Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: superqaz on June 14, 2013, 01:44:27 am
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just joined and was very unhappy and a bit pissed off to have to spend half an hour phoning round to get the square root of 16. [a security question] I'd like to ask what exactly is going on as ive Never seen such a weird security procedure to prevent spam etc
are the other four questions necessary too?. ive seen sites with perfectly effective and simple solutions to this problem. i suspect that the person who has put all this in place is having a bit fun with the very people who he relies on to make an active forum or he simply has not enough understanding of the security issue and how to deal with it
. i haven't looked yet but i suspect that because of this nonsense the forum will not be under used, which is a shame because it could be very useful ???
would like to hear what people think [before this gets deleted]
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Are you smarter than a fifth grader? Then no problem ;)
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Must be a new thing since I joined - but did you really need to phone round to get the square root of 16? Your post seems to indicate a degree of literacy and I would not have thought it too technical a question.
Jim
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This thread won't be deleted.
There is no issue here (with the security questions, that is).
Tony Jay
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These government guys are everywhere!
;-)
Rob C
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There is no issue here (with the security questions, that is).
Only if the answer isn't posted here! ;)
Cheers,
Bart
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Maybe its a good thing they don't ask how to calculate an f-stop from focal length and front element diameter!! :D
Tony Jay
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I rather applaud questions like that, if the responder has that little basic education and cannot even do a quick google search which will give the answer in seconds, perhaps LL is better off without them?
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Perhaps that highly technical question should be replaced with this one:
Q: What's the difference between a duck?
A: One of its feet are both the same.
::)
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Wrong answer!
Here is the right one: "It swims better than flies".
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A lot better solution than "captchas" if you ask me. (but you didn't)
A better question would be "What gives the most depth of field? A 20mm Samyang lens on a micro four thirds Panasonic camera focused at 2.6 meters shooting an in-studio black and white portrait with multiple flash or an 85mm Simplicon lens on a pre-war Leica rangefinder focused at 8.2 meters shooting an available light landscape in Eastern Germany? Of course this assumes that both lenses are used at f8.
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A lot better solution than "captchas" if you ask me. (but you didn't)
A better question would be "What gives the most depth of field? A 20mm Samyang lens on a micro four thirds Panasonic camera focused at 2.6 meters shooting an in-studio black and white portrait with multiple flash or an 85mm Simplicon lens on a pre-war Leica rangefinder focused at 8.2 meters shooting an available light landscape in Eastern Germany? Of course this assumes that both lenses are used at f8.
Fiirst, Peter, you'd have to know if it was an East German Leica. Only then could you apply the maths with any hope of finding the right temperature... then. of course, there's the little problem of converting from Centigrade to Fahrenheit and understanding the impossibiloty of doing it the other way around.
Best sticking with the original shibboleth.
Rob C
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No offense, but the square root of 16 is something one learns at a very young age and seems a perfectly appropriate question to distinguish a real person from some automated system. If you forgot then you can figure it out in a second or two. And if you can't figure it out, Google provides the answer in a New York second. It's sort of like having to "phone around" to find out 1 + 1.
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In my highly scientific test, both Bing and Google were able to provide virtually instant answers to both "square root of 16" and "1+1."
In neither does the person inquiring need to have any understanding of the meaning of "square root" or of "+."
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No offense, but the square root of 16 is something one learns at a very young age and seems a perfectly appropriate question to distinguish a real person from some automated system. If you forgot then you can figure it out in a second or two. And if you can't figure it out, Google provides the answer in a New York second. It's sort of like having to "phone around" to find out 1 + 1.
wow, so many sensible suggestions, and some great test questions that could fool any old spam bot, or automated spam software.
surely it would better to use one of these that any simpleton like me could answer. and yes i did have to phone round my simpleton friends, some of whom were also deprived of an education in higher mathematics at a very young age, but never mind, it only took three calls.... one not in, one with no idea and one damn genius.
never occurred to me to ask the Google. and as far as im concerned 1 and 1 make 11, that's far as i go with mathematics :)
but anyway, the question is: why cant a simple yet effective solution be used that accommodates people who are not educated to your standards ....or are we all going to be clones....well?
