.
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The Mamiya AFd series is pretty small. Its less awkward than a Hass V with a meter prism.
For Hass V, AMSP speaks the truth: 501cm, 503CW, but you could save some cash and get a 503CX. Its a 503CW but not winder compatible. The very good thing about the Hass V is that it is very repairable. No electronics.
amsp, thanks for your reply!
1. which one of 15+ models would be preferable?
2. huge and way beyond price range (3500USD+ currently on ebay)
3. awesome, but bulky due to the handle
4. same as hassy H
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$2,000 isn't much in digital, barely gets there in film for something medium format.
A contax body in LN condition is $1,700, plus you need a viewfinder, film backs and lenses, which will push the price way beyond your original 2 grand.
If I had 2 grand and wanted something for life I'd buy an M-8 and shop around or some 24mm lens. That will still push you to about $2,500, but if you don't get caught up in the "need" more syndrome you'll have a very good but quirky little camera that should last a long, long time and it shoots a dng file which will process in anything and it's ccd which has a different look.
My m8 is strange, but it's very tough and I'd never sell it.
IMO
BC
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Hi Mark,
I have read this thread -http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00Lvv8- that says you can use a Kodak DCS Pro back on a Mamiya 645af body with a factory mod.
I have my Mamiya 645af outfit on ebay now-eBay item 111206520496- which comes with the 80mm af and 105-210 af zoom starting at $600.00.
Mike
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You have many options.
To even increase your possibilities of choice I'd like to mention the Mamiya 7 II (which I use myself).
Example (not a recommendation) on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-7II-Rangefinder-Camera-N-80mm-f-4-L-Lens-Kit-EXC-/321127597322?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4ac4b2450a
for US $ 2050.-
- Lightweight MF Rangefinder, 6x7 cm format
- Stellar glass - it can smoke Leica 35 mm
- Fun to use and ergonomically slick
- Film only - there is no digital option except hybrid/scanning.
Cheers
~Chris
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The Mam. 7 is an aquired taste. I never recomend it to people because many people don't like it.
I think its the best camera system ever made if you don't need close focus and TTL. The 80mm close focus attachment and its wire viewfinder are goofy but effective. The lenses are second to none. But it is a rangefinder, and this turns people off.
You have many options.
To even increase your possibilities of choice I'd like to mention the Mamiya 7 II (which I use myself).
Example (not a recommendation) on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-7II-Rangefinder-Camera-N-80mm-f-4-L-Lens-Kit-EXC-/321127597322?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4ac4b2450a
for US $ 2050.-
- Lightweight MF Rangefinder, 6x7 cm format
- Stellar glass - it can smoke Leica 35 mm
- Fun to use and ergonomically slick
- Film only - there is no digital option except hybrid/scanning.
Cheers
~Chris
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One vote for the Contax 645!
I have used Hassy V, RZ67 and Contax 645 which in my opinion has something special when you consider zeiss lenses, rendering and bokeh. The AF is slow but precise, it drains a lot of batteries but in the end I'm really happy to use one and happy when I see the result. Remember the 5 blade diaphragm of the Hassy 500 which renders highlights as pentagons, really disturbing. The Contax has 8 blades and gives a very good out of focus feeling. Then you have the 35mm and the 120 Makro, the last one would be a reason to buy the camera only for use this lens. I'm using it with a Phase One back and it works flawless, never stops, never communicating issues. Last thing, the lenses are cheap compared to Hasselblad H, with the price of 1 H lens you can buy 3 Contax.
Good luck
Rob
www.pastrovicchio.com
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Hi,
I have a V series Hasselblad (555ELD). It is a nice classical camera with interface for digital and fits well within your budget. Hasselblad V-series lenses are dirt cheap and quite OK. Well possible that modern lenses are better, but you can buy a V-series Hasselblad and two lenses within your budget, so I would regard it as an interesting option.
Best regards
Erik
$2,000 isn't much in digital, barely gets there in film for something medium format.
A contax body in LN condition is $1,700, plus you need a viewfinder, film backs and lenses, which will push the price way beyond your original 2 grand.
If I had 2 grand and wanted something for life I'd buy an M-8 and shop around or some 24mm lens. That will still push you to about $2,500, but if you don't get caught up in the "need" more syndrome you'll have a very good but quirky little camera that should last a long, long time and it shoots a dng file which will process in anything and it's ccd which has a different look.
My m8 is strange, but it's very tough and I'd never sell it.
IMO
BC
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As a guy very biased normally towards Phase One and Mamiya my suggestion at these price points (which as many alluded narrow the options considerably, but still provide many great timeless options):
- Mamiya RZ
- Leica M film camera or Leica M8
- Hasselblad 500 series (really not that important which one)
All are built like tanks, have timeless qualities to their construction/ergonomics/look and are in wide enough abundance to ensure you can find one that balances your tolerance for imperfect-condition with your available budget.
