Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Philip Weber on June 20, 2013, 12:26:42 AM

Title: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Philip Weber on June 20, 2013, 12:26:42 AM
Well, if this is true (and I certainly don't condone pirating) it would seem to indicate that they didn't do it with anti-pirating in mind...I mean it only took 24 hours?!?! So if that wasn't it, what reasons for CC are left? I can think of one right off the bat - Corporate Greed and forgetting/not caring what being a "customer driven" business means.

The drama continues to unfold...keep the popcorn popping.

http://fstoppers.com/adobe-photoshop-cc-has-already-been-pirated-in-just-one-day (http://fstoppers.com/adobe-photoshop-cc-has-already-been-pirated-in-just-one-day) 

Phil (Hanging on to my CS 6 as long as possible)
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: designpartners on June 20, 2013, 01:12:09 AM
Ha, yeah I saw that alright. A quick search shows it working and updateable.
and of course I don't condone pirated software. But if that was one of Adobe's reasons, you gotta admit it's a little funny!
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: CoyoteButtes on June 20, 2013, 02:15:12 AM
No. A LOT funny.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 20, 2013, 08:17:23 AM
No. A LOT funny.


Personally, I don't see anything funny about pirating software.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 20, 2013, 09:32:05 AM
Personally, I don't see anything funny about pirating software.

however that also

1) kills Adobe's competition

2) contributes to Adobe's ecosystem

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 20, 2013, 09:43:25 AM
Personally, I don't see anything funny about pirating software.

No, infringement of any type is not funny ... though, it is humorous when looking back on all the comments some folks have made recently that Adobe was forced to the CC subscription model in part to combat piracy.

It appears that whatever protection Adobe built into the CC code, is about as effective as a java script to remove right-click functionality from an online image gallery to stop viewers from stealing our photos ... it may work for the casual folks ... but not impede those who really want something for nothing. As long as the software is run from individual users desktops ... piracy will be possible and will continue ... 
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Justan on June 20, 2013, 10:26:29 AM
The opportunity to make the software more pirate resistant is certainly there and even enhanced by the frequent need to re-certify the software.

If one were to put a good packet sniffer between the software and one’s router, it would be a relatively simple task to record exactly how the software communicated with the mother ship. After that it may be a fairly simple case of duplicating the correspondence between the software and a validation entity on the other side of the correspondence.

I’d have thought Adobe or whoever they pay to make this code would have put complex random number generators of some ever changing configuration to help insure that it couldn’t be pirated. Did Adobe cheap out here or are the pirates more shrewd than the article presents?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 20, 2013, 01:01:13 PM
The word we're looking for is  IRONIC..
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Philip Weber on June 20, 2013, 07:38:16 PM
Agreed, ironic is a better term from my perspective too. I never see anything funny in theft.

Partially justifying CC with providing them with more security now seems either very naive (something I'd be very surprised at from such a large and successful company) or else something else, like maybe disingenuous, which is something I'm not surprised at by large and successful companies. It would have been one thing if it took a team of hackers working day and night 6 months to break it but...24 hours? That doesn't sound any more secure to me!  

I, in no way, wish to imply that the good folks who develop the software might be less than truthful but with the execs and marketing folks, all bets are off. As I see it, the only way we as their customer base (although it appears THEY don't think of me, the small time photographer, as their base) can influence them now is to vote with our wallets and NOT buy into CC. Maybe some pros can't afford not to have it now but for everyone else, the longer we collectively hold out, the more chance we have for something that works better, even if it's new software that Jeff Schewe has asked input for.

Again, if I could subscribe and after a predetermined commitment back out (due to some unforeseen financial issue) and keep where I was (not fall back to CS6 and lose the ability to use everything I'd done) then I'd subscribe tomorrow. Having nothing to show for it and not knowing how much they plan to raise the cost as time goes on, is the deal breaker for me.

It has been and should continue to be interesting to watch this play out. Even though I loyally purchased every Photoshop and Lightroom upgrade from them (Acrobat Pro every other cycle), I've not received a questionnaire, so maybe they'll read this forum.

Phil

    
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 21, 2013, 01:39:45 AM
This second day piracy thing indicates that either some engineers at Adobe are incompetent or Adobe as a company considers that piracy of their software is overall a good thing so they made it just hard enough that customers willing to pay would not be tempted while hacking pros wouldn't have too hard a time... Life is a balancing act... :-)

Either way, it is a clear proof that the anti piracy argument in favor of "CC only" doesn't hold...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 21, 2013, 04:15:24 AM
Personally, I don't see anything funny about pirating software.

Notwithstanding the sanctimonious response, anyone hear of the legend of Robin Hood ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood

Furthermore, there ain't anything particularly amusing or funny about suddenly having a gun held to your head and being told that your defacto rent is being increased by circa 300% when you don't have a viable alternative.

If Adobe had been slightly more reasonable in their 'demands' and lowered their price instead of trying to maximise their leverage, then the pirates would probably not even have bothered, Adobe's income may well have increased, they wouldn't have suffered such a massive loss of goodwill and certainly wouldn't be facing a battalion of disgruntled photographers et al.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 21, 2013, 07:57:06 AM
Notwithstanding the sanctimonious response, anyone hear of the legend of Robin Hood ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood

Furthermore, there ain't anything particularly amusing or funny about suddenly having a gun held to your head and being told that your defacto rent is being increased by circa 300% when you don't have a viable alternative.

If Adobe had been slightly more reasonable in their 'demands' and lowered their price instead of trying to maximise their leverage, then the pirates would probably not even have bothered, Adobe's income may well have increased, they wouldn't have suffered such a massive loss of goodwill and certainly wouldn't be facing a battalion of disgruntled photographers et al.


The pre-CC versions of photoshop was rampantly pirated so more reasonable price has not much to do with piracy. Everyone talks about greed in executives...but this greed is not limited to executives. It is in all of us and in many very prominent. Some people have no issues with using pirated software even if they can afford paying for it. Is this not greed?

It makes me chuckle when people point their fingers at executives when talking about greed...maybe they should look in the mirror once in a while.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 21, 2013, 08:52:30 AM
The pre-CC versions of photoshop was rampantly pirated so more reasonable price has not much to do with piracy. Everyone talks about greed in executives...but this greed is not limited to executives. It is in all of us and in many very prominent. Some people have no issues with using pirated software even if they can afford paying for it. Is this not greed?

It makes me chuckle when people point their fingers at executives when talking about greed...maybe they should look in the mirror once in a while.

here is a politically charged analogy... Nazi Germany... Adolf H. & a regular SS ensign... both are bad guys, yet who do you think is "badder" ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 21, 2013, 08:54:22 AM
then the pirates would probably not even have bothered
pirates work based on popularity, not on price.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 21, 2013, 08:56:36 AM
but...24 hours?
actually a little googling showed that it was not 24hours, but rather 1 hour or less.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 21, 2013, 09:49:28 AM
pirates work based on popularity, not on price.

True ... hackers/pirates even alter free software to add functionality or further access ... so the price a developer chooses to charge for an app is irrelevant ... Even if Adobe decided to charge $1.99 a month for the full CC package, there would be those users who would feel the price was too high and Adobe was giving in to their greed when setting the price ... if a an unscrupulous user desires an end ... they will find a way no matter how high or low the price is ... more often than not, it is the challenge in circumventing these obstacles, not monetary gain for the hackers involved ...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 21, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
True ... hackers/pirates even alter free software to add functionality or further access ... so the price a developer chooses to charge for an app is irrelevant ... Even if Adobe decided to charge $1.99 a month for the full CC package, there would be those users who would feel the price was too high and Adobe was giving in to their greed when setting the price ... if a an unscrupulous user desires an end ... they will find a way no matter how high or low the price is ... more often than not, it is the challenge in circumventing these obstacles, not monetary gain for the hackers involved ...

yet at a certain price point there will be a breakthrough to generate more (like magnitude more) people actually buying... the issue is that at this price point you can't provide a normal support (tier 1 drones need to be paid too, even in CCs outside USA)... so it makes sense may be to create two tier pricing... 1) very cheap - no support (and those customers typically do not need any support at all) and 2) regular with regular support
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 21, 2013, 01:20:26 PM
... so the price a developer chooses to charge for an app is irrelevant ... Even if Adobe decided to charge $1.99 a month for the full CC package, there would be those users who would feel the price was too high and Adobe was giving in to their greed when setting the price ... if a an unscrupulous user desires an end ... they will find a way no matter how high or low the price is ...

If Adobe had charged $1.99 for the full CC suite I'm pretty sure that none of this ballyhoo would have occurred. (A) because the new price would be a very substantial discount to the old circa $199.00 bi-annual tax for Photoshop alone, and (B) there are numerous advantages to the new CC model, dual platform, remote activation, frequency of updates etc etc.


... more often than not, it is the challenge in circumventing these obstacles, not monetary gain for the hackers involved ...

True, but I don't believe that anyone with either a semi-pro or professional interest would seriously entertain basing their business and income on illegal and unsupported software. For what ? To save $240 a year ? How much did that latest newest and greatest 2.8 zoom cost you? 

For the hackers, yes, it's great publicity but in the end it's also cementing Adobe's dominance and pervasiveness.

Surprisingly (not) I've received an email from Adobe lowering the price of the FULL CC suite to £17.58 a month - that's about $320 a year !  (caveat - but for how long ?). What was the original offer price ? Just perhaps the take-up is not quite as great as Adobe would have us believe.

For the record, I don't use or condone pirated software in any guise. I've paid for every copy of Photoshop and Lightroom since 5 & 1  ..(longer than I can remember) but on this issue I'm firmly in the Bernard Languillier camp.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 21, 2013, 02:55:43 PM
there are numerous advantages to the new CC model, dual platform, remote activation, frequency of updates etc etc.
those advantages has nothing to do technically with "CC" (translation = "subscription only") model and purely depend on what company wants... they can easily do everything like this in "perpetual license" model as well.

