Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Bob_B on August 22, 2013, 09:36:10 am
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I've been debating about mirror lockup for some time now. I understand its benefits to reduce vibrations, but is it worth the extra trouble?
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no need with a Sony a99.
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no need with a Sony a99.
Do you deactive the Steady Shot function? ;-)
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LiveView on Canon has, by default, the mirror locked up.
Would help if you indicated what camera you were using.
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I'm using a Canon 7D. (OP)
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I'm using a Canon 7D. (OP)
OK....use LiveView
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If the camera is on a tripod? Always, I can't really think of any reason not to
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If the camera is on a tripod? Always, I can't really think of any reason not to
+1.
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+1
But, I also use self timer or cable release.
Best regards
Erik
If the camera is on a tripod? Always, I can't really think of any reason not to
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If I'm shooting locked down on a tripod, I always use mirror lock-up, in conjunction with a cable release (Nikon D800). Why wouldn't one?
Phil
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If the camera is on a tripod? Always, I can't really think of any reason not to
+1.
+1 more
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I guess it depends on what you call "the extra trouble." If the camera is on a tripod, has been carefully focused eg with live view, AND you care about the results, how can it NOT be worth it. I do not know about the Canon system, but in the world of Nikon, it's quite easy, a simple turn of the dial sets it. Attach the cable, push once, mirror up, wait however long you feel is necessary, push it again and the shutter is released, seems pretty simple.
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I always use it for static subjects. Of course MLU tracking wildlife is nuts so the poll options could use adjustment.
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I always use it for static subjects. Of course MLU tracking wildlife is nuts so the poll options could use adjustment.
For me, less about the subject being static and more about the camera being static. Whenever the camera is static, then I use MLU.
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I guess it depends on what you call "the extra trouble." If the camera is on a tripod, has been carefully focused eg with live view, AND you care about the results, how can it NOT be worth it. I do not know about the Canon system, but in the world of Nikon, it's quite easy, a simple turn of the dial sets it. Attach the cable, push once, mirror up, wait however long you feel is necessary, push it again and the shutter is released, seems pretty simple.
Even with a Canon system "the extra trouble" of going back to reshoot the scene because the image was blurry is likely to be greater than "the extra trouble" of using MLU and a cable or self-timer (on a tripod, of course).
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If the camera is on a tripod? Always, I can't really think of any reason not to
Yep, indeed.
It is in fact mandatory. Some cameras would in fact probably end up being less sharp on a tripod without mirror lock up than handheld at reasonably fast shutter speeds.
Cheers,
Bernard
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When on a tripod - use Live view.
And use a remote.
Absolute no-brainer!
Is it worth it? Yes! With bells on.
Nuff said.
Tony Jay
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+1
Cheers!
When on a tripod - use Live view.
And use a remote.
Absolute no-brainer!
Is it worth it? Yes! With bells on.
Nuff said.
Tony Jay
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Canons have two different self-timer settings, a long one and a short one. I use the long when I want to compose a picture and then jump into it myself (mostly travel shots with my wife). I believe that one is about a 10 second delay.
I use the short one, 2 seconds or so I think, for tripod shots in conjunction with mirror lockup. It's really the easiest thing you can do to improve sharpness. No need to carry a cable release either: press the shutter, mirror comes up, shutter opens 2 seconds later. Also works with live view.
The easiest thing to do is set one of the custom shooting modes to activate both mirror lockup and short timer. I'm pretty sure all mid range and high end Canon DSLRs can do that, and probably most others as well. On my camera, I often use C1 for HDR. The key settings are mirror lockup, manual exposure, short timer.
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There seems to be some little bit of confusion about live view (LV) vs mirror lock up (MLU) on Canon SLR's. On many Canon SLR's is accessed via the menu system. Once it is engaged, the view finder is blocked by the mirror in the up position. With LV, the mirror is up but the image can be viewed on screen. Moreover, one can inspect the RGB histogram in real-time as you vary the composition or, for example, zoom your lens. Most importantly for landscape work on a tripod or other rigid support, you can examine the image at 5x or 10x zoom, with 10x corresponding to the pixel level. This feature makes focusing fool proof. If it looks like it is in focus on the screen at 10x, it is. You are not looking through the optical view finder and hoping that the camera focus system and focus on the sensor coincide. There are also options that further reduce vibration, but I forget what they are called. Maybe someone will comment.
All in all LV is a very important feature for landscape photographers. Oh! Did I mention that you invoke it by pushing a button on the back of the camera. The esteemed Michael R used to beg for an MLU button; this is much better.
