Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on July 03, 2013, 10:02:22 PM

Title: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 03, 2013, 10:02:22 PM
We used to treat Russian political refugees exposing the KGB's acts as heroes, how do we look at Edward Snowden today?

- Criminal clearly endangering the national security of our countries?
- Heroe trying to inform us about the Kafkaian exaggeration of our security agencies who seem to be working without any democratic control?

I'd be interested in your views my friends.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Kirk Gittings on July 03, 2013, 10:28:47 PM
He could be both.....
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: KirbyKrieger on July 03, 2013, 11:43:08 PM
He's the personification of a very large aperture and a (so far) thin depth of field.  His prints merely hint at what he might do -- and, personally, I think a little more sharpening would go a long way towards making his good images excellent.   For now all we an do is guess and wish him good light, and, particularly, a robust set of back-ups.

We would do well, though (imho) to slip a more nuanced scale under the needle of our judgement.  The gamut of human action is much more complex that a line fixed to "Hero" on one side and "Criminal" on another allows.  Even in the supposedly distilled world of military engagement "Hero" and "Criminal" reveal more about those who use such labels than the actions themselves.  The murderers at Béziers were surely heroes, if only for a day (when better armed heroes tried to deprive them of loot), as were those who bombed Pearl Harbor.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 04, 2013, 01:19:33 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/americas/bolivia-plane-snowden/

dogs on a leash...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chairman Bill on July 04, 2013, 04:55:37 AM
His revelations expose criminal wrongdoing (lying to Congress is a felony) by senior figures in the US intelligence & security services. No arrests as yet, funnily enough.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: ripgriffith on July 04, 2013, 05:23:20 AM
I don't think it is an issue over which reasonable people can reasonably disagree.  Unless blinded by idealogy or some sort of  perverted patriotism (which is maybe the same thing), one must see that the criminals here are Obama and his NSA lapdogs.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 04, 2013, 06:26:55 AM
Oh were public life the simple thing some would have it be!

The reality is different. There are always infinite layers and there have to be.

In a world where every government, 'friendly' or blatantly not so realises that alliances and friendships between governments are always based on self-interest and can switch at the roll of a revolution, it's patently madness and lack of due diligence to leave one's nation unprotected from possible/probable international political power shifting. The only way you can do that is by knowing what's really going down in other governmental circles, not what they tell you is the reality.

Would you have your government the only one neglecting its responsibilites to stay ahead of the game?

As for the whistleblowers, I'd jail the lot and dump the keys. The surprising thing is they passed any screening to get to a position where they can do so much international harm.

If you really want to help the world or even 'just'  Mexico, why not start at home and do something about the appetites of all those junkies driving the murder of so many people across and along the Rio Grande? Fix that first. It can be done if the will is there. A grateful world will pay tribute to you.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Schewe on July 04, 2013, 06:53:08 AM
Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?

Yes...

He is both...he knew full well he was breaking the law (he admitted as such) and yes he exposed what some would consider "useful content"...it really depends on which side of the equation the "useful content" falls...personally, I think he did nobody any favors. Much of what he (and others) have disclosed failed to deliver any real useful context. Raw data is raw data and needs a degree of context to comprehend...if selective eavesdropping prevents deaths, can you really argue against that? Can you really make the argument that privacy trumps everything? Yes, if you are doing something nefarious...not so much if you are a normal citizen. If you are doing nothing nefarious, why would you care?

I live in an area where certain high priority politicians have been known to visit (yes, I've had my phones taped and keywords scrubbed to determine if I was a "threat" by the Secret Service–sadly, The SS thought I was "safe") and I have no problem with that...we've had Clinton and Obama in our neighborhood (pretty sure we've not had any Republicans in our hood–it's pretty democratic here in Chicago). And I have no problem with the NSA recording and evaluating my calls or emails. I'm not a terrorist...I'm not planing an overthrow of the government...the biggest thing I think about this whole thing is that the more data that is evaluated, the more difficult it will be to evaluate. Talk about drowning in data...but if they can mine some useful data, more power to them.

So, does the question which is coming from Japan (Pretty sure Bernard doesn't live in the states) make any difference? You bet...the view outside of the US is different from within...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 04, 2013, 08:43:53 AM
I'll be polite to explain I was the cause of another website banning political discussion.
Not because I'm an impolite poster or anything,
but because the facts and truth sometimes aren't what people want to hear.
So there were 4 million dead in Iraq.
There is the obvious distancing of the police state from its very purpose,
and no one says much.  Tazering grandmas fer goshs sake
So, if you want law enforcement reading lula let's have these posts.
Because the truth is real.
And they'll be here shortly if they're not already.
So I figure anything I say here will make its way right to where I want,
and I say some incendiary if perfectly legal things.
I'd suggest we don't encourage this on this site.
There'll be law enforcement wasting money reading drivel
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 04, 2013, 08:56:53 AM
America has in recent years been openly imploring members of Iran's intelligence to "spill the beans" with respect to nuclear programs but if you "spill the beans" of the American secrets you will be hunted. Double standards? This brave man paid a heavy penalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

Because Israel and the USA are "best pals" I believe there wasn't any condemnation by the USA. IMO it takes a brave person to become a whistler blower and no doubt he will suffer the consequences. :(
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2013, 09:22:33 AM
He should have stood his ground and defended his position here in America.  Many Americans would have come to his aid and supported him.  His running makes him seem like an ego-seeking narcissist seeking his 15 minutes of fame.  If and when he gets arrested, not many Americans by then will care what happens to him.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Harald L on July 04, 2013, 09:31:54 AM
Don't wrestle with a pig because you get dirty as a pig and in the end you will be perceived as a pig.

What did R.S. thought when he joined Booz, Allen, Hamilton to work for those agencies? The world of intelligence services had never been the home of moral and integrity. He's old enough to figure out that he was heading into a dirty business. So what's the fuss?

In my opinion he's either a nitwit or a criminal, perhaps both. In the first case he just experiences the wonderful process of evolution.

A hero? No, my heroes are not dumb.

Harald
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2013, 09:37:05 AM
One thing everybody seems either to forget or ignore is that when Snowden went to work for the NSA he took a solemn oath to preserve the secrets with which he was entrusted. Nobody who violates that kind of oath is a "hero."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: opgr on July 04, 2013, 10:16:54 AM
One thing everybody seems either to forget or ignore is that when Snowden went to work for the NSA he took a solemn oath to preserve the secrets with which he was entrusted. Nobody who violates that kind of oath is a "hero."

You seem to ignore that that is totally and utterly irrelevant in international espionage.

Perhaps he was contacted and payed by the Chinese in the years prior to this incident to commit espionage. It wouldn't surprise me at all, and would explain the rather contorted unfolding of events.

(And by consequence, perhaps he was hoping to receive a hero's welcome over in China, although I don't believe that is the case. I still wonder though what he was looking for in Hong-kong.)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 04, 2013, 10:42:19 AM
Rosa Parks broke the law too. Just saying.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2013, 10:47:58 AM
You seem to ignore that that is totally and utterly irrelevant in international espionage.

And who, in espionage, do you consider a "hero," Oscar? Understand, after 26 years in the Air Force and three wars I'm fully aware of the need for espionage. But "hero" is something different.

And yes, Slobodan, Rosa was a hero, but she didn't break her word or a pledge when she became one.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 04, 2013, 11:02:55 AM
Russ, isn't it true in any civilized army in the world that you have to follow orders unless they are criminal in nature? I would assume the same rule applies to pledges and oaths.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: opgr on July 04, 2013, 11:37:35 AM
And who, in espionage, do you consider a "hero," Oscar? Understand, after 26 years in the Air Force and three wars I'm fully aware of the need for espionage. But "hero" is something different.

I wouldn't be knowledgable enough to answer.
It certainly wasn't meant as an argument to call anyone a hero.

It simply seems to me that the oath makes it a legal case in the US, but has no relevance in other countries. What worries me most is the fact that international airspace was so easily closed on the basis of pure conjecture, and in countries that have nothing to do with the alleged perpetration. What legal (democratic) basis was there for closing that airspace? Who decided to do so? How did they manage to do that relatively quickly and easy?

It's fine that the US is conducting its own fox-hunt on the guy if there is a legal basis for it, but clearly the measures currently being taken do not seem to correlate with the incident.

I suppose I'll just wait for the next Clancy novel. Leave conspiracy theory to the expert, I say.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2013, 11:44:32 AM
Russ, isn't it true in any civilized army in the world that you have to follow orders unless they are criminal in nature? I would assume the same rule applies to pledges and oaths.

Not the same thing at all, Slobodan. When you hire on at the NSA you voluntarily make a solemn pledge. When you receive an order in the military you're not pledging anything. You've already pledged not to follow illegal orders.

But let's get serious. Everybody's acting as if Snowden is a hero because he divulged the fact that the NSA is gathering and processing statistical data on the origin, destination, and duration of telephone calls and the origin and destination of emails. There's not an intelligence agency in the world that wasn't already well aware of that. That part of Snowden's "revelation" is about as significant as a revelation of the secret that the sun will come over the horizon tomorrow.

But he revealed a lot more than that, and the other stuff is going to cost lives and a lot of pain for a lot of people. There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: kers on July 04, 2013, 01:25:51 PM
...
There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.....

This is new for me.. any sources?


.... What worries me most is the fact that international airspace was so easily closed on the basis of pure conjecture, and in countries that have nothing to do with the alleged perpetration. What legal (democratic) basis was there for closing that airspace? Who decided to do so? How did they manage to do that relatively quickly and easy?
I agree,.. and as far as i know there is no international legal way to check a diplomatic airplane…(Try the airforce one..!) But then Americans are not subjected to laws that does not suite them..

It is always difficult to make your mind up about things you do not know enough about - only from newspapers. But i was surprised that  there was no direct denial on any of the statements Snowden made.

If it is true that so many people like him have access to tapped information then I wonder it the cure is not worse than the pain.
It is time all the private content over the internet must be encrypted... in that way their smart searches won't work directly...


Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2013, 01:47:13 PM
I thought this NSA thing was about phone calls not internet.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2013, 01:56:56 PM
It's both, Alan, but it's actually about source, destination, and in the case of phone calls, duration. Our miserable "media" have made it sound as if NSA people are reading the contents of everybody's emails and listening to their phone calls. That kind of crap sells newspapers and grabs TV viewers. In the end though, if there's an indication phone calls or emails between somebody in the U.S. and a foreign country might involve terrorism NSA has to get a ruling from a FISA court before it can listen in or read the emails. The whole thing that people are raising hell about is nothing more than a statistical analysis of communications traffic. It's a lot less invasive than Google or Amazon analyzing your web searches and purchases.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2013, 02:01:25 PM
This is new for me.. any sources?

I overshot, Pieter. At this point it's all speculation. You can read about the speculation in the Wall Street Journal, the Weekly Standard or the Washington Examiner. But what it boils down to is the difficulty of believing he was able to grab that much stuff without help.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 04, 2013, 02:55:55 PM
Even Snowden himself acknowledges that he committed a felony, which is another way of calling yourself a criminal.

The issue of whether is also a hero is another matter. I tend to think of him as a dangerously naive egotist who mistakenly believed he was acting in accordance with some lofty moral code.

I think what he really did was to damage my country's ability to use an important tool in the effort to identify terrorist threats.

The NSA program that Snowden betrayed was not about listening in on phone calls. The metadata they were using is the same information you get on your monthly phone bill--numbers called, along with date and duration.

The NSA plugs this information into a huge computer database which uses it to recognize patterns of communications between persons of interest. That helps determine who may need to be investigated more deeply. It's not spying. It's shaking the haystack to see if a needle falls out.

Snowden was not only naive, he was stupid. I don't believe he was acting in concert with an enemy. He was probably acting on his own. I think he's being truthful when says that he was given the means to gather the data he did. IMO, that's more of an indictment of the private NSA contractor who vetted and hired him than anything else.

Ultimately, what it will all come down to is either Snowden will languish for the rest of his life in some third world backwater, or he's going to be repatriated and spend a very long time behind bars. Either way, the life he enjoyed before now is over.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Kenneth Sky on July 04, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
I would refer you to a book recently published:Dirty Wars. In it the author shows that most presidents of the USA since Ronald Reagan have abrogated congressional and judicial oversite in their conduct on the "war on terrorism" and have outsourced intelligence gathering and covert actions to unelected and unaccountable corporations. This behaviour is alluded to by John LeCarre in his most recent novel about the British government as well (but the latter is fiction, of course). Where were all these high minded patriots when their constitutionally granted civil rights were taken away from them by the "Patriot Act"? Since 9-11, it seems security has trumped civil rights in America.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2013, 06:49:28 PM
There's certainly something to that, Kenneth, but the President can't really abrogate congressional oversight unless the Congress lets him. The executive and congressional branches are in it together. If you're a congressman or a president and you outsource decisions, then when mistakes are made you can claim that the mistakes weren't your fault and wash your hands of the whole thing. As far as the Court is concerned, it's pretty hard for the supremes to step in unless there's a pretty clear violation of the Constitution. The reason security has, in some cases at least, trumped civil rights is that a majority of the members of our society no longer know a damned thing about history or government or pay any attention to what their elected officials are doing to them. People are voluntarily surrendering their liberty. It's just too hard for people in an advanced society to stay on top of things and then do the difficult things you have to do to keep your freedom. Freedom isn't free, but our intelligentsia and our media tell people it is and they don't know any better.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 04, 2013, 11:27:32 PM
So, does the question which is coming from Japan (Pretty sure Bernard doesn't live in the states) make any difference? You bet...the view outside of the US is different from within...

I don't think this is about US vs non US Jeff.

It was revealed yesterday, as a consequence of Snowden's actions, that France does the same thing to its citizens. More or less evolved we don't know.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2013, 11:54:56 PM
Maybe Snowden can go to France and get a job there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: ripgriffith on July 05, 2013, 02:58:10 AM
But he revealed a lot more than that, and the other stuff is going to cost lives and a lot of pain for a lot of people. There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.

I hate to be so crass as to call a spade a spade, but this is right-wing conspiracy crap, nothing more.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 05, 2013, 03:37:32 AM
But he revealed a lot more than that, and the other stuff is going to cost lives and a lot of pain for a lot of people. There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.

Looking at facts, the odds are probably 10,000 times higher than our friends and families die from cancer that will not have been fixable since money was spent on Prism super computers instead of being spent on cancer research...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 05, 2013, 04:50:53 AM
Looking at facts, the odds are probably 10,000 times higher than our friends and families die from cancer that will not have been fixable since money was spent on Prism super computers instead of being spent on cancer research...

Cheers,
Bernard




This is true, but it ignores the hard reality that countries, both 'friendly' and foe, are in terminal competition and that means now problems demanding now solutions. Some problems can't be shelved when it can mean the loss of sovereignty. Think of Cuba and the missiles. They were on their way - not just a theoretical possibility. You think anything has changed, that religion today is any less explosive an issue than a nuke? Does anyone believe that killing off a nation's trade possibilities is any less a disaster for it than dropping a few bombs upon it?

Nothing got safer: the methods of defeating another state just got smarter.

It won't get better. It's what humans are and have always been. Read your history over the last couple of thousand years.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 05, 2013, 01:56:17 PM
I hate to be so crass as to call a spade a spade, but this is right-wing conspiracy crap, nothing more.

No kidding, Rip? How about explaining what the "conspiracy" is. Is it a conspiracy to accuse Snowden falsely of stealing secrets? Seems to me I read that not only did he confess, he bragged about it. Is it a conspiracy falsely to claim a security loss as a result of Snowden's theft? Where, exactly, is the "conspiracy?" And why is it a "right-wing" conspiracy? Seems to me a bunch of left-wing reporters have been deeply involved in following and reporting on this fiasco. Maybe your spade is a club.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 05, 2013, 02:48:39 PM
Think of Cuba and the missiles.
what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Kenneth Sky on July 05, 2013, 03:03:23 PM
As this blog site is about photography and we have strayed into geopolitics lets remain adults and treat each other civilly. We can respectfully disagree without resorting to incendiary language. As for me, I think I'll not return to this thread.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 05, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.

?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: PeterAit on July 05, 2013, 03:27:15 PM
I don't think it is an issue over which reasonable people can reasonably disagree. 

So people must agree with you on this issue or else they are, by definition, not reasonable? Now, there's a great way to start an intelligent conversation.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: PeterAit on July 05, 2013, 03:32:55 PM
As for the whistleblowers, I'd jail the lot and dump the keys. The surprising thing is they passed any screening to get to a position where they can do so much international harm.

So, no Pentagon papers, no Watergate revelations, no Iran-Contra information, no inside view of the Enron implosion, no public awareness of the willful negligence leading to the BP oil spill, is that what you want? Not me.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 05, 2013, 03:34:55 PM
what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.


Vlad, when were you born?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: AFairley on July 05, 2013, 07:34:49 PM
The reason security has, in some cases at least, trumped civil rights is that a majority of the members of our society no longer know a damned thing about history or government or pay any attention to what their elected officials are doing to them. People are voluntarily surrendering their liberty.

Because people will happliy trade their freedom for the illusion of "security."  I remember a comment by Pres. Bush that his job was to "keep Americans safe."  Um, no, the president's job is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."   It's sickening the way this county is letting the rights that were paid for and preserved with the blood of generation after generation be stripped away with hardly a whimper.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 05, 2013, 08:46:32 PM
...That part of Snowden's "revelation" is about as significant as a revelation of the secret that the sun will come over the horizon tomorrow...

If all he did is point out the obvious, insignificant, statistical banalities, then what's the problem? He did not divulge any secrets in that case, did he? So, not really a spy. You can't have it both ways, Russ.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 05, 2013, 08:58:21 PM
Because people will happliy trade their freedom for the illusion of "security."  I remember a comment by Pres. Bush that his job was to "keep Americans safe."  Um, no, the president's job is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."   It's sickening the way this county is letting the rights that were paid for and preserved with the blood of generation after generation be stripped away with hardly a whimper.

The thing is that it is not just the US. That disease has spread to the rest of the Western world and Japan is about the same.

The thing is so bad that we don't even dare to speak about it. Raising concerns is seen as a lack of patriotism. Such discussions are stamped with the "political" label and stored away in a drawer. This is the most puzzling and efficient form of censorship, the one we impose on ourselves.

You have to admire the genius of the approach that has resulted in Western citizens opposing less to the monitoring of their lives than former USSR citizens used to. ;)

But this isn't a political debate, it isn't about left vs right, it is about what we call democracy. It isn't enough to call a country a democracy for one to be a democracy. The leaders of North Korea and Iran also call themselves democratic.

There are just too many lobbies obviously benefiting from paranoia for this to be completely innocent. If you believe for one second that those guys are not pushing their interests first, think again. This is the lesterland debate all over again. We have enough historical precedent to know that 9.11 was going to enable the present situation to happen. I am not even interested in what happened on 9.11, my point is that some people have been taken obvious advantage to push extremely far non democratic practises as a result of 9.11. And again, not just in the US.

What is so special about the spying of our lives that some guys decide they can proceed with the plan without even telling elected officials - and therefore the citizens who are supposed to be in control - about it?

Who is it that truly runs our countries?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 05, 2013, 09:10:00 PM
If all he did is point out the obvious, insignificant, statistical banalities, then what's the problem? He did not divulge any secrets in that case, did he? So, not really a spy. You can't have it both ways, Russ.

Read the rest of it, Slobodan. What I said is that the "media" are getting off on the communications analysis part of the revelations, which really is trivial considering that it's the kind of stuff every country has been doing since before the beginning of recorded history. But he's turned over a lot more that's far more damaging.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: ripgriffith on July 05, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
I hate to be so crass as to call a spade a spade, but this is right-wing conspiracy crap, nothing more.
Sorry, left out a word: right-wing conspiracy-THEORY crap.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 05, 2013, 09:38:26 PM
... But he's turned over a lot more that's far more damaging.

Like what?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Klein on July 05, 2013, 10:08:27 PM
what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.

Vlad: No point getting upset.  I think the Cold War is over.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 05, 2013, 10:15:38 PM
. . . how do we look at Edward Snowden?

I'd have done the same thing, and take every chance I get to expose state & federal employees who break our laws.

"It has been thought a considerable advance towards establishing the principles of Freedom, to say, that government is a compact between those who govern and those that are governed: but this cannot be true, because it is putting the effect before the cause; for as man must have existed before governments existed, there necessarily was a time when governments did not exist, and consequently there could originally exist no governors to form such a compact with.

The fact therefore must be, that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a compact with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist."

~ Thomas Paine
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 06, 2013, 04:35:09 AM
Nobody is offerng a solution for the alternative: a country wilfully leaving itself wide open to foreign exploitation and/or manipulation.

Ideal conditions have never existed in anything. It's each nation's duty to do the best it can, however it can, to stay ahead of the game. Denying that the game is being played all around us doesn't change a thing beyond rendering the naive state even more vulnerable.

As for the difference betwen keeping America 'safe' and doing the same for the 'Constitution', that's a definition too slim for me to discern. I'd have thought them conjoined twins.

But then, I'm not an American. Nor a twin.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: opgr on July 06, 2013, 06:45:18 AM
Nobody is offerng a solution for the alternative: a country wilfully leaving itself wide open to foreign exploitation and/or manipulation.

And how exactly would you call that closure of airspace then?

As for constitutional rights: if you tell somebody to shut up when he's arguing in opposition of "freedom of speech", are you then defending that freedom?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 06, 2013, 09:47:29 AM
Like what?

Like this:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-01/opinions/40297899_1_intelligence-nsa-u-s-defense-department

Go ahead, pull a Henry Stimpson and tell me that gentlemen don't read each others' mail. Details on when and how we've penetrated other countries' communications systems is catastrophic for our ability to acquire intelligence. And don't give me any crap about how nasty it is for the U.S. to do this while the rest of the world doesn't read other countries' mail. Every country does it. Safety lies in doing it better than the competition.

The naivety I'm reading in this thread is astonishing.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2013, 10:26:20 AM
Go ahead, pull a Henry Stimpson and tell me that gentlemen don't read each others' mail. Details on when and how we've penetrated other countries' communications systems is catastrophic for our ability to acquire intelligence. And don't give me any crap about how nasty it is for the U.S. to do this while the rest of the world doesn't read other countries' mail. Every country does it. Safety lies in doing it better than the competition.

A valid question would be whether a majority of US citizens are aligned with your views that its ok to lower your standards to whatever other countries do.

In the present case, it appears that nobody asked their opinion, probably out of concern that they may vote against such practises.

If anything, this is what this debate is about.

Because if the citizens do not decide, then who does and according to what rules?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 06, 2013, 11:07:55 AM
Unlike in Russia, China, and many, many other nations, in the United States the citizens do decide, Bernard. They decide every time they go to the polls. It's true they make some very bad decisions from time to time, but they're the ones who make the decisions. Our Congress and our President, elected by the citizens, knew in great detail and approved what was going on at the NSA.

Nobody in his right mind would put to a national vote questions about specific intelligence operations -- for a number of reasons, the first being that if you're at war with, say, Japan, it hardly makes sense to ask the people to vote on whether or not it's okay to break the Japanese naval code.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 06, 2013, 11:08:41 AM
Well, Bernard, are you suggesting that the States go out on a limb and drop all hidden means of protecting themselves? Be the only country in the world doing that, abandoning their national responsibilities?

I find it very strange that any adult could argue the case for burying the collective head in the sand and doing nothing behind the scenes in order to save itself and even those reluctant members of its protesting citizenry from possible foreign harm.

It sounds almost as if the Fifth Column is ready to outvote the rest! Openly. There is no threat, everyone knows that, don't they? Yeah, right.

Hey ho real freedom!

Why am I thinking of lambs to the slaughter?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2013, 05:53:28 PM
Our Congress and our President, elected by the citizens, knew in great detail and approved what was going on at the NSA.

Really?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-snowden-forum-trial-idUSBRE95G0NQ20130617

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2013, 05:55:41 PM
Well, Bernard, are you suggesting that the States go out on a limb and drop all hidden means of protecting themselves? Be the only country in the world doing that, abandoning their national responsibilities?

Never wrote that. I am saying that the decision to do these things should be left to a body of elected representatives.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 06, 2013, 05:58:12 PM
Really?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-snowden-forum-trial-idUSBRE95G0NQ20130617

Cheers,
Bernard


Really. Reuters told only part of the story, which isn't uncommon for biased media outfits. I guess you've never heard of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. It's headed by Dianne Feinstein as a matter of fact, not exactly a right-wing crank, and it has 8 Democrats and 7 Republicans on it. They all knew about the work the NSA was doing and agreed with it. If they'd disagreed they'd have been able to stop it in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2013, 06:00:20 PM
Really. Reuters told only part of the story, which isn't uncommon for biased media outfits. I guess you've never heard of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. It's headed by Dianne Feinstein as a matter of fact, not exactly a right-wing crank, and it has 8 Democrats and 7 Republicans on it. They all knew about the work the NSA was doing and agreed with it. If they'd disagreed they'd have been able to stop it in a heartbeat.

You are correct, I didn't know about the SSCI. They have apparently been playing their control role very well on the WMD related lies having triggered the Irak war among other things.

I am relieved to know such mechanisms are in place.

Now, is it not precisely the SSCI that James Capper lied to on March 12, 2013?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/06/watch-top-u-s-intelligence-officials-repeatedly-deny-nsa-spying-on-americans-over-the-last-year-videos/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 06, 2013, 06:03:59 PM
Better read the whole thing my friend. I had to add to it after I started it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 06, 2013, 06:43:32 PM
Like this:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-01/opinions/40297899_1_intelligence-nsa-u-s-defense-department
...

Russ, that's just another speculative opinion, like yours is. Like this one, except this contains some modicum of facts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-spy

Even the US government is not charging him with espionage:

Quote
... Yes, he was indicted under the Espionage Act, but the actual charges against him are theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communication of classified intelligence information to an unauthorized person.)...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 06, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
uhoh

thy're in the wire again Sir,
broken arrow! REPEAT!
BROKEN ARROW
ok no really the denseness of the American electorate forcefed the facts by an ever burgeoning red-mongering
that plays out in a familiar if untuned lurch-
so we can't all agree-
never-
period end of story, maybe not for you,
but for me.
I realized as I was speaking to an indigenous teacher the other day that there are a million ways of seeing things,
and to ever be told the right way is the way that follows the script that has been handed down from generation to generation,
and to not expect that the natural order will take over if the evolution calls for it is just science denial.
Forget snowden for a minute.
Think of the idea,
that anyone, anywhere can blow the lid off of previously hidden dealings,
well these are those times.
War is peace, freedom is control,
and money is the solution to everything.
Not workable and at least the idiot snowden accelerates the failure of the people to push back against the police state.
Illustrates how the truth just doesn't matter.
Pictures?
Falsified documents?
That's nothing compared to the reeming the world gets at the hands of the OLD power structure,
and its failure to recognize early on the human race will move on without them.
They should learn to cooperate with the 99% and willingly accept the paradigm shift.
Just like in the 80's when people said "don't go there" as some kind of interjection,
and the dirty harry line, go ahead make my day sounded stupid after the second time you heard it
there won't be a general recognition that the culture wars are over by the millions and millions of right wing fanatic types in the us, that were apt to use those lines at any time in their existence.  I don't care if it was 1976 at a party where everyone was on coke...  If you ever used either of those lines, OR
got/get any of your material from the EIB Network,
you're disqualified too,
also if you're more than 20% heavier than the ideal weight for your height and body type,
or if you have any pre exising conditions excluding at least ten to twenty years of excellent health and the ability to contribute a net gain to the functioning society,
well you won't have any say either,
so when you act like feinstein is a left wing lapdog,
I LAUGH IN YOUR FACES>
SHOW ME ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO BACK YOUR CLAIM<
and convince me she isn't atilla the hun reincarnated,
gop and tp ought to send her flowers fer goddsake,
she is only my senator because no one else has a chance and if you think I'd vote for Issa or a crony of his,
well
just look at POerry, Scott,
and now the assault on African American and Latino voting rights in the US
Snowden= SNOWJOB
where in the future we might see a savings from having the tools we use to spy,
used as a means to further the rights of man.
But in my parallel  universe I know there aren't easy solutions,
as long as everybody regards the calories we need as an object to enrich themselves
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 06, 2013, 06:56:02 PM
Never wrote that. I am saying that the decision to do these things should be left to a body of elected representatives.

I think Bernard, that you fell into Rob's trap. He successfully sidetracked the real debate from a government spying on its own citizens en masse, to governments spying on each other. I, for one, could not care less if they do it to each other. They've been doing it for ages, including "our staunchest allies" - just check the history of Israeli spies in the US.

The real debate should be about the Orwellian surveillance of citizens, about the boiling frog strategy, checks and balances, misuse of bogeyman issues (communism, terrorism) as a pretext for expansion of executive powers, erosion of constitutional and civil rights and privacy, etc.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2013, 07:12:26 PM
I think Bernard, that you fell into Rob's trap. He successfully sidetracked the real debate from a government spying on its own citizens en masse, to governments spying on each other. I, for one, could not care less if they do it to each other. They've been doing it for ages, including "our staunchest allies" - just check the history of Israeli spies in the US.

The real debate should be about the Orwellian surveillance of citizens, about the boiling frog strategy, checks and balances, misuse of bogeyman issues (communism, terrorism) as a pretext for expansion of executive powers, erosion of constitutional and civil rights and privacy, etc.

Yep, I had assumed that, as a reasonnable old man, Rob agreed with us on this point. ;)

Now, if you let fear and anger govern your life, you are bound to become a victim of the dark side of the force. Star wars said it all! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 06, 2013, 09:10:57 PM
Sorry, Slobodan, but it's hard for me to believe you really think communications analysis is "surveillance of citizens." What do you think about Google and Amazon tracking your searches and purchases? In the case of the NSA, what they're looking at is who you call or email and, for phone calls, how long you're on the line. In the case of Google and Amazon they're looking at what you say. Now THAT's "Orwellian surveillance of citizens.

That's it! I'm out of here. I can't stand the unbelievable naivety in this thread.

Even the title of the thread shows ignorance.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2013, 09:18:31 PM
That's it! I'm out of here. I can't stand the unbelievable naivety in this thread.

Indeed, I also cannot believe the naivety of those thinking that democratic control mechanisms have been effective as far as prism goes.

But considering your avoidance of this discussion, I gather that you feel that citizens don't need to know. Somehow this reminds me of the movie "A few good men". Citizens can't handle the truth, can they?

They wouldn't be able to order a jet fighter pilot to shoot down a plane with 300 people on board to prevent the death of 20,000 in a city down below, would they?

Once you go there, what are the other things citizens also don't need to know?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 06, 2013, 10:02:28 PM
... What do you think about Google and Amazon tracking your searches and purchases?...

I do not like it, and I am not alone. At least I can opt out, using various options on my browser.

As for "only" gathering and analyzing statistics by NSA... that's what you are speculating is happening, the "only" part. Once they have full access without any control, who's to say they are going to stop at "only"? Besides, there is huge amount of information about one's life in the "only" statistics (i.e., metadata).

Once again, Russ, you can't have it both ways. Either the information government is gathering is innocent, harmless, obvious, etc., in which case the guy did not reveal anything new or damaging, which would make him harmless as well, or the surveillance is not so harmless as you want us to believe. And remember, even the US government does not consider him a spy.

As a side note, it is hard to believe that a young subcontractor (i.e., outsider) would have clearance level necessary to access really secret and crucial data.

The whole thing brings back the "sweet" memories of the Soviet times (with a reference to "walls having ears"):
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ray on July 06, 2013, 10:12:27 PM
The real debate should be about the Orwellian surveillance of citizens, about the boiling frog strategy, checks and balances, misuse of bogeyman issues (communism, terrorism) as a pretext for expansion of executive powers, erosion of constitutional and civil rights and privacy, etc.

Exactly! This is the disturbing aspect of this increasingly wider surveillance of the citizens of any country. We accept that there should be CCTV cameras in public places for our own security, to record any thuggery or theft, and we accept that a citizen's private conversations should be secretly monitored if there is evidence that the citizen is engaged in illegal activities, as determind by a judge.

One could make a case that any citizen who is not engaged in any illegal activities, should not object to his private emails and phone calls being caught up in the net of surveillance, and if he/she is not doing anything wrong, that he/she should have nothing to fear.

Unfortunately, in order for such a case to be sound, it would have to be based upon an assumption that all employees of the security agency who have access to such surveillance information were fair-minded, unbiased and corruption-free in all respects. That would seem to me to be a very naive assumption.

I can't help associating this situation with the concept of the Christian God as an all-knowing, all-seeing being or entity, who perceives our every action and thought. One cannot hide from Him. We may be heading towards a future Orwellian society where the concept of the ways of God have been completely taken over by the Government.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 07, 2013, 04:53:49 AM
I think Bernard, that you fell into Rob's trap. He successfully sidetracked the real debate from a government spying on its own citizens en masse, to governments spying on each other. I, for one, could not care less if they do it to each other. They've been doing it for ages, including "our staunchest allies" - just check the history of Israeli spies in the US.

The real debate should be about the Orwellian surveillance of citizens, about the boiling frog strategy, checks and balances, misuse of bogeyman issues (communism, terrorism) as a pretext for expansion of executive powers, erosion of constitutional and civil rights and privacy, etc.


1. You flatter me, Slobodan!

2. Commies/bogeymen/terrrorists: so, they don't exist. Guess the Germans built the Wall themselves in order to sell more cars; Cuba didn't really sit there, awaiting the arrival of the rocket-carrying Russian ships... it was all Hollywood, just like the Moon landing which we all know is impossible because, being constructed of green cheese, the Moon would have melted from the heat of a retro-rocket. And of course, no US citizen can buy tons of explosive and demolish an entire building -  no way, Timmy McVeigh!

Slobodan, I'm sure you argue this simply to pass the time.

And Bernard, old men are to be congratulated for having become that, not silently mocked for losing some/all their hair and having gained a few lines of character around their faces. Just look at the two lead Stones, if you will! Gone the callow youths and lo the majestic old men of means!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 07, 2013, 05:02:37 AM
I can't help associating this situation with the concept of the Christian God as an all-knowing, all-seeing being or entity, who perceives our every action and thought. One cannot hide from Him. We may be heading towards a future Orwellian society where the concept of the ways of God have been completely taken over by the Government.


Isn't that why young girls get shot for encouraging other young girls to go to school?

Oh - is that perhaps why we have a presence in Afghanistan, or is it to protect the poppies so as to counter the cross-border trade from Mexico? Do we they have oil in Afghanistan?

I get confused sometimes - it all looks like concentric circles. Thank goodness it all gets explained to me, clearly, here in Lula!

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2013, 05:06:42 AM
no US citizen can buy tons of explosive and demolish an entire building -  no way, Timmy...

He acted alone. He didn't call anyone nor sent any emails. Prism would not have helped.

It will take Prism 2.0 when they will systematically hack every single computer to search for forbiden words. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 07, 2013, 06:32:20 AM

Isn't that why young girls get shot for encouraging other young girls to go to school?

Oh - is that perhaps why we have a presence in Afghanistan, or is it to protect the poppies so as to counter the cross-border trade from Mexico? Do we they have oil in Afghanistan?

I get confused sometimes - it all looks like concentric circles. Thank goodness it all gets explained to me, clearly, here in Lula!

Rob C

Time for another holiday Rob? :(
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 07, 2013, 10:02:10 AM
Time for another holiday Rob? :(


Amen! At last: a sensible suggestion from left field!

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: ripgriffith on July 07, 2013, 10:08:01 AM

2. Commies/bogeymen/terrrorists: so, they don't exist. Guess the Germans built the Wall themselves in order to sell more cars; Cuba didn't really sit there, awaiting the arrival of the rocket-carrying Russian ships... it was all Hollywood, just like the Moon landing which we all know is impossible because, being constructed of green cheese, the Moon would have melted from the heat of a retro-rocket. And of course, no US citizen can buy tons of explosive and demolish an entire building -  no way, Timmy McVeigh!
Rob C
You and Russ are true footsoldiers in the National Socialist American army, loyal, obedient and unquestioning of the  truths imparted to you by the Masters of the Universe, Bush and now Obama.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on July 07, 2013, 10:15:33 AM
http://publicintelligence.net/un-state-surveillance-privacy-expression/

It's a Human rights issue and it clashes with the legal system, which is slow to react to the new technological capabilities to violate the internationally agreed human right to privacy and freedom of expression.

Tests have been devised to determine the acceptability of certain types of investigation by governments. It's all summarized nicely in the above linked UN Human Rights Council report.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 07, 2013, 01:58:55 PM
You and Russ are true footsoldiers in the National Socialist American army, loyal, obedient and unquestioning of the  truths imparted to you by the Masters of the Universe, Bush and now Obama.



Ummmm... but I'm Scottish?

But don't let being wrong yet again bug you: look the other way and you'll never notice. But you knew that already.

However, you do present an interesting case: from whence cometh your correct information? The tabloids? Television? Comics? Let us into your secret of perfect information that we may all benefit from the shining path you obviously tread. I already know where stamper gets his cues - but you are something new for me, so do share!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2013, 03:28:46 PM
1. You flatter me, Slobodan!

2. Commies/bogeymen/terrrorists: so, they don't exist....

Always happy to pay you a compliment, Rob ;)

I respect your eloquence and erudition too much to let occasional slips, well, slip.

As already noted, you picked a non-issue (government on government spying) and turned it into a giant straw man. You are doing it with a certain bombastic (pardon the terrorist pun) simplicity, non-sequiturs, false dichotomies, as if the only choice is between no spying at all and total, unrestricted one.

Or, take for example your view of bogeyman issues: no one suggested that communism/terrorism do not exist. That is simply a non-sequitur from what I said, and a gigantic oversimplification. I clearly said "misuse of those issues as a pretext..."

As for the bogeyman concept, I thing it is pretty much my own view of the things, so I can't cite a higher authority or academic work. Most countries/societies/religions resort to it at some point. Nothing works better to unify (and control) a nation as the existence of a powerful enemy. Most religions, especially organized ones, see the other religion as such a bogeyman. And yes, before you jump in with another oversimplification, sometimes the threat is real too. Nazi Germany had Jews as bogeyman. The US had milked communism as bogeyman for a number of years. You see, once you frame something as bogeyman, you can justify just about anything with it. It is one of those things that are taken for granted by the masses and not questioned. "Ah, we are doing it because of communism? But of course, go ahead." No need to explain or justify, just label it communism and you are free to do whatever you want.

But then, communism fell, and all of a sudden, there was a vacuum. No more bogeyman. Nothing to justify further power grab and keep the masses docile.

Enter terrorism. Once again, all it takes is to label something as such, and off you go! Create the biggest war budget known to mankind, bigger than all the rest of the world combined (and line the pockets of friendly private military contractors in the process)? No problem, we are fighting terrorism. Argue for a smaller government, yet preside over the biggest enlargement of the federal government? No problem, we are fighting terrorism. Arrest people, keep them indefinitely (!) without charging them (the most blatant power grab since Magna Carta Libertatum)? No problem, we are fighting terrorism. You want to torture? But of course, we are fighting terrorism. You want to pass Patriot Act? No problem, we are fighting terrorism. You want to arrest someone, render them to outsourced torture centers, without the right to a lawyer, without even letting their families know they are arrested (and if they do, make it a crime to even talk about it), keep them indefinitely? No problem, we are fighting terrorism.

Do I have to explain the boiling frog concept in so many words as well?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2013, 04:12:47 PM
Once again, Russ, you can't have it both ways. Either the information government is gathering is innocent, harmless, obvious, etc., in which case the guy did not reveal anything new or damaging, which would make him harmless as well, or the surveillance is not so harmless as you want us to believe. And remember, even the US government does not consider him a spy.

As a side note, it is hard to believe that a young subcontractor (i.e., outsider) would have clearance level necessary to access really secret and crucial data.

Slobodan, you need to learn to read more carefully. That's not what I said at all. Try a re-read. What I said is that there are two parts to the information Snowden stole and released:

He told us all about the NSA's communications analysis. That's the first and least significant part even though it's the "revelation" our "media" are pissing their pants over. As I said a couple times before, every intelligence agency in the world has known about this for a long, long time.

The media have made it sound as if the NSA is listening to everybody's phone calls and reading their emails. Fact is, nothing but a group of computer algorithms knows anything at all about who you're calling and for how long. Let me try to illustrate it this way. The computer knows that phone A calls phone B and phone C often and with fairly long calls. Phone B calls phone A and phone C often and with fairly long calls. At that point no human knows or cares about any of this. But finally, phone C starts making calls to Saudi Arabia and it turns out the calls are to a jihadi training camp. At that point the alarm sounds and people bring the facts before a FISA court and, we'll hope, get permission to listen in at least long enough to figure out what's going on, not only with C, but with A and B. Got that? Nobody's listening to your phone calls unless it becomes possible you're involved in a conspiracy connected to a terrorist operation. The media will never tell you this. It wouldn't sell newspapers or grab TV viewers.

What he didn't tell us about is part two: the stuff he gathered and released to both China and Russia about the extent of and methodology involved in penetrating communications systems outside the United States. Having had at least a glancing connection with communications intelligence during my twenty-six year military career I can assure you that's the revelation that's at least temporarily catastrophic for the United States.

That's not having it both ways, Slobodan.

But let's talk a bit about the consequences. Almost nobody on this thread seems to have even the foggiest clue about what it takes to prevent what happened on 9/11 happening regularly. The naivety being demonstrated is almost unbelievable. Most of the posters here seem to think this has something to do with politics. The fact that the composition of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, is headed by a Democrat and, outside of that, evenly balanced between Republicans and Democrats should tell you at least something. It should, but evidently it's not telling you anything. I know, it's a really difficult concept to grasp. Requires actually taking into account evidence instead of your biases.

Let's hope that by the time Snowden's stolen material trickles down to the jihadists the NSA had been able to undo at least some of the damage. If you think statistical analysis of communications traffic is undermining liberty, wait until you see what happens after a terrorist manages, as a result at least partially of Snowden's variety of treason, to detonate a "small" nuke in downtown Chicago. Have any idea what that would mean? You folks can all worry about the "boiling frog strategy," but what would happen after that would be sudden, extreme, and demanded by a vast majority of citizens. Then, Slobodan, you'll be able to worry properly about "walls having ears."

And yes, Slobodan, I have a hard time believing the NSA wasn't more careful and thorough about access to highly classified information. I know that when I got my own advanced security clearances something like this would have been impossible. Background checks in those days were extremely thorough, extremely intrusive, and extremely expensive. A guy with Snowden's background wouldn't have been able even to get a clearance for "confidential," much less secret or top secret, or, as in this case, a category beyond top secret. His prospective employers wouldn't even have bothered to ask for the expensive background check. They'd have booted him right out of the employment office once they got his application form.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2013, 05:47:08 PM
... to detonate a "small" nuke in downtown Chicago...

Thanks for contributing a good example for my terrorism-as-bogeyman theory, Russ. Years ago it would be "Russians are coming!"

I guess your guys failed to hack into Bed, Bath & Beyond. Had they done so, they would have uncovered numerous pressure-cooker purchases, crossed-referenced it with calls to mother in a Moslem country, sift through all cooking recipes, and presto, another terrorist attack foiled.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2013, 05:52:37 PM
Well, this certainly refutes everything I said, above, Slobodan. Great job gathering the facts and constructing the arguments. Bravo!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2013, 05:58:43 PM
From the department of What-Could-Possibly-Go-Wrong:

Edited to include a link to the whole Associated Press article. (http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/214527011.html)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 07, 2013, 06:03:34 PM
Well, this certainly refutes everything I said, above, Slobodan. Great job gathering the facts and constructing the arguments. Bravo!

Wait...this is sarcasm, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2013, 06:07:27 PM
Why would you think that?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: opgr on July 07, 2013, 06:30:21 PM

The naivety being demonstrated is almost unbelievable. Most of the posters here seem to think this has something to do with politics. The fact that the composition of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, is headed by a Democrat and, outside of that, evenly balanced between Republicans and Democrats should tell you at least something. It should, but evidently it's not telling you anything. I know, it's a really difficult concept to grasp. Requires actually taking into account evidence instead of your biases.


"Intelligence" of course being far more important than the Supreme Court…

(You know, that would be the institution that was really meant to ultimately protect your civil rights, and which managed to rid itself of the only remaining democratic judge. An appointment for life mind you and she wasn't even dead yet. All very conveniently during the bush administration. That should at least tell you something. But what do I care, I don't even live over yonder).

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2013, 08:14:41 PM
RSL,

I am not sure why you keep commenting about the terror risk and the need to take the right measures? This is not the core discussion.

The core discussion is whether Prism, and the equivalent measures taken in other countries, have followed the required democratic control processes. We know that the Senate control entity, the SSCI that you told us about in this very thread, was lied to about Prism. What other control mechanisms are in place then?

In this context, what makes you think that proceeding with Prism was the right thing to do?

Is citizens control not required for certain matters? Does the NSA have a supreme duty to protect the USA against certain things (what?). What makes you think that the NSA deeds are necesseraly good?

Let me ask you one simple question. When various gov entities told the world that Irak had weapons of mass destructions, did you believe them? You do realize now that those were not just mistakes, but purposeful lies designed to serve an agenda. What does that tell you about the credibility of those agencies and about how reasonnable it is to give up on control?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 02:04:39 AM
Prism doesn't require direct Congressional oversight, because the collection and use of metadata isn't spying. It's a means to determine who may warrant further investigation, which would be made much more difficult without Prism. The spying comes later, with prior approval from the FISA court on a case-by-case basis.

Anyone who thinks that Prism is spying either doesn't understand it, or they don't care what it really is because they believe that anything the NSA does is, by definition, evil, and by logical extension that cellphone communications should be a safe harbor for terrorists.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 02:50:09 AM
Prism doesn't require direct Congressional oversight, because the collection and use of metadata isn't spying...

Why is it so secret then? If it is such a normal, number crunching-only activity, why is it such a big deal that the guy made it public? Once again, you can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 08, 2013, 05:12:14 AM
Slobodan, it would be fascinating penning a reply to your missive, but there is no point: you simply take everything I write and say it is something that it most certainly is not. Time - mine at least - is short.

There is no way forward in these circumstances: you just believe in one thing and I in another - just as with stamper and his Red Clyde political beliefs and my own, first-hand working experiences there in engineering in the mid-fifties, when there was still huge employment, and companies would visit schools seeking recruits after the final-year exam results came out. Memories of being loved...