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 21, 2013, 03:01:30 PM

True, but I don't believe that anyone with either a semi-pro or professional interest would seriously entertain basing their business and income on illegal and unsupported software. For what ? To save $240 a year ? How much did that latest newest and greatest 2.8 zoom cost you?  

I once (late 1990s) was working in PepsiCo... abroad , not here, in USA... so we were running unlicensed ("pirated") UNIX and DBMS in production environment (beverages sales & distribution covering a territory comparable in size with USA) with silent (don't ask don't tell) approval of our manager (US citizen)... he pretended that many dozens of actual users (sales, accounting, etc) were working using 5 seat license per server... granted the savings (that is not to our pocket, but to the company) were much more than $240...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 21, 2013, 03:43:09 PM
If Adobe had charged $1.99 for the full CC suite I'm pretty sure that none of this ballyhoo would have occurred. (A) because the new price would be a very substantial discount to the old circa $199.00 bi-annual tax for Photoshop alone, and (B) there are numerous advantages to the new CC model, dual platform, remote activation, frequency of updates etc etc.


True, but I don't believe that anyone with either a semi-pro or professional interest would seriously entertain basing their business and income on illegal and unsupported software. For what ? To save $240 a year ? How much did that latest newest and greatest 2.8 zoom cost you? 

For the hackers, yes, it's great publicity but in the end it's also cementing Adobe's dominance and pervasiveness.

Surprisingly (not) I've received an email from Adobe lowering the price of the FULL CC suite to £17.58 a month - that's about $320 a year !  (caveat - but for how long ?). What was the original offer price ? Just perhaps the take-up is not quite as great as Adobe would have us believe.

For the record, I don't use or condone pirated software in any guise. I've paid for every copy of Photoshop and Lightroom since 5 & 1  ..(longer than I can remember) but on this issue I'm firmly in the Bernard Languillier camp.

Nor do I condone any form of infringement ... been paying my way for all my Adobe apps (and every other vendor I have used wares from) since I first purchased Photoshop v2.0 in 1993. I was simply share my thoughts on human nature ... to the point that price is always relative to individual point of view, and there will always be a segment of society/culture that expects and/or will strive to garner something for nothing ... no matter how gracious a vendor may or may not be perceived to be.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on June 21, 2013, 09:43:24 PM
actually a little googling showed that it was not 24hours, but rather 1 hour or less.

Well, according to several sources (by googling a little), it could be pirated from the start, since the same trick used for the previous CS6 worked on the CC version.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 21, 2013, 10:37:22 PM
So, one more time, Asobe made it easier for the pirates and more difficult for its paying customers... Double the price (average per month), add limitations (forced to upgrade, forced to connect to internet every 30 days)... But keep the pirates happy.

Way to go, Adobe. Bravo!

Heck, i needed to move my wife's CS3 from her dead computer to a new hardware, and Adobe's support refused to help. It seems that the d**n pirates are getting a better treatment from Adobe.

And Heck, once more, Adobe doesn't even consider us, photographers or freelance independent web designers, as customers. We refuse to pirate because it is wrong, but Adobe doesn't want us as customers.

Way to go Adobe! Way to go...

And schewe, thank you for your enlightened post a couple of weeks ago about Adobe needing to protect its revenue from pirates... Damn right, 24 hours and it was allegedly hacked..
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 21, 2013, 11:17:05 PM
And schewe, thank you for your enlightened post a couple of weeks ago about Adobe needing to protect its revenue from pirates... Damn right, 24 hours and it was allegedly hacked..

Yeah, ya know, your past posts indicate you are disinclined to listen to reasonable discussion, so I won't bother to go down your rabbit hole...next?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 21, 2013, 11:57:46 PM
Yeah, ya know, your past posts indicate you are disinclined to listen to reasonable discussion, so I won't bother to go down your rabbit hole...next?

Jeff ... though, I know deep down you are a lovable cuddly Teddy bear as a human being ... I'm not quite convinced you want a " reasonable discussion" ... I think you are more inclined that everyone accept your point of view without question and not have thoughts or opinions of our own that may differ with your own ...

While those of us on the outside may not be privy to the details and intimate knowledge you have access to ... we can surmise, maybe inaccurately at times, as to what the realty of the situation is.

All I am really saying is, there is room for difference of opinion, based upon what evidence is available to us as individuals ... unless or until, Adobe makes more official detailed information available ... your views notwithstanding ...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 22, 2013, 12:51:05 AM
Jeff ... though, I know deep down you are a lovable cuddly Teddy bear as a human being ... I'm not quite convinced you want a " reasonable discussion" ...

You are wrong...yaredna is a provocateur...check his/her/it's posts (note the fact that the posts are anonymous and thus pretty much useless). You don't know me from Adam if you think I'm a "lovable cuddly Teddy bear"...I'm not...I would be perfectly happy to eat your throat if it served my purposes...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: kencameron on June 22, 2013, 05:46:23 AM
here is a politically charged analogy... Nazi Germany... Adolf H. & a regular SS ensign... both are bad guys, yet who do you think is "badder" ?
Surely the difference is in the impact of how they are. The regular SS ensign might be a whole lot nastier, but within a narrower sphere of influence.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: gbillett on June 22, 2013, 07:46:40 AM
You are wrong...yaredna is a provocateur...check his/her/it's posts (note the fact that the posts are anonymous and thus pretty much useless). You don't know me from Adam if you think I'm a "lovable cuddly Teddy bear"...I'm not...I would be perfectly happy to eat your throat if it served my purposes...

Yaredna's posts :

Yup. I think we all got the lay of the land.
+1

'So...in summary, if I understand:
. A supplier (today, this Adobe. Tomorrow, this could be Canon) doubled its prices overnight
. They also forced their customers to upgrade every single release, whether they need it or not (if this was canon, imagine having to upgrade for every release, whether you need the features or not). Because they can.
. Some Customers got concerned about four things:
  - doubling of annualized cost
  - forced to upgrade and learn a new tool when they don't need or want to
  - supplier has no incentive to continue to innovate meaningfully to earn their upgrade business
  - no long term access to the creative results of using the tool (PSD...)

. Customers (mostly freelance photographers, graphic artists, video editors and web designers) raised these concerns
. A pack of "experts" start defending the company, its executives, its new business policy, and attacking viciously those who raised the concerns (we saw some here on this site, but many more on webdesign forums, graphic design forums, and other photography forums)

Oh well, masks have fallen... Goodluck getting that genie back in the lamp!'

'There is another idiom widely used in the US: "you can't teach an old dog a new trick"... I don't think that's the case of Jeff, but he sure enjoys acting like a stubborn maverick!

Guess what: in this day and age, some of us don't value these traits. These acts annoy us, and we simply surf to another place, or join another social network. This is not the '70s anymore.'

These are posts from the  Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update thread and comment ( without antagonism ) upon your hegemonistic postings on that particular thread.  You post anything you see fit about others and decry those who may be critical of you for doing so.  Perhaps someone should quote some of your comments as feedback on the Amazon site where your books are sold.   You might not worry about your sales but your legacy surely must worry you.  What goes around comes around.  One of my projects is following Franco around in Spain,  documenting sites of his bullying and excesses.  Feels like there's a need to do exactly the same with you.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 22, 2013, 06:17:23 PM
Feels like there's a need to do exactly the same with you.

Go ahead...I can't think of a bigger waste of your time, but, hey, it's your time–waste it as you see fit.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 24, 2013, 09:15:30 AM
Go ahead...I can't think of a bigger waste of your time, but, hey, it's your time–waste it as you see fit.

Jeff, you are so defensive, it is not even fun picking at you anymore. Good luck selling your books, and good luck to Michael selling videos with your smiling face in them !

Have fun in your own universe, man!
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 24, 2013, 09:30:32 AM
Yeah, ya know, your past posts indicate you are disinclined to listen to reasonable discussion, so I won't bother to go down your rabbit hole...next?

Reasonable discussion:

. a year ago, Adobe creates an alternative business model: subscription based. Very successful, according to their declarations (and related by you)
. The two models lived side by side beautifully for one year.
. A year later, Adobe decided to pull the rug underneath the feet of many professional freelancers, telling them, in 16 different ways, that Adobe is not interested in keeping them as paying customers.

. We heard from you two reasons:
  - Reason #1: the new model stops piracy. Well, we just saw that it did not. Schewe: 0,  disillusioned photographers: 1
  - Reason #2: it takes too much resources to maintain two versions.

Let's debunk the #2 for a second. Yes, I am a software engineer by training (long time ago). And I learn a concept called "subroutines", or "procedures", or "objects", or "separate processes", all could be used to establish two different behaviors depending on the environment.

In practicality, the Adobe new CS7 could have had a software that, basically, would say:
 - If (license = CC) then connect to servers every 30 days, and check if subscription is still running. If it is not, exit here
 - If (license = Perpetual), then connect to servers and check if license is valid and the number of activations

Bottom line: it would take Adobe one software engineer for a maximum of 1 month to develop, test and validate the code. Let's say it takes Adobe 10 engineers for 10 months, just for the sake of the exercise. 100 person month = 1 to 2 million $. Max.

How many freelance professional would it take to get 1 to 2m$ selling $199 upgrades ? 10,000 . Ten thousands. That's all.

Now go on trying to explain to us why Adobe doesn't want us as customers ???

Adobe's decision defies logic. It even puzzled some of their own execs. There must have been endless debates, where the CEO pounded finally on the table and said: "My way or the highway". A corporation is not a democracy.

As to why you decided to defend Adobe and not your fellow photographers, that rationale escapes me.

