Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Other Raw Converters => Topic started by: Isaac on June 05, 2013, 06:29:08 pm

Title: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on June 05, 2013, 06:29:08 pm
After a day's use, DxO Optics Pro seems kind-of OK, but it quickly became obvious that I've become accustomed to making a few selective adjustments on more or less each photo.

So what do people use with DxO Optics Pro for those selective adjustments?
(Suggestions other than LR, PS, PSE please.)
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: kirkt on June 06, 2013, 12:42:33 pm
Photoline:

www.pl32.com

kirk
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Sigi on July 13, 2013, 03:00:44 am
I use NIK software
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on August 07, 2013, 08:42:53 pm
What do you mean by selective adjustments?

Are you referring to a Gradient or brush in a selected area, or??...
Or are you referring to placing the cursor on the point of adjustment area in one region to adjust things such as ....
/color/illumination, as well as the dark/shadow/light/highlight (terms from LR modules) ?

I've been considering DxO in my mix of Dev apps.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 07, 2013, 10:26:03 pm
(Suggestions other than LR, PS, PSE please.)

Adobe Bridge runs ACR w/o PS   ;)
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Bryan Conner on August 08, 2013, 01:26:46 am
I use NIK software

+1
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on August 08, 2013, 06:19:38 am
So what do people use with DxO Optics Pro for those selective adjustments?
(Suggestions other than LR, PS, PSE please.)

Hi,

Topaz Labs photoFXlab (http://www.topazlabs.com/photofxlab/) is both a stand-alone application and a PS plugin. It has several useful controls which can be applied on blending layers, and it can use the excellent Topaz Labs plugins on those individual layers. There are some tutorials here (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzLq7NXEc-T54BlGtTjJ2C9h7oU-3C8wj).

Photoline (mentioned in an earlier post) is another very capable program, and it allows to use PS plugins, including those from Topaz Labs.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 08, 2013, 06:09:32 pm
What do you mean by selective adjustments?

Are you referring to a Gradient or brush in a selected area, or??...

Yes, and removing the 100' pine tree that's obscuring the sub-alpine lake, and moving bluebird sky into the top corner of a composite image that I somehow neglected to photograph (I blame it on the altitude), and...


Topaz Labs photoFXlab (http://www.topazlabs.com/photofxlab/) is both a stand-alone application...

Thanks, I actually have the demo installed but still need to install useful modules. Maybe soon, I have a couple of photos with both a near focus and a far focus which I've failed to satisfactorily merge with Enfuse or Hugin, so I'd like to add alpha masks and try again.

Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Vladimirovich on August 09, 2013, 11:02:47 am
and, Isaac, why stop using already purchased PS product with perpetual license ? you replaced ACR/LR w/ other raw converter(s), but you still can get PS/PSE and use it w/o subscription... or you can still run old ACR on .tiff for local corrections even you do not upgrade to "CC" to get new ACRs for new cameras... not supporting Adobe (because of "CC") does not need to go that far
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 09, 2013, 12:10:51 pm
not supporting Adobe (because of "CC") does not need to go that far

You seem to have confused me with BartvanderWolf.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on August 09, 2013, 09:16:56 pm
Basically, you mean a pixel level editor.

Corel Paint is an Alternate to Photoshop
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 10, 2013, 12:28:15 pm
Basically, you mean a pixel level editor.

Is that how you would describe LR? (Removed pine tree and moved bluebird sky.)

Is that how you would describe AfterShot Pro? (Selection + levels to create black masks for alpha channel composite images.)

Just one or two of the capabilities of a pixel level editor would be enough.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 12, 2013, 01:12:21 pm
I'm confused by the apparent overlap between Topaz plugins -- afaict Topaz Clarity, Topaz Adjust, and Topaz Detail all seem much the same?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on September 23, 2013, 09:22:11 pm
Topaz Labs photoFXlab (http://www.topazlabs.com/photofxlab/) is both a stand-alone application and a PS plugin. It has several useful controls which can be applied on blending layers, and it can use the excellent Topaz Labs plugins on those individual layers.

