Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Manoli on September 04, 2013, 05:45:21 am

Title: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 04, 2013, 05:45:21 am
It's been several months now since the reality of CC hit home. I assume that many of us (those that don't intend to subscribe to CC) have, in the meantime, been evaluating other software. Thought it may prove informative, to have a thread where members can exchange their views, experiences (both pro & con) on the alternatives. Obviously, in attempting to replace Photoshop and possibly even Lightroom in the future, a combination of software will be required.

Personally, for raw converters I have focused on C1Pro (expensive) and Iridient Developer (rapidly becoming a favourite).
For PP have been using some Topaz plug-ins which I DO like. InFocus, Clarity and ReMask. Topaz also has PhotoFXLabs which allows their plugins to be used as stand-alone applications (sort of). Plus either
Photoline - a front runner, combines with Topaz.
GIMP - could be sufficient, but haven't really used it enough yet.
For printing, will probably have to be a RIP.

The break, if it comes, won't be easy.
Anyone ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 04, 2013, 06:21:43 am
Obviously, in attempting to replace Photoshop and possibly even Lightroom in the future, a combination of software will be required.

Personally, for raw converters I have focused on C1Pro (expensive) and Iridient Developer (rapidly becoming a favourite).
For PP have been using some Topaz plug-ins which I DO like. InFocus, Clarity and ReMask. Topaz also has PhotoFXLabs which allows their plugins to be used as stand-alone applications (sort of). Plus either
Photoline - a front runner, combines with Topaz.
GIMP - could be sufficient, but haven't really used it enough yet.
For printing, will probably have to be a RIP.

The break, if it comes, won't be easy.
Anyone ?

Hi,

My 'plan B.' lineup looks similar.
Besides the fact that I already had a perpetual Photoshop CS6 licence,
Capture One Pro for Raw conversions, also RawTherapee for special conversions.
Topaz Labs plugins including the photoFXlab control centre, with masks and blending layers.
Photoline is amazing, and indeed supports Photoshop plugins from Topaz Labs and FocusMagic.
Gimp needs a formal 16-bit/channel upgrade, but it's in the works and already implemented in the (unstable) development version.
Printing with Qimage (although a Windows application, is supposed to run on a Mac with e.g. Parallels).

For specialist activities I also use Benvista Photozoom Pro for upsampling to large format, or ImageMagick with scripts for upsampling and downsampling with very high quality. Panostitching is covered with several superior applications. HDR exposure blending and tonemapping is done with the superior SNS-HDR application (also requires Parallels to run on a MAC). FocusStacking is done with Helicon Focus, but Zerene stacker is also supposed to be very good. Then there are some applications for Astrophotography and deconvolution as well.

It makes the workflow less smooth, but who could object to superior output results ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 04, 2013, 07:45:31 am
Bart,

Yes, I too own a CS6 perpetual licence and also forgot to add BenVista's PhotoZoom Pro.
All this is akin to disaster recovery ... !

I know you've been a great proponent of Topaz, and that encouraged me to buy Clarity. So many thanks for the strong recommendation.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Alan Smallbone on September 04, 2013, 10:03:28 am
I wish that Capture 1 would support plugins like Topaz and Nik, that would make things a whole lot easier as well. The standalone Topaz does work, I have had a love/hate relationship with some of the Topaz plugins but there are some excellent ones, like clarity and denoise.

Focusmagic can also be used standalone. PTGUI for stitching and I agree Qimage for printing are good alternatives, in a lot of ways I prefer using Qimage, mostly because I have used it for a long time, but printing on canvas I find easier with Qimage as well as panoramas.

Alan
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 04, 2013, 11:56:40 am
I've used nothing but Qimage for my printing needs for nearly a decade.  For canvas printing it's excellent for a number of reasons, not the least of which is automatic edge mirroring.

Topaz plugins are very useful for me.  Particularly "Adjust" and "Detail".  Topaz would be smart to offer a complete editor.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 04, 2013, 01:06:02 pm
I wish that Capture 1 would support plugins like Topaz and Nik, that would make things a whole lot easier as well..

Hi Alan,

But since Capture One is a Raw-converter, I don't expect it to be an image editor as well. It would be nice, I agree, but not if it creates complications for the folks at Phase One.

Quote
The standalone Topaz does work, I have had a love/hate relationship with some of the Topaz plugins but there are some excellent ones, like clarity and denoise.

As always, it takes a bit of time to familiarize oneself with the peculiarities, but also look beyond the intended capabilities (e.g. Black and White effects can also produce color output, with a mask to reveal the color, while allowing to adjust adaptive exposure and some other adjustments). The photoFXlab plugin/standalone application is also a very useful tool, with it's blending layers and masks. It only needs the capability to save layered output. I've done a feature request to that effect.

Quote
Focusmagic can also be used standalone. PTGUI for stitching and I agree Qimage for printing are good alternatives, in a lot of ways I prefer using Qimage, mostly because I have used it for a long time, but printing on canvas I find easier with Qimage as well as panoramas.

Yes, and for repeat prints one can recall the print-job and use exactly the same settings, or make a template for generic layouts with changing content. Great halo free sharpening, and color targeted sharpening capabilities as well. Very efficient and with high quality output. It's Raw conversion is not bad either, although I do not really use that.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: robgo2 on September 04, 2013, 01:37:08 pm
Like many others, I plan to use CS6 until I reach the point where a newer OS is no longer supported.  Then I will survey the field for alternatives.  Corel's Paint Shop Pro seems to be the most logical one, but it is not Mac compatible and may never be.

In the meantime, I use Photo Mechanic for file ingestion and management, Photo Ninja for raw conversions and CS6 with various Nik plugins for local adjustments and fine tuning.  My printing program is ImagePrint.  This non-integrated workflow is surprisingly smooth and quick.  I have no desire whatsoever to use Lightroom and will do so only if it becomes the only non-CC platform available for the Nik plugins.  My guess is that Google/Nik will eventually come out with a standalone version, just as OnOne and Topaz have done for their plugins.

Rob
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: blumarble on September 14, 2013, 08:38:03 pm
I've found that I like Capture One and now use it for all of my RAW processing, then do the touch up editing in Photoshop.  For the time being, I'll continue to use my CS5 (and not "bite" on Adobe's $9.99 before 12/31 offer), but I've started looking into alternatives for the future eventuality that I'll need to find something else.

For me, the cost is not so much an obstacle, even at $20 a month.  For me, it's losing the options of being able to choose what I use and only pay for what I need, which version I'm comfortable with/used to using, and when I decide to make the switch or upgrade.  Plus, there seem to be a lot of unknowns about the CC arrangement that I'm not comfortable with.  Hopefully, one *VERY* positive thing that will come out of this is that it will motivate some others to develop real alternatives, and the competition will result in more reasonable prices *AND* more useful tools and options.

For my editing, I really need a 64 bit processing version that works with true 16 bit images for my Phase One back.  It's kind of hard to tell whether this is the case from most; they seem to be focused on what they assume is the bulk of the market which is 8 or 14 bit.  Maybe someone can tell me how to better determine this.

There are two programs that specifically state "16 bit" that I intend to try out eventually; but I may wait awhile in order not to use up a trial session too soon.  One of these is PhotoLine, and the other is one that I haven't seen mentioned here or in other forums, but looks promising: Serif PhotoPlus.

Can anyone tell me if my NIK plugins will also work in PhotoLine?  Also, has anyone tried PhotoPlus?

Rob
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 14, 2013, 08:50:25 pm
I was frankly starting to consider the CC route at 9.99 US$ per month only to find out I was not elligible as a full CS owner...

So the plan remains the same:
- buy licenses today from all the alternatives up to a the same budget I would be paying on CC until my CS6 license becomes unusable,
- Currently, these alternatives are a bit limited since my Mac Pro still runs 10.6.8, but they already include Photoline and Pixelmator. I will add a few others after I migrate to 10.8/10.9 if I decide to stay on OSX. The UI of photoline is not as tuned as that of PS by a large margin, but there is excellent potential,
- On raw conversion, no need to change anything: C1 Pro for D800 at base ISO, DxO 8 for most of the rest, Iridient Developper for some cases.

I still own a LR4 perpetual licenses but am starting to develop an allergic reaction when I click on the icon in the dock. Some days, after a few drinks, I think I see rust marks on the icon, not too sure... ;)

This being said, I may need to use it to process the DNG files that my soon to arrive Betterlight scanning back seems to be able to generate. So I may decide to upgrade LR to version 5, we will see.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ButchM on September 14, 2013, 10:38:43 pm
I stopped using Lr back in the spring before the Adobe announcement of a CC only option to move forward for Ps ... I utilize and am dire need of a fully functional slideshow and book option as both are very integral to my workflow. Both options in Lr are severely limited and abysmal in Lr compared to other options. I did not invest in Lr since v1 just to own ACR with a different UI ... While I very much appreciate all the hard work expended on the Develop module ... I also expected that the entire Lightroom application would receive equal attention ... it has not.

I've owned Photoshop since 1993 ... I already have ACR ... many times over ... I don't think it is worth a monthly stipend just to have RAW compatibility for new cameras to maintain my Ps workflow (especially considering we no longer are compelled to update cameras every 18 months just to remain competitive) ... it's so much easier to switch to a software developer that doesn't include a built in expiration date with their software.

I have moved my entire RAW workflow to Aperture 3 ... while it may not have all the bells, buzzers and whistles that the Lr Develop module may have ... it does what I desire for slideshows and books like no other ... thus saving me countless hours and the task of exporting tens of thousands of derivative files in the process to use other software solutions. There is no greater joy than to create something from scratch in a software that has no limitations for such output ... yes, maybe on a few images I could achieve slightly better output in Lr ... but if I have to offer a slideshow that can only handle a single transition, single audio tract, can't fit a slideshow to the audio tract, or only print a book using Blurb ... What actual benefit is all that supposed "superior" image processing to my bottom line?