You want a reasonable debate ? Try helping us understand why Adobe could not keep going with perpetual licenses and subscription. Too cheap ? Raise the price, and let the market decide. Too complicated  to maintain two releases? This is one release for the creative suite with two separate releases for the license manager, the only thing that needs two versions. What else, other than utter snobbism toward the base that made Adobe who it is today ?

Let me close by plagiarizing a quote from a recent Apple marketeer in a keynote speech at WWDC: "Reasonable discussion my a$$ !"
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 24, 2013, 02:51:58 PM
. We heard from you two reasons:
  - Reason #1: the new model stops piracy. Well, we just saw that it did not. Schewe: 0,  disillusioned photographers: 1
  - Reason #2: it takes too much resources to maintain two versions.


Show me anywhere that I said that Adobe did CC to stop piracy...go ahead (I'm pretty sure I never said that because I'm pretty sure it won't, doesn't). I do recall other people saying that was what Adobe had said but I don't think I ever said they adopted subscriptions and dropped perpetual licenses simply to stop piracy.

As for number 2, no, you don't get it. It's not just two license models, it's two different code branches with two different sets of features times as many applications that would have been in CS7. CS7 was dropped because Adobe had a lot of problems managing both code bases for all the various applications, not just Photoshop. Clearly photographers are fixated on Photoshop but when you factor in the entire suite of pro apps, the problems maintaining two sets of features and code becomes monumental.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2013, 08:05:41 PM
As for number 2, no, you don't get it. It's not just two license models, it's two different code branches with two different sets of features times as many applications that would have been in CS7. CS7 was dropped because Adobe had a lot of problems managing both code bases for all the various applications, not just Photoshop. Clearly photographers are fixated on Photoshop but when you factor in the entire suite of pro apps, the problems maintaining two sets of features and code becomes monumental.

Based on your photography background, I am unclear about your programing knowledge Jeff, but it would certainly have been possible to code in such a way that there was no need to maintain several branches of code for 99.999% of the code. In fact my educated guess is that this is exactly how it was done.

The only reason why it may have been done differently is a mgt decision to make it hard to maintain these 2 branches, which stops to be an engineering issue.

Each CC build is a full traditionnal desktop app, right? You download a dmg and installl it like we used to.

All there was to do was to call one of the iterations CS7.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Damon Lynch on June 24, 2013, 08:10:09 PM
It's not just two license models, it's two different code branches with two different sets of features times as many applications that would have been in CS7.

Even this is simplified. In all but the most trivial software projects, there are many branches coexisting simultaneously. Pulling some of them together and putting out a release takes real time and resources. Few projects are blessed with someone of the mastery of a Linus Torvalds, who makes it look easy. So I'm not surprised Adobe ran into problems. What surprises me is how they got themselves into the situation to begin with.

And Bernard I do not agree with your analysis because when a release is a cut, updates for bug and security fixes must be released over the lifetime of the project.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2013, 08:25:02 PM
And Bernard I do not agree with your analysis because when a release is a cut, updates for bug and security fixes must be released over the lifetime of the project.

True, but we both know there are easy ways around this and we also both know that it would take a split second for Adobe architects to figure this out.  :)

I will not comment more on the technical aspects in this public forum.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 24, 2013, 09:01:39 PM
Based on your photography background, I am unclear about your programing knowledge Jeff, but it would certainly have been possible to code in such a way that there was no need to maintain several branches of code for 99.999% of the code. In fact my educated guess is that this is exactly how it was done.

Well, let's see, I've managed two engineers working on 7 different plug-ins–which compared to Photoshop (not to mention the rest of the suite of products) is tiny...but we've had major problems trying to run parallel products so we killed off product support for earlier than CS3.

And, I've worked with the Photoshop engineers since Photoshop 4 as an alpha tester and directly with Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan on ACR/LR. So, while I don't write code (do you?), I'm painfully aware of the issues of code branches and trying to dev parallel products. Whether or not you want to believe it, trying to run CC subscription with evolving new features and a CS7 with locked in features while not 2X the work is considerably more difficult than what you seem to think it should be.

And whether or not you choose to believe it, it would take a massive reorg to change the accounting runs to allow incremental new features to be added to a perpetual license model. You also overlook that it's not just Photoshop but ALL of the pro applications that are in this scenario...so, you want Adobe to make modifications just for photographers and ignore the rest of the pro app users? We've already been down that road, photographers simply don't make up a large portion of Adobe users...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2013, 09:16:30 PM
And, I've worked with the Photoshop engineers since Photoshop 4 as an alpha tester and directly with Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan on ACR/LR. So, while I don't write code (do you?), I'm painfully aware of the issues of code branches and trying to dev parallel products. Whether or not you want to believe it, trying to run CC subscription with evolving new features and a CS7 with locked in features while not 2X the work is considerably more difficult than what you seem to think it should be.

And whether or not you choose to believe it, it would take a massive reorg to change the accounting runs to allow incremental new features to be added to a perpetual license model. You also overlook that it's not just Photoshop but ALL of the pro applications that are in this scenario...so, you want Adobe to make modifications just for photographers and ignore the rest of the pro app users? We've already been down that road, photographers simply don't make up a large portion of Adobe users...

It can be done in such a way that it is very complex, or in other ways that make it super simple also for the full suite (regardless of the importance of photographers). This is mostly not an engineering decision, it is a business one.

The impact on accounting may be more significant, I wouldn't know.

And yes, I did code.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Glenn NK on June 25, 2013, 12:38:16 AM
Sometimes hacked software is an advantage for the company whose software has been hacked.

Way back in the early days of engineering CAD drafting, a company called Autodesk developed AutoCad and it ran on a PC not a mainframe.   There were several other full blown CAD systems costing many thousands of dollars, well protected, and not highly used - they disappeared in the '80's.

AutoCad was quite easily hacked - numerous people are still using hacked AutoCad.

As a result of the many hacked copies being used around the world was that AutoCad became the de facto standard for engineering companies, and it still is.  Wish I had invested in it in 1980.

Seems to be a lot of hate for Adobe - I'm wondering if we could move on and get over with the snits already?

Glenn
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 25, 2013, 12:51:16 AM
Seems to be a lot of hate for Adobe - I'm wondering if we could move on and get over with the snits already?

I agree...and it's gotten to the point where anybody who has an opinion that might diverge from the Adobe Haters is shouted down and ridiculed...Yes, there's been a sea change,some people are really upset and seem hellbent on extracting a degree of revenge on Adobe (and anybody who may have a differing view).

Now it seems some people gleefully get a thrill at the fact that apparently, CC has been pirated. Note that I say apparently because I've only heard claims not seen any proof that CC has been hacked, long term. Yes a few people may have been able to pirate some elements of the CC...how long that stands is yet to be seen. Every time a hacker hacks, a white hat counter hacks.

Who's to say that the next phone-home attempt on the hacked software won't crash and burn. I doubt Adobe is sitting there doing nothing about the situation. Course, that won't get any press because, well, Adobe won't be talking about their efforts at fighting the pirating...but the media seems thrilled that somebody is claiming to have hacked CC and pirated it.

In the grand scheme of things, this is all way to new to know how this is all gonna shake out.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 25, 2013, 01:06:46 AM
This is mostly not an engineering decision, it is a business one.

No, it is an attempt to coerce yr client base ( not just photographers ), who Adobe think they have by the throat, into a massive price hike on the spurious pretext of accounting difficulties. It's trying to obtain maximum leverage out of a defacto monopoly. Business ? Not unless you're using it in the vein of Don Corleone.

In practicality, the Adobe new CS7 could have had a software that, basically, would say:
 - If (license = CC) then connect to servers every 30 days, and check if subscription is still running. If it is not, exit here
 - If (license = Perpetual), then connect to servers and check if license is valid and the number of activations

Bottom line: it would take Adobe one software engineer for a maximum of 1 month to develop, test and validate the code. Let's say it takes Adobe 10 engineers for 10 months, just for the sake of the exercise. 100 person month = 1 to 2 million $.

I think Yaredna makes an excellent point, Jeff - care to respond ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 25, 2013, 01:12:51 AM
I think Yaredna makes an excellent point, Jeff - care to respond ?

Nope, because Yaredna points not based on facts but speculation...he/she/it doesn't understand the implications of a dual licensing scheme–do you? If you did, you wouldn't ask the question.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 25, 2013, 02:00:37 AM
If you did ... you wouldn't ask the question.

The only question was 'would you care to respond ?'
And you did in one word - nope.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 02:32:38 AM
Way back in the early days of engineering CAD drafting, a company called Autodesk developed AutoCad and it ran on a PC not a mainframe.   There were several other full blown CAD systems costing many thousands of dollars, well protected, and not highly used - they disappeared in the '80's.

AutoCad was quite easily hacked - numerous people are still using hacked AutoCad.

As a result of the many hacked copies being used around the world was that AutoCad became the de facto standard for engineering companies, and it still is.  Wish I had invested in it in 1980.

CATIA is alive and kicking ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATIA )
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 25, 2013, 02:37:02 AM
The only question was 'would you care to respond ?'

Ah, but I had already responded to his/her/it's post and I wasn't interested in responding you yours. Let's see, you joined using an anonymous screen name on May 9th, but to your credit you've actually made some useful posts on LuLa not related to Photoshop CC. On the other hand, yaredna joined May 7th–also with an anonymous screen name and pretty much all of his/her/it's posts have been directed towards the Photoshop CC situation. Seems LuLa has gotten a bunch of new members due to the CC announcements...

Well, I'm done responding to new members who choose not to reveal their identities...sorry, hiding behind an anonymous screen name and taking pot shots from the sidelines isn't something I'm gonna engage in. Make of that what you want. There's a reason that new people are labeled "Newbie" when they first join LuLa...it means that as new members, they may not really understand the dynamics of the community. Given that, I tend to discount new member posts–particularly new members that have a clear agenda such as yaredna who seems hellbent on dissing Adobe and anybody with the balls to NOT be an Adobe Hater™...