I recognize the harm these left-wing, idealistic and impossible ideologies create; why there is no shipbuilding there now, no car industry, and how even the English Midlands became an engineering desert beholden to a few remaining US branch-factories and, irony of ironies, to Tata, an Indian engineering giant for their very survival. (They also own much of the tea in the cuppas.) Oh, the Chinese bought the once-famous MG marque... I'm told they have also acquired Sunseeker, the foremost luxury-yacht builders we had. The latter reminds me of the letter posted here recently about the party drinking in the pub, and the ratio in which the tab got split. The rich guy eventually moved away when they beat him up out of gratitude for doing most of the paying... now they don't drink very much - they just sit around talking revolution. Or back on the Clyde, nationalism. Smaller is stronger. Obviously, nobody spent much time in the schoolyard

Just to pre-empt further accusations of my famous, alleged xenophobia: we owe the Japanese a debt of gratitude for having accepted special incentives to create car factories oop north; I also own non-British camera equipment, but then, who doesn't?

;-)

Rob C

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: tom b on July 08, 2013, 05:50:51 AM
When Osama bin Laden was caught he had thumb drives, no internet, no mobiles. Just saying…

Cheers,
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 08, 2013, 09:04:09 AM
Oh were public life the simple thing some would have it be!

The reality is different. There are always infinite layers and there have to be.

In a world where every government, 'friendly' or blatantly not so realises that alliances and friendships between governments are always based on self-interest and can switch at the roll of a revolution, it's patently madness and lack of due diligence to leave one's nation unprotected from possible/probable international political power shifting. The only way you can do that is by knowing what's really going down in other governmental circles, not what they tell you is the reality.

Would you have your government the only one neglecting its responsibilites to stay ahead of the game?

As for the whistleblowers, I'd jail the lot and dump the keys. The surprising thing is they passed any screening to get to a position where they can do so much international harm.

If you really want to help the world or even 'just'  Mexico, why not start at home and do something about the appetites of all those junkies driving the murder of so many people across and along the Rio Grande? Fix that first. It can be done if the will is there. A grateful world will pay tribute to you.

Rob C

I'll mark that up as one narc that has outed themselves.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 08, 2013, 09:13:38 AM
One thing everybody seems either to forget or ignore is that when Snowden went to work for the NSA he took a solemn oath to preserve the secrets with which he was entrusted. Nobody who violates that kind of oath is a "hero."

Or maybe he is protecting the constitution by trying to expose those who are ripping it to shreds?

Then again, if Americans no longer value what is written in the constitution and the rights it gives them, then maybe you're right and he's not a hero because the values which he believes in (those that are written into the constitution) are outdated.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 08, 2013, 09:25:18 AM
Unlike in Russia, China, and many, many other nations, in the United States the citizens do decide, Bernard. They decide every time they go to the polls.

The citizens decide who will sit in the chairs of Congress and in the White House. And that's it.

There's much debate about whether there is now any difference between the two parties.

The problem isn't who gets voted in, it is who's there that isn't voted in.

Who's that, you ask?

The entire military chain of command, for one.

The entire administration and government beaurocracy, for another.

The electorate voted out Republicans and voted in Democrats but in a few key areas, no change has been observable. Why is that?

Because the administration (or government employees) that run the government effectively decide what the policy will be, not who's elected in.

So all the while, the populace gets to think that they're having a say in how the country is run and that they've got a choice when really they don't.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 08, 2013, 09:32:21 AM
Prism doesn't require direct Congressional oversight, because the collection and use of metadata isn't spying. It's a means to determine who may warrant further investigation, which would be made much more difficult without Prism. The spying comes later, with prior approval from the FISA court on a case-by-case basis.

Anyone who thinks that Prism is spying either doesn't understand it, or they don't care what it really is because they believe that anything the NSA does is, by definition, evil, and by logical extension that cellphone communications should be a safe harbor for terrorists.

Tell you what. Since you're so ok with drag-net style collection gathering, why don't you volunteer to send the police the GPS coordinates of where you start and end every car journey you make?

That's just metadata that shouldn't be seen as spying, right?

I mean it isn't like they were following you everywhere you drove... and if you happened to one day end up being parked at the same place a crime was committed, you wouldn't object to them arresting you and/or doing a search of your home/office/car based on that metadata that they collected, now would you?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 08, 2013, 10:07:28 AM
He is both...he knew full well he was breaking the law (he admitted as such) and yes he exposed what some would consider "useful content"...it really depends on which side of the equation the "useful content" falls...personally, I think he did nobody any favors. Much of what he (and others) have disclosed failed to deliver any real useful context. Raw data is raw data and needs a degree of context to comprehend...if selective eavesdropping prevents deaths, can you really argue against that? Can you really make the argument that privacy trumps everything? Yes, if you are doing something nefarious...not so much if you are a normal citizen. If you are doing nothing nefarious, why would you care?

Jeff, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
... why is that relevant?

Because information can and will be misused by law enforcement to further their own ends. Their job is to arrest/convict and fine people for illegal activity, not to prove your innocence. If you start giving them bits of raw information that they can use for whatever purpose, then you're terribly exposed.

Quote
I live in an area where certain high priority politicians have been known to visit (yes, I've had my phones taped and keywords scrubbed to determine if I was a "threat" by the Secret Service–sadly, The SS thought I was "safe") and I have no problem with that...we've had Clinton and Obama in our neighborhood (pretty sure we've not had any Republicans in our hood–it's pretty democratic here in Chicago). And I have no problem with the NSA recording and evaluating my calls or emails. I'm not a terrorist...I'm not planing an overthrow of the government...the biggest thing I think about this whole thing is that the more data that is evaluated, the more difficult it will be to evaluate. Talk about drowning in data...but if they can mine some useful data, more power to them.

There was another organisation in the past, that collected a lot of information on the citizens of the country through various means.

The East German Stasi.

Is that a period of time during which you could imagine yourself feeling comfortable living in East Germany?

Do you find it odd that there are those in Germany that now refer to America's government as "soft totalitarianism"?

 Obama's Soft Totalitarianism: Europe Must Protect Itself from America (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/europe-must-stand-up-to-american-cyber-snooping-a-906250.html)

How the pendulum swings...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 08, 2013, 10:23:15 AM
Quote Rob.

Slobodan, it would be fascinating penning a reply to your missive, but there is no point: you simply take everything I write and say it is something that it most certainly is not. Time - mine at least - is short.

Unquote

You have had time to post 10269 posts. I hate to think how many more posts you would have managed if you had more time. ;D

Again a quote.

There is no way forward in these circumstances: you just believe in one thing and I in another - just as with stamper and his Red Clyde political beliefs and my own, first-hand working experiences there in engineering in the mid-fifties, when there was still huge employment, and companies would visit schools seeking recruits after the final-year exam results came out. Memories of being loved...

I recognize the harm these left-wing, idealistic and impossible ideologies create; why there is no shipbuilding there now, no car industry, and how even the English Midlands became an engineering desert beholden to a few remaining US branch-factories.

Unquote.

The reason why they disappeared was because Thatcher - may she rot in hell - butchered the industries and the left wing - and the working class - tried in vain to prevent it. It is all on record and your attempt to rewrite history is simply lies. :(

 


Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 11:32:11 AM
Why is it so secret then? If it is such a normal, number crunching-only activity, why is it such a big deal that the guy made it public? Once again, you can't have it both ways.

I'm not having it both ways. It's secret for the simple reason that we don't want to tip our hand to the people we're trying to identify with Prism. We don't want an awareness of Prism to cause them to change their modus operandi. We want to use Prism to try to catch them. But now that they know Prism exists and how it works, they're going to try to change the way they operate. Prism has been compromised, and that's a bad thing.

There are many levels of secrecy. Prism was never anywhere close to the most secret thing thing our intelligence services do. It's not a "black" operation with a secret budget. It was approved by Congress with bipartisan support. Nonetheless, it was illegal for Snowden to "out" it. As far as the "big deal" goes, that's also very simple. Snowden deliberately broke the law and violated the blanket secrecy agreement he signed when he began to work for the NSA. But more importantly, he went public with it. He sought the notoriety, and our sensation-hungry mass media obliged him. Snowden planned very carefully to ensure it would become a big thing and he succeeded.

There's one more possible angle to this that my conspiracy theory paranoia leads me to consider. That's the possibility that Snowden blew Prism's cover as part of an NSA operation. What if Prism wasn't working nearly as well as the NSA expected and they decided to kill it off in a way that would be useful? Perhaps setting up a phony whistleblower to betray the program would force terrorists to use other, potentially less efficient and less secure, means of communicating with each other. It would be highly disruptive to their operations if they could pull that off. It's possible, if far fetched, that Snowden's leak was planned. That Snowden is either a willing operative on a secret mission or a sacrificial lamb whose purpose was to have the revelation of Prism cause panic within terrorist circles.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 08, 2013, 12:26:27 PM
You boys need some fresh air and sunshine.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
The only one that were unaware of Prism was general public.

Speaking of naiveté in this debate... I find it quite naive to believe the bad guys were unaware of it. They probably did not know its code name, form and shape of existence, but they surely knew they are being followed, monitored, under surveillance, and ultimately located and terminated by drones and satellites. As my Soviet poster indicated, being aware that the enemy is listening is part of the game since the dawn of mankind.

Another naiveté: this high hope for high-tech solutions. The more you rely on high-tech, the more bad guys go low-tech. After all, they used box-cutters and pressure-cookers, for god's sake. Soviets were counteracting your high-tech approach, and quite successfully, for years, by decidedly low-tech. While you were trying to catch their high frequencies, they relied on a low-frequency pillow talk of their sexy agents. Or dead drops. The only Stealth fighter plane that was ever brought down was not defeated by a higher-tech weapon, but by several generations obsolete Soviet technology (that you taught it is too old and crude to take into account).

Prism is supposed to yield useful information. But you had useful intel for 9/11 too (a bright - and human - mind of an observant FBI agent, among others). You just did not "connect the dots." Or did not want to. Who's to say that Prism-generated intel is going to connect the dots any better? I presume Prism also contributed the false intel in the embarrassing blunder of arm-twisting sovereign states into closing their air space for a head-of-state plane? What's next, cavity search for presidents and prime ministers?

The only ones that were under surveillance without being aware of it (until now) are law-obiding citizens. And that is the real issue of this debate.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 01:33:52 PM
The only one that were unaware of Prism was general public.

Speaking of naiveté in this debate... I find it quite naive to believe the bad guys were unaware of it. They probably did not know its code name, form and shape of existence, but they surely knew they are being followed, monitored, under surveillance, and ultimately located and terminated by drones and satellites. As my Soviet poster indicated, being aware that the enemy is listening is part of the game since the dawn of mankind.

Yes, of course. It's knowing that they now know the specifics that's so troubling.

Quote
Another naiveté: this high hope for high-tech solutions. The more you rely on high-tech, the more bad guys go low-tech. After all, they used box-cutters and pressure-cookers, for god's sake.

True, but they planned it all using the internet and cellphones. They couldn't have carried it out without a lot of high tech help with their logistics.

Quote
Prism is supposed to yield useful information. But you had useful intel for 9/11 too (a bright - and human - mind of an observant FBI agent, among others). You just did not "connect the dots." Or did not want to. Who's to say that Prism-generated intel is going to connect the dots any better?

9/11 was one attack and we were lucky to have the intel we had. That we failed to act on that intel was an unforgivable failure. "Connecting the dots", which Prism attempts to do, is another and very useful tool. I say the more such tools we have at our disposal the merrier.

Quote
I presume Prism also contributed the false intel in the embarrassing blunder of arm-twisting sovereign states into closing their air space for a head-of-state plane? What's next, cavity search for presidents and prime ministers?

That's a fair sized assumption, but I doubt that Prism had anything to do with that. It's more likely that we were acting on bad human intel, and that it was possibly deliberate disinformation designed to embarrass us. The Russians have a long history of using disinformation and they're very good at it. I can see Putin having a good laugh over the incident.

Quote
The only ones that were under surveillance without being aware of it (until now) are law-obiding citizens. And that is the real issue of this debate.

I don't dispute that the U.S. government has the means to spy on anyone it wants to. I also think our intelligence services need better oversight to help ensure that they don't violate the privacy of law abiding citizens. However, Prism itself is not the real culprit, since it isn't spying. Prism is about ferreting out the targets to spy on. How we act on Prism's output is the real issue.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 08, 2013, 01:35:22 PM
The only ones that were under surveillance without being aware of it (until now) are law-obiding citizens. And that is the real issue of this debate.

+1
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 08, 2013, 03:53:11 PM
The reason why they disappeared was because Thatcher - may she rot in hell - butchered the industries and the left wing - and the working class - tried in vain to prevent it. It is all on record and your attempt to rewrite history is simply lies. :(

 


That's right, it's great Conservative policy to slay golden geese, close places making money.

Wake up, stamp, your dream has never worked. Anywhere. Ever. Folks died, shot by guards as they leaped barriers to get away from it.

And that's also on film, but probably false, no doubt. More Hollywood Berlin.

Sheesh.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
...Prism is about ferreting out the targets to spy on. How we act on Prism's output is the real issue.

Doug,

I do not dispute that certain form of intelligence gathering can be useful and necessary. The trouble is, it could be misused too, if not now, then in the future. One example I already posted (FBI database), and the other would be IRS cherry-picking its audit targets based on political affiliation.

I personally object to Google-style metadata collecting as well, but the worst that can happen is being bombarded by their ads. Or another example how much metadata can reveal: how Target knew a teenager is pregnant before her dad did. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/) But the worst that can happen if the government starts abusing it is frightening.

I agree that he gist of this debate is a balance between what the government does and the oversight of it. And sometimes such an oversight can not be trusted solely to a shadowy committee. Sometimes the public indeed has the right to know. And sometimes it might require someone to break the law for a public debate to happen, just like Rosa Parks did. She went from a common criminal to a civil rights hero, but only after a shift in public opinion, spurred by her breaking the law and the ensuing public debate. So, no doubt that Snowden broke the law. Whether the end result will be a shift in public opinion and a change in practice, remains to be seen, of course.

What makes me personally uneasy about Prism is the underlying logic: it is not just like looking for a needle in a haystack, it is more like burning millions of haystacks to make it easier to spot a few needles.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 08, 2013, 05:08:26 PM
Okay gang, time to fish or cut bait. How about all of you who're convinced we've imported either the methods of Hitler or Stalin to the United States please explain how you'd change the current system to provide reasonable security, recognizing that we're at war with an international conspiracy. This emphatically is NOT a law enforcement issue. It's a war issue and an intelligence issue.

I can't wait to hear your plans. If you're not awake enough to realize we're at war, please say so. That makes the solution easier because it doesn't require a solution. We simply can surrender unilaterally and nothing bad will happen.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 05:10:55 PM
That's right, it's great Conservative policy to slay golden geese, close places making money...

Rob, I understand your sarcasm, but it is not always that simple. Sometimes business owners close one place not because they are losing money, but because they can make more money somewhere else (e.g., third world). That's the "secret" behind the latest "rich getting richer" wave going on right now, while the majorities of Western populations are experiencing the worst decline since the Great Depression. I do not know enough about the Thatcher England to discern which was which, it is quite possible that it was simply an inevitable obsolescence of old industries. But I do know that in the past your boys used to burn crops (to preserve higher market prices), while millions were dying of hunger nearby.

Quote
Wake up, stamp, your dream has never worked. Anywhere. Ever. Folks died, shot by guards as they leaped barriers to get away from it.

Maybe because they were lured by another dream, the American dream, that turned out to be a mirage even for the majority of Americans these days? There's been a lot of disappointment among former East Germans, once the initial enthusiasm waned and the harsh reality started to sink in.

Far be it from me to defend the plausibility of Stamper's dream, but the opposite ain't that simple as you portray it to be either.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 08, 2013, 05:16:52 PM
Okay gang, time to fish or cut bait. How about all of you who're convinced we've imported either the methods of Hitler or Stalin

Hitler or Stalin ? those methods were invented way before 'em... they were just grateful pupils of the greatest "democracies"  ;D ... from concentration camps to you name it.

www.nytimes.com/2013/07/06/opinion/lincolns-surveillance-state.html

“The Secretary of War has my authority to exercise his discretion in the matter within mentioned.”

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 05:41:55 PM
...If you're not awake enough to realize we're at war, please say so...

Well, I need a coffee, so...

But seriously, Russ, isn't the reliance on endless, perpetual war the gist of Orwell's 1984?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 08, 2013, 06:11:17 PM
Golly, nobody seems to have a plan. Everybody seems to want to sidestep the issue. The point is that when you're actually faced with having to deal with something like this, things get a lot more complicated than when you haven't any responsibility. Then you can bash what the people with the responsibility are doing without any consequences.

Come on, tell me your plan.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 06:24:23 PM
I do not dispute that certain form of intelligence gathering can be useful and necessary. The trouble is, it could be misused too, if not now, then in the future. One example I already posted (FBI database), and the other would be IRS cherry-picking its audit targets based on political affiliation.

It isn't just some forms--any form of intelligence gathering can be abused.

Quote
I personally object to Google-style metadata collecting as well, but the worst that can happen is being bombarded by their ads. Or another example how much metadata can reveal: how Target knew a teenager is pregnant before her dad did. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/) But the worst that can happen if the government starts abusing it is frightening.

This is a public policy discussion that needs to happen. There are many countries that are a lot more strict than the U.S. is about the kinds of user data a company like Google can collect. I personally don't have a problem with Google collecting metadata on me, because I accept the tradeoff between Google being able to provide services for me that depend on them collecting metadata and their need to sell the data to advertisers. No company can run on good intentions alone.

Quote
I agree that he gist of this debate is a balance between what the government does and the oversight of it. And sometimes such an oversight can not be trusted solely to a shadowy committee. Sometimes the public indeed has the right to know. And sometimes it might require someone to break the law for a public debate to happen, just like Rosa Parks did. She went from a common criminal to a civil rights hero, but only after a shift in public opinion, spurred by her breaking the law and the ensuing public debate. So, no doubt that Snowden broke the law. Whether the end result will be a shift in public opinion and a change in practice, remains to be seen, of course.

I don't think we're far apart on that issue. I would argue that in Snowden's case, in particular, he was wrong to disclose Prism's existence and methodology. Prism helps us to weed out terrorists and he did my country a disservice by compromising it. The real issue, as I see it, is not programs like Prism, but rather how we handle the results that those programs provide us with. I personally don't have a problem with the NSA gathering what amounts to the same information that appears on my phone bill. That's no more egregious than Google knowing what websites I've visited. How that data is used, however, is very important and I agree that in this era of digital eavesdropping oversight becomes even more important. I also agree that such oversight is currently far too weak, amounting to little more than a rubber stamp on what the NSA and CIA ask for.

Quote
What makes me personally uneasy about Prism is the underlying logic: it is not just like looking for a needle in a haystack, it is more like burning millions of haystacks to make it easier to spot a few needles.

I don't agree with that analogy. I think it overstates the issue. Prism isn't destroying what it searches through. A better analogy would be the SETI project, which uses supercomputers to sift through vast quantities of intergalactic noise looking for recognizable patterns.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 06:35:30 PM
Tell you what. Since you're so ok with drag-net style collection gathering, why don't you volunteer to send the police the GPS coordinates of where you start and end every car journey you make?

That's just metadata that shouldn't be seen as spying, right?

No, wrong. That's an order of magnitude beyond what Prism does. Prism isn't following you. It's looking at lists of international phone calls made to and from the U.S. It gives the government far less information about you than, say, your credit and debit card records do. Or your medical records. Or your ISP traffic records. Or your email. The NSA has neither the means nor the interest to follow everyone. That would be a massive waste of resources. They want to be able to detect the few who should be followed. That's what Prism was designed to help with.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 06:44:08 PM
No, wrong. That's an order of magnitude beyond what Prism does. Prism isn't following you. It's looking at lists of international phone calls made to and from the U.S. It gives the government far less information about you than, say, your credit and debit card records do. Or your medical records. Or your ISP traffic records. Or your email. All they need to do to get those is make a phone call to a judge and get a warrant. It only takes a few minutes.

But, but, Doug, how do you know what Prism does or doesn't!? Google, Microsoft, etc., servers are not used for phone calls, yet the government gained access to them. There is a lot of info on them, including your email, ISP records, passwords (which then lead to your medical and financial records), and much, much more.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 08, 2013, 07:04:44 PM
truth?
Why in the world,
would any of you, much less the ones that have long intimate knowledge of American politics,
keep letting the same bunch of liars conspire to build a world fraught with danger beyond compare?
You all already almost annihilated the human race with nuclear weapons,
lied about Iraq and Saddam,
lied about Bin Laden and his real power base,
lied about almost everything,
and now we're supposed to trust you to know what's best?
Forget it.
I for one ain't biting.
Dismantling the bad set up one piece at a time.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 07:26:28 PM
But, but, Doug, how do you know what Prism does or doesn't!? Google, Microsoft, etc., servers are not used for phone calls, yet the government gained access to them. There is a lot of info on them, including your email, ISP records, passwords (which then lead to your medical and financial records), and much, much more.

Yes, those servers do contain more than just metadata about communications. I'm just going on what Snowden told us about Prism. I have no idea if Prism is really limited to what Snowden said it does. Maybe yes, maybe no. I doubt that Snowden was privy to everything. Or it could be that those servers were accessed because they contained accounts of people identified by Prism rather than being scanned by Prism itself. In any case we know that the NSA has tools in addition to Prism that allow them to spy on whoever they would target with Prism, so the distinction is a little academic. I have no doubt that they can get whatever they want on anyone they want whenever they want it. The NSA is a spy agency, after all. So to get back to your point, we either need better oversight for the NSA and CIA so we can be reasonably assured that they're only going after bad guys, or we need to take away their ability to spy on people altogether. I vote for the former.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 08, 2013, 09:04:39 PM
No, wrong. That's an order of magnitude beyond what Prism does. Prism isn't following you. It's looking at lists of international phone calls made to and from the U.S. It gives the government far less information about you than, say, your credit and debit card records do. Or your medical records. Or your ISP traffic records. Or your email. The NSA has neither the means nor the interest to follow everyone. That would be a massive waste of resources. They want to be able to detect the few who should be followed. That's what Prism was designed to help with.

No, it is exactly what PRISM does when put in the context of cars. Arguing that it is less information about a person than something else is beside the point. The point is that it is the collection of information through the use of drag-net policing of the entire populace.

As for the NSA's capability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
- and that's just one facility.

If it is indeed only a "few" that they need to track then they're spending an awful lot of money building very large data centres to put IT equipment in.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and deny what's going on, feel free...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 08, 2013, 10:25:12 PM
No, it is exactly what PRISM does when put in the context of cars. Arguing that it is less information about a person than something else is beside the point. The point is that it is the collection of information through the use of drag-net policing of the entire populace.

As for the NSA's capability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
- and that's just one facility.

If it is indeed only a "few" that they need to track then they're spending an awful lot of money building very large data centres to put IT equipment in.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and deny what's going on, feel free...

Please enlighten us as to how a list of international phone calls amounts to "drag-net policing of the entire populace".
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 09, 2013, 02:25:53 AM
Please enlighten us as to how a list of international phone calls amounts to "drag-net policing of the entire populace".

Because none of the information is gained with a specific reason or target in mind and nor is the a specific target as there would be with a wiretap request.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 09, 2013, 04:59:43 AM
Rob, I understand your sarcasm, but it is not always that simple. Sometimes business owners close one place not because they are losing money, but because they can make more money somewhere else (e.g., third world). That's the "secret" behind the latest "rich getting richer" wave going on right now, while the majorities of Western populations are experiencing the worst decline since the Great Depression. I do not know enough about the Thatcher England to discern which was which, it is quite possible that it was simply an inevitable obsolescence of old industries. But I do know that in the past your boys used to burn crops (to preserve higher market prices), while millions were dying of hunger nearby.

Far be it from me to defend the plausibility of Stamper's dream, but the opposite ain't that simple as you portray it to be either.

Fair enough, Slobodan, location moves do happen because of economically driven factors too.

In the case of stamper’s bête noire, Maggie T, most of Scotland’s shipyards were closed because they had simply become redundant. They were already dead on their feet, and only the ‘workers’ didn’t seem to realise that. Private ownership and its investment potential was ever hindered by union militancy (I ran the gauntlet of that militancy, as an affected apprentice, during the infamous apprentices’ strike of 1959 - or was it early 1960?) and huge amounts of basic ignorance and impoverished education provided fertile and unquestioning ground for the development of communist ideology. And I use the term intentionally. Not socialist, communist. In today’s papers, Miliband, the union-sponsored leader of the UK’s Labour opposition party of the day, has been publicly embarrassed by union manipulation of local political candidate selections up in Scotland. So much so that he has announced that the party is reconsidering its position vis-à-vis its union association, the very association that provides most of its war chest, and ruins its possible appeal to non-union people and potential voters.

But anyway, back to the yards. Shipbuilding peaked as costs in Britain rose and yards in France, Germany and then the Far East could manage to build bigger cheaper. Good, more reasoned labour relations in some of those lands meant that deliveries could be maintained without financially ruinous penalty clauses being implemented. That, coupled with the huge rise in the change from boat to air travel, meant that the day of the boat in Britain was up.

(Regarding the coal mines: same story there. It was dirty, labour intensive, relatively expensive and logistically a friggin’ nightmare, as anyone who remembers buying a ton of coal and storing it somewhere, setting and cleaning fireplaces every day will know. Oil, electricity and gas were the modern answers to the heating and energy problems. The country took a shower and cleaned up.)

So, when the yards could no longer be kept open with private money, the ones that didn’t vanish found themselves effectively nationalised, the huge political fake being that the industry no longer remained a private money sink but a public one. So that was okay, then. The fake jobs continued apace. Until the money ran out.

Unfortunately, just as with film and digital, with my own business in bespoke calendar production, times change and the reasons why some businesses are able to thrive simply evaporate.  Sure I don’t like it either, but reality forces me to accept reality. Blaming other people or politics (other than PC!) for my problems serves no purpose and, ultimately, just gets in the way of seeing new paths forward, for which I can personally vouch too.  

The indigenous car industry in Britain is so well documented, both its rise and its fall, that it serves no purpose re-reporting it here! All you need do for a start is check out Red Robbo!

But hell, what’s the point? The blind will never see and the wilfully so observe even less than the naturally afflicted.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 09, 2013, 05:56:58 AM
Well, I need a coffee, so...

But seriously, Russ, isn't the reliance on endless, perpetual war the gist of Orwell's 1984?


Is it no less the reality?

War doesn't have to draw blood to be war. And as someone once said: countries don't have friends, they have interests.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on July 09, 2013, 08:33:17 AM
War doesn't have to draw blood to be war.

Are you sure?

"War should be understood as an actual, intentional and widespread armed conflict between political communities" (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/)

the Definition of Aggression (http://untreaty.un.org/cod/avl/ha/da/da.html)
Quote
Invasion of a State by the armed forces of another State, with or without occupation of the territory, heads the list of aggressive acts set out in article 3.
[...]
nothing in the Definition prejudiced the authority of a State to exercise its rights, compatibly with the Charter, within its national jurisdiction (A/9890, para. 10). Paragraph (g), relating to irregular bands or mercenaries going from one State into another, constituted one of the major difficulties in reaching consensus on the Definition. Agreement was finally reached by narrowing earlier proposals to limit the text to “sending” organized groups, rather than organising and supporting them.

Without some commonly accepted definitions someone might just as well unilaterally declare 'war' on people with red hair, or those not wearing Hawaiian print shirts, or other terrorists.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 09, 2013, 11:35:34 AM

Without some commonly accepted definitions someone might just as well unilaterally declare 'war' on people with red hair, or those not wearing Hawaiian print shirts, or other terrorists.


Or declare "war" on drugs or poverty!  :)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 09, 2013, 11:52:46 AM
Because none of the information is gained with a specific reason or target in mind and nor is the a specific target as there would be with a wiretap request.

Well, that's because it's looking for possible targets by searching through international phone call records.

So let me ask you a question. What would you propose as an alternative to Prism for ferreting out terrorist communications?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 09, 2013, 12:00:15 PM
... What would you propose as an alternative to Prism for ferreting out terrorist communications?

I know what. But can't tell you... the terrorists would find out ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 09, 2013, 12:10:30 PM
Oil, electricity and gas were the modern answers to the heating and energy problems.

"Coal produced 42.8 per cent of the UK's electricity in 2012..." (http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/02/preliminary-uk-energy-stats-show-big-jump-in-coal-fired-electricity)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 09, 2013, 01:00:38 PM
Google, Microsoft, etc., servers are not used for phone calls, yet the government gained access to them.
M$ owns Skype, Skype is used for "phone" calls, so logically M$ servers are worth attention... and Google Voice (about Google)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 09, 2013, 02:06:29 PM
"Coal produced 42.8 per cent of the UK's electricity in 2012..." (http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/02/preliminary-uk-energy-stats-show-big-jump-in-coal-fired-electricity)


But Mrs T. was active in the 80s.

Time and hindsight are huge advantages, even for back-pocket socialists and crypto-reds!

Funny how the mines have mostly gone, though, and only some strange folks playing troglodyte in the New Forest still approach it with zest. The problem as I see it is this: you can approach one of those convenient mines with an outside, ground-level tunnel entrance, armed with nothing more than a shovel, a pick, a canary, a candle, a mule and a carrot. As a single miner, you make a profit from the mineral you extract because you don’t have to pay the canary and the mule squat.

Now, if you introduce an actual lift-shaft, your logistical problems magnify and multiply, almost as rapidly as your costs and other difficulties, the principal one of those being the fact that the mule couldn’t give a damn about the carrot when faced with a cage on a string. Mules may be half-breeds, but they ain’t dumb! Ask any mule. So, importation makes sense, especially when the dust remains somewhere else, as does the mule shit, though I expect the British farmers might be persuaded to use that to fertilize and disinfect, instead of the toxic, bee-killing stuff that they do use. However, should the mine be in Ireland, you may be in luck: they have horses there that regularly get taken into high-rise apartments, so perhaps substituting horses for mules… worth a shot. Well, not literally I hasten to add, we’ve had enough of those!

There are so many options, so many facts, so many conflicting sources of super information…

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 09, 2013, 04:20:38 PM
I know what. But can't tell you... the terrorists would find out ;D

Great one, Slobodan.  ;D  ;D Demonstrates how serious this whole discussion really is.

If you can't make photographs, bitch about something you know nothing about. It's fun.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 09, 2013, 05:18:22 PM
"Coal produced 42.8 per cent of the UK's electricity in 2012..." (http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/02/preliminary-uk-energy-stats-show-big-jump-in-coal-fired-electricity)
But Mrs T. was active in the 80s.

And the UK's electricity was also generated from coal in the '70s '80s '90s '00s - even at the peak of North Sea oil production.

And domestic coal mines which were known to be profitable at the time were shuttered.

No hindsight required.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 09, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
Great one, Slobodan.  ;D  ;D Demonstrates how serious this whole discussion really is.

If you can't make photographs, bitch about something you know nothing about. It's fun.

Are we now getting nasty and personal, Russ!? My photographic skills have nothing to do with the debate, or may not be to everyone's liking, but I thought that I am at least a notch above "can't make photographs," no?

As for "you know nothing about"... not sure about the "nothing" part, though. I spent seven years working for the State Department, as a local employee in their embassy in my hometown, so at least I had a close view on their intel gathering and secrecy protocols. Not direct involvement, granted, but first-row view, perhaps enough for a notch above "nothing," no?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 09, 2013, 06:30:46 PM
I spent seven years working for the State Department, as a local employee in their embassy in my hometown, so at least I had a close view on their intel gathering and secrecy protocols.

now I am all ears... plz continue...

(http://www.chicagoconnect.org/sites/default/files/amerikanskaya_kniga.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 09, 2013, 06:36:25 PM
Your alter ego, Vlad? ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on July 09, 2013, 07:02:14 PM
But Mrs T. was active in the 80s.

And the UK's electricity was also generated from coal in the '70s '80s '90s '00s - even at the peak of North Sea oil production.

Indeed, although mostly cheaper imported coal from Australia.

Quote
And domestic coal mines which were known to be profitable at the time were shuttered.

Interesting. Any sources for that?

All I could find was that: "In early 1984, the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher announced plans to close 20 uneconomic coal pits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining_in_the_United_Kingdom) which led to the year-long miners' strike which ended in March 1985 with the miners defeated."

But then we all know how reliable some sources of information are ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 09, 2013, 08:23:09 PM
Google is your friend, not Wikipedia ;-)

October 1992, Coal mines named for closure were 'profitable' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/coal-mines-named-for-closure-were-profitable-1559633.html)

April 2013, The long, slow death of the UK coal industry (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/apr/11/slow-death-coal-industry)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 09, 2013, 08:27:50 PM
Are we now getting nasty and personal, Russ!?

No, Slobodan. That comment was intended for the whole group on this thread, and I apologize because I can see why you could take it personally. I see endless comments by people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, but that's pretty normal when something like this comes up.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 09, 2013, 11:13:24 PM
No, Slobodan. That comment was intended for the whole group on this thread, and I apologize because I can see why you could take it personally. I see endless comments by people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, but that's pretty normal when something like this comes up.

The thing is that most of us here in this thread somehow feel that you already sent our names to your friends who have diligently put them on a black list RSL.

That's the kind of world your paranoia has us living in.

Considering your photographic skills, I am sure you understand that whether you actually did it or not is irrelevant.  ;D

On your question, since all this results from 911 alone, I would first need clear proof that the reality of the threat has been investigated with the level of depth required and that pre-Prism intelligence gathering wasn't already sufficient. Whatever happened on 911, there is beyond possible doubt that it was not investigated independently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_9/11_Commission

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: tom b on July 09, 2013, 11:33:27 PM
NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things' – 2 videos.

Video 1 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video)

Video 2 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jul/08/edward-snowden-video-interview)

Cheers,
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on July 10, 2013, 03:12:52 AM
Google is your friend, not Wikipedia ;-)

Isn't Google one of those supplying info to Prism?

Quote
October 1992, Coal mines named for closure were 'profitable' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/coal-mines-named-for-closure-were-profitable-1559633.html)

From that article about more current mining operations, not those in 1984 !:
"FIVE OF the 10 pits under threat of imminent closure were sufficiently profitable to be privatised, according to British Coal's own advisers".
 and
"British Coal calculates that the 10 pits lost pounds 31m last year, but has refused to give pit-by-pit figures."

Also well known is that the mines were so heavily subsidized by Government (= taxpayers), that it was cheaper to put the miners on welfare than to prolong the demise of that industry (in part caused by demands of the unions).

Quote
April 2013, The long, slow death of the UK coal industry (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/apr/11/slow-death-coal-industry)

The reference in that link to once upon a time "profitable pits" comes from Chris Kitchen, general secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM). I'm not clear on which ones he meant, those in 1984 or the few remaining ones.

No, I'm not convinced by your info that they were profitable at the time the decision was taken to close them down. Besides, this is not really on topic for this thread, but feel free to spread some more disinformation.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 10, 2013, 04:07:38 AM
From that article about more current mining operations, not those in 1984 !

1992 isn't current anymore.


Also well known is that the mines were so heavily subsidized by Government (= taxpayers), that it was cheaper to put the miners on welfare than to prolong the demise of that industry (in part caused by demands of the unions).

As you said: "Any sources for that?"


The reference in that link to once upon a time "profitable pits" ...

I'm surprised there was any reference in that 2013 article to "profitable pits".

Not having an axe to grind, to me, it seemed like a reasonable summary of the current situation -- it even states that the bulk of coal for electricity generation is now imported.


Besides, this is not really on topic for this thread...

Take that up with Rob C.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 10, 2013, 04:10:53 AM
Isn't Google one of those supplying info to Prism?
 
Also well known is that the mines were so heavily subsidized by Government (= taxpayers), that it was cheaper to put the miners on welfare than to prolong the demise of that industry (in part caused by demands of the unions).

The reference in that link to once upon a time "profitable pits" comes from Chris Kitchen, general secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM). I'm not clear on which ones he meant, those in 1984 or the few remaining ones.

No, I'm not convinced by your info that they were profitable at the time the decision was taken to close them down. Besides, this is not really on topic for this thread, but feel free to spread some more disinformation.

Cheers,
Bart


Bart, after a while you realise that these discussions are pointless. Some folks are born with blinkers on and spend their lives adding more layers to the screen if only to perpetuate the fables they learned on their parents’ knees.

That any benign government would imagine the slightest advantage to it in reducing employment, putting more strain on an already stretched economy, fomenting more unrest than already exists at any given time, is totally absurd – there isn’t a single thing to be gained, but a huge amount to be lost: power.

That humanity is ever divided between the motivators and the followers is also an inescapable fact. Even twins will grow up and follow different paths, have different abilities and achieve different levels of success in life.

Some like to hide behind excuses about birth circumstances etc, as if personal input meant nothing. It’s so easy to do zilch and blame the world at large for one’s own inactivity, commercial sloth and lack of progression up the ladder; some deny the ladder exists.

Education is often the whipping boy. I suppose a class full of kids who want nothing more than to chat on their cell ‘phones is the teacher’s fault; that many don’t do any work but prefer to disrupt the education of their mates is also the teacher’s fault; that they will turn round and tell that teacher that education’s a waste of time because their pal is working as a plumber or basic electrician and making many thousands a year is also the teacher’s fault.

It’s always another person’s fault. That the individual may be lazy and pretty much useless even to him/herself must never be imagined nor, heaven forbid, mentioned.

It’s the age in which we live; we have bred our own holy cows.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 10, 2013, 04:35:29 AM

As you said: "Any sources for that?"


Take that up with Rob C.



Isaac, I am retired and have not much to do with time other than keep myself and the property relatively clean, decide between wearing the bandana or the baseball cap, wander out for lunch to keep the tissues together, snap a few snaps, view the occasional website, avoid splitting the odd infinitive, dream a very few remaining dreams and then hope, at best, to do it all over again the next day. And that takes up most of my waking hours. Oh - and I sometimes wash the car, which seems to grow inexplicably larger (and mostly higher) every time I do that.

Had I any employment, were I still young, I wouldn't have opportunity to be writing here very much.

How do you make time for all of your vigorous research into all these exciting threads? Do you have staff?

Rob C

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 10, 2013, 04:44:21 AM
No, Slobodan. That comment was intended for the whole group on this thread, and I apologize because I can see why you could take it personally. I see endless comments by people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, but that's pretty normal when something like this comes up.

Is Rob included in the group? You did say the whole group. Disparaging people who don't agree with you means it is probably pointless you being a member of any internet forum.  :(
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: tom b on July 10, 2013, 08:44:21 AM
Just recently I watched a documentary on Iran and I heard Barack Obama admit something that I thought no American president would ever admit. It should have made headlines around the world. Without doing a Google search does anyone know what he said?

Cheers,
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 10, 2013, 08:48:13 AM
Just recently I watched a documentary on Iran and I heard Barack Obama admit something that I thought no American president would ever admit. It should have made headlines around the world. Without doing a Google search does anyone know what he said?

"Come on now! No more uprisings! You people have it great over there!"
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: PeterAit on July 10, 2013, 08:51:16 AM
People participating in this thread would do well to read Daniel Ellserg's (of Pentagon Papers fame) column in the Washington Post. It was in our local paper today so it was probably in the Post a couple of days ago.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 10, 2013, 09:24:20 AM
People participating in this thread would do well to read Daniel Ellserg's (of Pentagon Papers fame) column in the Washington Post. It was in our local paper today so it was probably in the Post a couple of days ago.

Daniel Ellsberg: Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 10, 2013, 10:10:19 AM
Is Rob included in the group? You did say the whole group. Disparaging people who don't agree with you means it is probably pointless you being a member of any internet forum.  :(


I forget; was it Louis B. Mayer or one of the Marx brothers (down, stamper, not that family) who exclaimed: "Include me out!"?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 10, 2013, 10:27:12 AM
Just recently I watched a documentary on Iran and I heard Barack Obama admit something that I thought no American president would ever admit. It should have made headlines around the world. Without doing a Google search does anyone know what he said?

Cheers,


Yes, somebody just told me at lunch today - he, the incumbent to whom you refer, was reminiscing about a predecessor:

"A recent president sidled up to an intern and asked her if she’d like to see his clock.

Ooh yes, she said, I really, really would!

So, pressy and intern walked into the almost-circular office where pressy proceeded to unzip (obviously, not a Levi 501 man), whereupon the intern gasped: ooh, Mr pressy, that’s not a clock!

Oh yes it is, replied Mr pressy, put two hands and a face on it, and there you are!"

How quickly the wire services spread the day's news.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 10, 2013, 10:59:52 AM
Is Rob included in the group? You did say the whole group. Disparaging people who don't agree with you means it is probably pointless you being a member of any internet forum.  :(

Easy Stamper, those of who were included know who you are. And, of course, everybody has a right to his opinion, even if he knows absolutely nothing about the subject upon which he's opining. As I pointed out, knowing nothing about the subject makes having an opinion a lot more fun.  ::)

Incidentally, I love the definition of "opining" in my WordWeb: "Express one's opinion openly and without fear or hesitation." Unfortunately the definition didn't add "or knowledge"

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 10, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Quote Russ


Easy Stamper, those of who were included know who you are.

Unquote.

I assume you meant.


Easy Stamper, those of who were included know who THEY are.

Otherwise the sentence doesn't make sense imo.

Quote Slobodan & Russ.

Are we now getting nasty and personal, Russ!?

No, Slobodan. That comment was intended for the whole group on this thread, and I apologize because I can see why you could take it personally. I see endless comments by people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, but that's pretty normal when something like this comes up.

Unquote


Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 10, 2013, 03:16:09 PM
As you said: "Any sources for that?"

Take that up with Rob C.
...
How do you make time for all of your vigorous research into all these exciting threads? Do you have staff?

Tut-tut.

Your selective quotation makes it seems as-if I was saying Bart should take up the issue of source material with you - when in fact I said Bart should take up the issue of not really on topic with you --

Besides, this is not really on topic for this thread...

Take that up with Rob C.


Incidentally the answer to your question is that it doesn't take me very long at all.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 10, 2013, 03:40:40 PM
So, You Want to Hide from the NSA? Your Guide to the Nearly Impossible (http://news.yahoo.com/want-hide-nsa-guide-nearly-impossible-150644605.html)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 10, 2013, 05:53:04 PM
...
How do you make time for all of your vigorous research into all these exciting threads? Do you have staff?

Tut-tut.

Your selective quotation makes it seems as-if I was saying Bart should take up the issue of source material with you - when in fact I said Bart should take up the issue of not really on topic with you --

Take that up with Rob C.


Incidentally the answer to your question is that it doesn't take me very long at all.



Ooops! What I was concerned about was your evidence-questing which strikes me as either very time/labour consuming or, alternatively, and as you imply, it comes naturally to you from the vast data already in place.

Either way -congratulations!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: tom b on July 10, 2013, 06:03:25 PM
"Just recently I watched a documentary on Iran and I heard Barack Obama admit something that I thought no American president would ever admit. It should have made headlines around the world. Without doing a Google search does anyone know what he said?"

The answer is…

Obama has admitted that the U.S. was involved in the Iranian coup in 1953 which ousted the democratically elected government (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=obama+admits+iran+coup&oq=obama+admits+iran+coup&aqs=chrome.0.57j0j62l3.14144j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8).

We all know about the axis of evil, but do you know about SAVAK (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=cia+torture+iran&oq=cia+torture+iran&aqs=chrome.0.57j62l3.10623j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#gs_rn=17&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=LFUSlqRPHCMIrRZMKE9JLw&pq=cia%20torture%20iran&cp=5&gs_id=k&xhr=t&q=SAVAK&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=SAVAK&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.aGc&fp=4700427ed485b490&biw=998&bih=1188) which was formed under the guidance of the CIA.

I was in Tehran six months before the Shah fell. There was an army soldier on every street corner in centre of the city. People walked up to us and started conversations without trying to sell us anything which is quite unusual in Asia. Two conversations have remained with me.

The first one I was told that 100 000 people had been killed by the Shah's troops in Mashhad. I must admit I dismissed it but it stuck with me.

The second conversation was after I had witnessed a large number of tanks doing war games to the south of Tehran. I mentioned it in a conversation and was told that they had killed 8000 people.

It was quite disturbing that complete strangers would come up and talk about massacres in a casual conversation.

I didn't think that the Shah would be deposed and was amazed when I read about his demise six months later when I was in Israel.

I don't know if Snowden is a hero or a criminal. I do know that we have to know what our governments are doing if we are to know what is happening out there.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 11, 2013, 01:14:11 AM
I do know that we have to know what our governments are doing if we are to know what is happening out there.

And that is exactly what the governments do not want.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 11, 2013, 04:04:00 AM

I forget; was it Louis B. Mayer or one of the Marx brothers (down, stamper, not that family) who exclaimed: "Include me out!"?

;-)

Rob C

Sam Goldwyn, I think.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 11, 2013, 04:19:41 AM
Sam Goldwyn, I think.

Jeremy


Probably was - I always felt more inclined to learn about the actresses than the moguls!

However, I think it was Mr Marx of brotherly fame who inspired me to eschew the joining of clubs.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 11, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
here is why this matters-
find criminal negligence, go after those responsible, then get sued for investigating and proving the liability.
f'd up world
they're trying to turn it upside down from what's right, to what's efficacious
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/10/2275611/federal-judge-authorizes-chevrons-sweeping-subpoena-of-activists-internet-data/?mobile=nc
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ray on July 11, 2013, 11:36:26 PM
Isn't it just awful when one gets a glimpse of the sorts of things that go on behind the scenes.

Perhaps it's now time in this thread for a dose of optimism. There is a case to be made that violence, murder, skulduggery, rape, torture, criminal behaviour and death due to wars, is on the decline and is now far less, as a percentage of population, than it has ever been in the history of mankind.

The TED talk linked below provides an interesting perspective.