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Absolutely no confusion from my side.
The OP's camera will allow Live view or MLU in isolation.
Live view is the way to go - you have highlighted a couple of additional compelling reasons to use it.
I now refer back to my first post.
Tony Jay
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All in all LV is a very important feature for landscape photographers. Oh! Did I mention that you invoke it by pushing a button on the back of the camera. The esteemed Michael R used to beg for an MLU button; this is much better.
Not completely, at least not for me. LV is great for all the things you mention. But, it burns battery power, and leaving it on for extended periods will heat up the sensor, adding shadow noise. And unless you use a remote shutter release or trigger the shutter via the timer, pushing the shutter button will cause some small amount of camera shake, regardless of where the mirror might be. Perhaps you don't often shoot in the desert, or do long sequences of exposures. I've learned the hard way to be judicious about LV in those circumstances.
So, I still need MLU quite a lot, and it's annoying not to have a dedicated control. My first Canon film camera, which I bought in 1981, had a nice mechanical MLU switch. You kind of get used to a thing like that over a couple of decades. Not having one on a DSLR, where the simplest of buttons could trigger the function, is pretty exasperating.
There was an article in Photo Techniques in the late '90s where someone tested several different kinds of cameras at a whole range of shutter speeds. It turned out that MLU made a big difference up to surprisingly fast shutter openings for some camera/lens combos. It wasn't even very predictable; some inexpensive cameras had mirrors that induced a small amount of vibration, while a few expensive pro models were terrible. I remember my Hasselblads being pretty bad, which is one of the reasons I tended to use Rolleis in the field instead.
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Agree about the sensor heating issue.
As for the other - keep some spare batteries around.
Tony Jay
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When the camera is mounted on a tripod, I always use MLU.
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Nikon D800E, handheld, viewfinder:
If my subject isn’t moving too fast, I use the "Mup" function on the drive-dial.
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For specific situation - yes. for example, in long exposure astro-photography, especially through a telescope at high or higher powers, mirror lock up, film or digital, is pretty much a defacto standard. Yes you do burn up the batteries, which is why many guys in these situations will use external power supply. Dedicated CCD astro cameras used to always come with peltier cooling too, because as those CCDs ( and now CMOS chips) go for long exposure, the heat causes a lot of noise other wise.
But outside of specific situations like that, I don't know. I personally think the most common use of mirror lock up today is not the mirror lock up itself, but simply the fact there are situations where people like to use live view, and you get mirror lock up by default in those cases.
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Not completely, at least not for me. LV is great for all the things you mention. But, it burns battery power, and leaving it on for extended periods will heat up the sensor, adding shadow noise.
Most using LiveView in place of MLU aren't leaving it on for extended period of time. Using LiveView is a natural for most landscape work because it is the best way to focus ... if so you already have it on. No need to disable it, then use MLU. As far as battery, for a landscape shooter it's doubtful this will have any affect. I shoot with a friend who has a Canon 5D Mark 3, always uses LiveView and battery is never an issue for him
As far as sensor heating up, theoretically true, but you really do not leave it on for an extended period of time. 30 seconds here, 20 seconds there. If you are only using it as a replacement for mirror lock up we're talking only 4 or 5 seconds, which is pretty insignificant for both noise and battery power. I tested noise with a 5D Mark 2, shooting several blank frames with a lens cap on. To test the sensor I turned LV on for 1 minute, took a shot, repeated immediately for a total of 5 minutes. Processing these with a few exaggerated settings in LR shows the resulting noise, and there really wasn't any difference (more noise) in any of the LV shots.
And unless you use a remote shutter release or trigger the shutter via the timer, pushing the shutter button will cause some small amount of camera shake, regardless of where the mirror might be.
true, but this is true and the same for either LV or MLU, and I don't think anyone suggested using LV negates the requirement to use a remote releae of some kind or self timer.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (with Canon cameras, I've never tested this with a Nikon) is LV has a slight advantage in reducing possible camera movement. The 1st curtain in Canon's cameras is now electronic ... there is only a second curtain. The second curtain covers the sensor at all times other than during LV or an exposure. If you take a shot with MLU, that curtain remains in place and when the exposure starts must be moved out of the way. If the camera is in LV, the curtain is already open. This means the only possible vibration of the shutter can happen as the exposure ends.
Is this significant? Hard to say, but if looking for the absolute best practice to prevent has much possible vibration, this is the way to go. considering the sensels on the sensor are smaller than a red blood cell it doesn't take much of a vibration to spread light from the intended sensor onto a neighboring sensel.
