Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: darktiger on July 23, 2013, 11:44:53 am
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Currently I have a Canon 5D Mark III. And I love the camera. But I want to dip my toes in MF. I have tried to find reviews on say a 645AFD or 645AFD II with say a Leaf Aptus 22mp back vs a D800 or Canon 5D Mark III. There are not a lot of reviews, and most of the reviews are old (2007-2008).
So in a studio, is there a big difference between a D800/5DMkIII and a 645ADF/II and the Aptus 22mp back? I am looking for images out of the camera with minor editing.. I would like skin tones, sharpness, etc to be as close to natural as possible.
Thank you for any information/feedback anyone can offer.
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Currently I have a Canon 5D Mark III. And I love the camera. But I want to dip my toes in MF. I have tried to find reviews on say a 645AFD or 645AFD II with say a Leaf Aptus 22mp back vs a D800 or Canon 5D Mark III. There are not a lot of reviews, and most of the reviews are old (2007-2008).
So in a studio, is there a big difference between a D800/5DMkIII and a 645ADF/II and the Aptus 22mp back? I am looking for images out of the camera with minor editing.. I would like skin tones, sharpness, etc to be as close to natural as possible.
Thank you for any information/feedback anyone can offer.
There are many differences (size, lenses, color, speed, tethering experience, flash sync speed, detail rendering, method of viewing, autofocus type/speed). Some will be positive, others negative. They are VERY different systems.
Best bet in my blatantly biased (see signature) opinion is to work with a dealer that can set up a test for you to see for yourself those differences.
Second best bet is to work with a dealer that can provide you example raw files of various backs that are similar in style/type to the ones you shoot.
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personally if this was a business purchase i wouldn't bother with changing to an older 22mpixel back. i have used various phase/blad 22mp backs(not leaf) and would spend the money on the best lenses for 35mm rather than a low mp MFD system, big difference going to a 39-40mpixel system though and for me that's a more logical step.
your situation is probably different than mine though.
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Hi,
I recently acquired a P45+ and a Hasselblad 555 ELD with a few lenses. I don't shoot studio, but I have written down some of my experience here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/76-my-medium-format-digital-journey
Some of that may be of interest.
Best regards
Erik
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There used to be a guy here - Fred BGG or something like that - who had a lot of advice about the very question troubling you.
He seems to have departed, but I'm sure you'll be able to find some of his writing if you search the pro parts of the site.
To cut a possibly long debate short - his views, roughly, were that Nikon D800 cameras met many of the MF claims and offered many particular advantages that MF simply couldn't, for a fraction of the cost. Mostly, this didn't go down well with MF owners for obvious reasons, and I've only had MF film cameras, so can't offer input based on personal experience.
Of course, as with anything on the Internet, you can read and discuss yourself to a standstill.
Some readers here live in cities where they have the luxury of trying before they buy; I never had that, and my feeling, consequently, is that if you can afford it, perhaps the best route is to buy comfortably within your means and just see how it goes over a few months. If you are in your late forties, don't buy anything: chances are it's your menopause doing the talking, and you'll make tragic mistakes. I sure did, several expensive times. My wife said not a thing, but wept quietly into her G&T. She had the patience and understanding of a saint.
;-(
Rob C
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Hi,
Yes, Fred BG had much good advice. I would say the comparison with the Nikon D800/D800E is very valid.
There is a very nice guy here, Michael Ezra, who shoots Mamiya ZD and Nikon D800 (or Nikon D800E?) I'm sure he is glad to share.
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
There used to be a guy here - Fred BGG or something like that - who had a lot of advice about the very question troubling you.
He seems to have departed, but I'm sure you'll be able to find some of his writing if you search the pro parts of the site.
To cut a possibly long debate short - his views, roughly, were that Nikon D800 cameras met many of the MF claims and offered many particular advantages that MF simply couldn't, for a fraction of the cost. Mostly, this didn't go down well with MF owners for obvious reasons, and I've only had MF film cameras, so can't offer input based on personal experience.
