Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: felix5616 on September 07, 2013, 06:13:30 pm
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Looking for some suggestions for smooth, heavyweight, no optical brightener matte paper with wide color gamut and high black density.
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Looking for some suggestions for smooth, heavyweight, no optical brightener matte paper with wide color gamut and high black density.
Well if you could relax the "no optical brightener" requirement, the Breathing Color Optica one paper is pretty special.
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Ditto for the OBA's - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin - as it states in the description, unprinted areas have a matte appearance, otherwise, it has an extremely wide gamut, very deep blacks, excellent reproduction of detail and is archival. At this link (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/prod/us/461/587/photo-rag-satin-310-gsm.html) on Hahnemuhle's website.
Tony
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Ditto for the OBA's - Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin - as it states in the description, unprinted areas have a matte appearance, otherwise, it has an extremely wide gamut, very deep blacks, excellent reproduction of detail and is archival. At this link (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/prod/us/461/587/photo-rag-satin-310-gsm.html) on Hahnemuhle's website.
Tony
Unlike the Optica One, the OBAs in HN Satin Rag are minimal and confined to the paper core, not the coating. So, Lightfade resistance and media white point stability is quite good. Additionally, HN photo rag Satin does have truly unique differential gloss properties with pigment inks (i.e, higher gloss in heavy ink areas, less in low ink areas and thus no odd differential gloss "holes" seen from highlight to pure white transitions which typically happens with pigmented inks on glossier papers). That said, I just bought my first 17x22 inch 25 sheet box of Satin rag after being intrigued with some sample prints I had seen first hand, and I really really want to like this paper. Unfortunately, the batch I received is exhibiting a subtle yet noticeable image mottle with my Canon Lucia EX inks that I hadn't seen in the samples (the samples had been made with HP Vivera pigments). Not sure if it's an ink compatibility issue or just a bad batch, but I'm out a good chunk of change with unexpected results and not too happy about that. I'm also not sure if I want to gamble on buying another batch to determine if my first batch was just a bad batch rather than a consistent problem with the Lucia inks. The issue is subtle enough that I'm not sure my dealer would agree with me that there's a problem... but there is a problem as far as I'm concerned. Not enough hours in the day to run down every ink jet printing problem. Some times one just has to cut losses and move on.
best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Papers I've used:
Using matte black ink: Epson Hot Press Natural - excellent dMax and gamut. Nice, bright, warm white point. My mainstay for art repros (mostly watercolours) and matte photographic work.
photo black ink: Innova IFA19 Warmtone gloss (it's very low gloss, more of a soft satin, so might fit your matte requirement)
papers that fit, that I wouldn't mind trying:
Hahnemuhle Museum Etching - tested one sheet long ago on a 9800 running Imageprint - loved it.
Hahnemuhle Photorag Natural White (can't find it on their website now, but have seen it on my local pricelist - might be discontinued)
Breathing Colour Pura
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Papers I've used:
Using matte black ink: Epson Hot Press Natural - excellent dMax and gamut. Nice, bright, warm white point. My mainstay for art repros (mostly watercolours) and matte photographic work.
photo black ink: Innova IFA19 Warmtone gloss (it's very low gloss, more of a soft satin, so might fit your matte requirement)
papers that fit, that I wouldn't mind trying:
Hahnemuhle Museum Etching - tested one sheet long ago on a 9800 running Imageprint - loved it.
Hahnemuhle Photorag Natural White (can't find it on their website now, but have seen it on my local pricelist - might be discontinued)
Breathing Colour Pura
All papers mentioned below are for the matte black ink so Dmax will stay below or is equal to 1.8.
The Epson Hot Press Natural and the three other ones (CP, HP) of that range are not in my stock of papers but at least the two that contain OBA are interesting too as they seem to have a longevity not met by other matte papers with OBA content. See Aardenburg-Imaging tests. There is an interesting effect that when (carbon) B&W is printed on the Hot Press qualities (and Premier Art Smooth BW) the Lab b value is more constant through the tone range than with other papers with or without OBA content. Paul Roark observed that and my theory is that the OBA for one reason or another does not loose its effect where heavier (and usually warmer) black ink covers the paper. That should imply OBA on the top of the paper and possibly staying on top. Much in contradiction with the theory that OBAs should be throughout the paper to keep some longevity. I can see the OBA on top in the Premier paper spectral plot but the Epson paper samples HP + CP that I measured are dual sided so the plots do not show it.
Both Hahnemühle qualities described above are excellent with my HP Z printers, my guess is that the PR natural White is just the neutral plain Photorag. Never heard of a Natural White one while there is a PR Bright White of which the OBAs do not stand time. The Photorag 310 gsm is still my main matte photo paper.
