Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: DanielStone on August 29, 2013, 12:22:34 am

Title: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: DanielStone on August 29, 2013, 12:22:34 am
This might seem redundant, but how's about stating what you NEED, and 2ndly, what you WANT to see in the future from MF mfg's?
It can by idealistic, but lets keep this on topic.
I'm NOT talking about a camera that can change your client's opinion telepathically when you want it to :D, or one that'll make you a damned fine espresso! No, I'm talking SERIOUS here, working camera ideas.

Please state your intentions of WHY you want these things, and WHAT you'd be doing with them if they were available:

I'll start:

FUJI 6X9(56x86mm) rangefinders(yes, 2 versions, 'normal' and a 'wide' version. Just like the GW/GSW690 series of cameras.
I explained it in this thread here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=81592.msg658707#msg658707   (Reply #11)

Why I want it:
I love film, and will continue to shoot it. But having an integrated sensor, MF rangefinder-type camera would just be the 'creme de la creme' for traveling IMO...
What I'd do with it:
I'd personally choose the 90/3.5 lens. I'd travel with it. Keep it on me, just like I do the film versions(6x8III, however).



so what do YOU want to see?
remember, please keep it serious :)

-Dan
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: HarperPhotos on August 29, 2013, 02:36:19 am
Hello,

I want a Nikon with a 60mg sensor, selectable strength low-pass filter and a global shutter.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Aphoto on August 29, 2013, 03:29:12 am
1. I want a Canon-Camera without mirrorbox and a FF-40MP-shift-sensor (D800e like dynamic range) with 12mm movements in every direction for high resolution stitch-images or just simple shift.
2. I want a 80MP MF-back (48x36mm Sensor) with pixel-binning for high dynamic range (=40MP effective) and 20mm shift movements in each direction
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Chris Livsey on August 29, 2013, 04:20:58 am
I would like an "affordable" (aware this is relative) transparently priced MFDB, as a non professional user with no tax write down or daly rate to ameliorate the cost  ::)
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Rob C on August 29, 2013, 04:30:35 am
I would like a revived 500 Series 'blad, with a factory-fitted, fixed FF sensor at reasonabale cost (£3000 - £3500), with the capabilities that my D700 sensor has.

What to do with it? Sell off everything else photographic that I own and finally have the perfect, neat system for my likely uses...

Rob C
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 29, 2013, 04:47:17 am
Keep dreaming!

Best regards
Erik

I would like a revived 500 Series 'blad, with a factory-fitted, fixed FF sensor at reasonabale cost (£3000 - £3500), with the capabilities that my D700 sensor has.

What to do with it? Sell off everything else photographic that I own and finally have the perfect, neat system for my likely uses...

Rob C
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Mr. Rib on August 29, 2013, 05:04:48 am
Hmm, this might count as dreaming.. but I would like a 10 x 8 sensor, about 300-400mp, with good dynamic range and a few fps live view capability (so that you still have a groundglass-like experience when you are working with it). It would be cool if I didn't have to win the lottery to afford it. Who knows, maybe in 10-15 years.. :)
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: torger on August 29, 2013, 05:07:43 am
Low cost tech cam friendly back aimed at all the landscape photography amateurs out there in their motorcycle buying age. I think there is a market. The perfect tradeoff with current cameras and lens lines I think would be a 48x36mm back based on the 48 megapixel Dalsa FTF6080C (currently used by Sinar eXact), and sell that for say $6000-$8000. Lower cost made possible with smaller sensor size and existing off-the-shelf sensor. Modern GUI/screen and passive cooling (if possible with that sensor tech) good for outdoor use. Possibly with an active cooling adapter to support long exposures. Skip tethering if you want to differentiate from more expensive "professional" models. This is a product that could be launched today.

A large sensor fat pixel back for legacy camera systems would be interesting concept, say a 56x56mm 9 um back, it could be used with the still-in-production Hy6 too. I would personally not be too interested though as a tech camera user -- the current tech cam lens lineups do not have large enough image circles (on the wides) to have an adequate amount of shift for that kind of sensor size, at least according to my taste.

New sensor technology with extremely low color cast would be interesting, to strengthen the uniqueness of tech camera lens designs (symmetrical wides). A completely new tech cam format would also be exciting, where you go a little bit larger to relax manufacturing precision requirements and get robust high-performance systems. A sensor large as the scanning backs capture area, 72x96mm with 9 um pixels (85 megapixels) and very low color cast. Would work well with 4x5" lenses. Chip sizes that large I think is unrealistic from a pricing perspective though, would probably cost say $100k-$200k for a back.

And yes, CMOS, live view, high ISO would also be an exciting new technology, but not too vital for me. A CMOS with less than excellent image quality would not be good. Live view would be the most useful feature for me so I could leave the sliding back at home. Unfortunately I think a CMOS back will have extreme color cast and not be suitable for wide tech cam lenses, ie it will be a MF-DSLR product only.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: torger on August 29, 2013, 06:44:19 am
Oh, there are cameras too. Then I'd like to see a well-integrated tech camera without a bunch of cables. Electronic leaf shutter, or very tight focal plane shutter (still allow for very short flange distances), a battery in the camera to drive the shutter and also to provide settings from tilt/shift so LCC application can be fully automated. The tilt/shift settings should be transfered to the back raw files in the EXIF data of course.

I'd also like to see a tech camera with view camera rail focusing style but with precise integrated rail distance setting measurement (ie what micrometer setting the rail is on) and user-calibratable and a lens plate system that provide information about the lens inserted. This combination allows for a focusing distance screen on the camera, ie similar to pancake camera precision but in a digital window. A small onboard computer with app support so you can have your tilt/doff app inside the camera too would be nice, so when you turn the focusing wheel you see live update on focus distance and far/near dof edges. With these functions and a fast digital back with instant show of shot picture, no need to cock shutter etc you'd have so fast workflow that live view would not be strictly necessary (still would like it, composing in the blind is not great)

Even better would be app support on the digital backs, so you can skip screen on the tech camera and instead have a camera-specific app loaded to your digital back, and it would get all information from the camera and present it on the digital back screen.