Digital for the RZ and 500 is pretty straight forward: multiple digital backs made will fit on the 500 directly or on the RZ via adapter. Digital for a Leica M film camera is existent but you'd be building (over time) a lens collection that would work great on an M8 or M9 or future M body (or even non Leica bodies like my beloved X-Pro 1). Digital M8 is already digital and as suggested above if you just don't pay attention to what else "more" there is out there you will never be disappointed by the quality of image it produces within the range of light it can shoot in.
To me the RZ provides the best value in so far as you get a big fat 6x7 negative/positive and very very good lenses for insultingly cheap (Mamiya doesn't have "collectors" brand name appeal, and were made in great quantities, and are manual focus only - an economic recipe for very low cost on the used market that doesn't even remotely reflect the quality/character of the lenses).
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Well possible that modern lenses are better, but you can buy a V-series Hasselblad and two lenses within your budget, so I would regard it as an interesting option.
"Better" of course encompasses many factors two photographers may not agree on.
Empirically there is no question that the best modern lenses are sharper than the Hassy 500 series lenses. However, there is a character to some lenses like the Hassy Zeiss, the Mamiya 7, Leica M, and Schneider LS lenses that go beyond "just being sharp".
So if you love the look of a 500 series lens (no issue finding sample images on flickr and the like for these) then you shouldn't worry too much about "better" modern lenses; especially given your available budget.
Find something you love using, and will do the job well enough. That's a better recipe for happiness in life than finding something that does the job very well but you only sorta like using. This of course, assuming you can't find something within your budget that can do the job very well and you love using.
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Kodak DCS Pro Back 645
In my very openly biased opinion there are several backs that won't cost much more than a Proback which will offer significantly greater future-proofing.
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everybody, thanks for the input!
that's a lot of info to process, but i have a big question for the time being - why isn't anyone mentioning Rollei? 6008 looks like a good start, is it not?
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Rollei 6008 digital back options are slim
Rollei Hy6 is awesome but out of your budget range
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Hi,
Yes, why not? Those cameras were great and perhaps they still are. We are fortunate to have EricWHiss on these forums, a very decent poster who may know all the answers.
Best regards
Erik
everybody, thanks for the input!
that's a lot of info to process, but i have a big question for the time being - why isn't anyone mentioning Rollei? 6008 looks like a good start, is it not?
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Hi Doug,
I would say that MFDigital is out of that budget range, at least for now.
Best regards
Erik
Rollei 6008 digital back options are slim
Rollei Hy6 is awesome but out of your budget range
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i might have not made myself totally clear. my bad.
USD 2000 is for a FILM camera (and a lens or two). a starting point to build up from.
digital option is a subject to additional financing in the future.
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Hi,
I think you made it pretty clear, but many of us are in the digital age. I would expect some used digital backs becoming available at half way reasonable prices in the future. So, thinking 'option digital' is a good thing.
Best regards
Erik
i might have not made myself totally clear. my bad.
USD 2000 is for a FILM camera (and a lens or two). a starting point to build up from.
digital option is a subject to additional financing in the future.
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While teh 6008 is incredible, it is very much an electronic camera. Some models had bugs, some have iffy electrics. The later models, particularly the 6008AF, were reliable but they are out of your range, I believe. $1700 -$2000 body only from reputable sellers.
everybody, thanks for the input!
that's a lot of info to process, but i have a big question for the time being - why isn't anyone mentioning Rollei? 6008 looks like a good start, is it not?
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Hi,
I think you made it pretty clear, but many of us are in the digital age. I would expect some used digital backs becoming available at half way reasonable prices in the future. So, thinking 'option digital' is a good thing.
Best regards
Erik
I've been expecting that for the last couple of years.... MF Digital backs don't seem to drop in price as quick as smaller digital cameras, and if memory serves correct, there have been plenty of buy back programs for them that has most likely kept the market resale value kind of high.
As to the OP, I would look for the form factor/feel that works best for you, and move on from there. If you don't need some of the features and speed digital provides, then shooting a camera like an old TLR can be very rewarding. So, it could be worth it to not worry about the digital path until you are going digital, and just get the camera you love to shoot most.
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i might have not made myself totally clear. my bad.
USD 2000 is for a FILM camera (and a lens or two). a starting point to build up from.
digital option is a subject to additional financing in the future.
I would get this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800990746-USE/mamiya_215000_7_medium_format_rangefinder.html
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Mark,
What are you shooting with now? What are you shooting? How involved are you looking to get into developing your own film, or are you planning to send it out?
For what it's worth, I'd say get a 35mm film camera where you can leverage your existing lenses (if you have any) and spend the balance on B&W film and processing costs - for more than a few months of shooting. The costs of getting into a medium format camera where you can put a digital back on later can quickly overwhelm folks. Yes, you can get a Hassey V, but are you going to be killing yourself due to lack of film or processing? Are you going to be matching this gift out of your own pocket?