I can see how to apply various effects; and, for example, do selective sharpening using the layer masks; and it was easy enough to composite images with different WB adjustments for different foreground/background lighting etc

Is there a basic clone stamp in photoFXlab?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 24, 2013, 05:03:18 am
I'm confused by the apparent overlap between Topaz plugins -- afaict Topaz Clarity, Topaz Adjust, and Topaz Detail all seem much the same?

Hi,

They target different things, and achieve different effects that cannot be achieved by the other plugins. There is some functionality overlap in the other features like selections/masking.

Here (http://www.topazlabs.com/blog/whats-the-difference-between-clarity-and-detailadjustinfocus/) is a short description of the differences.

Here (http://www.topazlabs.com/blog/what-is-the-best-way-to-incorporate-topaz-into-my-workflow/) is an overview of the most common stage in the workflow where they are used.

They also have lots of webinars (http://www.topazlabs.com/webinars/) and videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/topazlabs?feature=watch) on their YouTube channel about the various plugins, and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7EYMrXhazE) is a recent one about some of the differences between 'Adjust' and 'Detail'.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 24, 2013, 06:06:25 am
Is there a basic clone stamp in photoFXlab?

Hi,

Not a clone stamp as such, but one can duplicate or import layers, Mask them, and move/resize them.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on September 24, 2013, 10:56:36 am
Thanks -- I guess the trick is to figure out how to move a duplicated layer relative to the original.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 24, 2013, 11:06:07 am
Thanks -- I guess the trick is to figure out how to move a duplicated layer relative to the original.

You're welcome. It's not that difficult to move a layer in photoFXlab, just select the layer and use the controls at the top right hand side of the plugin as shown in the attached screenshot.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on September 24, 2013, 01:52:16 pm
Not difficult at all, once you know it's there ;-)

Unfortunately afaict these actions really don't provide the effectiveness of the LR Spot Removal Brush.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 24, 2013, 02:19:08 pm
Not difficult at all, once you know it's there ;-)

Unfortunately afaict these actions really don't provide the effectiveness of the LR Spot Removal Brush.

That's correct, but then nobody claimed that these plugins would, because they are more geared at total image enhancement, not specifically for detailed Retouch like an image pixel oriented editor. For that there are plenty of alternatives. Fortunately, most Raw converters do offer spot removal.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on September 24, 2013, 03:01:45 pm
but then nobody claimed that

I'm not trying to advocate for or against photoFXlab or LR or DxO Optics Pro or ...

I'm just trying to get the best out of some photos, and using that as an opportunity to evaluate software. In doing so, I've stumbled on this example where the combination of DxO Optics Pro and photoFXlab doesn't seem to provide an effective way to obliterate the wine bottle top that's protruding into a photo, or other background distractions.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: dennbel on September 30, 2013, 05:10:34 pm
Saglelight Image Editor. You can manipulate till you go blind 8) http://sagelighteditor.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on September 30, 2013, 07:00:17 pm
I seem to recall trying sagelight a year or two ago, and uninstalling it within a couple of days. Maybe it's improved a lot since then.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on September 30, 2013, 07:11:36 pm
That's correct, but then nobody claimed that these plugins would, because they are more geared at total image enhancement, not specifically for detailed Retouch like an image pixel oriented editor. For that there are plenty of alternatives. Fortunately, most Raw converters do offer spot removal.

So can we say that DxO Pro 8 and photoFXlab isn't enough as a replacement for LR -- I need some other software to get something like the functionality of the LR Spot Removal Brush?

Is the only viable option with DxO Pro 8 and photoFXlab extract the main subject with ReMask and find an entirely different background? (That might actually work with the current image but won't in other cases.)
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: stamper on October 01, 2013, 04:05:25 am
Isaac if you post the image of what you are trying the selections on then the members can see how complex the task is and suggest the "best" solution for you.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on October 01, 2013, 12:33:58 pm
what you are trying the selections on

an effective way to obliterate the wine bottle top that's protruding into a photo, or other background distractions.
Title: but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 05, 2014, 11:20:55 am
but then nobody claimed that these plugins would, because they are more geared at total image enhancement, not specifically for detailed Retouch like an image pixel oriented editor.

A year later and part of the answer for me seems to be use RawTherapee to do both overall and selective image adjustments.

But use ReMask and photoFXlab to select what part of the image the "selective image adjustments" will apply-to after they have been made (as "overall" adjustments) and saved as separate tiff.

