Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Mike Guilbault on October 30, 2013, 11:07:57 pm
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I've done a few mirrored edge gallery wraps but trying to improve the edges on the wrap during the stretch. Sometimes they're a little off and I need to re-stretch. Part of the problem seems to be the stretchability of the canvas. I'm using BC Lyve. Do you find it stretches more than other canvas? Any little tricks to getting the mirrored edge right on the edge of the wrap?
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I've done a few mirrored edge gallery wraps but trying to improve the edges on the wrap during the stretch. Sometimes they're a little off and I need to re-stretch. Part of the problem seems to be the stretchability of the canvas. I'm using BC Lyve. Do you find it stretches more than other canvas? Any little tricks to getting the mirrored edge right on the edge of the wrap?
You'll see some good responses at: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=72081.0
When I posted that, I was embedding the extra whitespace I want for stretching in the file, then have a 1px black line that I carefully cut off, evenly. That way, I can center the frame until the measurements are the same on opposing sides. I often have the first edge I'm going to staple have about 1/8" extra, to account for that it's going to stretch.
I'm still doing that. It's still driving me nuts.
I haven't tried Peter/neile's dressmaking pins idea. Can't believe I wouldn't see them after, but really should try it because they both swear it works.
I'm seriously considering building a large light table for this purpose, to instantly be able to see the edge from the back of the canvas when matching up the frame. Really liked bill's older method. They're expensive when large, hence the considering building it part. Hopefully a winter project.
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I've watched a framer friend of mine use the pins. Seems to work well. I'm more concerned though about what happens during the actual stretching phase. Since I'm stretching by hand (BC Stretch Relief pliers), it a little more difficult to get a consistent stretch all the way around the canvas and one edge may stretch more than the other bringing the transition off the edge. I guess I just need to work on my technique more. I heard somewhere that 'practice makes perfect' ;)
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Mike:
Instead of using "mirrored" edges, I use intelligent fill. If there is a "hard" demarcation, I soften that with the clone tool.
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I have used that as well and usually do… but sometimes that won't work depending on the image. I've used a combination of both as well.
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Mike:
Instead of using "mirrored" edges, I use intelligent fill. If there is a "hard" demarcation, I soften that with the clone tool.
But what if your client has requested a mirror wrap?
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The real trick here is twofold. Custom strainer frames (to the sixteenth of an inch) and don't "stretch" your canvas merely make it "taut." The later is more easily accomplished using an over laminate (as applied by heat press or roller press) rather than a liquid process. I struggled with exactly the same problem until the day the vacuum press arrived. Different canvases have different compositions. Some are 100% cotton, some are 100% poly and some fall somewhere between. Take, for example, a 50-50 blend where the weft is cotton blend and the warp is poly. It will "stretch" in one direction and "become taut" in the other, if you follow me. The over laminate all but eliminates issues with cracking at the edges and further serves to mitigate sagging over time. My gallery wraps are drum tight and the mirrors line up perfectly, consistently. - Jim
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Afraid I don't have the room (or budget) for a vacuum press. Back to the practice thing.
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I have a favorite large piece that is about 60 x 38 and it has a mirrored edge that creates chevrons at the edges. When it is stretched perfectly, it rocks. When it's off, it is noticeable and not great. Getting it perfect is a real problem. It requires 4-6 times on and off the stretcher to get it right, no matter how good one is. I couldn't use an overlaminate (not saying that is not good) because I'm really fussy about the finish. Getting difficult canvases stretched just right is an art itself and requires more than experience, patience, and fortitude.
As Mark Twain put it: "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way..."
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I couldn't use an overlaminate (not saying that is not good) because I'm really fussy about the finish. Getting difficult canvases stretched just right is an art itself and requires more than experience, patience, and fortitude.
Just curious, Mark, what is it about the finish of the over laminate that you don't like? - Jim
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Mike:
Instead of using "mirrored" edges, I use intelligent fill. If there is a "hard" demarcation, I soften that with the clone tool.
Right, there are more ways to get it done. The image content usually dictates what is not the right wrap, usually some solutions remain. A blur on the wrap + edge (selection feathered) helps too.