The CC licensing model offers nothing more than the opportunity to enhancing Adobe's bank account while depleting my own ... regardless of what improvements they may decide to offer, or not offer ...(like, after 38 years as a professional photographer I can actually make use of a Camera Shake tool? ... I spent the last four decades precisely honing my skills to avoid the need for such a "fix") ...  

So ... with the May announcement of the CC only model to offer the only pathway to receive future advancements in Ps ... I'm done with Adobe. Not because I think their software is inferior ... but, because of the way they have made decisions over the past several years on how they advance their current offerings. They either deem my concerns as trivial or in the extreme minority ... or ... they just don't care. Either way, they no longer have my best interests at heart ... Why should I spend one cent more to further their financial gain?

I have been using Ps since v2.0 in 1993 ... I had been using Lr since the very first public beta for v1 ... I almost feel that that my entire effort to use Adobe software was in vain ... because their own interests trump mine to the extreme. Commerce is a symbiotic relationship, buyers do not advance without sellers or vice versa ... Unfortunately, CC only guarantees that Adobe will benefit ... not so much for their subscribers. Once in the system, there are absolutely zero guarantees that Adobe will offer a product that will enhance a subscriber's livelihood ... zero guarantee that will happen. Yet, so many think the pathway is a golden opportunity.

My plan of action for the future is to continue with  Aperture 3 for my RAW workflow and use my current perpetual license for Ps as long as I can make it viable for pixel editing ... then move on to whatever vendor who still offers perpetual licensing. I don't really care who that is ... nor am I worried I won't have options. I'm not the only business person of this mindset and there will be more than a few young, enterprising entrepreneurs who will step up and answer the call.

Even with the offer for Ps and Lr for $9.99 a month ... if I must use other options for Slideshows and Books ... where is the advantage for my bottom line to spend more money with Adobe? ... doing so, I will not receive the tools to complete my daily tasks. An offer for a bad deal at half the price is not a good deal for the consumer ... only a less expensive bad deal.

So, no thanks Adobe ... I'll keep what I have already paid for and seek other options to move forward. I may fail in the process ... but I would much rather own a modest cottage in the country ... than to be beholding to another entity forever for a temporary penthouse in the sky paying in perpetuity ...

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 14, 2013, 10:56:34 pm
I'll continue to use Adobe PS and Lightroom until either it gets too expensive or something better comes along, which is neither the case today...so I stay put.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2013, 05:37:03 am
I'll continue to use Adobe PS and Lightroom until either it gets too expensive or something better comes along, which is neither the case today...so I stay put.

That's a reasonnable approach for sure.

As far as I am concerned the criteria is not "better", it is good enough for my needs.

The reason?
- I prefer to use good enough products from a company I feel respects me as a customer rather than using great software (like PS) from a company who keeps acting as if I didn't mean anything to them. This is not emotional, it affects the continued value of my investment in terms of skills, IP,...
- the longer I wait the longer I keep creating IP that may be lost forever.
 
Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jrp on September 15, 2013, 06:23:23 am
Topaz also has PhotoFXLabs which allows their plugins to be used as stand-alone applications (sort of). Plus either

Similarly, OnOne's suite can be used to do some of the touching up that we commonly do in Photoshop; the next release looks as if it will be a serious alternative to Photoshop Elements.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: PhotoEcosse on September 15, 2013, 06:46:44 am
Like many others, I plan to use CS6 until I reach the point where a newer OS is no longer supported. 

Rob

I think that is the sensible approach, Rob.

There is little point evaluating alternatives today that may not be needed until, say 4 or 5 years down the line. By then there may be more and different options available.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 15, 2013, 07:18:25 am
There is little point evaluating alternatives today that may not be needed until, say 4 or 5 years down the line. By then there may be more and different options available.

Hi,

There may also be fewer options available because nobody supported the new initiatives ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 15, 2013, 09:11:42 am
That's a reasonnable approach for sure.

As far as I am concerned the criteria is not "better", it is good enough for my needs.

The reason?
- I prefer to use good enough products from a company I feel respects me as a customer rather than using great software (like PS) from a company who keeps acting as if I didn't mean anything to them. This is not emotional, it affects the continued value of my investment in terms of skills, IP,...
- the longer I wait the longer I keep creating IP that may be lost forever.
 
Cheers,
Bernard


Man if I took that approach I sure could not survive in today's world. Name one petro company that respects you. Name me one pharma company that respects you. All big companies respect their share holders and don't for one minute think that is not the same with whatever products you choose to use. Decisions are made with not your best interests, but the shareholders best interests, always has been, always will be. Thinking any differently is just being naive.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 15, 2013, 09:15:57 am
Hi,

There may also be fewer options available because nobody supported the new initiatives ...

Cheers,
Bart

Well if there is no support for the new product, then the new product is ill conceived. Good products with good management have a way of surviving.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Rhossydd on September 15, 2013, 10:00:47 am
Thinking any differently is just being naive.
No. Complete disregard for customers can cause big companies terminal downfall. Google "Ratner effect".

Spending your money with companies you like and trust is a power too few exercise.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 15, 2013, 10:47:35 am
Well if there is no support for the new product, then the new product is ill conceived. Good products with good management have a way of surviving.

Hi,

Indeed, there are those who mistake popularity for quality ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 15, 2013, 11:48:29 am
Well if there is no support for the new product, then the new product is ill conceived. Good products with good management have a way of surviving.

Not necessarily.
When you have a de-facto monopoly, as we do now with Adobe Photoshop, it benefits no-one other than the monopolist. It stifles competition, can stifle innovation and good products (companies) are often bought in their infancy rather than be allowed to flourish and thereby pose a (financial) threat.

Think RAW Shooter, NIK software etc. I know Jeff Schewe claimed in another post that Adobe bought RAWShooter to acquire one of their engineers, (that didn't work out) but nevertheless they did buy the then 'leader of the pack' and, if I remember correctly, Adobe at the time were not exactly even on the map when it came to RAW converters. Lightroom 1 was a 'freebie' to all RAW Shooter licencees.

I'll continue to use Adobe PS and Lightroom until either it gets too expensive or something better comes along, which is neither the case today...so I stay put.

But until we all understand that a lack of alternatives is detrimental to our long term health AND are prepared to back fledgling companies by actually supporting (buying) their products, then you're putting your head in the guillotine and praying ...

It's BAD business practice to be engaged in any 'negotiation' without an alternative. Pure and simple.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 15, 2013, 11:58:24 am
Not necessarily.
When you have a de-facto monopoly, as we do now with Adobe Photoshop, it benefits no-one other than the monopolist. It stifles competition, can stifle innovation and good products (companies) are often bought in their infancy rather than be allowed to flourish and thereby pose a (financial) threat.

Think RAW Shooter, NIK software etc. I know Jeff Schewe claimed in another post that Adobe bought RAWShooter to acquire one of their engineers, (that didn't work out) but nevertheless they did buy the then 'leader of the pack' and, if I remember correctly, Adobe at the time were not exactly even on the map when it came to RAW converters. Lightroom 1 was a 'freebie' to all RAW Shooter licencees.

But until we all understand that a lack of alternatives is detrimental to our long term health AND are prepared to back fledgling companies by actually supporting (buying) their products, then you're putting your head in the guillotine and praying ...

It's BAD business practice to be engaged in any 'negotiation' without an alternative. Pure and simple.

I guess you need to ask these other companies like Corel why we have a monopoly situation when 10 years ago they could have been competition but fumbled the ball miserably. And now you want to give them your money after Adobe spent 10's of millions of dollars investing in PS and other products and moved image processing forwards while others sat still. I know who I'd rather repay...the ones that brought us here, not the ones that bailed on us long ago.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 15, 2013, 01:09:50 pm
Decisions are made with not your best interests, but the shareholders best interests, always has been, always will be. Thinking any differently is just being naive.

And now you want to give them your money after Adobe spent 10's of millions of dollars investing in PS and other products and moved image processing forwards while others sat still. I know who I'd rather repay...the ones that brought us here, not the ones that bailed on us long ago.

Not at all what I said, added to which your two posts seemingly contradict each other.

Let's not digress, yet again, into another Adobe CC discourse. It's all been said many times over in this forum. This is about alternatives - for photographers. Interesting that you're the only poster who raises 'Corel', so far, as a reason NOT to look for alternatives.

Care to be proactive instead of naive ? Today, most of us have a copy of CS6 (either suite or PS) plus Lightroom 4 or 5, on 'perpetual'.

(A) Continue on CS6 plus Lr perpetual and take your chances.
(B) The $9.99 long term PS-LR CC pricing offer (giving Adobe the 'benefit-of-the-doubt') is probably in our interest to at least consider. It's $120 a year. Give Adobe a year or two (to protect our asses) and see how thing develop. If we don't subscribe we're committed to alternatives or, should we change our minds later, an annual subscription of $240 instead. You can do the maths. $120 is insurance.

Neither of the above options negate the fact that it remains in OUR best interests that there should be viable alternatives.
Now, if it's ok with you can we go back to sharing our 'notes' ?


Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 15, 2013, 01:44:10 pm
Anyone remember LivePicture or know what happened to it? It was around in the mid late 90's. I became fairly profficient with it and then it dropped off the radar.

It had some interesting features. All effects were layer based and brushed in. It was non destructive in that once all the edits were made you output or built to a new file. The edits were saved as a project. Quite a thing back then.

Personally I am happy with CC but think it is valuable to explore and support alternatives. It would be great if we could do that without having to take sides in the CC debate on this thread at least.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jjj on September 15, 2013, 02:15:07 pm
Anyone remember LivePicture or know what happened to it? It was around in the mid late 90's. I became fairly profficient with it and then it dropped off the radar.