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Gulag on July 12, 2013, 01:38:58 AM
I don't really believe the narrative that has been told by both Mr. Snowden and MSM.  I hate to sound cynical but there is probably more to it behind the scene. What really matters is that a numerous national surveys have successfully confirmed that a great majority of American consumers don't mind at all. Basically, that's the chief purpose of Mr. Snowden's show. After all,  "The business of America is business," and what is good for business is good for America. Mussolini succinctly pointed out nearly 100 years ago,  “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. Fascism is a religion. The twentieth century will be known in history as the century of Fascism.  Believe, Obey, Fight." Now let's get back to work, consume and pay taxes.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 12, 2013, 04:18:39 AM
I don't really believe the narrative that has been told by both Mr. Snowden and MSM.  I hate to sound cynical but there is probably more to it behind the scene. What really matters is that a numerous national surveys have successfully confirmed that a great majority of American consumers don't mind at all. Basically, that's the chief purpose of Mr. Snowden's show. After all,  "The business of America is business," and what is good for business is good for America. Mussolini succinctly pointed out nearly 100 years ago,  “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. Fascism is a religion. The twentieth century will be known in history as the century of Fascism.  Believe, Obey, Fight." Now let's get back to work, consume and pay taxes.



Exactly what many of us would dearly love to be able do!

My best, most enjoyed years were the ones spent working. Why people think of work as a negative is beyond me: all you need do to transform your life is understand yourself and follow your instincts and heart. With the energy, optimism and strength of youth you can, and should, do it if only for yourself and those who will live beside you.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 12, 2013, 07:17:00 AM
I don't really believe the narrative that has been told by both Mr. Snowden and MSM.  I hate to sound cynical but there is probably more to it behind the scene. What really matters is that a numerous national surveys have successfully confirmed that a great majority of American consumers don't mind at all. Basically, that's the chief purpose of Mr. Snowden's show. After all,  "The business of America is business," and what is good for business is good for America.

That's because they get all the circuses (cable TV) and bread (fast food) that they want already:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

I suspect that the very same great majority of American consumers that don't mind also don't fully understand the dangers of what's going on and where it leads. None of the people that fully understand what Snowden has revealed and what it means like where it ends. Except those that benefit from it.

Strange as it may seem, but Europeans fully understand the dangers of what is going on in the USA because they've already been through it (from Hitler through until the wall came down.)

It won't be until Americans suffer from this that they demand change. Question is whether or not they're full from bread/circuses and will notice. Or in other words, things have to get worse, possibly much worse, in the USA (in terms of lost liberties/freedoms/rights) before anything stands a chance of getting better. Will it happen? Time will tell.

Quote
Mussolini succinctly pointed out nearly 100 years ago,  “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. Fascism is a religion. The twentieth century will be known in history as the century of Fascism.  Believe, Obey, Fight." Now let's get back to work, consume and pay taxes.

You sound like our new overlord that wants submissive subjects that make you rich and don't ask any bothersome questions.

Problem is that the USA was founded as a Democratic state, not a Fascist state.

And I'm pretty sure that if you went to the public and asked them to vote for one or the other that most would choose Democracy.

I think that you've got the wrong idea about centuries as the 20th century has already concluded (it did so at the end of year 2000 - we're now in the 21st century), unless you mean that democracy has been dead in the USA for the last 13 years already?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 12, 2013, 07:22:20 AM
Exactly what many of us would dearly love to be able do!

My best, most enjoyed years were the ones spent working.

And I suppose you never found yourself in a situation similar to Snowden did where what you were seeing at work was morally wrong and not at all in accordance with American values or the constitution, did you?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 12, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Problem is that the USA was founded as a Democratic state, not a Fascist state.

And I'm pretty sure that if you went to the public and asked them to vote for one or the other that most would choose Democracy.

At least one person seems to think that the right to vote doesn't have that much impact on the actual governance of the country.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html

Heck, he is probably wrong, but it wouldn't hurt to follow his recommendations, would it?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 12, 2013, 08:56:32 AM
I'm not talking about working, agreements, or political parties.
In the 80's there was this guy,  Ronald Reagan, he was the somewhat symbol of a country that had at that point suffered several hard realities, vietnam, the iran thing, a black eye in central america,
so what happens is one of this Reagan guy's minions,
Ollie North,
well he takes the blame for the highly illegal, and harmful sale of weapons to our enemy,
Iran.
So by that time the money stolen and ill gotten by trading with the enemy was diverted to this little band of freedom fighters in Nicaragua,
The Contras.
Remember them?
OK so the contras go on to kill and maim children, as well as plant landmines in their own country,
and
SMUGGLE DOPE INTO THE USA.
It's all been proven beyond reasonable doubt, and now we're supposed to jail whistleblowers and watchdog groups.
Remember when being a "card carrying liberal" was real bad?
You people just don't get it.
People die because of the policies we allow to stand.
If you do understand that people die because of these policies,
you then are a murderer's accomplice,
and there ain't no god that likes that
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 12, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
After all,  "The business of America is business," and what is good for business is good for America.
nowadays it is what good for a class of "hired for stock options" managers running big business'
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 12, 2013, 12:20:02 PM
The NSA's surveillance is unconstitutional. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578593591276402574.html)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 12, 2013, 01:28:13 PM
The NSA's surveillance is unconstitutional. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578593591276402574.html)

duh.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 12, 2013, 01:32:19 PM
Yeah, I was going to find this article from this morning's WSJ and post a link to it. Thanks, Dreed. In a way it's an unfortunate article because Randy's dead wrong about the constitutionality of what the NSA's doing when it analyzes communications traffic. On the other hand, he's dead right about the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. That's a new, Obama-created board of busybodies that actually looks at the content of citizens' financial transactions. It's unconstitutional on the face of it, but since Obama created it the "media," other than the WSJ, have ignored it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Gulag on July 12, 2013, 01:55:44 PM
That's because they get all the circuses (cable TV) and bread (fast food) that they want already:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

I suspect that the very same great majority of American consumers that don't mind also don't fully understand the dangers of what's going on and where it leads. None of the people that fully understand what Snowden has revealed and what it means like where it ends. Except those that benefit from it.

Strange as it may seem, but Europeans fully understand the dangers of what is going on in the USA because they've already been through it (from Hitler through until the wall came down.)

It won't be until Americans suffer from this that they demand change. Question is whether or not they're full from bread/circuses and will notice. Or in other words, things have to get worse, possibly much worse, in the USA (in terms of lost liberties/freedoms/rights) before anything stands a chance of getting better. Will it happen? Time will tell.

You sound like our new overlord that wants submissive subjects that make you rich and don't ask any bothersome questions.

Problem is that the USA was founded as a Democratic state, not a Fascist state.

And I'm pretty sure that if you went to the public and asked them to vote for one or the other that most would choose Democracy.

I think that you've got the wrong idea about centuries as the 20th century has already concluded (it did so at the end of year 2000 - we're now in the 21st century), unless you mean that democracy has been dead in the USA for the last 13 years already?

Do you really believe somehow magically "people" will be able to wake up and say no to EBT cards so to speak? Should I remind you that Ben Franklin famously foresaw "when the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic"? Do you really believe this is a democracy in its classical sense as defined by the Ancient Athenians?  Inverted Totalitarianism is what Sheldon Wolin, one of America's leading political philosophers, said we currently live in. Perhaps you want to read that book Inverted Totalitarianism to dust off your indoctrination first? If you ask me, I'd say it has been on a slow train to the total Fascism since the days of the New Deal.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 12, 2013, 04:30:42 PM
If you ask me, I'd say it has been on a slow train to the total Fascism since the days of the New Deal.

Here, here.

Repealing the Current Tax Payment Act of 1943 would be a good start to righting the sinking ship.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 13, 2013, 12:41:39 AM
Yeah, I was going to find this article from this morning's WSJ and post a link to it. Thanks, Dreed. In a way it's an unfortunate article because Randy's dead wrong about the constitutionality of what the NSA's doing when it analyzes communications traffic.

And you know this for sure because...? With that sort of response, you make it sound like you know something that the rest of us don't about this.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 13, 2013, 05:37:56 AM
And I suppose you never found yourself in a situation similar to Snowden did where what you were seeing at work was morally wrong and not at all in accordance with American values or the constitution, did you?


American values is a spoiler to the argument. Values should be wider than that in order to mean very much. If you are willing to balance your right and wrongs upon such a narrow beam, then you have to give equal value to advocates of Sharia Laws too. Do you imagine them to be a tiny, insignificant minority?

Anyway, regarding you original question above: I have no idea what Snowden actually saw, invented, imagined or whatever; what I do know is that every walk of life, business experiences included, are always anything but perfectly balanced on that beautiful beam of rightness to which I alluded a moment ago. Life is always flawed, as is every aspect of living it. Some 'flaws' are based on personal greed, some on other character failures and many are simply based on what has to be done to prevent things deteriorating even more rapidly than they always seem to do.

America intervention... well, Clinton and Kennedy and now O'Bama (visual verbal joke) think they magicked Ireland out of chaos. Did Belfast news reach the States today? Pour all the money you like into something - willing hands will always accept it gratefully - but basically, old hatreds and ignorances never die out. It's the fabric of the structures. It's the only game in town. It's always been there, and not limited to that poor country, either.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 13, 2013, 07:08:51 AM
Anyway, regarding you original question above: I have no idea what Snowden actually saw, invented, imagined or whatever; what I do know is that every walk of life, business experiences included, are always anything but perfectly balanced on that beautiful beam of rightness to which I alluded a moment ago. Life is always flawed, as is every aspect of living it. Some 'flaws' are based on personal greed, some on other character failures and many are simply based on what has to be done to prevent things deteriorating even more rapidly than they always seem to do.

And in this case, Snowden decided that enough was enough and that it was time for someone to do something; something had to be done to try and stop things deteriorating further.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 13, 2013, 10:22:47 AM
And you know this for sure because...? With that sort of response, you make it sound like you know something that the rest of us don't about this.

You'd know it too if you'd read the rest of the WSJ regularly.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 13, 2013, 10:24:52 AM
And in this case, Snowden decided that enough was enough and that it was time for someone to do something; something had to be done to try and stop things deteriorating further.


But at the cost of making them worse?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 13, 2013, 01:07:52 PM
Little something making rounds on the Internet:
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 13, 2013, 04:33:09 PM
Little something making rounds on the Internet:

http://www.quora.com/NSA-PRISM-Scandal-June-2013/What-are-the-best-jokes-about-the-NSAs-PRISM-project-and-its-collection-of-Verizon-phone-records

Now, the funniest part is that they are all about Obama having done it, as if he had something to say!  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 13, 2013, 08:23:43 PM
But at the cost of making them worse?

Exactly how has Snowden made anything worse?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 13, 2013, 08:29:04 PM
You'd know it too if you'd read the rest of the WSJ regularly.

Well if your source is the WSJ then why don't you post some links that back up:

In a way it's an unfortunate article because Randy's dead wrong about the constitutionality of what the NSA's doing when it analyzes communications traffic.

I'd be interested to read something that went through the details of the issue and explained how what the NSA is doing is constitutional. So far none of the columns or stories that I've read have said that.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 13, 2013, 09:14:47 PM
Sorry, Dreed. I have other things to do than teach you what you ought to know. The question about communications traffic analysis goes all the way back at least to WW II, and it's always been found constitutional. Under the Constitution the President's first duty is not to get more people onto food stamps or to review citizens' financial transactions with something like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau; it's to defend the United States. He has huge latitude to do that job.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 14, 2013, 05:04:45 AM
Exactly how has Snowden made anything worse?


In exactly the same way as anyone else who discloses state security measures. He arms the very people that the state is trying to keep under control before they kill the rest of us.

But then, that becomes another of those silly student arguments: defending the right to life v. the imaginary rights of those who seek to take it.

But I don't hope to convince you or any of the rest of those who think that 'rights' at all costs is the way to go. It's just another manifestation of the endless bullshit we have in Britain about the 'human rights' of terrorists, illegal immigrants, criminals already in prison - the list is endless and bleeding hearts have been with us all my life. I don't expect that to change.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 14, 2013, 05:39:44 AM
He arms the very people that the state is trying to keep under control before they kill the rest of us.

Rob,

You do not think for a second that the KGB first started by defending its approach by focusing on the need to defeat the ennemies of Russia?

You do not think that, in 1953, there was a guy called RobovitchC who was defending them out of fear that their claims of terrorist threat was true?

The commonality is the effectiveness of the strategy of fear to motivate the citizens to support measures authorizing non democratically elected bodies to run their lives.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on July 14, 2013, 06:50:58 AM
He arms the very people that the state is trying to keep under control ...

That also includes the citizens of that state, doesn't it. Besides, the so-called enemies of the state already knew that all communications can be monitored.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 14, 2013, 07:32:08 AM
Sorry, Dreed. I have other things to do than teach you what you ought to know. The question about communications traffic analysis goes all the way back at least to WW II, and it's always been found constitutional.

Thank you for underscoring the point that there is no substance to your assertion that what the NSA is/was doing today is ok.

Your inability to back up your claims of their actions being "ok" with evidence renders them invalid.

Please return to the debate when you have something of substance to provide rather than finger pointing.

So we're back facing a situation where the NSA is quite clearly operating in a manner that finds some of its actions unconstitutional.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 14, 2013, 07:48:40 AM
Exactly how has Snowden made anything worse?

In exactly the same way as anyone else who discloses state security measures. He arms the very people that the state is trying to keep under control before they kill the rest of us.

He arms who? The terrorists? With what? Knowledge that they need to keep using encryption because the NSA might be listening? Because that's about the sum position thus far.

Snowden hasn't revealed how the US army operates or anything like that.

All that Snowden has done is given those that had reason to suspect that the USA was bugging everyone confirmation that they actually are doing it.

For some people, that confirmation is proving to be a very confronting piece of evidence to swallow because they don't want to believe that their government is doing something wrong - for these people he has made life worse for them because it is now harder to deny that the US government is operating under questionable legal basis.

If you seriously believe that the NSA has done nothing wrong then please, take the blue pill and continue to live your life in denial. If on the other hand you're prepared to wake up and seriously consider what Snowden has to offer then I'd like to offer you the red pill.

The choice is yours.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 14, 2013, 10:11:34 AM
You do not think for a second that the KGB first started by defending its approach by focusing on the need to defeat the ennemies of Russia?

that's how it actually (technically) started (use translate.google.com)... to make sure there is no general strike (of civil/gov't servants)  ;)

"В первые полтора месяца после победы октябрьского вооруженного восстания задачу подавления сопротивления большевистской власти решал Петроградский военно-революционный комитет, работавший под руководством ЦК РСДРП(б) (центральный комитет Российской социал-демократической партии (большевиков) и СНК (Совет народных комиссаров, или Совнарком). 1 декабря 1917 года ВЦИК (Всероссийский центральный исполнительный комитет) рассмотрел вопрос о реорганизации Военно-революционного комитета и образовании вместо него отдела по борьбе с контрреволюцией. 6 декабря Совнарком рассмотрел вопрос "О возможности забастовки служащих в правительственных учреждениях во всероссийском масштабе". Было принято решение создать чрезвычайную комиссию для выяснения возможности борьбы с такой забастовкой путем «самых энергичных революционных мер». На пост председателя комиссии была предложена кандидатура Феликса Дзержинского. В комиссию Дзержинский ввел видных большевиков -- Аверина, Ксенофонтова, Орджоникидзе, Петерса и др.

7 декабря (20-го по новому стилю) Дзержинский на заседании Совнаркома сделал доклад о задачах и правах комиссии. В своей деятельности она, по мнению Дзержинского, должна была обращать внимание прежде всего на печать, «контрреволюционные партии» и саботаж. Ее надлежало наделить довольно широкими правами: производить аресты и конфискации, выселять преступные элементы, лишать продовольственных карточек, публиковать списки врагов народа. СНК во главе с Лениным, заслушав Дзержинского, с его предложениями по наделению нового органа чрезвычайными полномочиями согласился. Именно по предложению Ленина было принято постановление, подтверждавшее непосредственное подчинение ВЧК Совнаркому, а не ЦИК, как предполагалось изначально: «Совет народных комиссаров признает, -- говорилось в постановлении, -- что какие бы то ни было изменения постановлений комиссии Дзержинского, как и других комиссий, назначенных Советами, допустимы только путем обжалования этих постановлений в Совет народных комиссаров». Так родилась ВЧК.

Спустя несколько дней после создания ВЧК переехала из Смольного на Гороховую улицу, в дом 2. Чекисты разместились в кабинетах бывшего отделения по охранению общественной безопасности и порядка управления петроградского градоначальника.

Однако ни один сотрудник царских охранных отделений (распущенных Временным правительством) не пришел на работу в ВЧК -- их просто не брали. Люди, составившие костяк ВЧК, подвергались репрессиям со стороны царского режима, и для них было немыслимо взять на работу своих вчерашних преследователей. Архивисты Лубянки в последние годы неоднократно проводили исследования и ни одного человека из охранки не выявили. Так новая спецслужба начала свою работу -- с нуля: сюда пришли убежденные дилетанты.

23 февраля 1918 года ВЧК направила во все Советы радиотелеграмму с рекомендацией немедленно организовать в районах чрезвычайные комиссии по борьбе с контрреволюцией, саботажем и спекуляцией, если таковые еще не организованы. Одной из первых была образована Московская ЧК. Вслед за ней стали создаваться отделы и комиссариаты по борьбе с контрреволюцией в других городах. 12 июня 1918 года I Всероссийская конференция ЧК приняла "Основные положения об организации чрезвычайных комиссий". В августе 1918 года в Советской республике насчитывалось 75 уездных чрезвычайных комиссий. К концу года было создано 365 уездных ЧК.

Работать в ВЧК было не только престижно, но и выгодно. В 1918 году зарплата члена коллегии ВЧК была 500 руб., что равнялось окладу наркомов. Рядовые чекисты получали 400 руб. Помимо денежного вознаграждения сотрудники ВЧК получали продовольственные и промышленные пайки. Кстати, о легендарных кожанках. Первым сотрудникам ВЧК раздали обмундирование, предназначенное для летчиков первой мировой. Это был «подарок Антанты», который большевики нашли на военных складах Петрограда. (Позже кожаные куртки стали шить для чекистов уже как форменные.)

После революции процентов 80 сотрудников ЧК были рабочими и крестьянами, представители «эксплуататорских классов» не приветствовались. Но первые руководители ЧК преимущественно были интеллигентами из числа так называемых профессиональных революционеров: сам Дзержинский -- из дворян, правда, без образования, дворяне с университетским образованием -- Менжинский, Бокий, высшее образование было и у Ольского, Урицкого и Уншлихта. При подборе руководящих работников для ЧК принадлежность к РКП(б) считалась обязательным условием. По данным на октябрь 1918 года, в 94 губернских и уездных комиссиях из 450 руководящих работников 403 являлись коммунистами, 40 -- сочувствующими коммунистам и семь -- членами «мелкобуржуазных партий». В 65 из 94 чрезвычайных комиссий, в том числе во всех губернских ЧК, ответственные должности занимали коммунисты. Так партия становилась «вдохновителем и организатором» репрессий.

Член Петроградского военно-революционного комитета, руководитель Бюро комиссаров ВРК, в июле--ноябре 1918 года возглавлявший ЧК и Военный трибунал, первый официальный историограф советских спецслужб Мартын Лацис утверждал: «ЧК -- это не следственная коллегия и не суд... это -- боевой орган партии будущего, партии коммунистической. Она уничтожает без суда или изолирует от общества, заключая в концлагерь. Что слово -- то закон. Нет такой области, куда не должна вмешиваться ЧК". Совнарком облекал эту риторику в декреты и постановления. Органы госбезопасности получали все большие полномочия. И власть ЧК становилась всеобъемлющей.

Деятельность ВЧК должны были контролировать народные комиссариаты юстиции и внутренних дел. Должны были... Заместитель наркома юстиции Николай Крыленко, человек, которого вряд ли можно «упрекнуть» в излишнем гуманизме, писал: «ВЧК страшен беспощадностью своей репрессии и полной непроницаемостью для чьего бы то ни было взгляда». Крыленко предлагал передать органы госбезопасности в наркомат юстиции, чтобы и на местах чекисты были под контролем губернских юристов. Дзержинский воспринял это как оскорбление: «Отдача ВЧК под надзор наркомата юстиции роняет наш престиж, умаляет наш авторитет в борьбе с преступлениями, подтверждает все белогвардейские россказни о наших «беззакониях»... Это акт не надзора, а акт дискредитации ВЧК и ее органов. ЧК находятся под надзором партии. Губюсты -- это органы формальной справедливости, а ЧК органы дисциплинированной партийной боевой дружины».

Дзержинский считал: «Работники ЧК -- это солдаты революции. Право расстрела для ЧК чрезвычайно важно». И был услышан. С февраля 1918-го на основании декрета СНК «Социалистическое отечество в опасности» чекисты получили чрезвычайные полномочия и право применять высшую меру без суда и следствия (вплоть до расстрела на месте), которое было подтверждено постановлением СНК от 5 сентября 1918 года «О красном терроре». Политбюро и СНК, государство, принимавшее человеконенавистнические законы, дали своей карательной системе (куда, кстати, входили и прокуратура, и суды) право на все. "
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Klein on July 14, 2013, 02:53:03 PM
Would you translate that for us? Or is it in code?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 14, 2013, 05:29:36 PM
Would you translate that for us? Or is it in code?


No: Letraset block type. Great for layouts!

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 14, 2013, 05:32:05 PM
barbaric :)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 14, 2013, 06:01:21 PM
Would you translate that for us? Or is it in code?

Nothing sinister in that text... just an intro into how the VCK, a predecessor to KGB, was formed and given unlimited powers (including the right to kill on the spot) without any judicial control or consequences. The justification was, of course, defense of the new state from its "enemies."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 14, 2013, 07:12:29 PM
Nothing sinister in that text... just an intro into how the VCK, a predecessor to KGB, was formed and given unlimited powers (including the right to kill on the spot) without any judicial control or consequences. The justification was, of course, defense of the new state from its "enemies."

And of course Vladimir Putin, a former Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB and currently the de facto dictator of Russia, comes directly from that tradition. And this is the country to which Snowden has just applied for asylum? I think that speaks volumes about just how messed up his vaunted "moral judgement" really is. Snowden is a naive fool. He has no clue whatsoever what actual spying entails or what the NSA is really trying to do. He failed to see the big picture before he acted and now he's paying the price for his stupidity.

It's no wonder that the only countries willing to give him asylum are authoritarian hell holes. Snowden is about to get a hard lesson in realpolitik. Let those who condemn the NSA offer their own alternative for detecting terrorist plots. I'm sure we'd all love to know how they would prevent them. Until then, I'll take the NSA's gathering of metadata and oversight by FISA over the KGB/FSB's unfettered spying and contempt for the rule of law any day.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 14, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
Nothing sinister in that text... just an intro into how the VCK, a predecessor to KGB, was formed and given unlimited powers (including the right to kill on the spot) without any judicial control or consequences. The justification was, of course, defense of the new state from its "enemies."
This gets lost in translation,
that is, the jump between innocent until proven guilty,
and just how the money part of this works.
So does the nation's intelligence and law enforcement agencies have the mandate to turn the weapons only ever used openly on foreign govts, to domestic subversives, and activists, poor people, and reform movements?
Just last month there was a big hoopla about the southern california tea partiers having to answer a questionnaire about how many times its members had been arrested or along those lines.
There is no diff between now, and when the fbi and cia infiltrated and cast burdens on subversives and peace activists circa 65-75 here in cali
All the way to killing and bombing and general mayhem directed by the US govt.
It's their business.
The difference is they only used to do it to named groups and their associates,
you know,
the black panthers, aim, democratic students, etc,
now they do it to all of you,
HAHAHA
suckers
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 14, 2013, 08:03:50 PM
... I think that speaks volumes about just how messed up his vaunted "moral judgement" really is...

Actually, Doug, the whole debate is not, paradoxically enough, about him, but about us and the government, about docile masses and power grab, about the trade-off between freedom and security. He was just a messenger (and now trying not to get shot).
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 15, 2013, 02:20:24 AM
And of course Vladimir Putin, a former Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB and currently the de facto dictator of Russia, comes directly from that tradition. And this is the country to which Snowden has just applied for asylum? I think that speaks volumes about just how messed up his vaunted "moral judgement" really is.

On the contrary, I think it speaks volumes about the much vaunted right to trial and judicial process in the USA. He'd rather live in a country that you question the government of than in one that claims to have a democratically elected government but has no qualms about torturing prisoners.

Considering that Snowden will again never be able to return home, he is in effect going to be in a jail of sorts for the rest of his life.

Quote
Snowden is a naive fool. He has no clue whatsoever what actual spying entails or what the NSA is really trying to do. He failed to see the big picture before he acted and now he's paying the price for his stupidity.

Wrong, he's got more guts than most of the other people that work for the government and either turn a blind eye to the lies or help further them.

Quote
It's no wonder that the only countries willing to give him asylum are authoritarian hell holes. Snowden is about to get a hard lesson in realpolitik. Let those who condemn the NSA offer their own alternative for detecting terrorist plots. I'm sure we'd all love to know how they would prevent them. Until then, I'll take the NSA's gathering of metadata and oversight by FISA over the KGB/FSB's unfettered spying and contempt for the rule of law any day.

How do you know that the NSA just gathers metadata? Because they say so? After all of their denials about doing that and evidence now being presented, how can you trust them? The NSA are acting in a manner that is no better than the KGB/FSB. There's no public review of the FISA so while it sounds nice having it present, all that it really means is that there is a rubber stamp process to follow. It allows those (such as the NSA) that need FISA approval to say "See, the FISA approved it so it must be ok."

You know what I'd prefer?

I'd prefer to say this:

"OK, you terrorists might fly buildings into planes, blow up toilets in marathons and scare people but we the people of America are a free people that respect privacy and our freedoms. We are not going to give those up to your threats of violence - we're going to hold strong to our beliefs. We the people of the USA will not give in to your intimidation, threats or acts of violence. Yes, some of us may die for that freedom on our home soil but that is better than sending troops overseas to murder and die in a foreign land. Freedom isn't free and if dieing at home means that the USA continues to be a free nation then that's a price we should be all willing to pay."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 15, 2013, 08:54:35 AM
Because they say so?
come on... RSL read that in WSJ  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 15, 2013, 10:39:35 AM
"OK, you terrorists might fly buildings into planes, blow up toilets in marathons and scare people but we the people of America are a free people that respect privacy and our freedoms. We are not going to give those up to your threats of violence - we're going to hold strong to our beliefs. We the people of the USA will not give in to your intimidation, threats or acts of violence. Yes, some of us may die for that freedom on our home soil but that is better than sending troops overseas to murder and die in a foreign land. Freedom isn't free and if dieing at home means that the USA continues to be a free nation then that's a price we should be all willing to pay."

Dreed, Flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up toilets is bb-gun level stuff. It's pretty obvious you haven't a clue what would happen if a "small" a nuclear weapon went off in one or our cities. You might get your hands on and study the U.S. Government publication The Effects of Nuclear Weapons. Among other things the book lays out the results of research from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bursts, both of which were "small." If you really think what the NSA is doing now unduly restricts our freedoms, you'll be astonished at the restrictions a vast majority will DEMAND if that level of attack occurs because the NSA was prevented from doing its job by people who are ignorant of what's actually at stake.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: opgr on July 15, 2013, 11:13:32 AM
Dreed, Flying airplanes into buildings and blowing up toilets is bb-gun level stuff. It's pretty obvious you haven't a clue what would happen if a "small" a nuclear weapon went off in one or our cities. You might get your hands on and study the U.S. Government publication The Effects of Nuclear Weapons. Among other things the book lays out the results of research from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bursts, both of which were "small." If you really think what the NSA is doing now unduly restricts our freedoms, you'll be astonished at the restrictions a vast majority will DEMAND if that level of attack occurs because the NSA was prevented from doing its job by people who are ignorant of what's actually at stake.

Perhaps you should first stop calling people ignorant. Ignorance requires education, and calling people stupid is not exactly helping them become educated. Neither is hiding behind secrecy. The world is not divided up between some elite and the ignorant. If the vast majority prefers to be ignorati with an idea of freedom and suffer the consequences, then perhaps you should accept that you live in a democracy.

Secondly, since the Japanese have actually suffered those attacks, might I ask what "restrictions" they have "demanded" after these attacks?

Thirdly, you keep telling us about unknown doomsday scenarios that might happen because of our ignorance. The reality is however that we didn't suffer 9/11 attacks each and every day because of our collective heads-in-the-sand approach to intelligence prior to 9/11.

Fourthly, NO these are not my arguments AGAINST intel collection. As technology progresses, so should intelgathering. But that doesn't mean they get to write their own laws.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 15, 2013, 11:18:53 AM
If you really think what the NSA is doing now unduly restricts our freedoms, you'll be astonished at the restrictions a vast majority will DEMAND if that level of attack occurs because the NSA was prevented from doing its job by people who are ignorant of what's actually at stake.

Assuming that Islamic terrorism is what you have in mind, what is the key event having triggered the kind of hatred likely to generate such terrorism?

The #1 cause is the war in Irak that is apparently seen by many muslim extremists as a war against their religion.

Who caused the war in Irak? The intelligence community in the US.

So we have an amazingly clear example of vicious circle where a belief in future terrorist threats justifies a very elaborate set of lies that end up being the very cause of more future terrorist threats... only with 10 times more potential bombers.

Considering this track record, it seems reasonable to request citizens control... right?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 15, 2013, 11:49:39 AM
Assuming that Islamic terrorism is what you have in mind, what is the key event having triggered the kind of hatred likely to generate such terrorism?

The #1 cause is the war in Irak that is apparently seen by many muslim extremists as a war against their religion.Who caused the war in Irak? The intelligence community in the US.

So we have an amazingly clear example of vicious circle where a belief in future terrorist threats justifies a very elaborate set of lies that end up being the very cause of more future terrorist threats... only with 10 times more potential bombers. Send drones to Yemen and collateral damage innocent families... more bombers.

Who needs enemies when you have such friends looking over your shoulder.

Considering this track record, it seems reasonable to request citizens control... right?

But wait... I see a strange similarity with the gun control discussion... We need more guns to protect ourselves... against... those guys who have guns?

Cheers,
Bernard


Really? It's something that's been going on since the Crusades, all of them. It has connections to the US's obvious love affair with Isreal - hardly surprising when you think about what powers much of America - and don't forget the Wahabist concept, where anybody who isn't with them is agin them and fair game for the scimitar. Or the Semtex. Or the fertilizer, if you're strapped for cash.

It's all a friggin' mess. I wish we had a viable, affordable alternative to gasoline/diesel/plastic. Nah, not coal; that would bring back the union dinosaurs and their power structures and games...

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 15, 2013, 01:06:27 PM
Ignorance requires education.

Eh? Come again?

Quote
Secondly, since the Japanese have actually suffered those attacks, might I ask what "restrictions" they have "demanded" after these attacks?

Japan hasn't had to worry about attacks since 1945 when the United States took on the burden of their defense.

Quote
Thirdly, you keep telling us about unknown doomsday scenarios that might happen because of our ignorance. The reality is however that we didn't suffer 9/11 attacks each and every day because of our collective heads-in-the-sand approach to intelligence prior to 9/11.

That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack -- because by government edict we were forced to stick our heads in the sand. You might try reading a bit more widely.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 15, 2013, 01:39:44 PM

That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack


no... because what goes around comes around.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 15, 2013, 01:46:09 PM
On the contrary, I think it speaks volumes about the much vaunted right to trial and judicial process in the USA. He'd rather live in a country that you question the government of than in one that claims to have a democratically elected government but has no qualms about torturing prisoners.

That's a laugh. I suppose you think Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuela are gardens of freedom and democracy? And you accuse others of living in denial? If Snowden is such a martyr to justice and democracy, why is it that that no western industrial nation has offered him asylum when all of them would refuse to extradite a political refugee? Or in your little paranoid world do you actually believe that these countries are in the pocket of the U.S.? I doubt, for example, that anyone could accuse France of being bullied into submission by America. After all, this is the country that told the U.S. to get lost when we wanted them to join in the Iraq invasion in 2003. No, I'm afraid that Snowden is stuck with life in autocratic nations, because the more democratic ones have seen him for the grandstanding idiot he is.

Quote
Considering that Snowden will again never be able to return home, he is in effect going to be in a jail of sorts for the rest of his life.

He has no one but himself to blame for that.

Quote
Wrong, he's got more guts than most of the other people that work for the government and either turn a blind eye to the lies or help further them.

He's a fool and a spineless simp whose egomania has led him on a false crusade against an imagined injustice.

Quote
How do you know that the NSA just gathers metadata? Because they say so? After all of their denials about doing that and evidence now being presented, how can you trust them?

A much better question is why don't you trust them? All you've offered is paranoia and unsubstantiated accusations. As the accuser, the onus is on you to provide us with evidence to support your argument that the NSA is unworthy of trust. You haven't done that, because there's no substance to your accusations. I'd sooner trust the NSA than your worthless diatribes.

Quote
The NSA are acting in a manner that is no better than the KGB/FSB. There's no public review of the FISA so while it sounds nice having it present, all that it really means is that there is a rubber stamp process to follow. It allows those (such as the NSA) that need FISA approval to say "See, the FISA approved it so it must be ok."

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to prove what you're saying, or are we supposed to accept it on faith merely because it comes from you?

Quote
You know what I'd prefer?

I'd prefer to say this:

"OK, you terrorists might fly buildings into planes, blow up toilets in marathons and scare people but we the people of America are a free people that respect privacy and our freedoms. We are not going to give those up to your threats of violence - we're going to hold strong to our beliefs. We the people of the USA will not give in to your intimidation, threats or acts of violence. Yes, some of us may die for that freedom on our home soil but that is better than sending troops overseas to murder and die in a foreign land. Freedom isn't free and if dieing at home means that the USA continues to be a free nation then that's a price we should be all willing to pay."

Now the truth finally comes out: you're just fine with sitting back and letting terrorists carry out their plans. You wouldn't lift a finger to prevent an attack on my country, just so you could protect the sacred "privacy" of your phone bill. Well, I'm sorry, but I think that saving lives is more important than your metadata. I prefer to say this: if the NSA's Prism program has been compromised because of what your pal Snowden has done, you should offer to dig the graves of the people who are murdered in the next terrorist attack with your bare hands.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 15, 2013, 02:07:37 PM
Ignorance requires education. . .

Actually, after thinking about this I realize that considering the state of our education system you may have a point.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 15, 2013, 05:27:36 PM
My personal objection is that we seem to have a sliding scale as to the value of life, dignity, and freedom.
So, if you're willing to go along with the system, and live within that construct, and hopefully find a comfortable if happy existence,  you have no problem here.
There are small inconveniences like getting the wrong persons bridge fare through the mail,
because now the technology has done away with toll takers, and replaced them with cameras that mail out the fare, and pay you must,
so there have been numerous erroneous tickets mailed due to the camera getting it wrong.
It won't bother you to deal with that sort of thing,
but how about when you choose to exercise your constitutional rights, and get photographed, contact documented, and later put over to a series of lists and protocols to maybe heighten the scrutiny your name gets at every subsequent contact.
So, like maybe monsanto really did hire blackwater to keep track of activists worldwide,
like maybe chevron and safeway, nabisco and adm have all of our backs and wont deplete the worlds resources until there aren't too many options.
Like we'll all just let anyone do just whatever they want in the name of hegemony of well,
the people that can least defend themselves to you know we strong moral and unfailing democracies.
Like the one that has just about abandoned any hope of a good outcome in the two war zones we are responsible for.
But enough carping,
let the dark forces destroy themselves,
that's the end of the line,
whether we all get destroyed as um they call it collateral damage I believe,
well that's what my first obscure joke about broken arrow meant,
but you know,
I'd go on for hours if I were king,
you all woyuld sit down and shut up, and quit calling each other names, and in the name of all that all that could be called good and holy,
quit killing each otgher for a minute,
dang
you guys aren't allowed on my homeplace armed...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 15, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
no... because what goes around comes around.

Sorry, Vlad, haven't the foggiest idea what that means.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 15, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
There seems to be a touch of discord here. Perhaps we should discuss the Zimmerman/Martin trial.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 16, 2013, 12:31:10 AM
That's a laugh. I suppose you think Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuela are gardens of freedom and democracy?

Well they're doing just as fine as the USA is right now. In the USA, if you don't like an election result and it is close enough, take it to court:
Florida Election Recount (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount)

Then to make it harder for the poor and disadvantaged to vote, you introduce new measures such as requiring ID:
Help America Vote Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_America_Vote_Act)

Then if you don't like people exercising their freedom of speech outside your office, you introduce legislation telling them where they can exercise their freedom of speech (somewhere not in the public eye):
Freedom of speech zones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone)

... do you want me to go on?

Quote
And you accuse others of living in denial?

Quote
If Snowden is such a martyr to justice and democracy, why is it that that no western industrial nation has offered him asylum when all of them would refuse to extradite a political refugee?

Political interference from the USA.

Quote
Or in your little paranoid world do you actually believe that these countries are in the pocket of the U.S.? I doubt, for example, that anyone could accuse France of being bullied into submission by America. After all, this is the country that told the U.S. to get lost when we wanted them to join in the Iraq invasion in 2003.

More than likely they've been told to stay out and that if they in any way assist (i.e allow Snowden to fly over their country) then they'll be considered accomplices. Thus other countries want to stay the hell out of it and do not want to be in any way seen to assist.

Quote
He's a fool and a spineless simp whose egomania has led him on a false crusade against an imagined injustice.

No, he's quite brave because he's willing to make a stand for what he believes in.

Quote
A much better question is why don't you trust them? All you've offered is paranoia and unsubstantiated accusations. As the accuser, the onus is on you to provide us with evidence to support your argument that the NSA is unworthy of trust. You haven't done that, because there's no substance to your accusations. I'd sooner trust the NSA than your worthless diatribes.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to prove what you're saying, or are we supposed to accept it on faith merely because it comes from you?

NSA denies eillegal spying
 (http://www.sunjournal.com/news/nation/0001/11/30/nsa-denies-illegal-spying/1377076)
DNI Clapper Says Statement to Congress about NSA data collection was erroneous (https://threatpost.com/dni-clapper-says-statement-to-congress-about-nsa-data-collection-was-erroneous)

Would you like me to find your more evidence of the NSA saying one thing but in fact does another?

Quote
Now the truth finally comes out: you're just fine with sitting back and letting terrorists carry out their plans.

No, rather the evidence from your post makes it quite clear that your own personal life is much more important to you than the rights and freedoms upon which the USA was founded.

Quote
You wouldn't lift a finger to prevent an attack on my country, just so you could protect the sacred "privacy" of your phone bill. Well, I'm sorry, but I think that saving lives is more important than your metadata.

And what happens when metadata isn't enough?
Does the boundary get expanded to include phone call contents?
Where does it stop, when the terrorists are all caught?
You do realise don't you that catching all terrorists, before they carry out terrorist attacks, is impossible don't you?

Once you let the government in just a little bit it is really hard to get them out because they'll keep wanting more.

What is at stake here is a whole lot more than the privacy of a phone bill.

Quote
I prefer to say this: if the NSA's Prism program has been compromised because of what your pal Snowden has done, you should offer to dig the graves of the people who are murdered in the next terrorist attack with your bare hands.

And how do you plan to prove that PRISM would have been the only thing that could have saved their lives?
PRISM didn't stop what happened in Boston, so what makes you think it will stop anything else?

In short, this is likely something that can never be proved one way or the other, so this is a rather pointless statement.

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and say that if you don't value your privacy, why don't you go and live in China?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2013, 03:00:42 AM
Let me put the shoe on the other foot and say that if you don't value your privacy, why don't you go and live in China?

It fact... that makes a lot of sense.

There is clearly a part of the population in Western countries who has been made to be very afraid of the world outside. Their interests happen to closely match those of lobbies such as the weapon and defense lobbies to such an extend that the cause and the effect become unclear, I call them the cluster of fear.

They are of course trying to spread their disease to the rest of our countries and are apparently willing to bypass the democratic safeguards that may come in the way.

Instead of imposing these practices to the rest of us, it would make sense for them to regroup in a smaller entity and claim independence. They wouldn't have to move to China, they could just occupy a subset of the states in the US and cultivate their fear among each others?

My bet is that this new super safe state will attract more terrorism than the rest of the world.

Perfect safety is an illusion, is the counter part of fear, an illusion that eats you and ends up the origin of terror.

Ever noticed that terror and fear are in fact synonyms? The goal of terror is not to kill our citizens, it is to make us afraid to such an extend that we commit a form a suicide, we imprison ourselves in a tower isolated form the world.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 16, 2013, 03:23:34 AM
... do you want me to go on?

Dear God, no!

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 16, 2013, 03:25:13 AM
no... because what goes around comes around.

Sorry, Vlad, haven't the foggiest idea what that means.

It's a pointless cliché, Russ: it means nothing. It's used by those who have an urge to say something but have nothing to say.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 16, 2013, 04:07:37 AM
It fact... that makes a lot of sense.

There is clearly a part of the population in Western countries who has been made to be very afraid of the world outside. Their interests happen to closely match those of lobbies such as the weapon and defense lobbies to such an extend that the cause and the effect become unclear, I call them the cluster of fear.

They are of course trying to spread their disease to the rest of our countries and are apparently willing to bypass the democratic safeguards that may come in the way.

Instead of imposing these practices to the rest of us, it would make sense for them to regroup in a smaller entity and claim independence. They wouldn't have to move to China, they could just occupy a subset of the states in the US and cultivate their fear among each others?

My bet is that this new super safe state will attract more terrorism that the rest of the world.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard, it really depresses me to read you writing this stuff. I had always believed much better, especially from someone well-travelled. I guess we just take different lessons from similar experiences.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2013, 04:17:42 AM
Bernard, it really depresses me to read you writing this stuff. I had always believed much better, especially from someone well-travelled. I guess we just take different lessons from similar experiences.

It would appear so Rob.

Life has taught me so far that looking at things positively is much more powerful than the opposite, by several orders of magnitude.

It is much more difficult, but I am too young to go for the easy route.

I read Ted, not criminal records.

Contrary to popular belief, it seems that many people in Yemen were mostly pro-West until... a couple of drones killed supposed terrorists... and also a few dozens of collateral damages... normal citizens who had baseball posters in their bedrooms.

Fear created hatred, not the opposite.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 16, 2013, 04:40:14 AM
It's a pointless cliché, Russ: it means nothing...

I have to disagree, Jeremy. In this particular case, it is a perfectly appropriate phrase and means a lot. To those who get it, of course. I am sure both you and Russ get it too, just do not want to go there. This debate is contentious enough without having to spell out what the phrase means in the relevant context.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 16, 2013, 08:06:20 AM
It's a complete disconnect from the statement it was supposed, profoundly, to refute, Slobodan. You know that as well as I do and as Jeremy does. As such, in context, it's about as meaningful a response as " little lambseaddivy."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 16, 2013, 09:03:30 AM
Gentlemen,

Get yourselves out of this vortex. Fresh air, sunshine, lens cap off....maybe a beer at about 3 pm.  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 09:36:07 AM
It's a pointless cliché, Russ: it means nothing. It's used by those who have an urge to say something but have nothing to say.
it means everything... you helped the same guys that later bite you  ;D... you put a lot of effort to hurt left(ist) seculars, now reap the crop.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 09:38:10 AM
Perhaps we should discuss the Zimmerman/Martin trial.
but what exactly was on trial there ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 16, 2013, 11:19:57 AM
it means everything... you helped the same guys that later bite you  ;D... you put a lot of effort to hurt left(ist) seculars, now reap the crop.

Sorry again, Vlad, but I know English isn't your first language, so I have to take that into account. What I said was "That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack." The key word in that sentence is "suffered." I didn't say anything about the source of the attack. That's a different subject, upon which we probably also disagree. The attack would have been thwarted (not suffered) if our security agencies had been allowed to communicate fully with each other. The weren't allowed to do that, so the attack "slipped through the crack," as our left-wingers would have it, as they try to to duck their clear responsibility for the clamp on our security agencies.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 16, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
The blame game reaches new lows?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 16, 2013, 12:48:56 PM
Go ahead, Stamper. Refute it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 01:29:57 PM
Sorry again, Vlad, but I know English isn't your first language, so I have to take that into account.

true, albeit teachers were trying hard to teach me that since 2nd grade, 5 days a week (that was when ? Jimmy Carter was still a president then)... probably I was too lazy  ;)

What I said was "That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack." The key word in that sentence is "suffered." I didn't say anything about the source of the attack.

of course you didn't... however you shall start with the source and the reason why that source happened in the first place...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 16, 2013, 03:36:37 PM
Okay, explain it to me. What do you think was the reason?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2013, 03:56:06 PM
Okay, explain it to me. What do you think was the reason?

Out of curiosity, what are your views on that point?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 04:08:29 PM
Well they're doing just as fine as the USA is right now. In the USA, if you don't like an election result and it is close enough, take it to court:
Florida Election Recount (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount)

Really? Is that your response? "They're doing just fine"? You're even more uniformed than I imagined.

123 Russian journalists have been murdered since Putin came to power. I'm sure their loved ones will be delighted to hear that they're "doing just fine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin_.28incl._2nd_Chechen_conflict.29

Oh, and the relevance of the 2000 vote tally in Florida is?? And what do you suppose the fate of a journalist who broke such a story in Russia or China would be?

Quote
Then to make it harder for the poor and disadvantaged to vote, you introduce new measures such as requiring ID:
Help America Vote Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_America_Vote_Act)

You really do have an attention span problem. Again, your response is completely off-topic.

Quote
Then if you don't like people exercising their freedom of speech outside your office, you introduce legislation telling them where they can exercise their freedom of speech (somewhere not in the public eye):
Freedom of speech zones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone)

Snowden's actions went far beyond free speech. He willfully broke the secrecy oath he signed and tried to damage the U.S.

Quote
... do you want me to go on?

Only if you have something to contribute. But judging from your input so far, that doesn't seem likely.

Quote
Political interference from the USA.

More than likely they've been told to stay out and that if they in any way assist (i.e allow Snowden to fly over their country) then they'll be considered accomplices. Thus other countries want to stay the hell out of it and do not want to be in any way seen to assist.
What political interference? What evidence do you have? Nothing! Tell us exactly which countries would be so intimidated by the United States that they would deny someone with a just cause from traversing their skies. I'd really like to know, because there are ZERO European nations who would hesitate to tell the U.S. to "f*ck off" about anything else they care about.

Quote

No, he's quite brave because he's willing to make a stand for what he believes in.


Sure. Right. That's why the first thing he does is run to that bastion of freedom and tolerance called China and then Russia.

Quote
NSA denies eillegal spying
 (http://www.sunjournal.com/news/nation/0001/11/30/nsa-denies-illegal-spying/1377076)
DNI Clapper Says Statement to Congress about NSA data collection was erroneous (https://threatpost.com/dni-clapper-says-statement-to-congress-about-nsa-data-collection-was-erroneous)

Would you like me to find your more evidence of the NSA saying one thing but in fact does another?