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wow, so many sensible suggestions, and some great test questions that could fool any old spam bot, or automated spam software.
surely it would better to use one of these that any simpleton like me could answer. and yes i did have to phone round my simpleton friends, some of whom were also deprived of an education in higher mathematics at a very young age, but never mind, it only took three calls.... one not in, one with no idea and one damn genius.
never occurred to me to ask the Google. and as far as im concerned 1 and 1 make 11, that's far as i go with mathematics :)
but anyway, the question is: why cant a simple yet effective solution be used that accommodates people who are not educated to your standards ....or are we all going to be clones....well?
And they do, as long as you are a Roman.
;-)
Rob C
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indeed, Rob
and everyone these days knows what its like using the interweb ...u just want it to be quick like that New York second, that means that answers to security questions are already in your head and not on the next page like this forum inventors last name [that was another answer u had to look for.] I just don't think he gets it even if i am out on a limb here, or perhaps I'm completely wrong and I need to go to the pub till this is all sorted
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;D ;D ;D
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I didn't ask Google, I just typed "If I can't work out the square root of 16, I'm going to nuke Texas", and some bloke from the NSA phoned me with the answer. How he knew I will never understand. Oh wait ...
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I didn't ask Google, I just typed "If I can't work out the square root of 16, I'm going to nuke Texas", and some bloke from the NSA phoned me with the answer. How he knew I will never understand. Oh wait ...
;D
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I didn't ask Google, I just typed "If I can't work out the square root of 16, I'm going to nuke Texas", and some bloke from the NSA phoned me with the answer. How he knew I will never understand. Oh wait ...
Exactly! That was Cooter.
;-)
Rob C
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I'll use my first post to say:
1) Didn't actually know he square root of 16.. but I surround myself with smart folks.
2) How would I know the guys last name.. I can't even get on the site.
3) Messed up with character between luminous and landscape (used & which was wrong)
4) Then password went out- not long enough!
5) I thanked god that I wasn't asked to define "Circle of Confusion"
;D
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good to hear someone else with the courage to admit he didnt know the square root of 16...i suspect theres a lot more of us out there just waiting to come out of the closet ;D
and i challenge the owner of the forum/site to answer my question [somewhere above] about why he's made it so difficult to register.......of maybe he's still working on the next set of ridiculous security questions and a convincing explanation as to why he cant get more people to register
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I can't believe that in this generation a western educational system can fail its pupils to that extent.
Were all you kids on pot when you were sitting at your desks? Not on your potties, on weed.
Rob C
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good to hear someone else with the courage to admit he didnt know the square root of 16...i suspect theres a lot more of us out there just waiting to come out of the closet ;D
and i challenge the owner of the forum/site to answer my question [somewhere above] about why he's made it so difficult to register.......of maybe he's still working on the next set of ridiculous security questions and a convincing explanation as to why he cant get more people to register
1. No, it's not good: it's terrifying.
2. So you subscribe to quantity over quality?
Rob C
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I can't believe that in this generation a western educational system can fail its pupils to that extent.
Were all you kids on pot when you were sitting at your desks? Not on your potties, on weed.
Rob C
well Rob
its more about this which i wrote earlier:
"and everyone these days knows what its like using the interweb ...u just want it to be quick like that New York second, that means that answers to security questions are already in your head and not on the next page like this forum inventors last name [that was another answer u had to look for.] I just don't think he gets it"
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I can't believe that in this generation a western educational system can fail its pupils to that extent.
Were all you kids on pot when you were sitting at your desks? Not on your potties, on weed.
Rob C
maybe we dont all come from a western educational system....ever considered that Rob
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I have to agree with Rob here.
Tony Jay
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I have to agree with Rob here.
Tony Jay
So do I. My first thought when this thread started was that it was a joke. I find even the notion that it was a serious complaint profoundly depressing.