If more electronic tech cameras won't happen I'd like to see a worthy replacement of the copal shutter, so we can continue to have a 100% mechanical camera plus a digital back with synch cable. The half-measure with electronic leaf shutter and a bunch of cables on an otherwise mechanical camera is just ugly. It would be nice if the shutter would have a fully round aperture.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: torger on August 29, 2013, 06:52:52 am
A better digital back mount would be nice too, something without light leaks and that can be securely fastened by screwing, rather than some sloppy spring-mounted system. With that some standard open programmable camera-to-back electronic interface, which can be used by tech camera makers for better integration (without having to pay a zillion dollars to get a license to use it), possibly including power transfer so you can have only one battery in the system instead of requiring two. An open app interface on the backs would be nice too, so we could see interesting third-party hacks, like "magic lantern" that exists for canon cameras today.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 29, 2013, 07:04:40 am
I would like a pentax 645DII with all the qualities of the 645d and...
- usable live view,
- a slightly larger 50+ mp back,
- the DR of a D800,
- a 8,000 US$ price tag,
- packaged as a standalone back version.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: eronald on August 29, 2013, 07:18:16 am
There is a very good and fairly affordable MF system out there, namely the Rollei. There's also the V Hassy.
I wish someone stuck a back on it those can do 1600 ISO, is square full-frame and stayed affordable.
Kits for 4x5 and 8x10 are also perfectly feasible in a world where one can buy a custom bike.

Edmund

I would like a pentax 645DII with all the qualities of the 645d and...
- usable live view,
- a slightly larger 50+ mp back,
- the DR of a D800,
- a 8,000 US$ price tag,
- packaged as a standalone back version.

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 29, 2013, 07:24:26 am
Hi,

My dream...

3.5 micron pitch CMOS sensor with live view and on chip phase detecting AF support.

Full 645 micron sensor

Standard digital interface for different vendors

Large screen, multiple actual pixel crops for Scheimpflug

Modular concept

Standard bus for electronic view finders


Best regards
Erik
This might seem redundant, but how's about stating what you NEED, and 2ndly, what you WANT to see in the future from MF mfg's?
It can by idealistic, but lets keep this on topic.
I'm NOT talking about a camera that can change your client's opinion telepathically when you want it to :D, or one that'll make you a damned fine espresso! No, I'm talking SERIOUS here, working camera ideas.

Please state your intentions of WHY you want these things, and WHAT you'd be doing with them if they were available:

I'll start:

FUJI 6X9(56x86mm) rangefinders(yes, 2 versions, 'normal' and a 'wide' version. Just like the GW/GSW690 series of cameras.
I explained it in this thread here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=81592.msg658707#msg658707   (Reply #11)

Why I want it:
I love film, and will continue to shoot it. But having an integrated sensor, MF rangefinder-type camera would just be the 'creme de la creme' for traveling IMO...
What I'd do with it:
I'd personally choose the 90/3.5 lens. I'd travel with it. Keep it on me, just like I do the film versions(6x8III, however).



so what do YOU want to see?
remember, please keep it serious :)

-Dan
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: JV on August 29, 2013, 07:39:59 am
Affordable (ideally below $10K, max $20K) square FF digital back for the Hy6 capable of doing high ISO.

As far as the camera goes very pleased but multiple focus points would be very nice.  My X-Pro1 has 49 and they focus accurately.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Ken R on August 29, 2013, 09:01:23 am
I currently have a Phase One IQ160. I would love it to:

1- Be More affordable
2- Have high quality live view with up to pixel to pixel zoom
3- Be a bit smaller / lighter
4- Have better high iso performance with no downsampling, at full 60 mp or at the very least 30 mp.
5- Have better long exposure performance (IQ260 has this)
6- Have dual card slots (It can be one CF and one SD)
7- Have better battery performance
8- Wifi (IQ260 has this)

I also have a Hasselblad H1. I actually like the camera but it would be better with:

1- Weathersealing
2- Lighter but with better exterior finish (a la Canon 1 series)
3- Higher quality LCD and viewfinder display
4- More AF points
5- Smoother/Quieter Shutter

I also have an Arca Swiss RM3Di tech camera. I actually would not change anything on that thing! :) But, Would love if the lenses had an electronic shutter controlled by the back.

I hope someone is reading this that can make these things happen!
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: TMARK on August 29, 2013, 11:08:49 am
1.  Digital Mamiya 7.

2.  A DSLR with a real viewfinder and a CFA geared towards skin tones that is reliable, tethers well, has a big buffer, and 4:3 native, FP shutter with leaf shutter option. I know the D800, Pentax and Leica S get close, so does the Phase/Mamiya DF and H5.  But they all lack something.

3.  An updated RZ.  Maybe a smaller digital only body with focus confirm and a better AE finder.

This might seem redundant, but how's about stating what you NEED, and 2ndly, what you WANT to see in the future from MF mfg's?
It can by idealistic, but lets keep this on topic.
I'm NOT talking about a camera that can change your client's opinion telepathically when you want it to :D, or one that'll make you a damned fine espresso! No, I'm talking SERIOUS here, working camera ideas.

Please state your intentions of WHY you want these things, and WHAT you'd be doing with them if they were available:

I'll start:

FUJI 6X9(56x86mm) rangefinders(yes, 2 versions, 'normal' and a 'wide' version. Just like the GW/GSW690 series of cameras.
I explained it in this thread here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=81592.msg658707#msg658707   (Reply #11)

Why I want it:
I love film, and will continue to shoot it. But having an integrated sensor, MF rangefinder-type camera would just be the 'creme de la creme' for traveling IMO...
What I'd do with it:
I'd personally choose the 90/3.5 lens. I'd travel with it. Keep it on me, just like I do the film versions(6x8III, however).



so what do YOU want to see?
remember, please keep it serious :)

-Dan
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: bcooter on August 29, 2013, 11:47:18 am
Mine is simple, of course probably hard to do.

1.  Make a medium format sensored camera with the same functionality as a Panasonic GH3. with an EVF that works like a OVF, (the GH3 is very close to this).

2.  Give it about 5k in stills on the vertical side a 4k video file with crops that actually range from 2:1 to 4:3.

3.  For stills and video offer a raw file, for stills also a jpeg in parallel with the raw, for video RAW or Prorezz 422, 10 bit minimum, 12 bit preferred.

4.  Multiple EVF from waist level to a moveable finder.

5.  Allow the sensor to rotate on command AND show the rotation in the finder.

6.  Large buffer and SSD card storage that is secure and large.

7.  4 channel sound in, with xlr inputs, sound sampling through 3.5mm headphones.