Of course, as with anything on the Internet, you can read and discuss yourself to a standstill.
Some readers here live in cities where they have the luxury of trying before they buy; I never had that, and my feeling, consequently, is that if you can afford it, perhaps the best route is to buy comfortably within your means and just see how it goes over a few months. If you are in your late forties, don't buy anything: chances are it's your menopause doing the talking, and you'll make tragic mistakes. I sure did, several expensive times. My wife said not a thing, but wept quietly into her G&T. She had the patience and understanding of a saint.
;-(
Rob C
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Hello Darktiger.
This is my take on your question. Firstly I have been a medium format and large format shooter for 28 years and have be the proud owner of a Leaf Aptus 75 for the past seven years using it on a Sinar P2, Mamya RZProIID and Mamiya 645 AFDII camera systems.
Since the Nikon D800E and D800 cameras came out last year I have sold all of the above systems cause for me and my business they became completely redundant.
This is a list of the lenses I use below with the Nikons
Nikon 14-24mm F2.8 G lens
Nikon 16-35mm F4.0 VRII G lens
Nikon 24-85mm F3.5-4.5 VRII G lens
Nikon 70-200mm F2.8 VRII G lens
Sigma 15mm F2.8 Fisheye lens
Nikon 24mm F3.5 PC-E lens
Nikon 28mm F1.8 G lens
Nikon 35mm F1.4 G lens
Nikon 35mm F2.8 shift lens
Nikon 45mm F2.8 PC-E lens
Nikon 50mm F1.4 G lens
Nikon 60mm F2.8 G Macro lens
Nikon 85mm F1.4 G lens
Nikon 85mm F2.8 PC-E lens
Nikon 300mm F4.0 D lens
Nikon TC-14E Teleconverter
Nikon TC-17E II Teleconverter
The new G lenses from Nikon are simply superb in resolution with there new Nano coatings.
I also use a Horseman VCC Pro adaptor for my table top work, art reproduction and some car shots. This adaptor for me is indispensable the lenses I use on it are,
Rodenstock 60mm, 135mm, 150mm Rodagon lenses
Rodenstock 75mm, 80mm, 105mm, 120mm Apo Rodagon lenses
So as you can see the range and versatility is vastly superior to the Mamiya/Phase system.
So for me and me alone Medium format does not offer me any advantages to the quality of my work and to my clients.
Darktiger if you like please contact me personally and I can send you some raw images to show you what I am talking about.
Also FredBGG was banned from Lula hence why he is not here any more. Fred and I keep in contact and I have to say I miss his opinions on this site.
Cheers
Simon
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"...Also FredBGG was banded from Lula hence why he is not here any more. Fred and I keep in contact and I have to say I miss his opinions on this site...."
I hope you are not serious; (!?!)
I very much appreciated his on arguments based opinion... i found his contribution very to the point and informative.
He got a lot of criticism but usually none that made his arguments less valid...
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Hi Kers,
That is what Fred said in his email to me last week.
Cheers
Simon
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Also FredBGG was banded from Lula hence why he is not here any more. Fred and I keep in contact and I have to say I miss his opinions on this site.
Cheers
Simon
Simon,
Do you mean that he was banned from the LuLa forum? If so, what were the reasons?
Regards,
Bill
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Hi Bill,
Yes he writes that he is banned from the Lula forum. He did write why he was banned but I don’t think it is right for me to mention the reason given on this site as it is between Fred and the administrators of this forum.
Cheers
Simon
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Do you mean that he was banned from the LuLa forum? If so, what were the reasons?
I'll venture a guess. Civility. Or I should say, his complete lack of it.
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I feel like most of the disadvantages of the medium format more or less are equalized in the studio. Most backs will easily keep up with the flash recycle and usually the tethering works even better with firewire then those mini usb cables. I would want at least 39megapixel though. Smaller will not differentiate from most dslr's now in resolution and more so, 22 megapixel backs seem to be very prone to moire, at least in my experience. I shoot a P45+ and it is just rock solid in the studio. They do keep improving the DSLR's though. I am not sure if in another generation or so, if I would not switch to dslr.