Jeremy
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maybe we dont all come from a western educational system....ever considered that Rob
Western, Eastern, Northern, Southern: why on earth should it make any difference? If you leave school without knowing what a square root is, you have been failed by it.
Jeremy
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I'd pretty much bet that any 3rd grader (or younger) from country with an "Eastern" education system would be able to join the forum if simply knowing the square root of 16 was the biggest challenge.
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My first thought when this thread started was that it was a joke. I find even the notion that it was a serious complaint profoundly depressing.
+1
I guess anyone who finds that test so hard they need to 'phone a friend' is going to find this forum tough going.
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Western, Eastern, Northern, Southern: why on earth should it make any difference? If you leave school without knowing what a square root is, you have been failed by it.
+1
I thought the original post was a joke! Should anyone take it seriously?
John
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+1
I guess anyone who finds that test so hard they need to 'phone a friend' is going to find this forum tough going.
Then again, when we agree something must be wrong!
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I somehow think the poster isn't going to being staying here long after the "kicking" he has received? There are still some "heavyweights" he hasn't encountered that will rough him up even worse if they spot any "weaknesses" in what he posts. ;D
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I somehow think the poster isn't going to being staying here long ...
Oh, no!
On the other hand, I am sure he would move to greener pastures. For example, Norman Koren's green paragraphs (http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html) ;)
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... 2) How would I know the guys last name.. I can't even get on the site...
You do not need to be registered to visit and explore the site. You do not even have to be registered to visit and read the forum; you just would not be able to post in forums.
If someone doesn't know anything about the site, why the urge to register?
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Don't you just wish that the evil people behind the registration process forget about the stupid math and ask a question that is actually related to photography?
For instance: if you want your light (e.g., flash) to be 16 times stronger, how much closer to the object you would have to move it?
See? Simple and photography-related. No need to know the square root of 16.
Oh, wait...
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Don't you just wish that the evil people behind the registration process forget about the stupid math and ask a question that is actually related to photography?
For instance: if you want your light (e.g., flash) to be 16 times stronger, how much closer to the object you would have to move it?
See? Simple and photography-related. No need to know the square root of 16.
Oh, wait...
You should lecture in a photo-school! You have the knack of making it look easy.
I never thought of using an exposure meter as a handy maths calculator - hmmm... Must take it to the supermarket next time.
;-)
Rob C
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I think the evil people behind the registration process should dumb it down a little and just ask for the square root of 9.
And if that encourages too many spammers, they can always make it really tough, say, with the square root of 25 or even 36. ::)
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I somehow think the poster isn't going to being staying here long after the "kicking" he has received? There are still some "heavyweights" he hasn't encountered that will rough him up even worse if they spot any "weaknesses" in what he posts. ;D
He has thus far submitted eight posts in the three days since he joined: six on this thread and two looking for a free guide to CaptureOne. It may be that in time he'll post photos which will show him to be a first-rate artist; that he will prove to be a fine and perceptive critic; that he will have a good deal to contribute to business discussions; or that he'll provide deep insights into the more technical aspects of digital photography (the odds on the last are perhaps a little long). At present, though, he's like an ill-mannered party guest whose only contribution to the festivities has been to complain about the driveway he had to negotiate in order to reach the house.
Jeremy
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Not being a mathematical genius myself I do have some sympathy with the the OP, though I did learn about square roots when quite young. However in the interests of fairness I just went and asked my wife Nicky if she knew the square root of 16. Now Nicky is not great in the maths department either, and also still has problems both in switching on the computer and remembering which icon to click to open Lightroom ( I am no joking either), even though she is an accomplished photographer.
But to the question I asked, the answer of "four" came back without a moments hesitation. So to Supergaz I have to say you really are in a very small minority.
Jim
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I'd be the first to say my school system (NYC Board of Education) failed me, and my math skills are substandard.
But- like many others - I was passed along and managed to get a diploma.. and I thought the math question's answer was "4" but I didn't have that warm fuzzy feeling that I was right. So.. I asked the more math-equipped co-workers. Symbiotic relationship- they answer my math questions and I often help them with a multitude of other things. I will say that I (after the Army) went back to school and graduated with a "gentlemanly" cumulative index of 3.3 out of 4.0, but I had to *pay* for the correct schooling.