8.  Optional AA filter that can be removed.

9.  Designed for sensor upgrades, not complete back or module upgrades.

10.  Come in at 10 to 20k U.S., for a working camera including base accessories.

11.  Optional touch screen autofocus that can be mounted or tethered to a card.

12.  Radio transmission of viewfinder recording in stills and motion.

13.  Simple menu system.

14.  Changeable mounts, from standard fast autofocus lenses, to Canon for Tilt Shift.

15.  Sensor larger than 35mm but less that full frame 645 (so multiple lens sets cover the sensor).

16.  Sensor overlap so in camera 5 axis stabilization.

17.  Built in ND filters, base ISO 800.

That does it.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 29, 2013, 12:25:01 pm
Hi,

I agree on all points...

Best regards
Erik



Mine is simple, of course probably hard to do.

1.  Make a medium format sensored camera with the same functionality as a Panasonic GH3. with an EVF that works like a OVF, (the GH3 is very close to this).

2.  Give it about 5k in stills on the vertical side a 4k video file with crops that actually range from 2:1 to 4:3.

3.  For stills and video offer a raw file, for stills also a jpeg in parallel with the raw, for video RAW or Prorezz 422, 10 bit minimum, 12 bit preferred.

4.  Multiple EVF from waist level to a moveable finder.

5.  Allow the sensor to rotate on command AND show the rotation in the finder.

6.  Large buffer and SSD card storage that is secure and large.

7.  4 channel sound in, with xlr inputs, sound sampling through 3.5mm headphones.

8.  Optional AA filter that can be removed.

9.  Designed for sensor upgrades, not complete back or module upgrades.

10.  Come in at 10 to 20k U.S., for a working camera including base accessories.

11.  Optional touch screen autofocus that can be mounted or tethered to a card.

12.  Radio transmission of viewfinder recording in stills and motion.

13.  Simple menu system.

14.  Changeable mounts, from standard fast autofocus lenses, to Canon for Tilt Shift.

15.  Sensor larger than 35mm but less that full frame 645 (so multiple lens sets cover the sensor).

16.  Sensor overlap so in camera 5 axis stabilization.

17.  Built in ND filters, base ISO 800.

That does it.

IMO

BC


Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Rob C on August 29, 2013, 02:29:45 pm
Is that what's meant by Texan Appetite?

Thinking about it, Texas, I really believe a better option would be Jerry Hall, back when she was twenty.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Misirlou on August 29, 2013, 02:56:37 pm
A Rolleiflex TLR mated to a full 6X6 back. I know most everyone preferred the Planar over the Xenotar, but I have one of each, and prefer the look of the Schneider lens.

Total pipe dream, of course.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: EricWHiss on August 29, 2013, 04:59:51 pm
square FF digital back for the Hy6 capable of doing high ISO.

+1, that's what I'd like.  I'd be happy with a Credo Square, even one with a lower pixel count and FAT pixels for low light. 
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: DanielStone on August 29, 2013, 08:59:08 pm
+1, that's what I'd like.  I'd be happy with a Credo Square, even one with a lower pixel count and FAT pixels for low light.  

In all honesty, a 16-24mu sensor, with a native BASE iso of 400, is what I'd love to see as well.

56X56mm square sensor, I'd be pretty happy with that. Then HB would REALLY regret having killed off the V platform ;)

-Dan
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: bcooter on August 29, 2013, 09:02:12 pm
Is that what's meant by Texan Appetite?

Thinking about it, Texas, I really believe a better option would be Jerry Hall, back when she was twenty.

;-)

Rob C

To take a line from Mr. T....Mark, I'm not comparing cameras, or something like that.

I'm not, but I know what I've used and honestly pick up a gh3, spend 30 minutes setting it up and go shoot.

No it doesn't have the still quality (quality covers a lot of area) of a Phase or Leaf or Blad medium format camera.

Then shoot some video and no it doesn't have the quality of a RED 1 or an Arri.

But what it does have is an amazing feature set that covers territory in both stills and video, probably the best EVF I've ever used and is as solid as a rock.

I don't know what other people shoot, do know what I shoot and the GH3 is the best all around camera I've ever used.

In fact the only reason I use the RED's for a lot of setups is because the RED workflow is much easier than an h264 camera, but this thing shoots way above it's weight.

I know the purists that yearn for a Rollei or a new version of a Mamiya 6x7 will raise hell over an electronic view finder and video but then again how the hell can you be a purist in the age of digital.

Digital is not film, not analog and no matter what digital camera you use you are in the electronic domain.

Anyway, sorry to go off topic but I'm curious what happens to cameras when the sensors get larger.  For some reason they get slower, some less reliable, much more costly and are useable for a decreasing part of the imaging world.

But I'm sure part of it comes to volume, part of it is price, probably part of it is having to rely on outside sensor makers, though Panasonic doesn't make the sensor (Sony does) and I would imagine they probably outsource some lenses (I know Olympus mft does).

Personally I don't care about physical sensor size.  I care about look and usability.  If the sensor is 1" or 10" I don't care as long as I can produce the look I want and it will be accepted for use.

I love the look of medium format backs, same with leica ccd's and love shooting medium format  because I really believe I see a difference and dig the analog feel of the camera I use (oops used the A word) but I also like the look of these little mft cameras and Panasonic really hit the mark.

I honestly believe they must have talked to people that are on the ground shooting for a living, because the panas are not perfect, but damn good.   They're autofocus is simply amazing and the camera cost around $1,200 and I've beat the heck out of mine, starting to wear off the white on the dials and they've never missed a frame and if your looking for a waist level finder, get a gx7.  That's one good little camera.

Crazy.

I'm sure Phase/Leaf has probably done this, but if not they should go on a busy set where a client wants horizontal and vertical, still and motion, time lapse, slo-mo, with and without sound and do it with every camera out there, then pick up a gh3.

I think they'd be surprised.

But once again, I'm not comparing and I'm sure the medium format makers know about what they sell and who they sell to more than I.

____________________________________


Jerry Hall?   I shot her after she left Mick.    They flew her into location in an  Aérospatiale helicopter and was the first real celebrity I worked with.  Really nice, really one of the nicest easiest people I ever worked with and of course I was prejudice because she spoke the same language I did . . . non discernible Texan.

People of all walks could take a lesson from her, because she could have bought the whole shoot for the money she probably finds loose in the bottom of her purse, but was just one of the guys (and girls).




IMO

BC

P.S.  I know early on RED announced medium format sized, actually larger than medium format sized motion and still cameras.  They didn't hit it and don't know why,  maybe because it's  way too expensive, but RED did set the motion world upside down with the first affordable cinema camera that shot raw and made a useable still image. RED's like any camera aren't perfect, but it's impressive how they started from scratch and built a whole system including software and like my medium format backs, I expect to own and use my RED's for many years.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 29, 2013, 09:32:42 pm
Hi,

Such a sensor would produce an incredible amount of moiré and fake detail.