What do you mean by "more evidence"? Because there's nothing but unsubstantiated allegations, hearsay and guesswork in the first article you provided and nothing at all in the second one.

Quote
No, rather the evidence from your post makes it quite clear that your own personal life is much more important to you than the rights and freedoms upon which the USA was founded.

Give me a break. The NSA looking at your international phone records is not an attack on anyone's "rights and freedoms". Assuming, for the moment, that you're even an American, tell us what rights and freedoms have been taken away from you?

Quote
And what happens when metadata isn't enough?


What happens if you get a brain?

Quote
Does the boundary get expanded to include phone call contents?

You wouldn't have to ask that question if you had even a cursory understanding of what Prism, or the NSA, is here to do.

Quote
Where does it stop, when the terrorists are all caught?


Now there's a truly idiotic question for you.

Quote
You do realise don't you that catching all terrorists, before they carry out terrorist attacks, is impossible don't you?

I assumed wrong. You're not an American. And now that you've inadvertently tipped your hand, it's clear that you have no vested interest in my country and therefore no moral authority in this discussion.

But to continue our previous thread...you are completely, thoroughly clueless. As a binary thinker, I wouldn't expect you to understand the value of preventing even one attack. Your insistence of an all or nothing justification for a program like Prism betrays an adolescent and self-centered perspective. If Prism prevented even one attack it would be well worth it. But as a matter of fact, through the efforts of the U.S. intelligence services, hundreds of attacks have already been thwarted. But I would gladly trade all the metadata on the planet to save just one life.

Quote
Once you let the government in just a little bit it is really hard to get them out because they'll keep wanting more.

Which government are you referring to--yours or mine? I'm sure mine is having a big laugh looking at your phone bill right now.

Quote
What is at stake here is a whole lot more than the privacy of a phone bill.

If there is, you've made no case for it whatsoever. You've offered no evidence, only the kind of moronic platitudes that one finds on paranoia factories like 4chan.

Quote

And how do you plan to prove that PRISM would have been the only thing that could have saved their lives?


Only thing? You haven't been paying attention.

Quote
PRISM didn't stop what happened in Boston, so what makes you think it will stop anything else?

Again, you display a total ignorance of what Prism does. If you don't have even the most basic facts there's no point of discussing the matter with you further. Come back when you've done your homework, kid.

Quote
In short, this is likely something that can never be proved one way or the other, so this is a rather pointless statement.
Let me put the shoe on the other foot and say that if you don't value your privacy, why don't you go and live in China?

LOL my privacy here in the U.S. is just fine, thank you. Why don't you follow you buddy Snowden to Russia and see how the privacy is over there?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 16, 2013, 04:29:03 PM
Go ahead, Stamper. Refute it.

"An Inability to Disprove Does Not Prove: The fact that there is no concrete proof against a position does not constitute an argument in favor of the position. I cannot claim to be right simply because you can't prove me wrong."

Being Logical (http://books.google.com/books?id=xRCkNvDlRtYC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false), page 124
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2013, 04:35:08 PM
I'd really like to know, because there are ZERO European nations who would hesitate to tell the U.S. to "f*ck off" about anything else they care about.

That simply is not true at all.

US-EU relationship are an order of magnitude more complex than you seem to think.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:04:20 PM
123 Russian journalists have been murdered since Putin came to power.
that includes all deaths from all causes (including politically motivated murders, payback from criminals when journalist was investigating something purely criminal, accidents, etc)...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:06:18 PM
and see how the privacy is over there?
less technology = more privacy, dear... unlike you I have both citizenships and can compare in person.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:10:40 PM
Okay, explain it to me. What do you think was the reason?
simple - you cultivated bad guys to fight left(ist) seculars, you organized coups against those, you got a well deserved payback.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:18:40 PM
that includes all deaths from all causes (including politically motivated murders, payback from criminals when journalist was investigating something purely criminal, accidents, etc)...

And I'm sure Snowden will love living there.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:19:14 PM
He willfully broke the secrecy oath he signed and tried to damage the U.S.
and people who tried to kill Adolf broke their oath and tried to damage their state... oh wait... they apparently had a different understanding what their state was, so Snowden has different idea what and who is damaging the U.S  :P ... or for example do you think founding fathers intended for females and negroes and whatever to vote ? so their idea of the U.S. is not exactly the one that you have (or... may be it is  ;D) ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:20:42 PM
less technology = more privacy, dear... unlike you I have both citizenships and can compare in person.

As if your privacy is more secure in Russia. Don't make me laugh.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
and people who tried to kill Adolf broke their oath and tried to damage their state... oh wait... they apparently had a different understanding what their state was, so Snowden has different idea what and who is damaging the U.S  :P ... or for example do you think founding fathers intended for females and negroes and whatever to vote ? so their idea of the U.S. is not exactly the one that you have (or... may be it is  ;D) ?

And your reason for comparing a mass murderer like Hitler to the U.S. is?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:27:55 PM
That simply is not true at all.

US-EU relationship are an order of magnitude more complex than you seem to think.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not about complexity. It's about America's ability to strong arm its allies, which is much less than you suppose. If most of Europe was unwilling to back America in its invasion of Iraq in 2003, how much easier do you think it would be for them to allow Snowden safe passage over their airspace? The answer is: a lot easier. The reason for them not rushing to Snowden's aid isn't because of America's leverage with them. It's because they're not buying Snowden's phony moral crusade.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:32:55 PM
And your reason for comparing a mass murderer like Hitler to the U.S. is?
it is about people making their call what they consider the right thing to do... Snowden made his call... and your problem is ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
As if your privacy is more secure in Russia. Don't make me laugh.
as noted - unlike you I know what I am talking about not from books or movies
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:34:55 PM
as noted - unlike you I know what I am talking about not from books or movies

Let's ask the members of Pussy Riot what they think.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:37:16 PM
And I'm sure Snowden will love living there.
you are not that stupid to think that his actions were intended just to get an asylum there...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:39:27 PM
Let's ask the members of Pussy Riot what they think.
absolutely - media has full access to few of them who were convicted... they were not kept in brig or whatever  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
It's because they're not buying Snowden's phony moral crusade.
whores are not buying anybody's moral crusade... they selling for the right price.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:42:40 PM
you are not that stupid to think that his actions were intended just to get an asylum there...

I never said that I thought he ultimately intended to get asylum in Russia. It's more that I find it ironic that he should wind up in a country that's micromanaged by a former KGB officer. However, he did apparently intend to defect to China, where he flew to first. Would you characterize China as a stalwart defender of peoples' rights?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:44:10 PM
whores are not buying anybody's moral crusade... they selling for the right price.

That's interesting. Which European countries do you contend are being run by whores? France? Holland? Austria? I'm curious.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:47:38 PM
I never said that I thought he ultimately intended to get asylum in Russia.

then what is has to do with whether he likes it there or not ? well, that is a price he pays...

It's more that I find it ironic that he should wind up in a country that's micromanaged by a former KGB officer.

well, I find it ironic too... for a different reason though  ;) ... http://www.inliberty.ru/blog/karmodi/3818/ - use translate.google.com (the author is certainly not pro Putin)


However, he did apparently intend to defect to China, where he flew to first. Would you characterize China as a stalwart defender of peoples' rights?

I characterize China as the country that US is afraid of  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 05:49:34 PM
That's interesting. Which European countries do you contend are being run by whores? France? Holland? Austria? I'm curious.
let us start with those caught with their pants off with Bolivia's president flight...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
absolutely - media has full access to few of them who were convicted... they were not kept in brig or whatever  ;D

Well, perhaps you should send a letter of protest to Amnesty International, which has declared them "prisoners of conscience". Obviously, you know much more about their fate than they do.

Oh, and by the way, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Maria Alyokhina are still in prison for their protest. But being the Russian expert you are, you knew that, right?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 05:54:15 PM
then what is has to do with whether he likes it there or not ? well, that is a price he pays...

well, I find it ironic too... for a different reason though  ;) ... http://www.inliberty.ru/blog/karmodi/3818/ - use translate.google.com (the author is certainly not pro Putin)


I characterize China as the country that US is afraid of  ;D

That only shows how little you understand about my country or its relationship with China.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 06:03:00 PM
Well, perhaps you should file send a letter of protest to Amnesty International, which has declared them "prisoners of conscience".

why ? I do not put Snowden and pussy riot act on the same level, sorry.

Obviously, you know much more about their fate than they do.

certainly more than you do, because see I can read opinions from both sides in Russia, in Russian, in original... you can't... so you digest what was lost in translation  ;)

Oh, and by the way, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Maria Alyokhina are still in prison for their protest. But being the Russian expert you are, you knew that, right?

yes, there are... serving the sentence... like Capone who was nailed for taxes, they were nailed for the proper technicalities (they had to think first and stage the performance outside)... that how it works  :D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 06:06:54 PM
That only shows how little you understand about my country or its relationship with China.
dear, as I noted I have US citizenship, so it is as my country as yours and unlike you (with Russia, Russian language) I do not need translation to understand English...  :D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 06:10:27 PM
why ? I do not put Snowden and pussy riot act on the same level, sorry.

When the facts become inconvenient, so much for the facts. How very Stalinist of you.

Quote
certainly more than you do, because see I can read opinions from both sides in Russia, in Russian, in original... you can't... so you digest what was lost in translation  ;)
So, I take it you disagree with Amnesty International?
Quote
yes, there are... serving the sentence... like Capone who was nailed for taxes, they were nailed for the proper technicalities (they had to think first and stage the performance outside)... that how it works  :D

So much for the right to protest injustice in Russia. Comparing Pussy Riot to a notorious gangster and murderer is pretty serious. How many people did Pussy Riot murder?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 06:11:19 PM
dear, as I noted I have US citizenship, so it is as my country as yours and unlike you (with Russia, Russian language) I do not need translation to understand English...  :D

I don't question your ability to understand English. But you do need to check your facts.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 06:26:27 PM
When the facts become inconvenient, so much for the facts. How very Stalinist of you.

which specific fact I dispute ? pussy riot staged a performance in a certain place and that (where it happened) was used as a technicality to convict some of them in a court of law and sentence some to prison time... I approve what Snowden did, I do not approve pussy riot staging an act in church (outside a lot of people do the same putin-mocking on a regular basis and walk free, that is unless they start the fights with police)... I am indifferent to mocking a thief (be that thief mr Putin or mr Khodorkovsky - they are both thiefs, just only one gang can be in power at a time - it happened that Khodorkovsky joined the wrong one), I do approve prosecuting similar acts commited in church (or mosque or  synagogue or etc).

So, I take it you disagree with Amnesty International?

no, why shall I ? as I noted before - pussy riot got nailed on technicality... next time they will think where to express their opinions.

So much for the right to protest injustice in Russia.

you can protest whatever you want but you need to understand that there are certain places not suitable for certain protests... may I come with a gun in a school to stage a pro gun act ? may I ?

Comparing Pussy Riot to a notorious gangster and murderer is pretty serious. How many people did Pussy Riot murder?

was Capone convicted of murder  ;D ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 16, 2013, 06:28:46 PM
I don't question your ability to understand English. But you do need to check your facts.
I am with you on facts... except that I can check more than you.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 06:49:32 PM

was Capone convicted of murder  ;D ?

The point is that Capone was put in prison where murderers like him belong. By comparing Pussy Riot to Al Capone you apparently think they are criminals too.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 06:52:34 PM

you can protest whatever you want but you need to understand that there are certain places not suitable for certain protests... may I come with a gun in a school to stage a pro gun act ? may I ?

By your own admission, the Russian government used the "technicality" of playing in a church to convict Pussy Riot. The real reason was the fact of the protest itself that they sought to crush, just as the Capone's conviction for tax evasion was an excuse to put away a murderer. Your point doesn't make a lot of sense. The reality is if you protest in Russia, the government will invent some pretext to silence you, just as they've silenced so many critics.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 16, 2013, 07:25:09 PM
I see that "your momma is so totalitarian..." style of debate is going to get us real far ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 16, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
I see that "your momma is so totalitarian..." style of debate is going to get us real far ;D

Maybe we should switch to first cousins.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 16, 2013, 09:49:57 PM
Oh, and the relevance of the 2000 vote tally in Florida is?

You were highlighting democracy so I thought I'd throw in some of the better examples of what's happening to democracy in the USA..

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And what do you suppose the fate of a journalist who broke such a story in Russia or China would be?

Probably similar to what the US Government will do to Snowden if he returns to the USA...

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You really do have an attention span problem. Again, your response is completely off-topic.

Hey, you were the one that wanted to talk about democracy and free speech...

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Snowden's actions went far beyond free speech. He willfully broke the secrecy oath he signed and tried to damage the U.S.

If he also swore an oath to protect the constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, which do you suppose wins?
The one for secrecy or the one to protect the constitution?

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Sure. Right. That's why the first thing he does is run to that bastion of freedom and tolerance called China and then Russia.

Don't you think that is ironic that a whistleblower is afraid of justice in the country that makes out to be the foremost bastion of democracy, justice, freedom of speech, etc?

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Give me a break. The NSA looking at your international phone records is not an attack on anyone's "rights and freedoms". Assuming, for the moment, that you're even an American, tell us what rights and freedoms have been taken away from you?

It is against the 4th amendment to the constitution:
Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

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What happens if you get a brain?

Thank you for your kind words.

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You wouldn't have to ask that question if you had even a cursory understanding of what Prism, or the NSA, is here to do.

Now there's a truly idiotic question for you.

I assumed wrong. You're not an American. And now that you've inadvertently tipped your hand, it's clear that you have no vested interest in my country and therefore no moral authority in this discussion.

But to continue our previous thread...you are completely, thoroughly clueless. As a binary thinker, I wouldn't expect you to understand the value of preventing even one attack. Your insistence of an all or nothing justification for a program like Prism betrays an adolescent and self-centered perspective. If Prism prevented even one attack it would be well worth it. But as a matter of fact, through the efforts of the U.S. intelligence services, hundreds of attacks have already been thwarted. But I would gladly trade all the metadata on the planet to save just one life.

Well without any solid evidence to evaluate your claims with, what you're saying is worthless. If you want to continue to make accusations and throw out opinions, fine, but they're really not very interesting unless they're substantiated with external evidence being presented alongside. Please feel free to repeat the above when you've got some sources that you can cite.

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If there is, you've made no case for it whatsoever. You've offered no evidence, only the kind of moronic platitudes that one finds on paranoia factories like 4chan.

Thank you for your kind words.

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And how do you plan to prove that PRISM would have been the only thing that could have saved their lives?
Only thing? You haven't been paying attention.

You're the one complaining that Snowden has compromised PRISM and thus the ability of the USA to find potential terrorists. So I'm putting it to you, how do you prove that PRISM is the vital link in the chain and not something else?

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Again, you display a total ignorance of what Prism does. If you don't have even the most basic facts there's no point of discussing the matter with you further. Come back when you've done your homework, kid.

Well to be honest, I suspect that nearly everyone here is ignorant when it comes to PRISM as we're not allowed to know what it is in detail (thanks NSA.) So if you do then obviously you're on the inside (which would explain a lot actually) and thus part of the problem.

It is interesting the way in which you've tried to go all out and attack me rather than attack the topic. Usually this is taken as another indicator of the writer being someone that is out to distract attention away from the subject at hand and the only people that want to do that work for the government. People like that pop up in forums all over the Internet.

Attacking me and/or other posters with personal insults, etc, does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. I would suggest that if you want to have a meaningful debate then keep it to things like journalists being murdered, people going to prison for speaking their mind, people being outcast from their countries, etc. That makes for a vastly more interesting discussion than having to read through "you're a [email protected]*$!".
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 16, 2013, 10:28:21 PM
That only shows how little you understand about my country or its relationship with China.

Hey, Doug E Fresh: Have you ever been wrong about anything...ever....in your entire life?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 16, 2013, 11:11:31 PM
I see that "your momma is so totalitarian..." style of debate is going to get us real far ;D

Slobodan, haven't you noticed that it is always those with a weak case to argue that resort to insults, name calling, etc?

People who have substance and merit to their argument don't need to bother making personal threats, etc :)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 17, 2013, 01:14:32 AM
You were highlighting democracy so I thought I'd throw in some of the better examples of what's happening to democracy in the USA..
You have no idea what's happening in the U.S., as your continued display of ignorance demonstrates.

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Probably similar to what the US Government will do to Snowden if he returns to the USA...
I have little doubt that Snowden will eventually be called to account for his crime. Some would have him charged with treason, which carries the death penalty. I don't happen to think he did what he did in concert with a foreign enemy. So perhaps 20 years behind bars would be sufficient. No matter what, we'll get him. It's only a matter of time.

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Hey, you were the one that wanted to talk about democracy and free speech...
No in fact you were the one who brought those up.

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If he also swore an oath to protect the constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, which do you suppose wins?
The one for secrecy or the one to protect the constitution?

In your country I suppose you get to pick which of the oaths you've made should be taken seriously.

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Don't you think that is ironic that a whistleblower is afraid of justice in the country that makes out to be the foremost bastion of democracy, justice, freedom of speech, etc?

Irony has nothing to do with it. He's already admitted committing a felony. He ran away because he's far too much of a coward to accept the consequences of his own actions.

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It is against the 4th amendment to the constitution:
Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)
And since when is your phone bill privileged information? Or perhaps it is in your country, where ever that is.

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Thank you for your kind words.

If the shoe fits...

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Well without any solid evidence to evaluate your claims with, what you're saying is worthless. If you want to continue to make accusations and throw out opinions, fine, but they're really not very interesting unless they're substantiated with external evidence being presented alongside. Please feel free to repeat the above when you've got some sources that you can cite.

I'm not the one who's required to provide evidence since I'm not the one making accusations about my government. But you continue to accuse with nothing to back it up.

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Thank you for your kind words.

The shoe still fits.

Quote
You're the one complaining that Snowden has compromised PRISM and thus the ability of the USA to find potential terrorists. So I'm putting it to you, how do you prove that PRISM is the vital link in the chain and not something else?
Unlike you, I'm not willing to forgive putting American lives in danger because some spineless creep has blown the cover on a secret NSA program. It was important enough for Congress to authorize it. It was important enough for the NSA to require Snowden to sign an oath to protect its secrecy.

I think Putin said it best:

"If he (Snowden) wants to go somewhere and there are those who would take him, he is welcome to do that," Putin said. "If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: he must stop his activities aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, no matter how strange it may sound on my lips."

If even an autocrat like Putin thinks that Snowden is out to hurt America I think it's safe to say that hurting America is Snowden's real mission.

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Well to be honest, I suspect that nearly everyone here is ignorant when it comes to PRISM as we're not allowed to know what it is in detail (thanks NSA.) So if you do then obviously you're on the inside (which would explain a lot actually) and thus part of the problem.

There is none so blind as he who will not see the truth (that means you). Your premise from the beginning has been: if it's the NSA it must be evil. If it's the American government it must be evil. Your prejudices and paranoia have already tried and convicted my country in absentia.

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It is interesting the way in which you've tried to go all out and attack me rather than attack the topic. Usually this is taken as another indicator of the writer being someone that is out to distract attention away from the subject at hand and the only people that want to do that work for the government. People like that pop up in forums all over the Internet.

You're talking about yourself. You're the one who's tried to insert irrelevant subjects in an attempt to distract from the fact that your critique of Prism is spurious. You bring up the Florida vote count in 2000. You bring up voter ID laws. You cite articles as evidence that contain no evidence. You're all over the place.

Quote
Attacking me and/or other posters with personal insults, etc, does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. I would suggest that if you want to have a meaningful debate then keep it to things like journalists being murdered, people going to prison for speaking their mind, people being outcast from their countries, etc. That makes for a vastly more interesting discussion than having to read through "you're a [email protected]*$!".

That's rich coming from you--the one who offers no proof of anything. The one who sanctimoniously suggests that anyone who disagrees with you ought to go live in China. The one who would allow terrorists to attack my country just so you can keep the information contained in your phone bill secret. Yes, perhaps I do get a little hot under the collar when confronted by someone with as little regard for human life as yourself, but there it is.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: nemo295 on July 17, 2013, 01:31:54 AM
Hey, Doug E Fresh: Have you ever been wrong about anything...ever....in your entire life?

Eager to get another thread shut down are you?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 17, 2013, 03:24:34 AM
No in fact you were the one who brought those up.

No, it was you, see here:
msg 196 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79991.msg648076#msg648076)
... where you mention Nicaragua, etc.

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Quote
If he also swore an oath to protect the constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, which do you suppose wins?
The one for secrecy or the one to protect the constitution?
In your country I suppose you get to pick which of the oaths you've made should be taken seriously.

Please answer my question(s).

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And since when is your phone bill privileged information? Or perhaps it is in your country, where ever that is.


Your car location is just metadata, why don't you tell the NSA where you are every time you park your car (at the start and end of every journey), just in case it happens to coincide with known locations where people suspected of terrorism or aiding and abetting them are?

That it is phone bill related is beside the point.

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I'm not the one who's required to provide evidence since I'm not the one making accusations about my government. But you continue to accuse with nothing to back it up.

Unlike you, I'm not willing to forgive putting American lives in danger because some spineless creep has blown the cover on a secret NSA program. It was important enough for Congress to authorize it. It was important enough for the NSA to require Snowden to sign an oath to protect its secrecy.

It is people like you who will end up killing the USA and everything that it stands for.

But maybe it doesn't matter. Every time freedoms and privacy is lost just a little bit, that is a victory for the terrorists because it means another part of what the USA stood for has died. In that sense the damage to the USA from 9/11 is far more extensive than whatever number of people died or what the economic damage is/was: it has killed various freedoms and privacy here in the USA and people like you don't care.

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I think Putin said it best:

"If he (Snowden) wants to go somewhere and there are those who would take him, he is welcome to do that," Putin said. "If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: he must stop his activities aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, no matter how strange it may sound on my lips."

If even an autocrat like Putin thinks that Snowden is out to hurt America I think it's safe to say that hurting America is Snowden's real mission.

That's one way to look at it. Another is that Putin values building the relationship between Russia and the USA over what Snowden has to say. There's nothing wrong with that as Putin is president and thus entitled to that position. Putin is playing a completely different game than is Snowden and I expect that Russia will be looking for quid-pro-quo in the future from the USA too. I have no qualms with that any of that.

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You're talking about yourself. You're the one who's tried to insert irrelevant subjects in an attempt to distract from the fact that your critique of Prism is spurious. You bring up the Florida vote count in 2000. You bring up voter ID laws. You cite articles as evidence that contain no evidence. You're all over the place.

Well you decided to hold up the USA as the paragon of democracy and freedom and drew into question other countries. I just held up the mirror for you so that you could see what is happening in the USA and that it is no longer the model country that it used to be.

Quote
That's rich coming from you--the one who offers no proof of anything.

No, you just don't want to accept the evidence that has been presented.
Clapper testified to Congress about the NSA and then said he misled Congress. I provided links to web articles about this but you dismissed them. Maybe I should provide you with this link:

Students put NSA recruiters in the hot seat (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/05/national-security-agency-recruitment-drive)

I've yet to see you provide a single link to back up anything you've claimed or said.

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The one who sanctimoniously suggests that anyone who disagrees with you ought to go live in China. The one who would allow terrorists to attack my country just so you can keep the information contained in your phone bill secret. Yes, perhaps I do get a little hot under the collar when confronted by someone with as little regard for human life as yourself, but there it is.

People die, every day. If the US government spent as much money on making its roads safe as it has in Iraq/Afghanistan then thousands more lives would be saved than from those invasions.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 17, 2013, 04:59:42 AM
The inevitable results of indoctrination, class-hatred, social inferiority complexes and personal identity doubts writ large.

How sad that nothing changes within the human soul. Maybe we should have remained in the sea.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 17, 2013, 08:42:45 AM
Eager to get another thread shut down are you?

No, not eager to get this precious thread shut down. The world needs this thread and its treasure trove of 'insightful analysis'.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 17, 2013, 09:53:46 AM
Just a few takeaways summarizing the discussion so far:

- There is valid concern that weakening Prism or getting rid of it may result in terrorist acts not being stopped with the tragic consequence of civil casualties,
- This is definitely not a US vs the rest of the world kind of debate. We have clear evidence that some key European countries including France and Germany were aligned with the NSA as far as Prism is concerned,
- Speaking about the US, there is beyond reasonable doubt that the official instances in charge of monitoring the actual operations of Prism had not been fully disclosed on the exact scope of Prism. This is the key issue since it raises the question of democratic control... who is running the show if citizens elected representatives are not?

My personal view is that we need some kind of firewall, but that citizens control can never be by-passed if we want to continue living in democracies. The day we do not live in a true democracy any longer, the terrorists have won. I feel we have crossed the line already.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 17, 2013, 09:56:26 AM
By your own admission, the Russian government used the "technicality" of playing in a church to convict Pussy Riot.

yes, and they learned that from the greatest western democracies  ;D ... don't you see a progress, dear ? it was a technicality, but according to the letter of the law... shocking, huh ? were you really hoping for a warrantless arrest and execution by a firing squad ... wake up.

the government will invent some pretext to silence you

absolutely - everything was learned from you, guys... and yet you are not happy  :D ... shall be proud of the pupils...

PS: what I truly admire is the credit history stuff... it works much better than any communist party organization citations on record to keep people in line...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 17, 2013, 10:00:08 AM
Ah, you guys!

Parsing each other's posts... just like NSA your telephone bills (and more) ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 17, 2013, 10:03:37 AM
My personal view is that we need some kind of firewall, but that citizens control can never be by-passed if we want to continue living in democracies.

Excellent summation, Bernard.

But regarding the firewall, what would you call an elected president and congress if not "citizens' control?"
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 17, 2013, 10:08:19 AM
The point is that Capone was put in prison where murderers like him belong. By comparing Pussy Riot to Al Capone you apparently think they are criminals too.
the point was that both convictions were legally correct... which for Russia is a progress (from what was before)... as for the convicted people - I noted (and you pretend that I did not), I do not mind punks mocking whoever they want outside of the church... I do like punks being convicted for doing this in church and using the faith figures ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Mary ) in the process according to the letter of law of that particular country.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 17, 2013, 10:15:08 AM
But regarding the firewall, what would you call an elected president and congress if not "citizens' control?"
that firewall needs some serious patching.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 17, 2013, 10:53:42 AM
Revealing sentiment, Vlad. It tells me a lot about you, but it doesn't answer the question.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 17, 2013, 11:08:14 AM
... But regarding the firewall, what would you call an elected president and congress if not "citizens' control?"

Just drop that apostrophe, Russ, and I would agree ;)

As for presidents and congresses... you mean presidents like Nixon (nicknamed Tricky Dicky for a reason) and recent congresses that have lower ratings than Snooky?

Come on, Russ, when it comes to government in general, you are usually the first to label it incompetent, no?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 17, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
You bet your sweet bippy I find it incompetent, Slobodan. But I also realize it was elected in the usual way and in accordance with the Constitution (with a couple questionable exceptions where the count was uncomfortably close). What that means to me is that the citizens have exercised "citizens' control," and that's what Vlad was after.

I really need to add that I think the citizens doing the controlling are out of their minds, but nothing in the Constitution says you have to be either intelligent or informed to vote.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 17, 2013, 06:48:40 PM
Just a few takeaways summarizing the discussion so far:

- There is valid concern that weakening Prism or getting rid of it may result in terrorist acts not being stopped with the tragic consequence of civil casualties,

So in the 1980s and 1990s when PRISM didn't exist, how many terrorist acts were there on US soil?

Quote
- Speaking about the US, there is beyond reasonable doubt that the official instances in charge of monitoring the actual operations of Prism had not been fully disclosed on the exact scope of Prism. This is the key issue since it raises the question of democratic control... who is running the show if citizens elected representatives are not?

The government bureaucracy/administration.

This is why a change in elected president (Bush -> Obama) makes almost no difference on a whole range of topics. It points to the fact that the people who are elected are no longer really in control, they're just figureheads and that it is the institution of government that is in control. How do you fix that?

There's also the possibility that it is the people who donate large amounts of money to political parties/campaigns that have a rather large influence on politics and what makes it into law. An easy example of this is all of the attempts to get really nasty copyright law into government - for example to make copyright infringement a felony rather than a civil issue - at the behest of bodies like the RIAA/MPAA. The solution there is to remove or limit the amount of money that gets into politics.

Get The Money Out Of Politics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2B_HgyKNU)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 17, 2013, 07:56:33 PM
It would seem that we are not the only ones concerned by NSA's lack of transparency.

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/17/apple-to-team-up-with-tech-companies-to-ask-for-greater-nsa-transparency/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 17, 2013, 08:16:03 PM
not advocating anything necessarily,
but all the hacks, farmerfabs, and PITAsses ain't gong along for all the $ spent,
anyone with encrypted internet and a piece of plexi can thwart most intel anyway,
physical limitations aren't a challenge, and technical ones are hacked within 24 hours usually.
So for all the idiots out there unable to harden their security to that level,
well good,
they are too stupid to be the assholes that blow up women and children anyway,
only governments and low tech can compete,
so now this is what we pay to do,
billions and billions,
we have a snitch or camera at so many locations that crime seems to have gone down,
but we have all out wars in the ghetto,
How?
How is it that even to this day there is no mention of the vast amounts of COCAINE the contras, vis a vis,CIA
smuggled into the US to begin with?
How is it that we can bust someone like http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vivien-lesnik-weisman/jason-hammond-arrested_b_3602102.html
but not one person went to jail over the Iraq lie?
How is it that we'll spend just inordinate amounts of money on jails and then groom people to fill them,
but to ask for childhood program funding you must first make allowances for the burgeoning prison industrial complex?
How is it that we'll argue if the idiot snowden is doing the right thing by exposing our govt for what it is and always has been?
Why are you all so scared of terrorists?
USA=#1 mindsuck nation
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 17, 2013, 08:23:32 PM
There's also the possibility that it is the people who donate large amounts of money to political parties/campaigns that have a rather large influence on politics and what makes it into law. An easy example of this is all of the attempts to get really nasty copyright law into government - for example to make copyright infringement a felony rather than a civil issue - at the behest of bodies like the RIAA/MPAA. The solution there is to remove or limit the amount of money that gets into politics.

Yep.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html

Even if the odds that this really happens are slim, who in his right mind wouldn't want to get rid of the possibility that this may happen? Besides the people who would be benefiting from this of course.

Making it illegal for corporations and lobbies to fund congressman and campaigns should be a total nobrainer, right?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ray on July 17, 2013, 09:29:29 PM
This is certainly an interesting discussion. Not being an American citizen, and not having even visited America, I'm not sure I should be commenting. However, I can't resist making some general points.

Regarding the undermining of the democratic process that the operation of Prism implies, I'm reminded of that famous dictum from Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Perhaps the problem is that the ideals of true Democracy are not practicable when our security is at risk, just as the ideals of true Christianity in many situations are not practicable and usually involve huge amounts of hypocrisy.

It has always seemed to me to be totally absurd to wage a war in order to defend fundamental Christian principles which include, "Thou shallt not kill", and "Love thine enemy".

It also seems absurd to me that a Christian country would recruit into the army men who had had a Christian upbringing, then teach such recruits to kill the enemy on command. It's not surprising there are so many cases of PTSD among combat soldiers.

Ideally, one would hope that being a Christian would exclude a person from being accepted as a recruit in the Armed Forces on the grounds that such a person would be expected to engage in activities during combat which would be in clear and direct conflict with the fundamentals of his Christian belief.

Of course, it's understood that such a recruitment process that excluded all Christians would fail to recruit a sufficient number of soldiers, and would also leave a loop-hole for nominal Christians, without any strong belief, to avoid military service.

In a similar way, perhaps the application of a true Democratic process with regard to a nation's security and economic interests, is not practicable.

Perhaps the fundamental reality is, we are all driven by animal instincts, and the primary concerns of such instincts are survival, dominance, power, territorial gains, and position-seeking within the hierarchy of a pecking order which all animal species seem to have.

The high ideals of a perfect democracy and the best principles of certain religions may be something to strive towards, but when crunch comes to crunch, those ideals tend to fly out of the window, and our survival instincts tend to dominate.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 18, 2013, 03:43:39 AM
Quote Ray.

This is certainly an interesting discussion. Not being an American citizen, and not having even visited America, I'm not sure I should be commenting. However, I can't resist making some general points.

Unquote

Ray you obviously haven't read the subject matter? I will give you a clue it is at the beginning of the thread. You can comment because the original subject was about being a hero or not. Unfortunately the thread has been hijacked into a debate about freedom of America. Some of the posters have the ability to dance on a pin head when it comes to debating anything but the subject. Again some personal comments have also appeared. So if you wish to get involved in that mire then good luck. :)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 18, 2013, 04:50:15 AM


Perhaps the fundamental reality is, we are all driven by animal instincts, and the primary concerns of such instincts are survival, dominance, power, territorial gains, and position-seeking within the hierarchy of a pecking order which all animal species seem to have.

The high ideals of a perfect democracy and the best principles of certain religions may be something to strive towards, but when crunch comes to crunch, those ideals tend to fly out of the window, and our survival instincts tend to dominate.



That, of course, is the basic law of life as we know it.

It's the reason why all of the bleeding-heart bullshit is bullshit: it flies in the face of reality as it has ever been. It can't and won't change. Ever. That perfect world of brotherly love: it is the same perennial topic that fills youthful conversation - when it isn't about the invention of sex - as it has always done; it's why such topics become so wearying to anyone with a mental age over twelve. Okay - thirteen, to stretch the point. We've only to realise that it doesn't even exist within a family. How can one dream of it sweeping the world? All, at some time or another, have been there, had the thought of perfect human harmony on Earth, and concluded that it's more productive to have a walk in the park instead.

The problem with it online is that the players usually don't know one another, can't make informed guesses about where the others grew up, what influenced their early years, their real expectations and possibilities in life and whether, in fact, it's all a word-game to them as they sit at the monitor with nothing much better to do with their time... then of course, enter the left-wing evangelists. Dear Lord save us from the impossible cant.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: kers on July 18, 2013, 09:19:12 AM
Ironically Snowden is forced to ask for asylum in a country that calls itself a democracy but does not allow any form of political opposition…

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/18/world/europe/russia-navalny-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 18, 2013, 09:33:56 AM
Ironically Snowden is forced to ask for asylum in a country that calls itself a democracy but does not allow any form of political opposition…

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/18/world/europe/russia-navalny-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

but did he steal or not ? in the greatest democracy politicians do steal - what do you expect from people there  ;D ... being in opposition ( = thiefs who lost the power struggle ) does not make you a saint by the mere fact of that ( but being aligned with a current gang of thiefs, Putin & Co, do lessen a chance to be convicted a lot indeed )...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 18, 2013, 10:35:13 AM
In your world, Rob, the intersection of left/right and right/wrong always seem to result in only one combination: left=wrong and right=right? ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 18, 2013, 11:29:19 AM
Former President of the USA, Jimmy Carter, comments that the USA is no longer a functional democracy and that Snowden's leaks are ultimately beneficial:

America has no functioning democracy (http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 18, 2013, 11:40:12 AM
Former President of the USA, Jimmy Carter, comments that the USA is no longer a functional democracy and that Snowden's leaks are ultimately beneficial:

America has no functioning democracy (http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/)


how it can be functional if the primary concern of 99% elected reps is to be re-elected and when they decide not to run they are in 99% cases not exactly in a prime state to push for something of value in their legislation body  ;D

we are in a state of legislative stupor.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 11:53:42 AM
The ReDistricting Game (http://www.redistrictinggame.org/)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 12:04:46 PM
Dear Lord save us from the impossible cant.

It seems you wish to benefit but not be burdened by Kant.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 12:05:00 PM
Former President of the USA, Jimmy Carter, comments that the USA is no longer a functional democracy and that Snowden's leaks are ultimately beneficial:

The man's been making ignorant remarks like this ever since his incompetence got him blown out of the presidency. Considering his record, why would anybody listen to him, much less quote him?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 18, 2013, 12:55:00 PM
The man's been making ignorant remarks like this ever since his incompetence got him blown out of the presidency. Considering his record, why would anybody listen to him, much less quote him?

Because every news outlet needs/wants a bump in ratings and/or ad revenues. He's got nothing to do with useful facts.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 01:04:13 PM
The man's been making ignorant remarks like this ever since his incompetence got him blown out of the presidency. Considering his record, why would anybody listen to him, much less quote him?

Presumably because like you they have an opinion on his record.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 02:18:55 PM
You don't really need an opinion. His record is his record. As Casey said, "You could look it up."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 02:38:47 PM
So you have no opinion about what material should be included or what sources should be included?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 18, 2013, 03:00:20 PM
In your world, Rob, the intersection of left/right and right/wrong always seem to result in only one combination: left=wrong and right=right? ;)


The intersection always results in disaster for one faction or the other; even coalitions fail in the end because they represent neither fish nor foul.

However, in this instance, there is no intersection because it's a clear-cut case of treachery towards the mother country or, if you prefer, the fatherland.

The reference to the left is forced upon me in this case - I assume you to alluded to my previous post? - because they are inevitably the ones marching down the avenue flying the red flag, regardless of the reason for the march. You could call a demonstration for more severe or even more liberal dog licences, and the faithful reds would come out with the banners. It's what they do. It's their raison d'être. All of the post-industrial lands have them in abundance. That's generally why they became post-industrial lands; a measure of red success, if you will.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 03:21:53 PM
So you have no opinion about what material should be included or what sources should be included?
The whole can of worms, Isaac. You haven't deigned to tell us how old you are, so from what you're saying I have to assume you're young enough that all you know about the Carter administration is what outfits like CNN, NBC, ABC, NPR  and the NYT tell you. I was there. I lived through that period. I don't have to guess how bad it was.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 18, 2013, 04:35:01 PM
I don't have to guess how bad it was.
Indeed... nothing to bomb I guess... did they pay less because of that  ;) ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 04:57:45 PM
I was there. I lived through that period.

Is it your opinion that your memories of your experiences, during that period, form the record by which President Carter should be judged?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 18, 2013, 05:13:37 PM
The man's been making ignorant remarks like this ever since his incompetence got him blown out of the presidency. Considering his record, why would anybody listen to him, much less quote him?

He's a former president of the USA, that's why.

Competency is a matter of perspective and some would argue that there have been those that have served since and that have served their two terms have been worse.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 05:24:02 PM
Let me guess. . . Maybe he hasn't finished his second term.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 05:24:52 PM
Is it your opinion that your memories of your experiences, during that period, form the record by which President Carter should be judged?

Sorry, Isaac. First you're going to have to tell me how old you are.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 18, 2013, 05:31:51 PM
Sorry, Isaac. First you're going to have to tell me how old you are.
I 'd assume, RSL, you shall not reference anything before WWII then... ever... if that is your position whether person shall live through something and remember in person how it was to write... and please no references to China, Russia, Syria, Iran, etc - you did not live there either...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
Is it your opinion that your memories of your experiences, during that period, form the record by which President Carter should be judged?
Sorry, Isaac. First you're going to have to tell me how old you are.

I suppose you don't wish to acknowledge that -- "I was there. I lived through that period. I don't have to guess how bad it was." -- makes you sole witness, judge and jury.

As Casey said, "You could look it up."

That isn't what you're doing.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 06:28:52 PM
That isn't what you're doing.

I was there, Isaac. I don't need to look it up. If you weren't there and you don't know the history YOU need to look it up.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 18, 2013, 07:02:58 PM
I 'd assume, RSL, you shall not reference anything before WWII then... ever... if that is your position whether person shall live through something and remember in person how it was to write... and please no references to China, Russia, Syria, Iran, etc - you did not live there either...

That's a good point.

We all rely on various third party information sources to make up our minds.

It used to be that people used to be divided in 2 groups: the well traveled ones who did go to places to check for themselves, and the others who didn't have the privileged to do so.

Now we tend to think that we know because the one newspaper we like says so...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 18, 2013, 07:08:39 PM
I was there, Isaac. I don't need to look it up. If you weren't there and you don't know the history YOU need to look it up.

You were there. Were you privy to all information? Are you blessed with perfect recall?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 18, 2013, 07:17:27 PM
... It used to be that people used to be divided in 2 groups: the well traveled ones who did go to places to check for themselves, and the others who didn't have the privileged to do so...

Like my music (god vs. bad, not classical vs. rock), I tend to group people into two groups too: smart vs. stupid (pardon the simplification). Even when well-traveled, stupid people tend to see what they want to see, in order to confirm their preexisting opinion. While smart people can draw smart conclusions even from third party sources. You know, like the black-box concept: you do not know what is going on inside, but if you know what comes in and what comes out, you can figure it out pretty well.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 18, 2013, 08:48:26 PM
I tend to group people into two groups too: smart vs. stupid (pardon the simplification). Even when well-traveled, stupid people tend to see what they want to see, in order to confirm their preexisting opinion. While smart people can draw smart conclusions even from third party sources.

Accept well traveled as a metaphore for curious and you may get my point better.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 18, 2013, 09:10:05 PM
You were there. Were you privy to all information? Are you blessed with perfect recall?

Please explain how that has anything at all to do with anything.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 19, 2013, 12:12:23 AM
....people tend to see what they want to see, in order to confirm their preexisting opinion.

I've been watching this thread for some time now, observing the lot of you simply stoking your own prejudices with selective 'facts' and bluster. "...A tale told by an idiot(s), all sound and fury, signifying nothing." I actually feel sorry for you all. God save me from a bitter, opinionated, empty old age.

Just the same, I read every word, like a passerby taking in the aftermath of a traffic accident.

Mezzzzzzzzzzzo.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ray on July 19, 2013, 12:25:18 AM
I've been watching this thread for some time now, observing the lot of you simply stoking your own prejudices with selective 'facts' and bluster. "...A tale told by an idiot(s), all sound and fury, signifying nothing." I actually feel sorry for you all. God save me from a bitter, opinionated, empty old age.

Just the same, I read every word, like a passerby taking in the aftermath of a traffic accident.

Mezzzzzzzzzzzo.



Sounds like you really want to join in the discussion in order to express your own bitter opinion.  ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 19, 2013, 12:43:15 AM
Sounds like you really want to join in the discussion in order to express your own bitter opinion.  ;)

If I did, I would. Fare thee well, Broccoli!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 19, 2013, 01:24:05 AM
You were there. Were you privy to all information? Are you blessed with perfect recall?
Please explain how that has anything at all to do with anything.

If you were not privy to all information then actually there will be information you need to look up.

If you are not blessed with perfect recall then you should look up information simply to verify your recollection.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 19, 2013, 04:35:51 AM
It seems you wish to benefit but not be burdened by Kant.


No; not Kant, not can't but cant.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: degrub on July 19, 2013, 06:53:23 AM
That's an oblique tilt, Rob. :D

Frank
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 19, 2013, 10:06:54 AM
For those protesting the NSA's innocence comes this latest relevation:

NSA warned to rein in surveillance as agency reveals even greater scope (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/17/nsa-surveillance-house-hearing)

"John C Inglis, the deputy director of the surveillance agency, told a member of the House judiciary committee that NSA analysts can perform "a second or third hop query" through its collections of telephone data and internet records in order to find connections to terrorist organizations. "

... so that "only phone metadata" thing is now starting to look a lot more creepier ...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 19, 2013, 11:08:47 AM
Please explain how that has anything at all to do with anything.

If you were not privy to all information then actually there will be information you need to look up.

If you are not blessed with perfect recall then you should look up information simply to verify your recollection.

My "recollection" isn't what's at issue, Isaac. The extent of your understanding is the point, and it's obvious you need to "look it up."

Here's a suggestion: Go shoot some pictures and stop wasting time trolling.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 19, 2013, 11:44:40 AM
Even when well-traveled, stupid people tend to see what they want to see
indeed - do not mix tourism and emigration/immigration.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 19, 2013, 12:29:44 PM
I've been watching this thread for some time now, observing the lot of you simply stoking your own prejudices with selective 'facts' and bluster. "...A tale told by an idiot(s), all sound and fury, signifying nothing." I actually feel sorry for you all. God save me from a bitter, opinionated, empty old age...

Ah, quoting me and Shakespeare in the same post! I am truly honored, Sir!

But seriously, if you quoted a part of my sentence as an example of "a bitter, opinionated, empty old age," it is worth noting that what you quoted was actually an example of a cognitive bias, known in psychology of decision making as a confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias). It happens to be a common human trait, not specifically related to old age.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 19, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
Ah, quoting me and Shakespeare in the same post! I am truly honored, Sir!

But seriously, if you quoted a part of my sentence as an example of "a bitter, opinionated, empty old age," it is worth noting that what you quoted was actually an example of a cognitive bias, known in psychology of decision making as a confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias). It happens to be a common human trait, not specifically related to old age.


10-4, Slobodan. Speaking of Shakespeare, Othello also fell victim to confirmation bias, come to think of it.

My general assessment as to some of the personalities indicated by the posts here....stands as is.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 19, 2013, 03:45:26 PM
No; not Kant, not can't but cant.
That's an oblique tilt, Rob.

No, just a refusal to acknowledge that one has taken benefit from others morality.

Previously --

Dear Lord save us from the impossible cant.

It seems you wish to benefit but not be burdened by Kant.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 19, 2013, 03:55:24 PM
My "recollection" isn't what's at issue, Isaac.

You've presented your memories of your experiences, during that period, as the record by which President Carter should be judged.

You've made your inherently limited knowledge and your inherently fallible recollections an issue.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 19, 2013, 04:10:04 PM
I tend to group people into two groups too: smart vs. stupid (pardon the simplification). Even when well-traveled, stupid people tend to see what they want to see, in order to confirm their preexisting opinion.

Oh Slobodan! We all tend to see what we expect to see ("a common human trait" as you say of confirmation bias).

A distinction that might be workable is - a willingness to accept that we may be wrong.


You may be interested in this magazine article "The Science of Why We Don't Believe Science" (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney).
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 19, 2013, 04:15:56 PM
You've presented your memories of your experiences, during that period, as the record by which President Carter should be judged.

You've made your inherently limited knowledge and your inherently fallible recollections an issue.

Go shoot some pictures and stop wasting time trolling.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Isaac on July 19, 2013, 04:21:21 PM
Go shoot some pictures and stop wasting time trolling.

You're right because you say you're right, and when challenged all you have left is name-calling.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 19, 2013, 05:29:09 PM
Please stop your internal bickering and focus on the topic at hand as it is probably one of the most important topics that we'll have to deal with in this decade. Please stop replying to trolls so that we can prevent this thread from turning into drivel.