Anyway.. I'm here.
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Oh, no!
On the other hand, I am sure he would move to greener pastures. For example, Norman Koren's green paragraphs (http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html) ;)
ACK! My head was gonna explode like in the movie "Scanners"
http://youtu.be/HY-03vYYAjA
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A security question about Ken Rockwell could proof very useful… just say'n
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that's nothing-
back when I joined, I had sat and read through hundreds and hundreds of posts concerning how I might approach printing from the standpoint of a giddy schoolkid-
I canvassed the forum's leadership to let me join,
I imagined there was a certain level one might be aware of and copacetic with-
like you know, when there is somethng you just wish you could see, you think you're ready, you prepare and imagine, then you see - it is no different than not seeing,
just like attitude,
bad is enough like good to confuse the two,
or manners,
if you have them or if you don't
who cares?
putz
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We were born with a wide range of abilities, endured a wide range of upbringings, and had access to a variety of educational opportunities. Photographic and otherwise.
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BTW, what is a square root? :-[
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BTW, what is a square root? :-[
What you get if you let a dandelion grow between paving slabs.
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BTW, what is a square root? :-[
Since you asked; The square root of a number is the root number which, when multiplied by itself, produces the squared number:
and in a bit more detail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root) (including the answer to the question that posed such a challenge to the OP).
Cheers,
Bart
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A square root is the opposite from a round root!
While round roots can be found in nature and supermarkets, square roots only exist as a theoretical construct in mathematics.
Pretty much like negative numbers that also can never be observed in real life. :D
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A square root is the opposite from a round root!
While round roots can be found in nature and supermarkets, square roots only exist as a theoretical construct in mathematics.
Pretty much like negative numbers that also can never be observed in real life. :D
Oh yes they can: they are simply disguised as two negatives. As with so much in life, you only need to know where to look.
Rob C
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... (including the answer to the question that posed such a challenge to the OP).
Oh, no, Bart!
You just let millions of barbarians through the gate! ;)
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He could of been the most inspiring photographer this site has seen. Maybe he is idiot savant who can recite from memory the great works of literature. I once heard that either Watson or Crick, the founders of the molecular structure of DNA, had trouble getting the base pairs right when interviewed. Or maybe we have taken out of context what he was asking. He may of been a mathematician that was a professor at Stanford who was trying to ask: Why has security resorted to asking random questions. Maybe Michael should hand out a standardized test for people to pass before visiting this site.That way we can all live comfortably in our gated community.
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He could of been the most inspiring photographer this site has seen. Maybe he is idiot savant who can recite from memory the great works of literature. I once heard that either Watson or Crick, the founders of the molecular structure of DNA, had trouble getting the base pairs right when interviewed. Or maybe we have taken out of context what he was asking. He may of been a mathematician that was a professor at Stanford who was trying to ask: Why has security resorted to asking random questions. Maybe Michael should hand out a standardized test for people to pass before visiting this site.That way we can all live comfortably in our gated community.
Maybe, maybe. It wasn't the fact that he was questioning why the site forum needed to ask the random questions, it was making such a big deal out of the particular question involved. I suppose the administrator tried to think of some pretty simple questions that anyone in any country might understand and be able to answer. Could have asked what the capital city of the USA is called - but you can bet a lot of people around the world would answer New York. How simple does it have to be? After all, we are by the very act of getting involved in a technical subject like photography and wishing to post on a forum, showing that we have some small level of intellect. Or is it just me? ;D (small being the key word)
Have the questions seriously put off anyone from joining?
Jim
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... Could have asked what the capital city of the USA is called - but you can bet a lot of people around the world would answer New York...
Ha! I think you got that one reversed. Most people around the world have knowledge of world geography about an order of magnitude better than most people "around the good, old USA." This, of course, excludes members of this esteemed forum (or so I hope). An astonishing percent of Americans can't even show on the map of the world where USA is, according to National Geographic surveys.