Base ISO is depending on physics, not sure 400 is possible.

Best regards
Erik


In all honesty, a 16-24mu sensor, with a native BASE iso of 400, is what I'd love to see as well.

56X56mm square sensor, I'd be pretty happy with that. Then HB would REALLY regret having killed off the V platform ;)

-Dan
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Ken R on August 29, 2013, 09:49:23 pm
I do not know the technical details but it is well accepted as fact nowadays that all sensors that use a bayer filter need a good amount of pixel density to prevent undesirable artifacts like Moire from potentially degrading the image quality significantly.

I do not know if a full color high quality pixel is possible but if and when that happens then designers might have more flexibility in regards to sensor specifications. The Foveon sensor is a good start but I think it still has a long way to go. I would love to have a talk with Carver Mead about this one day.  ;D
Title: The 645LV: CMOS rotating back, with rotating EVF
Post by: BJL on August 29, 2013, 11:47:17 pm
I'm not in the DMF market, but bcooter raised an interesting idea: with a CMOS sensor that supports live view, a full 645 sized sensor could be mounted on a rotating back in an "EVF camera" (non-SLR, live view only) without the penalty of a bigger mirror box that a RB SLR has, and the 4:3 shaped EVF could be rotated too, avoiding the need for an oversized square EVF panel. (And of course the rear LCD would rotate with the back, so no problems there.)

Another bonus of moving to an EVF camera is that the body could be shallow enough to allow a wide variety of lenses to be used via adaptors, including 35mm format lenses in some circumstances. (I understand that some longer focal length lenses produce image circles considerably larger than the format needs, so could add some affordable options for my fantasy 645LV camera.)
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Iluvmycam on August 29, 2013, 11:54:41 pm
6mp affordable FF back for my SWC.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: MoreOrLess on August 30, 2013, 03:18:12 am
I'm wondering what form a modular MF mirrorless could take, maybe something similar to a Ricoh GXR M mount?
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: hjulenissen on August 30, 2013, 03:30:03 am
I'm wondering what form a modular MF mirrorless could take, maybe something similar to a Ricoh GXR M mount?
I also think that mirrorless would be an interesting concept for MF. Like the Pentax 645D was reusing guts of smaller APS-C DSLRs, one might expect a possible MF-MILF to be based on tried-and-true software and components from e.g. m43 models. Except the larger sensor and mount, of course.

Might not be really exciting until someone decide to develop an MF CMOS sensor that use comparable technology to state-of-the-art smaller sensors. If you are shooting wide-angle landscapes, architecture or macro, it might make more sense to pay for/carry a large sensor/lens, than the possibility to have fast PDAF tracking.

Would have been cool (although even less likely) to have CD-tilt (automated adoption of lense/sensor tilt in order to maximize sharpness of some part of the scene).

-h
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 30, 2013, 04:17:34 am
Hi,

Why 6 MP? There are a lot of downsides to large pixels and no upsides. It is easy to downsample from small pixels and you get rid of a lot of artifacts.  I don't think we ever see 56x56 sensor, that market would be a tiny part of an MFD sektor that already is tiny.

Would the sensor of your dreams come true, I would guess that it would be some enthuasist's project using some surprul sensor from military, aerospace or medicine.

The SWC adds some complexity of it's own, as it has very wide chief ray angle, that works not so well with today's sensors. The Kodak sensors used in old Phase One backs and many others seem to work better with symmetric wide angle designs, like the Biogon, than the Dalsa designs in the Phase One backs.

Best regards
Erik

6mp affordable FF back for my SWC.
Title: Re: The 645LV: CMOS rotating back, with rotating EVF
Post by: bcooter on August 30, 2013, 05:39:53 am
I'm not in the DMF market,.......snip

Another bonus of moving to an EVF camera is that the body could be shallow enough to allow a wide variety of lenses to be used via adaptors, including 35mm format lenses in some circumstances. (I understand that some longer focal length lenses produce image circles considerably larger than the format needs, so could add some affordable options for my fantasy 645LV camera.)

I was listening to a wall street journal article talking about cameras, especially smaller point and shoots and how that market is more difficult in regards to cell phone cameras.

One of the tech reporters said . . . not a direct quote . . . that the thing about cell phone cameras is they are more creative.

Think about that, because that really is the perception.  In camera stitching, instigram photoshop looks, (and many others) good video with stedicam smoothness, grips, additional lenses, the cell phone cameras do so pretty amazing stuff and you can post them online in moments.

I'm not saying all pro cameras have to make a phone call, but take into account what is considered a creative camera today and there is a lesson somewhere in there.

Last Friday night, after a week long shoot, we took clients and talent to a restaurant.  One of the models, a young kid model was sitting in the dark patio restaurant looking at his cell phone, playing a game and it was total darkness.  I shot it with my I phone and yes it was noisy, but then again it was pretty.

I think camera makers need to step out of the past and move towards the future.  Though it makes for a crappy camera, has anyone here ever shot a photo with an Ipad.  Amazing screen and kind of brings you back to view camera sized viewfinder.  When I did it I thought, how cool a pro camera with that big screen would be, especially with a lens set (either electronic or analog) and a full feature set of quick presets for look.

Now go one step further and think how cool a blackmagic camera, that shoots 4k video and stills would be if it was just one step higher in usbility with autofocus, steadishot, 4 dozen film looks and the ability to wireless send the previews to a server.

I think the day is coming and not to beat a dead horse, but the reason I've bought my last few cameras, RED's and the GH3's is they did something that other cameras didn't do.

That's what moved me and I like to think back as a traditionalist, but looking forward I can see a whole possibilities of technology that changes the way we work.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: MoreOrLess on August 30, 2013, 07:14:07 am
I also think that mirrorless would be an interesting concept for MF. Like the Pentax 645D was reusing guts of smaller APS-C DSLRs, one might expect a possible MF-MILF to be based on tried-and-true software and components from e.g. m43 models. Except the larger sensor and mount, of course.

Might not be really exciting until someone decide to develop an MF CMOS sensor that use comparable technology to state-of-the-art smaller sensors. If you are shooting wide-angle landscapes, architecture or macro, it might make more sense to pay for/carry a large sensor/lens, than the possibility to have fast PDAF tracking.

Would have been cool (although even less likely) to have CD-tilt (automated adoption of lense/sensor tilt in order to maximize sharpness of some part of the scene).