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/six-canvas-wrap-actions.htm
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Just curious, Mark, what is it about the finish of the over laminate that you don't like? - Jim
Jim,
Your mileage may vary, but my experience with laminates over coatings is that they tend to either muddy or change the image (like too muddy or too glossy, etc.). I like as little between the actual image and the viewer as possible. I have not yet seen an overlaminate that I found was comparable to the quality of what we can achieve or have had done in the way of carefully applied coating such as Glamour Gloss or Timeless, or others. Granted, my exposure to the very best of the best of overlaminates may be limited, but that's my reason and my thinking. I guess there would be an arguement: "what about face mounting"? (Being the ultimate "overlaminate). Again, FWIW / YMMV - just my personal preference. - Mark
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Your mileage may vary, but my experience with laminates over coatings is that they tend to either muddy or change the image (like too muddy or too glossy, etc.)
Hi Mark. Guess we've "borrowed" Mike's thread! Just a quick story to let you know how I arrived where I am with my canvas gallery wrapped prints. I print solely for professional photographers that go from show to show selling their prints. When I first started coating I tried Clear-Shield which was expensive and inconsistent. So then I tried a coating designed for floors which cracked. Then I moved on to Glamour II (no UV protection) and Timeless. Results with these products was decidedly better but I still was frustrated waiting for the initial out-gassing of the print and the drying time of the coating. Large orders took up soooo much real estate plus I can't tell you how many prints were ruined due to the introduction of hair, dirt, dust, bubbles and pinholes, cracking and dings. This obviously caused delays in completing clients orders. Using the press with the over laminate has solved all of those problems. Immediately after the print comes off the printer it goes into the press. Now, large orders just get stacked in a pile until I can stretch them.
As to the quality of the laminate - I like it, my clients like it and their customers like it. Many of these prints ride around from show to show in the back of a truck so they need to be rugged and washable. The laminate affords this better than the liquid products do. I'd be happy to send you a sample so you can make your own comparisons, just PM me. - Jim
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No worries on the hijack Jim... all good information!
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As to the quality of the laminate - I like it, my clients like it and their customers like it. Many of these prints ride around from show to show in the back of a truck so they need to be rugged and washable. The laminate affords this better than the liquid products do. I'd be happy to send you a sample so you can make your own comparisons, just PM me. - Jim
I understand your points Jim, and I would be interested in seeing a sample. One of the times I saw a sample of an over-laminate was a fellow photographer who was just thrilled about having created a new concept for portfolios, whereby the portfolio was over-laminated and would withstand much abuse and could be carried in a briefcase-like container. The prints had a kind of flocking on the backs, and the fronts were strongly over-coated, and looked muddy muddy muddy, thick translucent. He was so proud of them and was attempting to sell a "revolutionary new product" but they looked like restaurant place-mats to those of us doing careful prints. This is an extreme example and resides at the far end of the over-laminating spectrum, but I always think that the compromises which do in fact offer a great deal of protection do cause the aesthetics to suffer equally proportionately. Again, I will take you up on your offer, as I have once before with someone who also sang the praises of laminates, but honestly, it would have to be some kind of miracle for me to "convert" (or resort) to that approach. Again, really, please, no offense meant, it's just my personal preference, and I'm glad you have found something that works for you. I'll PM you for a sample if your offer is still good after showing my teeth a little, LOL.
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I use mirror edging for about 90% of my wraps. Especially for a professional photographers prints. I mean, to cut off 1.5" of the original image to create a true gallery wrap just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you have a long dress or faces towards the edge of the photo. I use Perfect Resize Pro with Photoshop to make my extra 1.5" edged sides automatically. When I choose mirror I choose to Add To New Layer so I can play with the edges as I like. If there's faces or body parts towards the sides of the image I hate to see a full mirror of someones arm going in the other direction (or head of someone flipped to wrap over the top edge). So I'll blur the edges a little and then lower opacity some to kind of make it looks transparent. Then I size up the image about an extra .12 to .20" to give me some wiggle room. I don't worry about lining up perfect with the edges. I let the edge of the photo kind of wrap to the side and worry about lining that up as much as possible. It's a lot more forgiving to have a tiny misalignment on the side than on the edging. Of course I've asked all my clients when they buy their first print about this method and if they prefer another and they are all ok with it so I won't try to fix what isn't broken. Since I use the Pitbull Stretcher (now BC's Stretch Relief) pliers which pulls pretty hard, I'll line up one of the sides with a little more of the edge coming around and staple that side first. Then when I flip to stretch other side, I grab with tool and give a tight pull while holding the canvas up at an angle from the table surface so I can actually see the edge come across the side and judge from there how much to pull. If I did this while trying to match every edge perfectly I'd go crazy. I'll send pics of the process if ya wanna see my method.