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... in a bit more detail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root) ...
Bart, thanks for the link. I never would have thought to look up "square root". Because I thought I knew all there is to know about square roots, up to now I've missed this delightful fact: "Square roots of positive whole numbers that are not perfect squares are always irrational numbers". My mind is reeling trying to figure out why that is so. And, yes, I read the proof, but somehow I'm having a hard time getting it from my head to my gut.
Jim
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Oh, no, Bart!
You just let millions of barbarians through the gate! ;)
Nah, I just saved the planet a bit of carbon footprint by people not having to waste battery power on all those calculators ...
Cheers,
Bart
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All I can say is that I'm glad bots like me signed up before the security got beefed up. :D (The more sensitive will have noticed that all my posts contain subliminal advertising messages.)
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it seems we are missing some thing: why should there be a bunch of silly security questions in the first place, other forums and sites that ive seen have much simpler solution's which seem to be sufficient, and if we do need security questions why cant they be simple for real people but too hard for bots.? will i ever see an answer to this question, probably not, cause there isn't a good one....
good example is that u have to read an extra page or two just to find the answer to one particular question...the site/forum owners name....perhaps hes very important and we should already know this
but really, don't worry, im only here so certain folks can accuse me of being "ill mannered on the driveway" and take aggressive swipes at me for not living up to their mathematical prowess.
call me stupid but how many people need to know about square roots these days
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if we do need security questions why cant they be simple for real people
A lot of people here think the questions are pretty simple already.
good example is that u have to read an extra page or two just to find the answer to one particular question...the site/forum owners name....perhaps hes very important and we should already know this
As this information is on page one of the site, how hard is it ?
call me stupid but how many people need to know about square roots these days
When you read through the forums here you're going to discover that there is a lot of highly technical discussion. If understanding about square root functions is too hard for you, this isn't a place you'll be able to contribute very much to, or maybe even learn much from.
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call me stupid but how many people need to know about square roots these days
Anyone who wants to understand apertures and their relationship to exposure.
Jeremy
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Anyone who wants to understand apertures and their relationship to exposure.
Jeremy
And thus anyone who wants to understand how the camera works.
Eric M.
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...call me stupid but how many people need to know about square roots these days
Forget about photography, facility with mathematical principles is becoming more important every day in the wider world.
Tony Jay
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Forget about photography, facility with mathematical principles is becoming more important every day in the wider world.
Wrong, ignorance rulez ... ;)
Cheers,
Bart
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Forget about photography, facility with mathematical principles is becoming more important every day in the wider world.
Is it really? Isn't everything auto nowadays? That said, if such a simple question is a genuine problem, are you really going to learn much from this forum or offer much of value to others here?
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Both Bart and John do make a point with a degree of truth.
From a photographic perspective of course one can leave the camera on auto everything but good luck getting worthwhile images.
In many other endevours like driving, automatics may be very usable in general situations, however, in the real world our jobs revolve around problem solving and the reason there is a problem is the that 'automatic' solution has not worked.
Much, perhaps not all though, of the problem solving needs a knowledge of mathematics.
From an educators perspective almost every nation in the world is trying as hard as they can to make mathematics and scientific disciples a priority in primary and secondary education in order to facilitate tertiary education that needs that kind of knowledge and understanding.
None of my tertiary education (biological sciences and medicine) directly prepared me for rigors of the mathematics, physics, and electronics required for photography but I have had no issues understanding the minutiae when required.
BTW the boys that ploughed the airliner short of the runway the other day flying arguably the most technologically advanced airliner in the world today found out that 'auto' everything didn't work for them either.
Tony Jay
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On another website I visited recently there was a security question that asked: "2+2=?"
I went away to do something else before proceeding, and had to restart when I get back. This time the question was: "1+1=?"
I guess they figured the first question was too hard.
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Maybe its a good thing they don't ask how to calculate an f-stop from focal length and front element diameter!! :D
Tony Jay
Trick questions should definitely not be allowed :)
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On another website I visited recently there was a security question that asked: "2+2=?"
