Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Ellis Vener on August 23, 2013, 11:21:38 am

Title: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Ellis Vener on August 23, 2013, 11:21:38 am
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

...So if you feel overwhelmed by questions about what to buy or what process or material to explore because you are being seduced by the siren of technology , or start rolling your eyes while reading  mind numbingly arcane and jargon laden discussions about tiny bits of technical minutia, just know that you aren't alone and are far from the first person to feel that way.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: RobSaecker on August 23, 2013, 02:37:10 pm
+++

:)

Can't pretend I'm not guilty, though.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: NancyP on August 23, 2013, 02:52:20 pm
I resemble that comment  ;)   
I need to study each software action more carefully (no presets for me until I eat study that okra action).
Ditto for focal lengths/perspectives and other hardware variables.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Isaac on August 23, 2013, 04:00:57 pm
So that's been happening from at least 1929.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Peter Stacey on August 23, 2013, 08:15:26 pm
He would never have made it in marketing. Lucky for us.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Isaac on August 23, 2013, 08:31:37 pm
Apparently that was something which gave Ansel Adams' concern about Edward Weston.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: BJL on August 23, 2013, 09:34:23 pm
Apparently that was something which gave Ansel Adams' concern about Edward Weston.
Yes, Adams and Weston were almost at opposite extremes in their attitudes to gear and technology, and I almost detect a dig at Adams in that quote from Weston.

It would be fun to have a record of them debating the issue.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on August 23, 2013, 11:21:26 pm
Yes, Adams and Weston were almost at opposite extremes in their attitudes to gear and technology, and I almost detect a dig at Adams in that quote from Weston.

It would be fun to have a record of them debating the issue.
I'll have to retell one of my favorite anecdotes, told me by Minor White who once was out photographing with both Ansel and Edward.

At Ansel's insistence, Edward was carrying a Weston (no relation) Master exposure meter.

How did Edward use the meter?

According to Minor, Edward waved it around the scene and then looked at the suggested reading, and then muttered "It's wrong!" and proceeded to set the exposure his own eyes and experience told him to use.

 ;D
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Iluvmycam on August 23, 2013, 11:23:27 pm
Thanks Ellis!!  Timely reminder.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Rob C on August 24, 2013, 10:29:12 am
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

...So if you feel overwhelmed by questions about what to buy or what process or material to explore because you are being seduced by the siren of technology , or start rolling your eyes while reading  mind numbingly arcane and jargon laden discussions about tiny bits of technical minutia, just know that you aren't alone and are far from the first person to feel that way.


Spoilsport!

Have you no heart; have you no soul?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 24, 2013, 10:38:25 am
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

...So if you feel overwhelmed by questions about what to buy or what process or material to explore because you are being seduced by the siren of technology , or start rolling your eyes while reading  mind numbingly arcane and jargon laden discussions about tiny bits of technical minutia, just know that you aren't alone and are far from the first person to feel that way.

I'll be back momentarily to carefully read this thread....right after I click the B&H banner to see what's new and read some gear reviews. ;)
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 24, 2013, 11:26:31 am
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

You don’t want to have to think about the mechanics of operating the camera; you want to think about the photograph you're making. A sufficient condition for achieving that level of unconscious, effortless, competence would be owning only one camera for your whole photographic lifetime and using it every day. But it’s not necessary, at least if you make photographs the way most artists do.

If you’re a mere mortal, you don’t get up every morning with a completely new idea for a photograph, and spend the day making that image. You evolve ideas for photographs over months or years, each image building on the many mistakes and few successes of the previous ones. You work in series of pictures, each one quite similar to the others. If you’re muse takes you to the studio, you may spend years making images with one camera and lens at nearly the same aperture, shutter speed, and subject distance. That’s an extreme case, but even situations that are considered unpredictable, such as street photography, fall into a routine with little variation as a photographer assiduously pursues a creative thread. You pick a favorite body and one or two lenses that seem to suit the project. You get to know what you’re going to see through the finder before you raise the camera to your eye. You know what the light will do to the image without metering. Your movements become fluid through practice. This learning happens quickly, because the boundaries of the project create boundaries in the way you use the camera. You use a subset of the capabilities of the camera. The smaller the subset, the quicker you learn what you need to know to make the images you want.

There’s a useful analogy between a camera and a powerful computer program. Microsoft Word is a monster of an application, capable of doing a variety of things. Most people only use the subset of Word’s features that they need to get their work done. If you’re writing a thesis or a paper for a scientific journal, you need to know how to create and manage footnotes and endnotes, so you learn the necessary arcane incantations. If you’re writing poetry, you probably have no idea how to produce a footnote, and you are not disadvantaged in the slightest for your ignorance.

There's more on this subject here (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=35).