About the heat press, does this give it a shiny look? I have one or two clients saying they want less shine (but if I spray less Clearshield Satin) then it's more susceptible to scuffs. I guess I'm going to try the Matte coating. I notice when I give 2 coats of nice amount of spray it protects real nice but shines more. Is the heat press a shiny finish?
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@Mark - I agree with you 100% about the thick, plasticky, placemat-looking product. Definitely not a solution for me. As I said earlier I print only on canvas and find that it actually works for that application. I'd love to send you a sample just to see what you think, PM me.
@rgvsdigitlpimp - All of my clients want the look of canvas. They want to see the weave and texture. We believe that there is a place for gloss in the art world - just not on canvas. So all of my pieces are a satin/matte finish which has just a light sheen to it but not enough to be an issue for viewing at an angle. - Jim
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JF, what heat press do you currently use?
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I bought a used Bienfang 4468H which is the same as Seal or VacuSeal.
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Here is a Pro Seal 44 on ebay-360732315700- how well would it work for laminating canvas prints?
Mike
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As I understand it, Mike (Sellers), these work well with the correct film. I have never used one so I can't speak from experience. - Jim
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From what I've seen online as far as videos and instructions goes, it seems to me as if the laminator system kind of heats the laminate over the canvas and the heat press actually vacuums the laminate into the canvas. So this would allow the weave and texture to stay while sealing with a laminate. I may be wrong, though.
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The laminator that Mike is referring to is a roll laminator (see attached photo I pulled from the web) as opposed to the vacuum press style that I have. The roll style is nice because it takes up less real estate and you can do very long panos whereas my print size is limited to the size of the press. You're right though, it's all about the heat and pressure to maintain the texture of the canvas. - Jim
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Mike -
If my canvas stretched that much, I would find another because as another said, what if the customer wants reflected borders.
Assuming however you don't want that answer so, I would adjust the image down 1/8 or 1/16 of an inch on each side to allow for "stretch" and buy keyed bars. I have been perfecting my stretching and have found I can hand stretch and then use the keys to "expand" and get a very tight drum fit. And NO expensive pliers are needed.
And while I know you invested already in a stapler, I'm pretty sure the reason you must have had to bang in the staples in past was again due to the bars.
If you buy Upper Canada stretcher bars made of clear pine - they are softer (but sturdier) than bass wood, and having read a few other posts on other sites from other people, I'm convinced this is the reason I don't have to use anything but a manual stapler. The staples just go in easily the first time. The basic bars are tongue and grooved - these ones fit nicely however to prevent the key from puncturing through I staple both sides twice on each corner once I have it squared.
Same for the larger (deeper) bars of 1.5". I stretched a 60" pano with ease using these bars.
I have like you found practice makes perfect, but how you start out is I think how you end up. My canvas of choice does not contain lyrca which I believe you or another here has said is in Lyve.
I don't know how you would use pins without leaving a tiny hole in the canvas - but perhaps someone knows something I don't.
Good luck
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I'll send pics of the process if ya wanna see my method.
I'm also using the BC Stretch Relief players, so yes please... I'd love to see some pics of the process!
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Bullfrog... The only problem I have with the keyed stretchers is that you can't judge what the final dimensions will be, thus if you have a particular frame you want to use, it's difficult to get the dimension of the canvas just right. I suppose for gallery wraps a 1/16 or 1/8" isn't going to matter much though.
But that does lead me to another problem I'm having and maybe the keyed stretchers are the answer. I have a couple of canvases that have been stretched 'drum tight' with the Stretch Relief pliers, but have since become less tight - almost sagging (but not noticeable on display). I think the extra stretch I've been experiencing when pulling the canvas may be stretching the canvas too much and after a while it settles in the stretch and loses it's tightness.