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I'll venture a guess. Civility. Or I should say, his complete lack of it.
Quit talking about someone who is not in the room.
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Who, who is without sin may cast the first stone...
Best regards
Erik
I'll venture a guess. Civility. Or I should say, his complete lack of it.
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Quit talking about someone who is not in the room.
Yes, and even better, point out a post where he was vulgarly offensive or seriously mistaken in his advice. If anything, he could post interesting comparison images, and even if they did become a bit boring to regular readers here, they were still invaluable to newbies or anyone doing research, such as the OP.
Oh well.
Rob C
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So in a studio, is there a big difference between a D800/5DMkIII and a 645ADF/II and the Aptus 22mp back? I am looking for images out of the camera with minor editing.. I would like skin tones, sharpness, etc to be as close to natural as possible.
I rarely work in a studio, but I use a Sony A900, Nikon D800 and Hasselblad H3D, so my experience may be of some relevance.
A word of caution first. Basically, if all one does is photograph test charts or measure sharpness, dynamic range and color accuracy, one will find out that 24x36 cameras work very well indeed. But this is also a consequence of how the test is done: by reducing all variables to the common denominator, one will necessary find commonalities.
If you are taking pictures of real subjects and are "looking for images out of the camera with minor editing", you may find out that MF images are generally more pleasing. Most noticeably: caucasian skin tones are more pleasing out of the camera and bokeh is generally smoother. The difference is not like day and night, but it is noticeable to the eye.
You should also not forget that there are differences beyond sensor size:
-MF has a much better viewfinder
-MF has a much poorer AF: accurate but slow
-aliasing is a problem on MF backs
-MF top iso range is quite low
-size and weight (obviously)
-lack of zoom lenses (or it is even more size and weight)
-MF lenses are generally very sharp but relatively slow. The availability of very fast lenses in 24x36 allows it to produce thinner depth of field than MF, BTW (contrary to the popular belief).
(the following two do not concern the 645AF, which has a focal plane shutter:
-MF has a higher flash sync speed, which is useful with outdoor flash
-MF has a much lower top shutter speed)
Also: before you buy a 22mp back, I strongly suggest to check the used prices of more recent backs or the price of a new Pentax MF camera. Prices have dropped in the past months.
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Finally he got banned. I used to wonder how Michael could put up with him. I believe the main reason was that he was a very valuable contributor to the forum.
It sucks anyway. I wish him to come back with all his knowledge and opinions. His opinions were often provocative and repetitive though.
Hey Fred, if you read this, please come back in due time and this time practice a little common sense. I miss you already.
Eduardo
I'll venture a guess. Civility. Or I should say, his complete lack of it.
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Lot's of good advice has already been said.
I also agree that a camera system is a very personal choice. Medium Format Digital systems however do not have as wide acceptance and appeal as say a Canon or Nikon system for many reasons. They do offer some unique possibilities. It's all about the pro's and con's in your specific case and your needs/wants and style.
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"This is my take on your question. Firstly I have been a medium format and large format shooter for 28 years and have be the proud owner of a Leaf Aptus 75 for the past seven years using it on a Sinar P2, Mamya RZProIID and Mamiya 645 AFDII camera systems."
Since the Nikon D800E and D800 cameras came out last year I have sold all of the above systems cause for me and my business they became completely redundant.
Hello Simon Harper
Can you tell me if your latest works that you have in your website are shoot with D800 ?
http://www.harperphoto.com/latest-images/
How can you deal with product shots and macros with the diffraction limit of the D800 of about f8/f11 ??
Great work...
Pedro
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Hi,
To begin with there is nothing like a hard diffraction limit on the D800, diffraction is same on all systems and increases when stopping down. According to a test Tim Parkin made a Nikon D800 at f/16 outperforms or at least matches a Sony Alpha 900 (24 MP full frame) at f/8. That test of course assumed correct sharpening.