It had some interesting features. All effects were layer based and brushed in. It was non destructive in that once all the edits were made you output or built to a new file. The edits were saved as a project. Quite a thing back then.
I think Jeff Schewe mentioned that he used to use it in one of the earlier threads about PS alternatives and was thinking about dusting off a copy to see how it compared these days.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: digitaldog on September 15, 2013, 02:53:36 pm
Anyone remember LivePicture or know what happened to it? It was around in the mid late 90's.

I was an early adopter. It's long dead. I do have a copy around here somewhere but I'd need a very old machine to run it (Pre-OS X).
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2013, 05:02:24 pm
There is little point evaluating alternatives today that may not be needed until, say 4 or 5 years down the line. By then there may be more and different options available.

Indeed. What we need to do today is fund the development of the alternatives we will need in a few years.

My recommendation is not to waste time using alternatives, it is just to buy licenses to support those companies.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: michael on September 15, 2013, 06:17:14 pm
I was an early adopter. It's long dead. I do have a copy around here somewhere but I'd need a very old machine to run it (Pre-OS X).
But, but, you have a perpetual license, right?

Just keep using it!

Right.

Michael
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: digitaldog on September 15, 2013, 06:28:30 pm
But, but, you have a perpetual license, right?
I do. And I have a perceptual license for X-Rez and Photoshop 1.0.7, and every version of Photoshop thereafter up to CC. So what? I'd prefer to use CC subscription over the previous app's.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 15, 2013, 07:16:49 pm
But, but, you have a perpetual license, right?

Just keep using it!

Right.

That is of course a valid point, perpetual licenses from dead companies are useless.

But so are subscription licenses.

Assuming that the strategists at Adobe came up with the subscription model to increase revenue under the pressure of stakeholders, I wonder what happens if ever CC ends up decreasing revenue?

If perpetual's income stream was not sufficient for Adobe to keep investing in CS software, then why should we think that Adobe will keep investing in the, arguably, more expensive to run CC framework if it ends up generating less cash?

Why could CC generate less revenue? Because of all those creative individuals and small companies refusing to sign a white check to Adobe, not because they cannot afford 30 US$ per month, but because of the principle. Because they don't want to support a model that they are starting to understand will continue to increase dependance and further reduce freedom.

I understand that this is not a fight you are interested in fighting, but it is a very deep societal shift that many people find not to be in their interest. This is really not just about a 2 fold increase of the price of a great piece of software.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: digitaldog on September 15, 2013, 07:49:30 pm
If perpetual's income stream was not sufficient for Adobe to keep investing in CS software, then why should we think that Adobe will keep investing in the, arguably, more expensive to run CC framework if it ends up generating less cash?
That's a big IF. It is possible that perceptual income stream was sufficient, but a subscription income stream would be greater no? What company would not move to this newer model if they thought it would increase their income? Wouldn't your company do so? I would.
Quote
I understand that this is not a fight you are interested in fighting, but it is a very deep societal shift that many people find not to be in their interest. This is really not just about a 2 fold increase of the price of a great piece of software.
The bottom line is, this is a cost to benefit proposition for all Adobe customers. If enough bail, it will hurt Adobe. But many of us will accept the new model just as we accept increases in prices for other products and services. We don't like the increase in fees but we recognize this is a fact of life. We sometimes pass these fees onto our own customers. This is capitalism in progress.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: hubell on September 15, 2013, 09:01:18 pm
With the current offer on the table to have full access to the most up to date versions of both Photoshop and LR, the critical, state of the art software for any professional photographer, for $10 per month, it seems to me that anyone working as a professional who balks at the price ought to be in a different business(or not be in business at all). If it's over the "principle" of rental v. perpetual licenses, well, I can't imagine anyone running a photography business on a rational basis who would choose to make a stand over $120 per year by dropping PS in favor of some hobby-like alternative that may disappear in the blink of an eye. This is not about $10,000 or even $500 per year. $120!!!!
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: JohnAONeill on September 15, 2013, 09:10:23 pm
That's a big IF. It is possible that perceptual income stream was sufficient, but a subscription income stream would be greater no? What company would not move to this newer model if they thought it would increase their income? Wouldn't your company do so? I would. The bottom line is, this is a cost to benefit proposition for all Adobe customers. If enough bail, it will hurt Adobe. But many of us will accept the new model just as we accept increases in prices for other products and services. We don't like the increase in fees but we recognize this is a fact of life. We sometimes pass these fees onto our own customers. This is capitalism in progress.

Yep and look where that got the world economy! Seriously though, if your argument is that "this is the way the world is going, so we should just all tag along" that's kind of lame.  Consumers have every right to object and also to speak out freely when large corporations try to act in a way which is anti-competitive. From reading this forum and many others I would say that the overwhelming majority of photographers are against Adobe's CC model. Put simply, it is Adobe that should be made to re-think their policies and fall in line with customer expectations and not the other way. He who pays the piper...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: MHMG on September 15, 2013, 09:14:03 pm
That is of course a valid point, perpetual licenses from dead companies are useless.

Not quite. Perpetual licenses of "dead" software have gotten me through some vexing file migration and work productivity issues on more than one occasion. It's not just about companies going belly up. It's about companies abandoning software while failing to give customers appropriate migration tools and time frame. For example, Adobe bought Aldus Pagemaker, then canned it when Adobe Management decided to move all those Pagemaker customers over to Indesign. But the Adobe-supplied migration software to migrate Pagemaker files to Indesign files was half-baked, so having a perpetual license on Pagemaker running on a personally archived hardware/software platform for a few years longer than what Adobe thought was "reasonable"  bought me more time to deal with the manual editing/migration problems associated with my obsolete Pagemaker files. Similarly, I kept using a functional copy of Live Picture well past the point where it had "died" at the hands of bad corporate management decisions. Why? Because it took a few more years past that point before the computer hardware I could afford to purchase could actually handle my big high-res scans in PS that had always been effortless in Live Picture. PS and my computer hardware did eventually catch up and overtake Live Picture in terms of ease of use and ability to handle large files, but there was a three year transition/migration window where my obsolete perpetual license for Live Picture 2.6 was still kicking PS butt before I finally made the total transition to PS.

The real cautionary tale in all of this new rush to the "cloud"/subscription software paradigm is that companies expect customers to move to the next greatest thing faster than many of us can always achieve, and in that quest they don't always provide good backwards compatibility for migrating legacy files. Perpetual licenses combined with "archived" hardware and software as part of my digital file migration strategy has bought me time I needed to make those painful transitions occur more on my time schedule and not on some imposed corporate time schedule. It's not just about dead software or dead companies.

Another example: All those guys with huge project inventories on Final Cut Pro 7 being told that Final Cut Pro X was much better, but oops, Apple screwed the pooch with backwards compatibility and discarded functionality in the first version, so many customers got left high and dry with huge archives of Final Cut 7 projects that couldn't be easily ported to Final Cut Pro X. Don't get me wrong. I think Final Cut Pro X is fantastic, but I didn't have any legacy issues with Final Cut Pro 7. Many pros did. What's to say Adobe does something like that with Premier or some other app in the near future...  Well, many of us will need to navigate those waters carefully with software that we can still keep running on our systems well after the corporate types have told us to "get over it". That's my concern about Adobe's current subscription model. I Know migration of digital assets is inevitable, but perpectual licenses have eased that pain. I'm not sure I trust Adobe yet for me to entrust Adobe with all future file migration issues.  Forced File migration will continue to happen. We can all count on it. Adobe needs to add an option that let's us buy out our last version if and when we quit subscribing. It might indeed have to be a rather hefty cancelation fee option for Adobe management to believe it keeps the subscription plan more favorable, but without such a file migration safety net, I will continue to have real concerns about Adobe CC.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on September 15, 2013, 09:49:21 pm
It is possible that perceptual income stream was sufficient, but a subscription income stream ...
Your friendly neighborhood Grammar and Spelling Nazi wishes to point out that the old-style Adobe licenses are perpetual licenses, not perceptual ones.

Now, Andrew, please write on the blackboard 500 times:
   "It's perceptual vs. relative colorimetric in color management, but
    It's perpetual vs. subscription in licensing software."

If you do that nicely, I will overlook the same error on your previous dozen or more posts on this topic, and you may go out to recess with your friends.   ;)
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Rhossydd on September 16, 2013, 01:46:23 am
That is of course a valid point, perpetual licenses from dead companies are useless.
Not necessarily, only if they use some sort of authentication routine that's no longer available they cease to be of use.

I bought a licence to use a wonderful bit of label making software(Visual labels) many years ago (copyright 1997). The company making it has long gone, but it was well written and still very useful. The same can be said of my web authoring software Homesite I still use version 4.5 (1997) and it still works fine.
Old software from companies no longer with us can still work well and be productive.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 16, 2013, 04:15:04 am
STOP PRESS

Reuters NewsWire reporting that the highly respected and influential luminary, Michael Reichmann,  has issued a thinly veiled recommendation to all members and viewers of his renowned Luminous Landscape Forum, that they will benefit by safeguarding their perpetual licences and implies that a wholesale migration to Windows will guard against obsolescence and alleviate the risks and restrictions that Adobe (ADBE) has recently imposed on its client base.

Tim Cook was not immediately available for comment. Bill Gates though did reiterate his view that his Apple iPhone 4S was more than sufficient particularly when combined with Google's NIK software and described Adobe's moves as 'puzzling'.

One notable absentee, was Jeff Schewe, an early proponent of the Adobe subscription model. Reuters understands that this is because Mr Schewe has revised his views, as result of a recent trip to Italy, and taken out a lifelong subscription to 'La Dolce Vita' describing his decision as the only real and practical step towards increased productivity.

Officials at the NASDAQ are examining the situation for any signs of abnormal stock price activity whilst reliable sources at the NSA have confirmed that they are monitoring the site closely for signs of terrorist activity, due to the recent abnormally high incidence of 'thread hijacking' .

