Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: tommm on September 04, 2013, 06:55:35 am
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When I soft proof an image in Lightroom (5) and Photoshop (CS6) there is not an exact match between the two proofs. This is the case both with simulate paper & ink on and off (with matching settings in both applications).
The difference between the two varies depending on the exact image used but I've been doing most of my testing using Bill Atkinson's test image which clearly shows a difference between the two proofs, mostly in the saturated reds, yellows and greens. Photoshop shows a slightly more saturated, less washed out proof. It is much more obvious on my wide gammut external display (NEC Spectraview 271) than on my laptop display but still visible on both.
What's going on? Anyone find the same thing or is it specific to my setup, in which case how am I going wrong?
Thanks,
Tom
(for clarity - I had been having a problem with the image in Lightroom and Photoshop not matching outside of softproofing on an external monitor with CS4 - this has been solved by upgrading to CS6, see other topic.)
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Does it happen only when you have the external display connected? e.g., does the difference still happen on your laptop display even if your external display is disconnected?
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When I soft proof an image in Lightroom (5) and Photoshop (CS6) there is not an exact match between the two proofs.
I feel LR's a superior viewing system due to the white surround. You might try simulating this with a custom Photoshop bkgnd. But what you can't do is have it ramp in as you see in LR when you turn on the soft proof. It's really a great feature. IOW, soft proofing in LR is superior IMHO.
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Hi Eric,
I hadn't thought about trying that. I'd originally been doing almost all my testing on the external (as that's where I edit) and just did a quick test on the laptop screen, where I thought I could also see a difference - though much smaller.
On your suggestion I've now done a much more thorough testing on the laptop screen and it seems I was mistaken, the images match exactly between Lightroom and Photoshop on the Laptop screen, with no softproofing and in every state of softproofing. So, the problem is purely on the external (an NEC Spectraview 271 calibrated with Spectraview 5 and an i1 Display Pro).
I've been using Bill Atkinson's test image at 50% / 1:2 and with the image matched on screen pixel for pixel, then flicking back and forth between Lightroom and Photoshop (Andrew - I've also matched background colours). The difference is very obvious in saturated colours, with Lightroom being less saturated and less punchy, but less saturated colours match almost exactly, as though they are both using the same profile but Lightroom is limiting the colour gammut being used somehow.
In Bill Atkinson's image the composite picture with 4 children at the bottom is almost a match except the yellow of the sunflower, the strawberries image, the foliage images, the sunset image all show very obvious difference.
Thanks for any help getting to the bottom of this.
Tom
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Is no-one else using an NEC 271, Photoshop and Lightroom finding the same?
Would be good to have some feedback even if it's just to say that I'm being an idiot and need to change something.
It occurs with all the profiles I've tried and unless someone can help I'm at a bit of a dead end. Would rather use Lightroom for my softproofing as that's where I print from but Photoshop seems to be the one giving the correct proofing.
By the way I'm on a Mac (10.8.4)
Tom
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Is no-one else using an NEC 271, Photoshop and Lightroom finding the same?
Would be good to have some feedback even if it's just to say that I'm being an idiot and need to change something.
It occurs with all the profiles I've tried and unless someone can help I'm at a bit of a dead end. Would rather use Lightroom for my softproofing as that's where I print from but Photoshop seems to be the one giving the correct proofing.
By the way I'm on a Mac (10.8.4)
Tom
Will try tonight and reporf ba k.
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Tom, does one product produce a better screen to print match?
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JRSmit - Thanks
Andrew - Yes, Photoshop. It's almost as though Lightroom is squashing the image into a smaller gammut space - saturated colours (especially reds, greens and yellows) "block up" / desaturate. Any ideas?
Tom
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Tomm i opened tbe same tiff file in lightroom and in photoshop. Lightroom aplears to display a lktgle bit lighter. When softproofing with same profile the apparent difference stays. Also the ps prooc looks a bit warmer. Rgb readouts show a difference, in LR a value for red could be 209 and in PS 197.
So there is a difference.
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Addition: no blocked up colors. I use win7 64bit a nec pa271w.
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Hmmm, peculiar. Sounds different to what I'm experiencing, did you have the backgrounds set to the same colour and what version of PS are you on? I had been seeing a difference outside of softproofing when I was on CS4 but CS6 has fixed that. The difference is now definitely only in softproofing.
Tom
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I've got LR5 and CC soft proofing Bill's image, here's what I see (the differences on MY PA271W are rather tiny if at all):
(http://www.digitaldog.net/files/LRvsCC-softproof.jpg)
Note that this is an image converted to Adobe RGB (1998). IF the original is Lab, that may be the issue (?) and I'll have to dig up the original.
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I get similar results viewing the original Lab image.
You're using a SpectraView but what software to calibrate? BasiCColor variant or the US version?
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Tomm sorry for the brief feedbacks, i suffered a computer failure, and tried to respond via my mobile. I found another computer to give a better feedback. (and in men time fixed the problem, a broken power supply). Before the failure, I tried a 16bit tiff image in prophotoRGB space: a portrait of a red haired woman with some make up and quite saturated blue dress and in front of a light almost neutral gray background.
Opened this image in LR and in PS . the LR display appears a bit lighter and a touch cooler.
When softproofing with same paper profile, the apparent differnce sort of stays, the background rgb readout on a particular spot is around 210, whereas in PS it is more around 200. In shadows the rgb differences are greater and with more variation between r g and b.
But no blocking of colors or strong differences in saturated colors.
So it looks like you are suffering from a problem i do not reproduce.
I use Intel core i7 3770 and on chip iGPU, Win 7 64bit, a nec pa271w, LR4.4 and a trail of PS CS6. In LR i set the background under softproof mode to darkgrey instead of paper white to take that element out of the equation .