Jim
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: MarkL on August 24, 2013, 06:38:18 pm
Every camera has shutter speed, aperture and iso. I've never had any problem going from Nikon FM to 4x5 to D800.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: RFPhotography on August 24, 2013, 06:44:33 pm
Every camera has shutter speed, aperture and iso. I've never had any problem going from Nikon FM to 4x5 to D800.

Actually, with the FM and 4x5 it's the film that has the ISO.  ;)

I agree with what you're saying, though.  I've got a Texas Leica and a Fuji X100s.  As different as they are, both serve the same purpose.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: MarkL on August 24, 2013, 07:45:02 pm
Actually, with the FM and 4x5 it's the film that has the ISO.  ;)

I agree with what you're saying, though.  I've got a Texas Leica and a Fuji X100s.  As different as they are, both serve the same purpose.

Reminds me of the guy that emailed me after buying my RB67 asking where the iso setting was...

I probably spend 90% of the time worrying about model, hair, makeup, wardrobe, location and the rest technical photography stuff.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: BJL on August 24, 2013, 09:09:24 pm
Eric, that sounded familiar ... and so I dug up this corroboration:
"I can recall seeing Edward Weston, who was not particularly of scientific persuasion, using his meter in rather unorthodox ways. He would point it in several directions, take a reading from each, and fiddle with the dial with a thoughtful expression. 'It says one quarter second at f/32, I'll give it one second'." --- Ansel Adams, "The Negative", p. 30.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: K.C. on August 24, 2013, 10:33:37 pm
I probably spend 90% of the time worrying about model, hair, makeup, wardrobe, location and the rest technical photography stuff.

That sounds right to me. Photography is easy. Producing a shoot is the real work.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: NancyP on August 26, 2013, 12:30:09 pm
I have problems all the time going from Canon 60D to 6D when shooting in the dark (astro). The cameras feel almost identical, but the few button placement changes get me confused when I am fiddling in the dark with the camera on the tripod, aimed at zenith. When I am actually holding the cameras, no problem. Upside down, in the dark, problem.  ;D
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: stevebri on August 26, 2013, 03:02:26 pm
An interesting and aptly timed thread Ellis, thanks.

I recently changed system after many yrs with a P25 and afdIII and DF.

LIke many I bought into the D800E, as a long term Nikon user from way back, even if it was for less than 15% of my work, it wasn't a huge hill to climb.

It took time to come up to speed with it and it still isn't totally natural yet, both in shooting and in post, and it isn't a MFDB file.

But what it is is a camera that is easier to use and by being that it is less of a barrier between what I see and feel and what I create, end result....? I'm shooting more and more and now I'm (almost) up to speed I'm shooting better work.

I have 5 lenses, I'm not on eBay for photo stuff at all now, I'm not at dealers or even on the forums.... I'm out shooting, or planning the bigger productions...

As Stan Rox said recently when he did a similar thing.... 'sometimes it's good to reboot...'.

It's taken this change to make me aware of, as you say, this gear obsessed caminho we get sucked into following...

He are a few quotes (from kit sellers and forum trolls)you might find funny....

'D800E.....??? You'll get loads of moire mate '. Nope, had none at all yet even with patterned fabric.
'D800E....???? You'll need loads more memory cards, and much bigger ones...!' Nope, what I had before was fine, and will be fine here.
D800E.... you'll need the very best, most expensive glass money can buy...' Nope, a few Nikon primes at f1.8 are stunning.

Since making the switch I have found a less obtrusive box that exposes light and in turn re ignited my love for photography..... Not gear...

Time to look at some Weston and Adams work for inspiration...


S

Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Rob C on August 26, 2013, 05:55:19 pm
There's another factor too, Steve: the camera you use alters the way you shoot.

I used to use Nikon F and F2s and Hasselblad 500 series cameras, and they turned me into different photographers in the same day. I'd offer that they were almost as a big a swap in midset as colour or back/white.

Regarding lenses: I have no quibble with my older-style Nikkors. They are all manual AIS primes bar the newer 2.8/180 which is AF, and more the pity for that: it just feels 'wrong', somehow, even though it isn't a bad performer...

Feel is so important.

I never owned any Leica, but from brief use in my last employment in '65, the M3 also had a magical quality called 'feel', and the 21mm was something else.

Rob C
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: fike on August 26, 2013, 06:44:56 pm
that is a lovely quote and just goes to remind us that there is nothing new under the sun. 

...all things in moderation...that includes new equipment.

I tell people that new gear is fine, as long as it is not a proxy for practice and study and dedication to your craft...and as long as it adds something new to your capabilities.

You can't play golf without golf clubs. 