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... personally think the most common use of mirror lock up today is not the mirror lock up itself, but simply the fact there are situations where people like to use live view, and you get mirror lock up by default in those cases.
Perhaps for some..
Most using LiveView in place of MLU aren't leaving it on for extended period of time. Using LiveView is a natural for most landscape work because it is the best way to focus ... if so you already have it on. No need to disable it, then use MLU. As far as battery, for a landscape shooter it's doubtful this will have any affect. I shoot with a friend who has a Canon 5D Mark 3, always uses LiveView and battery is never an issue for him
As far as sensor heating up, theoretically true, but you really do not leave it on for an extended period of time. 30 seconds here, 20 seconds there. If you are only using it as a replacement for mirror lock up we're talking only 4 or 5 seconds, which is pretty insignificant for both noise and battery power. I tested noise with a 5D Mark 2, shooting several blank frames with a lens cap on. To test the sensor I turned LV on for 1 minute, took a shot, repeated immediately for a total of 5 minutes. Processing these with a few exaggerated settings in LR shows the resulting noise, and there really wasn't any difference (more noise) in any of the LV shots.
true, but this is true and the same for either LV or MLU, and I don't think anyone suggested using LV negates the requirement to use a remote releae of some kind or self timer.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (with Canon cameras, I've never tested this with a Nikon) is LV has a slight advantage in reducing possible camera movement. The 1st curtain in Canon's cameras is now electronic ... there is only a second curtain. The second curtain covers the sensor at all times other than during LV or an exposure. If you take a shot with MLU, that curtain remains in place and when the exposure starts must be moved out of the way. If the camera is in LV, the curtain is already open. This means the only possible vibration of the shutter can happen as the exposure ends.
Is this significant? Hard to say, but if looking for the absolute best practice to prevent has much possible vibration, this is the way to go. considering the sensels on the sensor are smaller than a red blood cell it doesn't take much of a vibration to spread light from the intended sensor onto a neighboring sensel.
This is a good summary of the practical aspects of using Live View.
One can either use Live View without really groking the benefits or one can use Live View and lever the advantages for the best possible image quality (IQ).
Certainly, using a Canon 5D III in Live View, one gets much more than an alternative MLU function. On a tripod I can fine-tune focusing, make sure that the camera is level, and check my exposure with a real-time histogram.
If one's shooting style is more of a run-and-gun type approach Live View may not be that helpful but nonetheless I have used the levelling and exposure functions handheld.
I do shoot a lot without a tripod but prefer to shoot on a tripod when possible and when I do I always use Live View and a remote release to maximise IQ.
Tony Jay
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For me, less about the subject being static and more about the camera being static. Whenever the camera is static, then I use MLU.
You are right, that is a more precise statement.
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I agree with the post above. But it really depends on the type of camera and the shooting situation. I use MLU regularly, and I'd say it's definitely worth the extra effort!
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Yes, I use MLU and a wired remote when the camera is on the tripod. Since my camera is a Canon, that means using Live View, which does eat batteries.
The "faint fuzzies" astrophotographers using very long exposures for very few photons are the ones who go for the external Peltier cooler modifications to the camera body. They are trying to capture objects that are very close to the sensor-noise ratio. If you have an easier target, computation alone on many captures will separate your target from noise.
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I've been debating about mirror lockup for some time now. I understand its benefits to reduce vibrations, but is it worth the extra trouble?
My shoes will stay on without tying the laces but I still find it's worth the trouble. ::)
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Do you deactive the Steady Shot function? ;-)
usually not. most of the time it does not activate when on a tripod. and when it does activate, this can be heard, so you know something went wrong.
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If the camera is on a tripod? Always, I can't really think of any reason not to
+1 and always w/ wireless remote.
Rand
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For macro shots, even on a tripod, with a Sigma SD9 which has a really clunky mirror action.
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Every shot, either through live view on the 5d3 or MLU on the 645 AFDii, that's got a big old mirror which flips up with a great big slap. All my shots are off a tripod so it's no big issue.
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I´m mostly a landscape fotografer, but every now and then I do some wildlife and portraiture.
When ever it´s suited and applyable I use mirrorlockup, tripod and remotswitch !
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Yes, and I really, REALLY miss the simple mirror lock up as I have on the F3 Nikons. That is simple. This electronic wonderbox has me going into menus, pushing buttons and screwing around - doing most anything it seems to take my mind off the image I am trying to make.