Depth of field is much shorter on larger formats so you need to stop down 1-2 stops more. At least my Sonnar 150/4 maxes at f/5.6 (on axis) and looses significantly at f/16 when used with a P45+: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/76-my-medium-format-digital-journey?start=12
The image you refer to had probably some help from Photoshop, I would guess.
Best regards
Erik
"This is my take on your question. Firstly I have been a medium format and large format shooter for 28 years and have be the proud owner of a Leaf Aptus 75 for the past seven years using it on a Sinar P2, Mamya RZProIID and Mamiya 645 AFDII camera systems."
Since the Nikon D800E and D800 cameras came out last year I have sold all of the above systems cause for me and my business they became completely redundant.
Hello Simon Harper
Can you tell me if your latest works that you have in your website are shoot with D800 ?
http://www.harperphoto.com/latest-images/
How can you deal with product shots and macros with the diffraction limit of the D800 of about f8/f11 ??
Great work...
Pedro
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Hi Pedro,
75% of the shots on my “Latest Page” web site are taken with the Nikon D800E. Most of the car shots are shot at F16.0 with the D800E and the wine bottles where shot with my Horseman VCC adaptor using a Rodenstock 150mm Rodagon lens.
When it comes to the Rodenstock Rodagon and Apo Rodagon lenses I have found there sweet spot is between F8.0-F16.0.
Ciao
Simon
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Do you get much C/A with the non apo rodagons?
What are they like sharpness wise in the corners when shifted a bit?
Big difference between them and the nikon's?
Thinking about my next purchase which might be a mint S/H H4D-40 or a horseman/rodenstock system. I like the cleanliness when shooting dark colours like purple's and greens that i feel are better on MFD but I also like the idea of the movements with the horseman and live view that works (MFD iLife view is abysmal)
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Hi Mr Smith,
1/ Never experienced any C/A with any of the Rodenstock Rodagon and Rodenstock Apo Rodagon lenses.
2/ Resolution is sharp as a tack. These lenses are designed with large images circles and are primarily the same as large format lenses without a shutter.
3/ I can’t really say as I use the Horseman when I need its special features. As a past user of a Sinar P2 and recently a Mamiya RZ system I do like the bellows focusing of the Horseman VCC and combined with all the movements I find it indispensable.
When you consider the Schneider PC TS Apo-Digitar 120mm F/5.6 Lens (For Mamiya/Phase One) cost $4,643.00 US this Horseman VCC system is far more versatile and a better cost effective alternative
Unfortunately Horseman don’t make a VCC unit with a Hasselblad mount. They used to but it would be very rear to find one for sale.
Now some self promotion. It so happens that I am selling my original Horseman VCC adaptor which I had an engineer make an adaptor to fit an Mamiya 645 camera body and could be modified to fit an Hasselblad. I designed it in such a way that the camera could rotate from vertical to horizontal without having to unmount the camera. The shortest focal length you can use with the Mamiya attached is the Rodenstock 105mm.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=80412.0
So the versatile of this system for me is indispensable.
Ciao
Simon
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Thanks. I currently use a canon 90 ts-e which for me is indispensable but I wouldn't entertain the 120 Schneider as I know it's not a brilliant lens for the money.
A vcc for a Nikon/canon is never going to be dead money for me and not a big investment as I know it would get used a lot in the studio. There are a few instances where a 40-50mpixel H4 would be of use (not at RRP though)
Think ill sit it out a bit longer and see if anyone starts doing horseman in the U.K.
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Hi Mr Smith,
Total agree with you on the Canon 90mm TS-E lens I have the Nikon 85mm PC-E lens which is great.
When seeing the variety of movements the original and new Horseman VCC can do simultaneously its true versatile comes shining through.
Cheers
Simon
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Thank you everyone for the feedback...
This is just a hobby, so this would not be used "professionally". I just wanted to see what opinions on this matter with ones who have switched.
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Hi,
I have been shooting something like two months now with the P45+.