As I already make multi image pictures, blending separate adjustment files just doesn't seem difficult.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: robgo2 on August 11, 2014, 02:04:18 pm
Personally, I think that local adjustments are best done at the pixel level on a converted file.  I know that this goes against the grain of all those who are doing them in the raw stage, but in my experience, the results are not as good.  I have been using OnOne's Perfect Photo Suite 8.5 as a standalone image editor, and I find its local adjustment tools to cover a wide range of tasks and to be very powerful.

Rob
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 12, 2014, 02:27:08 am
I know that this goes against the grain of all those who are doing them in the raw stage…

By using the same exposure and contrast and sharpness and … adjustment tools, I get better at using those tools and avoid the need to learn a duplicate set of tools.

If I'm going to dive-in and pull-at-the-curve to up-the-contrast for that part of the image; it's nice to do that with a familiar tool and it's nice not to care what that does to the other parts of the image (because when I get around to selecting what parts will contribute to the final image, they won't be selected).

It's just what I've ended-up doing, I'm not selling anything :-)
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Fine_Art on August 14, 2014, 01:12:06 am
You are aware that Adobe made PS CS2 available as a free license? I bought CS3 years back, tried many advanced functions like photomerge, with limited quality. I have not had it installed in years. I did download the CS2 (with nag screen) for spot removal. I also use it to convert tifs to a format Images plus can open. That is really all I ever use it for. I'm not knocking the product, people do amazing things with it. If all you need is spot healing use the free CS2.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: robgo2 on August 14, 2014, 01:19:13 pm
By using the same exposure and contrast and sharpness and … adjustment tools, I get better at using those tools and avoid the need to learn a duplicate set of tools.

If I'm going to dive-in and pull-at-the-curve to up-the-contrast for that part of the image; it's nice to do that with a familiar tool and it's nice not to care what that does to the other parts of the image (because when I get around to selecting what parts will contribute to the final image, they won't be selected).

It's just what I've ended-up doing, I'm not selling anything :-)

I realize that what you describe is SOP for many photographers, but I am convinced that fine tuning and local adjustments are better done on a converted image than a raw file, if IQ is your highest priority.  As a test, download a free trial version of Perfect Photo Suite 8.5 and familiarize yourself with some of its modules and tools, which may take some time and effort.  You can work with it either as a standalone or a plugin program.  Then use it to edit a converted image that has had basic adjustments only applied in Lightroom or whatever integrated raw image editor you normally use.  Finally, edit the same raw file exclusively in Lightroom and output the file to TIFF.  Now compare the two.  I think you will see the difference.  Also, for those who use Lightroom plugins such as Nik and OnOne, those edits are being done on converted, not raw, files, which only serves to make my point.  I have no problem with the plugin concept, but people should understand what they are doing.  The same can be said of working in Photoshop, but to do it right requires more skill and effort.  (PS purists, I salute you.)

Rob 
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 14, 2014, 01:46:23 pm
…fine tuning and local adjustments are better done on a converted image than a raw file, if IQ is your highest priority.

Why would that be better?
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: tuthill on August 14, 2014, 01:50:08 pm
You are aware that Adobe made PS CS2 available as a free license? I bought CS3 years back, tried many advanced functions like photomerge, with limited quality. I have not had it installed in years. I did download the CS2 (with nag screen) for spot removal. I also use it to convert tifs to a format Images plus can open. That is really all I ever use it for. I'm not knocking the product, people do amazing things with it. If all you need is spot healing use the free CS2.

Actually, Adobe did not make CS2 available as a free license.  What they did was shut down the activation server for CS2 but provided an activation code for legitimate license holders should they need to reinstall in the future.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: robgo2 on August 14, 2014, 02:14:03 pm
Why would that be better?

Greater latitude and range of adjustments, not to mention a huge number of presets (which some people find useful).  I think that you have to try this approach in order to judge for yourself.

Rob
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 14, 2014, 03:50:18 pm
Greater latitude and range of adjustments…

How can working on a converted image provide "greater latitude" when the converted image doesn't have the data that was available in the raw image?

Please give some examples of the greater range of adjustments that Perfect Photo Suite provides, that a raw converter doesn't provide, to help me understand what you're talking about. We're probably thinking about different things.