So, Manoli, you have a choice...care to introduce yourself to the community? Care to offer your credentials? Show some work? Disclose your real name? Be a member of LuLa? If not, the odds of me responding to future questions towards me from you just went way down.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 02:39:17 AM
trying to run CC subscription with evolving new features and a CS7 with locked in features while not 2X the work is considerably more difficult than what you seem to think it should be.

just don't lock the features, that's it... and don't invent fictional stories about accounting...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 02:40:47 AM
Well, let's see, I've managed two engineers
so do you have a dedicated SCM/build/release people ? you didn't... so your experience is ZERO.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 02:45:53 AM
so, you want Adobe to make modifications just for photographers and ignore the rest of the pro app users? We've already been down that road, photographers simply don't make up a large portion of Adobe users...
it seems they make enough users for Adobe to have a dedicated app for them for them  ;) which is by the way available under both license options and regardless of your "accounting FUD" will get constant upgrades to its functionality shared with ACR... apparently w/o "huge reorganization".
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 25, 2013, 02:49:26 AM
so do you have a dedicated SCM/build/release people ? you didn't... so your experience is ZERO.

Well, actually yes, we use SCM and TestTrack for bugs and code check in/out, does that mean I'm not useless?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 25, 2013, 02:51:59 AM
will get constant upgrades to its functionality shared with ACR... apparently w/o "huge reorganization".

ACR 8.x will get upgraded for CS6 for new cameras/profiles but not new functionality. No new reorg required because it falls under the bug fix/maintenance revenue recognition rules of a perpetual license...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 25, 2013, 03:40:19 AM
So, Manoli, you have a choice...

Dear Jeff,
You read an aggressiveness in my post, which was never there. 'Pot shots' ? It was a genuine question, on a point which I felt warranted some consideration. No more, no less.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Manoli is my real name. Although I have only just joined LuLa, it was not for want of trying - but certainly spurred on by the recent CC debacle. It took an exchange with Chris Sanderson to finally get me approved having been constantly rejected by the members application screen. Consequently, I'd describe myself as a 'lurker' of long standing.

FYI, I stopped 'pro' photography back in 1986 but have maintained an ongoing interest ever since. My  photography is of a personal nature, with a few exceptions. No, I'm not interested in displaying my work, and no, I don't feel that that's necessarily a prerequisite for a useful contribution to LuLa.

I'm not an Adobe hater, nor do I feel that the general assault you suffer is warranted. but I do think that the recent events are a monumental mistake, as my few posts make clear.

Finally, not wanting to hijack this thread any longer with a personal statement, you have my full name and email - any further info eg telephone numbers, cv, etc - send me a pm and I'll reply with pleasure.

All best
M

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 25, 2013, 04:23:27 AM
You read an aggressiveness in my post, which was never there. 'Pot shots' ? It was a genuine question, on a point which I felt warranted some consideration. No more, no less.

As I said, you have made some useful posts not directly related to Photoshop CC...on the other hand, yaredna not so much...that's what I was referring to as pot shots...

If you have been paying attention to recent posts relating to the CC announcement by Adobe (which happened May 6th just a day or so before a lot of newbies seemed to have joined LuLa) it seems that anybody that tries to explain Adobe's position regarding subscription vs perpetual licenses is tagged as a pariah even if speaking the truth...particularly when speaking the truth that photographers don't want to hear.

Here are the facts...Adobe started a subscription service with CS5.5...it was mildly successful. With the release of CS6, subscription licenses grew faster than expected. It was a revenue model attractive to Adobe for several reasons–first it evens out revenue and allows for the addition of new features during the subscription cycle. Perpetual licenses are restricted because of revenue restrictions that limit new features for perpetual licenses (this point has been debated but not disproved). Adobe had major problems when releasing the subscription/perpetual licenses for Photoshop CS6 13.1 and 13.0.4 because of the different code required for subscription/perpetual licenses (there is some debate that this should be a problem–but Adobe saw it as a major problem). Adobe decided to kill the perpetual licenses for what would have been CS7 and offer only a subscription license for Photoshop CC and to continue to sell and support Photoshop CS6.

The shyte hit the fan...

Photographers got rather upset even though photographers as a group are a small minority of Adobe Pro app users (which when I pointed this out I was castigated for even though I was simply telling the truth).

Many people transferred their hate for Adobe towards me because: 1-I didn't see the CC announcement as being all bad (the engineers are largely supportive because it means they can add new features without being restricted by accounting rules) and 2–I didn't jump all over Adobe and offer unconditional support for photographers...

So, when you asked that simple question, you weren't asking a simple question. You were asking a charged question that had ramifications (and still does).

We'll see how things shake out...let's see where we are 1 year from now. For now, current users of Photoshop CS3 and above can license Photoshop CC for $9.95 a month. That's a cost of $119.40 in fees to use Photoshop CC or users can buy a perpetual license for CS6 which Adobe has stated will be undated for the foreseeable future. But apparently this doesn't satisfy many of the vocal critics...

Ya know? I really don't care that much any more...I have a subscription for the entire CC suite of products (I use Photoshop, Lightroom, Illustrator, InDesign and Acrobat on a regular basis). Guess what, I see the CC as a deal for multi app users...I also see $9.95/month as a deal for Photoshop CC (yes, only for the next year where the price may be increased...kinda like ATT Universe will go from $19.95/month for the next 6 months and then go up).

And yes, I'm getting pretty tired of the same old pissing matches that seem to occur. Nobody is gonna solve anything by posting anything here on LuLa...but it seems to offer a release to some that want to vent and rant. I'm pretty much done with that now.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 25, 2013, 05:29:00 AM
Photographers got rather upset ...(which when I pointed this out I was castigated for even though I was simply telling the truth).  Many people transferred their hate for Adobe towards me ... I didn't jump all over Adobe and offer unconditional support for photographers...

And I thought I made it clear that the ' general assault you suffer is unwarranted'. On reflection I think I understated the unwarranted part.

There is life after CC ...
If I offended you in any way, I apologise, it was certainly not my intention.

Now, peace pipe ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: BartvanderWolf on June 25, 2013, 05:49:43 AM
For now, current users of Photoshop CS3 and above can license Photoshop CC for $9.95 a month. That's a cost of $119.40 in fees to use Photoshop CC or users can buy a perpetual license for CS6 which Adobe has stated will be undated for the foreseeable future. But apparently this doesn't satisfy many of the vocal critics...

C'mon Jeff, you can do better than that, can't you? The $9.95 a month is only available in the USA, and is a temporary discounted rate for a limited period (and doesn't it require an annual commitment?). After that period the additional money invested in the software (which many of us already have as CS6 perpetual licence), and some of the benefits gained with new features, is out of the window with nothing to show for it, the moment one stops with perpetually paying the higher fees.

Also that CS6 will be updated for the foreseeable future is somewhat dubious. Are you so sure that bugs that have currently been fixed in the CC version of Photoshop, are also fixed in CS6 perpetual? I haven't seen any updates for my CS6 perpetual license product for some time. Of course new features available in ACR-8 in the CC version, are also not available in the CS6 version of ACR. So what does updated mean, in practice.

And of course this is not the only explanation for the reduced satisfaction of vocal critics and other Photoshop users ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: gbillett on June 25, 2013, 07:01:04 AM
'There's a reason that new people are labeled "Newbie" when they first join LuLa...it means that as new members, they may not really understand the dynamics of the community'

Care to explain what these dynamics are,  or where we can find them?

With Lula's corporate move into social networking you may get a load of fresh 'newbies' who might not stay under the withering criticism you deliver.  Can the administrators of the site make clear what the 'dynamics' of the Forum are for their benefit.  Or are these the dynamics of Schewe?   

I have learnt a lot from you Jeff,  sorry to see you come down so hard on people making their opinions.  Is your strident defence of Adobe personal or is it a corporate stance this site takes?  After all you market products associated with Adobe products. 

Many of us feel Adobe have shafted its photographic user base - your intolerance of this view being expressed ( and of good people making this view ) is the issue here too. 

And although I maybe a newbie i have followed this site for many years as I am sure other 'newbies' have. 

I must say for those drifting in from Facebook ( and I really like the Facebook pages ) this really isnt a very good advertisement.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: gbillett on June 25, 2013, 07:15:00 AM
ps

'As I said, you have made some useful posts not directly related to Photoshop CC...on the other hand, yaredna not so much...that's what I was referring to as pot shots...'

Who are you to comment on how 'useful' other member's posts are?  A level playing field here - I think not.  'Usefulness' of posts lol.  Never seen that before. Are you a secret moderator?

Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 25, 2013, 07:50:39 AM
When you go into a new pub, you figure out the dynamics for yourself, don't you? Come in wild-eyed and ranting, your face hidden, and you and others are not going to be offered a tasty pint, are you? Hey, the pub's got a Facebook page. So that makes any difference?

You'd get a better hearing if you assumed others here are honest and refrained from snide comments like "you market products associated with Adobe products". This whole thing is a bit more nuanced than the kind of debate you find on Facebook, you know.

John
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: gbillett on June 25, 2013, 08:39:36 AM
When you go into a new pub, you figure out the dynamics for yourself, don't you? Come in wild-eyed and ranting, your face hidden, and you and others are not going to be offered a tasty pint, are you? Hey, the pub's got a Facebook page. So that makes any difference?

You'd get a better hearing if you assumed others here are honest and refrained from snide comments like "you market products associated with Adobe products". This whole thing is a bit more nuanced than the kind of debate you find on Facebook, you know.