-h

Wouldn't really be anything that new either, you look at the MF film market and SLR's were much less dominant than they were for 35mm. You compare say a Pentax 645D to a FF DSLR and the mirrorbox is obviously adding more to the size beyond what would be considered ergonomically ideal by most people.

If Canon were to get involved with MF I wouldn't be supprized to see them take this route.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: BJL on August 30, 2013, 10:30:22 am
I'm wondering what form a modular MF mirrorless could take, maybe something similar to a Ricoh GXR M mount?
I also think that mirrorless would be an interesting concept for MF. Like the Pentax 645D ...
Need I point out that Pentax is now a division of Ricoh? That team might be the best bet for innovative and relatively affordable camera systems in formats beyond 36x24mm.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 30, 2013, 03:06:01 pm
Hi,

Any sensor with large pixels yields aliasing artifacts. The color Moiré from bayer deigns is very obvious, but all digital sensors show aliasing if the lens outresolves the sensor. So, you either reduce pixel size or add an OLP filter.

Best regards
Erik


I do not know the technical details but it is well accepted as fact nowadays that all sensors that use a bayer filter need a good amount of pixel density to prevent undesirable artifacts like Moire from potentially degrading the image quality significantly.

I do not know if a full color high quality pixel is possible but if and when that happens then designers might have more flexibility in regards to sensor specifications. The Foveon sensor is a good start but I think it still has a long way to go. I would love to have a talk with Carver Mead about this one day.  ;D
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: nik on August 30, 2013, 10:02:50 pm
Basically the mk II of this camera.(http://)

CMOS, (a *CLEAN* 1600) Live View, HD out, 802.11ac wireless built-in, USB 3, tilting LCD touchscreen. HDR & Focus Stacking (via C1). Availability of production model a week from official announcement / press release.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: TMARK on August 30, 2013, 10:08:30 pm
A Mark II ZD could be the affordable entry level Phase/Leaf/Mamiya vehicle.  Maybe the guts and screen of a P+ back or a Leaf Aptus II/Mamiya DM series.  Take a bite out of the 645D, at least in Japan.

Basically the mk II of this camera.(http://)

CMOS, (a *CLEAN* 1600) Live View, HD out, 802.11ac wireless built-in, USB 3, tilting LCD touchscreen. HDR & Focus Stacking (via C1). Availability of production model a week from official announcement / press release.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: bcooter on August 31, 2013, 09:21:22 am
A Mark II ZD could be the affordable entry level Phase/Leaf/Mamiya vehicle.  Maybe the guts and screen of a P+ back or a Leaf Aptus II/Mamiya DM series.  Take a bite out of the 645D, at least in Japan.


When I held a ZD in Japan when it first came out, I came close to buying it.  It reminded me so much of the Pentax 6x7.  Then I started reading the reviews, the issues, etc. and was glad I didn't.

There are so many past cameras that have littered the landscape, without ever being finished.  The ZD, the original Kodak backs that had a good lcd, shot to cards, had a decent software suite.  Same with the Leica module for the R9.  If it was full frame, or the Contax 35mm digital that died before they even sold it. 

I don't get spending all that time and resource into a camera and then not addressing the basic flaws.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: pedro39photo on September 02, 2013, 11:06:48 am
A ZD mk II its a great idea !!!

my list:

- Good 400-800 iso files
- Rolleiflex Twin-Lens monochrome with 36x36mm sensor to be affordable price 5000$
- Mamiya 6 or 7 Digital
- Please ! Please ! Please a 5000-7000$ DMF entry level model to bring new users to the MF
- Big viewfinders ( this its the biggest advantage of the MF for me) 
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: sbernthal on September 02, 2013, 12:43:49 pm
I think this is part of the deal between Mamiya and Phase, that Mamiya provides the bodies and some of the lenses, and does not compete in the sensors arena.
So no ZD II will not be available ever, I'm pretty sure.
Phase basically controls Mamiya at this point, and it is not in their interest at all to have a low cost high quality camera available.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: TMARK on September 02, 2013, 03:28:40 pm
I believe, and I may be wrong, that Phase does more than control Mamiya.  I believe that they own Mamiya, as they own Leaf.  A ZDII with the guts of an Aptus II-7 would be incredible.  But no one really understands what is going on behind the curtain.

I think this is part of the deal between Mamiya and Phase, that Mamiya provides the bodies and some of the lenses, and does not compete in the sensors arena.
So no ZD II will not be available ever, I'm pretty sure.
Phase basically controls Mamiya at this point, and it is not in their interest at all to have a low cost high quality camera available.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: sbernthal on September 02, 2013, 03:34:47 pm
Phase outright owns Leaf.
However, I believe it only owns a controlling share in Mamiya, and that Mamiya is not a wholly owned subsidiary of Phase, but there is another share owner as well.

A ZD-Leaf combo would be great for Leaf and Mamiya, but would take too much attention off Phase.
I think Phase keeps Leaf on a short leash, and allows them to make only so much splash.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: bcooter on September 02, 2013, 03:42:39 pm
I don't know who owns who and have no inside info, but I always assumed Leaf had a big part to play with Mamiya and always was associated closely with them.

I think when Phase bought into Mamiya they kind of found that out and had to buy into Leaf ,  but hey that's just a guess.

The thing is I don't think Phase sees much point in offering a bargain brand digital camera.  They've situated themselves in the rarified air part of the imaging world and from the rumors I've heard, they probably make more money off of government contracts than consumers.

But if they did make a 7 grand 645 camera like the ZD what would that get them and their dealers?   There is obviously little margin in 7 grand vs. 20 or 30, or 40 and the trade in on a all in one camera is probably low.  Also at that point your kind of competing with Nikon and I don't think Phase can get to Nikon prices and make money.

To me if they are going to hang in the stratsophere that's fine, but their next camera and lens sets should look the part.  Look at a cooke Panchro lens and look at a Phase One lens.  They cooke may be overpriced at 8 grand, but at least it looks special where most medium format lenses, at least the modern ones look just like any other still lens.

Same with the DF+.  It's not a bad camera, but for the money I'd be spending I want it to look different and purposeful, not like a stretched out Canon.

Though all of that being said, I know from use that Phase backs are damn good.  Mine have lasted forever and it's actually their fault (Phase) that I haven't bought another one, because mine keep working so well.

But if anyone wants an entry level larger than 35mm digital camera for 7k, the Pentax is on the shelf ready to go.

In regards to Phase owning Leaf, I'm sure they position them just slightly below the phase line up but high enough to not bite into their business.