Snowden's leaking of material has led to increased scrutiny of what the NSA does. The problem with this is that as the scrutiny digs deeper, the story thus far has not gotten any better - rather it seems to just get worse.

It is an organisation that for quite some time had its very existence denied - "No Such Agency" was one of the early nicknames for it.

The problem we face is that right now, we don't know how far down the rabbit hole at the NSA goes.

If the NSA is willing to tell us that it is not the end point targets of phone calls that they analyze but also people two hops removed then given the secretive nature of the place, what is it that they do that they're not willing to tell us but should?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 19, 2013, 06:13:49 PM
"That's an oblique tilt, Rob."

"No, just a refusal to acknowledge that one has taken benefit from others morality."

Previously --

It seems you wish to benefit but not be burdened by Kant.


Isaac, strange as it may seem to you, I actually believe myself to be one of the more moral people I have ever encountered. The only two I've met who outclassed me were my wife and her mother. I never, ever, caught either one in a lie. I find great difficulty with even the whitest of diplomatic fibs, so I studiously avoid situations that give rise to them. That's one reason I avoid direct responses in the Critique section much of the time.

As for benefitting from others' morality - I'm not sure where this is coming from - the humidity is very high; can you explain?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 24, 2013, 01:01:23 AM
If Snowden have of done nothing then this would never have come about:

House amendment NSA bulk surveillance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/23/house-amendment-nsa-bulk-surveillance)

So while there may be a few that want to brand Snowden as a criminal, quite clearly there is a substantial number of people that have taken notice of what he's presented the world with and are going forward with that to bring about change, vindicating his choice of action and thus making him a hero.

The above follows on from a Republican Senator standing up and warning people of the future:
Senator Wyden warns data collection under Patriot Act is limitless (http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/312929-wyden-warns-data-collection-under-patriot-act-is-limitless)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 24, 2013, 11:31:27 PM
Cooler heads prevail as the Amash amendment goes down to defeat.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/23/politics/nsa-phone-surveillance-limits/index.html?iref=allsearch
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: -Tom- on July 25, 2013, 06:03:17 PM
I don't care about none of the things Snowden said. The internet should be monitored and everyone behind the computer should be responsible for their actions.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: SunnyUK on July 26, 2013, 04:28:25 AM
I don't care about none of the things Snowden said. The internet should be monitored and everyone behind the computer should be responsible for their actions.

And of course an American ("Policing the world since 1943") agency would be best placed to do that.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 26, 2013, 04:50:30 AM
One wonders about how many people it would take to monitor the internet. If they found something that wasn't in their opinion "correct" and reported it would they be considered a whistle blower?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 26, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
I don't care about none of the things Snowden said. The internet should be monitored and everyone behind the computer should be responsible for their actions.

... including those in China who would be chastised for simply speaking out against the government?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 26, 2013, 09:43:16 AM
One wonders about how many people it would take to monitor the internet.

no worries, they can always outsource that to China  ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BobDavid on July 26, 2013, 10:32:18 AM
Duh. Spy versus spy has been going on since time immemorial. Whether en masse or 1:1, it is the nature of individuals and nations. What surprises me is how long it has taken so many people to wake up and smell the coffee regarding cyber and telecom semi-surveillance. The Union and the Rebels tapped into each others' telegraph lines. Since the advent of the telephone, wiretapping has been rampant. My only comment about that jerky Snowden kid is that Booz Allen Hamilton didn't do a better job of vetting him. I am actually more concerned about the way big corporations are tracking my movements on the internet. It's no coincidence that I am regularly bombarded with ads from companies I've done business with along with allied companies that I have never heard of. Big business is selling my demographic and psychographic profile to whomever wants to purchase it. If a 29-year-old kid is able to raise so much havoc, I am seriously concerned about the state of our nation's data collection and analysis capabilities.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 26, 2013, 01:50:19 PM
Booz Allen Hamilton didn't do a better job of vetting him
you know of course that all checks for that job were done by gov't agencies, not commercial gov't contractor itself...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 26, 2013, 05:06:03 PM
Snowden lied to Booz Allen Hamilton about his academic record.

http://www.hrcapitalist.com/2013/07/edward-snowden-no-degree-lied-on-his-resume-promptly-hired-for-122k-a-year.html
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 26, 2013, 05:25:09 PM
Interesting stuff, Pop, but Booz Allen doesn't do background investigations for high-level security clearances, and it doesn't approve or disapprove them. Considering what Snowden had access to, I'd guess he had to have had a top secret clearance plus a SIGINT compartmented clearance. Unless things have changed an awful lot in the couple decades since I got my clearances, Snowden filled out a multi-page form and gave all sorts of details about his birthplace, residences, schools, jobs, etc. Once the forms were in the hands of the government it took several months for the background investigation to complete. You'd find that agents had talked to your parents, teachers, neighbors, employers and friends. Since we now know a bit about his background it's incredible that he was able to get any sort of clearance, much less top-secret, SIGINT. Somebody in the government really screwed up, or else things have gotten a hell of a lot slacker in the past few years.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 26, 2013, 05:49:48 PM
Whoever vetted the guy did a lousy job.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BobDavid on July 26, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
Booz Allen noted discrepancies in his resume and still hired him. I'd say they are as much at fault as whatever gov't agency or agencies conducted his background check.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 26, 2013, 09:20:25 PM
I might agree if I knew more about the details, Bob, but in the end the government is the outfit that decides to whom it will give access to our secrets. Booz Allen made a big mistake by hiring a flake like Snowden, but without government clearance they couldn't have given him access to the stuff he stole. If somebody at Booz did that without Snowden having the proper clearance that person should be in the federal pen right now.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 26, 2013, 09:44:03 PM
Booz Allen noted discrepancies in his resume and still hired him. I'd say they are as much at fault as whatever gov't agency or agencies conducted his background check.
dear... Booz is just a glorified bodyshop trying to score a placement... the only difference between 'em and some Raj operating from a basement in VA is that Booz is higher up in a food chain and charges more.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 26, 2013, 11:00:15 PM
I am actually more concerned about the way big corporations are tracking my movements on the internet. It's no coincidence that I am regularly bombarded with ads from companies I've done business with along with allied companies that I have never heard of. Big business is selling my demographic and psychographic profile to whomever wants to purchase it. If a 29-year-old kid is able to raise so much havoc, I am seriously concerned about the state of our nation's data collection and analysis capabilities.

Let me put it another way for you.

You and the data that Google gains from you using the Internet is what it sells to companies that want to advertise.

You provide that information to companies such as Google free of charge.

You give your demographic away to Google and they sell it to other companies, including those that are clearing houses or gateway providers of information to the US government.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on July 26, 2013, 11:02:21 PM
Cooler heads prevail as the Amash amendment goes down to defeat.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/23/politics/nsa-phone-surveillance-limits/index.html?iref=allsearch

Not "cooler heads", "bought heads".

Lawmakers Who Upheld NSA Phone Spying Received Double the Defense Industry Cash (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 27, 2013, 03:44:14 AM
Whoever vetted the guy did a lousy job.

Someone could have " impeccable credentials" and be a loyal subject and sometime in the future become horrified by what occurs and then have a crisis of conscience?  :(  
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 27, 2013, 12:25:32 PM
Hypothetically, they could. But Snowden deliberately sought employment at Booz Allen so he could betray the NSA. He's been quite up front about that.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/24/4460028/edward-snowden-booz-allen-nsa-contractor-job
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 27, 2013, 12:36:48 PM
One of the more interesting theories about Snowden is that he may actually be doing all of this at the behest of the NSA. His "whistleblowing" may all be fake.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be-/10151559239607949
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 27, 2013, 12:40:37 PM
But Snowden deliberately sought employment at Booz Allen so he could betray the NSA.
True... his real  name is Ivan Petrov, who started his life as an embryo genetically engineered by GRU and implanted in m-m Snowden's womb by Soviets !
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 27, 2013, 01:07:57 PM
Someone could have " impeccable credentials" and be a loyal subject and sometime in the future become horrified by what occurs and then have a crisis of conscience?  :(  

How about an example of that, Stamper? From what I've read over a period of about 75 years the "crisis of conscience" is something that happens with communists who wake up -- like Whittaker Chambers. People like Alger Hiss and your Cambridge Five all were dedicated communists from the get-go. Snowden is no different.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 27, 2013, 01:19:25 PM
The Snowden mystery deepens. He used to post often in the Ars Technica forums, where he espoused some very surprising ideas.

In 2009 he proclaimed that leakers of government secrets "should be shot." He applauded the U.S. government for using high tech to spy on its citizens.

He supported John McCain in 2008, and advocated getting rid of Social Security. This was all while he was stationed in Geneva and working for the CIA.

Snowden is not who he appears to be on the surface.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-participated-in-online-chats-nsa-leaks/2462461/
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 27, 2013, 01:35:44 PM
... all were dedicated communists from the get-go...

This must be genetic then ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 27, 2013, 02:52:28 PM
Actually, I think you're right, Slobodan about the condition being genetic -- not the communism; the stupidity.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 27, 2013, 08:15:46 PM
... stupidity.

You mean on the part of Oxford/Cambridge who gave them degrees and British Intelligence who hired them? ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 27, 2013, 09:17:07 PM
Well, there's that too. But to be a socialist you have to be stupid enough to ignore history altogether. The socialist mind is convinced that if reality doesn't fit theory then reality has to be wrong; theory couldn't possibly be wrong. I see it all the time. That thinking has done incalculable damage for millennia and continues unfazed by perpetual failure.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 27, 2013, 09:42:06 PM
... The socialist mind is convinced that if reality doesn't fit theory then reality has to be wrong...

That would be Hegel, actually.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 27, 2013, 09:54:22 PM
Yes. Same difference.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 28, 2013, 03:04:13 AM
Well, there's that too. But to be a socialist you have to be stupid enough to ignore history altogether. The socialist mind is convinced that if reality doesn't fit theory then reality has to be wrong; theory couldn't possibly be wrong. I see it all the time. That thinking has done incalculable damage for millennia and continues unfazed by perpetual failure.

The most puzzling thing, to my eyes, is that the old attempt to polarize people against each other through artificial simplifaction of a multi-facetted reality into a childish opposition between one good and one bad still works.

Socialism doesn't mean anything or it means many different thing to different people. For most Europeans, it is mostly a common decision to set a lower limit to the acceptable living standart in developped countries by embedding charity in the system and making it compulsory to help others. It is nothing but the result of our Christian history that puts helping others at the core of our system of values.

But anyway, it is not black and white, it is a continum. There is no reason to link environmentalism to socialism, they only get together because of the desire to antagonise.

The real debate is else where. We call our countries democracies, but the huge bias put on the system by a tiny numbers of wealthy influencers is the real debate that never takes place. The real question is who decides of the course of action of our countries.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 28, 2013, 03:52:11 AM
How about an example of that, Stamper? From what I've read over a period of about 75 years the "crisis of conscience" is something that happens with communists who wake up -- like Whittaker Chambers. People like Alger Hiss and your Cambridge Five all were dedicated communists from the get-go. Snowden is no different.

Russ you obviously haven't read all of the thread. It would have been helpful if you had. I gave a very good example of that in Reply#9. The Israeli scientist jailed for telling the world about Israel's atomic secret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

BTW "Stupid Socialists" aren't the only people who get it wrong. Perhaps if you desist from the name calling you might get more respect for your views....then again I doubt it. :(
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 28, 2013, 05:47:48 AM
Hypothetically, they could. But Snowden deliberately sought employment at Booz Allen so he could betray the NSA. He's been quite up front about that.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/24/4460028/edward-snowden-booz-allen-nsa-contractor-job

I'm kind of doubtful about this story because the source is "The South China Post" - who's heard of that before today? I suppose if it is true, maybe he'll deny it or maybe he won't. But when you click through to the South China Post story, I landed on a page that included a feature story that is "LIFESTYLE Penis size does matter to women, say researchers." Ok, what reputable news source would bother linking a trashy story like that on their front page?

Snowden lied to Booz Allen Hamilton about his academic record.

http://www.hrcapitalist.com/2013/07/edward-snowden-no-degree-lied-on-his-resume-promptly-hired-for-122k-a-year.html

Again this uses the "South China Post" as the source for their material.

It would seem that someone is feeding that "newspaper" stories that they want the world to read about Snowden that are particularly damaging about him. To me it would appear that this website/newspaper is a propaganda piece for American interests because if it were Chinese, none of the stories that you see listed on its website would be there.

When I see stories in the New York Times or Washington Post that corroborate this with their own research then I'll be more inclined to accept it. But for now, it looks like trash from a trash mag.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 28, 2013, 05:55:30 AM
The Snowden mystery deepens. He used to post often in the Ars Technica forums, where he espoused some very surprising ideas.

In 2009 he proclaimed that leakers of government secrets "should be shot." He applauded the U.S. government for using high tech to spy on its citizens.

He supported John McCain in 2008, and advocated getting rid of Social Security. This was all while he was stationed in Geneva and working for the CIA.

Or rather, Snowden is a human being that is continuing to evolve and learn about the world around him and he's not a person that has been cast in an iron mold from when they were a teenager.

All that the Ars Technica posts reveal is that is who he was then. Who he is now is different. Believe it or not, over time people can change. Maybe he's paid a lot of attention to what Manning did and has thought long and hard about what he could do to find and expose the US government overstepping. Or maybe he saw or experienced something else that had a profound affect on him. Who can say?

All we know is that is then and this is now.

Quote
Snowden is not who he appears to be on the surface.

Or rather he's a real human being, not just a drone, that continues to take in what he sees in the world around him, evaluates it for himself and makes his own independent decisions. For some people that only ever vote for one political party, only ever buy one brand of bread, etc, this might be a bit of a shock (that people can change/evolve.)

If only there were more people like him.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 28, 2013, 10:43:33 AM
Russ you obviously haven't read all of the thread. It would have been helpful if you had. I gave a very good example of that in Reply#9. The Israeli scientist jailed for telling the world about Israel's atomic secret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

BTW "Stupid Socialists" aren't the only people who get it wrong. Perhaps if you desist from the name calling you might get more respect for your views....then again I doubt it. :(

Hi Stamper, The only people who could be insulted by my "name calling" would be socialists. If you're one, feel free.

Oh, and of course the Israelis didn't want the world, and especially the Muslim countries around them, to know they have nukes.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 28, 2013, 12:41:05 PM
The most puzzling thing, to my eyes, is that the old attempt to polarize people against each other through artificial simplifaction of a multi-facetted reality into a childish opposition between one good and one bad still works...

+1

Quote
... It is nothing but the result of our Christian history that puts helping others at the core of our system of values...

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 28, 2013, 07:26:57 PM
+1

Yep.

Nothing new under the sun. The resistance to socialism is in essence a resistance to the most fundamental of all Christian values, which is generosity.

But again, this is not the main debate. The main debate should be that of what we call a democracy. Wherever you stand along the continuous scales from left to right along the many complex axis defining our human activities, you must be in favor of truly giving the power to the citizens to decide what kind of society they want to live  in.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 28, 2013, 08:52:34 PM
SNOWDEN: these are the same people who blew the whole “we could listen to osama’s cell phone” thing the same people who screwed us on wiretapping over and over and over again [sic] Thank god they’re going out of business.

User19: the NYT?

SNOWDEN: Hopefully they’ll finally go bankrupt this year.yeah.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/06/have-we-all-been-fooled-by-edward-snowden/
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 28, 2013, 09:49:00 PM
There are many people that seem to want to argue "but everyone knew that the NSA had been doing this, nobody needed Snowden to tell us."

Not quite.

Before this we didn't have any confirmation of what was going on and those that talked about such government spying were often joked about as needing tin-foil hats.

Whilst we may have suspected that the US government was trampling people's rights and freedom's everywhere, it wasn't until Manning and now Snowden that we've had solid evidence of it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 28, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
The other question that should be being asked here is "Is the US government acting with integrity?"

Obama campaigned on a platform that included protecting whistle-blowers so as expose government corruption and largess. The Whitehouse has since updated its position to no longer advocate whistleblowing:

Obama promise to protect whistleblowers disappears (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130726/01200123954/obama-promise-to-protect-whistleblowers-just-disappeared-changegov.shtml)

... how do you associate them with any amount of credibility?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 28, 2013, 10:36:46 PM
Snowden isn't a disillusioned NSA employee. He's not a patriot acting out of a heightened sense of moral outrage. He isn't even a real whistleblower. He is, in fact, still working for the CIA, his "former" employer.

Anyone who takes Edward Snowden at face value is a fool and a patsy; they're playing into a very clever disinformation program.

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/edward-snowden-the-manchurian-candidate/49049
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero? Does not matter.
Post by: dreed on July 29, 2013, 12:21:25 AM
Another link to a rubbish story on a 3rd rate websites.

The whole question over who or what Edward Snowden is or isn't is a distraction from the material being released.

It is an attempt to "Shoot the messenger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger)".
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 29, 2013, 04:06:05 AM

Oh, and of course the Israelis didn't want the world, and especially the Muslim countries around them, to know they have nukes.


Russ you may have fought in 3 wars but you don't seem to have any knowledge about deterrence. The main idea of having nukes is to let your noisy neighbours know you have them in the vain hope they won't attack you. Does deterrence work? The jury's out on that one. I bet if that Israeli scientist had been working for Iran and did the same thing then he would have no doubt have been a hero in Washington. Then again dumb right wingers probably wouldn't see the contradiction?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 29, 2013, 05:34:27 AM
Russ you may have fought in 3 wars but you don't seem to have any knowledge about deterrence.

1. The main idea of having nukes is to let your noisy neighbours know you have them in the vain hope they won't attack you.

2. Does deterrence work? The jury's out on that one.

3. I bet if that Israeli scientist had been working for Iran and did the same thing then he would have no doubt have been a hero in Washington

4. Then again dumb right wingers probably wouldn't see the contradiction




1. Which one has been attacked, other than by irresponsible terrorists answerable to no-one but themselves? I can't presently think of any legal government taking that aggressive route.

2. So far, it does; why do you think the jury out?

3. Amazing confusion.

4. True; dumb people never see anything much, regardless of their natural political leanings.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 29, 2013, 06:44:00 AM
1 Argentina attacking the UK. US & UK attacking Iraq.  The last example they attacked Iraq and told the world Iraq had nukes. Either George Bush was a liar or the intelligence service was amazingly incompetent?

2 Most countries in the world don't have them or want them.

3 What confuses you?

4 A confession?
 
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 07:28:34 AM
Russ you may have fought in 3 wars but you don't seem to have any knowledge about deterrence. The main idea of having nukes is to let your noisy neighbours know you have them in the vain hope they won't attack you. Does deterrence work? The jury's out on that one. I bet if that Israeli scientist had been working for Iran and did the same thing then he would have no doubt have been a hero in Washington. Then again dumb right wingers probably wouldn't see the contradiction?

Have you always had this much trouble recognizing sarcasm?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 29, 2013, 07:49:22 AM
Russ is that sarcasm? You learn something new every day! Now how about an "honest" answer depicting how you really feel without dodging the issue and introducing red herrings which you have been doing in this thread - and others - and then the forum members will really begin to understand you. It is rather ironic that you often ask posters if they have read the thread from the beginning and then spectacularly fail to do so yourself.  ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 09:40:56 AM
What, exactly, do you think I missed? There's so much BS in this thread it's hard to keep track.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 29, 2013, 10:21:34 AM
Quite frankly I think you deliberately missed the subject matter - and others have stated this - to steer it into an area that you could take the moral high ground - patriotism - that you are more comfortable with.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 11:21:05 AM
Snowden is a distraction. The Prism Project is a tempest in a teapot. Your phone metadata has never been private. Your phone calls have never been private. There are thousands of people who work for the big corporation that sells you your phone service who can look at your phone bill anytime they want. They can listen in on your phone calls anytime they want.

A friend of mine once disputed being billed for an international phone call. She said she never made the call, so the phone company customer service representative pushed a button and played a recording of her phone call back to her, on the spot.

Now suddenly, when these corporations hand over a list of your phone calls to the NSA the sky is falling? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 12:17:14 PM
Quite frankly I think you deliberately missed the subject matter - and others have stated this - to steer it into an area that you could take the moral high ground - patriotism - that you are more comfortable with.

In other words, you can't answer the question.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 01:52:07 PM
"I should be out shooting instead of wasting my time in some dumb forum."

By all means. And wasting our time.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on July 29, 2013, 03:43:13 PM
1 Argentina attacking the UK. US & UK attacking Iraq.  The last example they attacked Iraq and told the world Iraq had nukes. Either George Bush was a liar or the intelligence service was amazingly incompetent?

2 Most countries in the world don't have them or want them.

3 What confuses you?

4 A confession?
 



1. Argentina attacking the UK? No, they didn’t think they were doing that: they thought they could just walk into distant isles and take them over, no attempts being expected to stand firm and retaliate. And you know what – had they tried it in any regime but Thatcher’s they’d probably have got away with it. They assumed they were dealing with ‘just a woman’ but in reality, they had no idea they were dealing with someone with strong principles and a great deal of pluck, and huge pride in her country. Whether any other leader would have had the balls I can’t say; I rather think not: the easy capitulation might have been the order of the day.

Bush & Blair attacking Iraq. Classic case of stupidity because the idea of forcing ‘democracy’ onto peoples with vastly different cultural values to our own can’t work. Indeed, it is only under totalitarian rule (dictators) that those countries hang together as units, mainly out of fear of what being without a ‘strong man’ will deliver unto them. Just observe the rest of the Arab Spring situations. Not one has fared better since its own particular Big Daddy was slain or deposed.

2. That you are able to speak for what ‘most countries in the world’ do or do not want might strike some of them as strange.
 
3. What confused me? I quote you:

“3. I bet if that Israeli scientist had been working for Iran and did the same thing then he would have no doubt have been a hero in Washington”

What amazed me was that you could hold so confused a concept in your mind.

4. A ‘confession’? No, an observation about dumb people of any political conviction, as much in your crowd as in mine.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 04:03:22 PM
The last example they attacked Iraq and told the world Iraq had nukes. Either George Bush was a liar or the intelligence service was amazingly incompetent?

Stamper, I don't know where you're getting this kind of crap, but it's well known that every intelligence agency in the free world was convinced Saddam had WMD. His own generals thought he had WMD and would use them.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 04:19:52 PM
"I should be out shooting instead of wasting my time in some dumb forum."

By all means. And wasting our time.

It's all you. No one can waste your time for you. If you don't like what someone is posting, don't read it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 04:20:57 PM
... it's well known that every intelligence agency in the free world was convinced...

So much for the quality of your intelligence gathering. If only your could check Saddam's phone bill! ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 04:39:55 PM
It's all you. No one can waste your time for you. If you don't like what someone is posting, don't read it.

This must be the most reasonable post you've made so far!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 05:00:53 PM
This must be the most reasonable post you've made so far!

There are three rules about internet forums I live by:

• Nothing involving opinions matters to anyone but yourself.

• People will cling to their preconceived beliefs of how the world works even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

• Everyone thinks the first two rules don't apply to them.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 29, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
Slobodan,

Over the past few days resistance to a posting temptation has been overcome.  I'd like to see your prodigious analytical prowess applied to a comparison of the NSA/Snowden data gathering disclosures, to the that of SAP-AG.  Here is a company that has networked, quite literally, more than 50% of the enterprise of the world and gathers telecommunications billing, inventory, acquisition, financial data, right down to ariable garden acreage to headquarters, surprisingly, or perhaps unsuprisingly, in Israel.  Check it out.  SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial.

Ken Richmond
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 29, 2013, 05:07:56 PM
BTW, Where's Jeff Schewe?,  SAP-AG is also hooked up with Adobe Connect.   SAP has grown nearly 400% since 2002 and employs 65K.  More than NSA.

Ken Richmond
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 29, 2013, 05:10:05 PM
SAP-AG... headquarters, surprisingly, or perhaps unsuprisingly, in Israel.  


"...About SAP AG

Headquartered in Walldorf, Germany..."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 05:13:38 PM
Over the past few days resistance to a posting temptation has been overcome.  I'd like to see your prodigious analytical prowess applied to a comparison of the NSA/Snowden data gathering disclosures, to the that of SAP-AG.  Here is a company that has networked, quite literally, more than 50% of the enterprise of the world and gathers telecommunications billing, inventory, acquisition, financial data, right down to ariable garden acreage to headquarters, surprisingly, or perhaps unsuprisingly, in Israel.  Check it out.  SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial.


Oracle is in the same business and almost twice the size of SAP-AG. If SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial, then Oracle makes them look like ants. Traditional notions of privacy, as applied to digital communications, are meaningless in the 21st century.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 29, 2013, 05:14:46 PM
but it's well known that every intelligence agency in the free world was convinced Saddam had WMD.
only if you define every intelligence agency in the free world as a few people who were not willing to stand up vs some dumb neocons, then yes.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 05:17:25 PM
So much for the quality of your intelligence gathering. If only your could check Saddam's phone bill! ;)

Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that requires "humint," in other words, people on the spot. Communications traffic analysis won't cut it. Has it occurred to you that if Saddam's generals thought he had WMD, spies on the spot might think so too?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 05:23:05 PM
only if you define every intelligence agency in the free world as a few people who were not willing to stand up vs some dumb neocons, then yes.

? Haven't the foggiest what this means, Vlad.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 29, 2013, 05:58:54 PM
"Research Headquarters and Lab in Israel, Vlad.

Thanks,

Ken Richmond
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 06:09:30 PM
... A friend of mine once disputed being billed for an international phone call. She said she never made the call, so the phone company customer service representative pushed a button and played a recording of her phone call back to her, on the spot.

Now suddenly, when these corporations hand over a list of your phone calls to the NSA the sky is falling? I don't think so.

Two two wrongs do not make one right.

Despite a strong distaste for the tone and content of your posts so far, I'd be willing to continue debating this topic with you if you could supply a shred of evidence (other than hearsay) about recording of international (or any other) calls by telephone companies. I mean, even NSA does not go that far to admit actually recording calls. I can only imagine the technical difficulties (outside the NSA budget) to record gazillion of simultaneous phone calls as a routine matter. Not to mention the legality of call recording without one's consent.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 06:17:35 PM
Two two wrongs do not make one right.

Despite a strong distaste for the tone and content of your posts so far, I'd be willing to continue debating this topic with you if you could supply a shred of evidence (other than hearsay) about recording of international (or any other) calls by telephone companies. I mean, even NSA does not go that far to admit actually recording calls. I can only imagine the technical difficulties (outside the NSA budget) to record gazillion of simultaneous phone calls as a routine matter. Not to mention the legality of call recording without one's consent.

If we're going to insist on eliminating anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases from this forum we might as well erase it entirely.

But do you honestly believe that your phone company respects your privacy?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 06:26:31 PM
Two two wrongs do not make one right.

Despite a strong distaste for the tone and content of your posts so far, I'd be willing to continue debating this topic with you if you could supply a shred of evidence (other than hearsay) about recording of international (or any other) calls by telephone companies. I mean, even NSA does not go that far to admit actually recording calls. I can only imagine the technical difficulties (outside the NSA budget) to record gazillion of simultaneous phone calls as a routine matter. Not to mention the legality of call recording without one's consent.

Exactly, Slobodan. The technical difficulties, including the amount of storage required, would be absurd. Furthermore, unless you have enough people (probably millions) to listen to all those phone calls -- people who won't fall asleep while listening to them -- recording them doesn't make sense. But traffic analysis does make sense. Once traffic analysis tells you somebody's in contact with a jihadist, then it's time to listen in and record. It's the same thing the cops do when they go to court and get permission for a wiretap. I could argue about the constitutionality of the FISA court requirement when what we're dealing with is war -- defense instead of law-enforcement. FISA's clearly not constitutional. But beyond that I keep reading about the Supreme Court allowing NSA "wiretapping" when what's going on isn't wiretapping at all. It's simply traffic analysis.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 29, 2013, 06:26:46 PM
If we're going to insist on eliminating anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases from this forum we might as well erase it entirely.

+ 1,000,000
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 06:50:05 PM
...  comparison of the NSA/Snowden data gathering disclosures, to the that of SAP-AG.  Here is a company that has networked, quite literally, more than 50% of the enterprise of the world and gathers telecommunications billing, inventory, acquisition, financial data, right down to ariable garden acreage to headquarters, surprisingly, or perhaps unsuprisingly, in Israel.  Check it out.  SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial...

As I mentioned previously in this thread, I am not a fan of corporate invasion of privacy either:

Quote
I personally object to Google-style metadata collecting as well, but the worst that can happen is being bombarded by their ads. Or another example how much metadata can reveal: how Target knew a teenager is pregnant before her dad did (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/). But the worst that can happen if the government starts abusing it is frightening.

In case of Google at al, I can at least adjust my browser as not to send my browsing habits, history, search terms, etc. (within reason). In case of corporations, like SAP, the potential for abuse does exist, but is mostly relevant for other corporations.

The ability of governments (including American) to abuse its power is proven and its extent terrifying, even if potentially. They (including American) are known to medically experiment on their own citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment), let alone foreign (http://laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=23558&ArticleId=369168), including child abduction (Australian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations), plus Newt Gingrich proposal (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-11-27/news/1994331010_1_orphanages-newt-gingrich-illegitimacy)) and forced sterilization (http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/us/north-carolina-sterilization-payments). They are known (including American) to stage "terrorist" attack on their own soil, or at least consider it as an option, as a pretext to shift the public opinion. And, no, I am not talking about 9/11. Check Operation Northwoods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods), for instance.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 06:52:36 PM
If we're going to insist on eliminating anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases from this forum we might as well erase it entirely.

I am glad that you (and your buddy mezzo) finally admitted that your participation here amounts to (unconfirmed) "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases" ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 07:11:56 PM
Exactly, Slobodan. The technical difficulties, including the amount of storage required, would be absurd.

Actually no. In fact, it already exists and has for some time. Built by phone companies and shared with the U.S. Government when requested.

And when it opens later this year, the NSA's Utah Data Center, with its 3 - 12 EXABYTE storage capacity will be able store, not only the recordings of every phone call on the planet for many years to come, but all internet activity as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com/greenwald-are-all-telephone-calls-recorded-and-accessible-to-the-us-government-2013-5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center



Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 29, 2013, 07:16:46 PM
I am glad that you (and your buddy mezzo) finally admitted that your participation here amounts to (unconfirmed) "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases" ;)

Please don't assign anyone as my 'buddy'. You are both hilarious and presumptuous, Slobo....
And, personally, I would characterize my participation here as taunting, bemused, condescending, smug, and dismissive, but not "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases".
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 29, 2013, 07:23:47 PM
Slobodan,

The accumulation of individual data which people voluntarily disclose is of little concern to me, but the assemblage of detailed operational, financial, asset, marketing and planning data from 50% of the businesses world-wide provides SAP with a unique investment advantage that will, inexorably, corner wealth and threaten economic and social stability far more than the NSA's discovery of aberrant sexual preferences or the unhealthy psychological condition of face-book posters.  Inside information and the network of "partners" (by invitation only) that SAP is tied to has created a web unlike any other in the world.  That its "research" is conducted in a non-extraditing jurisdiction is not by accident, nor I fear, benevolently motivated.  

Snowdon is fodder for public consumption. Whether he's treasonous or reporting treason is nothing more than a distraction.  

Ken Richmond





Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 29, 2013, 07:32:29 PM
Slobodan,

The accumulation of individual data which people voluntarily disclose is of little concern to me, but the assemblage of detailed operational, financial, asset, marketing and planning data from 50% of the businesses world-wide provides SAP with a unique investment advantage that will, inexorably, corner wealth and threaten economic and social stability far more than the NSA's discovery of aberrant sexual preferences or the unhealthy psychological condition of face-book posters.

Ken,

According to you, what % of the data managed by SAP software is stored in on premise servers located within the customer network vs those data stored in the cloud and managed by SAP themselves?

My bet would be that 90+% is stored on premise with that pourcentage reaching close to 100% for large clients.

If I am correct, you concern is mostly not valid.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 07:54:17 PM
Please don't assign anyone as my 'buddy'...

Well, since you assigned one million +1s to his opinion, in red letters nonetheless, I thought there could be a budding bromance in the making ;D

Quote
... And, personally, I would characterize my participation here as taunting, bemused, condescending, smug, and dismissive, but not "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases".

Glad we cleared that up! ;)

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 29, 2013, 08:00:32 PM
Well, since you assigned one million +1s to his opinion, in red letters nonetheless, I thought there could be a budding bromance in the making ;D

Glad we cleared that up! ;)


Not to mention the bouquet of roses that just arrived. Very sweet of him.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 29, 2013, 08:01:38 PM
"...According to you, what % of the data managed by SAP software is stored in on premise servers located within the customer network vs those data stored in the cloud and managed by SAP themselves?

My bet would be that 90+% is stored on premise with that pourcentage reaching close to 100% for large clients.
If I am correct, you concern is mostly not valid."         "What do you mean when you say, " If I'm correct???",  Exactly what is the bet that you propose?   Your premise, being based upon where data is located is totally irrelevant.  SAP has access to all of the data I've described for each of its clients, and most recently, if you read SAP's disclosures, they are now drilling down to retail.  Moreover, in larger organizations, SAP is embedded - permanently.    

Let me suggest, respectfully, that you take some time to learn something about the subject posed before responding to a question that wasn't addressed specifically to you.  We can learn from each other here, or toss out meaningless offensive one liners.  You never know who you run into, and in this particular case, you are running into a wall.  I review SAP's proposals for my clients.

Ken Richmond





Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on July 29, 2013, 08:02:35 PM
Not to mention the bouquet of roses that just arrived. Very sweet of him.

S.W.A.K!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 08:05:37 PM
Not to mention the bouquet of roses that just arrived. Very sweet of him.

Red?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 29, 2013, 09:12:30 PM
"Research Headquarters and Lab in Israel, Vlad.

Thanks,

Ken Richmond

SAP entities (Labs, etc) in Israel are no different from similar operations (including SAP Labs) in many other countries... Ken.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 29, 2013, 09:14:37 PM
Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that requires "humint," in other words, people on the spot.
that "kind of thing" requires career "humint" people willing not to bend to a political pressure from some a$$holes in a then current administration and not manipulate facts to suit Dick's dick, that's it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 29, 2013, 09:27:14 PM
that "kind of thing" requires career "humint" people willing not to bend to a political pressure from some a$$holes in a then current administration and not manipulate facts to suit Dick's dick, that's it.

Eh? Better try English, Vlad. I haven't a clue what that means. I suspect you haven't either.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 29, 2013, 11:00:31 PM
Since I speak both languages, Russ, allow me to translate. ;)

Vlad refers to Dick Cheney's arm twisting of CIA operatives to produce reports that would be ultimately used to justify the invasion.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 29, 2013, 11:24:40 PM
Quote from: Ken Richmond link=topic=79991.msg651518#msg651518 date
Your premise, being based upon where data is located is totally irrelevant.  SAP has access to all of the data I've described for each of its clients, and most recently, if you read SAP's disclosures, they are now drilling down to retail.  Moreover, in larger organizations, SAP is embedded - permanently.    

Let me suggest, respectfully, that you take some time to learn something about the subject posed before responding to a question that wasn't addressed specifically to you.  We can learn from each other here, or toss out meaningless offensive one liners.  You never know who you run into, and in this particular case, you are running into a wall.  I review SAP's proposals for my clients.

Kent,

Apologies, I did not intend to be offensive. I happen to know about this domain a bit also, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

So would you mind explaining why my premise is irrelevant?

How and for what purpose does SAP access these data stored in on premise servers managed by their clients?

Is it done on a systematic basis of is it related to some particular circumpstances, like the need to debug an issue?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 30, 2013, 04:14:16 AM
Stamper, I don't know where you're getting this kind of crap, but it's well known that every intelligence agency in the free world was convinced Saddam had WMD. His own generals thought he had WMD and would use them.

There were inspectors in Iraq for months. They couldn't find any, not even a damp firecracker. You are now saying that every intelligence agency in the world was totally incompetent? Bush and Blair told lies and ignored their agency's. George Tennant took the fall for Bush but in the UK John Scarlett didn't. A lot of countries in Europe opposed the invasion because there wasn't a shred of evidence. Russ dancing on a pinhead doesn't impress the members of the forum...but I guess that is what you are good at.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2013, 05:12:45 AM
Stamper, I don't know where you're getting this kind of crap, but it's well known that every intelligence agency in the free world was convinced Saddam had WMD. His own generals thought he had WMD and would use them.

Right...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9937516/Iraq-war-the-greatest-intelligence-failure-in-living-memory.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB254/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

It seems pretty clear that at least the entourage of President Bush and Prime Minister Blair did everything they could to pressure intelligence agencies to only retain information backing up the claims supporting their burning desire to attack Irak.

You cannot honnestly be thinking that this is simply a collective failure of intelligence agencies, right?

Or... if you do, how can you still trust the NSA blindly about what they do with information after having demonstrated such an amazing degree of incompetence?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on July 30, 2013, 05:20:00 AM
Bernard that looks like "impressive" crap.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2013, 05:26:27 AM
Bernard that looks like "impressive" crap.

Yep, BBC generated crap tends to be more credible than others.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 30, 2013, 05:34:04 AM
Snowden is a distraction. The Prism Project is a tempest in a teapot. Your phone metadata has never been private. Your phone calls have never been private. There are thousands of people who work for the big corporation that sells you your phone service who can look at your phone bill anytime they want. They can listen in on your phone calls anytime they want.

I doubt that very much. Everything like that at telco's usually has an audit trail of who did what when. Just because you work in billing or dispute resolution or customer service does not give you the authority or right to look at anyone's bill at any time.

Similarly, they cannot listen to your phone call at any time they want.

Quote
A friend of mine once disputed being billed for an international phone call. She said she never made the call, so the phone company customer service representative pushed a button and played a recording of her phone call back to her, on the spot.

I've got to wonder whether that was part of the accepted ToS and if said friend could have sued the telco. To me this sounds like an unauthorised wiretap or there is something more going on here than we're being told - such as previous disputes from your friend with the telco so they put something in place to let them defend their bill. I cannot believe for one second that any/all telco's do this as a matter of course.

Quote
Now suddenly, when these corporations hand over a list of your phone calls to the NSA the sky is falling? I don't think so.

Imagine that you've disclosed your religion to facebook or that facebook is able to infer it. If facebook then provides that information about you to the government, are you trying to say that this is acceptable? What it your telco decided to provide the government with a GPS log from your cell phone, would you be ok with that too because it is just metadata?

The problem isn't that it is a list of phone calls but that there are corporations giving personal data about you away to the government without a warrant.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 30, 2013, 05:40:18 AM
You cannot honnestly be thinking that this is simply a collective failure of intelligence agencies, right?

I'm sure that the US government doesn't see it as a failure of the intelligence agencies as they got the justification that they wanted to engage in an invasion that they wanted.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 30, 2013, 06:31:19 AM
Kent,

Apologies, I did not intend to be offensive. I happen to know about this domain a bit also, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

So would you mind explaining why my premise is irrelevant?

How and for what purpose does SAP access these data stored in on premise servers managed by their clients?

Is it done on a systematic basis of is it related to some particular circumpstances, like the need to debug an issue?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard


In 2008, as SAP was introducing its "cloud based" solutions, it opened up a large complex/campus for its "lab" and "research" headquarters.  This is located in Ra'anana, which is the data mining/analytics capital of the wrorld.  SAP shares and partners with Nice-Actimize (Bank Systems-Trading Floor Risk Reduction through data mining/analytics); McKit (Data collection for Asset Life Ccyle Analysis); Kinor Knowledge Networds ("...Enables health care suppliers to integrate information and achieve compliance and to share data betwwen law enforcement and homeland security)G-Stat (Data mining events and individuals for predictions needed for risk assessment, inventory managment and planning based on consumer demand)Entopia (Knowledge management semantic mapping, searching and retrieval of web based information) Clear Forest (DIAL Software - which assimilates date of indefinite size identifying key terms to generate taxonomy with inter-relationships)
Each of these companies has a large facility in Ra'anana or Kiryat Aryeh.

Israel, for the obvious defensive reasons, has absolutely no regulatory restrictions on the acquisition of "private" information, or its use for non citizens, or citizens where state security might be involved, nor does it have any developed anti-trust law (having many companies with 50% or more market share) or foreign holdings disclosure requirements for foreign companies with operations in Israel.

SAP, in order to implement its "solutions" has access to all of it's customer data.  Most recently, SAP is "partnering" with Equity Funds where it promises predictive data to enhance the profitability.

SAP necessarily has access to all client data.

I've edited the remainder of this post because the confidentiality guarantees that I'm acquainted with are US based and it would be unfair/unwise to generalize or address extra-territorial interpretations for which I'm neither licensed or qualified.

Thanks,

Ken Richmond

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2013, 07:02:35 AM
In 2008, as SAP was introducing its "cloud based" solutions, it opened up a large complex/campus for its "lab" and "research" headquarters.  

SAP, in order to implement its "solutions" has access to all of it's customer data.  Most recently, SAP is "partnering" with Equity Funds where it promises predictive data to enhance the profitability.

SAP necessarily has access to all client data.

Hello again Ken,

This applies to those customer who have decided to trust their data to SAP cloud based solutions only, correct?

Do you have data showing what pourcentage of large SAP customers have chosen this option as opposed to using SAP with an on premise server hosted in their premises?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ken Richmond on July 30, 2013, 07:51:46 AM
I have no access to that information.

Thanks,

Ken Richmond
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2013, 08:41:05 AM
I have no access to that information.

Ken,

Without this information my understanding is that you cannot really know to what extend SAP could actually be the potential big vilain you told us about in an earlier post.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on July 30, 2013, 10:39:16 AM
Vlad refers to Dick Cheney's arm twisting of CIA operatives to produce reports that would be ultimately used to justify the invasion.
Bush and Blair told lies and ignored their agency's (sic).
It seems pretty clear that at least the entourage of President Bush and Prime Minister Blair did everything they could to pressure intelligence agencies to only retain information backing up the claims supporting their burning desire to attack Irak.

You cannot honnestly (sic) be thinking that this is simply a collective failure of intelligence agencies, right?

Well, I see there's been a lot of posting while I slept.

I give up. Propaganda mills thrive on gullibility and it's clear The Coffee Corner is providing an intensely receptive audience.

All I can do at this point is echo Wellington: "If you (guys) believe that you will believe anything."

I'm outta here!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on July 30, 2013, 01:20:23 PM
http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/life-in-the-twilight/?singlepage=true
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 30, 2013, 02:07:16 PM
So much for the theory that publicly disclosing information amounts to "aiding the enemy":

Manning Is Acquitted of 'Aiding the Enemy' (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/us/bradley-manning-verdict.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1375207493-cq4SG8446Co/CvHmUDuxTw)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 30, 2013, 02:08:29 PM
http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/life-in-the-twilight/?singlepage=true

Please do not post links without telling us what's the point of posting it, the gist, or, as a minimum, what it is about.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on July 30, 2013, 02:24:34 PM
So much for the theory that publicly disclosing information amounts to "aiding the enemy":

Manning Is Acquitted of 'Aiding the Enemy' (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/us/bradley-manning-verdict.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1375207493-cq4SG8446Co/CvHmUDuxTw)

That charge was always a stretch, IMO.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on July 30, 2013, 05:47:09 PM
So much for the theory that publicly disclosing information amounts to "aiding the enemy":

Manning Is Acquitted of 'Aiding the Enemy' (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/us/bradley-manning-verdict.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1375207493-cq4SG8446Co/CvHmUDuxTw)

it depends on the definition... some people here do think that 1/2 of their own population are enemies  ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on July 31, 2013, 10:16:36 AM
Revealed: NSA program collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data#story)

Hello! 1984, where are you?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on July 31, 2013, 10:40:44 PM
 hunter thompson went near mad during the nixon juggernaut, eventually so full of contempt for the system that he was generally useless for the rest of his life,
the curse of lono and a few bits and pieces notwithstanding, he was spent during his rabid if ineffectual rantings that I admire still- hated nixon...
makes me think of the forty plus years since,
the entire gobmint is full of nixons,
goddam police state-
you people,
dont you see that the only thing less hypocritical than snowdens dealings,
are the govt's handling of the leakers and what will be done to them.
The govt should just admit what it did in Iraq,
then maybe we'll move on,
depending on if the police state continues,
no one cares?
Just wait,
you'll see,
$$$ spent to watch everyone, the least able to defend themselves,
losers,
the next in line,
anyone with law enforcement contact,
then will come tax cheats,
maybe,
probably credit defaulters first then tax cheats,
soon we'll have to have reeducation camps to keep up with the demand for um reeducation,,,
Snowden is the smoke and mirrors ploy,
obama on the hill today?
When greenwald was gonna testify?
HAHAHA
you guys just keep eating it up,
I don't care,
I have nothing to hide, the security team and law enforcement has too much money and it is my game to make them spend it,
that's where this will end,
when we find out how much this BS costs the nation,
HOW MUCH???
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 01, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
hunter thompson went near mad during the nixon juggernaut, eventually so full of contempt for the system that he was generally useless for the rest of his life,

Oh, I see: It was political frustration and contempt for the system that reduced him to a barking loon, and not his well-documented insatiable appetite for any and all drugs, both narcotic and psychotropic. Thanks for that edifying little tidbit of pure horse shit.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 01, 2013, 04:00:47 AM
Oh, I see: It was political frustration and contempt for the system that reduced him to a barking loon, and not his well-documented insatiable appetite for any and all drugs, both narcotic and psychotropic. Thanks for that edifying little tidbit of pure horse shit.


Quite; if you watch the Annie L bio by her sister, you'll see her references to the man as well as the Rolling Stone world of dreams Annie and writer both inhabited... he probably smoked as much genuine, desert-dried mustang horse-shit as he dropped everything else.

But then, in recent culture, many crazies catch the 'educated' as well as public ear. It's what makes them even more crazy: they can't believe their mental shit is selling and propagating, thus destroying what they had hoped would be their well-earned sense of commercial and messianic angst... A poet without pain! The failure of not being misunderstood! What a travesty of natural justice - only absolute madness and a soupçon of suicide remain as acceptable exit.

Thank goodness I only produced images and some print.

Rob C

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 01, 2013, 08:56:36 AM

Quite; if you watch the Annie L bio by her sister, you'll see her references to the man as well as the Rolling Stone world of dreams Annie and writer both inhabited... he probably smoked as much genuine, desert-dried mustang horse-shit as he dropped everything else.