There are some things that cannot be photographed without certain equipment--wildlife photography is perhaps the most equipment intensive branch of the photography family tree.  Getting good is very hard without at least a reasonably competent telephoto lens.  Otherwise you are permanently handicapped.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, amazing street photography and portraiture can be done with very modest photographic equipment. 
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: AlfSollund on August 28, 2013, 04:53:33 am
Thanks for sharing!

I'm a hopeless amateursih hobbyist, meaning I'm only in it for the fun. Part of the fun is to master the medium. But I also claim the right to enjoy all aspects of the process, such as mastering and discussing the gear. But Weston was of course correct when it comes to the end result, the photo. And I would add that the real challenge is to have some story to tell.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: joneil on August 28, 2013, 10:24:48 am
  As others have said, I too have resembled that comment.  :)

  I think the point that a person "grows up" and becomes a true photographer, pro or amateur, is that time when you buy a camera and/or a lens, and you simply don't give a flying hoot what other people think or say about your gear, or if it makes a top ten list of sharpest lens, etc.   You don't care what the web site or magazine reviews say or what popular opinion seems to be on the message boards, you get to a point where you are comfortable, and capturing/creating your image is top priority. 
 
   I was just taking to a professional photographer the other day.   He pointed out a "new" lens he had bought a year ago, certainly not a top of the line lens by any standard, but not bad either.   He says to me;  " You know, people make fun of me or do a double take when they see the lens I use, but you know what, I pay the rent and buy groceries with photographs I take using this lens.  Further more if I drop or break it, I  toss it right away, but a new the same day and never loose any real downtime."

   Another pro I know uses either Nikon or Canon, they flip back and forth all the time, simply depending on his need at the time.   He doesn't care what brand they use as long as the camera has the features he needs. 

    There is one bit of "gear" advice I was given 30 years ago, that despite all the technological advances I still agree with.   I was taught that 90% of the world's photographs could be improved by using a tripod.  Two reasons.  One, it steadies the camera and makes any lens you use sharper that a jiggy hand held shot.  Even today with IS or VR, i still see "shaky shots" that people take even with the IS or VR turned on,  so I think  that still hold true.  Secondly, using a tripod mounted camera forces you to slow down and think about what you are shooting.

  So the real lesson is, not to always use a tripod, but to hold your camera steady and think about your shots.  In other words, technique over gear wins out almost every time.
:)

Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: 250swb on August 31, 2013, 04:28:49 am
It is an excellent quote, thank you for sharing. But I can't help but think if you dropped it into many 'gear threads' across a wide range of forums (not this one obviously) the reply would be one of two, a) 'who is Edward Weston?', or b) 'His photo's would have looked better in HDR color'. Essentially many people have never known anything other than gear discussions, they have never gone outside the envelope of 'the next lens will make me better'.

  ;D

Steve
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: tino tedaldi on September 06, 2013, 02:37:21 pm
...I'm not sure, but I have been told: Terry O'neill only owns a Tripod

TT
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: tino tedaldi on September 06, 2013, 02:42:52 pm
..sorry to quote correctly...only turns up on set with a trusty old gitzo....comfortable!
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Ray on September 09, 2013, 10:09:03 am
Sorry! I can't identify much with this quote from Edward Weston. Whenever I buy new gear, it's always because I've experienced some degree of disatisfaction with my current gear, and discover that the new gear is not only  claimed to address such problem, but actually does address such problems, according to sites such as DXOMark.

For example, my first digital camera, the 6mp Canon D60, had rather poor high-ISO performance. I could see the noise clearly on my computer monitor, even at ISO 400. At ISO 800 it was unbearable. ISO 1,000 was the highest ISO setting. The only reason I ever used ISO 1,000 was to reconfirm that noise was unacceptable, in all circumstances.

When Canon released the 20D some years later, the improvement in high-ISO noise was so significant that upgrading the D60 to a 20D was a no-brainer.

Likewise, when Canon produced an affordable full-frame DSLR, the 12mp  5D, around the same time it offered a good quality 24-105/F4 zoom, the decision was easy to buy both the camera and the lens. The improved results were a joy to behold.

However, nothing's perfect. Despite my general satisfaction with th Canon 5D, there were times when I was really pissed off with the banding and the noise in the deep shadows. I felt that some of my best shots were ruined because I was unable to retrieve clean detail in the shadows.

When Nikon addressed this problem, to a small degree with the full-frame D3 and D700,  and later to a much more significant degree with the D7000 and the D800, then the decision was clear. I now use Nikon equipment.