I personally liked the new Leaf interface better than the Phase, except the Leaf didn't have that sensor plus thing and Phase did, so  . . .

Honestly though, people keep saying it's not how a camera looks it's how it works and I agree, except when your dropping large coin on a piece of equipment, actually spending E class money it should look like E class quality and be apparent to everyone.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: tho_mas on September 03, 2013, 03:57:59 pm
I would like to see a DB (modular, of course) with sensor micro adjustment ... adjustable by the user.
This way we could fine adjust the sensor registration. The mechanism should also provide headroom so that we can set sensor tilt/swing (say 2 degrees 4 way while still maintaing registration). Make the adjustments storable and provide enough custom presets (at least 8 ).

The sensor should also provide LiveView, of course. I do own the GH2 and GH3 and have also seen the EVF of the Sony A99. However... personally, I still prefer an OVF (or a groundglas). The technical benefits of an EVF are very clear... however, even when looking through the finder of the GH3 "the world" looks so ugly that I have a hard time to consider anything worth capturing. It looks sooo digital...

 
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: sonarthug on September 04, 2013, 12:10:47 pm
I am using Sinar CaptureFlow Studio 1.2.1 with a new Sinar eXact back. I have been using Sinar for about six years full time. Sinar CaptureFlow Studio was to have been re-done by Basiccolor. What they did was rehash the forgettable Sinar Exposure. But what bugs the hell out of me the most is the lack of documentation on CaptureFlow Studio. No help menu. None. No paperwork. No hard copy of the manual on the disk. After searching hard behind the scenes I found an html folder buried but hidden. Guess what? It was for Sinar Exposure 7.0 that has been discontinued three plus years ago. Sinar CaptureFlow Studio 1.2.1 is quite different that Sinar CaptureShop. Saving settings is completely different. Its a different beast that doesn't seem to keep settings from one day to the next.
So what I want is a manual even if its online. I prefer some tutorials too! Give me some youtube videos. Something that can help with a new back and software that cost over $30000! Can that be too much to ask?

Thanks,
Joe
Sinar CaptureFlow Studio 1.2.1
Sinar eXact
Mac Pro 2x3.06 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
96 GB 1333 MHz DDR3

Mac OS X 10.8.4

Sinar P3
CMV Shutter
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: sbernthal on September 04, 2013, 12:16:55 pm
I think when Phase bought into Mamiya they kind of found that out and had to buy into Leaf ,  but hey that's just a guess.

Phase bought Leaf first, to eliminate competition and enhance segment coverage.
Then they bought a controlling share of Mamiya, also to eliminate competition (ZD) and to make sure Mamiya popular 645 system continued to be best suited for Phase/Leaf backs.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: shadowblade on September 04, 2013, 09:39:45 pm
- A CMOS-based medium format back. Think D800 sensor, blown up to MF size (a full 56x42mm size, not the 54x41mm nearly-645 format currently used). This would give you much better live view, high-ISO and long exposure capabilities.

- An inbuilt electronic level. Spirit levels just don't cut it - they always seem to be off by a bit!

- A panoramic MF back - maybe 24x72mm, or essentially two full-frame sensors side-by-side. Stitching a panorama isn't always an option.

- Some wider lenses. If Canon can make a TS-E 17L that can cover a full-frame sensor and still have room for shift (e.g. using the Hartblei H-cam), there's no reason Rodenstock or someone else couldn't make a 16mm or 17mm lens for ultra-ultra wide work, instead of being limited to 23mm as we are at the moment (unless using the H-cam and TS-E 17).
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: bcooter on September 04, 2013, 10:20:37 pm
I do own the GH2 and GH3 and have also seen the EVF of the Sony A99. However... personally, I still prefer an OVF (or a groundglas). The technical benefits of an EVF are very clear... however, even when looking through the finder of the GH3 "the world" looks so ugly that I have a hard time to consider anything worth capturing. It looks sooo digital...

 

Well,  I like an ovf also, but love the gh3 evf.  It's like having a polaroid in your eye.  I can fire a frame hold the camera and what is in the viewfinder matches what is captured by 95%.

The only time it looks like video to me is if there is a pattern on a screen or a garment and sometimes the viewfinder (not the file) will moire.  The GH3 is a very capable camera and easy to work.

My OMD I love the little thing, but it's damn difficult to work, The GH3's completely intuitive.

These images I shot goofing around.  The first is from our London space from the patio with a gh3 set on a toy camera setting that looked 90% in the viewfinder like the image.

Given that the camera was set on the miniature look, it's pretty cool that wysiwyg.

The second is from the omd that also looked the same in the viewfinder, other than the OMD viewfinder shows more brightness than the file.

(http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/london_views.jpg)

Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2013, 12:57:33 am
Hi,

The reason they bought into Mamiya was to have a body to put their backs on after being excluded by Hasselblad H.


I would agree on the CMOS think.

Best regards
Erik


- A CMOS-based medium format back. Think D800 sensor, blown up to MF size (a full 56x42mm size, not the 54x41mm nearly-645 format currently used). This would give you much better live view, high-ISO and long exposure capabilities.

- An inbuilt electronic level. Spirit levels just don't cut it - they always seem to be off by a bit!

- A panoramic MF back - maybe 24x72mm, or essentially two full-frame sensors side-by-side. Stitching a panorama isn't always an option.

- Some wider lenses. If Canon can make a TS-E 17L that can cover a full-frame sensor and still have room for shift (e.g. using the Hartblei H-cam), there's no reason Rodenstock or someone else couldn't make a 16mm or 17mm lens for ultra-ultra wide work, instead of being limited to 23mm as we are at the moment (unless using the H-cam and TS-E 17).
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2013, 01:03:41 am
Hi,

I agree with tho_mas, but I would suggest EVF-s will develop.

Best regards
Erik

I would like to see a DB (modular, of course) with sensor micro adjustment ... adjustable by the user.
This way we could fine adjust the sensor registration. The mechanism should also provide headroom so that we can set sensor tilt/swing (say 2 degrees 4 way while still maintaing registration). Make the adjustments storable and provide enough custom presets (at least 8 ).

The sensor should also provide LiveView, of course. I do own the GH2 and GH3 and have also seen the EVF of the Sony A99. However... personally, I still prefer an OVF (or a groundglas). The technical benefits of an EVF are very clear... however, even when looking through the finder of the GH3 "the world" looks so ugly that I have a hard time to consider anything worth capturing. It looks sooo digital...