But then, in recent culture, many crazies catch the 'educated' as well as public ear. It's what makes them even more crazy: they can't believe their mental shit is selling and propagating, thus destroying what they had hoped would be their well-earned sense of commercial and messianic angst... A poet without pain! The failure of not being misunderstood! What a travesty of natural justice - only absolute madness and a soupçon of suicide remain as acceptable exit.

Thank goodness I only produced images and some print.

Rob C



 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 01, 2013, 09:16:23 AM
Back to Richard Snowden.
After having the US deny torturing prisoners in hte face of evidence, aftr the US having assured Russia that it will not seek the death penalty, after the US managed to down the plane of a head of state just by asking,
well Russia has the guts to tell the US,
'we don't believe you.'
Grants Snowden asylum,
and good,
can't wait to hear greenwald testify,
oh and mz
what is your disfunction?
You suddenly show up to this board and start insulting everyone you can,
you seem like a weirdo
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 01, 2013, 11:20:10 AM
Back to Richard Snowden.
After having the US deny torturing prisoners in hte face of evidence, aftr the US having assured Russia that it will not seek the death penalty, after the US managed to down the plane of a head of state just by asking,
well Russia has the guts to tell the US,
'we don't believe you.'
Grants Snowden asylum,
and good,
can't wait to hear greenwald testify,
oh and mz
what is your disfunction?
You suddenly show up to this board and start insulting everyone you can,
you seem like a weirdo



Who do?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 01, 2013, 09:06:59 PM


Who do?

Rob C

Rob,
I believe Rocco Penny refers to yours truly.  Yes, my feelings are hurt.... :'(
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 02, 2013, 04:11:36 AM
Rob,
I believe Rocco Penny refers to yours truly.  Yes, my feelings are hurt.... :'(


Never mind; pop, over to another thread and someone there will give you a spanking new bandage for the wound, provided courtesy the British tax payer!

We are all so generous in Britian, especially those of us with no money. We have developed the admirable, collective (what else?) skill of spending someone else's as if it were our own.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on August 02, 2013, 04:25:47 AM
Quote Rob C

We are all so generous in Britian, especially those of us with no money. We have developed the admirable, collective (what else?) skill of spending someone else's as if it were our own.

;-)

Unquote.

Why do you use the word WE? When was the last time you lived in Britain? If my memory is correct you fled 30 years ago to your Mallorcan haven. Since then you have regularly bad mouthed Britain and Scotland in particular. Even the Tories accept paying for bandages from tax payer's money is reasonable. Nuf said because I wish to remain a member of this forum. :o
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 03, 2013, 11:38:00 AM
The FBI is getting in on surveillance without a warrant too:

FBI pressures Internet providers to install surveillance software (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57596791-38/fbi-pressures-internet-providers-to-install-surveillance-software/)

Of course, it is just more "metadata", harmless, right?

Except that this means the FBI will now know how often you're looking at porn or if you're accessing a gambling website overseas, etc.

Given that they have no idea who each IP belongs to and their methodology, they obviously care naught for whether or not both parties for an Internet transaction are American.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on August 03, 2013, 06:57:33 PM
And given that they don't know the identity associated with any IP, how exactly is this an invasion of privacy? There's no evidence that any of this is being used for anything other than the stated purpose.

All countries have intelligence services and all of them engage in this kind of traffic analysis, because it's in their national interest. Not to do so in the face of an ongoing terrorist threat would be an an act of gross negligence.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 04, 2013, 09:12:20 AM
funny how not spying on your own people, using defense derived technology on your own people,  building a police state capable of quashing common dissent if not actually engaged in that,well,
failing to do these things is tantamount to gross negligence in half this nation's small minded prideful nostalgic construct.
cool, go on...
now congressional members, and members of the senate are admitting to denied access to critical documents even explaining the nature of the fisa court decisions.
Man,
you guys have this coming-
again maybe 1 plot foiled,
how many billions does this cost?
bad set up
keep building the middle class by bullying those least able to defend themselves...
if we make it,
people will look back at our kind and call us fools-
whatever
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: ddolde on August 04, 2013, 01:42:50 PM
What a great display of ignorance starting with "Richard".  It's Edward Snowden.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 04, 2013, 01:52:59 PM
What a great display of ignorance starting with "Richard".  It's Edward Snowden.


Well at least nobody mentioned Edward Steichen.

Dickie, Dick, Eddie, Ted or anything else: a rose by any other name... In the end, it's the cult by which thou shalt know them.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 04, 2013, 06:19:09 PM
yep richard snowden is a rube---
and to top off matters,
chuck schumer says to obama "let's call off the St Petersburg bully summit, on account that putin's a bully"
what part of rip off don't you guys get?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 04, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
What a great display of ignorance starting with "Richard".  It's Edward Snowden.

I am glad someone finally noticed I was refering all along to my neighbour Richard and his issues with our Naturalist Sadomasistic Association.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Gulag on August 05, 2013, 12:25:57 AM
As I said in another post, Americans don't really care about "freedom" because they just want "Moar."

Americans "Just" Wants To Be Safe, Happy, Rich, Comfortable, Entertained At All Times

http://www.theonion.com/video/nation-just-wants-to-be-safe-happy-rich-comfortabl,33336/

Progress!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on August 05, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real. Pew Research never conducted any such study.

Here are some other Onion stories that have "cited" Pew Research:

"Pew Research Poll Finds Creationists, Evolutionists Now Outnumbered By Whogivesashitists "

"Poll: 1 In 5 Americans Believe Obama Is A Cactus"

"Number Of Users Who Actually Enjoy Facebook Down To 4"

"Poll: Americans Feel Safer With Martha Stewart In Jail"
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 05, 2013, 12:47:03 PM
FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real.

FYI Pop, I hope you understand that a satire stings (and says) more than a naked truth? That, for instance, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert form Comedy Central are the source of real news, and Fox News is the source for comedy?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on August 05, 2013, 02:19:35 PM
Anyone who accepts Fox News as anything other than a front for the far right wing of the Republican Party is likely to believe anything.

But this would not be the first time that someone mistook The Onion as fact.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/28/world/iran-news-agency-duped
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 05, 2013, 02:39:27 PM
FYI Pop, I hope you understand that a satire stings (and says) more than a naked truth? That, for instance, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert form Comedy Central are the source of real news, and Fox News is the source for comedy?


Good grief, Slobodan! For a brief moment there I thought you'd joined with my friend who thinks a ? at the end of a statement creates a question! That's dangerous stuff for two heart attacks to cope with; so teensie Laurel Canyon, don't you think?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Gulag on August 05, 2013, 06:58:28 PM
FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real. Pew Research never conducted any such study.

Here are some other Onion stories that have "cited" Pew Research:

"Pew Research Poll Finds Creationists, Evolutionists Now Outnumbered By Whogivesashitists "

"Poll: 1 In 5 Americans Believe Obama Is A Cactus"

"Number Of Users Who Actually Enjoy Facebook Down To 4"

"Poll: Americans Feel Safer With Martha Stewart In Jail"

Here is what Howard Zinn had observed a while back, and let me quote:

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and the unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

- Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United States, 1980

http://historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncomrev24.html
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on August 05, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
All very interesting in and of itself, but in no way is it either new information or relevant.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 06, 2013, 12:39:01 AM
FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real. Pew Research never conducted any such study.

And while The Onion may be satire and there for entertainment purposes, maybe you're missing the picture in that the joke is the research but the observation (that America seems to have a lot of "whogivesashit" people in it) isn't.

FYI Pop, I hope you understand that a satire stings (and says) more than a naked truth? That, for instance, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert form Comedy Central are the source of real news, and Fox News is the source for comedy?

It is telling that many people (especially the young) actually look to those two shows as a source of their information on current affairs rather than the traditional outlets:

The Cycle Poll: 12% of Americans get their news from The Daily Show (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-cycle/51792725#51792725)
Young get news from Comedy Central (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-207_162-603270.html)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on August 06, 2013, 12:47:56 AM
Satire is a play on stereotypes. If people see others only as stereotypes they'll never see them as human beings.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 06, 2013, 12:50:15 AM
And given that they don't know the identity associated with any IP, how exactly is this an invasion of privacy? There's no evidence that any of this is being used for anything other than the stated purpose.

So if I put a GPS locator on a random car and track everywhere that it goes then because I don't know who they are it isn't an invasion of their privacy? I mean it isn't like I'm going to use it for anything ... and you'd also argue that I don't need a court order for that too, correct? It's not like I'm the DMV (or your local equivalent) so I won't know who owns the car. If it is a random car choice and I just happened to pick yours, well that would just be dumb luck for you, wouldn't it?

Now as for what the data is being used for, well this story...
Other agencies clamour for the data that the NSA compiles (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/us/other-agencies-clamor-for-data-nsa-compiles.html?_r=0)
... doesn't fill me with confidence as if the president says "thou shalt share", well it is all over, isn't it?

Quote
All countries have intelligence services and all of them engage in this kind of traffic analysis, because it's in their national interest. Not to do so in the face of an ongoing terrorist threat would be an an act of gross negligence.

So as long as the USA maintains a foreign policy that incites various people around the world to hate it, it is perpetuating the problem of terrorism which you then argue it needs to defend against by violating various parts of the constitution, human rights, etc.

The war against terrorism will be like the war on drugs: a never ending "problem" that is self created that requires a never ending amount of money to be spent on it, etc.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 06, 2013, 04:46:02 AM
Here is what Howard Zinn had observed a while back, and let me quote:

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and the unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

- Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United States, 1980

http://historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncomrev24.html


That which you describe/quote isn’t really an organized conspiracy, the idea of which appears to be being propagated.

Man is, by nature, an unfriendly sort of animal, much like the rest of the predators. That happens to be the purpose of civilization: the attempt to reconcile, or at least keep within (and not include!) homicidal limits, the relationships that we all have to endure. Sit in the subway, compete for a taxi at the hospital gates when you have made the call but somebody else says that they did the ordering; reach for your credit card at the supermarket to pay for your weekly shopping when the guy behind you has bought a couple of cans of beer and nothing much else. The hatred towards strangers is palpable; if looks could kill there’d be no crowds.

Haves and have nots are the norm and always will be. It’s how life is, and no amount of envy and political posturing ever changes that – trials and revolutions enough have been attempted already, all of which turn into nothing but a redistribution of the available goodies to yet another select grouping. I’d rather they stay with those who create them than with those who steal them from the former.

Anyone with access to a newspaper’s editor, a tv station or a publishing house can make and spread faux statements that sound clever and deep; a few seconds of reading should be enough to indicate the direction from which they spring. Unfortunately, that analysis seldom seems to happen – it’s all gobbled up and read as fact.

Satire is a beautiful media: you can offend and insult and cloak it with a smile and make money at the same time. That you might regularly get sued is probably deductible, too. I don’t know, but if it’s true that the young get their political ‘knowledge’ from tv shows and literary comics, then that might go a fairly long way to explaining why the world is where it is today, and with decreasing signs of it managing to climb back out of the pit it’s digging for itself.

That the rich-list is as it is is hardly surprising; think back to school: how many people scored within the 95% - 100% ranges? Very few indeed. That defines the differences at a very early stage in life, and happens to be one of the very signifiers that so many governments do their best to disguise and discourage. Everything else is causal apart from the fact that some kids are bright and others not. It certainly doesn’t happen only in school: the outside, adult world has just as many challenges where scholastic skills are not able to compete with street smarts. Those who fall at both hurdles really have no-one and nothing else to blame but themselves.

But isn’t a perceived plot so much more rewarding and comforting?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 06, 2013, 04:57:04 AM
The war against terrorism will be like the war on drugs: a never ending "problem" that is self created that requires a never ending amount of money to be spent on it, etc.


There, I think I find we can agree.

Until the 'west' stops supporting (by inaction) the theft of land and also fails to stamp down hard on the users of drugs, the very ones who fuel the market in death (you don't long produce what folks won't buy), then of course the status quo continues and even grows.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: SunnyUK on August 06, 2013, 06:09:17 AM
That the rich-list is as it is is hardly surprising; think back to school: how many people scored within the 95% - 100% ranges? Very few indeed. That defines the differences at a very early stage in life, and happens to be one of the very signifiers that so many governments do their best to disguise and discourage. Everything else is causal apart from the fact that some kids are bright and others not. It certainly doesn’t happen only in school: the outside, adult world has just as many challenges where scholastic skills are not able to compete with street smarts. Those who fall at both hurdles really have no-one and nothing else to blame but themselves.

Ah.... social Darwinism. Such an pleasantly easy and convenient way to avoid taking any responsibility for the society in which we live. It's their own fault. Indeed. *puke*
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 06, 2013, 10:26:28 AM
Ah.... social Darwinism. Such an pleasantly easy and convenient way to avoid taking any responsibility for the society in which we live. It's their own fault. Indeed. *puke*


If it isn't, to whom else would you toss responsibility? To me? To their despairing teachers or, perhaps, the employers who simply find them unemployable? Obviously, never to the useless themselves.

Seems the concept of blamelessness is wider than I'd feared. But then, I'm pretty sure you also doubt poor old Darwin on other matters, too.

Why do you think that of all the animals we are different, that adapt or die doesn't include the human condition as well? I'm constantly being reminded in this forum that I, too, must adapt or die, that my goode olden days are a figment of an aged imagination, that nobody had fantastic assignments, roamed the Earth on expenses and had one helluva good time doing it. Mostly, the odd client notwithstanding. Heavens, a love of film is enough to bring back the pterodactyl for some.

I await your social solution with interest.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: SunnyUK on August 06, 2013, 10:41:09 AM
"Useless" ????   Wow, that's a cute label to attach to living, breathing human beings.

What does Van Gogh, Matthew Brady, Franz Schubert, William Blake, Edgar Allen Poe and Vermeer have in common?  They were all what you would call "useless" in that they managed to fail miserably in earning a living from what they created, and died poor and unappreciated by their contemporaries.

It's so easy to sling words around and I'm sure it must give you a very nice, warm feeling to sit in your sunny haven and mock those less fortunate than yourself.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 06, 2013, 10:54:27 AM
Until the 'west' stops supporting (by inaction) the theft of land and also fails to stamp down hard on the users of drugs, the very ones who fuel the market in death (you don't long produce what folks won't buy), then of course the status quo continues and even grows.

Who's theft of land is being ignored?
And why do you think coming down hard on drug users is the solution?

And why do you think either of those are the solution to the war on terror and drugs respectively?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 06, 2013, 12:32:30 PM
1. Who's theft of land is being ignored?
2. And why do you think coming down hard on drug users is the solution?

And why do you think either of those are the solution to the war on terror and drugs respectively?


1. I would start the thought process with the illegal buildings on Palestinian lands; the consideration that as long as the US props up Israel and turns effectively blind eyes to the situation, continues to support it both militarily, morally (in private if not wholly in public at least) and financially, the US will be thought of as part and parcel of the Israeli action.

2. If there were no market for drugs, who would produce them and kill to maintain the industry? It has always been impossible to control production, mainly because much of it is abroad, but controlling the domestic buying market should be relatively easy, if the will were ever there.  Corruption knows many friends, at all levels. Just think of the lack of action by the financial watchdogs in 2008 if you doubt: they were there, lying in their boxes, preferred not to bark, but kept an eye instead on the food plates being filled. Today some are advisers to government, instead of in prison.

There’s an interesting movie, Inside Job, that has much to say on the subject.

The ‘west’ is often accused – mainly by its own revolutionaries - that its only interest is oil. Were that so, then there would not have ever been a problem: the Arabs are as willing to sell as the west to buy. The first thing post-invasion Iraq wanted was to export again, and Iran wants little more either. That it wishes a nuclear deterrent to its US-supported local nemesis is hardly rocket science nor unexpected. Few, anywhere, believe in the safety of verbal agreements and/or third-party defence promises. The sooner we learn to let ‘foreigners’ decide their own religious and domestic agendas, the better. We can’t, and shouldn’t, export our ideals as if they were sacrosanct, without flaw. They barely work for us!

My own opinion on the nuclear issue? I think that only those who already have it should be permitted its development. Its function as a final caller of bluff works: witness Cuba and the Missile Crisis. Any leader with even half a brain understands that unilateral deployment is tantamount to suicide. The danger, as ever, resides in those lands and minds where suicide is an honour, a fate better than life.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 06, 2013, 12:48:53 PM
"Useless" ????   Wow, that's a cute label to attach to living, breathing human beings.

What does Van Gogh, Matthew Brady, Franz Schubert, William Blake, Edgar Allen Poe and Vermeer have in common?  They were all what you would call "useless" in that they managed to fail miserably in earning a living from what they created, and died poor and unappreciated by their contemporaries.

It's so easy to sling words around and I'm sure it must give you a very nice, warm feeling to sit in your sunny haven and mock those less fortunate than yourself.


Even more easy to ignore the message, seize upon a single 'explosive!' word (got a better one?) and obfuscate with lists of other people you feel fell by the wayside for whatever reasons. I'm sure all of them would have been happier to have found their pot of gold whilst still alive. But the crucial difference is: they were talented. The unemployable of today's world are often just that: unemployable. Remember the makers of buggy whips, with whom I'm sometimes compared? I believe they were talented too...

As for mockery, it plays no part. The idea, evidently, resides within your head. 

In order to recognize a problem you have to give it a name and accept that it's there. Where I live is irrelevant. As is luck, outwith a lottery. The funny thing is, the harder folks work the more lucky they seem to become. Ever notice that? No, maybe not.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 06, 2013, 01:52:48 PM
Any leader with even half a brain understands that unilateral deployment is tantamount to suicide.
so we shall assume that US leaders were brainless with Thors & Jupiters in UK, Italy, Turkey way before xUSSR w/ Cuba ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: popnfresh on August 06, 2013, 03:42:34 PM
Sure, we'll assume that. But first you have to admit that Khrushchev was brainless for crushing the Hungarian revolt in 1956.   :D :D :D
Title: Re: the war on drugs
Post by: dreed on August 06, 2013, 06:43:18 PM
2. If there were no market for drugs, who would produce them and kill to maintain the industry? It has always been impossible to control production, mainly because much of it is abroad, but controlling the domestic buying market should be relatively easy, if the will were ever there.

Understand that many drugs naturally grow wild and that human use of them dates back into ancient times (possibly since we were cave dwellers.) It is only the more modern "moral" or "thought" police that have declared them illegal and with it created the "war on drugs."

Making drugs illegal has some other effects:
- as a cash based economy, it is easy to generate a substantial tax-free income
- those who wish to generate income from them are able to exploit corrupt law enforcement officials
- it keeps law enforcement busy, puts lots of people in jail, is the raison d'etre for the entire DEA - i.e. creates lots of jobs
Title: Re: the war on drugs
Post by: Rob C on August 07, 2013, 05:35:29 AM
Understand that many drugs naturally grow wild and that human use of them dates back into ancient times (possibly since we were cave dwellers.) It is only the more modern "moral" or "thought" police that have declared them illegal and with it created the "war on drugs."

Making drugs illegal has some other effects:
- as a cash based economy, it is easy to generate a substantial tax-free income
- those who wish to generate income from them are able to exploit corrupt law enforcement officials
- it keeps law enforcement busy, puts lots of people in jail, is the raison d'etre for the entire DEA - i.e. creates lots of jobs


Dreed, I finally give up: your moral quicksands are as untraversable as your logic of cause and effect.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: SunnyUK on August 07, 2013, 05:55:34 AM
But the crucial difference is: they were talented. The unemployable of today's world are often just that: unemployable. Remember the makers of buggy whips, with whom I'm sometimes compared? I believe they were talented too...

I think you missed (or ignored?) my point. These great artist's talents were NOT recognised in their lifetime. Their fame is posthumous. The point is that talent and greatness is not always immediately recognisable. But that doesn't make talent useless.

The funny thing is, the harder folks work the more lucky they seem to become. Ever notice that? No, maybe not.

Remember You didn't build that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn't_build_that)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: SunnyUK on August 07, 2013, 05:59:45 AM
Until the 'west' ... fails to stamp down hard on the users of drugs, the very ones who fuel the market in death (you don't long produce what folks won't buy), then of course the status quo continues and even grows.

Oh, you mean the same way as prohibition in America worked so well in stamping out alcohol consumption and reducing crime. History surely proves that targeting the users is a great idea (!)
Title: Re: the war on drugs
Post by: dreed on August 07, 2013, 11:18:01 AM
Dreed, I finally give up: your moral quicksands are as untraversable as your logic of cause and effect.

Uh, read again - none of what I wrote was something I said that I believe in, etc, rather I just presented what is known to be facts.

Now if you cannot traverse the facts behind drugs, drug use, etc, then maybe you should think about reconsidering your own position on the topic.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 07, 2013, 03:54:48 PM
I think you missed (or ignored?) my point. These great artist's talents were NOT recognised in their lifetime. Their fame is posthumous. The point is that talent and greatness is not always immediately recognisable. But that doesn't make talent useless.Remember You didn't build that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn't_build_that)

Did anyone here say that it did?

It's the lack of it all around one that is the problem, not a surfeit of it. Talent and drive; those are the keys to the kingdom.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 07, 2013, 04:00:56 PM
Oh, you mean the same way as prohibition in America worked so well in stamping out alcohol consumption and reducing crime. History surely proves that targeting the users is a great idea (!)


"2. If there were no market for drugs, who would produce them and kill to maintain the industry? It has always been impossible to control production, mainly because much of it is abroad, but controlling the domestic buying market should be relatively easy, if the will were ever there.  Corruption knows many friends, at all levels. Just think of the lack of action by the financial watchdogs in 2008 if you doubt: they were there, lying in their boxes, preferred not to bark, but kept an eye instead on the food plates being filled. Today some are advisers to government, instead of in prison."

Yes, that's what I already indicatd in my post, quoted above.

The ability to resolve the problems are, and were, there - it's the political will and lack of honesty that's core to the problem at home. Start there. Don't give the corrupt lookers in the other direction great jobs - jail them.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Gulag on August 07, 2013, 06:27:21 PM

That which you describe/quote isn’t really an organized conspiracy, the idea of which appears to be being propagated.

Man is, by nature, an unfriendly sort of animal, much like the rest of the predators. That happens to be the purpose of civilization: the attempt to reconcile, or at least keep within (and not include!) homicidal limits, the relationships that we all have to endure. Sit in the subway, compete for a taxi at the hospital gates when you have made the call but somebody else says that they did the ordering; reach for your credit card at the supermarket to pay for your weekly shopping when the guy behind you has bought a couple of cans of beer and nothing much else. The hatred towards strangers is palpable; if looks could kill there’d be no crowds.

Haves and have nots are the norm and always will be. It’s how life is, and no amount of envy and political posturing ever changes that – trials and revolutions enough have been attempted already, all of which turn into nothing but a redistribution of the available goodies to yet another select grouping. I’d rather they stay with those who create them than with those who steal them from the former.


Rob C


If you could look a little further back, your opinions could have been a little different. Or simply read what Christopher Columbus wrote about the native Indians and their society on his first encounter about 500 years ago.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 07, 2013, 08:23:14 PM
If you could look a little further back, your opinions could have been a little different. Or simply read what Christopher Columbus wrote about the native Indians and their society on his first encounter about 500 years ago.
hey gulag,
good post-
just don't forget proof is meaningless to many men.
You can't beat it into them.  You can't wipe out a culture.
The thing we haven't been told,
is that the people that were here first have their own stories and history.
Legends that may be entertaining, and to some even enlightening.
There's this one story,
it doesn't end the way everyone likes to think...
basically the rotting stench that America started out as, continued unabated through the purposeful deaths of millions,
and continues on treating its young like a starving feral cat-
well, that america dies.
In my view it couldn't happen soon enough.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 08, 2013, 04:27:35 AM
If you could look a little further back, your opinions could have been a little different. Or simply read what Christopher Columbus wrote about the native Indians and their society on his first encounter about 500 years ago.


And looking even a tiny bit further back, voilà: no people at all!

Maybe that's where evolution ultimately leads us - square 1.

However the condition that counts is the present one - we can't do much about the past but either accept or rewrite it, as so many did and continue so to do.

I watched Snowden Snr praise Putin today... Putin, that head of the political culture still killing journalists. Has Snowden Snr a finely developed sense of irony! (And to think they say that Americans don't do irony!

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: brianrybolt on August 08, 2013, 06:03:36 AM
They (America) don't do much irony and when you do as an individual, you usually have to tell whomever your talking to that what you just said was ironic.  Otherwise, you might be looking down the barrel of their 45 automatic. 

As an expat American (living in the UK) I've been very impressed with the American TV series, Breaking Bad which was shown a few years ago.  Laced with dark humour and irony.  Something's changing!

Brian
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on August 08, 2013, 09:25:41 AM
I watched Snowden Snr praise Putin today... Putin, that head of the political culture still killing journalists. Has Snowden Snr a finely developed sense of irony! (And to think they say that Americans don't do irony!

Yes, we do. Can you say MPAA? If not, this (http://www.ifc.com/videos/this-film-is-not-yet-rated) ought to help. America, where freedom of your speech only works for those who approve of it.

And the entire Snowdon saga is awash in irony, which began with the ironic Patriot Act.

So, I'd say we Americans are quite well-versed in irony.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 08, 2013, 10:01:04 AM
Or, as Dilbert's boss said when Dilbert asked him if he knew what "irony" meant: "I send my shirts out."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 08, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Putin, that head of the political culture still killing journalists.
indeed... and then there is a political culture where mass shootings are rampant and so normal that they are happening 10 times more often than some journalist is actually killed in Russia ( Obama then is a head of it :) ) ...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 08, 2013, 12:06:14 PM
Careful Rob, that's rather like standing in the centre of Glasgow and shouting the Scots don't do happy.


Thanks for the warning, Keith, but standing in the centre of Glasgow shouting anything is fraught with danger - much as parking a blue or green car in the wrong areas. But the areas may have changed lo these pst few years: the south-side (these 'sides' make me think of Top Cat) has developed a large Roma population where I used to park as my kids went for their music lessons; another expensive area of mansion houses and flat-conversions of same has become Little Asia (you can't accuse those guys of not working or of having poor business heads!) and were I to return to buy, I'd be lost without family advice! So far, they always advise that I don't, but there's no guarantee that's not from a senses of self-preservation. I love family; family is great, family is strength and also very expensive at times.

Actually, I'm not really sure if the Scots do do happy very much; we seem to have a penchant for inspection of the collective navel, weep at funerals and fight at weddings, but happy... have to ask an American tourist.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 08, 2013, 12:08:55 PM
indeed... and then there is a political culture where mass shootings are rampant and so normal that they are happening 10 times more often than some journalist is actually killed in Russia ( Obama then is a head of it :) ) ...


Assuming that a question, then no: O'Bama (my little Irish joke) doesn't order or condone that, which is rather different.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 08, 2013, 12:41:54 PM

Assuming that a question, then no: O'Bama (my little Irish joke) doesn't order or condone that, which is rather different.


neither did Putin... but like Obama he just was not able to stop somebody else from doing that :-) ... you do not want to blame Obama for actions of mass shooters, OK... why do you want to blame Putin for somebody else killing a journalist ? may be you mixed Putin with Kuchma (ex President of Ukraine, related Gongadze case)  ;) ... do you have examples of Putin condoning or giving orders ? other than some allegations of opposition (remember Iraqi opposition figures feeding tales about WMD - that shall teach you that people will tell everything when they want to be paid)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 08, 2013, 01:48:04 PM
Or, as Dilbert's boss said when Dilbert asked him if he knew what "irony" meant: "I send my shirts out."

Or, as Baldrick said when asked a similar question, "It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron".

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 08, 2013, 08:14:04 PM
Putin, that head of the political culture still killing journalists.

Yep, he has apparently not yet understood that it was easier to have some friends buy the newspapers and control their editorial content.  ;)

Or, better yet, not yet managed to have his own citizens (including the journalists) ask for more control on the name of security and pretty much given up protesting in the first place.

He may consider orchestrating some terrorist attacks on landmark buildings in Moscow and blame whatever enemy he can come up with. That will federate his citizens around the idea of more control!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 08, 2013, 11:35:07 PM
Obama: spying on journalists and suppressing free speach
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 09, 2013, 12:25:14 AM
... He may consider orchestrating some terrorist attacks on landmark buildings in Moscow and blame whatever enemy he can come up with...

May!? How about "did"? Though not landmark, just two ordinary apartment buildings blown up by FSB (KGB successor) and blamed on Chechens in 1999. At least according to a widespread conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2013, 03:17:56 AM
May!? How about "did"? Though not landmark, just two ordinary apartment buildings blown up by FSB (KGB successor) and blamed on Chechens in 1999. At least according to a widespread conspiracy theory.

Nice, the guy is a visionary!  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 09, 2013, 03:56:45 AM
The latest one I heard was that Jack K. actually shot himself in that convertible in order to draw attention to his wife's overly strong attraction to Greek shipping; he much preferred the Irish yards.

Alternatively, it was a Mafia-led attack designed to get a new movie off the blocks. Yet others say it was the external arm of the United Trades Unions of Europe, in concert with the Animal Rights activists.

For myself, I'm convinced it never happened at all.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 09, 2013, 01:11:20 PM
There are no conspiracy theories at play here, it is all real.

The US government is leading the way in moving away from open and accountable governance to a model that thrives on secrecy that extends well beyond what is required. Too many people out there are asleep and don't/won't care as long as there is food on the table and cable TV to watch.

It is only through the actions of brave folks such as Snowden that we are given a glimpse as to how long the government's arm has grown and how much of our daily life it needlessly intrudes into.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on August 09, 2013, 04:48:27 PM
The US government is leading the way in moving away from open and accountable governance to a model that thrives on secrecy that extends well beyond what is required. Too many people out there are asleep and don't/won't care as long as there is food on the table and cable TV to watch.

Sad but true.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero? NSA feeds IRS.
Post by: dreed on August 10, 2013, 08:49:58 PM
IRS is using NSA data too, who in town isn't? (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/08/gaius-publius-irs-is-using-nsa-data-too-who-in-town-isnt.html)

Exclusive: IRS manual detailed DEA's use of hidden intel evidence (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKBRE9761B620130807)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero? Secret courts order surveillance
Post by: dreed on August 10, 2013, 09:00:22 PM
This is truly disturbing - the FISA/FISC operate in a manner that prevents people on the outside from knowing what is going on and any attempt to challenge its operations or decisions fails...

The government versus your secrets (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/08/the-government-versus-your-secrets.html?mbid=social_retweet)

... and so it is that the email service provider that Snowden was using chose to shut down instead of provide a compromised service, with another having followed suit.

Obviously if you want to run a service that provides secret and secure email, the USA is no longer the place to do that from.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero? NSA has access to domestic email/phone calls
Post by: dreed on August 10, 2013, 09:09:03 PM
NNSA loophole allows warrantless search for US citizens' emails and phone calls (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/nsa-loophole-warrantless-searches-email-calls)

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 11, 2013, 12:34:38 AM
I dunno about you guys.. but this just isn't the "change" I was hoping for.  And I'm sick and tired of hearing him blame the other guy.  If he didn't think he could make meaningful change in 4 or 8 years then why the heck did he apply for the job?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: alba63 on August 11, 2013, 04:50:09 AM
I dunno about you guys.. but this just isn't the "change" I was hoping for.  And I'm sick and tired of hearing him blame the other guy.  If he didn't think he could make meaningful change in 4 or 8 years then why the heck did he apply for the job?

Very sad to say, but I have to admit that, too. I guess he started with the best intentions, but he ended up the way we see him now. He probably slipped deeper into the dark zone than his predecessor ever was. On the other hand, the other one would most likely not have been better either.

As for the original question: While I would not call Snowden a "hero" (because I believe heroism is not a very useful concept in our modern world anymore), I think he is has shown remarkable courage, done a very good thing, and even if he did not forsee the full consequences, he has done the western world (the people I mean, not the governments) a huge service by disclosing some of the dirty stuff secret services all over the western world (US, GB, also Germany who collaborate with the NSA), plus the big players in the internet business have come to take as their standard mechanisms and methods. I just hope that a big enough part of the population will make clear to their governments of their countries that they are not willing to accept that stuff. "terrorism" has become a phoney excuse for their never- ending urge of surveillance.

Bernie
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 11, 2013, 11:18:01 AM
he is has shown remarkable courage, done a very good thing, and even if he did not forsee the full consequences, he has done the western world (the people I mean, not the governments) a huge service by disclosing some of the dirty stuff secret services a

We won't know if it was courage until the full story is told.  As far as I service.. I don't think so.  To have been a service "the people" would have to have been provided "actionable" material.  In other words, what constructive was done with the information?   AFAIK nothing.

As citizens we all know the government has secrets which would be less effective/useful if they weren't secrets (public knowledge).   From what I can see he hasn't actually helped anyone, but instead has made our country less effective in carrying out their missions.  It's folly to think every citizen needs to know every detail of what the government is doing.

About the wiretaps..  isn't this something we should have expected?  I'm sure we can see how useful they have the potential to be.  It's just too bad the administration didn't have the courage to go about it the right way..
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 11, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
... hat constructive was done with the information?   AFAIK nothing...

But it is starting:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324522504579002653564348842.html

Quote
In a striking policy shift... an extraordinary step in the face of this year's revelations from fugitive NSA leaker Edward Snowden...President Barack Obama announced plans to overhaul key parts the National Security Agency's surveillance programs.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 11, 2013, 12:49:13 PM
I dunno about you guys.. but this just isn't the "change" I was hoping for.  And I'm sick and tired of hearing him blame the other guy.  If he didn't think he could make meaningful change in 4 or 8 years then why the heck did he apply for the job?

Because he didn't understand at the time that the president isn't in control of the government.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 11, 2013, 01:52:02 PM
But it is starting:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324522504579002653564348842.html


Perhaps.  But when you take into account his initial reactions (lecturing us on how we should expect and accept such intrusions) it's hard to think this is anything but posturing.  I'll keep watch, but at this time I'm not hopeful.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 11, 2013, 01:54:34 PM
Because he didn't understand at the time that the president isn't in control of the government.

Have you see any sign (other than grey hair and more frequent anger outbursts) he understands it now?

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 11, 2013, 10:48:14 PM
Have you see any sign (other than grey hair and more frequent anger outbursts) he understands it now?

That's the wrong question to ask.

The question you should be asking is why isn't the president able to effectively control or manage the government?
Why is the government telling the president what to do rather than it being the other way around?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 12, 2013, 09:42:34 AM
That's the wrong question to ask.

The question you should be asking is why isn't the president able to effectively control or manage the government?
Why is the government telling the president what to do rather than it being the other way around?

To me that answer is obvious and it was obvious from the first day he declared his candidacy.  He didn't have the background or credentials to effectively lead those with essentially more knowledge and experience in government.  The office of the President is set up so they don't "control" the government.   It's set up so they "lead" the government.  And the man is not an effective leader.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 12, 2013, 10:33:38 AM
The question you should be asking is why isn't the president able to effectively control or manage the government?
Why is the government telling the president what to do rather than it being the other way around?

The illusion that the president is supposed to "control or manage the government" is one shared by most people who know nothing about the U.S. Constitution or U.S. history. Article 2 of the Constitution charges the president to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." In other words, the president's job is to enforce the laws, not make them. Congress makes the laws. The president can veto bills brought before him for signing, but if a large enough part of the congress disagrees with the president's veto, congress can override the veto and turn the bill into law. Even if the president disagrees with congress's override, he's still required under the Constitution to enforce the law.

In other words, "the government," embodied in the congress, is supposed to tell the president what to do.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 12, 2013, 11:31:42 AM
The illusion that the president is supposed to "control or manage the government" is one shared by most people who know nothing about the U.S. Constitution or U.S. history. Article 2 of the Constitution charges the president to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." In other words, the president's job is to enforce the laws, not make them. Congress makes the laws. The president can veto bills brought before him for signing, but if a large enough part of the congress disagrees with the president's veto, congress can override the veto and turn the bill into law. Even if the president disagrees with congress's override, he's still required under the Constitution to enforce the law.

In other words, "the government," embodied in the congress, is supposed to tell the president what to do.

If that's the case then what's happening should be what is/was to be expected.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 12, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
Not exactly. Remember, the president is to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed."
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero? Yes.
Post by: dreed on August 16, 2013, 08:43:01 AM
In case there was any doubt as to whether Snowden was right in calling attention to the NSA's behaviour:

NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=81209.0)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 16, 2013, 08:59:46 PM
over 15000 views, I'm post 500,  What were we calling him again?
Richard Snoden has earned his place in the annals of LL
He's a leader alright, dismantling the security state by simply exposing it.
No one anywhere has the right to any privacy is where this is heading.
I hope not only Richard beats the rap,
I hope he goes around speaking like Angela Davis, eventually teaching some obscure science class at Berkeley or something,
write a book and make millions, expose those hacks the FEINs in the process,
ugh,
I once was taunted to go live somewhere else if I didn't like it here, if the leadership of my country somehow made it unlivable to me.
No, I prefer to live the truth as I see it.
Review and dismiss the warrants against Richard,
bring him home the heroe he is
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 17, 2013, 12:03:56 PM
What were we calling him again?

Well, we've been calling him Richard right along...from the start, despite the fact that his name is Edward.  ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 17, 2013, 12:21:09 PM
Well, we've been calling him Richard right along...from the start, despite the fact that his name is Edward.  ;)

When hiding, use an alias... Duh! ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 17, 2013, 03:58:12 PM
When hiding, use an alias... Duh! ;D


Then, you can't be a hero.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: stamper on August 18, 2013, 04:55:54 AM
Better to call him Richard than a Dick. ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 18, 2013, 09:12:57 AM
W.E.B. Du Bois:
“How shall Integrity face Oppression? What shall Honesty do in the face of Deception, Decency in the face of Insult, Self-Defense before Blows? How shall Desert and Accomplishment meet Despising, Detraction, and Lies? What shall Virtue do to meet Brute Force? There are so many answers and so contradictory; and such differences for those on the one hand who meet questions similar to this once a year or once a decade, and those who face them hourly and daily.”
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 18, 2013, 12:19:55 PM
W.E.B. Du Bois:
“How shall Integrity face Oppression? What shall Honesty do in the face of Deception, Decency in the face of Insult, Self-Defense before Blows? How shall Desert and Accomplishment meet Despising, Detraction, and Lies? What shall Virtue do to meet Brute Force? There are so many answers and so contradictory; and such differences for those on the one hand who meet questions similar to this once a year or once a decade, and those who face them hourly and daily.”



A perfect rationale for not seeking self-employment.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 18, 2013, 05:49:34 PM
hey Rob as usual, I'm several paces behind-
So today, I had the chance to renew lingering doubts about the heavy handed secret gubmint of yours and mine as bedfellows.
Stopped Greenwalds partner today at Heathrow, held him for 9 hours, confiscated all of his electronic equipment, didn't arrest hi, but questioned him for 9 hours, without a lawyer present, done by an anonymous person identified only by a badge number.
Now is anyone worried yet?
No?
No one stopped you or your loved ones right?
List of corrupt agencies/individuals engaged in mendacious behavior eclipses those not.
All up and down the line...
I had terrible cannelloni for dessert Rob,
the red sauce was awesome but the dang pastry---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQSGw0hMd_I
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 19, 2013, 05:21:03 AM
hey Rob as usual, I'm several paces behind-
So today, I had the chance to renew lingering doubts about the heavy handed secret gubmint of yours and mine as bedfellows.
Stopped Greenwalds partner today at Heathrow, held him for 9 hours, confiscated all of his electronic equipment, didn't arrest hi, but questioned him for 9 hours, without a lawyer present, done by an anonymous person identified only by a badge number.
Now is anyone worried yet?
No?
No one stopped you or your loved ones right?
List of corrupt agencies/individuals engaged in mendacious behavior eclipses those not.
All up and down the line...
I had terrible cannelloni for dessert Rob,
the red sauce was awesome but the dang pastry---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQSGw0hMd_I


You have to be careful what you eat!

In the 80s, when we moved to Spain, I used to do very frequent flights from here to Britain and back.

Arriving in Glasgow on one such, accompanied by my son aged about 17 or 18, we were both stopped at customs. The guy started to look at our stuff, and I smiled at him and asked: is it the beard and the jeans? He laughed back, and said nothing. He didn't have to; I understood.

So yes, if you choose to make yourself look like a thug then expect to be treated at least, at the very least, with suspicion!

I saw the images of the two guys you mention on Sky News this morning, the reporter and his ‘partner’ who, if you’ll forgive me saying so, looks the perfect stereotype of the middle-eastern terrorist! In Britain, there is this constant complaint that swarthy, and more so very swarthy, gentlemen are stopped more often than the very pale variety on these spot searches that get carried out in the pursuit of public safety. That the crime figures would indicate that the fuzz have a point seems not to matter: the 'concerned' perception is all about complexion. But then, that’s also become a very profitable aspect of law practice.

Odd, isn’t it, how pale people spend so much time, money, risk and nervous energy trying to look tanned. Come to think of it, I might have added that observation to those doubting Thomases who, on recent threads, criticised my level of devotion to the gentle art I thought we all shared here. One of the attractions of catching calendars was the chance to get the hell out of the gloom and get brown, and then, get this: show it off back at the ranch! It did my ego good, but I suspect, in retrospect, that it did me absolutely no favours back in the ad. agency offices I had to visit… tan looks so much more, well, tanned, against white T-shirts. Works well against black too, just in case anyone is interested. When and where everyone else bears the same tonality, the value is nil.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 19, 2013, 02:31:46 PM
We seem to have reached the conclusion that the answer to the question, assuming we get the first name right, is definitely "yes".

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on August 19, 2013, 07:54:47 PM
I'm still confused as to what a "heroe" is. Is it a woman with an œ?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 19, 2013, 08:22:41 PM
I'm still confused as to what a "heroe" is. Is it a woman with an œ?

No, it is what you type when you want to give the impression of using the word "hero" but don't actually want to, so you misspell it.

We seem to have reached the conclusion that the answer to the question, assuming we get the first name right, is definitely "yes".

But if you had to choose which word you applied "yes" to, which would it be?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 20, 2013, 03:49:06 AM
But if you had to choose which word you applied "yes" to, which would it be?

Definitely either the fifth or the eighth. Perhaps both, of course.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 20, 2013, 03:57:38 AM
Trouble is, limiting the choice to two words eliminates a more accurate third option.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 20, 2013, 06:43:50 PM
Here's Rachel Maddow making an ancillary point on our freedom to speak out;
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/#52797608

In full, there should be an international tribunal to bring those responsible for these reprehensible acts of state terrorism and spying up on formal charges.
Down to the last one of them.
From their comfy offices, to their shadowy culture-
dismantle the police state now before it's too late.
It wasn't that long ago that we were hearing people call their countrymen traitors and cowards for opposing the war in Iraq.
Public officials should be held responsible for what they did in the aftermath of the tragedy of the World Trade Center and attack on American soil.
Funny how since that time millions have died with hardly a whimper from our society.
The way we value human lives is shameful.  Richard Heroe should get a medal and when the nobel peace prize is rescinded from Obama - our rick heroe should get the very one that liar and hypocrite has today.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 20, 2013, 07:05:35 PM
In full, there should be an international tribunal to bring those responsible for these reprehensible acts of state terrorism and spying up on formal charges.

It's called the "world court," Rocco. It has no jurisdiction and no ability to enforce its rulings, which is a damned good thing when you consider that its a political organization with its own agenda. Maybe we can let Bashar al-Assad bring everybody up on charges. Don't you think he'd make a marvelous judge? No screwing around; firing squad outside the door.

Ah. . . The world's full of wishy-washy dreamers.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 20, 2013, 07:34:28 PM
It's called the "world court," Rocco. It has no jurisdiction and no ability to enforce its rulings, which is a damned good thing when you consider that its a political organization with its own agenda...

Which the US apparently has no problem advocation for and using, but only against its enemies. As for "no ability to enforce," I do not know... tell that to many war criminals (or made so by the "political organization with its own agenda") who are in their prisons or died there.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 20, 2013, 09:11:29 PM
Thanks for pointing that out, Slobodan. Rocco ought to be overjoyed.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ed B on August 20, 2013, 10:56:22 PM
A government that spies on it's own people without cause is corrupt in every sense of the word and the founding fathers of the US knew this when they drafted the constitution. Some of the responses earlier in this thread about it being ok for the government to scan emails and invade privacy because "I'm not doing anything wrong" is shocking to me. I have to wonder if it would be ok for a police officer to look in the windows of your home to see if you are "doing anything wrong" would be ok? Would it be ok to open your mail to make sure you aren't committing a crime?

Rights can be taken away in one fell swoop or chipped away a little at a time. Neither is acceptable. Is Snowdon a hero? Time will tell but when businesses close down because they can't guaranty privacy because of government intervention, we should all be worried.

http://www.techhive.com/article/2047024/tech-legal-news-site-groklaw-shutting-down-because-email-privacy-is-impossible.html
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 20, 2013, 11:01:51 PM
hardly overjoyed

distressed, inconsolable, unwavering, pointed, badgering, undeceived, exhausted, final.

The indecency of our own government has no limits.  From bombings to kidnappings to an all encompassing harassment and surveillance c state-
The lines are drawn,
just like our fine leaders have clearly demonstrated time and again in this losing game.
They may try and stop Greenwalds testimony I suppose,
But, I'm thinking not, and when that happens, look out.
Maybe then we'll see the change part of that bullshit campaign slogan
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 21, 2013, 09:32:03 AM
I'm always a little surprised when people quote the Founding Fathers as if they had some special take on the realities of contemporary life.

Hell's teeth, it's all that the Ten Commandments can do to stay currently applicable, and look at the early start, simplicity and broadness of interpretational compass they permit!

Had those fabled tablets of stone not already been long remodelled into building blocks for some Red Sea resort development, I'm sure they would have been just as useful and quotable - enough even for the olde Reader's Digest to have included!