The NEC is set to 100lux, full spectrum, native contrast and L for trc, profiled and calibrated with spectraview2 and a xrite i1Displaypro puck.
When my printer (epson4900) is back in my office this weekend (i hope) i will experiment a bit more, i normally do not use PS, so whenever i need to go to PS i ask a friend to do the mods in PS. But habe a trial now to see if it is worthwhile to have it myself.
I remember reading in a book written by Martin Evening that LR and PS have slight display differences, have to find that book and chapter.
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Rodney, Tomm, I will use that testimage of bill atkinson as well this weekend.
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I've been doing a bit more experimenting to try and diagnose my problem and think I'm getting somewhere.
With PS on the Laptop screen and LR on the NEC:
1.With soft proofing off in both - the image in LR on the NEC is much richer (as I would expect due to the wide gammut of the NEC).
2.With soft proofing on in both - the images are an almost exact match (on the different screens).
3.With soft proofing still on in both, drag PS across to the NEC but without releasing the mouse button - the images match (!), release the mouse button - PS proof now becomes much richer and does not match LR proof. I'm pretty sure this is PS switching from using the Laptop profile to the NEC profile.
Therefore it appears to me that when turning soft proofing on in LR whilst on the external display it is switching back to using the laptop profile to display the image, even though with soft proofing off it is using the correct external display profile.
Does this deduction seem correct?
Is it specific to my setup somehow - laptop (2008 17" Macbook pro 2.5GHz Intel core 2 duo 6GB Ram), graphics card (NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 512 MB), display (NEC Spectraview 271)?
Any ideas?
Tom
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I'm using a laptop (MacPro Retina) driving the NEC. The two examples are apples to apples (Photoshop vs. LR on the NEC).
Naturally it's pointless to compare the laptop display to the NEC.
I haven't looked at laptop display alone using the two applications.
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Andrew,
I'm using Spectraview 5 software, which I think is the BasiCColor variant but packaged with the display. I've tried re-calibrating/profiling the display but that has no effect. Also the embedded profile (LAB, Prophoto RGB) makes no difference.
I'm about to try setting the profile of my laptop screen to the NEC profile (see previous post findings) to see if that works as a bodge.
Jan,
Thanks for looking into it. Would be interested in which book and where that remembered snipit from Martin Evening if you can find it.
Tom
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I'm using Spectraview 5 software, which I think is the BasiCColor variant but packaged with the display.
I'm not and that could be the difference. Make sure you do NOT make a Version 4 ICC profile!
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Obviously the laptop and NEC shouldn't match if the image contains a wide gammut of colours.
The point was that they did pretty much match when soft proofing was on and LR was on the NEC but PS was on the laptop (which shouldn't be the case), and also when the PS image is dragged across to the NEC but hadn't been released and therefore PS had swapped from using the laptop profile to the NEC profile.
Flip it around and put LR on the laptop and PS on the NEC with softproofing still on and they no longer match, the image in PS on the NEC is much richer / more saturated.
With soft proofing off whether PS is on the laptop and LR on the NEC or vice versa the image on the NEC looks much richer. Put both apps on the NEC and both look rich and are a perfect match, put both on the laptop and both are much less rich but are still a perfect match.
This definitely leads me to think that, only when soft proofing, LR is using the laptop profile to display the image on the NEC.
Does this not seem to be the case?
Thanks for the help,
Tom
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No not using Version 4 ICC.
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Tom, I think there is definitely a possibility (not yet confirmed) that Lr is using the primary display color profile for soft proofing, even if the image is on the secondary (external) display. I will check internally.
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This definitely leads me to think that, only when soft proofing, LR is using the laptop profile to display the image on the NEC.
Does this not seem to be the case?
I'm confused as I'm driving my NEC from a laptop but the laptop lid is closed and all is well. Not sure exactly what you're doing (sorry if I missed this, are you even on a Mac)?
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Hi Eric & Andrew,
I can confirm that both closing the lid of the laptop (MacBook Pro) and setting the laptop display to the NEC profile (separately) "fix" the problem.
Great that we're getting to the bottom of this. Using the NEC profile on the laptop screen is pretty damn ugly so don't think I'll do that but closing the laptop is a reasonable solution in the short term but I'll need to buy an external keyboard.
Hopefully with you on the case Eric the problem in Lightroom will be fixed soon enough.
Thanks,
Tom
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Tommm glad to note that you found the direction to solve the problem.
I had some time this morning to further look into the differences between LR and PS.
With same image in LR and PS both in softproof mode, measuring RGB values at same spot gives these results:
Spot 1:
App R G B
LR: 197 192 186
PS: 178 179 173
Spot 2:
App R G B
LR: 23 8 18
PS: 11 7 0
If not in softproof (LR in develop, PS in normal view):
Spot 1:
App R G B
LR: 192 193 187 (75.4%, 75.6%, 73.4%)
PS: 179 179 173
So to summarise: some difference - although curious enough - but not the issues you experienced and found the cause for luckily.
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In addition to above, if I change the working space in PS to sRGB the RGB values for grey tones grey wedge on Bill Atkinson Lab Test Page.tif are identical.
Is LR using a sRGB tonecurve ?
Correction: it apparently is, see also martin evening's book "The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2 Book" on page 572
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Hi Eric & Andrew,
I can confirm that both closing the lid of the laptop (MacBook Pro) and setting the laptop display to the NEC profile (separately) "fix" the problem.
That's good info. I've passed this on to the Lr team and they're looking into a potential issue involving a primary display's profile being applied to an image being viewed (in soft proof mode) on the secondary display.
One question for you: which OS X version are you using?
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I'm on 10.8.4. Thanks for looking into this.
Tom