---

sense of levity 'de rigeur' ...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jjj on September 16, 2013, 09:40:39 am
STOP PRESS
One notable absentee, was Jeff Schewe, an early proponent of the Adobe subscription model. Reuters understands that this is because Mr Schewe has revised his views, as result of a recent trip to Italy, and taken out a lifelong subscription to 'La Dolce Vita' describing his decision as the only real and practical step towards increased productivity.
That made me laugh.  ;D
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jjj on September 16, 2013, 09:46:40 am
Not quite. Perpetual licenses of "dead" software have gotten me through some vexing file migration and work productivity issues on more than one occasion. It's not just about companies going belly up. It's about companies abandoning software while failing to give customers appropriate migration tools and time frame. For example, Adobe bought Aldus Pagemaker, then canned it when Adobe Management decided to move all those Pagemaker customers over to Indesign. But the Adobe-supplied migration software to migrate Pagemaker files to Indesign files was half-baked, so having a perpetual license on Pagemaker running on a personally archived hardware/software platform for a few years longer than what Adobe thought was "reasonable"  bought me more time to deal with the manual editing/migration problems associated with my obsolete Pagemaker files. Similarly, I kept using a functional copy of Live Picture well past the point where it had "died" at the hands of bad corporate management decisions. Why? Because it took a few more years past that point before the computer hardware I could afford to purchase could actually handle my big high-res scans in PS that had always been effortless in Live Picture. PS and my computer hardware did eventually catch up and overtake Live Picture in terms of ease of use and ability to handle large files, but there was a three year transition/migration window where my obsolete perpetual license for Live Picture 2.6 was still kicking PS butt before I finally made the total transition to PS.
This is the reality of computing and why subscription may cause enormous problems for some. But as you do not have to upgrade a product that may alleviate the problem. But what may be vital is the ability to roll back to a previous version if issues are later discovered - I doubt people keep all the installers for CC components lying around once used particularly if using a laptop with a small SSD and problems are always immediately apparent.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Oldfox on September 17, 2013, 01:12:31 am
Anyone using or tried Qimage Ultimate for raw? It has a raw converter nowadays.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Wayland on September 17, 2013, 03:48:24 am
As others have said, I will continue to use CS6 until my hardware/OS outstrips it but I am also going to support PhotoLine, the next best alternative as far as I can see.

PhotoLine seems to be a fairly small concern, our support will make a difference and the cost is more than reasonable. I for one would like to build up my familiarity with this superb little program for other reasons too.

One thing I really like is that PhotoLine is so efficiently coded that it can live on a USB stick and work on any computer I plug it into. Just think about that for a moment and tell me that does not have useful implications.

Although I am still wrestling with a change of methods, just like I did all those years ago when changing from PSP to PS5, I am finding lots of things that PhotoLine does better than PS CS6 such as the way it handles layers and masks. Multiple masks on a layer without clumsy workarounds, RGB and LAB layers in the same document and 8, 16 and 32 bit layers too for just a few examples.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 17, 2013, 05:27:04 am
Anyone using or tried Qimage Ultimate for raw? It has a raw converter nowadays.

Hi,

Qimage Ultimate's Raw conversions are quite decent, and Qimage also has a library/catalog functionality with useful search options. It would be adequate for a lot of people, but I do not use it for that. I prefer the control and quality of Capture One for my Raw conversions. For printing, Qimage is hard to beat though.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Alan Smallbone on September 17, 2013, 04:38:48 pm
I stumbled onto this from another forum, have not downloaded but it looks interesting and open source too.

http://lightzoneproject.org/

Alan
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Misirlou on September 17, 2013, 05:25:35 pm
Lightzone is a very interesting tool. Completely different approach than anything else, but you can get some really nice results if you're willing to go through the tutorials. I also like that it is essentially the product of a very small group of people, meaning it's not likely to get watered down trying to be everything for everybody.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 17, 2013, 05:48:36 pm
Lightzone - never realised this still existed !

If I'm not mistaken it began life with great promise, was based on the paradigm of Ansel's zone system (and was created by two Italians, if I remember correctly, a big IF). Was not free but I guess that in the end, attractive as it was, it couldn't compete with the front runners. Wouldn't count on the RAW part but I think it can import TIFF and JPEG.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 18, 2013, 04:35:19 am
One thing I really like is that PhotoLine is so efficiently coded that it can live on a USB stick and work on any computer I plug it into.

Thanks for the heads-up, Gary.

I hadn't noticed or even thought of the advantages until you pointed them out. Even if PhotoLine isn't a full alternative as it stands now, but it has great potential. Having been so spoilt by the Adobe interface over the years, it does take some getting used to - and I'm not doing so well ! Nevertheless this would seem like an ideal project to further, perhaps with some KickStarter funding ?

What we need to do today is find the development of the alternatives we will need in a few years.
My recommendation is not to waste time using alternatives, it is just to buy licenses to support those companies.

Assume you meant 'fund the development' that we may need.

It may need a bit more than just purchasing the odd licence. Adobe is a billion dollar behemoth, it'll need more than a few odd licences to develop a viable alternative. Personally, would have thought that those candidates with good potential, such as PhotoLine, would benefit from user input and encouragement to fund further development - KickStarter could be ideal for such candidates.

As it stands today, there are several RAW converter alternatives, a bevy of 'as good' if not 'better' plug-ins which many of us already own. So to avoid 'reinventing the wheel' a candidate should ideally be win/mac compatible and support PS plugins. Small playing field so far.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: dds on September 18, 2013, 01:49:06 pm
I'm interested in PhotoLIne too. From reading the manual, it can do pretty much everything I do in Photoshop. I'm curious about how interoperable it is with other software.

A couple of question to those who have tried it: are PhotoLine layers interchangeable with Photoshop layers? Can I open a layered TIFF created in Photoshop and edit the layers? Can I open a layered TIFF made in Photoline and edit the layers?

Also, can a RAW file edited in ACR, Lightroom, C1 or Iridient Developer be viewed in PhotoLine's browser as edited?

Thanks for any info.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jjj on September 18, 2013, 02:36:02 pm
I'm interested in PhotoLIne too. From reading the manual, it can do pretty much everything I do in Photoshop. I'm curious about how interoperable it is with other software.

A couple of question to those who have tried it: are PhotoLine layers interchangeable with Photoshop layers? Can I open a layered TIFF created in Photoshop and edit the layers? Can I open a layered TIFF made in Photoline and edit the layers?

Also, can a RAW file edited in ACR, Lightroom, C1 or Iridient Developer be viewed in PhotoLine's browser as edited?

Thanks for any info.
I would imagine if you save your files as layered TIFFs/PSDs then you'll be able to then edit your layers in any software that opens layer Tiffs/PSDs.
What you won't be able to tweak is layer types that are features of one type of software and not another. For example adjustment layers, smart objects that work fine in PS may not function in Photoline if it doesn't have those exact same capabilities.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: dds on September 18, 2013, 03:51:51 pm
Thanks, jjj. I'm not too worried about smart objects, but I would like to be able to revisit basic adjustment layers--curves, hue/sat, etc. I suppose that's too much to ask. Do those just get flattened into the TIFF when moving from one program to another?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 18, 2013, 04:20:03 pm
Assume you meant 'fund the development' that we may need.

It may need a bit more than just purchasing the odd licence. Adobe is a billion dollar behemoth, it'll need more than a few odd licences to develop a viable alternative. Personally, would have thought that those candidates with good potential, such as PhotoLine, would benefit from user input and encouragement to fund further development - KickStarter could be ideal for such candidates.

As it stands today, there are several RAW converter alternatives, a bevy of 'as good' if not 'better' plug-ins which many of us already own. So to avoid 'reinventing the wheel' a candidate should ideally be win/mac compatible and support PS plugins. Small playing field so far.

Yes, a Kickstarter project is something I have suggested several times here, but it is not something I can start on their behalf.

Buying a license is something we can all do today, hence my recommendation.

Very small companies use money tens of times more efficiently than large corporations like Adobe. A few thousands of licenses extra of Photoline would enable them to hire one or two top talent developers in the coming weeks and that will make a huge difference in 6 months to one year.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jjj on September 18, 2013, 06:48:31 pm
Thanks, jjj. I'm not too worried about smart objects, but I would like to be able to revisit basic adjustment layers--curves, hue/sat, etc. I suppose that's too much to ask. Do those just get flattened into the TIFF when moving from one program to another?
Try it and see.  :)
Oh and smart object are awesomely useful.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 19, 2013, 03:09:56 am
A few thousands of licenses extra of Photoline would enable them to hire one or two top talent developers in the coming weeks and that will make a huge difference in 6 months to one year.

Regrettably, it seems that the duo owner/programmer team of PhotoLine are not interested in expanding their development team nor attracting any more funding. As they put it, " .. we are working on PhotoLine for about 20 years now. Our plans for the future are to do this for the next years the same way :-) "
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 19, 2013, 04:13:47 am
Regrettably, it seems that the duo owner/programmer team of PhotoLine are not interested in expanding their development team nor attracting any more funding. As they put it, " .. we are working on PhotoLine for about 20 years now. Our plans for the future are to do this for the next years the same way :-) "

Hi,

They probably won't mind selling some more licenses though, and it will keep their dedication focused on further development. They've chosen for a lean team, low cost, direct communication lines, and they produce a Photoshop plugin aware tool with an amazingly small memory footprint.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Wayland on September 19, 2013, 05:19:01 pm
Unfortunately it will not do a full read of layered TIFF files written by PhotoShop because apparently PS embeds a PSD into the TIFF to carry over the full information.

It reads it as a flat file but that is not ideal.

Ironically, PL seems to read PSD files better that PS TIFF files.

