Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: uaiomex on November 03, 2013, 01:19:07 pm
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What could happen if I manage to pair a Sony A7r with a 35mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-S?
This camera will inevitably be used with a vast array of lenses. At this forum and other one , I've read many times that even the best dslr wide-angle can't march the Rodie with digital backs. (hence posting here).
It's been suggested before that a digital back with a 24X36 sensor should be built for certain applications. The main gain would be having Live view and price. And as far as Sony sensors go, more DR.
Guillermo Lujik, one of my most respected Lula members suggested considering the A7r as a digital back.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83670.0
What do you think?
Eduardo
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Hi,
I checked the MTF data and they are truly excellent. That lens would excel on the Sony Alpha A7r. BUT, it would not be as good as a corresponding lens on a 36MP MF camera. On the other hand, it would induce a lot of aliasing on the theoretical 36MP MFD camera and less on the Sony A7r, due to smaller pixels.
Not sure it would fit, physically.
Best regards
Erik
What could happen if I manage to pair a Sony A7r with a 35mm Rodenstock HR Digaron-S?
This camera will inevitably be used with a vast array of lenses. At this forum and other one , I've read many times that even the best dslr wide-angle can't march the Rodie with digital backs. (hence posting here).
It's been suggested before that a digital back with a 24X36 sensor should be built for certain applications. The main gain would be having Live view and price. And as far as Sony sensors go, more DR.
Guillermo Lujik, one of my most respected Lula members suggested considering the A7r as a digital back.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83670.0
What do you think?
Eduardo
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Unless you want to tilt/shift, you might be better served by Sony own 35mm lens for the E-mount. Here, have a look at the MTF courtesy of Sony Japan website:
(http://www.sony.jp/products/picture/y_SEL35F28Z_MTF.jpg)
Everybody is getting so excited at the thought of adapting their favorite lens to that camera and neglecting the native 35mm because it is only f/2.8. They are wrong.
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Hi,
I still think that those MTF curves are not measured in white light, but calculated. To begin with, they ignore diffraction.
I have heard it is a good lens, but I am very skeptikal about Sony's MTF data.
Best regards
Erik
Unless you want to tilt/shift, you might be better served by Sony own 35mm lens for the E-mount. Here, have a look at the MTF courtesy of Sony Japan website:
(http://www.sony.jp/products/picture/y_SEL35F28Z_MTF.jpg)
Everybody is getting so excited at the thought of adapting their favorite lens to that camera and neglecting the native 35mm because it is only f/2.8. They are wrong.
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I have heard it is a good lens, but I am very skeptikal about Sony's MTF data.
Sue them, then. There is big money to be gained.
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Hi,
What aperture is used? White or monochrome light? Calculated or measured? Their MTF data seems to ignore diffraction…
Best regards
Erik
Sue them, then. There is big money to be gained.
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According to the Linos chart on this lens and the schematics, it seems there is a good inch of space between the very rear of the lens to the sensor plane. I don't know if that's enough to clear the A7r throat and to have a few degrees of tilt. without tilt, I don't se much reason to use this lens. Rodenstock states it is a f5.6 lens only and suggests using tilts for dof control.
Ok, bad idea. Let's wait for a Zeiss Otus wide-angle lens and see.
Eduardo
Hi,
I checked the MTF data and they are truly excellent. That lens would excel on the Sony Alpha A7r. BUT, it would not be as good as a corresponding lens on a 36MP MF camera. On the other hand, it would induce a lot of aliasing on the theoretical 36MP MFD camera and less on the Sony A7r, due to smaller pixels.
Not sure it would fit, physically.
Best regards
Erik
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True. The sample pictures of this lens are outstanding.
My first plan was to pair the A7r with my excellent TSEII 17 and 24 wides. The 24 is super sharp and it seems it will work fine with the Sony. Unfortunately it doesn't seem so with the 17TSE.
Canon is rumored to update the 45 and the 90 TS's for next year. I bet the 90mm would be totally spectacular.
Eduardo
Unless you want to tilt/shift, you might be better served by Sony own 35mm lens for the E-mount. Here, have a look at the MTF courtesy of Sony Japan website:
(http://www.sony.jp/products/picture/y_SEL35F28Z_MTF.jpg)
Everybody is getting so excited at the thought of adapting their favorite lens to that camera and neglecting the native 35mm because it is only f/2.8. They are wrong.
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According to the Linos chart on this lens and the schematics, it seems there is a good inch of space between the very rear of the lens to the sensor plane. I don't know if that's enough to clear the A7r throat and to have a few degrees of tilt. without tilt, I don't se much reason to use this lens. Rodenstock states it is a f5.6 lens only and suggests using tilts for dof control.
Taking this advice from Rodenstock at face value is throwing a way a LOT of practical use of this lens.