Which Upper Canada Stretchers do you use? They have so many.
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Bullfrog... The only problem I have with the keyed stretchers is that you can't judge what the final dimensions will be, thus if you have a particular frame you want to use, it's difficult to get the dimension of the canvas just right. I suppose for gallery wraps a 1/16 or 1/8" isn't going to matter much though.
But that does lead me to another problem I'm having and maybe the keyed stretchers are the answer. I have a couple of canvases that have been stretched 'drum tight' with the Stretch Relief pliers, but have since become less tight - almost sagging (but not noticeable on display). I think the extra stretch I've been experiencing when pulling the canvas may be stretching the canvas too much and after a while it settles in the stretch and loses it's tightness.
Which Upper Canada Stretchers do you use? They have so many.
Mike - maybe its my ignorance, but I just don't understand what you mean that "it's difficult to get the dimension of the canvas just right"". I order a bar to the exact size I want, and that is what I get. His stuff is very precise. When you assemble the bars - I measure on the diagonal before stapling the corners to ensure its square and will allow 1/16 variance (sometimes 1/8")- but that is a problem with any bar.
Yes, all canvas sags - I just don't see how it wouldn't over time and its the reason I've decided against using paper to cover the back. I use linen tape on the back to make a neat seam and only apply kraft paper if I'm using a frame (floating or traditional). If a person insists on having it covered with paper unframed, I will, but then ripping that paper off is going to make a heck of a mess and it is not what I recommend.
My "stupid" mistake in stretching mine was not double stapling the corners on both sides (I turn it over and do the reverse side as well) once I had the bars squared. That and the possibility that the key provided was not perfectly cut - but anyway, I've now become a micro manager and measure my keys before tapping in to ensure they are not less than 5/8" of an inch - another task to add to the checklist ::)
It has definitely taken me time to get wrapping done right and I admit to a learning curve but having those keys really has made a difference. You can "adjust" each corner to the degree you need. Any canvas over 36" wide requires a middle strut which he also provides keys for -and his workmanship is excellent.
Here's the company I'm referring to.
http://www.ucsart.com/
I look forward to the video - because while I feel I have finally ironed the kinks out of my process, I have learned a lot here just by watching what others do and can always benefit from new information.
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It may actually be my ignorance - but what I'm referring to is when the keys are 'knocked in' to expand the stretchers, doesn't the dimension of the canvas (the face of the canvas) change - get bigger? It may not be enough to worry about - I don't know.
When you say stapling the corners on each side, are you referring to stapling the wooden bars at the joints - and on both the front and back? And what are you measuring on the keys?
This is all very interesting - to me at least - not so much my wife! ;)
And yes, I know of UCS. I actually live about two hours away from them and used to live in Owen Sound myself many years ago.
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It may actually be my ignorance - but what I'm referring to is when the keys are 'knocked in' to expand the stretchers, doesn't the dimension of the canvas (the face of the canvas) change - get bigger? It may not be enough to worry about - I don't know.
When you say stapling the corners on each side, are you referring to stapling the wooden bars at the joints - and on both the front and back? And what are you measuring on the keys?
This is all very interesting - to me at least - not so much my wife! ;)
And yes, I know of UCS. I actually live about two hours away from them and used to live in Owen Sound myself many years ago.
Yeah, pretty dry stuff isn't it. (The life of a photographer )
Anyway, No, the dimension of the actual canvas does not change because you fix the bars with staples to keep everything from moving.
So Yes, when you assemble the bars, you must staple the actual bars at each corner. The "Basic" bar is 7/8" deep and this bar is tongue and groove fitted, however, the pressure of stretching will actually shift the bars so its essential to staple them before you wrap a canvas around them..
The larger gallery bars (1.5 inches deep) are not tongue and groove - they are mitered corners , so they absolutely required stapling to hold them together.