File transfer is still going to be an issue whichever alternative we go for.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: kkopchynski on September 25, 2013, 03:16:01 pm
Hello,

I have been using Picture Window Pro for many years for advanced photo editing.  I did buy a copy of PS 5 when it had a deep discount just to see if I was missing anything, but I don't use it.  I recently started to use Lightroom for basic edits, and PWP for advanced masking work.  I also have the Nik/Google plugins for LR which are very handy.  I also use PanoTools Assembler, SNS-HDR, and TuFuse Pro for panos, focus stacking, and HDR work. I had seen PhotoLine mentioned in other forums and I intend to have a look soon.  As a previous poster noted, the workflow isn't quite as smooth (although I bet all the mentioned programs except LR could be opened in the time that it takes PS to open), but one can obtain quality results.

Best regards,
Kevin
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: GrantLB on September 25, 2013, 11:30:47 pm
OK I admit it, I don't get it. You've got the best photo editing software on the planet with Lightroom and Photoshop CC and you guys are looking for alternatives? I guess you're not that interested in getting the best from your images. Seriously, $10 a month and you cry fowel. Give me a break. Does anyone remember shooting Kodachrome at $15-20 a crack and for only 36 exposures and you had to wait maybe a week to 10 days to see your results. Please! You were spending more than that in chemistry, film and paper.

Give your heads a shake. People spend more than $10 a month on coffee. Everyone had the chance (and still does) to develop something equal to or better than either LR or PS, but they haven't.

You guys have lost it.

Maybe you should just be playing checkers in the park... that's free. Not supporting any BIG CORPORATIONS then, the big meanies.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: LesPalenik on September 26, 2013, 01:24:57 am
Quote
OK I admit it, I don't get it. You've got the best photo editing software on the planet with Lightroom and Photoshop CC and you guys are looking for alternatives? I guess you're not that interested in getting the best from your images. Seriously, $10 a month and you cry fowel. Give me a break.

OK, lemme s'plain.
Most posters don't complain about $120 cost per year, but about being bullied into the subscription model.
Furthermore, so far Adobe didn't add much to the Photoshop features since they announced their watery invention. Whatever found its way into PS CC, is not even worth $10.


Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ButchM on September 26, 2013, 07:22:36 am
OK I admit it, I don't get it. You've got the best photo editing software on the planet with Lightroom and Photoshop CC and you guys are looking for alternatives?

Well ... how would this all work if there were only one option for cameras, lenses, flash, printers, computers, etc., etc., etc. .... Would we be better off if there was only Canon, or only Nikon? Who benefits more from the lack of a viable competitor? ... The virtual monopolistic software developer ... or their customers? Once everyone is locked in to a subscription plan, don't you think you would benefit from a competitor to keep Adobe engineers on their toes driving them to innovate faster and further and to force the executives to keep prices reasonable? Celebrating a temporary, affordable monthly stipend may not be wise for the long haul ... for once you board the train and there are no other options to complete your journey via other means ... who suffers most from a lack of competition?

The most popular does not always equate with being the "best." While Ps and Lr do some things extremely well, there are areas where they really may not be the "best" options ... if they were, how do you explain the thriving plugin industry? ... Also there are a few other areas in PS and Lr where there are dismal failures. You only have to look at them with open eyes to see where the flaws may be. Adobe is by no means pure perfection.

Does anyone remember shooting Kodachrome at $15-20 a crack and for only 36 exposures and you had to wait maybe a week to 10 days to see your results. Please! You were spending more than that in chemistry, film and paper.

Yes, I remember that era all too well ... and your example is exactly why I was ecstatic when Kodak made E-6 chemicals readily available so we did not have to be chained to their Kodachrome lab and could turn around Ektachrome or Fujichrome in under an hour. Viable options benefit everyone and are liberating for the marketplace. Opportunity, such as the one that Adobe presented to their competition on May 6 opened the door for some folks who firmly believed there was no such opening to attract customers away from the "best" ... I for one hope they do venture forth in a meaningful way.

I guess you're not that interested in getting the best from your images. Seriously, $10 a month and you cry fowel. Give me a break.

Give your heads a shake. People spend more than $10 a month on coffee. Everyone had the chance (and still does) to develop something equal to or better than either LR or PS, but they haven't.

For me it isn't, nor has it ever been, about the price ... but whether the investment of that price will enhance my bottom line. That is the rule I apply to any purchase I make for my business. Photoshop CC does not have one new feature or enhancement that would contribute to the cause. Yet Adobe has set up a structure that not only insists I reward them for their efforts, they also place a set-in-stone expiration date on the deal. It's about much more than the price of entry alone. Adobe no longer wishes to be rewarded based upon merit, but for time in service. That is a recipe for complacency that is only exacerbated in the absence of a  legitimate competitor. In that case we all lose.

You guys have lost it.

I'm not quite sure about that ... Wouldn't it make more sense to have options? ... Would you show up to a paid job with only one camera, one lens, one flash, one memory card? Or do you keep some redundant backup options handy in case of trouble? ... Why shouldn't we do that with our software solutions as well? Wouldn't that be the intelligent method of conducting business? Or is it more wise to advise your fellow photographers to "shake their head" and board the bus like lemmings?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: stamper on September 26, 2013, 07:46:43 am
Quote GrantLB Reply#54

Give your heads a shake. People spend more than $10 a month on coffee. Everyone had the chance (and still does) to develop something equal to or better than either LR or PS, but they haven't.


Unquote

A lot of people don't pay anything for PS as it is so an outlay of 10 dollars is an increase? ;)
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: kkopchynski on September 26, 2013, 08:00:05 am
OK I admit it, I don't get it. You've got the best photo editing software on the planet with Lightroom and Photoshop CC

Not that I've seen.  I tried merge to HDR and photostitching in PS, and it could not equal the results I get with HDR Efex 2, Photomatix, SNS, or PT Assembler.  It is very good software, but equal results can be had with others, and I AM getting the best from my images without it.  It always has been grossly overpriced.  None of the options I mention are free, but they are reasonably priced, perform well, and do not try to permanently siphon money from you.

"Only $xx a month" is a primary cause of so many families being financially stressed.  Too many people say that too many times a month.  This is a hobby, not a business, to most people and I think it is very appropriate that people are drawing the line on this on principle.  At any price, this would be one of the worst cases of vendor lock-in ever.

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Benny Profane on September 26, 2013, 08:03:54 am
OK I admit it, I don't get it. You've got the best photo editing software on the planet with Lightroom and Photoshop CC and you guys are looking for alternatives? I guess you're not that interested in getting the best from your images. Seriously, $10 a month and you cry fowel. Give me a break. Does anyone remember shooting Kodachrome at $15-20 a crack and for only 36 exposures and you had to wait maybe a week to 10 days to see your results. Please! You were spending more than that in chemistry, film and paper.

Give your heads a shake. People spend more than $10 a month on coffee. Everyone had the chance (and still does) to develop something equal to or better than either LR or PS, but they haven't.

You guys have lost it.

Maybe you should just be playing checkers in the park... that's free. Not supporting any BIG CORPORATIONS then, the big meanies.

Hey, I'm no big fan of monopolies, but, I agree with your sentiment here. The protesters are going to find it to be quite a futile exercise trying to find an alternative. Maybe amateurs can convince themselves that some cheap, poorly engineered software package can replace their Adobe programs, but, as a pro, I don't see it. It is unfortunate, in a way, because our tech industry out there in the valley is full of really smart people who seem to have access to hundreds of billions of dollars of private capital for a startup, but, all we get out of it is crap like Facebook and Groupon and stupid apps that tell the already wealthy how to find the coolest bar and coffee shop around the corner, or even schedule a private jet (I kid you not).

I am working for a manager who is a tad intellectually challenged, and more than once he has mentioned alternatives to Photoshop. I have told him in no uncertain terms that I am gone if that ever happens. It's really for his own good. Imagine the costs and hassles if he switched, just to save a few bucks and stick it to the man. Or, quite simply, how would he find good retouchers? It's already difficult right now.

Sorry, but they have us firmly by the you know whats, and, you should get comfortable with the grip. It ain't going away soon.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: nma on September 26, 2013, 10:29:23 am
Most think that Photshop+LR are the sine qua non software for professional work, but that relies on a traditional view of low dynamic range photography. As mentioned in a previous post, HDR in Photoshop is not that great. HDR, contrary to the traditional view is not out of the main stream. One can argue that Ansel Adams Zone System is an attempt to map the dynamic range of the scene to the rage offered by the output device, in Adam's case, a particular paper and developer type.

Already, we see an increase in dynamic range with cameras like the Nikon D800. I am not an insider but I think it likely that there is a lot of research going on in this area. We may see much bigger jumps in DR in the near future. This would mean that HDR photography will more often be a one shot capture, not the multiples required now. In that case Photoshop will be at a serious disadvantage because its floating point capabilities are nowhere near optimum. Its historical evolution suggests that a fully floating point Photoshop product would be a big slog, requiring backward compatibility. I am thinking that will open the door to competitors. Kodak fell, Digital Equipment, Sun, too. The floor is littered with companies who once seemed invincible. And it does not take long when the ground begins to shift. Who knows? But it is not a certainty that Adobe will have a long reign.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: john beardsworth on September 26, 2013, 10:40:04 am
Photoshop owes its position to the problems of cameras' dynamic range? Kinda overstating the case, don't you think? 
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Wayland on September 26, 2013, 12:34:57 pm
OK I admit it, I don't get it. You've got the best photo editing software on the planet with Lightroom and Photoshop CC and you guys are looking for alternatives? I guess you're not that interested in getting the best from your images. Seriously, $10 a month and you cry fowel. Give me a break. Does anyone remember shooting Kodachrome at $15-20 a crack and for only 36 exposures and you had to wait maybe a week to 10 days to see your results. Please! You were spending more than that in chemistry, film and paper.

Give your heads a shake. People spend more than $10 a month on coffee. Everyone had the chance (and still does) to develop something equal to or better than either LR or PS, but they haven't.