When you ask a lens manufacturer what aperture they suggest a lens be used at their answer will be based 99% on the optical quality as measured in the lab (flat subject matter, incredibly precise focus, zero user error).
In practice using this lens only at f/5.6 is ignoring the incredibly good images you can get at f/8 or f/11 or even f/16. Will an image shot at 36mp@f/5.6 be sharper in the plane of focus than the somewhat diffracted results you'll get at 35mp@f/16? Sure. But the later image will still be very sharp and contain lots of real world detail, and will also have the DOF and wiggle-room-for-misfocus that benefit real world image making. The difference in sharpness between f/5.6 and f/8 in particular is going to be exceedingly small to the point of being barely worth mentioning for most practical image making.
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Is there Sony mount version of Cambo X2 Pro or Horseman VCC Pro? I think it's going to be really great to put these new Sony cameras in studio photography use.
I know there are many people using Cambo and Horseman with D800e, and Sony's advantage is it's mirrorless.
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Cambo X2 is only currently offered in a bellows to fit Phase One/Mamiya, Nikon, and Canon.
I suppose if a manufacture like Metabones has a lens adapter like Sony plans to have for this new camera line to use other lenses, then one should be able to mount the Sony lens adapter, use a Nikon or Canon bellows from Cambo, and use any lens that you could attach to the lens offering for this system.
You can buy a Copal, Hasselblad, Mamiya M645, and Mamiya RZ67 lens board now to use with the Cambo X2.
Brain Smith had tested these and confirmed that they worked very well. Here is his links.
[url=http://www.metabones.com/sony/buy-eos-nex-adapter]
Chris Snipes
Business Development Manager
Calumet Photo
1001 N Federal Hwy
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33304
chris.snipes@calumetphoto.com
813-335-2473 Cell
(http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/)
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Thanks Chris.
I completely forgot about adapters. Actually, by buying Cambo X2 with, let's say, Nikon mount you can use Canon, Sony etc cameras via dedicated adapters.
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Cambo X2 is only currently offered in a bellows to fit Phase One/Mamiya, Nikon, and Canon.
I suppose if a manufacture like Metabones has a lens adapter like Sony plans to have for this new camera line to use other lenses, then one should be able to mount the Sony lens adapter, use a Nikon or Canon bellows from Cambo, and use any lens that you could attach to the lens offering for this system.
You can buy a Copal, Hasselblad, Mamiya M645, and Mamiya RZ67 lens board now to use with the Cambo X2.
Brain Smith had tested these and confirmed that they worked very well. Here is his links.
[url=http://www.metabones.com/sony/buy-eos-nex-adapter]
Chris Snipes
Business Development Manager
Calumet Photo
1001 N Federal Hwy
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33304
chris.snipes@calumetphoto.com
813-335-2473 Cell
(http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/)
Y'know, Mr Smith has gone and done the usual thing when testing a camera, he's headed off to somewhere near the equator where you are pretty much guaranteed strong light and bright colours. He then parades the sort of pictures that any reasonable camera should provide in such circumstances. So what! Us poor sods used to working on dull days in less forgiving latitudes want to know how cameras cope with a real challenge, but I guess the marketing guys reckon that doesn't sell the dream so we'll have to struggle on in the dark, literally.
Slightly off topic I know, but jeez, I feel better for it! ;D
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C'mon ALPA - make a mount adapter for this thing. Turn it into a baby-FPS :D
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Y'know, Mr Smith has gone and done the usual thing when testing a camera, he's headed off to somewhere near the equator where you are pretty much guaranteed strong light and bright colours. He then parades the sort of pictures that any reasonable camera should provide in such circumstances. So what! Us poor sods used to working on dull days in less forgiving latitudes want to know how cameras cope with a real challenge, but I guess the marketing guys reckon that doesn't sell the dream so we'll have to struggle on in the dark, literally.
Signs of early winter depression? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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C'mon ALPA - make a mount adapter for this thing. Turn it into a baby-FPS :D
Gerald, my immediate thought as well…..if that works I would buy one….
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So would I Dan.... so would I!
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True. The sample pictures of this lens are outstanding.
My first plan was to pair the A7r with my excellent TSEII 17 and 24 wides. The 24 is super sharp and it seems it will work fine with the Sony. Unfortunately it doesn't seem so with the 17TSE.
Canon is rumored to update the 45 and the 90 TS's for next year. I bet the 90mm would be totally spectacular.
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
from this source look like it is working pretty well on the 17TSE:
http://www.pf.nl/19555/hands-on-sony-alpha-7r-metabones-adapter-eos-lenzen/
and same here:
http://blog.nicgranleese.com/2013/10/24/sony-a7r-review-for-architectural-photographers/
not sure about the credibility of the sources, indeed. Where did you get the news about the 17TSE not very good on the A7R? As you may guess I'm very interested in this combo...