You can buy tongue and groove 1.5 inch deep bars - but they are very expensive (because it increases the amount of wood and thickness of the bar ) - I don't . Its not necessary for the giclee - since the art is not really heavy (not like an artist canvas that may have a great deal of pigment splashed on it)
My mistake was using the tongue and groove and not stapling both sides (ie staple the corners on the front and turn it over and do the same thing on the back). This resulted in the key actually being able to perforate the canvas because the bars were not secured tightly.
So, given that, the dimensions of the finished canvas are very precise - and accepting you square the bars properly before stapling, the final dimension is fixed.
The keys "expand" and create tension. It essentially allows me to hand stretch , although I have found using a basic stretcher pliers makes it a bit easier, I bought from UCS - it was about $20 I think.
What I'm measuring on the key is the "pointy" end - the key is a kind of wedge shape and the smallest end fits into the bar. The problem I've had once or twice is they cut the key less than 5/8" at the smallest end - and if this happens, the key will perforate the canvas . Not good - however, I should state, that his quality is very good.
For me, having a bar that won't warp, and will adjust with keys is a real advantage. I add a dab of glue to the key AFTER I insert it to keep it from falling out, and if and when the canvas needs to be re-tensioned, the key can be easily tapped loose.
His middle "struts" are also keyed which on a long pano for example, really makes it drum tight.
I admit that if people want cheap canvas, then all of this seems over kill and I suppose its price point that decides what quality of bar you use.
To summarize my long narrative:
- first you assemble the bars
- then you measure diagonal (both ways) to ensure they are square
- then staple twice each corner on one side - flip it over and repeat on the other
- add the strut if required (no stapling here - it simply slides in)
- wrap the canvas
- pre-measure the short end of the key to ensure it is not less than 5/8"
- insert the keys into each corner and if applicable strut - lightly tap to create sufficient tension
- add a tiny dab of glue to the key at the shoulder to prevent it from falling out
Le voila!
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I'm not sure I understand something about "stapling the corners" of the stretcher bars. I can see how it would keep the corners square, but if you staple them it seems it wouldn't allow expansion when you put in the keys. I haven't used keys so maybe I've got this conceptually wrong.
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I'm not sure I understand something about "stapling the corners" of the stretcher bars.
Check out this link (http://www.ucsart.com/catalog/15) and watch the video. All will become clear at about 1:20 or so. I am not a proponent of this method but it may be a solution for some people.
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I'm not sure I understand something about "stapling the corners" of the stretcher bars. I can see how it would keep the corners square, but if you staple them it seems it wouldn't allow expansion when you put in the keys. I haven't used keys so maybe I've got this conceptually wrong.
OK. I am guilty sometimes of providing more detail than necessary - so let me simplify.
The bars are shipped to you in pieces. Unless you have magic fairy dust or are a master in psychokinesis, you have to staple them to hold them together.
SOME bars are tongue and groove - which means you can assemble without hardware - but the moment you pick them up - they warp, jigsaw, or basically turn to mush- so again, without that fairy dust, its staple staple staple!
This has NO impact on the use of keys which are inserted in little "pockets" within the corners of the bars.
PS: ( I just finished watching 5 seasons of Fringe on Netflix, if you haven't seen it, the humor in this post will be lost on you)
Cheers
:D
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I've done a few mirrored edge gallery wraps but trying to improve the edges on the wrap during the stretch. Sometimes they're a little off and I need to re-stretch. Part of the problem seems to be the stretchability of the canvas. I'm using BC Lyve. Do you find it stretches more than other canvas? Any little tricks to getting the mirrored edge right on the edge of the wrap?
I don't print on Lyve anymore but I did for a few years. I sprayed with Timeless (mostly Satin) and found that the canvas would shrink in the direction of the roll feed and I'd have to stretch the image in PS to 101.5% to get the image to be the proper size for canvas to stretch exactly. I don't know why but when I switched to the Canon those issues went away and I don't have to stretch the image anymore.
I order my bars in lengths and I cut and join them to the finished size of the canvas exactly. If I have an image that is very critical to line up with the edges of the frame, I'll still hand stretch. I just line up one edge staple all the way across and then slowly stretch the other side starting from the middle and checking that the image lines up as I staple.