Then, some of the cameras I have tried don't let you sit there with the cable release at the ready for a few minutes waiting for the subject to move into perfect position for a frame/image. They shut off after a bit. Or, some will only put the mirror up for a short time and then take the image rather than letting you lock the mirror up and wait a few minutes for the subject to come where things are just right.
Why isn't it as simple as with the old F3's since all the digital stuff is supposed to be so wonderful? The damn engineers and computer jokers don't seem to understand photography and using cameras in the field.
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Hi,
Me, about the same, but I mostly use self timer.
Best regards
Erik
I´m mostly a landscape fotografer, but every now and then I do some wildlife and portraiture.
When ever it´s suited and applyable I use mirrorlockup, tripod and remotswitch !
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If you want MLU on the 7D without live view then create a C1/2/3 with it enabled in your favourite shooting mode.
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I shoot 100% from a tripod and use MLU 100% for landscapes. For most wildlife I use a full gimbal head and of course no MLU.
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There is a tutorial on LL:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/mirror-lock.shtml
that describes a small test - putting a small container of water on the hot shoe.
I tried it a couple of weeks ago - with some surprises.
I set my tripod up on the living room floor (standard nominal 2 x 10 joists with 3/4" sheathing and 1 1/2" concrete topping) with a 100 macro and a dish of water on top of the hot shoe. I used a remote/cable shutter release, and set the exposure time to ten seconds.
1) the mirror-up slap was very obvious - ripples immediately,
2) when the ripples stopped (this took just over one second), I pressed the remote button again to open the shutter,
3) surprisingly from the shutter opening, there were more ripples, although noticeably less than from the mirror slap.
4) at the end of the 10 second exposure, the shutter closed resulting in more ripples - this of course has no effect on the image.
5) what I did notice that bothered me was that I had to keep the cord attached to the camera perfectly still or the very small force from the moving release cable would cause ripples.
Glenn
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Here's a question for the debaters; how much effect does mirror slap actually have on the image and at what shutter speeds? If you have a long exposure, say thirty seconds, the length of time that mirror slap happens is insignificant. How about the other end of the spectrum, a fast shutter speed has little impact from the mirror. So where is the magic range where it is significant?
Don't attack me for being a heathen. I'm just asking a question.
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As I remember from an article in Photo Techniques from about 15 years ago, it varied by camera, but was typically the worst at about 1/30th of a second.
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I believe it would also vary with focal length, but in a general sense probably anything slower than a 1/60 and up to 1 or 2 seconds the vibration could degrade the image. Don't get me wrong, I believe in doing everything possible to insure a quality capture, and I will probably continue to lock up the mirror every time it's practical to do so.
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Here's a question for the debaters; how much effect does mirror slap actually have on the image and at what shutter speeds? If you have a long exposure, say thirty seconds, the length of time that mirror slap happens is insignificant. How about the other end of the spectrum, a fast shutter speed has little impact from the mirror. So where is the magic range where it is significant?
Don't attack me for being a heathen. I'm just asking a question.
Good question - while doing the test noted previously (with the dish of water on the hot shoe), it became apparent that the results couldn't be quantized.
Further to what I wrote, I also tried the same "test" with a 70-200 f/2.8 lens - much less vibration. As more mass, particularly if the mass is spread out over a longer distance, it will dampen vibrations.
But the question remains - how much is OK, and how much is too much? I don't know, but I'd like to eliminate it if possible (I'm not counting on being able to eliminate all vibrations).
Wildlife shooters that use crop bodies have a bit of an advantage as the mirror is smaller and lighter which produces smaller vibrations.
Glenn
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Good article, instead of water you could use the iSeisometer app which would let you compare the amount of the vibrations. I tried this comparing a Canon camera using Live View vs Mirror lockup. Using Liveview instead of mirror lockup indeed shows a slight advantage (although both are substantially better and acceptable vs normal).
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When the camera is mounted on a tripod, I always use MLU.
I often use ML even when not on a tripod (because I forgot to change it back). :D
Glenn
EDIT: Wayne: I use ML on my 30D (no LV), and LV on my 5DII.
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I will use exposure delay more often than not or liveview. But I will rarely use MLU. I find it more convenient to use the delay that works without draining batteries from liveview and works well with intervalometer and continuous drive, say for brackets and stacking shots.
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Not completely, at least not for me. LV is great for all the things you mention. But, it burns battery power, and leaving it on for extended periods will heat up the sensor, adding shadow noise. And unless you use a remote shutter release or trigger the shutter via the timer, pushing the shutter button will cause some small amount of camera shake, regardless of where the mirror might be. Perhaps you don't often shoot in the desert, or do long sequences of exposures. I've learned the hard way to be judicious about LV in those circumstances.