You guys have lost it.

Maybe you should just be playing checkers in the park... that's free. Not supporting any BIG CORPORATIONS then, the big meanies.

Don't you just love a well thought out response?

I'm not going to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 26, 2013, 11:16:41 pm
OK, lemme s'plain.
Most posters don't complain about $120 cost per year, but about being bullied into the subscription model.
Furthermore, so far Adobe didn't add much to the Photoshop features since they announced their watery invention. Whatever found its way into PS CC, is not even worth $10.




Can you please elaborate what the differences are between PS CC and PS6? If you don't know, how can you tell they are worth $10?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 26, 2013, 11:19:45 pm
Well ... how would this all work if there were only one option for cameras, lenses, flash, printers, computers, etc., etc., etc. .... Would we be better off if there was only Canon, or only Nikon? Who benefits more from the lack of a viable competitor? ... The virtual monopolistic software developer ... or their customers? Once everyone is locked in to a subscription plan, don't you think you would benefit from a competitor to keep Adobe engineers on their toes driving them to innovate faster and further and to force the executives to keep prices reasonable? Celebrating a temporary, affordable monthly stipend may not be wise for the long haul ... for once you board the train and there are no other options to complete your journey via other means ... who suffers most from a lack of competition?

The most popular does not always equate with being the "best." While Ps and Lr do some things extremely well, there are areas where they really may not be the "best" options ... if they were, how do you explain the thriving plugin industry? ... Also there are a few other areas in PS and Lr where there are dismal failures. You only have to look at them with open eyes to see where the flaws may be. Adobe is by no means pure perfection.

Yes, I remember that era all too well ... and your example is exactly why I was ecstatic when Kodak made E-6 chemicals readily available so we did not have to be chained to their Kodachrome lab and could turn around Ektachrome or Fujichrome in under an hour. Viable options benefit everyone and are liberating for the marketplace. Opportunity, such as the one that Adobe presented to their competition on May 6 opened the door for some folks who firmly believed there was no such opening to attract customers away from the "best" ... I for one hope they do venture forth in a meaningful way.

For me it isn't, nor has it ever been, about the price ... but whether the investment of that price will enhance my bottom line. That is the rule I apply to any purchase I make for my business. Photoshop CC does not have one new feature or enhancement that would contribute to the cause. Yet Adobe has set up a structure that not only insists I reward them for their efforts, they also place a set-in-stone expiration date on the deal. It's about much more than the price of entry alone. Adobe no longer wishes to be rewarded based upon merit, but for time in service. That is a recipe for complacency that is only exacerbated in the absence of a  legitimate competitor. In that case we all lose.

I'm not quite sure about that ... Wouldn't it make more sense to have options? ... Would you show up to a paid job with only one camera, one lens, one flash, one memory card? Or do you keep some redundant backup options handy in case of trouble? ... Why shouldn't we do that with our software solutions as well? Wouldn't that be the intelligent method of conducting business? Or is it more wise to advise your fellow photographers to "shake their head" and board the bus like lemmings?

So today basically Nikon and Canon have the monopoly on DSLR cameras. I guess you are running out and purchasing a Pentax outfit with their huge assortment of lens just to keep the competition active in this market...right. Or do you shoot with a big bad Canon or Nikon?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: john beardsworth on September 27, 2013, 02:36:12 am
So today basically Nikon and Canon have the monopoly on DSLR cameras. I guess you are running out and purchasing a Pentax outfit with their huge assortment of lens just to keep the competition active in this market...right. Or do you shoot with a big bad Canon or Nikon?
Basically Nikon and Canon have a duopoly and there are other established competitors. Over time we've seen new features have come from competition. You were being invited to consider a monopoly....
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: john beardsworth on September 27, 2013, 02:39:25 am
Take a look at Improving RAW-to-JPEG conversion on Google+ (https://plus.google.com/u/0/106880942427489096029/posts/MuCdS9Wx7SM):

"Starting today, and thanks to +Nik Photography, our RAW-to-JPEG conversion is now significantly improved. RAW images from more than 70 different cameras will look better as a result (full list below), and we’re tuning additional models over time."

I'm not sure who the author is, other than being a Google guy. My guess, based on his German origins, is he's one of the Nik engineers.

John
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Vladimirovich on September 27, 2013, 03:06:23 am
Can you please elaborate what the differences are between PS CC and PS6? If you don't know, how can you tell they are worth $10?
for me, for example, the difference is really in ACR (I can't stand LR and I don't want a limited ACR in PSE - so I have to use PS)
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2013, 04:23:32 am
So today basically Nikon and Canon have the monopoly on DSLR cameras. I guess you are running out and purchasing a Pentax outfit with their huge assortment of lens just to keep the competition active in this market...right. Or do you shoot with a big bad Canon or Nikon?

I am sure that many of us would do just that if Canon and Nikon made the firmware of their cameras subscription based or decided to significantly raise their prices without a clear rationale.

Fortunately, they have been smart enough to understand that their ability to deliver perceived value and generate purchase desire across generations of product would be sufficient to maintain a healthy growth.

Japanese companies are also typically less impacted by share holders pressure and tend to feel that keeping as many customers happy as possible is important. This does not always work in their favor in the long run since it sometimes prevent them from release breakthrough products (although the Nikon 1 is IMHO a clear proof that this does not apply to Nikon, eventhough most folks at LL don't consider the Nikon 1 useful for their applications), but it is great when you invest in their line of products as a customer of theirs.

Having been in Japan for many years, my educated view is that this is the result of the humble people running these companies believing in concepts such a respect and gratitude. They are also typically paid 5-10 times less than their North American counterparts, which is another reason why they are less likely to take decisions putting personal greed ahead of the general interest of the eco-system they evolve in.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: jjj on September 27, 2013, 06:06:11 am
Having been in Japan for many years, my educated view is that this is the result of the humble people running these companies believing in concepts such a respect and gratitude. They are also typically paid 5-10 times less than their North American counterparts, which is another reason why they are less likely to take decisions putting personal greed ahead of the general interest of the eco-system they evolve in.
Cough! Olympus. Cough!

Quote
Japanese companies are also typically less impacted by share holders pressure and tend to feel that keeping as many customers happy as possible is important.
I gather they don't do annual the dividend nonsense, that hobbles Western companies, where they try to maximise revenue every year even if in the long term that is not necessarily the best way to run a business.
I think they work more on three year periods which gives time for investments to make a return.
Politics is the same, instant and usually ineffective fixes rather than long term useful solutions tend to be the norm. Because a fix that takes ten years to see full effect will be long after the next election.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ButchM on September 27, 2013, 09:33:16 am
So today basically Nikon and Canon have the monopoly on DSLR cameras. I guess you are running out and purchasing a Pentax outfit with their huge assortment of lens just to keep the competition active in this market...right. Or do you shoot with a big bad Canon or Nikon?

It's ok if you can't quite grasp the concept of how the consumer/customer benefits from a competitive marketplace.

Imagine, if Adobe had a real head-to-head competitor your monthly subscription for the Photographer package might only be $4.99 a month with even more features and benefits. I guess that is just too much to comprehend for some folks.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: digitaldog on September 27, 2013, 09:43:51 am
Imagine, if Adobe had a real head-to-head competitor your monthly subscription for the Photographer package might only be $4.99 a month with even more features and benefits. I guess that is just too much to comprehend for some folks.

I can comprehend pigs flying but haven't see any evidence of this possibility on any kind of scale. Nor, since around 1990 with the competition of ColorStudio have I seen any competition to Photoshop worth looking into. Oh, I guess we could add Live Picture for some limited competitive functionality. So imaging a product half as good and half the price of a Photoshop subscription is within the realm of reality. Comprehending a product that's better at half the price? Not impossible but if the 23 year history of products that provide Photoshop functionality is any indication, you might as well imagine pigs flying over your home once a month and dropping a $10 bill into your back yard. Now back to the real world...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 27, 2013, 10:18:57 am
Now back to the real world...

The essence of ButchM 's post was,

.. the concept of how the consumer/customer benefits from a competitive marketplace.

He did preface his exaggerated exemplar post with the word 'Imagine' . Not sure why you felt the need to respond with such aggressiveness, particularly on a point on which he is correct.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ButchM on September 27, 2013, 10:21:55 am
I can comprehend pigs flying but haven't see any evidence of this possibility on any kind of scale. Nor, since around 1990 with the competition of ColorStudio have I seen any competition to Photoshop worth looking into. Oh, I guess we could add Live Picture for some limited competitive functionality. So imaging a product half as good and half the price of a Photoshop subscription is within the realm of reality. Comprehending a product that's better at half the price? Not impossible but if the 23 year history of products that provide Photoshop functionality is any indication, you might as well imagine pigs flying over your home once a month and dropping a $10 bill into your back yard. Now back to the real world...

Andrew ... C'mon now ... I didn't say it was reality or even likely. Simply pointing out that competition has considerable impact on pricing and performance in the business world. When you have another provider nipping at your heels, you have to stay sharp to maintain your place in the market. If you wish to believe that Photoshop could not be a better product today if Adobe had a serious competitor, that's ok ... but since you are a history buff, you may want to refer to other examples over the years where competition has absolutely benefited most everyone involved.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 27, 2013, 10:57:34 am
Not sure why you felt the need to respond with such aggressiveness, particularly on a point on which he is correct.

It makes one wonder indeed. Apparently the concept that competition offers benefits, is a bit hard to grasp for some. In addition, while the workflow may not be as convenient, there are several partial alternative solutions that offer higher quality. That also seems to fly over the head of some that think that Adobe's solutions are the be all and end all, they aren't. Like all software, some things are good, some are not that good.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: digitaldog on September 27, 2013, 11:27:11 am
Andrew ... C'mon now ... I didn't say it was reality or even likely. Simply pointing out that competition has considerable impact on pricing and performance in the business world.
To that I agree. But the premise of Adobe having a real head-to-head competitor for a monthly subscription at $4.99 a month with even more features and benefits is about as likely as flying pigs. On paper it sounds great and easy and something someone should provide. The reality is in 23 years, that never got close to happening. Why?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ButchM on September 27, 2013, 11:38:43 am
To that I agree. But the premise of Adobe having a real head-to-head competitor for a monthly subscription at $4.99 a month with even more features and benefits is about as likely as flying pigs.