Massimo
www.massimocristaldi.com
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You can mount the A7R on an Arca Swiss M line. I don't think the wide angle lenses will work but I this Sony Nex mounted to the rig with a 72 schneider. Looked like a very cool setup. The lens was an R-mount but it can use other mounts.
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Maybe I'm missing it, but why an A7r when a d800 is only $400 and something more?
Sony tends to dabble and walk away from product lines all the time, but Nikon usually keeps a format around for a long time?
I can kind of see the A7R as a compact ff walkaround camera, but if I was adding large lenses or tilt shift mechanisms Id go all either used digital back or the d800.
What am I missing here?
IMO
BC
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Hi,
There is something called flange distance, that matters a lot. You can adapt a lot of things to mirrorless cameras, but only the Sony Alpha and Leica M (240) offer short flange distance, live view and full format at the same time.
I do agree that Sony lacks consistency in it's product line.
Best regards
Erik
Maybe I'm missing it, but why an A7r when a d800 is only $400 and something more?
Sony tends to dabble and walk away from product lines all the time, but Nikon usually keeps a format around for a long time?
I can kind of see the A7R as a compact ff walkaround camera, but if I was adding large lenses or tilt shift mechanisms Id go all either used digital back or the d800.
What am I missing here?
IMO
BC
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I guess the A7R is preferable because of the shorter flange distance compared to the D800. Though even without a mirror box, the shortest usable focal lengths on the A7R will probably be in the 60mm range. Anything shorter will probably not focus to unfinite.
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Unfortunately neither of those examples provide any in-depth detail on actual use as a tilt-shift system. In particular, the combination of lens shift, offset microlenses and raw converter can be a dealbreaker on image quality.
The only thing these links show is that the lenses physically fit on the adapter, while hinting at illumination problems.
Hi Eduardo,
from this source look like it is working pretty well on the 17TSE:
http://www.pf.nl/19555/hands-on-sony-alpha-7r-metabones-adapter-eos-lenzen/
and same here:
http://blog.nicgranleese.com/2013/10/24/sony-a7r-review-for-architectural-photographers/
not sure about the credibility of the sources, indeed. Where did you get the news about the 17TSE not very good on the A7R? As you may guess I'm very interested in this combo...
Massimo
www.massimocristaldi.com
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Hi,
I think that article on the 17/4 Canon discussed a shifted lens. Using lenses for SLRs are not problematic as those lenses have low beam tilt. Using LF lenses is more problematic, but the Rodenstock lenses are retrofocus lenses and that may be helpful. The offset microlenses may also be helpful in mitigating the problem.
I may have the impression that CMOS may be more problematic than CCD, because of deeper wells, but I may be wrong.
Best regards
Erik
Unfortunately neither of those examples provide any in-depth detail on actual use as a tilt-shift system. In particular, the combination of lens shift, offset microlenses and raw converter can be a dealbreaker on image quality.
The only thing these links show is that the lenses physically fit on the adapter, while hinting at illumination problems.
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Maybe I'm missing it, but why an A7r when a d800 is only $400 and something more?
Sony tends to dabble and walk away from product lines all the time, but Nikon usually keeps a format around for a long time?
I can kind of see the A7R as a compact ff walkaround camera, but if I was adding large lenses or tilt shift mechanisms Id go all either used digital back or the d800.
What am I missing here?
IMO
BC
It's all about the flange distance.
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Hi,
I think that article on the 17/4 Canon discussed a shifted lens. Using lenses for SLRs are not problematic as those lenses have low beam tilt. Using LF lenses is more problematic, but the Rodenstock lenses are retrofocus lenses and that may be helpful. The offset microlenses may also be helpful in mitigating the problem.
I really hope so, but, for sure, we'll need some detailed tests.
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Both were quick experiences (half hour?), shooting jpeg, and the 17mm was described as having severe light falloff. I hope I'm being overly pessimistic though, as I'd like the A7R to work with PC lenses!
I've seen aliasing artifacts using retrofocus shift lenses on a D800 with ACR/LR. It seems to me that offset microlenses are a negative when using shift, as the lens axis is no longer centered on the sensor.
Hi,
I think that article on the 17/4 Canon discussed a shifted lens. Using lenses for SLRs are not problematic as those lenses have low beam tilt. Using LF lenses is more problematic, but the Rodenstock lenses are retrofocus lenses and that may be helpful. The offset microlenses may also be helpful in mitigating the problem.
I may have the impression that CMOS may be more problematic than CCD, because of deeper wells, but I may be wrong.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi,
I would expect a 17 mm lens on full frame to have severe light fallow with shift, there is something called cosine^4 law. Retrofocus lenses beat that law. It is possible to compensate light fallof in software. I would guess that the A7r works as well as Canon 5DIII with Canon lenses, but automatic corrections may be more cumbersome.