 
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: shadowblade on September 05, 2013, 01:14:57 am
Hi,

The reason they bought into Mamiya was to have a body to put their backs on after being excluded by Hasselblad H.


I would agree on the CMOS think.

Best regards
Erik



Not that lacking a body is a huge problem for a MF back.

One of the big attractions of MF backs is that you can pair almost any lens with any back/sensor. Tying yourself into a certain body drastically limits these choices. For instance, no-one has a true UWA wider than 28mm able to be used on a Mamiya, Hasselblad or Leica MF body. Tilt-shift options are also in short supply, particularly at the wider end. Use an Alpa or H-Cam, though, and your options are almost unlimited.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2013, 02:26:51 am
Hi,

I am pretty sure most backs are used on SLR bodies. So, you cannot put P1 backs on Hasselblad H, Contax is out, you don't want to join Hy6 (why?). That really makes Mamiya the only option, you want it to survive. You can definitively not put an MFDB on a Leica body.

I agree that the option to use a MFDB with a technical camera is very attractive, and I got the impression that it is a 15% segment of the market and groving.

Best regards
Erik


Not that lacking a body is a huge problem for a MF back.

One of the big attractions of MF backs is that you can pair almost any lens with any back/sensor. Tying yourself into a certain body drastically limits these choices. For instance, no-one has a true UWA wider than 28mm able to be used on a Mamiya, Hasselblad or Leica MF body. Tilt-shift options are also in short supply, particularly at the wider end. Use an Alpa or H-Cam, though, and your options are almost unlimited.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: sbernthal on September 05, 2013, 02:34:27 am
Not that lacking a body is a huge problem for a MF back.

One of the big attractions of MF backs is that you can pair almost any lens with any back/sensor. Tying yourself into a certain body drastically limits these choices. For instance, no-one has a true UWA wider than 28mm able to be used on a Mamiya, Hasselblad or Leica MF body. Tilt-shift options are also in short supply, particularly at the wider end. Use an Alpa or H-Cam, though, and your options are almost unlimited.

They wanted to secure a body that will continue to work with their backs forever and not be dependent on external decision making.
They didn't tie themselves to a specific body like Hasselblad did - you are still free to mount Phase/Leaf backs to many bodies.
Lacking a body would be a huge problem - for instance if someone else was to buy Mamiya, they would have to make the HY6 totally viable for ALL professional applications, or develop/buy a new one.
Being able to provide solution of a general purpose body is essential for a DB company.
Such a solution must provide:
- Auto focus
- 1:1 macro lens
- wide angles
- Low aperture portrait lens
- zoom lens
Not all MF bodies have all that.

Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: baudolino on September 05, 2013, 06:24:59 am
I want a Mamiya 6 digital. Full frame 56x56 mm chip, with large photo sites, resolution does not need to exceed 40mp, perhaps Foveon chip or Fuji Xtrans to prevent moire. EVF plus ability to switch off rear display  easily, for the sake of battery longevity. Fast and accurate AF system with contrast detection off the chip, like Olympus OM-D, incl. face detection and focus on the nearest eye. Compact and lightweight body, with 3 interchangeable prime lenses. Battery good for 1000-2000 shots, like on a Leica S2. Lenses with aperture ring and real manual focus, not focus by wire. MF mode with assignable AF assist button and small central spot AF site, like Leica S2. Shutter speeds, ISO and exposure compensation selectable via dedicated manual dials. Price up to EUR10k for the body, lenses up to EUR3000 each. OK, I know it's not going to happen and understand the reasons why, so I'll happily continue using the S2 for digital and the Mamiya 6 for analog.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Hulyss on September 05, 2013, 08:54:12 am
Ergonomic weather sealed body with 56x56mm 25 (x3) mp Foveon chip, perfectly fixed 16 bit output, no curtain, no mirror, electronic shutter on chip + superb lens and adapters. Body cost around 14k and each lenses around 2,5/3k.

 8)

I think that company should work on new AF modules as well, because we start to see a gap between sensors tech and AF tech IMHO.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Bernd B. on September 05, 2013, 01:24:32 pm
1.) I want a foveon style non bayer moiré free digital back.

2.) I liked the option of the Hasselblad CF backs to swap camera mount. I´d like to use my old Blad instead of the H from time to time.

Bernd
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2013, 02:42:14 pm
Hi,

In my view, the best way to reduce moiré is smaller pixels. Foevon does not reduce moiré, it just doesn't produce color moiré.

Best regards
Erik

1.) I want a foveon style non bayer moiré free digital back.

2.) I liked the option of the Hasselblad CF backs to swap camera mount. I´d like to use my old Blad instead of the H from time to time.

Bernd
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2013, 02:48:21 pm
Hi,

I sort of think that live view at actual pixels is best for accurate focus. Contrast sensing AF is pretty accurate. Afer that we need to look into focus shift. Present back makers are more into electronics than fine mechanics, I would be concerned about back makers adding micro mechanics.

Best regards
Erik


Ergonomic weather sealed body with 56x56mm 25 (x3) mp Foveon chip, perfectly fixed 16 bit output, no curtain, no mirror, electronic shutter on chip + superb lens and adapters. Body cost around 14k and each lenses around 2,5/3k.

 8)

I think that company should work on new AF modules as well, because we start to see a gap between sensors tech and AF tech IMHO.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: TMARK on September 05, 2013, 03:17:06 pm
Erik,

Sinar and Blad did well with their multi-shot backs and their step motors.

T

Hi,

I sort of think that live view at actual pixels is best for accurate focus. Contrast sensing AF is pretty accurate. Afer that we need to look into focus shift. Present back makers are more into electronics than fine mechanics, I would be concerned about back makers adding micro mechanics.

Best regards
Erik


Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 05, 2013, 04:00:12 pm
Hi,

The sensor would be shifted between two fixed positions in two directions in two dimensions, much simpler than building a back with microfocus adjustment.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

Sinar and Blad did well with their multi-shot backs and their step motors.

T

Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: TMARK on September 05, 2013, 04:04:02 pm
They could sub it out to Japan. 

Hi,

The sensor would be shifted between two fixed positions in two directions in two dimensions, much simpler than building a back with microfocus adjustment.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 05, 2013, 05:44:17 pm
1.) I want a foveon style non bayer moiré free digital back.

2.) I liked the option of the Hasselblad CF backs to swap camera mount. I´d like to use my old Blad instead of the H from time to time.