I hope the point I'm making is clear. I'm distinguishing between a redressing of dissatisfaction with one's current equipment, and the seduction of advertised new effects which may be perceived as cool.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Peter McLennan on September 09, 2013, 11:04:35 am
Upside down, in the dark, problem.  ;D

Solution:  Fenix E01  : )

Amazon has excellent prices on this invaluable piece of camera gear.  It's an LED flashlight, not much bigger than the single AAA battery that powers it.  I tape a piece of red gel over the business end if I'm star shooting to preserve my night vision.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Deardorff on October 07, 2013, 02:29:50 pm
Getting and reading Edward Weston's Daybooks is a good way to see what he thought about what he was doing. Worth the effort and time as it gives good insight into one of the photo greats.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Isaac on October 10, 2013, 12:49:30 pm
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

"Weston often used longer exposures than Adams did (particularly in his still lifes) and was less likely to use a filter to correct tonality or to eliminate chromatic aberration in his often less-than-perfect lenses. Instead, he usually stopped down his lenses as much as possible, even using black paper with a hole in it in one case to increase the appearance of detail in the finished photograph. ... This limited equipment was occasioned by straitened finances, but Weston made a virtue of necessity by believing that it was best to learn to see in terms of one lens, one film, and one paper, rather than acquiring a smattering of knowledge about a variety of processes. In this manner he felt one could gain an intuitive relationship to the exposure of the photograph."

(My emphasis.)

"Continuity and Revolution: The Work of Ansel Adams and Edward Weston", Diana Emery Hulick, pages 26-27 in Through their own eyes: the personal portfolios of Edward Weston and Ansel Adams (http://books.google.com/books?ei=uhVPUszQE4ipigL0gYGwAg&id=y9VTAAAAMAAJ&dq=Through+their+own+eyes%3A+the+personal+portfolios+of+Edward+Weston+and+Ansel+Adams&q=%22the+obvious+differences+in+their+styles%22).


I really should have wondered more about the background to Edward Weston's words. I do only have a 35mm f1.8 and 85mm f2.8 and one APS-C camera body; and although I am slowly learning what I can do with them, it would be silly to ignore the fact that they were among the cheapest prime lenses for the camera :-)
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: kitalight on December 16, 2013, 10:57:38 pm
The change in technology in bodies every few years tempts people to upgrade technology so often that, as Weston observed, it is often too short a period to fully comprehend its potential and to develop "automaticity"....technique without having to think about mechanics...
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 17, 2013, 02:07:44 am
I'm not sure if many have looked at Brett's work, (Edwards older son)...I find it a real joy. I recommend the bio's of the family as well.

I can relate to the quote, and as mentioned, rather timely :-)


If you are in studio and setting up a shoot, maybe it has little relation. But shooting in the streets anything that is at the glimps of a second, knowing your gear second nature is huge.
I'm happy I can pretty much have this setup from the Canon 10D to 4 models between up to the 5Dm2. I'm sure Nikon users feel the same way.

Perhaps partly the Weston quote is as such, since they used the LFormats like most today's photographers use a SLR.....at least on occasion.
Title: Re: Something to think about from Edward Weston
Post by: luxborealis on January 07, 2014, 11:54:19 am
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston


Thanks for this quote, Ellis. It's a great reminder of what really counts in photography - the photographs, not the gear. No doubt the circumstances of Weston (limited finances) have a bearing on his comment, as Isaac pointed out.

It's also important to remember the time in which it was said - a time when gear was significantly more expensive compared to average incomes of the time and there wasn't the level of now rampant consumerism we have today that companies now rely on for profits. The photography industry would collapse if today we had to pay equivalent prices (compared to average incomes) for gear. We have also gone through a period of incredibly rapid and unprecedented change and improvements to gear with automation and digital capture. These have all combined to keep many of us spending.

But I fear for the future of a photo industry so reliant on consumerism and upgrading; an industry also being scavenged by phone cameras at the low, money-making end. I'm sure Canikon are not relying on pro sales for their bread and butter.

Case in point, similar to Ray, in the last 10 years I have upgraded my main camera four times to take advantage of the improvements. But, like many perhaps, I have now reached an "equipment plateau" with my D800E, primes, a good simple zoom, flash and tripod and an archival printer. This is a good thing - and one clearly pointed out by Weston - as now, given only so many hours in a day, I can devote more to what counts, photography, and not to gear watching-comparing-buying-learning-fine tuning. I've stopped ebaying and can't yet conceive of any significant purchases beyond a TC. Cameras and lenses have become too darn good at reasonable prices. I suppose I could spring for a carbon fibre tripod, but paying $500+ for a savings of 1kg just isn't justifiable. And even those exotic lenses are now within reach as lens rentals are also much easier to do now than in the past.

Perhaps all we can hope for is that there are enough rampant consumers who don't feel the same way and keep buying to keep the companies we depend on afloat. Sounds crazy, but that's the reality as Nikon has made all the money they will from me for a good few years at least. Now, the only companies who will see my photo dollars are Epson for ink, Moab and Canson for paper and my local framer.

What to do?