Then was then, and now is now. Everything changes, and to hope otherwise is denial; I know a lot about that trick, in fact I sometimes consider it a speciality, one of my extra survival skills.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on August 21, 2013, 09:54:45 AM
I have a really hard time taking seriously the notion that access to all this data will protect people in the first place. All our law enforcement establishments know where the biker gangs are, they know where organized crime figures are, they know where the crooked corporations are, hell, newspapers write articles about those very things every day, it's no secret. Why can't the various "security" professionals get enough data on THOSE guys to get them arrested? If they can't do that with people who are breaking known laws, and usually have been for a while, the notion that they will find previously unknown terrorists seems farfetched to me. And given all the "private" security companies involved in this game, who send their invoices to various branches of government, well, it all spells boondoggle to me.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 21, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
Because, Robert, evidence produced without a warrant is not admissable in a court of law. Drones, however, are much less scrupulous. And if something goes wrong, they can always blame it on a disgruntled drone.  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 21, 2013, 10:46:25 AM
People who talk about all this as if it's a law enforcement issue simply don't understand that we're at war. 9/11 should have disabused them about that, but evidently it takes more than a 9/11 to penetrate their skulls.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 21, 2013, 11:41:05 AM
People who talk about all this as if it's a law enforcement issue simply don't understand that we're at war. 9/11 should have disabused them about that, but evidently it takes more than a 9/11 to penetrate their skulls.

Yes, we're at war but who with?

Arguably the government.

Going by what government is doing, it is at war with anyone that wants to know the truth about what government does, even though government is there through the will of the people via elections to do the will of the people.

As we all know, truth is the first casualty in war.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 21, 2013, 11:45:43 AM
I have a really hard time taking seriously the notion that access to all this data will protect people in the first place. All our law enforcement establishments know where the biker gangs are, they know where organized crime figures are, they know where the crooked corporations are, hell, newspapers write articles about those very things every day, it's no secret. Why can't the various "security" professionals get enough data on THOSE guys to get them arrested? If they can't do that with people who are breaking known laws, and usually have been for a while, the notion that they will find previously unknown terrorists seems farfetched to me. And given all the "private" security companies involved in this game, who send their invoices to various branches of government, well, it all spells boondoggle to me.

If you got rid of all the bad people then there would be no need for police, etc, would there?

Further, you're assuming that those that "know" about all of this want to get rid of it and don't in some way benefit from the corruption.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 21, 2013, 12:27:38 PM
... simply don't understand that we're at war...

Ah, here it is, my bogeyman theory in action!

We are "at war" with terrorism, drugs, poverty, corruption... in other words, we are at war with...life itself.

No, Russ, we are not at war. We are just experiencing normal life. Part of which is crime, terrorism, poverty, corruption, drug use... which all require a normal, constant response. Wars are extraordinary, temporary events, requiring extraordinary measures. Proclaiming a constant state of war is a pretext for granting extraordinary powers to the powers that be.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on August 21, 2013, 12:33:37 PM
Because, Robert, evidence produced without a warrant is not admissable in a court of law. Drones, however, are much less scrupulous. And if something goes wrong, they can always blame it on a disgruntled drone.  ;D

I understand what you're getting at, but given that they're collecting this data anyway, and that it is legal to do so (isn't it?), you'd think they'd find a way to extract some useful information out of it, so that they could find some admissible evidence against people we already know are "bad guys". Hell, being able to do that would count as really good "marketing" for them to continue doing so, I would have thought.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 21, 2013, 12:49:56 PM
Now seriously, Robert, you are actually right more than you know. They've been already doing it for years. It is known as "parallel construction"  (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805) method, in which:

Quote
A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans... law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin...  "You'd be told only, ‘Be at a certain truck stop at a certain time and look for a certain vehicle.' And so we'd alert the state police to find an excuse to stop that vehicle, and then have a drug dog search it,"
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 21, 2013, 01:47:01 PM
No, Russ, we are not at war. We are just experiencing normal life. Part of which is crime, terrorism, poverty, corruption, drug use... which all require a normal, constant response.

That's such a crock, Slobodan, I hardly can believe you actually believe it. At 83 I know all about normal life, including crime, poverty, corruption (especially at the moment in DC), and drug use. After 26 years in the Air Force and three combat tours I know all about war too. Believe me, we're at war. You'll believe it when the next 9/11 happens. In the meantime enjoy your "normal life" but watch your back.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 21, 2013, 04:26:52 PM
Believe me, we're at war.

being born in a land where millions were killed, believe me, you are lying  ;)

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 21, 2013, 04:29:46 PM
Ah, here it is, my bogeyman theory in action!

We are "at war" with terrorism, drugs, poverty, corruption... in other words, we are at war with...life itself.

No, Russ, we are not at war. We are just experiencing normal life. Part of which is crime, terrorism, poverty, corruption, drug use... which all require a normal, constant response. Wars are extraordinary, temporary events, requiring extraordinary measures. Proclaiming a constant state of war is a pretext for granting extraordinary powers to the powers that be.

come on... it turns out that "1984" was about a different country after all  ;D ... that state of a "permanent war" with something, etc...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 21, 2013, 05:38:09 PM
being born in a land where millions were killed, believe me, you are lying  ;)

How long were you in the Russian army, Vlad, and where did you serve? Was there combat there?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 21, 2013, 05:42:20 PM
Of course we are at war; it's a war between the modern society and one still rooted in the middle-ages, with all the potential for disaster that entails.

It used to be wars between countries for territorial gain, between factions for domestic power; today, it's about one form of one broader religion vs. pretty much the rest of mankind. It's isn't about territory, money or anything else other than the power over men's minds. Especially over the independence of thought. Can't have independence; good grief, not that - must crush it right away!

Old hatreds born of competition and trade would almost be a relief.

Rob  C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 21, 2013, 09:40:57 PM
Of course we are at war; it's a war between the modern society and one still rooted in the middle-ages...

You mean the Crusades? I didn't know your Golden Age dates that far back ;)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 21, 2013, 09:53:50 PM
That's such a crock, Slobodan, I hardly can believe you actually believe it. At 83 I know all about normal life, including crime, poverty, corruption (especially at the moment in DC), and drug use. After 26 years in the Air Force and three combat tours I know all about war too. Believe me, we're at war. You'll believe it when the next 9/11 happens. In the meantime enjoy your "normal life" but watch your back.

Russ, you might be older, but I have more experience with terrorism. We had our first terrorist bombing in a crowded movie theater in Belgrade back in the sixties. First embassy hostage situation and murder of the Ambassador in Sweden in the early seventies. Your buddies bombed a civilian target about several hundred yards from my home recently.

London has been living under terrorism for decades. Spain as well. Germany and Italy under Red Brigades. Just as well as many other countries in the world. For all of us, it is a fact of life. Keep calm and carry on, Brits would say. But of course, when it happens to you, for the first time, you act like you are the only one in the history of mankind experiencing it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 21, 2013, 10:18:51 PM
A federal judge sharply rebuked the National Security Agency in 2011 for gathering and storing tens of thousands of Americans’ e-mails each year as it hunted for terrorists and other legitimate foreign targets, according to the top secret court ruling, which was made public on Wednesday.

2011 ruling found an NSA program unconstitutional (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/2011-ruling-found-an-nsa-program-unconstitutional.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 22, 2013, 02:20:47 AM
So, no Pentagon papers, no Watergate revelations, no Iran-Contra information, no inside view of the Enron implosion, no public awareness of the willful negligence leading to the BP oil spill, is that what you want? Not me.
No, these would have all still happened if their import was real.  A government can not operate either domestically or internationally with 100% transparency.   At least not to their advantage.  So we must have "secrets" and classifications in which to categorize and file.   It will never be up to the rank and file worker, the low man on the totem pole, the contract worker with limited experience, or the lowest ranking military member.. it will never be up to them WHICH secrets they share when they shouldn't.  This is way above their pay grade and frankly I don't think Snowden or any of the current crop of "whistle blowers" has the experience or knowledge to put our governments at risk by breeching our national securities.  However.. if they feel that strongly that they're willing to sacrifice themselves knowing the consequences.. and we can't stop them before they do.. then such breeches will occur.

I spent >20 years as a cryptologic/intel officer and during the time held what we call a "TS/SCI" clearance level.,  TS is for top secret, and SCI is for specially compartmented information.   The TS is in effect 100% of the time, and the SCI is given on a need to know.. as you're involved with or exposed to different projects.    There ARE times you don't agree with your government.  There ARE avenues to pursue policies you disagree with.  The wheels of government are like a slow moving oil tanker.. they take a long time to change or slow down or stop.  I can't imagine Snowden used the avenues provided to make known his complaints AND waited long enough for action to be taken.  Not if he was at all experienced in the community.. which is what you need to be before deciding which of your nations secrets you are about to expose.

However, if I'd made known such a complaint and wasn't given feedback/guidance and the policy remained.  AND I felt strongly enough it was hurting/damaging innocents.. especially my own countrymen.. and enough time had passed without such feedback or change.  Then I would take the next least harmful (to my country) route that had a good potential for effecting change.  And it would have been the saddest day of my life.. as if my father had lied to me and I took action against him.. or my mother.  I suppose the only thing worse.. is if my god had lied to me.   Before changing citizenship, family, churches or gods.. you need to absolutely believe your complaints have fallen on deaf ears.. and then I'd ask to speak to their supervisor and on up the chain until no one else would talk to me.  And I'd document the hell out of it..

Based on my own experience and my own beliefs.. I just don't feel Snowden and especially Manning acted in the best interest of their country.  I regretfully say they acted in the best interest of other countries.   And I've yet to see a single good thing come from this.   Ruined lives, forever branded a traitor, all for a country without the political honesty to properly punish those who broke our laws with these policies.. What did he expect to happen.. another measure of his inexperience.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 22, 2013, 04:16:04 AM
You mean the Crusades? I didn't know your Golden Age dates that far back ;)

For your record: I think my Golden Age dates from the mid-fifties; I know for a fact that it ended eleven years ago.

YMMV, and as for the Crusaders, they did leave some impressive architecture behind them, as many tourist organisations are happy to exploit today. But then, at that period, there was no automotive oil industry to pour its balm onto troubled, whispering sands.

But today, imagine the perfect scenario that has been denied all sides: lands with massive supplies that are there for the selling and that they are perfectly happy to sell; a market that's ever growing and willing to buy... but what do we get instead? fucking bombs and millions dead and/or displaced even without foreign intervention... and today on the news I see reports of new chemical attacks. Foreign intervention? Yes, in watered-down resolutions that have no muscle; in cynical political stances based on God alone knows what distorted realities of imaginary future trade or special relationships. Another Iraq? I don't think so, somehow. It's my guess that the reality of the irrationality of the principal participants has finally been recognized by those with the power to intervene. I think they realise it just ain't worth it. Go in and thousands die and you get the blame; stay out and they still die, and you still get the blame.

And now we learn that the Japanese radiation leaks are way more severe than imagined, oozing into the Pacific and en route elsewhere... Does anyone else remember the Ava pic On the Beach?

What's the point anymore? Let's just put on Hotel California one more time.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 22, 2013, 07:53:47 AM
A government can not operate either domestically or internationally with 100% transparency.   At least not to their advantage.  So we must have "secrets" and classifications in which to categorize and file.

Correct. There is some information that is held by the government that is required to be held secret to protect not only the country and its citizens but the industry too.

Not all information should be public knowledge, but when and where the government decides to break the law, lie to its people, deceive its people and ignore the constitution of the country, information about such actions needs to be made available to the public so that the public that elected the government is able to make a proper decision as to whether the government that the public elected into office is acting in the best interests of the public and should remain.

Quote
This is way above their pay grade and frankly I don't think Snowden or any of the current crop of "whistle blowers" has the experience or knowledge to put our governments at risk by breeching our national securities.  However.. if they feel that strongly that they're willing to sacrifice themselves knowing the consequences.. and we can't stop them before they do.. then such breeches will occur.

Well it would be an even simpler matter for the government to stick to keeping its actions within the bounds of the constitution. If it did that then people such as Snowden and Manning wouldn't feel compelled to speak out.

Quote
I spent >20 years as a cryptologic/intel officer and during the time held what we call a "TS/SCI" clearance level.

I know for a fact that mentioning such a thing whilst holding a clearance is the quickest way to lose it. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone publicly claiming to have held a security clearance never actually held such a clearance level. The first rule of having a security clearance is that you don't talk about it to anyone, especially not in public forums. Whether or not that also applies historically, I don't know for a fact but I've read books by those that have and nobody ever mentions them like this.

Quote
I can't imagine Snowden used the avenues provided to make known his complaints AND waited long enough for action to be taken.

Imagine that you are Snowden and that the issues you want to complain about seem to have the stamp of approval from the highest level. What do you do? Do you think "yes, I'll tell my boss or his boss and something will get done about it."? Doubtful. When the management chain is complicit then the only avenue for recourse in making a disease known is to go via other avenues.

Quote
Based on my own experience and my own beliefs.. I just don't feel Snowden and especially Manning acted in the best interest of their country.  I regretfully say they acted in the best interest of other countries.   And I've yet to see a single good thing come from this.   Ruined lives, forever branded a traitor, all for a country without the political honesty to properly punish those who broke our laws with these policies.. What did he expect to happen.. another measure of his inexperience.

It would seem that Snowden understood that there would be ramifications as he fled the USA before anything was announced. Both of them have sacrificed the better part of their lives because they think that in doing so, focus will be brought to bear on aspects of the government that need to be reviewed. They took an oath to protect the constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic and they're doing what they think is necessary to protect the constitution from a very large and powerful domestic enemy of the constitution.

That you say "I've yet to see a single good thing come from this" is the problem. It is a real problem. The president has asked a man that has already lied to congress to head up a review of the NSA. Has anyone outside of government applauded this appointment or said that they believe it will fix anything?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 22, 2013, 09:08:26 AM
Not all information should be public knowledge, but when and where the government decides to break the law, lie to its people, deceive its people and ignore the constitution of the country, information about such actions needs to be made available to the public so that the public that elected the government is able to make a proper decision as to whether the government that the public elected into office is acting in the best interests of the public and should remain.

Try to stay with the logic of what I'm saying.  Or rather try not to argue something I never said was otherwise.

Quote
I know for a fact that mentioning such a thing whilst holding a clearance is the quickest way to lose it. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone publicly claiming to have held a security clearance never actually held such a clearance level. The first rule of having a security clearance is that you don't talk about it to anyone, especially not in public forums. Whether or not that also applies historically, I don't know for a fact but I've read books by those that have and nobody ever mentions them like this.

Apparently you don't know for a fact.  And your choice of books is misleading you.  A standard entry in any resume in the industry is to list your clearance level.  These are posted on the internet for anyone to see.  Also, when wearing the uniform there are 'rating' insignia worn by every member of the community for anyone to see.. google the rating and it says what clearance levels are required for the job.  There are many other ways an even halfway astute public would know.  I'd recommend you improve the quality of books you read or at least have the chops to know when they're writing for effect..

Quote
Imagine that you are Snowden and that the issues you want to complain about seem to have the stamp of approval from the highest level. What do you do?


When you are indoctrinated at any clearance level or granted access to compartmented information you are given a path to take if such a thing occurs.. and are told the penalties involved.


Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 22, 2013, 09:48:54 AM
A standard entry in any resume in the industry is to list your clearance level.

true indeed, I am reading resumes on a daily basis as a part of my work in an IT consulting company and it is so... so do relevant people from certain countries for sure  ;) ... I was once subject to a regular FBI investigation about "penetration of the US software supply chain" (that much somebody forgot to white out in a paperwork that I obtained later through FOIPA), based I think on the place of my birth  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 22, 2013, 10:07:12 AM
When Bradley Manning gets out, he has a free ride to college, a support group, relative fame and will be able to rest on his laurels here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
99% of the rest of US prisoners will get nothing.
Food stamps...
But enough about that guy and on to the real issue here.  Will exposing the truth and reporting it be punished?
That's all, not the reasons, not the rhetoric, just the question,
will whistle blowing and reporting be punished?
In Manning showing the world the incompetence of many public servants, and the degree of incompetence, he broke the ice.
Now Snowden shows us the apparatus and puts another piece in the puzzle.  Won't be long until the whole country will have to admit the shortcomings and failures of our elected and unelected public servants.
Why can't Bush or Cheney fly to Switzerland?
Vermont even said state troopers might try and arrest them at one time.
Ha- not a whimper until you thought they were looking at you looking at porn...
talk about hypocrites-
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 22, 2013, 10:33:33 AM
I just don't feel Snowden and especially Manning acted in the best interest of their country.
you just need to acknowledge that what they understand as "their" country and what you understand as "your" country are not the same thing... going back to a beaten example of a Nazi Germany... imagine one crypto technician, a devoted NSDAP member, etc... and his feelings about White Roses for example  ;D ... don't be offended... that technician was just loyal to "his" country.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: RSL on August 22, 2013, 11:14:56 AM
I know for a fact that mentioning such a thing whilst holding a clearance is the quickest way to lose it. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone publicly claiming to have held a security clearance never actually held such a clearance level. The first rule of having a security clearance is that you don't talk about it to anyone, especially not in public forums. Whether or not that also applies historically, I don't know for a fact but I've read books by those that have and nobody ever mentions them like this.

Dreed, maybe you missed the fact that Steve said he "held" that kind of clearance, not that he "holds" it. In my 26 Air Force years I held several advanced clearances, beyond top secret, and now that I'm long retired there's no restriction against my stating that fact. On the other hand, there are names and phrases I'm still prohibited from using, even though their significance is long past, and I'd suspect the same thing's true for Steve. Of course, since Steve's only twelve years old, he may not be as far away from those clearances as I am.

This whole thread has gone far beyond ridiculous. . . into worlds of the bizarre.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 22, 2013, 11:32:17 AM
Russ, you might be older, but I have more experience with terrorism. We had our first terrorist bombing in a crowded movie theater in Belgrade back in the sixties. First embassy hostage situation and murder of the Ambassador in Sweden in the early seventies.

Yes, Slobodan, bombs going off are terrifying experiences as are hostage situations and murders. But so are earthquakes, refinery explosions, lightning strikes, flash floods and wildfires, the last two of which I've experienced in person over the past two years. But none of these events are combat, or even close to it.

Quote
Your buddies bombed a civilian target about several hundred yards from my home recently.

No kidding! Were you there? Which "buddies" were these and why did they bomb that particular target? If they really were my "buddies" then there probably was a good reason for the attack.

Quote
London has been living under terrorism for decades. . .

Yes, England has been suffering for a many years as a result of its ever-increasing political correctness. Unfortunately the U.S. is suffering the same kind of absurdity, and under the current administration the problem's been accelerating. There'll come a point at which England either will wake up and fight back (that's called "war," Slobodan), or give in and become a caliphate under sharia. I'm sure Winston is spinning in his grave.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 22, 2013, 12:35:08 PM
you just need to acknowledge that what they understand as "their" country and what you understand as "your" country are not the same thing... going back to a beaten example of a Nazi Germany... imagine one crypto technician, a devoted NSDAP member, etc... and his feelings about White Roses for example  ;D ... don't be offended... that technician was just loyal to "his" country.

1.  Generally I'm very careful which words I use and specifically why I use them.  "Their" was used for effect.  It would only make a difference to someone trying to understand.

2.  The problem with trying to draw parallels where government, time, culture, and other significant variables are concerned..  is that they are.   
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 22, 2013, 12:40:12 PM
Russ, you might be older, but I have more experience with terrorism. We had our first terrorist bombing in a crowded movie theater in Belgrade back in the sixties. First embassy hostage situation and murder of the Ambassador in Sweden in the early seventies. Your buddies bombed a civilian target about several hundred yards from my home recently.

you shall then remember Franz Ferdinand, I shall remember Alexander II, he shall remember Lincoln, etc, etc
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 22, 2013, 12:40:47 PM
Dreed, maybe you missed the fact that Steve said he "held" that kind of clearance, not that he "holds" it. In my 26 Air Force years I held several advanced clearances, beyond top secret, and now that I'm long retired there's no restriction against my stating that fact. On the other hand, there are names and phrases I'm still prohibited from using, even though their significance is long past, and I'd suspect the same thing's true for Steve. Of course, since Steve's only twelve years old, he may not be as far away from those clearances as I am.

This whole thread has gone far beyond ridiculous. . . into worlds of the bizarre.


1.  It's sometimes fun, other times annoying, when you see the same names/phrases/projects being discussed on the various history type channels..  often with a broader understanding and more accuracy that those who were there held.

2.  I didn't know what you were talking about so I took a look at my profile and there it is. 12 years old.  How does that get there?  Maybe an example of an Admin's sense of humour after reading my posts..  :D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 22, 2013, 01:37:28 PM
Yeah, but you can change it and come clean.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2013, 02:06:06 PM
... If they really were my "buddies" then there probably was a good reason for the attack...

"My country, right or wrong," Russ?

As for a "good reason," you can always find one... that's called rationalization. I call it terrorism. Targeting purely civilian installations, with the goal to terrorize the population enough to force it to demand a change of policy favorable to you... the very definition of terrorism.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on August 22, 2013, 02:30:19 PM
Yeah, but you can change it and come clean.

Aye.. I know what happened.  The system left a default date and I didn't change it.  For reasons of identity theft I didn't use my actual birthday on the web.. I'd just leave it blank.  Now I have an "internet birth date" I use which is close enough..
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2013, 02:31:16 PM
you shall then remember Franz Ferdinand, I shall remember Alexander II, he shall remember Lincoln, etc, etc

Huh!?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 22, 2013, 03:43:00 PM
When Bradley Manning gets out.....

.....who will pay for his gender reassignment surgery?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2013, 03:57:40 PM
.....who will pay for his gender reassignment surgery?

So, in his case, we are not talking about a hero, but a pussy? ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: mezzoduomo on August 22, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323665504579028563211609706.html

Slobo,

I was not editorializing. He has asked for gender reassignment, which can be funded under certain circumstances by the aforementioned city by the bay.

http://blog.sfgate.com/cityinsider/2012/11/17/san-francisco-to-cover-sex-change-surgeries-for-all-uninsured-transgender-residents/
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 22, 2013, 05:45:11 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323665504579028563211609706.html

Slobo,

I was not editorializing. He has asked for gender reassignment, which can be funded under certain circumstances by the aforementioned city by the bay.

http://blog.sfgate.com/cityinsider/2012/11/17/san-francisco-to-cover-sex-change-surgeries-for-all-uninsured-transgender-residents/


Perfect disguise for a new life!

It'll probably count as a mitigatory factor in his early release. In Britain, he'd already have a fighting series of competing tabloids looking for his exclusive tail tale with a secondary string of Lawyers 4 U doing much the same. I sometimes feel sick when I look at the world of publications, in which I include television.

I just re-ran the recent McCullin video from the BBC... there was a man with guts, moral courage and the greater urge to make a difference. As photographer, self-taught and all the better for it. What a difference between his life and the Manning one.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 22, 2013, 07:04:54 PM
you just need to acknowledge that what they understand as "their" country and what you understand as "your" country are not the same thing... going back to a beaten example of a Nazi Germany... imagine one crypto technician, a devoted NSDAP member, etc... and his feelings about White Roses for example  ;D ... don't be offended... that technician was just loyal to "his" country.

Well said!

Nazi Germany and what happened as a result is why Europeans understand the meaning of privacy.

Unfortunately for Americans (and the UK & others), their country has not been through such a dark period and thus the people don't understand why privacy is important. You might say that Europe has a "social memory" of why privacy is important. Similarly because of how the USA was founded, the right to bear arms is part of the constitution whereas other countries don't enshrine this right.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on August 23, 2013, 04:33:46 AM
Well said!

Nazi Germany and what happened as a result is why Europeans understand the meaning of privacy.

Unfortunately for Americans (and the UK & others), their country has not been through such a dark period and thus the people don't understand why privacy is important. You might say that Europe has a "social memory" of why privacy is important. Similarly because of how the USA was founded, the right to bear arms is part of the constitution whereas other countries don't enshrine this right.


And I thought I'd just switched back to LuLa from The Onion!

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 23, 2013, 05:03:03 AM
For all of those saying that PRISM is necessary to protect America from terrorists and that it will only be used for such comes this:

New Zealand police affidavits show use of PRISM for surveillance (http://www.itnews.com.au/News/354407,nz-police-affidavits-show-use-of-prism-for-surveillance.aspx)

i.e PRISM (the NSA spying thing that is used to find terrorists) was used against the citizen of another country and that the said person is quite clearly not a terrorists - well except if you're the MPAA/RIAA because then the person accused (Kim Dotcomm) is possibly worse than a terrorist because his file sharing website allowed people to share files and breach copyright provisions and we all know that democracy and life as we know it in the USA will come to an end if people share movies and songs....
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 23, 2013, 09:39:57 AM
lets not be naive,
there is no evidence that law enforcement and its allies don't engage in illegal and inappropriate actions daily,
here in Oakland the cops are a wild gang of thugs,
and the denial that our government is not only capable of, but directly proven responsible for acts of terrorism,
this is a country led by war criminals,
conceived by brutal racists, steeped in MURDER among less seemly odds,
and now
when the veil is lifted you all seem shocked.
All those yes votes in congress that were spurred by a sense of fear of being the party with a tragedy during its watch.
Meanwhile thousands of people here in the us starve,
people go untreated for easily treated health issues,
in cali our esteemed gov is promoting public private prison partnerships, bodies for $$$-
you people make me laugh.
If it weren't that you thought they could hear or see something about you personally, you'd be egging them on like during the last nightmare administration.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 23, 2013, 11:40:15 AM
Similarly because of how the USA was founded, the right to bear arms is part of the constitution whereas other countries don't enshrine this right.

well, USA was founded on an assumption that only white males of certain means, origin and religion can decide (not some females or negroes mind you)... the same goes for arms, assumptions back then are not exactly how it turned out today.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 23, 2013, 11:43:11 AM
Huh!?
you started to tell about who, where and when experienced terrorism... so why not go back further in history
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 23, 2013, 11:56:54 AM
you started to tell about who, where and when experienced terrorism... so why not go back further in history

No, I told about MY experience with terrorism (indirect, of course, in my life time, though, and affecting my environment).
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on August 23, 2013, 05:14:15 PM
For all of those saying that PRISM is necessary to protect America from terrorists and that it will only be used for such comes this:

New Zealand police affidavits show use of PRISM for surveillance (http://www.itnews.com.au/News/354407,nz-police-affidavits-show-use-of-prism-for-surveillance.aspx)

i.e PRISM (the NSA spying thing that is used to find terrorists) was used against the citizen of another country and that the said person is quite clearly not a terrorists - well except if you're the MPAA/RIAA because then the person accused (Kim Dotcomm) is possibly worse than a terrorist because his file sharing website allowed people to share files and breach copyright provisions and we all know that democracy and life as we know it in the USA will come to an end if people share movies and songs....


Cool; now you condone theft. What are you doing in the company of photographers, some of whom need every penny their work can fetch?

As for music - the companies are powerful enough to deal with what they want to remove and leave what serves them as publicity. YouTube's full of music cancelled and music permitted to remain; you think that accidental?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on August 23, 2013, 05:28:00 PM
well, USA was founded on an assumption that only white males of certain means, origin and religion can decide (not some females or negroes mind you)... the same goes for arms, assumptions back then are not exactly how it turned out today.


Man, the entire world worked on that principle, including the black countries who sold off their own lesser (or inconvenient) citizens to the slave buyers. If you want to extend it to armaments, then yes, you're right - it's gone terribly wrong today: some of the lunatics have not only made it into some governments, they hold the armouries too.

Somehow, it seems to me that slavery, as immoral as it was (and still is, as it continues unbroken in some non-western countries), still isn't as bad as today's genocide in so many independent African 'states'. Ironic, that we in the west move away from it where some closer to the source of supply embrace it still.

Funny old world.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 24, 2013, 03:40:02 AM
Cool; now you condone theft. What are you doing in the company of photographers, some of whom need every penny their work can fetch?

Rob, I hate to say this buy copyright violations are a civil matter, not a criminal one. Just ask any professional photographer that has had to deal with such (stories from Jeff Schewe and Alain Briot can be found on this topic on this website.)

Which is to say that when you as a photographer have someone using your work in an unauthorised fashion, you sue them for copyright infringement - you don't have someone arrested for copyright infringement.

What's important here is that PRISM hasn't been used to catch terrorists but rather PRISM has been used at the behest of corporations in a civil matter that isn't even remotely related to terrorism.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 24, 2013, 08:55:57 AM
evidence doesn't matter- no amount of proof is enough-
you simply have to go through a court process to prove what's right,
then the supporters of the lies just do intellectual trapeze work when it's proved the lies are real.
It doesn't matter we torture- it doesn't matter enough that we murder, it sure doesn't matter that we ruin economies and lives by worldwide hegemony at all costs.
What America has become is shameful 
You'll all see eventually, by then,
no amount of proof will matter, photographs, official paperwork...
There is a way out though,
without blowing up the world, without using up every bit of carrying capacity of the planet,
without poisoning the world with generations of problems to come.
And people that want to be rich can still be rich,
Stop the unearned increment- the driving force behind so much of this BS
The strongest wins right?
Nothing wrong with strength,
just take it from those that have it now.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 24, 2013, 12:06:07 PM
... copyright violations are a civil matter, not a criminal one. ... you don't have someone arrested for copyright infringement.

Then you have not seen a DVD in a while ;)

Here, in the States, the first screen you see at the start of any DVD movie is this warning:
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 24, 2013, 12:20:01 PM
If your copyright isn't registered, you're on your own with a civil case, assuming you're willing to cough up for an attorney. If your copyright IS registered you can get help from the feds. Movies, of course, get special consideration since Hollywood knows how to kiss congressional ass better than the average streetwalker.

Here's a quick summary: http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/copy-corner66.htm
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 25, 2013, 12:13:53 AM
Then you have not seen a DVD in a while ;)

Here, in the States, the first screen you see at the start of any DVD movie is this warning:

Actually, you're right, I haven't watched a DVD since I left China and those that I bought in China never had that message. Strange that.

I pay to see movies where they were made to be seen and enjoyed: in cinemas.

You might note that LuLa video journals stopped being made as DVDs at about the same time. Some people can read the tea leaves and move with the times, others seem to be resisting the future.

So what is criminal copyright? The US definition seems to be here:
18 USC § 2319 - Criminal infringement of a copyright (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2319)
and my limited comprehension of Kim Dotcom and this would have trouble understanding how what he did was criminal but I suppose that depends on your perspective and is why people hire lawyers to argue in court.

If your copyright isn't registered, you're on your own with a civil case, assuming you're willing to cough up for an attorney. If your copyright IS registered you can get help from the feds. Movies, of course, get special consideration since Hollywood knows how to kiss congressional ass better than the average streetwalker.

Actually I seem to recall that Hollywood wanted to task the government with policing copyright infringement of its movies on the Internet.

The problem is that the MPAA seems to think that they own and can demand content be taken down under the DMCA even if it isn't theirs:

Hollywood studios take down Pirate Bay documentary (http://torrentfreak.com/hollywood-studios-take-down-pirate-bay-documentary-130519/)

They also seem to get upset when others in the movie industry want to legitimise such things:
Hollywood Studios Fuming Over BitTorrent, Cinedigm 'Deal With the Devil' (http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/bittorrent-cinedigm-promotion-leaves-movie-studios-fuming-87636)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 25, 2013, 08:20:58 AM
well, pull the plug, the patient is dead-

as a practical matter I have sent a letter of support to Chelsea Manning extolling the virtues of the San Francisco Bay Area, and pointing out her contingent's being chosen as the people's "Best Overall Pride Contingent Award" after this years gay pride parade.

..."The vote for the “Absolutely Fabulous Overall Contingent” was put out to the community on SF Pride's web site. BMSN was up against three other groups: Abada Capoeira, Bay Area Youth Summit, and Mormons for Marriage Equality."

Here Manning can expect to be welcomed the hero she is.  I hope she studies here at one of our universities.  I'd like to get her picture as Grand Marshal of an upcoming event upon her release.

Then there is Snowden,  smarter than Manning, less prone to emotional deficits, and now with the New York Times reporting the previously almost tabloid coverage of the scandal plagued American public institutions.
Congress, Justice, Defense all of them corrupt to its core.
It's about time we hear the truth,
and vote accordingly.  It'll take time, and I'm not sure how much of that there is,
but the writing's on the wall.
No more will the little guy in the us be tossed into the fire without at least seeing it first.
Good luck with that...

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 25, 2013, 11:47:52 AM
You know, thinking about all this crazy, US-sourced self-flagellation, I was reminded of this little ditty:

http://youtu.be/NZqVJuPNchY

Instead of all this crazy bitching about yourselves, you should be grateful that you live where you do; that you are free to bitch; that you are surrounded by and own fantastic countryside; can swim and fish and sail on two oceans and a Gulf; that opportunity exists aplenty if you show the slightest ability to seize it even in one of your two hands!

Harry H, you already have the best of pretty much everything except for a long history, and today, even for those with one, who gives a damn anymore?

Relax a bit, feel good about your country. It's still worth it, unless you sabotage it.

Rob C

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 25, 2013, 02:19:32 PM
Instead of all this crazy bitching about yourselves, you should be grateful that you live where you do; that you are currently free to bitch; that you are surrounded by and own fantastic countryside; can swim and fish and sail on two oceans and a Gulf; that opportunity exists aplenty if you show the slightest ability to seize it even in one of your two hands!

Had to fix that for you...

Quote
Relax a bit, feel good about your country. It's still worth it, unless you sabotage it.

Uh, the people doing the sabotage spend lots of time in Congress, not here...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on August 26, 2013, 09:47:08 AM
Had to fix that for you...

Uh, the people doing the sabotage spend lots of time in Congress, not here...


Unauthorised fixes apart, I see that you still need your shot of vitamin E.

Fom the happy days of dirndl skirts, suspender belts and people who actually looked happy whist they danced instead of sexually fierce:

http://youtu.be/mHANNkKBSNU

Does anyone else remember dirndl skirts? Eras notwithstanding, never saw one of them in gold, though.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 26, 2013, 11:08:45 AM
I remember them, Rob. I also remember jitterbugging in high school. Don't remember a gold dirndl, but I wasn't paying much attention to the color of the skirts.

I ought to add that I also remember real boogie woogie. Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9b3ZZywQvg. The guy at the piano even looks like a guy I knew in high school.

Here's another one with a great dance routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QQzbCmlZM4. You gotta love these two kids. You're only that young once.

When this stuff was developing, the war was over and the Allies had won -- mainly because we'd learned how to listen in on the world's vandals and how to keep secrets. We also knew how to execute traitors like Snowden and Manning. A firing squad usually did the job. We understood that the Constitution was not a suicide pact.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 26, 2013, 08:50:53 PM
I remember them, Rob. ...
...
I ought to add that I also remember real boogie woogie. ...
...
Here's another one with a great dance routine: ...

now here's something we can sure agree on,
in addition,
Harry the Hipster in his last years couldn't find work,
he made most piano players look like chumps, but no one cared who put the benzedrine in Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WJq35UvO_o
or this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oZW3XPV7-k

Harry the hipster was one of a kind,
also
this dancing is pretty cool too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsxtGBMQGq4
Have a good night

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on August 26, 2013, 09:00:14 PM
Unauthorised fixes apart, I see that you still need your shot of vitamin E.

It's ok Rob, it became clear quite some time ago in this thread that you are part of the problem of government secrecy and spying. The only question remaining is whether or not you're being paid to troll/further their agenda.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 26, 2013, 09:37:59 PM
It's ok Rob, it became clear quite some time ago in this thread that you are part of the problem of government secrecy and spying. The only question remaining is whether or not you're being paid to troll/further their agenda.
you are being defied by Fred and Ging-
the duo with kick ass pizazz
man she looks like she is having fun,
and move... HAH!
Just like taking a breathtaking photo I guess,
you either can or can't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxPgplMujzQ
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on August 27, 2013, 05:17:47 AM
It's ok Rob, it became clear quite some time ago in this thread that you are part of the problem of government secrecy and spying. The only question remaining is whether or not you're being paid to troll/further their agenda.


Of course I am!

It's clearly in the interests of your country's government for them to pay me loads of money so I can further enjoy my retirement in Spain! For a start, the medical facilities here are pretty good too: you should come, they actually have departments specialising in the treatment of folks with exactly your syndrome. I sometimes see them being helped and led along by gentlemen in white coats whilst I'm going over to the cardio and eye departments. So far, you'll be delighted to know, I can both see and walk there unaided, so perhaps my contract with the Evil Empire in Washington will last a little longe; but shhhhh! don't blow my cover just yet - I need the money.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Chris_Brown on August 27, 2013, 05:12:32 PM
It's clearly in the interests of your country's government for them to pay me loads of money so I can further enjoy my retirement in Spain!

From what I heard, your money will now be diverted to a war in Syria.   >:(
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on August 27, 2013, 05:55:56 PM
From what I heard, your money will now be diverted to a war in Syria.   >:(

They'll be lucky! Spain has already done its best to cancel its own financial disaster by forcing all expats living here to declare their assets over a certain level. We, of course, have no alternative left because all the rest of the countries that matter have managed to join together in a huge gang - best word for it - to rob the innocent citizenry of its hard-earned, tax-paid. That, of course, was never going to be enough: it must continue to be milked until there's none left. I wonder whom they'll fuck then? Each other?

Of course, that's the result of Helvetia caving in to Uncle Sam: the snowball effect.

You know, the longer I listen, the more I hear local folks saying they wished the Euro had never been invented or, at the very least, Spain had kept its nose out and retained its flexible peseta and national identity. Common market, yes; common currency and laws, no! Just more tiers of costly officials who, of course, manage their personal taxation far better, mostly by not having any.

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 27, 2013, 06:40:07 PM
Rob, Relax. It's not going to be long before the Germans get fed up with supporting Southern Europe. The Euro is simply going to HAVE to go the way of the dodo bird so that Southern European countries can go back to their own currencies and monetize their debt.

I know that I'm facing the same problem here in the U.S. In spite of repeated demonstrations that Keynes was wrong, and in spite of the fact that Keynes finally realized he was wrong, Keynesians like Mr. Bernanke have backed our economy into a corner from which there's no reasonable escape. As soon as interest rates begin to approach the inflation rate the feds are going to have to devalue. They won't call it that, but that's what will be happening.

It's the perpetual Liberal problem: if a theory thought up by someone with a lot of credentials doesn't fit reality, the problem has to be with reality because the theory just can't be wrong.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 27, 2013, 08:02:06 PM
I know that I'm facing the same problem here in the U.S. In spite of repeated demonstrations that Keynes was wrong, and in spite of the fact that Keynes finally realized he was wrong, Keynesians like Mr. Bernanke have backed our economy into a corner from which there's no reasonable escape. As soon as interest rates begin to approach the inflation rate the feds are going to have to devalue. They won't call it that, but that's what will be happening.

I hate to be the one that tells you but it has already happened.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 27, 2013, 09:38:38 PM
In a sense, you're right, Dreed. Prices haven't gone berserk yet, and as a result our government masters keep telling us there's no inflation. But the definition of inflation isn't increasing prices; the definition is an increase in the money supply relative to the supply of other goods. The inflation's already there. If the Fed can't get that funny money back, as soon as its velocity increases, prices are going to skyrocket. I can't see any way Bernanke or anybody else can get the thing back under control. And today, as soon as the rumor of war was out, stock markets plummeted. That's probably going to lead to even more asinine financial activity on the part of the government.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 27, 2013, 10:55:19 PM
In a sense, you're right, Dreed. Prices haven't gone berserk yet, and as a result our government masters keep telling us there's no inflation. But the definition of inflation isn't increasing prices; the definition is an increase in the money supply relative to the supply of other goods. The inflation's already there.

Bingo.

Quote
If the Fed can't get that funny money back, as soon as its velocity increases, prices are going to skyrocket. I can't see any way Bernanke or anybody else can get the thing back under control. And today, as soon as the rumor of war was out, stock markets plummeted. That's probably going to lead to even more asinine financial activity on the part of the government.

That's when the Fed puts the interest rates up - that's how the government takes money out of circulation.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 28, 2013, 10:50:43 AM
That's when the Fed puts the interest rates up - that's how the government takes money out of circulation.

Not sure they can afford to do that at this point. Considering the crushing debt this administration has taken on, a rise in interest rates is going to result in even more borrowing to pay the interest on the debt, thereby increasing the debt upon which interest has to be paid. It becomes a really nasty cycle when borrowing gets out of control.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Chris_Brown on August 29, 2013, 12:32:42 PM
Not sure they can afford to do that at this point. Considering the crushing debt this administration has taken on, a rise in interest rates is going to result in even more borrowing to pay the interest on the debt, thereby increasing the debt upon which interest has to be paid. It becomes a really nasty cycle when borrowing gets out of control.

And when emerging markets around the world have more sway on the relative price of the dollar, the mix can be toxic. Decent article about it here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/10272285/Emerging-market-rout-is-too-big-for-the-Fed-to-ignore.html).
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on August 29, 2013, 10:07:47 PM
Not sure they can afford to do that at this point. Considering the crushing debt this administration has taken on, a rise in interest rates is going to result in even more borrowing to pay the interest on the debt, thereby increasing the debt upon which interest has to be paid. It becomes a really nasty cycle when borrowing gets out of control.

It's more complex than this. Whilst the administration has taken on a lot of debt, it can also print more money (which is what it has done and thus why inflation has already risen) in order to pay off that debt. Of course were it to do that, the value of the currency would also drop.  Additionally, the interest rates and movement of the interest rates that the government pays are different to what you or I experience.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on August 30, 2013, 02:07:40 PM
Exactly. That's called "monetizing the debt." The Weimar Republic had it down cold. Several socialist countries are trying to outdo the Weimar Republic and the U.S. isn't far behind. Buy gold!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on August 31, 2013, 04:11:21 AM
Exactly. That's called "monetizing the debt." The Weimar Republic had it down cold. Several socialist countries are trying to outdo the Weimar Republic and the U.S. isn't far behind. Buy gold!


Better yet: buy my prints - all of them! Over and over again!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on August 31, 2013, 08:02:09 AM
a quick reminder of the seriousness of having CREDIBILITY as the leader of the "free" world-
The United States has always stood for democracy and openness  These have become the elements lacking in so many of the machinations behind the building of our security state.
9/11 didn't give the heavies the rights they think they have.
Putin says intervention in Syria is illegal, short of saying what the Russians will do about it.
The interventionists have gone full tilt off the rails.
There was a mention in one of these threads about having the iraq debacle as an example of what our govt has done to screw up the world.
Now we're going to trust the same people to somehow do better this time around?
No, I don't trust them, Putin has more of a chance with me right now.
At least he is openly a thug...
Back to the world stage,
too little, too late, and now our once primary moral leadership position has been usurped by the likes of
Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reily
You all begged for the cuture war in America.
You lost...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 01, 2013, 05:32:34 AM
“a quick reminder of the seriousness of having CREDIBILITY as the leader of the "free" world-
The United States has always stood for democracy and openness  These have become the elements lacking in so many of the machinations behind the building of our security state.
9/11 didn't give the heavies the rights they think they have.
Putin says intervention in Syria is illegal, short of saying what the Russians will do about it.
The interventionists have gone full tilt off the rails.
There was a mention in one of these threads about having the iraq debacle as an example of what our govt has done to screw up the world.
Now we're going to trust the same people to somehow do better this time around?
No, I don't trust them, Putin has more of a chance with me right now.
At least he is openly a thug...
Back to the world stage,
too little, too late, and now our once primary moral leadership position has been usurped by the likes of
Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reily
You all begged for the cuture war in America.”

If you meant couture, well, you got Calvin Klein and the worldwide thrill of countless male assholes on show; if you meant culture, not only did you invent political correctness but exported it to the rest of the poor world!

Some things are best enjoyed at home.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 01, 2013, 08:15:43 AM
lets see,
there has been a sustained gutting of american societal institutions at the bidding of our traditionalists and right wing political conservatives.
Smashing regulations, building a police state, relying on a new polarization in america to provide a basis for building the middle class off of those least able to defend themselves.
This is what america has become.
This is what america has been given over to.
And it is people like me that will not stand by and see a further erosion of the best things left in america.
Like freedom for black teens, reproductive rights for all, prison for scheming politicians and bankers.
Not one US backer of Iraq went to prison over the 4 million dead in Iraq,
We let war criminals mingle with their bros in wyoming and texas,
we starve children and let people die for silly reasons.
There are children less than 5 years old sleeping on a dirt floor right here in my neighborhood.
Million dollar properties, facade of opulence and dream fulfillment,
just under the surface there are grinding circumstances a couple blocks from anyone living...
Now there is a movement underway to change some of these injustices.
It starts at the top...
We'll see, this is the beginning of the end for perpetual war and the security state-
Just how far it goes isn't up to just anyone, it's up to us voters.
We will get our desires,
even if it takes another hundred years.
No to the police state, no to perpetual war,
no to politicians diverging from their constituent's direction...
Just accept it, the culture war is over,
there is no chance the scheming right wing is going to win,
just give it up...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 02, 2013, 11:53:08 AM
lets see,
there has been a sustained gutting of american societal institutions at the bidding of our traditionalists and right wing political conservatives.
Smashing regulations, building a police state, relying on a new polarization in america to provide a basis for building the middle class off of those least able to defend themselves.
This is what america has become.
This is what america has been given over to.
And it is people like me that will not stand by and see a further erosion of the best things left in america.
Like freedom for black teens, reproductive rights for all, prison for scheming politicians and bankers.
Not one US backer of Iraq went to prison over the 4 million dead in Iraq,
We let war criminals mingle with their bros in wyoming and texas,
we starve children and let people die for silly reasons.
There are children less than 5 years old sleeping on a dirt floor right here in my neighborhood.
Million dollar properties, facade of opulence and dream fulfillment,
just under the surface there are grinding circumstances a couple blocks from anyone living...
Now there is a movement underway to change some of these injustices.
It starts at the top...
We'll see, this is the beginning of the end for perpetual war and the security state-
Just how far it goes isn't up to just anyone, it's up to us voters.
We will get our desires,
even if it takes another hundred years.
No to the police state, no to perpetual war,
no to politicians diverging from their constituent's direction...
Just accept it, the culture war is over,
there is no chance the scheming right wing is going to win,
just give it up...


It could be interesting to read what people think constitutes a 'police state'.

As interesting, if not more so, would be the methods by which this state of equality for all would be achieved; as it is, those who work bitch enough already about the abuse their tax contributions recieve... Left-wing or right-wing, in the end, the books have to balance. That's the first - and often final - lesson in earning one's living.

One has to realise (and accept) that there are swathes of people who are ignorant, are offered the educational opportunity that the state is obliged to offer but either refuse it or waste their time in education playing silly games behind the teacher's back - or even in the teacher's face, in some schools. Of course, that's usually turned into the teacher's fault, never that of the dipstick child. Discipline? Do you personally know any teachers who have had to face the parent(s) of such brats at those parent/teacher evenings? Teachers even get assaulted, physically, by parents. It is never the brat's fault when certificates are not forthcoming.