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Here are the images of the beginning process for me. This allows me to line up perfectly with the help of the Pitbull Stretcher Tool. I have about 25 images of the whole process if anyone wants to see them. For now here's the limit (4 images) to show how I align for mirrored edges. Place frame above image. Flip over corner edges and mark with a marker. Do all 4 corners then flip over and align frame with marker points.
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After stretching and selling about 1,500 canvases I'm convinced that the process is as much of an art as a science. I still pick up new ideas on the net about once every few months.
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I don't print on Lyve anymore but I did for a few years. I sprayed with Timeless (mostly Satin) and found that the canvas would shrink in the direction of the roll feed and I'd have to stretch the image in PS to 101.5% to get the image to be the proper size for canvas to stretch exactly. I don't know why but when I switched to the Canon those issues went away and I don't have to stretch the image anymore.
I order my bars in lengths and I cut and join them to the finished size of the canvas exactly. If I have an image that is very critical to line up with the edges of the frame, I'll still hand stretch. I just line up one edge staple all the way across and then slowly stretch the other side starting from the middle and checking that the image lines up as I staple.
Hey Luca! I had the same shrinkage problem when i started with Lyve and contacted BC about it. They sent me a new profile and it fixed the problem. My canvases are coming out exactly to the measurement.
I just got in some Gallery bars from Upper Canada Stretchers and will try those. They look pretty good and I like the fact that they're keyed. Putting together half a dozen in the next couple days.
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To mark the corners, I hold up the canvas to a light with the image facing the light and then mark the corners with a pencil, tracing the corner from behind. Works great and very fast. Flip the canvas over and lay the stretcher against the corner marks.
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Responding to Mike Sellars
That one works well with Seals Print Guard Matte and Luster.
Use the middle heat setting and run it slow.
The luster looks fantastic but the matte is way to milky for my taste.
If it is the same machine I looked at on EBay (located Ben Salem,Pa.) they had a piece of tape in the center of the roll.
If it is covering a cut on that main roller I would not touch it. Also the buy it price was way too high.
I got my ultra on EBay for $2500,so good deals are out there.
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Hi Dan,
Thanks for the info. Have you tried the Jet Guard Deep Crystal?
Mike
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Responding to Mike Sellars
That one works well with Seals Print Guard Matte and Luster.
Use the middle heat setting and run it slow.
The luster looks fantastic but the matte is way to milky for my taste.
If it is the same machine I looked at on EBay (located Ben Salem,Pa.) they had a piece of tape in the center of the roll.
If it is covering a cut on that main roller I would not touch it. Also the buy it price was way too high.
I got my ultra on EBay for $2500,so good deals are out there.
Hi Dan-
After reading your replies regarding film laminating, I fired up my roller press and ran a couple tests.
First test was with Drytac 5mil luster heat assist film
Press settings:
60 lb pressure
speed 2 ft/min
220 degrees top roller
Results:
Lots of white adhesive showing in black areas of the print.
I rotated 90 degrees, reran at 1ft/min, still had visible unattached adhesive.
Adhesion to high spots of canvas was good, pulled the ink off the media when I tested it.
Did a second try with 3mil laminate,
Press settings:
70lbs pressure
1 ft/min
220 degrees top roller
Similar (but better) results.
Any guidance on how to improve?
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Marc,
Have never used Drytacs products.
The Seal print guard works well.
I have only seen one minor problem with blacks.
The seal adhesive when melted May be a little clearer then the Drytac.
See if someone will send you a sample roll of the Print Guard.
Lex jet sells it but I purchased mine from KFI in NJ.
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Thanks Dan-
What thickness would you recommend?
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Print Guard luster is 3 mil.
The ultra matte is 4mil. But really milky.
The 3mil is the perfect thickness for stretching.
The stuff is so tuff you will never again worry about scuffing corners.
Another plus is the canvas stretches and stays tighter.
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Hi Dan,
Thanks for the info. Have you tried the Jet Guard Deep Crystal?
Mike
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Hey Dan will any of these used budget laminators work for mounting and for laminating canvas as well? Can I use Print Guard luster is 3 mil on any of these?
http://mcallen.en.craigslist.org/bfs/4194132149.html
I really want a heat laminator to start doing this but just can't afford anything in the $1K + range.