John

Hi John

Are Jeff's posts remotely nuanced?   Interestingly in other threads the debate is better with less vitriol and codemnation.   Is it just the CC issue here dividing loyalties?  I do assume people are honest until they start unreasonably lambasting others and apparent lack of effective moderation asks further questions.  More effective site management would mean those questions do not even arise.  For the record I have no doubt in anyone's integrity here.

Face hidden?  I have provided links to my websites previously,  here again www.geoffreybillettphotography.co.uk  and www.spanishcivilwarphotography.co.uk.  I'll add them as a signature.

I cannot help but repeat myself - I have learned enormously from this site,  from Jeff,  Michael,  have purchased books and videos etc but cannot stand bullying.  Until last year I spent a career as a Community Psychiatric Nurse ( maintaining photography as a means of personal expression ) supporting people mostly suppressed by prejudice and marginalisation.  I enjoy Jeff's robust style but I feel it has gone too far recently.  I have seen the stifling results of bullying too frequently.

Yes the Facebook page does make a difference.  Lula is more corporate and the move to a Facebook page is not accidental.  It wants and needs more people on its books.  It is a new age now - Adobe has recognised that and doing what it believes in to make those changes ( rightly or wrongly),  similarly Lula is doing the same.  The knowledge base available here is to be admired and respected but new friends will not be made by some of the attitudes expressed and comments made about 'newbies' and the wanton decrying of people who make comments others might not agree with. 

As for pubs I do not use them;  too many barrack room lawyers.  I prefer continental bars which are less staid in their ways and flexible to customer's needs.  If your interpretation of nuanced means entering a smoky old bar and staying quiet for 5 years before being allowed to make an opinion,  or offering deference to the opinion of 'betters',  it is not my way. Sorry.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 25, 2013, 09:26:12 AM
I did say "This whole thing", not Jeff's posts, and smoke was banned from pubs long ago, quite rightly. But thanks for providing the links - do put them in your signature because I doubt I'm the only one who will be fascinated by the Spanish Civil War project (not looked at the other link yet).

Anyway, I'm not sure Jeff has become any more strident and suspect it's more a matter of reflecting the hysteria back at its author! You sow what you reap, and anonymous posting just encourages these spiralling arguments. Is Lula more corporate? Not sure, at least not yet.

John
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 10:36:06 AM
bug fix/maintenance revenue recognition rules of a perpetual license...
and so will new features... you just do not charge for them, so revenue recognition is very simple...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 10:37:48 AM
Well, actually yes, we use SCM and TestTrack for bugs and code check in/out, does that mean I'm not useless?
Jeff... "use" != "have a dedicated team" (who just does that on a full time basis), that what makes difference between a small business (as "yours") and Adobe.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 25, 2013, 10:45:57 AM
you just do not charge for them, so revenue recognition is very simple...
Only if you're (blissfully) ignorant of accounting practice.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: gbillett on June 25, 2013, 02:24:37 PM
'Is Lula more corporate? Not sure, at least not yet'

Has flashing ads and a Publisher who needs to earn his keep   :o
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 25, 2013, 02:32:58 PM
Has flashing ads and a Publisher who needs to earn his keep   :o
Maybe, but I never see them!
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Glenn NK on June 25, 2013, 05:44:59 PM
CATIA is alive and kicking ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATIA )

Alive and kicking is not the same as dominance.

I've been a structural engineer (still practicing) since 1966, have used CAD drafting extensively since 1983, have a structural engineer son that works with architects - they all use AutoCad.  I'm one of the very few that doesn't, but my program is compatible with AC.

Glenn
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 06:11:41 PM
Alive and kicking is not the same as dominance.

it dominates its intended market... as for autocad... raw converters in cameras (firmware) dominate anything adobe makes 100:1 or more.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 06:14:42 PM
Only if you're (blissfully) ignorant of accounting practice.
do you have something to say about accounting practice and LR ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 25, 2013, 06:59:55 PM
do you have something to say about accounting practice and LR ?
Only that your comment displayed your ignorance of the former.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 25, 2013, 07:03:42 PM


Seems to be a lot of hate for Adobe - I'm wondering if we could move on and get over with the snits already?

Glenn

Totally agree. Everyone said their piece, now to focus on photography and not how easy it is to develop software.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 25, 2013, 08:23:49 PM
Only that your comment displayed your ignorance of the former.
so tell me how Adobe accounting lives with both license models at once for LR and can't live with both license models for PS/ACR ?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 25, 2013, 09:57:31 PM
so tell me how Adobe accounting lives with both license models at once for LR and can't live with both license models for PS/ACR ?

Does it really matter? Adobe can choose whatever method of payment they like. You choose either to accept their terms or move on. Continually arguing about the why's and why nots is totally pointless noise.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 25, 2013, 10:03:13 PM
Does it really matter? Adobe can choose whatever method of payment they like. You choose either to accept their terms or move on. Continually arguing about the why's and why nots is totally pointless noise.

It is obviously pointless noise seen from Adobe's perspective, but it is reasonably useful for those sharing our agenda, which focuses on having as many photographers as possible joining our movement aiming at supporting alternatives of Photoshop.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 25, 2013, 10:54:40 PM
It is obviously pointless noise seen from Adobe's perspective, but it is reasonably useful for those sharing our agenda, which focuses on having as many photographers as possible joining our movement aiming at supporting alternatives of Photoshop.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, if this thread was truly about supporting alternatives in a positive way, then I am all for it. This thread is all about bashing Adobe...once again. People just got to let it go.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 26, 2013, 01:28:05 AM
so tell me how Adobe accounting lives with both license models at once for LR and can't live with both license models for PS/ACR ?
Most likely, materiality. Also you probably aren't aware that more than one revenue (and cost) recognition policy can co-exist, or that a company can change or reinterpret its policies to reflect the underlying business, though for good reasons that is not a trivial undertaking.

And whether or not you choose to believe it, it would take a massive reorg to change the accounting runs to allow incremental new features to be added to a perpetual license model.
If you know a bit about the area (and Jeff's been on the wrong end of a lecture on Sarbanes Oxley compliance) that's a fair summary, and not the "fiction" of your over-simplified view.

John
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 26, 2013, 10:55:31 AM
Most likely, materiality. Also you probably aren't aware that more than one revenue (and cost) recognition policy can co-exist, or that a company can change or reinterpret its policies to reflect the underlying business, though for good reasons that is not a trivial undertaking.

great, they do this for LR so they can do that for another product (say PS/ACR)... because they already have everything in place... and then whether you call a piece of code a new feature, a bug fixing or a routine maintenance is purely game of words and is up to the company... for example supporting a non traditional CFA... you call it a routine maintenance, I call it a new feature...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 26, 2013, 10:58:03 AM
Does it really matter? Adobe can choose whatever method of payment they like. You choose either to accept their terms or move on. Continually arguing about the why's and why nots is totally pointless noise.
look @ M$ - it was forced to change their approach... and what you (or "Schewes") are saying that is exactly what "Adobe" hopes for (that people will shut up)... if you do not like to read the noise, move on... 
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 26, 2013, 11:56:21 AM
great, they do this for LR so they can do that for another product (say PS/ACR)... because they already have everything in place... and then whether you call a piece of code a new feature, a bug fixing or a routine maintenance is purely game of words and is up to the company... for example supporting a non traditional CFA... you call it a routine maintenance, I call it a new feature...
Don't jump that far - you're heading over to Enron territory. It's certainly not a game of words or up to the company! There are a mass of legal restrictions, the auditors to convince, the tax authorities, investors etc. You'd be expected to disclose deviations from existing policy to the auditors, for example, and the bigger their financial impact, the louder the alarm bells and the tougher the questions. But that said, it's simplistic to say that the revenue recognition policies stopped them moving to as-ready feature releases within a perpetual licence model. They would have been compelled to significantly change their policies and compliance systems/culture to reflect the reshaped business. For a single product that isn't easy, while for a big chunk of your product range it would have been costly and tortuous, and it would have been one argument against as-ready releases while continuing perpetual licences. But one argument, and only if they had ever wanted to go that way.

Sorry if that's convoluted. There's a lot of grey between your "simple as that" and Jeff's original "they were prevented", and the truth is close to the "huge difficulties" that he talks about now.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 26, 2013, 12:20:11 PM
look @ M$ - it was forced to change their approach... and what you (or "Schewes") are saying that is exactly what "Adobe" hopes for (that people will shut up)... if you do not like to read the noise, move on... 

Vlad, I actually love reading these meaningless rants...provides light entertainment for me. Keep it up...summer TV is kind of slow.  :D
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 26, 2013, 12:24:28 PM
So long as you don't enjoy my explanations of accounting practice, fine - because that would be worrying.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 26, 2013, 01:36:36 PM
Don't jump that far - you're heading over to Enron territory. It's certainly not a game of words or up to the company! There are a mass of legal restrictions, the auditors to convince, the tax authorities, investors etc. You'd be expected to disclose deviations from existing policy to the auditors, for example, and the bigger their financial impact, the louder the alarm bells and the tougher the questions. But that said, it's simplistic to say that the revenue recognition policies stopped them moving to as-ready feature releases within a perpetual licence model. They would have been compelled to significantly change their policies and compliance systems/culture to reflect the reshaped business. For a single product that isn't easy, while for a big chunk of your product range it would have been costly and tortuous, and it would have been one argument against as-ready releases while continuing perpetual licences. But one argument, and only if they had ever wanted to go that way.