So, I still need MLU quite a lot, and it's annoying not to have a dedicated control. My first Canon film camera, which I bought in 1981, had a nice mechanical MLU switch. You kind of get used to a thing like that over a couple of decades. Not having one on a DSLR, where the simplest of buttons could trigger the function, is pretty exasperating.
There was an article in Photo Techniques in the late '90s where someone tested several different kinds of cameras at a whole range of shutter speeds. It turned out that MLU made a big difference up to surprisingly fast shutter openings for some camera/lens combos. It wasn't even very predictable; some inexpensive cameras had mirrors that induced a small amount of vibration, while a few expensive pro models were terrible. I remember my Hasselblads being pretty bad, which is one of the reasons I tended to use Rolleis in the field instead.
Yeah.
MLU on a tripod with a static point of focus - as mentioned, sometimes static point of focus is desirable even with a moving subject.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone mentioned eyepiece blanking plates with MLU/live view, which should theoretically help contrast a bit, though I'm not sure I notice.
Static subject + tripod -> CD-AF, MLU, eyepiece blanking, cordless trigger or timer.
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Quite a bit of misconception evident earlier in this interesting thread.
MLU is useful within a fairly restricted range of parameters.
But, like using a remote release or delayed action, it really only becomes necessary or noticably beneficial in relatively few circumstances. Use a fast shutter speed (how I hate that incorrect terminology!!) of, say, over 1/500 second and the blur from mirror vibration will be insignificant. Equally, at long exposures - say over 5 seconds - the significance of the very brief duration of mirror vibration again becomes insignificant.
I will tend to use it if I require ultimate sharpness when using shuitter speeds of 1/60 - 1 second.
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no need with a Sony a99.
or with the a65
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Hi,
I always use MLU when it is appropriate.
Best regards
Erik
Quite a bit of misconception evident earlier in this interesting thread.
MLU is useful within a fairly restricted range of parameters.
But, like using a remote release or delayed action, it really only becomes necessary or noticably beneficial in relatively few circumstances. Use a fast shutter speed (how I hate that incorrect terminology!!) of, say, over 1/500 second and the blur from mirror vibration will be insignificant. Equally, at long exposures - say over 5 seconds - the significance of the very brief duration of mirror vibration again becomes insignificant.
I will tend to use it if I require ultimate sharpness when using shuitter speeds of 1/60 - 1 second.
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Yes, and I really, REALLY miss the simple mirror lock up as I have on the F3 Nikons. That is simple. This electronic wonderbox has me going into menus, pushing buttons and screwing around - doing most anything it seems to take my mind off the image I am trying to make....
sorry,i don't understand - on a d800 and the Nikons before it is a dial on top of the camera - even in total darkness you can use it - just turn it completely to the right. ( the other end is single exposure)
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Yep, indeed.
It is in fact mandatory. Some cameras would in fact probably end up being less sharp on a tripod without mirror lock up than handheld at reasonably fast shutter speeds.
Cheers,
Bernard
I agree, especially with the mirror 500mm. in the hand it has less trouble ( sharper) than on a tripod. In fact the sharpest pictures i get with a non mirror camera and electronic shutter ( like the Nikon V1- i have not tried the sony 7 but that must be the same) I am sure we will see a lot of those in the near future...
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With the Nikon D200 I always used MLU and cable release (and tripod), but I destroyed 3-4 MC30, now with the D800 I use only the exposure delay (and tripod). Two seconds seem to be enough, surely my wallet is grateful.
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Most all of my landscape work is done on a tripod, using LV and/or MLU (or Exposure Delay Mode on the Nikon D800E) for nearly every shot. I found it interesting what Wayne Fox said about sensor heating and the resulting thermal noise when using LV. I was under the impression the effects of additional sensor heat are more noticeable than his own tests have shown (I have to admit, I’ve never done my own testing). On the other hand, the time I tend to spend in LV usually constitutes more than just a few seconds (it’s more like minutes!). I use PC-E lenses quite a bit and finding the optimal amount of tilt combined with critical focusing at 100% magnification simply takes time. Because of this, I’ve gotten into the habit of first exiting LV and waiting several seconds before making the exposure. However, if Wayne’s tests are any indication, I’ve perhaps been unnecessarily complicating my workflow. It’s time to run some tests!
Larry
P.S. LV definitely consumes more battery power. I never shoot without two backup batteries in my bag.
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+ 1