I want a Mamiya 6 digital. Full frame 56x56 mm chip, with large photo sites, resolution does not need to exceed 40mp, perhaps Foveon chip or Fuji Xtrans to prevent moire. EVF plus ability to switch off rear display  easily, for the sake of battery longevity.

As Erik points out Fovean nor X-Trans eliminates moire.

Smaller pixel pitch has made moire a very rare phenomenon. It's not impossible to get moire an IQ180 (it's not impossible to get it on ANY digital system, even micro-stepper backs) but it's very uncommon.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: bcooter on September 06, 2013, 10:24:21 pm
As Erik points out Fovean nor X-Trans eliminates moire.

Smaller pixel pitch has made moire a very rare phenomenon. It's not impossible to get moire an IQ180 (it's not impossible to get it on ANY digital system, even micro-stepper backs) but it's very uncommon.

Doug,

Get phase to think about video.  If not in hardware, software.  They seem to have it down on difficult cameras, like nikon color, the x-trans etc., but so many people shoot combination projects, I can't explain how great it would be if we could ingest the video and still images together, batch out color and tone to match and process.

The software should also convert (transcode) in the process.  It's crazy we have to take an h264 file, convert it to pro rezz, them go to a grading suite, then process it out in prorezz, then downsample it for web view for client approval.

Have phase allow you to imbed a visible time code for dailies and do the processing so you can put out two different codecs per file, one for web, one ready for editorial.

Once again, I know your margins are in equipment, but nothing gets a person closer to a company than learning their software.

Ask RED how well cinex is received.

Oh and also find a way to use a dedicated video card to assist.

Thanks

BC
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: EricWHiss on September 09, 2013, 01:23:58 am
Reiterating, I'd love to see a big square sensor 56x56, but now that I think about it more, I'd also like to see it be multishot capable and really resistant to color casts so that it could support being mounted on a tech camera and shifted.  Video or live view would be icing on the cake.

I'd also like to see a much bigger sensor - 4x5 would be awesome!
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: Chairman Bill on September 09, 2013, 04:26:46 am
I'd like a cheap-as-chips Bronica-compatible digital back (of the quality of my D700 - I'm not greedy), and a heads-up before release, so I can buy up loads of Bronica hardware before the prices rise ridiculously.

I'd also like a 16mb digital back to be retro-fitted to my old Nikon FM
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: torger on September 09, 2013, 07:13:41 am
I don't think the established players will make larger sensors, too few sales and not compatible with their own camera systems.

However, making a tethered-only back should not be that hard, so possibly a new small (ie microscopic) player could make a digital back with a 56x56mm sensor or even larger. If Mitchell Feinberg could have two 8x10" digital backs custom-made, a small company should be able to make a 56x56 or even 4x5" back with available standard technology. Just don't expect live view or stand-alone operation or some break-through new sensor tech.

Perhaps DHW could make an own back for their Hy6, that would be awesome. Maybe do like Sinar, have Jenoptik make the back for them.

A 4x5" digital back maybe could be a project for Sinar, or Sinar, Arca-Swiss and Linhof in a joint venture.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 09, 2013, 09:12:29 am
A scanning back?

Best regards
Erik


I don't think the established players will make larger sensors, too few sales and not compatible with their own camera systems.

However, making a tethered-only back should not be that hard, so possibly a new small (ie microscopic) player could make a digital back with a 56x56mm sensor or even larger. If Mitchell Feinberg could have two 8x10" digital backs custom-made, a small company should be able to make a 56x56 or even 4x5" back with available standard technology. Just don't expect live view or stand-alone operation or some break-through new sensor tech.

Perhaps DHW could make an own back for their Hy6, that would be awesome. Maybe do like Sinar, have Jenoptik make the back for them.

A 4x5" digital back maybe could be a project for Sinar, or Sinar, Arca-Swiss and Linhof in a joint venture.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: torger on September 09, 2013, 11:00:23 am
A scanning back?

There are already scanning backs on the market. Not sure about the status of them though, I think some have issues due to that the CCD sensors used have gone out of production. There's Better light, Anagramm and one more recent which I forgot the name for. Anagramm's top end is David2 with 72x118mm scan area, 374 megapixels (RGB in each pixel). Scanning backs have their place in repro photography but have been losing ground because the medium format backs provide quicker workflow and good enough quality for most applications.

4x5" "full frame" is about 100x125mm, so the scanning backs provide a crop of that based on standard CCD sensor width (those 72mm).

Since much landscape photography in the field is in practice still life a scanning back could work, but scanning times becomes extremely slow (and not possible to set?) unless there's really good light.

A 4x5" sensor one-shot digital back (probably with multi-shot function) would probably mainly be targeted at the repro market, to take back some ground lost to the smaller medium format. It would need to have really high resolution to compete well in that market. For a 56x56mm back which would be used for portrait photography mostly I guess, super-high resolution would be less important.

In the field I don't think a 4x5" sensor would be used for general landscape photography (too much bulk and too little gain), but for special extreme high resolution image making where 8x10 and 20x24 is used now, Castor scan have a few clients that give example of such work such as Vincenzo Castella and Massimo Vitali.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: BJL on September 09, 2013, 07:33:15 pm
If Mitchell Feinberg could have two 8x10" digital backs custom-made ...
The 10MP sensors in those backs, good only for low resolution proofs, are so different from anything of interest for making high quality photographs that they say nothing about the feasibility of 56x56mm or 5” x 4” sensors. They are of very low resolution by 10x8 standards [10MP] with huge [~70 micron] photosites, allowing them to made with the very large format equipment used to make LCD panels. That approach does not scale down to photographically relevant pixel sizes. Unless you make the sensors a few meters wide and high. Or you want a 2.5MP 5x4 back for about $100,000.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: DanielStone on September 10, 2013, 01:34:43 am
<snip>
 If Mitchell Feinberg could have two 8x10" digital backs custom-made, a small company should be able to make a 56x56 or even 4x5" back with available standard technology.
<snip>

He uses the backs ONLY for proofing, since he can't get 8x10 Polaroid film anymore. And no, the Impossible Project stuff won't work, especially @ $20/sheet, vs ~$7-8/sheet when Polaroid was making it. He still commits final shots to reversal(slide) film.

Not to mention, those pixels are HUGE. The "sensor" is only like 10mp or so, not much. But enough to assess detail and if things are sharp and highlights are of proper density.
Title: Re: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?
Post by: jerome_m on September 10, 2013, 12:42:19 pm
I read the whole thread. I find it surprising that everybody wants cameras. I want lenses.

For example, if a MF had the equivalent of the Minolta STF, that would be very, very nice.