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i might have not made myself totally clear. my bad.
USD 2000 is for a FILM camera (and a lens or two). a starting point to build up from.
digital option is a subject to additional financing in the future.
It's your money, but it seems this is also a sentimental buy, something you want to remember for a long time.
I have 4 contax, two digital backs, they're good, still not real cheap even though mine are old in the digital world. In fact a decent p31 a body two finders and a few lenses is going to be 10 grand if they're in good shape.
To me, m8 I use more and enjoy more because I can take it places and it works in most settings, other than tethering.
(http://ishotit.com/leica_24.jpg)
(http://ishotit.com/leica_sf.jpg)
IMO
BC
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I would steer clear of a 5x4 technika it's a dead end system without the precision movements needed for digital and the lenses to cover film are of no use with a digital back and the film/Polaroid costs and availability are prohibitive.
I would get a 500 H/Blad with 80mm as a start then maybe a 50 or 120/150 if you can afford it. Plenty of 22-39mp backs out there for when you want to move to digital.
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You should be able to find a used H1 kit for $1.5-2K if you are patient. Or a body for around $1K and then buy the other pieces separately.
Used H backs are probably the cheapest of all mounts and for not so much more than a DCS back you could probably buy a much better P21+/P25+/P30+ back.
At a later stage you could also upgrade your H1 to a H4x and have the most recent MF body (together with the Hy6) that allows both film and digital.
The Rollei 6008AF is probably a very good film platform but as a digital platform you are limited to a number of older backs of which I don't know whether they are still supported.
You could buy a Rollei 6008AF though with one or perhaps two PQ/PQS lenses and later upgrade to a Hy6 body. You would still be able to use your lenses with focus confirmation.
The Hasselblad V and Mamiya RZ67 are excellent film platforms but at this point in time I personally would not consider them as a base for a future move to digital.
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Hi,
I bought a mint condition Bronica ETRSi, metering prism, A non metering prism, a couple of focusing screens, 120 film back, Motor winder, 40mm f/4 and 150mm f/4 for around USD 1k.
Absolute joy to use and rather than saying it's a poor man's Hasselblad, I'd say Hasselblad is a rich man's Bronica. :D
If you're not planning to sell it off any time soon, I highly recommend it.
It is technically possible to use digital backs on it (Leaf still makes backs for Bronica, I think) and you can mount Hasselblad V backs on it via a very expensive adapter from Silvestri, but I'd buy it for the film experience alone.
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Finding a MF camera and couple lenses for under $2k that you can add prisms and maybe a digital back to later means to me a used Hasselblad V kit, or used Mamiya RZ or 645AF. You could probably get an RZproii and 3 lenses and still have money left over. It's really a great value actually, and lots of digital backs were made to fit that camera or can be adapted to fit that camera. You could get into a used 6008AF or integral2 and one lens kit certainly, but pushing the budget. Oddly 6008I2 and 6008AF's are selling new now for close to what the used fetch on ebay, and the used prisms are cheap, but the lenses still command high prices - and way over your budget. As pointed out, there are not as many digital back options for the Rollei 6000 series. For info sake, the best digital set up for the 6008af was the phase p20, and I've seen a number of them sell around $5k for camera kit and back, but you still need lenses. If you can find a CF-22 or CF-528, those are also pretty nice since you don't have the image bank, and not as expensive as the CF-39's.
I like the RZ and don't really mind the weight, but never understood the Contax 645 for its relatively small viewfinder - though I understand that people really like them. The 645af? Never liked it. The mamiya 7ii has great lenses and is a super film camera. It's too bad there wasn't a digital option for this camera. I've seen a few self made ones though. It's fun to see what people craft for themselves. Actually, I'm surprised to not see more adapted phase backs onto the 6008's. There was a poster here years back, Andre Napier, that made himself a p25+ and Rollei 6008AF combo. Maybe as the prices come down on the older used digital backs we'll see more creative stuff being done? I use my AFi-ii on my Linhof Technika and its really fun, but a bit too heavy.
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i might have not made myself totally clear. my bad.
USD 2000 is for a FILM camera (and a lens or two). a starting point to build up from.
digital option is a subject to additional financing in the future.
Mark,
For some reason, many old and useful film cameras do not necessarily make good electronic cameras.
Hasselblad H, Mamiya, and maybe Contax, Hasselblad V to some degree are those which can really do both.
A decent dealer will tell you what to expect.