Sorry if that's convoluted. There's a lot of grey between your "simple as that" and Jeff's original "they were prevented", and the truth is close to the "huge difficulties" that he talks about now.

it is not convoluted - we all know that the only reason for "subscription only" is to improve revenue... the rest (difficulties to maintain a code, accounting issues, etc, etc) is just smoke & mirrors...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 26, 2013, 01:36:58 PM
Vlad, I actually love reading these meaningless rants...provides light entertainment for me. Keep it up...summer TV is kind of slow.  :D
yawn... get a mirror, Che.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 26, 2013, 01:39:12 PM
So long as you don't enjoy my explanations of accounting practice, fine - because that would be worrying.
it is their difficulties and they do not prevent companies to deliver new features in products sold w/ perpetual license... again, M$ has no issues for example... that simply tells that whatever difficulties are there they are all can be easily solved by a big company.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 26, 2013, 02:11:31 PM
So long as you don't enjoy my explanations of accounting practice, fine - because that would be worrying.

John, I save your accounting posts for late evening when I want to fall asleep.  ;D
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Alan Gilbertson on June 26, 2013, 03:06:57 PM
As for number 2, no, you don't get it. It's not just two license models, it's two different code branches with two different sets of features times as many applications that would have been in CS7. CS7 was dropped because Adobe had a lot of problems managing both code bases for all the various applications, not just Photoshop. Clearly photographers are fixated on Photoshop but when you factor in the entire suite of pro apps, the problems maintaining two sets of features and code becomes monumental.
Any of us who actually engage with the folks at Adobe understand that point. It goes beyond just the complexities of the code base, although that is huge. The logistics involved in manufacturing a complete set of disks for each product and each version of the suite, the package design, manufacture and shipping for each country, customer eduction and all the other stuff that goes with a major release are immense. The human cost of forcing 50 or more highly creative engineering teams to all meet the same arbitrary deadline every x months is also immense. Like you, I've talked to a lot of these folks, and I've seen the demoralizing effect of having to defer new features because they didn't fit into the strait jacket of a fixed release cycle.

My prediction is that we'll now see a lot more innovation and better-quality code as stress levels go down and the different teams can get back to developing on their individual schedules, as they did before the Creative Suite came along. There are already indications of that. As for the complaints about it all being too expensive, I don't agree. In the realm of industrial-grade tools for the creative field, Adobe has always been the least expensive manufacturer out there -- one seat of Maya costs about the same as six seats of a CS6 design suite. Speedgrade was a hugely expensive product before Adobe acquired them and bundled it with Production Premium. I've never understood how they kept their end-user prices so low, so I'm not disposed to complain.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: kers on June 26, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
"
....My prediction is that we'll now see a lot more innovation and better-quality code as stress levels go down and the different teams can get back to developing on their individual schedules, as they did before the Creative Suite came along... "


The CS-idea did come from Adobe as well... Why not go back to the individual programs?
I can imagine the stress with the CS versions, not to mention the CS versions + the CC versions combined...
Just - sell - a new version of each program when it is ready.


Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Alan Gilbertson on June 26, 2013, 04:54:25 PM
Going back to individual products is an option. It would be a huge (far, far more than CC) price increase for most of their customers, though, and it still wouldn't get round the manufacture, packaging and shipping issues that would force prices even higher. I think we all have to get used to the fact that cloud delivery is the new DVD. It's not just Adobe. Everyone's going to be going that route. I remember the howls of pain when Apple dropped the floppy disk from their machines. How did that work out? Now there are no more disk-based versions of OS X, never mind apps like Final Cut.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 26, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
You seem obsessed with packaging and shipping. Few people here are objecting to the withdrawal of the boxed version.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Alan Gilbertson on June 26, 2013, 05:59:48 PM
I don't know that "obsessed" is necessarily the right term. :D There are plenty of reasons why the suites were a great idea and abandoning them would be a giant leap backwards. The whole painful evolution involved in designing, manufacturing and shipping a product is just something I happen to be quite familiar with. My purpose in jumping in on this thread and a couple of others is the hope that I might help temper the vitriol with a bit of insight. There are many more constituents, and a lot more factors involved than any one product or a single group of users. The internal discussions on all these things are a long way from being finished at Adobe, based on several conversations I've had. People are still working through all the details, problems, solutions, unintended consequences and "Oh, ohhh. We didn't think of that!" Forums like this one provide great feedback, and are paid close attention to. Take a look at the thread Jeff started on what a new tool for photographers might look like. Why would anyone at Adobe ask him to do that if they weren't interested?

It's human nature that we think our problem is obvious, and our needs are the ones that {insert company name here} should be caring the most about. We do that because these things are in our faces every day; it's what's most real to us. We think, "Well, they obviously know about (x)!" No, they don't. Despite all the surveys, all the interviews, all the research, there are tons of nitty-gritty practicalities that "they" don't know about. It's up to us to tell them.

It's too easy to forget that what we're talking about isn't a faceless entity, but a bunch of real people with the same frailties we all have. Certainly they make mistakes, we all do. It's been to Adobe's credit that even when they don't get it right the first time and even though they can't possibly please all the people, all the time, they're always trying to make their stuff better. I have to give them credit for that even when it's my own feathers being ruffled, because all the Adobe people I've met are genuine, sincere people, the kind you'd happily invite over for dinner. I've looked them in the eye, and I didn't see greed; I saw commitment, real interest in what I had to say and a desire to do great work. I'm pretty confident that the issues will be addressed and solutions that work for both sides will be worked out.

Nobody in the Photoshop team or their management ever said "Photographers? Who needs them? Let 'em rot!" If you know any of them, as surely many people here do besides me and Jeff, you have to laugh at that idea. Yet that's the impression one would get from some of the comments I've seen. I believe that's mean-spirited and wrong. By all means object, point out the error and offer suggestions. Don't demonize people who are quite sincerely trying to do the best job they can on behalf of all the people who use their products.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 26, 2013, 06:03:13 PM
What boxes? Who needs freaking boxes and discs? ... I haven't purchased a boxed edition of Adobe software since they started offering download versions circa CS3 ...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 26, 2013, 06:45:15 PM
Take a look at the thread Jeff started on what a new tool for photographers might look like. Why would anyone at Adobe ask him to do that if they weren't interested?

Not for nothing, but nobody from Adobe asked me to post that thread...All the credit or blame rests with me. I don't do things because Adobe asks me to and I don't NOT do things because Adobe asks me not to. It seems most people really have no clue what my "relationship" is with Adobe...it's simple, I don't have a "relationship" with Adobe.

I have friends at Adobe...I consult with the engineers (for free) I do alpha and beta testing (for free). I have given lectures (for a fee) that were sponsored by Adobe. I have written papers for Adobe (for a fee) and yes, a company I'm involved with licensed PhotoKit Sharpener routines for inclusion in Lightroom and Camera Raw (for a fee). But I don't work for nor do I represent Adobe. My opinions (and actions) are my own for good or bad.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Alan Gilbertson on June 26, 2013, 08:27:21 PM
Indeed, and thank you for starting it, because it's a great conversation to be having at this stage of the game. My apologies for misinterpreting its origin. I'd have to have lived under a stone not to be aware of your work ("The Digital Negative" is on the bookshelf beside me as I write this). I enjoy the beta testing. It allows me to feel I'm contributing to the product(s) rather than simply consuming them, and it keeps my inner geek happy. I'm sure there are a lot of other folks in this forum who are much the the same way.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Glenn NK on June 26, 2013, 08:32:34 PM
it is not convoluted - we all know that the only reason for "subscription only" is to improve revenue... the rest (difficulties to maintain a code, accounting issues, etc, etc) is just smoke & mirrors...

I felt that was pretty obvious from the get-go.  In fact on some forums, that's the major complaint (cost).

And if it's true, then what's all the fuss about?   The increase in the cost of food has been more significant.

Stuff like that happens, and it happened.

It seems no one is going on and on about the cost of gear, but a little increase in the cost of software and the whole sky is falling in.

C'est la vie - or c'est la guerre.

Cheers

Glenn
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 26, 2013, 09:55:10 PM

It seems no one is going on and on about the cost of gear, but a little increase in the cost of software and the whole sky is falling in.


If it were only cost that changed when comparing the perpetual licensing model to the newly adopted CC rental model ... I would concede that stuff happens ... you have to be understanding and go with the flow. Price being the most recognizable and most relatable factor will take a higher station on the list of complaints. That's just human nature ... everything goes well until you hit someone a bit harder in their wallet.

Unfortunately, at least for me, price isn't only about the cost of CC over perpetual license ... I have never passed on an Adobe software upgrade because I could not afford it or thought the price was too high ... My criteria for an investment in a version upgrade has always been, could the addition of the upgrade generate an increase in income or reduce my overhead by significantly more than the cost of the purchase? It's the same criteria I apply to ANY business purchase I make.

Now Adobe not only wants a bit of a price increase, they also want me to pay in advance for any as yet unseen, unannounced new features that may or may not arrive on any specific timetable ... or further ... if those features will indeed be worthy of my continued investment and actually enhance my bottom line after their inclusion ... Adobe will profit exactly to the degree they wish, no matter what they offer in return ... I, however, may not ... It's more akin to buying a pig in a poke, rather than a thoughtful purchase based upon the known merits of a new product version as we had the opportunity in the past to see proof of product before the investment was made ... It's a bit like a trip to a casino, they will profit if I play, I on the other hand am left to the whims of Lady Luck as to whether I will benefit from my participation. I try to avoid gambling with my livelihood as much as possible.

Most importantly, with the CC model my license of use has an expiration date that can't be altered in any fashion and I no longer have the discretion as to whether I may want to pass on a version if I feel it unworthy of contributing my earnings to purchase a license for it's use. There is no longer a choice ... it is either all or nothing.

There is much more to consider here than just the increase in sticker price and common price fluctuations in the current economy.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Rhossydd on June 27, 2013, 02:08:51 AM
I haven't purchased a boxed edition of Adobe software since they started offering download versions circa CS3 ...
Your loss.
The boxed upgrades from Amazon used to be cheaper than buying a download from Adobe. Not by much, but enough to buy a few beers.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Steve House on June 27, 2013, 05:39:27 AM
...