Aliasing is not related to lens shift. Aliasing arises when lens resolution exceeds sensor resolution.
I would expect the Sony A7 to be like a Nikon D800/D800E in most cases.
Best regards
Erik
Both were quick experiences (half hour?), shooting jpeg, and the 17mm was described as having severe light falloff. I hope I'm being overly pessimistic though, as I'd like the A7R to work with PC lenses!
I've seen aliasing artifacts using retrofocus shift lenses on a D800 with ACR/LR. It seems to me that offset microlenses are a negative when using shift, as the lens axis is no longer centered on the sensor.
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Hi Massimo:
I quote this from Nic Granleese addressed to me in his blog:
"
Hi Eduardo,
The Canon 24mm TSE ii physically / shifts fine with the A7r. The images above showing full shift up and down are of the 24mm lens. You will have to watch where you place your tripod plate though. I had to put mine on backwards. As for the electronics of the lens like aperture, that all appeared to work well and because the lens is manual focus that wasn’t an issue. For lenses with autofocus though you may have some issues with focus speed.
As for vignetting, the 17mm had obvious corner shadows, but the 24mm looked ok at a glance. More tests needed there though.
I just checked the meta data on the jpeg from the A7r and info like aperture, and focal length have been saved correctly, but the model of the lens hasn’t shown up. So apart from that it looks like the Canon 24 and 17 TSE lenses are going to work just fine. I can’t comment on the image quality yet as I wasn’t able to take enough photos, but I have asked Sony if I can borrow the A7r for a full shoot and a more in depth review."
End of quote.
Maybe I am misunderstanding his words. Spanish is my native language, not english.
I'm very excited about this camera for shooting landscape, architecture and product. My 6D for everything else.
Regards
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
from this source look like it is working pretty well on the 17TSE:
http://www.pf.nl/19555/hands-on-sony-alpha-7r-metabones-adapter-eos-lenzen/
and same here:
http://blog.nicgranleese.com/2013/10/24/sony-a7r-review-for-architectural-photographers/
not sure about the credibility of the sources, indeed. Where did you get the news about the 17TSE not very good on the A7R? As you may guess I'm very interested in this combo...
Massimo
www.massimocristaldi.com
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Hi BC:
It is about the proximity of the sensor to the lens mount. It opens (imho) some interesting possibilities to use the A7r as an "alternative" camera. Tinkering with gear has been a great deal of fun for many photographers since the invention of the art.
I imagine Sony making this camera but with a much bigger throat. It will turn it in to a universal mount camera. Sort of a baby digital back.
I wish Sony would get greedy and more adventurous to release this sensor in a digital back fashion with adapters for all sort of technical cameras and dslr lenses with a big fully articulated 4" LCD screen.
I bet that in no time Rodenstock would come with HR glass optimized for 24X36 with some movements.
I would gladly pay for this contraption 2 or 3 times the price of an A7r. Once in a while dreams come true. The A7r may actually be the camera we, TSE lovers been dreaming of for the last 3 years.
Eduardo
Maybe I'm missing it, but why an A7r when a d800 is only $400 and something more?
Sony tends to dabble and walk away from product lines all the time, but Nikon usually keeps a format around for a long time?
I can kind of see the A7R as a compact ff walkaround camera, but if I was adding large lenses or tilt shift mechanisms Id go all either used digital back or the d800.
What am I missing here?
IMO
BC
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that would be amazing Eduardo! an open system like that would be so welcome.
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Thanks Phil. I believe so.
Sony is relatively new in this arena. They have less to lose, so they can gamble further to solidly position themselves at the top. If someone has started designing and manufacturing real digital cameras from scratch is Sony. They just need to push the envelope.
With very few exceptions, all other cameras in the market are just plain analog legacies. Nothing wrong with that but it is about time we see the full potential of digital cameras.
Go Sony!
Eduardo
that would be amazing Eduardo! an open system like that would be so welcome.
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I agree Sony so far is the one showing more of what maybe possible, while for the most part Nikon gains the useful byproduct of their "testing".
Canon I think is doing something interesting by going with sensors larger than 35mm, although this is a bit of a rumor, so not sure if that will be soon or later? I thought by now they would answer to the D800. But these are all incremental closed platform "business as usual" approaches. Ricoh had an interesting appraoch with the interchangable cartridge style, but overall it is limited when you comapre it with other top DSLRs. A7R looks like a great start of something bigger. I hope the innovation trend snowballs.
Everyone is playing it incrementally safe. I wish Sigma would get off their rears and do something drastic with that Foveon chip, license it out to someone with lots of resources to push that chip as far as it can go. It requires no AA filter, no moire issues, more pure color without guessing, and all its doing is sitting in a limited body. Too bad.