Sometimes sarcasm can be a wasted effort in the written form ... I was merely responding to one silly analogy with another ...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 27, 2013, 02:40:50 pm
It's ok if you can't quite grasp the concept of how the consumer/customer benefits from a competitive marketplace.

Imagine, if Adobe had a real head-to-head competitor your monthly subscription for the Photographer package might only be $4.99 a month with even more features and benefits. I guess that is just too much to comprehend for some folks.

Don't be an ass!

Obviously everyone wants competition and a choice...but why has there been no competition to date for professional level complete image processing package to Adobe? Corel gave it a run, but failed badly. There are a bunch of niche products out there, but nothing as a complete package.

Until someone else steps up to the plate an offers a "real" competitive package to PS, I don't see how anyone who is serious about the quality of their photos would not continue to use PS.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 27, 2013, 03:25:57 pm
Until someone else steps up to the plate an offers a "real" competitive package to PS, I don't see how anyone who is serious about the quality of their photos would not continue to use PS.

Thank you for stating the bleedin' obvious.
Where has anybody in this thread stated that they will NOT continue using PS in the immediate future ?

The dissatisfaction lies not in the product but in matters which have been discussed 'ad nauseam' in a multitude of other threads. There really is no need to go into yet another CC discussion, at least in this thead, which is what you seem to be aiming for.

As for prefacing your post by calling another member an 'ass' - a gratuitous and unnecessary insult. Nuff said ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: chez on September 27, 2013, 04:04:41 pm
Thank you for stating the bleedin' obvious.
Where has anybody in this thread stated that they will NOT continue using PS in the immediate future ?

The dissatisfaction lies not in the product but in matters which have been discussed 'ad nauseam' in a multitude of other threads. There really is no need to go into yet another CC discussion, at least in this thead, which is what you seem to be aiming for.

As for prefacing your post by calling another member an 'ass' - a gratuitous and unnecessary insult. Nuff said ?

Well if someone puts down other fellow members with statements like "I guess that is just too much to comprehend for some folks.", what would call them. I think my statement was very appropriate in this case.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Rhossydd on September 27, 2013, 04:20:02 pm
Can we STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE ?

This thread is supposed to be looking at alternatives to Photoshop CC.
NOT whether Photoshop is the best image editor, nor whether subscriptions services are a good thing. There are many other threads to discuss this.

Come on folks, exercise a bit of self discipline here.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Benny Profane on September 27, 2013, 08:20:15 pm
Ok then, there are none. Sorry, but, the only "alternative" to Photoshop is either Lightroom or Aperture, the latter your best choice outside of Adobe. That's it. Sure, go ahead and spend hours learning some glitchy, not so well thought out software developed by a company that may very well not be around in a few years, or, is swallowed up by another company and changes it's culture and relationship to you on a dime. Trust me, the other software ditties mentioned in this thread are not even considered by pros, and pros are the market any developer develops for. Unfortunately, we are, and always have been, a small market, not profitable enough to warrant the investment by more than one company to compete. Even then, Adobe is always trying to grow into Microsoft or something, just trying to keep up with their Ferrari driving brethren in the Valley when it comes to stock price, by finding "business solutions". That's what it's all about, you know. The stock price. You don't really matter.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: LesPalenik on September 28, 2013, 01:13:47 am
Quote
OK, lemme s'plain.
Most posters don't complain about $120 cost per year, but about being bullied into the subscription model.
Furthermore, so far Adobe didn't add much to the Photoshop features since they announced their watery invention. Whatever found its way into PS CC, is not even worth $10.
Can you please elaborate what the differences are between PS CC and PS6? If you don't know, how can you tell they are worth $10?

Good question, since we don't hear about any significant features that were added. I looked it up for you, here is the official link:
http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/whats-new.html (http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/whats-new.html)

I didn't see there anything that would help me to be more productive. The last substantial addition to the Photoshop (at least in my experience) was the Content Aware Fill in CS5. That was definitely worth the price of the upgrade. Maybe once they get the Camera Shake Reduction right, it might be worthwhile to upgrade again. 

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: stamper on September 28, 2013, 04:13:51 am
Can we STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE ?

This thread is supposed to be looking at alternatives to Photoshop CC.
NOT whether Photoshop is the best image editor, nor whether subscriptions services are a good thing. There are many other threads to discuss this.

Come on folks, exercise a bit of self discipline here.

You stated in an other thread that you didn't like winding people up? You can't discuss alternatives without emphasising how good Photoshop is. It has to be stated how good it is before comparisons can be made. ???
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Rhossydd on September 28, 2013, 02:24:47 pm
It has to be stated how good it is before comparisons can be made. ???
Just read the original first post;
"a thread where members can exchange their views, experiences (both pro & con) on the alternatives."

It's not about comparisons, it's about what's out there and what it can do.


Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ButchM on September 28, 2013, 02:56:47 pm
Ok then, there are none.

Wile I agree, there are currently no other options that equal Ps in total capabilities. Though, I don't think a viable alternative actually needs to match Ps point for point on each and every function that Ps can offer. Considering that Ps has been a classic example of bloatware for quite some time, and the average photographer does not need, require or even utilize probably 80% of what Ps can do ... all we need is something is an alternate source for a finite list of widely used core functionality. After all ... didn't very well-connected insiders tell us that Photoshop was never "intended" for photographers ... Well, I for one, have learned my lesson.

Since the advent of Lr and Aperture, less than 5% of my images ever see Ps. There is no need to use it for each and every image. The only functions I need Ps for that can't be accomplished by Lr or Aperture is for compositing multi-image designs with text for posters, book covers and special projects. I do utilize Batch Processing from time to time, but I likely could accomplish that using scripting with another app. I also offer CMYK conversions for a few clients who request that service for the images I provide them. Give me layers, layer styles, good masking with a Refine Edge type control ... and I'm good to go  ... I don't need, want or really care if an alternate option can't do ALL of what Ps can do ...

Even though some folks may think this discussion is an exercise in futility, and who would rather we all shut up and get in line for CC, are overlooking the possibility that perhaps an enterprising entrepreneur will stumble across our concerns in a web search, read the discussion and start the ball rolling for something that can fill our needs.

I don't need an alternate option today. CS6 is working just fine. Fortunately, it doesn't have an expiration date set in stone. There is time for other developers to step up and take a swing and see what transpires.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: smthopr on September 28, 2013, 03:17:10 pm
Ironically, for moving images there are many choices. For a professional app, the price range is free(resolve light-max res 1920x1080) to $10,000+.

If any company could create an alternative, it would be these guys!

But note: none are as well designed as Photoshop :)
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: stamper on September 29, 2013, 04:29:38 am
Just read the original first post;
"a thread where members can exchange their views, experiences (both pro & con) on the alternatives."

It's not about comparisons, it's about what's out there and what it can do.




To evaluate the alternatives comparisons must be made, the strengths and weaknesses? It isn't enough to give a laundry list of them and leave it at that. The posters clearly don't agree with your narrow definition, hence the debate and imo a reasonable one.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 29, 2013, 06:25:17 am
To evaluate the alternatives comparisons must be made, the strengths and weaknesses? It isn't enough to give a laundry list of them and leave it at that. The posters clearly don't agree with your narrow definition, hence the debate and imo a reasonable one.

Well , it has little to do with comparisons, and even less of a 'narrow definition'.

Rhossyd is entirely correct when he says that this thread is 'about what's out there and what it can do'. At least that was the intention of the OP.  As I'm the OP, I should know.

This thread was started with the hope that it could be somewhere that forum members could exchange their views and experiences, good, not-so-good, strengths & weaknesses, in both using alternatives and on how best to substitute Ps.

Photoshop is a huge program, representing many things to many people.  Very few need all the capabilities all of the time, whilst no-one is disputing it's 'leader-of-the-pack' status -  many, myself included, use a variety of plug-ins to supplement Ps. It is about how best to combine other alternatives, and how suitable these alternatives are to each one's varying needs.

Jeff Schewe started a thread some time ago entitled “ If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now … “ 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78240.msg627797#msg627797

In the same vein, this thread could be entitled “ How best to make do without Photoshop … (for photographers)“

It is not about Photoshop v Others.
It is not about about perpetual v subscription.
It is not about whether or not Photoshop is currently the only realistic option.

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 29, 2013, 07:50:46 am
I've recently downloaded GIMP 2.8.6 – haven't had much time to explore it's capabilities or otherwise, but a few things impressed.

New interface, customisable toolbar ( satisfies my addiction to a minimalist layout) , dockable panes (dialogs in gimp-speak), curves, layers, quick mask & layer masks, enough blending modes, ability to import a sequence of photographs as layers – plus a menu layout that is logical and I like !

I'm running OS X – no need to install, just drag the icon to Applications or simply click on the 'Gimp'. Footprint is small, you can keep it on a USB stick - 99 mb .dmg that expands to 275 mb.

It seems an excellent adjunct to Lr - providing the 'layer' support that Lr is lacking.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: StephaneB on September 29, 2013, 07:53:46 am
I went through this search and whatever the other products, I always stumbled on the problem of having layered files understood by LightRoom, ACDSee or Capture One. I could live with either of those 3 RAW developer/cataloguer combinations, but none of them supports anything but PhotoShop files! None of them will support Photoline files and none of them will support PaintShop Pro files.

I could live with either Photoline or PaintShopPro.