Most importantly, with the CC model my license of use has an expiration date that can't be altered in any fashion and I no longer have the discretion as to whether I may want to pass on a version if I feel it unworthy of contributing my earnings to purchase a license for it's use. There is no longer a choice ... it is either all or nothing.

There is much more to consider here than just the increase in sticker price and common price fluctuations in the current economy.
There is nothing in the CC model that compels you to upgrade as new versions/features are released.  They will be offered to you as they become available at no additional cost over the ongoing subscription fee but you don't need to accept the offer.  If you feel a new feature is not something you want, you can simply choose not to install the update.  It's really no different from the perpetual license in that regard.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 27, 2013, 06:16:52 AM
Nothing compels you to upgrade, but you are compelled to pay.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 27, 2013, 06:46:52 AM
And if it's true, then what's all the fuss about?   The increase in the cost of food has been more significant.
It seems no one is going on and on about the cost of gear, but a little increase in the cost of software and the whole sky is falling in.

Really ? I hadn't noticed that food had increased by the same percentage magnitude as Adobe software.

And as far as the cost of gear goes, I was under the distinct impression that it was going down not up. First there is the D800 which set a new benchmark, Fuji initiating, depending on how you calculate it, a > 20% price reduction, new standards in price/performance products from most of the manufacturers (and software vendors).. etc etc

And all this in a period when gold has declined from $1900 to $1200 in a few months.
A little increase in the cost of software .. ? You may care to review your elementary maths primer - and you claim to be a structural engineer ?






Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 27, 2013, 08:33:42 AM
There is nothing in the CC model that compels you to upgrade as new versions/features are released.  They will be offered to you as they become available at no additional cost over the ongoing subscription fee but you don't need to accept the offer.  If you feel a new feature is not something you want, you can simply choose not to install the update.  It's really no different from the perpetual license in that regard.

Other than I am required to pay for any improvements and new features whether they are useful to me or not ... that was not the case with a perpetual license. I consider that a very unique and substantial difference.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 27, 2013, 08:56:41 AM
Your loss.
The boxed upgrades from Amazon used to be cheaper than buying a download from Adobe. Not by much, but enough to buy a few beers.

I've never paid full price for an Adobe direct download ... they honor discounts offered by NAPP membership.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 27, 2013, 11:34:47 AM
Really ? I hadn't noticed that food had increased by the same percentage magnitude as Adobe software.

And as far as the cost of gear goes, I was under the distinct impression that it was going down not up. First there is the D800 which set a new benchmark, Fuji initiating, depending on how you calculate it, a > 20% price reduction, new standards in price/performance products from most of the manufacturers (and software vendors).. etc etc

And all this in a period when gold has declined from $1900 to $1200 in a few months.
A little increase in the cost of software .. ? You may care to review your elementary maths primer - and you claim to be a structural engineer ?

Have you noticed the price increases in the new lens from Canon? At least a 50% increase from previous version...if not more. And here we are talking about an outlay of possibly thousands of dollars from your pocket, not some $20 per month which for many is much more managable.

Cost of gas up 40% last 2 months.
Cost of basket of food up 25% last 4 months

And these costs add up to not $20 / month, but hundreds of dollars per month. Why is not everyone upset over those real pocket book costs, rather than something small like $20/month?





Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 27, 2013, 12:04:13 PM
Before implying others shouldn't complain, maybe try figuring out how to quote and insert your own comments in a way that makes it easier to work out what you're saying?

As for  your argument, people do respomd to other price rises. Gas goes up, people drive less. Food goes up, you eat less. So what was your point?

Just as the Adobe-hate mob are tedious, it's so tiresome that people want to deny others the right to complain.....
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 27, 2013, 12:19:33 PM

And these costs add up to not $20 / month, but hundreds of dollars per month. Why is not everyone upset over those real pocket book costs, rather than something small like $20/month?


At what point did the amount of an expenditure become the singular criteria for determining if an expenditure is worthy of investment?

If I purchased every product that I could "afford" ... I'd have little left over for anything else ... We may only be discussing $20 per month, but that expenditure is not imaginary and it must meet the needs, desires and expectation of the person investing the currency. Whether it be considered a trivial amount or not.

"If you take care of the pennies, the dollars (or pounds) will take care of themselves" ...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Steve House on June 27, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
Other than I am required to pay for any improvements and new features whether they are useful to me or not ... that was not the case with a perpetual license. I consider that a very unique and substantial difference.
That's true, and having to prepay for upgrades that one might or might not want to use in order to continue to use the software sans upgrades is certainly a valid objection against the subscription model. Just saying that our discussions should be based on fact rather than myth and it is a myth to say you're compelled to upgrade.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: AFairley on June 27, 2013, 12:38:37 PM
Any of us who actually engage with the folks at Adobe understand that point. It goes beyond just the complexities of the code base, although that is huge. The logistics involved in manufacturing a complete set of disks for each product and each version of the suite, the package design, manufacture and shipping for each country, customer eduction and all the other stuff that goes with a major release are immense. The human cost of forcing 50 or more highly creative engineering teams to all meet the same arbitrary deadline every x months is also immense. Like you, I've talked to a lot of these folks, and I've seen the demoralizing effect of having to defer new features because they didn't fit into the strait jacket of a fixed release cycle.

My prediction is that we'll now see a lot more innovation and better-quality code as stress levels go down and the different teams can get back to developing on their individual schedules, as they did before the Creative Suite came along. There are already indications of that. As for the complaints about it all being too expensive, I don't agree. In the realm of industrial-grade tools for the creative field, Adobe has always been the least expensive manufacturer out there -- one seat of Maya costs about the same as six seats of a CS6 design suite. Speedgrade was a hugely expensive product before Adobe acquired them and bundled it with Production Premium. I've never understood how they kept their end-user prices so low, so I'm not disposed to complain.

I don't really get this argument.  There are a slew of (admittedly much smaller than CS) apps that you buy and you get periodic feature upgrades until the next "major" release, at which point you have to shell out for the product.  Since the CC software has to be downloaded and installed to your computer anyway, I don't see why the CC scheme could not be offered on a perpetural license basis.  Every X months would consitute a "new" version.  All that takes is inserting some kind of identifier in the code. 
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 27, 2013, 12:40:19 PM
is certainly a valid objection against the subscription model.
objection is not against the subscription model but against the subscription only model...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Isaac on June 27, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
Other than I am required to pay for any improvements and new features whether they are useful to me or not ...

I doubt it will make you feel any happier to think about it this way but you are required to pay for the opportunity to use whatever features are provided: be they ancient, new, unimproved, improved.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Vladimirovich on June 27, 2013, 12:42:44 PM
I don't really get this argument.  There are a slew of (admittedly much smaller than CS) apps that you buy and you get periodic feature upgrades until the next "major" release, at which point you have to shell out for the product.  Since the CC software has to be downloaded and installed to your computer anyway, I don't see why the CC scheme could not be offered on a perpetural license basis.  Every X months would consitute a "new" version.  All that takes is inserting some kind of identifier in the code. 

M$ offers new features for their products with perpetual license w/o any issues... there is no need to block anything in code and M$ example clearly shows that accounting is not a problem either (as well as Adobe's own LR for example).
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: ButchM on June 27, 2013, 12:56:30 PM
That's true, and having to prepay for upgrades that one might or might not want to use in order to continue to use the software sans upgrades is certainly a valid objection against the subscription model. Just saying that our discussions should be based on fact rather than myth and it is a myth to say you're compelled to upgrade.

Where did I state such a myth? I mentioned that I was compelled to pay for such upgrades, no matter if I desired or was inclined to use those upgrades ... I never stated that I was compelled to install the upgrades. It seems the myth is of your own creation.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Glenn NK on June 27, 2013, 06:08:25 PM
Really ? I hadn't noticed that food had increased by the same percentage magnitude as Adobe software.

And as far as the cost of gear goes, I was under the distinct impression that it was going down not up. First there is the D800 which set a new benchmark, Fuji initiating, depending on how you calculate it, a > 20% price reduction, new standards in price/performance products from most of the manufacturers (and software vendors).. etc etc

And all this in a period when gold has declined from $1900 to $1200 in a few months.


Show me a list of your gear and the costs, and show me what you will pay for CS/CC.

Fifteen years ago, I would have had to have a wet darkroom - CS is a bargain.

Don't sell your gold at $1200, you will regret it.

I removed the insulting remark.

Life changes every day - get accustomed to this fact.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Alan Gilbertson on June 27, 2013, 08:27:03 PM
Since someone brought the subject up, a Photoshop 1.1 license was $1,000 (I'd guess that's around $2,000 in today's dollars). Photoshop 7, iirc, was $699 in 2003 or thereabouts. CS through CS6 stayed doggedly at $699, with upgrade prices that were so low I several times wondered how they could afford them, even as I jumped to take shameless advantage. Between 2000 and 2012, the purchasing power of the dollar declined to the extent that $699 in 2012 was the equivalent of anywhere between $443 and $524 in 2000, depending on what you base the calculation on (source: Measuring Worth (http://www.measuringworth.com) online calculator). The overall consumer price index in the US went up by almost exactly 25% from 2003 to 2012, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. So the price of Photoshop in real terms has been been declining steadily for years.

File compatibility and accessibility are sensible concerns, but I can't bear any resentment as regards the price. It's worth taking a look at Adobe's FY2012 10-K (http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/investor-relations/PDFs/ADBE_10K_FY12_FINAL_CERTIFIED.pdf), in particular the sections that cover competition (pp. 28-33) and risk factors (pp. 38-48) for some insight into the factors that the top execs have their eye on.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 28, 2013, 01:12:33 AM
Nope, because Yaredna points not based on facts but speculation...he/she/it doesn't understand the implications of a dual licensing scheme–do you? If you did, you wouldn't ask the question.