The textured HM Museum Etching (Cotton) has far less issues with the coating than for example German Etching (Alpha Cellulose) and it has no OBA content. I have to decurl the leading edge of that 350 gsm paper before feeding a Z with it, and keep the cutter off till all the images are printed. Otherwise the head carriage touches the paper too often on the leading edges. Very nice paper. Canson Inf. BFK Rives 310 gsm is a good alternative too, with the Z3200 an equally good print can be made. Slightly higher white reflection and a bit more neutral.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Breathing Color's new Pura Smooth is basically the same as their Optica One, without OBAs.
I'd use the Pura.
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Canson Rag Photographique 310 is my choice for a smooth rag paper - I much prefer it over Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308. I really like Canson Rives BFK, but it is difficult to justify the price differential to customers.
I don't think I would call Hahnemühle Photo Rag Satin a matte paper, even in the unprinted areas.
Brian A
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Felix, where you from?
In Europe there is "MediaJet Museum Natural Rag" the paper you are searching for.
No OBA´s, smooth, heavyweight (260gsm but feels like 310) with wide color gamut and high black density.
Wilhelm Test is running, atm 48years under glass.
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I prefer matt papers with a little texture, my favourites are
HFA Museum Etching
Epson Cold press Natural
Going for smoother
HFA PhotoRag 308g (Not sure about OBA's)
Canson BFK Rives (Not really got to know this yet)
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Looking for some suggestions for smooth, heavyweight, no optical brightener matte paper with wide color gamut and high black density.
Epson Hot Pres Natural and Canson Rag Photographique fulfill your criteria. The Epson a warmer base, the Canson more neutral.
Tyler
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Don't forget Innova Smooth Cotton Natural White. Great paper.
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I'm liking Epson Hotpress Natural... It nicely picks up subtle color using my 3880.
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HM Rag Satin for me. I've been using it for 5 years or so and it's still one of my favourite paper. The shadow areas are crap when using the canned profile tho so I suggest building a custom profile.
HM White etching satin is similar to the Photorag Satin but with a slightly different texture and I suspect as with german etching, it uses alpha cellulose instead of cotton. It's a wonderful paper too but too bad HM ended the line a while back I think.
Optica One by BC is a good choice for a pure no-frills matte paper but the curl is horrible.
If OBA isnt an issue I'd recommend HM Rag BrightWhite.
Texture wise HM German/Museum etching are wonderful, especially if you want to include deckled edges to the print.
I print mostly on the epson 11880.
I did some tests on the Pixma pro-1 and pro-10 and the inks do indeed have issues with matte papers of all makes, especially the blacks. They know of the issue (since forever) and are working to rectify.
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Canson Rag Photographique is a good bet, but surprisingly, I think Hahnemühle Bamboo, while slightly warmer, also is a gorgeous paper and worth a look.
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I agree Bamboo is lovely, and fit's the OP's criteria..
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The innova ifa11 is one of my favorites, cotton rag base, no oba, quite smooth, heavy, customers love it. I use an epson 4900, and make my own profiles. The ifa24 is less heavy, alpha-cellulose, with a light texture, a tad more white if noticable, and somewhat bigger gamut.
They have several others, some quite heavy if that is required.
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I've been using Museo Portfolio rag for years - never thought of looking elsewhere - it pushes all my buttons.
Bob.
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I've been using Museo Portfolio rag for years - never thought of looking elsewhere - it pushes all my buttons.
Bob.
Museo Portfolio Rag produces the most gorgeous B&W prints with deep velvety blacks, and it is my top choice for that purpose. I have seen very lovely color prints on it as well. However, some people around LuLa are down on MPR, because it has not fared well in light fade tests. That may be so, but I expect that the prints will outlast me by quite a few years, so I regard light fading as a non-issue.
Rob
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Canson Rag Photographique 310 is my choice for a smooth rag paper - I much prefer it over Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308. I really like Canson Rives BFK, but it is difficult to justify the price differential to customers.
Brian A
Agree completely. This is a beautiful paper and it works well with my Canon PRO 100. It's harder to find a matte for a dye printer.
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Hello,
I have intensely tried some of the papers above mentioned during my long B&W linearization development test
(I will update soon the related thread with the latest evolutions),
so I like to add just my little contribute to this argument humbly based on my own experience (and tastes).
Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Satin 310 is a very particular media.
As Ernst and Mark have already said, it is not OBA free but it is not too much OBA loaded.
The surface is not smooth at all, coupled with the semi-matte finish reflections and their strong gloss differential this could easily be disturbing and compromise the potential good black density of the paper. I have used it with Matte Black.
In addition this paper is a nightmare to linearize in the blacks, probably due to their unique finish, it was one of the most irregular I have seen.
The canned profile crushes the black a little bit (at least with my Epson R3000).
If you like heavy contrast prints this could not be a big concern, maybe,
but in that case the gloss differential between white zones and black could be not so pleasant and this aspect is to keep under consideration.