You accept the truth of that, and you can't help but at once realise that there are thousands and thousands of people leaving schools with not a snowball's chance of finding work through which they can earn enough to sustain themselves - unless they do the drug and crime circuit, I suppose. What do you suggest that we do with this bunch? You can't educate someone who doesn't want to know. Should taxation be raised even further just to bankroll them through life?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 02, 2013, 12:13:45 PM
Rob,

Have you ever checked how many of highly successful people, the likes of rock and movie stars, entrepreneurs, etc, were good boys/girls in school? I bet a minuscule minority. It is precisely their refusal to fit their energy and creativity into the molds of the mediocre that has propelled them to success later in life. By the same token, some of us (or many of us) who excelled in school, never managed to raise above the mediocre later in life.

Perhaps because of the following:

Unreasonable people expect the world to bend to their desires.

Reasonable people know better, and adjust to how the world works.

Therefore, all the progress in the world depends on the unreasonable.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 03, 2013, 05:20:51 AM
No; many people who make it big, such as rock stars, do that not from ignorance (you wouldn't listen to Jagger, McCartney, Ferry and others like them and think them dumb or uneducated; in interviews, these people come over as rather well-spoken, intelligent and perfectly capable of fine reasoning; in fact, many went to art school, displaying an artistic bent from early on.

The difference that makes them successful, in my view, is something that I've said over and over again here when some folks post asking advice about becoming pro photographers: the key is two-fold - talent and dedication. We all need both, especially the latter. As that lady who just swan from Cuba to Florida (broad hint to others?) said: never give up and never think of yourself as too old.

It isn't about being put into moulds; education at basic school level is about acquiring the tools of survival: the ability to express oneself, to cope with fairly universal problems and to have a broad understanding of several measurable disciplines.

The thing is, Slobodan, that citing successful entrepreneurs is dangerous at best: many, many fail – I’m told more new-starts collapse than succeed – and there are also exceptions to most rules. The general point I am trying to make is that many school kids fail because they deserve to fail because of their own personal faults and failings; others are on a borderline, and home help or its lack ruins their chances. We also have a society where nobody is allowed to be seen to have failed so worthless certificates are issued to save face all round. Some universities have had to offer additional classes in basic English to new arrivals, something that a few years ago would have seemed an absurdity and a contradiction in terms.

 In a world whose populations are becoming increasingly divided into either highly skilled technicians or drones, where does it end? I believe much is to be blamed on this nonsense of checking boxes rather than writing a reply to questions. I'd even go so far as to blame keyboards; ever since I got myself one, I have hardly written anything other than a shopping list (which I often forget at home) and telephone messages are rendered in a scrawl that I understand at the time but is totally indecipherable to me ten minutes later. Use it or lose it?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 06, 2013, 07:53:36 AM
I say use it...
There are physical capabilities beyond which there would be no point,

EVERYBODY everywhere start attaching encrypted files to random emails.
Just for fun...
Everybody do this for a period of time.
Say 3 months.
Render the bastards helpless...
Do it three times and they'll get the message.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 08, 2013, 11:02:20 AM
Now about this cloud thing,
so every single photograph ever taken and processed by Photoshop on the cloud is being downloaded.
Every single one.
I'm not sure they'd bother with the contents of a hard drive, but maybe,
so every single photograph ever taken and on the internet, or on any cloud based server is in the hands of these people that have already proven they'll stop at nothing gathering then using information to attack everything in sight....
Reminds me of THE PRISONER
"what do you want!"
"information."
Well, now that art is dead on the internet, we can say America killed it.
fuckers
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 08, 2013, 01:30:30 PM
Rocco,

When you get too blue:

http://youtu.be/DofQHvU_6oo

Full screen and max. volume.

;-)

Rob C



Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 08, 2013, 08:09:49 PM
Rocco,When you get too blue:http://youtu.be/DofQHvU_6ooFull screen and max. volume.;-)Rob C

Yeppers this is quite a bit closer to what my sentiments are, and if you get this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aRuN0DY41s
try a youtube stream featuring Ray Wylie Hubbard,
you know the guy who wrote
"(Up Against the wall) Redneck Mothers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWImBgdnKEk
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 09, 2013, 09:47:24 AM
Yeppers this is quite a bit closer to what my sentiments are, and if you get this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aRuN0DY41s
try a youtube stream featuring Ray Wylie Hubbard,
you know the guy who wrote
"(Up Against the wall) Redneck Mothers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWImBgdnKEk


Really like Mr Ray; also like this because whatever else goes down, your American Dream still allows the possibility of finding one of these for yourself (maybe even with a Continental extension?) in an old barn somewhere... a little hard work and hey! Like new! Never happen in Mallorca; they are all in collections.

;-(

http://youtu.be/_GlB7jKi2Ww

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 09, 2013, 05:48:36 PM
ah yeah, so this guy,...
i don't have the time or facilities, but valuable cars are funny,
worthless in the right circles, but if you have a Jack Carrigg I have a 64 1/2 3 speed six mustang, driprails rusted through, all original interior and emblems,
for the right Jack Carrigg
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 09, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
...the possibility of finding one of these for yourself (maybe even with a Continental extension?) ...(http://youtu.be/_GlB7jKi2WwRob C
BTW
the band that wrote and performed that white cadillac song yeah that was the beginning of "americana" for me,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpDK-YRpObU
along with the beat farmers these guys made my saturday nites in the mid 80's- along with 'nita and her entourage who'd forget the california kid? RIP Country Dick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGO5okcUDBM
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on September 10, 2013, 08:22:47 PM
The Director of National Intelligence (DNI) just today released hundreds of pages of documents related to the government's secret interpretation of Patriot Act Section 215 and the NSA's (mis)use of its massive database of every American's phone records. The documents were released as a result of EFF's ongoing Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.

Government Releases NSA Surveillance Docs and Previously Secret FISA Court Opinions In Response to EFF Lawsuit
 (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/09/government-releases-nsa-surveillance-docs-and-previously-secret-fisa-court)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on September 10, 2013, 08:27:54 PM
“The truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped,” Edward Snowden told readers of the Guardian in June. At the time, just a few weeks into the publication of documents that the 30-year-old former National Security Agency contractor had siphoned from his workstation in Hawaii, that prophetic statement might have seemed like grandstanding. But close to three months later, the collection of Snowden’s revelations has grown to the megaleak proportions of WikiLeaks’ Cablegate or Daniel Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers, with no end in sight. For those who watch the watchers, Snowden may well have become the most important leaker of the 21st century.

Ten Things We've Learned About The NSA From A Summer Of Snowden Leaks (http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/09/09/ten-things-weve-learned-about-the-nsa-from-a-summer-of-snowden-leaks/)

- Forbes
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 11, 2013, 10:01:59 AM
BTW
the band that wrote and performed that white cadillac song yeah that was the beginning of "americana" for me,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpDK-YRpObU
along with the beat farmers these guys made my saturday nites in the mid 80's- along with 'nita and her entourage who'd forget the california kid? RIP Country Dick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGO5okcUDBM


There's a number running on klrzfm.com called Black Cadillac (Come ride in my) which I love; always turn the volume up and take the ears off when it's played. It isn't the same number that is available on YouTube, and klrzfm runs long sequences without telling you who's on...

They are a friendly station; maybe I'll E-mail them and ask. Love swamp pop rock.

How would I live without Internet music?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: Rob C on September 11, 2013, 10:04:37 AM
“The truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped,” Edward Snowden told readers of the Guardian in June. At the time, just a few weeks into the publication of documents that the 30-year-old former National Security Agency contractor had siphoned from his workstation in Hawaii, that prophetic statement might have seemed like grandstanding. But close to three months later, the collection of Snowden’s revelations has grown to the megaleak proportions of WikiLeaks’ Cablegate or Daniel Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers, with no end in sight. For those who watch the watchers, Snowden may well have become the most important leaker of the 21st century.

Ten Things We've Learned About The NSA From A Summer Of Snowden Leaks (http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/09/09/ten-things-weve-learned-about-the-nsa-from-a-summer-of-snowden-leaks/)

- Forbes



If only he'd gone for a piss instead.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on September 11, 2013, 04:48:20 PM
btw, about cadres

just run into resume - I will quote some pieces :

"Central Intelligence Agency, Washington DC       August 2006 - June 2009
Telecommunications Information Systems Officer
·       Obtained and maintained a Top Secret /SCI clearance"

... skipped...

"Indiana County Technology Center, Indiana PA   April 2006 - June 2006
Network Intern"

... skipped...

"Associate in Science Degree, Information Technology, Concentration in Network Administration Pittsburgh Technical Institute, Oakdale PA Graduated July 2006 "

they are hiring kids from school literally (I did not quote waitering, etc odds, I doubt he was 21 in 2006 even) and expect them to behave like...


Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 11, 2013, 05:54:55 PM
btw, about cadres

just run into resume - I will quote some pieces :

"Central Intelligence Agency, Washington DC       August 2006 - June 2009
Telecommunications Information Systems Officer
·       Obtained and maintained a Top Secret /SCI clearance"

... skipped...

"Indiana County Technology Center, Indiana PA   April 2006 - June 2006
Network Intern"

... skipped...

"Associate in Science Degree, Information Technology, Concentration in Network Administration Pittsburgh Technical Institute, Oakdale PA Graduated July 2006 "

they are hiring kids from school literally (I did not quote waitering, etc odds, I doubt he was 21 in 2006 even) and expect them to behave like...







Maybe it's the pay they offer...

You know, monkeys and peanuts?

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Vladimirovich on September 11, 2013, 06:44:45 PM



Maybe it's the pay they offer...

You know, monkeys and peanuts?

Rob C

true, however the question is - where all of our money go then if they can't afford a grown up techie.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 11, 2013, 08:25:51 PM
true, however the question is - where all of our money go...

Top 1% take biggest income slice on record (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/10/pay-gap-richest-poorest/2793343/)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on September 12, 2013, 09:10:34 AM
Top 1% take biggest income slice on record (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/10/pay-gap-richest-poorest/2793343/)


That's ok though because they create all the jobs and all the wealth, so they should be allowed to keep all the money. It's almost a divine right.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 12, 2013, 09:40:36 AM
strange,
so this debate would've happened anyway according to the administration that welcomes the debate after the revelations, chicken or egg...
What seems to be fueling the backlash to the everyday scumbaggery American Govt. is involved in are American IT and web companies complaining they won't be able to compete...
Imagine we have the awesomest weapons in the world, but can't compete in IT and internet because the nsa and cia have built a surveillance state based in IT and internet,
you guys asked for it,
I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some crises in the next month or two,
What ever happened to Glenn Greenwald's congressional appearance?
They got you.
You guys better get used to it.
There will be no change, but there will be thousands, even millions of young Americans that find this entire episode repugnant-
These will be the change
if it takes a hundred years...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 12, 2013, 10:52:48 AM
That's ok though because they create all the jobs and all the wealth, so they should be allowed to keep all the money. It's almost a divine right.


But on the whole, don't they pay the bigger tax?

The question is, if they didn't find it worthwhile (a relative term) to keep their investments where they do, where would those jobs go? Or would that require more nationalisation, trade restrictions, and the inevitable fall of production and services control into union hands? Then we'd really find out what power in few hands really means. (Some benefit might be served if the rest of the world studied the British years under Wilson and Callaghan.) Or would somebody propose we simply cancel high wealth (again, a very relative and highly subjective call) by passing some Robin Hood legislation and steal it for ourselves through that? It's so easy to spend other's money...

Governments chasing tax revenue have already made a lot of industries such as 'offshore' lose attractiveness; what will the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, Monaco, Andorra, The Bahamas, Bermuda, the Caymans, some of the Virgins etc. do next to stay alive? All of these things, though of little use to most people, still served many purposes and supported their own tiny economies from offshore banking, the running of companies and all manner of services. In the end, it all created work. We are obviously all going to benefit from stopping it. (It's the old tale about the little fox who had his tail cut off: he wanted all the other little foxes to do the same.)

I blame Switzerland for caving in to Uncle Sam. It opened the artery that let all the blood flow into the gutters of the world.

And it was not all bad, evil and sinful, despite what those with no actual experience might tell you.

Rob C
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: dreed on September 15, 2013, 05:51:42 PM
Call it the Edward Snowden effect: Citing the former NSA contractor, a federal judge has ordered the government to declassify more reports from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.


The FISA court will release more opinions because of Snowden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/13/the-fisa-court-will-release-more-opinions-because-of-snowden/)

This is a victory for all Americans as a previously secret and hidden part of the government becomes more open and transparent.
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: dreed on September 15, 2013, 05:55:43 PM
WASHINGTON -- James Clapper, the director of national intelligence, said Thursday that Edward Snowden's disclosures of secret surveillance programs at home and abroad have generated a useful public debate on the trade-offs between privacy and national security.

"I think it's clear that some of the conversations this has generated, some of the debate, actually needed to happen," Clapper told a defense and intelligence contractor trade group. "If there's a good side to this, maybe that's it."

Clapper: Snowden case brings healthy debate; more disclosures to come (http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-clapper-snowden-disclosures-20130912,0,7438979.story)

I wonder if Clapper has recently been to confession and is seeking to atone or cleanse his soul?
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 15, 2013, 08:59:43 PM
I wonder if Clapper has recently been to confession and is seeking to atone or cleanse his soul?

This exact behavior was exhibited around my town by local district officials that had been caught red handed setting up a special interest driven agenda that cost more $ in the long run etc...
They were removed from office through a special recall election.
Too bad we can't just dispense with the formalities, call anyone in office a criminal, and strip them all of their rights and privileges as US citizens, confiscate their property, and exile them all to New Jersey.
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 16, 2013, 03:36:28 AM
This is a victory for all Americans as a previously secret and hidden part of the government becomes more open and transparent.

Yes, it's a cracker. I imagine the Russians, Chinese and Al Qaeda are pretty downcast at being forced to learn about US attempts to find out what they're up to.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Rob C on September 16, 2013, 05:29:18 AM
Yes, it's a cracker. I imagine the Russians, Chinese and Al Qaeda are pretty downcast at being forced to learn about US attempts to find out what they're up to.

Jeremy


Nah, they are obviously all as naïve, altruistic and generally kindy disposed to the world at large as are we!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: dreed on September 16, 2013, 02:00:40 PM
Yes, it's a cracker. I imagine the Russians, Chinese and Al Qaeda are pretty downcast at being forced to learn about US attempts to find out what they're up to.

Everyone expects that.

What people don't expect is to find out in 2013 that in 2011, the NSA (US Government) obtained approval to start snooping on its own citizens.

It's not the spying on adversarial or "enemy" governments that is the issue here, it is the dragnet spying on people that picks up everything and anything without discrimination - especially as it has become obvious that this dragnet has included people (Americans) that it is not allowed to.

It is rather sad to see people making excuses for the US government to do all of this.
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 16, 2013, 02:55:04 PM
Everyone expects that.

What people don't expect is to find out in 2013 that in 2011, the NSA (US Government) obtained approval to start snooping on its own citizens.

It's not the spying on adversarial or "enemy" governments that is the issue here, it is the dragnet spying on people that picks up everything and anything without discrimination - especially as it has become obvious that this dragnet has included people (Americans) that it is not allowed to.

It is rather sad to see people making excuses for the US government to do all of this.

They don't necessarily expect to be given details of the methods, though: that's just a generous bonus, an aid to their attempts to avoid detection.

I'm making excuses for nobody. There's a big cultural dichotomy becoming apparent. We (the British) hear about governmental snooping and we think, yup, that's what GCHQ is for: us, them, anyone, who cares? You (Americans) get irate about it. We see no point in hamstringing ourselves in our attempts to keep us safe from the bad guys; you have different priorities.

I don't offer an explanation for the different views, I just observe that they exist. Hence my "yawn" response to your other post.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: RSL on September 16, 2013, 04:46:02 PM
There's a lot to yawn about in this thread.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2013, 08:36:43 AM
There's a lot to yawn about in this thread.


Well speaking or, better, writing as a fully unqualified psychiartrist, I'd feel obliged to declare that I spot an awful lot of obsessive minds at work here. Paranoia, anyone? Nurse, lay that spike down at once!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on September 17, 2013, 04:02:28 PM
Well speaking or, better, writing as a fully unqualified psychiartrist, I'd feel obliged to declare that I spot an awful lot of obsessive minds at work here. Paranoia, anyone? Nurse, lay that spike down at once!

;-)

Rob C

People used to be called paranoid because we had no proof that what they were scared about (government watching everything we do) was true.

The problem is that now we know for sure that the government does watch what we do online and tries to watch as much else as possible (phone information.)

It's a tough sell now to say that those people were paranoid for no reason or that their paranoia was misplaced.
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: dreed on September 17, 2013, 04:06:36 PM
I'm making excuses for nobody. There's a big cultural dichotomy becoming apparent. We (the British) hear about governmental snooping and we think, yup, that's what GCHQ is for: us, them, anyone, who cares? You (Americans) get irate about it. We see no point in hamstringing ourselves in our attempts to keep us safe from the bad guys; you have different priorities.

I'd also look at how England eventually delt with the IRA (source of many terrorist attacks on England): sat down and talked with them (at least that is my recollection.) It may be that the surveillance state that grew out of that has led to more English people being accustomed to being "monitored."

Amazing what a good conversation will do when two parties meet to reconcile their differences.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: colinb on September 17, 2013, 04:15:49 PM
I'd also look at how England eventually delt with the IRA (source of many terrorist attacks on England): sat down and talked with them (at least that is my recollection.) It may be that the surveillance state that grew out of that has led to more English people being accustomed to being "monitored."

Amazing what a good conversation will do when two parties meet to reconcile their differences.

I agree with you for the most part, though I think it is worth remembering that the IRA never had as a goal the destruction of the British government. You can negotiate with people who want things different than the things you want. I think it might be harder to negotiate with people who want you to cease to exist.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 17, 2013, 05:08:51 PM
dang office work, waiting for phone calls, stamping and sending papers- all proprietary info,
what if I had an angle?
Let's say I know a guy that has a client that wants all of the work done very um privately.
Not trying to sidestep rules or anything else, lets say discretion and common decency require an agreement that backs it up, you know, sign here Jr...
Okay then let's say you find out stuff worth money to the right people, you know like in many many enterprises,
trade secrets and so on,
now everyone including the idiot snowden has your info,  would you trust him with a 30 million dollar idea?  If he has access the way he says he did,
who else?
Chelsea Manning?  I do not trust anyone that doesn't recognize just what this means.  Anyone in the patriot acting community can now scoop anyone's business secrets.
Anyones.
all my papers today, all my phone calls,  any and all trade secrets that have a home on any network, and all mail etc...
no privacy at all, how did you people let this happen?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 17, 2013, 05:13:05 PM
...
...I think it might be harder to negotiate with people who want you to cease to exist.
Oh yeah, you mean like the israelis  concerning the palestinians they wish would all die in the open air gulag prison camps called gaza and west bank?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: colinb on September 17, 2013, 05:49:11 PM
Oh yeah, you mean like the israelis  concerning the palestinians they wish would all die in the open air gulag prison camps called gaza and west bank?

Or the Palestinians concerning the Israelis and their political leadership's often expressed wish to push the jews into the sea - or do you really believe that the good or evil is all on one side here?

You see, you already know exactly what I'm talking about.

FWIW, the Egyptians have a role to play here to. Gaza shares a border with Egypt, and I note that it doesn't look a whole lot more open than that with Israel. But I digress. You've illustrated exactly the point I'm making. It's hard to negotiate when all you've got is 'what about' and 'but you hit me first' and 'my daddy/sponsor/provider-of-weapons' is bigger than yours. And all of those things apply to both sides in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and nothing is going to get better until the people involved on both sides stop posturing and start talking.
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2013, 06:37:01 PM
I'd also look at how England eventually delt with the IRA (source of many terrorist attacks on England): sat down and talked with them (at least that is my recollection.) It may be that the surveillance state that grew out of that has led to more English people being accustomed to being "monitored."

Amazing what a good conversation will do when two parties meet to reconcile their differences.


Jeez, you think it's over? It will never be over because religion is involved, religion shared and defended by people who seldom, if ever, go to church as in prayer... It's inherited bigotry and as with much in life, from race, religion, politics and even to gays and straights, it is in the fabric to be partisan. The idea of brotherly love is a 20th Century myth. Nobody bought into it before, and I doubt many are convinced today. The hugging, always a brief interlude, died.

As for reconciling differences through conversation: you believe having the faces of known IRA supremos in government (as happened in Israel too) is a lot to do with reasoned conversation? Realpolitik, situation ethics and mutual exhaustion of energy and finance is closer to the truth.

Rob C
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 17, 2013, 06:52:13 PM

... Realpolitik, situation ethics and mutual exhaustion of energy and finance is closer to the truth.

Rob C
oohhh
ouch!
that one hurt Rob,  

I can't help but feel a little bummed out about Brazil's President  being stabbed in the back by America.  Just when relations were improving, the economic dynamo that is brazil along with the other countries from the region playing backdrop on the one hand, and the US and its indefensible action spying on the state run petroleum company, wrangling out secrets from the presidents personal phone calls and email,
well President Rousseff has just canceled an important dinner at the white house after a 20 minute call to Obama today,
israel is using every drop of information the US GOVERNMENT COLLECTS AND HANDS OVER FREE OF  RESTRICTIONS...
and you think I'll say it's OK?
Man how did you even reach far enough to get israel into this conversation with regards to anything besides the illegal spying we perpetrate with its help?
Maybe you're confusing this thread with the one about syria and bombs and poison gas.
May I direct you to the thread in CC entitled "should we bomb syria?"
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Rob C on September 18, 2013, 04:17:56 AM
Man how did you even reach far enough to get israel into this conversation with regards to anything besides the illegal spying we perpetrate with its help?Maybe you're confusing this thread with the one about syria and bombs and poison gas.
May I direct you to the thread in CC entitled "should we bomb syria?"


Very simple, Rocco: I replied to dreed's post where he brings up the IRA, in this thread, a few posts ago. Both the latter, and the governments of Isreal after '48, had highly visible ex-'freedom fighters' in government, people that a short while earlier were doing their best to terminally cancel the opposition.

You might as well ask dreed why he thought the IRA had anything to do with the topic... but such topics as this grow, spread out and that's the only way they can survive the shell of obsession from which they spring and would otherwise remain within. And in the end, they are both the same topic only in separate envelopes.

I still depair at the paucity of female writings in LuLa, though I think I understand it.

;-(

Rob C
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Robert Roaldi on September 18, 2013, 07:28:17 AM

I still depair at the paucity of female writings in LuLa, though I think I understand it.


This is wildly off-topic, but I sort of get why. In my limited experience, women tend to discuss things, not always, but mostly. Sometimes too much. But men are usually just trying to win the argument and are not frequently interested in hearing opinions that differ from their own. It's an alpha male wolf pack thing, I believe, deep in our genes. Challenge is bad, winning is good. It leads to the ludicrous situation where politicians are seen to be weak if they change their minds about something, or when the 3rd generation male buys another Ford.
Title: Re: Richard Snowden a hero
Post by: Rob C on September 18, 2013, 09:35:10 AM
This is wildly off-topic, but I sort of get why. In my limited experience, women tend to discuss things, not always, but mostly. Sometimes too much. But men are usually just trying to win the argument and are not frequently interested in hearing opinions that differ from their own. It's an alpha male wolf pack thing, I believe, deep in our genes. Challenge is bad, winning is good. It leads to the ludicrous situation where politicians are seen to be weak if they change their minds about something, or when the 3rd generation male buys another Ford.


Nutshell!

Rob C
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Rocco Penny on September 18, 2013, 09:33:20 PM
That there is movement on a pre-emptive pardon of the war criminal class has me in stitches.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-doj-asks-court-to-grant-immunity-to-george-w-bush-for-iraq-war/5346637
That we let them play chicken with our and other's lives, while they sit unscathed sipping whichever pardoner's martini slice they have to hone to stay on top.
These people have become what we used to supposedly deplore in the rest of the world.
That Obama has the nerve to sit up there as he is just now, as we find out more and more about not just the last but the current outlaw administration.
How do you people allow this?
Why aren't there 30 million marchers across america designing a new era?
One that refutes bombing as a means to end sectarian violence.  One that recognizes that the American people will not stand for this aggression.  The government is not welcome to my data.  They may not give it to israel.  They may not share it with the dea or border enforcement or anyone else.
They must stop.
Thank goodness there is some movement on capitol hill to end the worst of it.
Meanwhile the nas says they still are doing it and what's more will not stop unless required to do so.
Time to require them.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: dreed on September 24, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
That Obama has the nerve to sit up there as he is just now, as we find out more and more about not just the last but the current outlaw administration.
How do you people allow this?
Why aren't there 30 million marchers across america designing a new era?

Because for the most part, everyone is getting all of the Bread and Circuses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses) that they desire so they have no reason to change the status quo.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on September 30, 2013, 03:22:34 AM
" For almost three years the much-discussed US National Security Agency has been tapping the data it collects to map out some Americans’ social connections."

NSA uses data to map Americans' social connections (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/29/nsa-uses-data-to-map-americans-social-connections-report-says/)
NSA examines social networks of US citizens (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us/nsa-examines-social-networks-of-us-citizens.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a hero?
Post by: dreed on September 30, 2013, 03:34:36 AM
"Since 1 January 2003, there have been 12 substantiated instances of intentional misuse of the signals intelligence (SIGINT) authorities of the Director of the National Security Agency."

... that they're willing to admit to.

NSA Surveillance report 11 September 2013 (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20news/US-news-PDFs/NSA-Surveillance-09-11-13-response.pdf)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: tom b on October 01, 2013, 11:14:23 PM
Former NSA chief: western intelligence agencies must be more transparent
 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/30/nsa-director-intelligence-public-support)

Cheers,
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Klein on October 27, 2014, 03:06:30 AM
If he believed the government was doing unconstitutional things, he should have stayed in America and defended his position.  Instead, he copped out to Russia to be used by others against his country all the while gathering fame and glory for himself. 
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Telecaster on October 27, 2014, 05:02:24 PM
My own take: Snowden is an absolutist with an absolutist's simpletonistic worldview who acted at least in part out of arrogance and with more than a little Savior Complex thrown into the mix…and yet who did something that I judge, on the whole, to be beneficial.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 28, 2014, 02:38:31 AM
I have a simple view as someone who signed more NSA disclosure agreements over my 20+ years than I could ever hope to count.  This is very black and white.   First, remember the guy was a grunt level worker without the education or experience to adequately judge the information to which he had access.. and from what I understand his access wasn't because he was working on the projects, but rather maintaining the systems that held the information.  He was a young nobody who saw something and reacted most likely without much thought of the consequences.  He also had multiple avenues to take his concerns, but instead he chose to commit treason.   

What he did isn't about the bigger picture this has turned into.  This is about an employee who signed disclosure national security agreements and subsequently stole NSA data and released at least some of it and sought asylum with the worst possible country he could choose.    If you think the Russians gave him sanctuary out of the bottoms of their hearts then you're naive. 

Snowden stole more classified data and has done more damage than any other 20 spies in our history.  The only control we have for keeping our classified material classified.. is punishment for offences ranging from negligence to treason..

Again, it's not whether you think the material should have been made public, that's a decision made by the leaders YOU and I voted in as part of our representative republic.. we voted to give them both the authority and right to prosecute those who break their agreements.

Would so many people feel so good about this guy if he had a morale issue with.. say nuclear weapons, ship and submarine movements, or how about the SEC access codes?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: shawnino on October 28, 2014, 08:28:24 AM

Snowden stole more classified data and has done more damage than any other 20 spies in our history. 

While I agree with most of what you post, that statement is unproven.
 
Data perhaps, but in terms of damage, in our own lifetime I'll nominate Aldrich Ames. Ames singlehandedly wiped out the West's human intelligence network inside the Soviet Union. That will take an awful lot of beating, no matter what's on Snowden's thumb drives.

Going back further, if someone wants to nominate an atomic bomb spy, argue whether or not Alger Hiss was a spy, please feel free. In our time, compared to Ames, Snowden's a schoolboy.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: spidermike on October 28, 2014, 05:00:37 PM
Quote
Again, it's not whether you think the material should have been made public, that's a decision made by the leaders YOU and I voted in as part of our representative republic.. we voted to give them both the authority and right to prosecute those who break their agreements.

Surely the issue there is that those same people are the ones (in Snoden's view) failing in oversight so what possible confidence could he have in leaving it up to them??!
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 28, 2014, 05:12:12 PM
While I agree with most of what you post, that statement is unproven.
 
Data perhaps, but in terms of damage, in our own lifetime I'll nominate Aldrich Ames. Ames singlehandedly wiped out the West's human intelligence network inside the Soviet Union. That will take an awful lot of beating, no matter what's on Snowden's thumb drives.

Going back further, if someone wants to nominate an atomic bomb spy, argue whether or not Alger Hiss was a spy, please feel free. In our time, compared to Ames, Snowden's a schoolboy.
Ya, Ames was a case study we had to go over many times.   I should have said he has the potential to do more damage with the data he stole. 
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 28, 2014, 05:18:34 PM
Surely the issue there is that those same people are the ones (in Snoden's view) failing in oversight so what possible confidence could he have in leaving it up to them??!

The system is all we have, and it's arguably the best in the world.  The integrity of the system is dependent on citizens working within the system, not outside it.  We didn't elect a relatively inexperienced and uneducated grunt worker at the NSA to make this decision.  Unfortunately we elected our President to do this.  Still, we don't pack up our bags and head to our enemies.  We hunker down and work inside the system to get someone better next time.  This is our system.  Otherwise we'd be like Thailand with more than 20 coups in the last 49 years or whatever those numbers are.  They don't fully believe in their system, they make excuses for working outside it, and the military moves in and it ends up even worse.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 28, 2014, 05:27:53 PM
... a relatively inexperienced and uneducated grunt worker at the NSA...

And yet he managed to steal enormous amount of data from under the noses of oh, so highly experienced and educated professionals.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 28, 2014, 10:42:14 PM
If he believed the government was doing unconstitutional things, he should have stayed in America and defended his position.
 

I was always saying that those Quakers were just totally immoral to come here - must be stayin and defending their position... and Jewish people, how dared they to escape EE instead of standing their ground there... you logic is very solid - who cares that he 'd not get a fair trial w/ secret evidences and witnesses...


Instead, he copped out to Russia to be used by others against his country all the while gathering fame and glory for himself. 

may be you need to educate yourself about the matter ? he did not "copped out to Russia" - he got stuck there because of US fed. gov't actions preventing him from travel... and what was the country he went first ? ... BTW about some nice gentlemen really copping to America - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29795749
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 28, 2014, 10:47:16 PM
If you think the Russians gave him sanctuary out of the bottoms of their hearts then you're naive. 
and why do you think that we did not have that already for years from our boys  ;) ... in fact we are not happy w/ Snowden because he makes our work more difficult... idiots in NSA now started to watch who is downloading what  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 29, 2014, 12:46:21 AM
And yet he managed to steal enormous amount of data from under the noses of oh, so highly experienced and educated professionals.

You're kidding right?  No skill needed past a basic understanding of whatever OS they're using.  The security of these places is mostly dependent on the trust factor, screening during the security clearance process, psychological evaluations, and the all great deterrent of punishment.  What you're implying is that a employee at a coca-cola bottling plant couldn't find a Mr. Pibb (okay, tougher now that they're discontinued) if security was tight.. which is ludicrous.  Once in the plant an employee has every opportunity to drink themselves into obesity..

It's funny.. when I first was exposed to this stuff portable magnetic media wasn't yet mainstream..  geez, our first hard drive on our Streamliner com system in the late 80's was bigger than a really large washing machine and it was only 10mb.. I think 16 platters.  But soon thereafter PC's and 360k floppies (all tempest approved of course) where coming on line and they knew security could never keep up with the demand for moving or storing data.. and apparently it still can't.  It's just the nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 29, 2014, 12:56:34 AM
and why do you think that we did not have that already for years from our boys  ;) ... in fact we are not happy w/ Snowden because he makes our work more difficult... idiots in NSA now started to watch who is downloading what  ;D

One day we might find that to be true.. but historically Russia is way behind on the technology front, somewhat ahead on the HUMINT end..
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on October 29, 2014, 09:02:18 AM
It's funny.. when I first was exposed to this stuff portable magnetic media wasn't yet mainstream..  geez, our first hard drive on our Streamliner com system in the late 80's was bigger than a really large washing machine and it was only 10mb.. I think 16 platters.  But soon thereafter PC's and 360k floppies (all tempest approved of course) where coming on line and they knew security could never keep up with the demand for moving or storing data.. and apparently it still can't.  It's just the nature of the beast.

Indeed, but then collecting more and more data, hoping to eventually find something 'useful', only creates bigger haystacks to find a few needles. It is also more costly, and harder to secure from unwanted access, with little gains.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 29, 2014, 11:07:26 AM
Indeed, but then collecting more and more data, hoping to eventually find something 'useful', only creates bigger haystacks to find a few needles. It is also more costly, and harder to secure from unwanted access, with little gains.

Cheers,
Bart

I remember the gains as being significant.  Some of the brightest minds in the world work in the puzzle palace doing just what you describe, finding needles.  I've had the pleasure of meeting some of these people, they're on an entirely different level.  Almost savant like in their skills and ability to write one-off algorithms in search of that special needle.. 

My guess and I'm just guessing at this.. is the NSA is at it's best when such people are available, and lost in a big wind when without.   In one case you have someone very bright custom tuning not only the searches but also the collections.. and in the other just operators using their past work trying to get lucky. 
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on October 29, 2014, 11:21:22 AM
I remember the gains as being significant.

You are talking about quality. However, the question is, how are bigger haystacks beneficial (e.g. think about the Boston bombers, intelligence was available but; not acted upon, or being busy with other needle searches), and is it legal (unless the premise has become that everybody is guilty until proven innocent ...)? 'Solve' it by building even bigger haystacks?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Telecaster on October 29, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
From the New York Review of Books, written by David Cole:

"In their extraordinary revelations about what the NSA and its secret programs have been doing, Snowden’s leaks have shown the precariousness of privacy today. But Citizenfour (a documentary film centered on Snowden) also demonstrates, unwittingly, that we are part of the problem. We have chosen to broadcast our lives. Whether we can preserve some semblance of privacy from the state when we have surrendered all semblance of privacy to the private sector remains to be seen. It is not impossible. Rules can be crafted that limit government access to information that private companies have, on the ground that government access to such information poses a much greater risk. And as Europe has shown, it is possible to limit by law what the private sector can do with the personal data it gathers about us."

-Dave-
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 29, 2014, 02:53:45 PM
We have chosen to broadcast our lives.
indeed, didn't mama teach you not to wear a short skirt ...
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 29, 2014, 05:06:07 PM
You are talking about quality. However, the question is, how are bigger haystacks beneficial (e.g. think about the Boston bombers, intelligence was available but; not acted upon, or being busy with other needle searches), and is it legal (unless the premise has become that everybody is guilty until proven innocent ...)? 'Solve' it by building even bigger haystacks?

Cheers,
Bart
The needle in the haystack(s) problem is very real in the pharmaceutical industry where we want to better understand very rare adverse drug reactions.  Compounds get approved in the US based on a small number of patients in clinical trials and the 1 in 10,000 rare event (which is actually a fairly frequent one when the drug goes on the market) is often not seen.  The issue of sifting through a lot of chaff to get the one wheat kernel is tough.  Back in 2005-07 I managed a project to improve the way that we sort through large heterogeneous databases to improve the S/N ratio.  I was able to get a $20M project off the ground and today the results are tangible.  We did a really neat thing by creating some synthetic databases with buried signals and opening up a competition to all comers for better search algorithms.  IIRC we had over 100 applicants ranging from high school nerds to CS faculty members and awarded 2-3 cash prizes.

Alan
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 29, 2014, 07:48:18 PM
You are talking about quality. However, the question is, how are bigger haystacks beneficial (e.g. think about the Boston bombers, intelligence was available but; not acted upon, or being busy with other needle searches), and is it legal (unless the premise has become that everybody is guilty until proven innocent ...)? 'Solve' it by building even bigger haystacks?

Cheers,
Bart

I really don't think it's a haystack or a needle problem in regards to your references.  My someone educated but more opinionated guess is it has more to do with politics.  Historically when it comes to spying.. legality isn't considered.  The thing about spying.. is secrecy.  You don't spy and tell.  You put on a straight face and only use the information when you must.. and when it can't backtrack.  You talk about Ames.. we didn't know the Russians knew, and what real advantages did it give them?  They knew the information was useless unless they were wiling to be backtracked.. so they settled mostly for just knowing.  When you look at the bigger picture of spying vs. diplomacy vs usefulness.. you start to realize just how much damage Snowden has done.  And after all these months he's had to think about it, apparently he still isn't bright enough to get it.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 29, 2014, 08:10:43 PM
... You talk about Ames.. we didn't know the Russians knew, and what real advantages did it give them?  They knew the information was useless unless they were wiling to be backtracked.. so they settled mostly for just knowing....

Right... after executing dozens of their own, who spied for CIA, thanks to Ames.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 29, 2014, 09:36:44 PM
Right... after executing dozens of their own, who spied for CIA, thanks to Ames.

And so the story goes...   But think about it.  I mentioned backtracking.  Do you think dozens of moles could have been executed without major investigations going on, bells ringing, and eventually pointing back to the source?   Its possible and of course I know no different, but I would think it highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: shawnino on October 30, 2014, 06:55:29 AM
And so the story goes...   But think about it.  I mentioned backtracking.  Do you think dozens of moles could have been executed without major investigations going on, bells ringing, and eventually pointing back to the source?   Its possible and of course I know no different, but I would think it highly unlikely.

In the Ames case the bells did ring as the Soviets wrapped up cases so swiftly, so here's something else: even when the CIA knew something was horribly wrong, they did not find the right man (Ames) right away. Agency resources are tied up for a number of years as they searched, and most new operations inside the Soviet Union were put on hold. So in short, by making waves of arrests, the Soviets win three times:
--CIA human intelligence in Soviet Union wiped out
--CIA "too nervous" from a risk/reward point of view to rebuild network for some time
--CIA tearing itself apart searching for the leak in lieu of doing something more productive with those resources.

The only thing the Soviets weren't able to do is frame somebody else for Ames' crimes. Still, three out of four ain't bad.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 30, 2014, 09:05:50 AM
you start to realize just how much damage Snowden has done.
on the contrary... even for such totalitarian minds like you (I feel like I see my fellow Soviet compatriot, really - the needs of the gov't always trump those of its citizens, because the gov't knows better) it is worth to consider that his disclosures resulted in somewhat better procedures / dealing w/ access to info, etc / inside the relevant agencies, so that gov't can continue to spy /at least/ on its citizens  :D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Justinr on October 30, 2014, 09:52:13 AM
I really don't think it's a haystack or a needle problem in regards to your references.  My someone educated but more opinionated guess is it has more to do with politics.  Historically when it comes to spying.. legality isn't considered.  The thing about spying.. is secrecy.  You don't spy and tell.  You put on a straight face and only use the information when you must.. and when it can't backtrack.  You talk about Ames.. we didn't know the Russians knew, and what real advantages did it give them?  They knew the information was useless unless they were wiling to be backtracked.. so they settled mostly for just knowing.  When you look at the bigger picture of spying vs. diplomacy vs usefulness.. you start to realize just how much damage Snowden has done.  And after all these months he's had to think about it, apparently he still isn't bright enough to get it.

Damage to whom?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 31, 2014, 04:13:19 AM
In the Ames case the bells did ring as the Soviets wrapped up cases so swiftly, so here's something else: even when the CIA knew something was horribly wrong, they did not find the right man (Ames) right away. Agency resources are tied up for a number of years as they searched, and most new operations inside the Soviet Union were put on hold. So in short, by making waves of arrests, the Soviets win three times:
--CIA human intelligence in Soviet Union wiped out
--CIA "too nervous" from a risk/reward point of view to rebuild network for some time
--CIA tearing itself apart searching for the leak in lieu of doing something more productive with those resources.

The only thing the Soviets weren't able to do is frame somebody else for Ames' crimes. Still, three out of four ain't bad.

I suppose if you believe the CIA's public testimony this would be true.  Do you?  And what do you think would be worth this public version of events? 
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 31, 2014, 04:16:36 AM
on the contrary... even for such totalitarian minds like you (I feel like I see my fellow Soviet compatriot, really - the needs of the gov't always trump those of its citizens, because the gov't knows better) it is worth to consider that his disclosures resulted in somewhat better procedures / dealing w/ access to info, etc / inside the relevant agencies, so that gov't can continue to spy /at least/ on its citizens  :D

Do you find comfort in labelling people you know nothing about?  In a civil discussion your earn a response no?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 31, 2014, 04:19:13 AM
Damage to whom?

A very good question, and the answer is what lends validity to my statement.  We don;t know exactly, but we do know the list is long.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Justinr on October 31, 2014, 04:59:40 AM
A very good question, and the answer is what lends validity to my statement.  We don;t know exactly, but we do know the list is long.

Oh come off it, that is the hollow argument of dictatorships from the beginning of time.  Who is telling us that the list is long? Why, it's the very governments who he has embarrassed, you don't think there might be a wee little bit of self interest there now do you?
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on October 31, 2014, 05:08:56 AM
Oh come off it, that is the hollow argument of dictatorships from the beginning of time.  Who is telling us that the list is long? Why, it's the very governments who he has embarrassed, you don't think there might be a wee little bit of self interest there now do you?

Not really, Steve's suggesting that you to trust the government that doesn't trust you.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 31, 2014, 10:24:00 AM
Do you find comfort in labelling people you know nothing about? 
as if you know something about Snowden  ;D
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 31, 2014, 02:06:39 PM
Oh come off it, that is the hollow argument of dictatorships from the beginning of time.  Who is telling us that the list is long? Why, it's the very governments who he has embarrassed, you don't think there might be a wee little bit of self interest there now do you?

Okay, so you don't think any of the information was damaging.  The nations who had their private and/or secret information released disagree. 
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 31, 2014, 02:13:13 PM
Not really, Steve's suggesting that you to trust the government that doesn't trust you.

Cheers,
Bart

It's more about reality.  The pie in the sky sentiment that everything be open and transparent and that all secrets are inherently bad has been historically disproved time and time again.  It's actually a dangerous mindset held by people who have never been involved in the inner workings of the intelligence machine and therefore can't possibly understand it, at least in it's entirety.     Everyone would like to live in utopia.. except those whose idea of utopia is to harm  you and me..,
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on October 31, 2014, 02:16:14 PM
as if you know something about Snowden  ;D

And you think this somehow excuses your inaccurate labelling?  Interesting.

Sir, I've known 1000 Snowdens.  They're not worth the time it takes to describe them.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Ray on November 01, 2014, 12:21:28 AM
To try and get behind the causes, at a deeper level, of this current alarm of spying on citizens and the general concern about national security, I'm reminded of something I read back in the 1960's when I was a hippie (of sorts  ;D ).

I was fascinated by a so-called 'think tank' study on the necessity of conflict, and in particular the necessity of promoting alarm about potential threats of conflict in order for governments to function and control their citizens.

The think-tank study was called "Report from Iron Mountain". The fact that I still remember the title is an indication that I am not yet suffering significantly from Alzheimer's.  ;)

It was interesting to do an internet search on this title and discover that the entire report may have been a hoax. Here's the wikipedia link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain

But it's still not certain that it was a hoax. I find that very strange, but perhaps indicative of the current, totally confused state that the world is in, according to the incessant, hour by hour, news reports.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Justinr on November 01, 2014, 05:53:35 AM
Okay, so you don't think any of the information was damaging.  The nations who had their private and/or secret information released disagree. 

Not at all, kindly stop putting words in my mouth, that makes you look rather desperate. Read what I said again and then come back to me or refrain from lashing out wildly with panic in your voice.

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on November 01, 2014, 07:32:10 PM
Not at all, kindly stop putting words in my mouth, that makes you look rather desperate. Read what I said again and then come back to me or refrain from lashing out wildly with panic in your voice.


Wow.. so hostile and well.. desperate and panic stricken.    A wild response for sure.

See how easy that is?  A ten year old can be silly and rude.  Surely we can do better?

What you said sir was nonsensical and was without foundation.  I merely gave you another chance to re-evaluate without embarrassment.  Too bad you passed..
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Steve Weldon on November 01, 2014, 07:34:02 PM
To try and get behind the causes, at a deeper level, of this current alarm of spying on citizens and the general concern about national security, I'm reminded of something I read back in the 1960's when I was a hippie (of sorts  ;D ).

I was fascinated by a so-called 'think tank' study on the necessity of conflict, and in particular the necessity of promoting alarm about potential threats of conflict in order for governments to function and control their citizens.

The think-tank study was called "Report from Iron Mountain". The fact that I still remember the title is an indication that I am not yet suffering significantly from Alzheimer's.  ;)

It was interesting to do an internet search on this title and discover that the entire report may have been a hoax. Here's the wikipedia link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain

But it's still not certain that it was a hoax. I find that very strange, but perhaps indicative of the current, totally confused state that the world is in, according to the incessant, hour by hour, news reports.

I remember this from a long time ago.. I think there have been and currently are people of power who believe in this premise. 

Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Justinr on November 02, 2014, 05:19:42 PM
Wow.. so hostile and well.. desperate and panic stricken.    A wild response for sure.

See how easy that is?  A ten year old can be silly and rude.  Surely we can do better?

What you said sir was nonsensical and was without foundation.  I merely gave you another chance to re-evaluate without embarrassment.  Too bad you passed..

Yeah yeah whatever, keep peddling the message and someday somebody might listen.
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 15, 2014, 07:26:50 AM
Don't want to revive an old thread but thought this was an interesting talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters (http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters)
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on November 15, 2014, 10:12:58 AM
Don't want to revive an old thread but thought this was an interesting talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters (http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters)

Hi,

Glenn's observations are spot on, which also explains why privacy is considered a human right and violation is criminal (unless properly sanctioned by a court of law that could stand the scrutiny of it's peers).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on November 16, 2014, 04:46:59 AM
Glenn's observations are spot on, which also explains why privacy is considered a human right and violation is criminal (unless properly sanctioned by a court of law that could stand the scrutiny of it's peers).

Without getting too technical, Bart, there are precious few countries in which infringement of a "human right" is a criminal offence, as opposed to a civil wrong. It's certainly not the case in the UK.

Jeremy