As an fyi, my background is in medical image processing. I wrote 3D processing software (CT/MR/Angio) that was usually sold for 25k to 100k$ per unit, depending on the configuration. There is a K in this number. And yes, i do understand the implications of dual licensing: the first dual licensing product i designed was in 1994, for the Italian market. Back them, the healthcare reimburseent system in the Lombardi region, unlike the US, favored a pay-per-click mechanism.

It seems that you learned a lot just by talking with people. Good for you. I, on the other hand, graduated and worked in that field (software/image processing, satellite imaging, medical imaging), and i still don't claim I know, only speculate.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 28, 2013, 01:25:28 AM
On the other hand, yaredna joined May 7th–also with an anonymous screen name and pretty much all of his/her/it's posts have been directed towards the Photoshop CC situation. Seems LuLa has gotten a bunch of new members due to the CC announcements...

Here are two clues:
The first 5 letters or yaredna: my last name
The first 2 letters: initials

And yes, I do have a public life outside of Lula. Google ?

By the way, I only joined to annoy you. Here you have it. Happy now? It is a pattern: when you fail to counter with arguments, you start the character assassination technique. Works well in politics, must work in photography too, right ? Keep attacking me instead of answering my questions or commenting on the issues that i raise.

Let us continue our conversation and try to understand if we can educate Adobe to reverse course. Microsoft just did that, with XBox one. Apple did that when they opened the SDK of the iPhone 3 to third party developers. If we understand the real reason behind Adobe's move, then we can unite and apply pressure.

So far, your comments have been off the mark:
. Stopping piracy
. Complexity of maintaining two separate branches of each application

If the reason is for some key executives of Adobe to spin-off an independent entity, that licenses the software source and commercialize an offering geared toward photographers (Knoll knock-knock), we can help accelerate this with so many possibilities, from financing to committing to purchase or write books etc...

My SPECULATION is that Adobe miscalculated, and leadership is too proud to admit it. They are leaving money on the table!

Now you can also join us in understanding the situation, rather than use your infrequent/frequent contacts with one or two executives at Adobe, and claim that you know the full story.

I tell you: even the Adobe leadership staff is still trying to understand what they really did.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 28, 2013, 01:35:21 AM
So far, your comments have been off the mark:
. Stopping piracy
. Complexity of maintaining two separate branches of each application

Care to point out where I said that CC was intended to stop piracy? Pretty sure I never mentioned piracy...My own feeling is that Adobe's anti-priacy effects have not been effective and I doubt that CC would change that...but hey, you're good at putting words in people's mouths. Care to point out where I said anything about piracy? Come on, I dare ya yaredna...

:~)
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 28, 2013, 01:41:34 AM
objection is not against the subscription model but against the subscription only model...

That's exactly it! Let them offer 16,000 different models, we couldn't care less, but why take away a model that worked for many of us?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 28, 2013, 01:46:26 AM
Here are two clues:
The first 5 letters or yaredna: my last name
The first 2 letters: initials

And yes, I do have a public life outside of Lula. Google ?

Uh huh...so, your name is Nadim Yared? So what...I guess I'm pretty stupid...I don't bother to try to decode screen names. But if that is your name, so what? You didn't join till AFTER CC was announced and I still don't know what your agenda might be in joining LuLa. I kinda doubt you joined just to annoy me...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 28, 2013, 01:53:43 AM
Care to point out where I said that CC was intended to stop piracy? Pretty sure I never mentioned piracy...My own feeling is that Adobe's anti-priacy effects have not been effective and I doubt that CC would change that...but hey, you're good at putting words in people's mouths. Care to point out where I said anything about piracy? Come on, I dare ya yaredna...

:~)

You win!!!

Happy now? are you jumping up and down on your seat in front of your computer ? glad i made your day.

It seems that you are more interested in scoring points and regulating the site (when not busy with character assaassination), rather than offer insite on how we can push Adobe to offer back what it took, when they decided to force everyone to the subscription model.

Oh well... Once upon a time, we thought that you, a photographer, being listened to by Adobe's engineers and execs, were an asset to our community... How wrong were we.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: yaredna on June 28, 2013, 01:56:20 AM
Uh huh...so, your name is Xxx? So what...I guess I'm pretty stupid...I don't bother to try to decode screen names. But if that is your name, so what? You didn't join till AFTER CC was announced and I still don't know what your agenda might be in joining LuLa. I kinda doubt you joined just to annoy me...

I joined when I purchased Michael Reichmann videos, starting in 2005. I only contribute if i have something to add. When i felt that the issue of subscription was not well understood by fellow photographers, I started writing.
Joining Lula <> posting on its discussion site.

Now keep going with the character assassination. This is real fun!
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 28, 2013, 02:01:37 AM
You win!!!

I usually do...still looking for quotes where I said Photoshop CC was intended to serve anti-piracy efforts? Pretty sure you won't find those quotes...some others mentioned that but I'm pretty sure I didn't...

So, we're down to a discussion of the difficulties in doing both subscription and perpetual licenses? Just wanted to narrow the scope a bit. If you understand the issues of revenue recognition and generally accepted accounting practices and the difficulties of trying to maintain two sets of code–one the can get regular feature upgrades and the other that can't, then we can discuss the technical problems Adobe has faced and tried to deal with by cutting perpetual licenses. Care to offer any accounting and/or engineering solutions?
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 28, 2013, 06:58:23 AM
So, we're down to a discussion of the difficulties in doing both subscription and perpetual licenses? Just wanted to narrow the scope a bit. If you understand the issues of revenue recognition and generally accepted accounting practices ..

Jeff,
No need.

I looked into the point that yaredna previously raised, and you took such objection to (without ever actually answering) - whether or not a dual licensing scheme was feasible – and found some interesting parallels.

There are numerous software companies that provide links and trading platforms into most of the major financial markets. These are USA Inc., and LLC's , often publicly quoted (NASDAQ, NYSE etc). Their software is intricate, needs frequent maintenance and is offered with interesting and varying subscription options. As an example:

<<
3-month lease   $297
6-month lease   $497
1-year lease   $797
Lifetime       $1,497
Lifetime PRO   $9,900 (interfaces with Bloomberg and Reuters)

Upgrade Policy
All future software upgrades, both minor and major,  are free. Both new and existing customers will benefit to maximum possible extent by never having to pay for new features or functionality. As technology progresses, so will your requirements and your software has to keep up.
>>

So I put it to you that,

(A) It is absolutely possible to program a dual licensing manager, as evidenced by other USA software companies, and
(B) That it is possible to do so under American accounting laws, notwithstanding the issues of revenue recognition and generally accepted accounting practices … which are common to large and small(er) alike. (fao John Beardy: John, have I assumed incorrectly on this point ?)

The only difference between these companies and Adobe are that the financial group all face competition whereas Adobe has a defacto monopoly. I think it therefore safe to conclude that Adobe COULD, if they so wished, offer a similar pricing plan without any great difficulty.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: chez on June 28, 2013, 07:55:02 AM
I joined when I purchased Michael Reichmann videos, starting in 2005. I only contribute if i have something to add. When i felt that the issue of subscription was not well understood by fellow photographers, I started writing.
Joining Lula <> posting on its discussion site.

Now keep going with the character assassination. This is real fun!

You might be having fun...but others, not so much. Put a lid on it now.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: john beardsworth on June 28, 2013, 08:04:50 AM
(B) That it is possible to do so under American accounting laws, notwithstanding the issues of revenue recognition and generally accepted accounting practices … which are common to large and small(er) alike. (fao John Beardy: John, have I assumed incorrectly on this point ?)
You've slightly misunderstood, and Jeff doesn't say it's not possible but rightly refers to "difficulties". Better to say - possible but not at all easy. I've little doubt revenue recognition would have been one of a number of arguments in the decision-making process and it would have added its weight against continuing the perpetual-plus-subscription route.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 28, 2013, 09:41:04 AM
You've slightly misunderstood, and Jeff doesn't say it's not possible but rightly refers to "difficulties".

John,
Many thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Schewe on June 28, 2013, 01:59:22 PM
So I put it to you that,

(A) It is absolutely possible to program a dual licensing manager, as evidenced by other USA software companies, and
(B) That it is possible to do so under American accounting laws, notwithstanding the issues of revenue recognition and generally accepted accounting practices … which are common to large and small(er) alike. (fao John Beardy: John, have I assumed incorrectly on this point ?)

The only difference between these companies and Adobe are that the financial group all face competition whereas Adobe has a defacto monopoly. I think it therefore safe to conclude that Adobe COULD, if they so wished, offer a similar pricing plan without any great difficulty.

Well, Photoshop 1.0 shipped in Feb, 1990...when Adobe started selling Photoshop, there was no internet, they made floppies, printed a manual and shipped physical boxes. Over the years, Adobe added additional products (Illustrator 88 actually shipped in 1987 I think). I'm pretty sure the manner of accounting has evolved over the years–particularly when Adobe introduced the Creative Suite (Photoshop 8) in 2003. But as far as I know, the manner of accounting has prolly remained pretty consistent until Adobe started doing subscription licenses where they could change their accounting of revenue recognition...which basically meant there was two different accounting methods...

I never said Adobe COULDN'T change their accounting...I said that under their current policies, perceptual licenses could not get incremental new features added but subscription licenses can and have.

I'll be the first to admit I have no idea how hard it would be to change their accounting of revenue recognition for perceptual licenses. But, I "think" it would be a difficult proposition...
Title: Re: Adobe Photoshop CC Pirated in One Day?!
Post by: Manoli on June 28, 2013, 06:36:41 PM
Jeff, appreciate the response.