The major problem with the alternatives is the lack of inter-operability between them. It is just as if they could not see they are overlooking the one point that gives Adobe such an advantage. Capture One will not even support DNG! They have the right not to like DNG, of course. But ignoring the fact that many people now have lots of DNG files only negates them any chance to win those people over as customers.

So the problem for the lack of competition is not an evil plan from Adobe. It is more due to the competitors' stunning lack of vision.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: StephaneB on September 29, 2013, 07:55:29 am
I've recently downloaded GIMP 2.8.6 – haven't had much time to explore it's capabilities or otherwise, but a few things impressed.

Wait until you try to use adjustment layers in Gimp.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 29, 2013, 08:25:21 am
I always stumbled on the problem of having layered files understood by LightRoom, ACDSee or Capture One ... The major problem with the alternatives is the lack of inter-operability between them.

That's no major surprise, Stephane. It's a given that layered files contain proprietary technology which will not / cannot necessarily be read by other (competing) programs. Lightroom, though has no problem reading my CS6 layered files.

Reference your comment about Gimp adjustment layers, the only one I've checked, and probably the only one I'll ever need to use are Curves. It works. Perhaps not as 'glitzy', but perfectly usable. There is a 16-bit version of GIMP under development.

The big advantage, as I see it, is that you can export multiple copies from say Lightroom and import them in 'one go' into gimp for blending, dodging, burning etc. Obviously not parametric and not layered - you'll export them as flattened tiff's. But it does give Lightroom, and others, a (destructive) layer functionality that has been missing.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: StephaneB on September 29, 2013, 12:27:51 pm
Reference your comment about Gimp adjustment layers, the only one I've checked, and probably the only one I'll ever need to use are Curves. It works. Perhaps not as 'glitzy', but perfectly usable.

That's surprising since Gimp does not have adjustment layers.

There is a 16-bit version of GIMP under development.

That was already the case in 2001. Don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 29, 2013, 12:58:27 pm
That's surprising since Gimp does not have adjustment layers.

Are you sure you know what you're using - GIMP v2.8.6 ?
Have you actually used it or are you simply spouting ... ?
Either way, irrelevant - GIMP most definitely does have adjustment layers.
It would be more helpful if you commented on software you've actually used.
Screenshot attached.

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Wayland on September 29, 2013, 05:54:01 pm
It sounds to me as if the people spouting nonsense and trying to run this thread off the rails have not even tried looking at the alternatives.

If you can't add anything useful to this thread why not go and troll in some other thread instead.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Benny Profane on September 29, 2013, 08:56:10 pm

Even though some folks may think this discussion is an exercise in futility, and who would rather we all shut up and get in line for CC, are overlooking the possibility that perhaps an enterprising entrepreneur will stumble across our concerns in a web search, read the discussion and start the ball rolling for something that can fill our needs.

Well, listen. Adobe isn't dumb, in this regard. They'll just market all sorts of packages for various levels of the market. You know, like a Porsche Cayman vs a Porsche Carrera 4S. The possibilities are many.

Gimp. Who in the world would name their product Gimp?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: StephaneB on September 30, 2013, 03:02:51 am
Are you sure you know what you're using - GIMP v2.8.6 ?
Have you actually used it or are you simply spouting ... ?
Either way, irrelevant - GIMP most definitely does have adjustment layers.
It would be more helpful if you commented on software you've actually used.
Screenshot attached.


The screen shot you show has nothing to do with adjustment layers. You seem to mix up layers, adjustments and adjustment layers. Three different things.

If all you want is an alternative to PhotoShop and you do not use LightRoom, then PhotoLine is great. It is an excellent program, very rich with relevant features like adjustment layers, actually more developed than PhotoShop in that area.

Yes, I have used Gimp.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Rhossydd on September 30, 2013, 03:32:59 am
That was already the case in 2001. Don't hold your breath.
There's no rush. Our existing perpetual  licences will still work for many years before a replacement for PS is needed.
It is at least in beta now from what I can see.

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on September 30, 2013, 04:44:21 am
The screen shot you show has nothing to do with adjustment layers.

My original post simply stated

New interface, customisable toolbar, dockable panes (dialogs in gimp-speak), curves, layers, quick mask & layer masks, enough blending modes, ability to import a sequence of photographs as layers ...  It seems an excellent adjunct to Lr - providing the 'layer' support that Lr is lacking.

The emphasis was as an adjunct to Lightroom
I inferred (from your reply #93) that you were commenting on my curves post above.

Photoline is a good program but has been discussed previously
( http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=81795.msg664986#msg664986 )
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on October 03, 2013, 05:47:19 pm
Finally, I've come across an excellent adjunct to Lightroom and the other RAW converters – Acorn.

As of the latest release 4.1 the program is now 16-bit with an impressively simple UI,  layers, masking, plus levels and curves. Levels and curves are not adjustment layers, but the many 'colour adjustment filters' are non-destructive and 'Acorn uses a 64-bit workspace for everything'.

Full details and download link (14 day trial) on the page below
http://flyingmeat.com/acorn/

Release notes
http://flyingmeat.com/acorn/releasenotes.html
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Isaac on October 03, 2013, 07:47:32 pm
You forgot to say only for Mac.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2013, 07:48:48 pm
Acorn seems very interesting. My Mac Pro can only run 10.6.8 and is therefore not compatible. But I'll but a license anyway and install it on the MBA running 10.8.5.

I won't use it, but that is not the point at this stage.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Manoli on October 03, 2013, 09:30:23 pm
I've had brief email exchanges with Gus Mueller;  sent him a few remarks together with a link to this thread - so hopefully any comments, observations, suggestions made here will also be picked up by him.

re Acorn – just a few quick initial observations :





-
Interesting program in and of itself, but particularly when combined with Lr.

Correction:
Masking tool is called Select. Instant Alpha creates cut-out directly on the layer.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: StephaneB on October 04, 2013, 03:06:48 am
Never again will I become dependant on a software that only runs on only one brand of computers. Especially one that has such little regard for backward binary compatibility.

For me, anything that is Mac-only is a non starter. And would be even if my current computer was a Mac.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: kirkt on October 07, 2013, 11:17:48 am
Photoline just released v18.

Release notes:

http://www.pl32.com/pages/rnote.php

the upgrade cost for current users is 29 Euro - the cost to new users is 59 Euro.

kirk
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: alain on December 30, 2013, 02:03:52 pm
Hi

Has anybody did a quality assessment of photoline, aka quality off the used algorithms?
I took quite a few tests and all seems very good, but I'm no imaging expert.

The low cost and the capabilities makes photoline a very nice application.

Alain
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on December 30, 2013, 08:08:06 pm
Hi

Has anybody did a quality assessment of photoline, aka quality off the used algorithms?

Hi Alain,

While not an exhaustive assessment, the quality of the algorithms used, and their implementation, looks pretty solid.

Quote
The low cost and the capabilities makes photoline a very nice application.

The minimal memory footprint also reveals attention to detail. It also offers a lot of functionality for those who need to produce (vector based) web content.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: alain on December 30, 2013, 10:43:44 pm
Hi Alain,

While not an exhaustive assessment, the quality of the algorithms used, and their implementation, looks pretty solid.

The minimal memory footprint also reveals attention to detail. It also offers a lot of functionality for those who need to produce (vector based) web content.

Cheers,
Bart
Thanks for the answer Bart.

Alain
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 04, 2014, 08:38:06 am
Hi,

I have played with it. It is quite a bit different, nomenclature is pretty much different. My dad is using it for most of his pictures, Mom has tested Photoline instead of Photoshop but gave up because the tools didn't work for her.

I would say it is a robust program, but less refined than Photoshop and very different. I would say that professional photographers need Photoshop because that is the standard used in business.

Personally, I mostly use Lightroom. Photoshop is for me an overkill. I mostly use Photoshop to:

- Do quick and dirty panoramas (because of integration with Lightroom)
- Content aware fills
- Selective tonal adjustments, as described here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/46-fixing-sky-with-luminosity-mask
- Produce Christmas cards once a year

That's about it, very much possible I switch to Photoline 32.

Best regards
Erik




Hi

Has anybody did a quality assessment of photoline, aka quality off the used algorithms?
I took quite a few tests and all seems very good, but I'm no imaging expert.

The low cost and the capabilities makes photoline a very nice application.

Alain
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: alain on January 04, 2014, 10:56:30 am
Hi,

I have played with it. It is quite a bit different, nomenclature is pretty much different. My dad is using it for most of his pictures, Mom has tested Photoline instead of Photoshop but gave up because the tools didn't work for her.

I would say it is a robust program, but less refined than Photoshop and very different. I would say that professional photographers need Photoshop because that is the standard used in business.

Personally, I mostly use Lightroom. Photoshop is for me an overkill. I mostly use Photoshop to:

- Do quick and dirty panoramas (because of integration with Lightroom)
- Content aware fills
- Selective tonal adjustments, as described here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/46-fixing-sky-with-luminosity-mask
- Produce Christmas cards once a year

That's about it, very much possible I switch to Photoline 32.

Best regards
Erik




Thanks Erik for the info.  It is indeed a bit different, but there's always a learning curve.

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 05, 2014, 05:03:34 am
Hi,

I would add that Photoline 32 works well with many Photoshop plugins, is fully colour managed and so on.

Best regards
Erik


Thanks Erik for the info.  It is indeed a bit different, but there's always a learning curve.


Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC - The Alternatives
Post by: alain on January 05, 2014, 06:00:13 am
Hi,

I would add that Photoline 32 works well with many Photoshop plugins, is fully colour managed and so on.

Best regards
Erik



I knew that.  The first things I looked at where : 16-bit color managed workflow, those are absolutely needed and there in photoline.  Photoshop plugin support is nice, but for me not that important.
I was impressed while doing some tests, but asked some confirmation about the technical quality of the adjustments, just to be sure.