Edmund
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Up for sale on this site:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83290.0
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83924.0
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As to the OP, I would look for the form factor/feel that works best for you, and move on from there. If you don't need some of the features and speed digital provides, then shooting a camera like an old TLR can be very rewarding. So, it could be worth it to not worry about the digital path until you are going digital, and just get the camera you love to shoot most.
i really like the hassy 500 / mamiya645pro size/feel. and as far as my monitoring of ebay goes, one can buy a desent digital back for the 1st one for around 1500 these days (16 mpix).
no digital options for mamiya thou, sadly
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I would get this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800990746-USE/mamiya_215000_7_medium_format_rangefinder.html
and how exactly would you make it digital?
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tnaks for your input, jsch. but 4x5 does seem a little carried away for now. i'd stick with smth that would fit in my backpack and wouldn't always require a tripod, assiatant of both :)
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Mark,
What are you shooting with now? What are you shooting? How involved are you looking to get into developing your own film, or are you planning to send it out?
For what it's worth, I'd say get a 35mm film camera where you can leverage your existing lenses (if you have any) and spend the balance on B&W film and processing costs - for more than a few months of shooting. The costs of getting into a medium format camera where you can put a digital back on later can quickly overwhelm folks. Yes, you can get a Hassey V, but are you going to be killing yourself due to lack of film or processing? Are you going to be matching this gift out of your own pocket?
i shoot mainly D800 now. people, nudes, commercial stuff. studio/outdoors - 70/30
no way i'm going to go into chemicals. sending out is fine by me. only option is maybe getting a pro scanner later on.
i don't fancy 35mm since the 'sensor' size will stay the same. i shot with a friend's F100 for a while and want' impressed.
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once again, thanx for all the ideas, everyone!
m8 could look like an interesting choice, but lens prices are sky high
hassy h1 is now on my ebay monitoring list
bronica? interesting option, but somehow doesn't 'click' me
rollei 6008af is definetly out of the price range
i've ordered mamiya 645 pro from japan, since it's dirt cheap compared to everything else - just to play around while i hunt for smth else.
in the end i feel like i'll end up with 645afd2 or h1 when i'll manage to pursuade myself to put up with their bulkyness.
Doug,
> In my very openly biased opinion there are several backs that won't cost much more than a Proback which will offer significantly greater future-proofing.
can you name a few?
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In my very openly biased opinion there are several backs that won't cost much more than a Proback which will offer significantly greater future-proofing.
can you name a few?
We just sold a refurbished, warrantied, [P20, DF+ body, and 80LS lens] kit for $4490 including C1 training. I'm not suggesting that kit for you since it's not compatible with film, but it's an example of the good quality you can find at the low-end of pricing when working with a good dealer, without any of the hassle/risk of buying no-warranty gear privately. I don't know what we would have sold the P20 for by itself (feel free to email me, dep@digitaltransitions.com, if you want me to find out). But I'd imagine not much different than you'd find a good condition ProBack for.
At the very low end of pricing the P20, P21, P25, Aptus 22 are all very solid backs from manufacturers that are still in the business. Full software support (under modern OS's), broadly available accessories, manufacturer repair/service still available, and can even be found with warranty (repair costs on low-end backs can be very price prohibitive without a warranty). The P-series in particular was extremely durable in construction and is likely to last you many many years into the future.
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The camera I call and use as a MF film classic, is the Rolleiflex. I know it does not tick most of the OP boxes, but it does tick boxes that other cameras do not.
A simple camera well made with a fixed lens is much better than the sum of it's paper spec parts in use.
Easily within budget too, I would recon a better investment than the Hassy long term. 3.5F my choice.
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It sounds like you are either looking for some portability, but for price leaning for the Hass.
If going for the Hass, consider the RZ, as I like both very much, for versatility and price purposes, I can only see the RZ Pro2 meet this. The lens setup for DB's are still top notch at bargain prices below $500. The body is solid and service is available. You have a bllows option a tilt shift option, a macro, viewing glass options(first thing I did and amazing brightness). You have direct(ProIID) or indirect(adapter plate) option (about $400-600 for plate) MF Db options, you have grips 35mm Fisheye lens, telephoto lenses.......All these are very reasonable prices. Mirror is as clunky as a draw bridge, and the weight will never be like the Leica, But, it is one super setup.
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I would add that the RZ mirror is very well damped as compared to almost every other MF reflex camera.
It sounds like you are either looking for some portability, but for price leaning for the Hass.
If going for the Hass, consider the RZ, as I like both very much, for versatility and price purposes, I can only see the RZ Pro2 meet this. The lens setup for DB's are still top notch at bargain prices below $500. The body is solid and service is available. You have a bllows option a tilt shift option, a macro, viewing glass options(first thing I did and amazing brightness). You have direct(ProIID) or indirect(adapter plate) option (about $400-600 for plate) MF Db options, you have grips 35mm Fisheye lens, telephoto lenses.......All these are very reasonable prices. Mirror is as clunky as a draw bridge, and the weight will never be like the Leica, But, it is one super setup.