I went away to do something else before proceeding, and had to restart when I get back. This time the question was: "1+1=?"
I guess they figured the first question was too hard.
The "something else" wouldn't have been research, by any chance? Given that the first question seems to have stumped you, Eric, perhaps they were right. ;)
Jeremy
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The simple answer is because they like to play this little game.
You may have noticed how many "senior" members responded with wisecrack answers - because they were all born 70-years old and intellectual giants; and were never, ever young or foolish! Just ask them. And if you challenge them too hard you will find the "mods" are their pals and they will really work you over.
Basically it is the tyranny of the autonomous keyboard that makes them feel superior...until their wives tell them to "Take out the garbage Herb!!!".....real tough guys.
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The simple answer is because they like to play this little game.
You may have noticed how many "senior" members responded with wisecrack answers - because they were all born 70-years old and intellectual giants; and were never, ever young or foolish! Just ask them. And if you challenge them too hard you will find the "mods" are their pals and they will really work you over.
Basically it is the tyranny of the autonomous keyboard that makes them feel superior...until their wives tell them to "Take out the garbage Herb!!!".....real tough guys.
yeah...know what u mean , ive already been told that i haven't met tough guys yet. wouldn't it be nice to have all the security answers already in ur head instead of having to look for them [even if on the same page] , i swear some site owners make u jump through hoops just to boost their own self importance.
anyway i promised myself that when i got a thinking mans answer to this nonsense i would leave the forum until i had something really good to upset people with. [ha-ha, its amazing how easily some of these suckers take the bait]
bet half of these geniuses don't actually remember how to work out a square root, they were probably all too busy trying to look up the maths teachers skirt [lol]
I'm retiring now
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Are you guys for real?
Michael
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... Basically it is the tyranny of the autonomous keyboard that makes them feel superior..
Well, genius, I am sure the word you were looking for was anonymous, but apparently the autonomous mind of your keyboard made you mistype it, right?
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Are you guys for real?
Michael
Michael, for their sakes I'd hate to think so!
Sadly, my maths teachers didn't wear skirts: they were all grumpy old men -at least about forty! - with a penchant for cracking us across the knuckles with wooden rules as alternative to throwing chalky, wooden dusters at us. There was a lot of wood in the air in those days; so they did teach me something after all, even if not a lot of mathematics.
;-)
Rob C
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Maybe its a good thing they don't ask how to calculate an f-stop from focal length and front element diameter!! :D
Tony Jay
Well, maybe it is because you can't. you need the focal length and entrance pupil diameter.
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Well, maybe it is because you can't. you need the focal length and entrance pupil diameter.
Fair enough - well caught!
Tony Jay
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Are you guys for real?
Michael
I confess: I am but a figment of my own imagination.
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Pretty much like negative numbers that also can never be observed in real life. :D
Why did you not go whole hog and suggest imaginary numbers?
Ciao,
Doug
Got this far and haven't had such a good laugh in quite a while.
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What about the square root of -1?
Regards
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Square roots of negative numbers gave us the spectacular Mandelbrot set*, so there is nothing to be laughed at. Negative numbers also find a lot of use around here, using Centigrade system in the near Arctic.
More and more mathematics is needed in the future, people who think otherwise are freeloaders depending on others doing the right and necessary things in engineering and research benefitting everybody. I am sure there is fairly high level math at work in the background of Google search algorithms, not to mention Lightroom clarity slider. Somebody has to optimize the algorithms in navigators we take for granted. The list is endless.
I was a national math contest finalist in my junior high days, as have been two of my sons out of three, who are now successfully studying engineering. It seems that the gap between the people who understand, at least in principle, how things work and how the modern society works as a result, and those who just could't care less is widening. That is not good.
*) I wrote a simple program in -85 or so which drew a B&W picture of the set on a high resolution Hercules graphics screen, a whooping 720×348 pixels. With 100 iterations per point it took about 8 hours of 8086 processor time.