For these reasons I strongly recommend you to try a sample pack before buying a full box.
Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308 is an average smooth paper, with decent overall density performances, and only a little bit of OBA's, but I was not able to fall in love with it
Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Ultrasmooth 305 is the smoothest paper I have ever seen. Black density is acceptable. It has a little bit of OBA's more that the Photo Rag 308.
Overall maybe is my preferred of the Hahnemuehle matte, but still I'm not going crazy for it.
Hahnemuehle Museum Etching 350 is a reference media without OBA's, but is not smooth and the tone is not neutral.
Hahnemuehle German Etching 310 is has a evident texture too and it has some OBA's.
Hahnemuehle Bamboo is simply too much colored for my tastes.
Canson Rag Photographique 310 is one of the smoothest surfaces I have ever seen (maybe surpassed only by Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Ultrasmooth 305)
and it is very neutral too even being totally without OBAs. This is a big plus.
Unlucky, in my test this paper was not a champion of black density, so I have seen that the prints are a little bit less convincing than others.
Canson BFK Rives 310 has similar qualities of the Rag Photographique 310 but it has a evident texture, so, take a look to a sample pack if you are looking for smooth surfaces before buying a full box.
Ilford Gold Gotton Smooth 330 is a stiff smooth cotton rag paper without OBA's.
I have seen decent performances for black density but the paper color is not neutral as the Canson, for example.
And now the Epson papers:
The Cold Press ones are too much textured for me. I don't like it.
The Hot Press ones are not so smooth as Canson Rag Photographique or HPR Ultrasmooth, but they are "just right", smooth enough to don't appear plain flat but neither textured in a disturbing way for me, so I like it.
The Hot Press Bright 330 is an incredible media. smooth enough but not to much as I have told.
It has simply the best black ink performances of all the matte papers I have tested and is fine to the touch
What you have to accept is that the core is loaded with OBA's, and in UV presence the paper color is very bright.
However, in indoor condition with limited UV the paper tone is perfect.
Typically I'm very concerned regarding OBA content in papers, but I have to admit that the Aardenburg light fading test for this paper are surprisingly very good, as Mark can probably confirm. I think that B&W print will last very long with this paper.
Based on what I have tested and all these other considerations, against my adversity to OBA's, I have to frankly admit that this paper is very strongly worth considering.
Color an B&W prints are really beautiful, and I have never any had scratch or feeding issues with A3+ sheets.
Note that this paper is sold only in big format, starting from A3+, so for little prints you have to cut it.
The Hot Press Natural 330, it shares all the quality of the Bright with the plus that it has no OBA,
the flip side is that the paper color is not neutral at all, it is less neutral than the Ilford Gold Cotton Smooth 330 if I remember correctly.
For this reason, in my opinion, the resulting prints are less convincing than the ones made with the Bright one.
The light fastness test results are similar to the Bright one, if I'm not wrong,
so the final choice is based on the paper tone color that suit best your needs.
As final note I add that it was difficult for me to get a Epson sample pack for these papers before buying some box,
but avoid the error to be fooled by the fact the these are Epson branded and not some other well regarded brand name:
I strongly suggest you to keep these papers in consideration before deciding the best one for you.
I have never tested Museo or Innova papers because I'm not able to find it easily here, so, no word on it.
I hope this could help you in your decisions.
Let we know your findings.
Ciao.
Andrea :)
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there is another paper that deserves much more notice than it gets in this catagory, smooth, no OBAs, 100% cotton. PremierArt Generations Alise Museum Grade. Excellent dmax and gamut, excellent price. Highly recommended...
Tyler
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there is another paper that deserves much more notice than it gets in this catagory, smooth, no OBAs, 100% cotton. PremierArt Generations Alise Museum Grade. Excellent dmax and gamut, excellent price. Highly recommended...
Tyler
And a sample pack would be handy indeed.
Brian A
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there is another paper that deserves much more notice than it gets in this catagory, smooth, no OBAs, 100% cotton. PremierArt Generations Alise Museum Grade. Excellent dmax and gamut, excellent price. Highly recommended...
Tyler
Great write up, much appreciated. I am having a dabble with some Innova paper, I do almost 99% in B&W using ABW mode with manual adjustments as required. Epson papers do seem better in the dark shadows from the off. I have alos bought a sample pack off the alternatives to Epson Cold press, I'm odd preferring textured papers, maybe my style of photography, my preference but seemingly more depth than super smooth to my eyes.
For what it's worth I have found it difficult to 'bond' with Museo Max 365g
My pile of sample prints for matt papers is 25mm thick now..... HFA, Canson, Fotospeed, Innova, Museo and a few odd papers
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For what it's worth I have found it difficult to 'bond' with Museo Max 365g
Museo Max is a lost cause in my opinion. The performance is way inferior to the portfolio rag. Maybe it was created as an 'economical' option to the portfolio rag?