…a huge number of presets…

Something like DxO Optics Pro also provides presets (and sometimes I'd look through them).
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Fine_Art on August 14, 2014, 04:30:31 pm
Actually, Adobe did not make CS2 available as a free license.  What they did was shut down the activation server for CS2 but provided an activation code for legitimate license holders should they need to reinstall in the future.

That is good to know, I thought it was a marketing plan to get more people using it, who would then upgrade. It seemed widely discussed when it happened. I guess I can dig my old disk out of boxes.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: robgo2 on August 14, 2014, 09:36:56 pm
How can working on a converted image provide "greater latitude" when the converted image doesn't have the data that was available in the raw image?

Please give some examples of the greater range of adjustments that Perfect Photo Suite provides, that a raw converter doesn't provide, to help me understand what you're talking about. We're probably thinking about different things.


Sorry, but I do not want to go through the exercise of posting examples.  Just take my statement for what it is--the well considered opinion of someone who has put a great deal of effort into (and who actually enjoys) testing and learning editing software.  That is why I urge others to do their own testing in order to form their own opinions.  Have fun, and be open-minded.  But ponder this:  Why are the Nik and OnOne plugins for Lightroom and Aperture so popular, if the same results could be obtained in the host programs working entirely in raw format?  The obvious answer is that the results are not the same, and IMO, they are better with the plugins working on converted files.  The same is true of post-conversion editing in Photoshop. (This assumes that one has first performed the basic adjustments necessary for a proper raw conversion.)

Rob
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 15, 2014, 03:08:14 am
Sorry, but I do not want to go through the exercise of posting examples.

I just wanted you to say whether by greater range of adjustments you mean, for example, "Quickly smooth skin and make eyes and teeth sparkle" and "Fix color, contrast, vibrance, and white balance automatically."

If that's what you mean then, at least, I understand what you're talking about.


But ponder this:  Why are the Nik and OnOne plugins for Lightroom and Aperture so popular, if the same results could be obtained in the host programs working entirely in raw format?  The obvious answer is that the results are not the same…

Another obvious answer is that they allow us to achieve a quick effect without understanding - "Hundreds of one-click presets and filters to stylize your images."
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: robgo2 on August 16, 2014, 04:25:42 pm
I just wanted you to say whether by greater range of adjustments you mean, for example, "Quickly smooth skin and make eyes and teeth sparkle" and "Fix color, contrast, vibrance, and white balance automatically."

If that's what you mean then, at least, I understand what you're talking about.


Another obvious answer is that they allow us to achieve a quick effect without understanding - "Hundreds of one-click presets and filters to stylize your images."


The adjustments in Perfect Photo Suite can be either automatic or wholly manual.  The choice is up to the user.  And they are fast and can be applied in layers.

The presets and filters are simple and intuitive tools for performing what might be very complex processes in a program such as Photoshop.  But again, the user decides whether to use presets, and he/she has tremendous control over how the effects are applied. OnOne's Perfect Effects is essentially a very clever and straightforward way of using sophisticated layer masks, and it allows you to do some amazing things with relative ease.  Naturally, you have to learn the tools in order to achieve your artistic vision.

Again, I suggest using a free trial version fairly intensively for 2 to 3 weeks, and draw your own conclusions.  If you like it, fine.  If you don't, fine also, and it has cost you nothing.

Rob   
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Fine_Art on August 16, 2014, 10:47:25 pm
That is good to know, I thought it was a marketing plan to get more people using it, who would then upgrade. It seemed widely discussed when it happened. I guess I can dig my old disk out of boxes.

I uninstalled. Decided to try Gimp and Cinepaint.
Title: Re: DxO Optics Pro -- but what to use for selective adjustments?
Post by: Isaac on August 17, 2014, 11:57:06 am
The presets and filters are simple and intuitive tools for performing what might be very complex processes in a program such as Photoshop. … allows you to do some amazing things with relative ease.

Thanks, seems comparable to the Topaz labs stuff Bart mentioned.

I'm doing some simple things, but I don't want those simple things to be applied across all of the image -- so masking works well for my "artistic vision".


… and it has cost you nothing.

Well, 2 to 3 weeks :-)