My observations this far:
- Sharpness definitively an advantage over my Sony Alphas (24 MP full frame)
- Shooting, the way I do is little difference ( I tend to shoot more frames on the P45+)
- Shadows are cleaner on the Alpha 99 SLT, but now problem on P45+
- Color? I don't know. Sony Alpha is know tno have good color, what it may mean...
P45+ and Hasselblad 555ELD is a keeper, not very practical but fun.
Best regards
Erik
Thank you everyone for the feedback...
This is just a hobby, so this would not be used "professionally". I just wanted to see what opinions on this matter with ones who have switched.
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Hi,
Here is a page with some raw samples: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/RawImages/Samples/ Right click on image or download link to for raw image.
Still working on the code for generating the page...
Best regards
Erik
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Hi Darktiger
I own and use both Medium Format Digital and several DSLR's. We often use both on the same job, each one has its inherent advantages. Sometimes we choose just one system depending on the brief, but usually we use both.
For me the super high flash sync speed of the PhaseOne IQ backs is critical, I often shoot outdoors and this gives me great flexibility. Are DSLRs as good as Medium Format ? This would all depend on what you need/want the Camera to do? Sometimes a DSLR is a better choice, oftentimes for me though it's medium format, but this is a consequence of how I like to shoot. I also love the depth, look and feel of Medium Format.
We did a shoot a few months ago at a large TV station here in London, after doing the scout I was certain I'd shoot it all on my Nikons. When we were prepping the day before the shoot, I suggested to my assistant to throw the Phase case in, just in case. On arriving at the location, we set up for the first shot on the DSLR and I just wasn't 100% happy with how the image looked, so I tried the Phase and straight away the shot was right. I know this sound ridiculous, I was shocked. I really thought we'd use the Nikon. The DSLR shot was very good, but the MF was better. We ended up shooting the whole job with my P30+ back on the Phase One DF+ camera. Why the P30+ ? because this has great files at 800iso, we now also have the IQ180 (this replaced our P65+) and I'm using the sensor plus feature at 20mp's for those times when I don't need an 80mp file.
Last Wednesday we did a magazine shoot with Donovan Bailey (gold medal Atlanta Olympics 100metres, was the fastest man on the planet) Guess what? We shot the DPS and holding shots with MF and the reportage images with DSLR.
Look carefully at what you are doing and how you are doing it, this is a business decision.
The argument for and against MF isn't just about resolution, for me the look and feel of MF is often preferred. I think it makes getting the shot easier too, when I want something special.
Good luck
Adrian
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After reading all of these response and given the fact I have been about 6 months in shooting MF, I thought I would share my thoughts. Is MF better? Absolutely! For what I shoot (architecture and interiors) and how I shoot (slow and well planned), the system enhance my ability greatly.
I use an Arca Swiss RM3Di with a P45+. The first thing that makes this system much better than the DSLRs is the how the camera works, namely independent x and y movements. This is a much more intuitive design and easier to use, especially if I need to stitch two images together with movements on both axis. Second, the technical camera lenses (especially with the wides) are far better than any Canon or Nikon (or even Mamiya or Hassy) lens I have ever seen. They are just so sharp; it is incredible. They also have no distortion what so ever. No longer do I need to look at an image and think "is that barrel distortion or is the building not built straight or both, and how do I know how much to remove?" Now if there is a curve, I know it is the building.
Finally is the IQ. Honestly, when I made the jump, IQ was not really a concern. I know it would be better, but did not expect anything special. I thought I would still need to do the same layer blending as I did with the Canon. On my first shoot (an interior job) with the camera, I was able to capture an image in a single capture that I know would have required a layer blend with the Canons. This impressed me greatly; the DR is just longer. Additionally, I love the fact that I can do multiple exposures in the same digital capture. This makes it easier for me to balance interiors even more.
With all this being said, I shoot slow and take my time. I always use a tripod, so MF works well for me. If I shot fast and relied on ambient light, I would not use a MF system. Also, if this was not a business purchase, I would not be shooting MF.