Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on June 04, 2013, 11:23:34 am

Title: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on June 04, 2013, 11:23:34 am
Tried out the TSE-24 on my recent trip to Scotland.
I haven't gotten great pictures with it... yet.  I'm still acclimating myself to it.

Couple of early things I noted.

I didn't realize how short the "throw" is from 5 ft to infinity focus.  I screwed up a bunch of times on this one.
When I tried to use the tilt feature to get better depth of focus, I've gotten worse results.

Here is an image I took of our stay at Invergarry Castle in Scotland.  The shift feature is easy to use as you can see here.  All the lines straight up and down.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3668/8944389069_d5c275d1b3_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephen_tl/8944389069/)
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Jim Kasson on June 04, 2013, 11:36:53 am
When I tried to use the tilt feature to get better depth of focus, I've gotten worse results.

If you're just starting out with a tilt/shift lens, the Summerhayes  (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/focusing-ts.shtml)technique is a good place to start.

The key measurement you need to use the Summerhayes method is the perpendicular distance from the lens to the plane that you want in focus. In landscape photography, that plane is usually the ground, and thus all you need to know is how high the camera is. If you’re using the camera at eye height, and you’re of anywhere near average size (male or female – given the accuracy to which you can set a tilt/shift lens tilt angle, it doesn’t make any difference), the angle you want to set your tilt to is one degree for a 24 mm lens, 1 ½ degrees for a 45 mm lens, and 3 degrees for a 90 mm lens.

Jim
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 04, 2013, 11:53:10 am
Tried out the TSE-24 on my recent trip to Scotland.
...

1) I didn't realize how short the "throw" is from 5 ft to infinity focus.  I screwed up a bunch of times on this one.
2) When I tried to use the tilt feature to get better depth of focus, I've gotten worse results.

1) Using Live View "zoomed in" (i.e., at  5x or 10 x magnification) plus a loupe like a  Hoodloupe (http://www.hoodmanusa.com/products.asp?dept=1017) is the best way to very finely establish prime focus, especially with a TS-E lens where the optical  light path is off axis to the groundglass in the viewfinder.

2) The tilt function of a  Tilt/Shift lens basically turns the camera into a miniature front tilt or swing + rise/fall/shift only view camera. Certain principles apply: if you use tilt,  focus the point that the lens (which if you have also used shift is not in the center of the framed composition) is centered on   and then start dialing in the tilt to bring the  top and bottom  of the subject (or the sides  if you are using the tilt function as swing  into focus. You will most likely will then need to  focus a little ways deeper into the scene and stop down  to bring everything into satisfactory focus.  This is how you apply Scheimpflug's principle.

Schiempflug's Principle is a geometric rule that says when a plane through the subject, the plane of the lens, and the film/sensor plane all intersect in a line every point in the chosen subject plane will be in focus at all apertures. By refocusing after you have applied tilt yo uare choosing a different subject plane to focus on than the one you initially focused on. As with all lenses, closing down to a smaller aperture extends the depth of field in front of and behind that subject plane.  Here's an illustration of what is going on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scheimpflug.gif

I only use the tilt function of a TS-E lens when it becomes either absolutely necessary or to create a definite anti-Scheimpflug principle effect.



  
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 04, 2013, 01:10:28 pm
1) Using Live View "zoomed in" (i.e., at  5x or 10 x magnification) plus a loupe like a  Hoodloupe (http://www.hoodmanusa.com/products.asp?dept=1017) is the best way to very finely establish prime focus, especially with a TS-E lens where the optical  light path is off axis to the groundglass in the viewfinder.

Hi Ellis,

Yes, Live view with a hooded loupe is indispensable for accurate tilted focusing, the focus confirmation light/beep works fine for modest tilts.

For viewfinder focusing, despite producing a darker viewfinder on lenses with smaller apertures than f/2.8, I use a more detailed Ec-S (Super Precision Matte) focusing screen in my camera.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on June 05, 2013, 11:49:02 am
Thanks to everyone for pointing me in the right direction on this one.  I'll have to read up on this.
Little bit disappointed that I wasn't able to do the reading and test out the lens before my trip.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 05, 2013, 12:42:19 pm
Another way to extend depth of field, even with large subjects like landscapes and buildings is "focus stacking". There are several programs that can do the processing for you - I use Helicon Focus pro - but the basic idea is the same. Fix your exposure parameters - shutter speed, aperture &  ISO (White Balance too if you are not shootign raw) - to the same settings and focus the camera at different distances moving from close to far. if yo uare usign a manual focus lens like the TS-E series you'll have to do this by guess work but try to move it in small even increments. If using an autofocus lens and have an iPhone, iPad, a Mac running OS X 10.8,  and  soon Android or Windows mobile device handy my favorite way to automate creating the stack is to use the focus stacking function of the CamRanger - http://www.camranger.com
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: sdwilsonsct on June 06, 2013, 09:44:25 am
Another way to extend depth of field, even with large subjects like landscapes and buildings is "focus stacking".

Much cheaper than a T/S lens. Problematic if there's wind.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on June 06, 2013, 11:35:43 am
Much cheaper than a T/S lens. Problematic if there's wind.

I have yet to attempt to focus stacking as a technique.  However I prefer to use tools in the field rather than rely on post processing of multiple images.  Even though tools in the field may be more expensive than software, the real expense would be if I took the shots and found out later that the images don't line up or match up and can't do anything about it because my flight home is the next day.  A single plane ticket across an ocean is the price of a good lens.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 06, 2013, 11:51:24 am
Much cheaper than a T/S lens. Problematic if there's wind.
True but if you can do it with a minimum number of frames - and the camera is not moved by the wind and do some work on masking the layers, it can work. When creating stitched panoramas i also often have the same  problem (trees, flags and water moving due to wind and current; but also  people and vehicles moving) and solve it by editing the layers that make up the composite using masks on each layer. it is tedious but doable.  But admittedly sometimes not even that works.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: sdwilsonsct on June 06, 2013, 11:56:41 am
if you can do it with a minimum number of frames - and the camera is not moved by the wind and do some work on masking the layers, it can work

Good point. I shoot a lot of vegetation, so I gave up on Helicon and am trying a T/S.

Thanks for your clear explanation of focusing technique above.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 06, 2013, 11:58:30 am
I have yet to attempt to focus stacking as a technique.  However I prefer to use tools in the field rather than rely on post processing of multiple images.  Even though tools in the field may be more expensive than software, the real expense would be if I took the shots and found out later that the images don't line up or match up and can't do anything about it because my flight home is the next day.  A single plane ticket across an ocean is the price of a good lens.
I agree aboutit being better to solve a technical problem at the time the photographs are being made, and about the expenses of making a miscalculation, plus time and travel relative to the cost of a good lens or a solid tripod/head combination and cable release.

I'd much rather solve a problem when making the photos but I'm glad to have the "after the fact" tools available as well. While software maybe relatively cheap compared to a good lens or tripod/head combination, there is the cost of the time needed to learn and to apply any processing and post-processing tool.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: CptZar on June 06, 2013, 03:43:30 pm
Right, but honestly, if you take a larger FL than 24mm tilting really gets difficult. Further on, it is not possible to use tilting with large objects close to the  lens, due to the angle of the focus plane. So I do assume it is much easier, with even better results, to use focus stacking.

With focus peeking things change again. But Canon or Nikon don't provide that. Only Sony today. So actually if you are really serious about TS you should use a Sony NEX7 with a metabones speedbooster (to get the angel of view of FF). Then you have an EVF and tilting becomes very easy. However, the NEX7 is a haptical nightmare. So as long as Canon an Nikon do not provide more than a viewfinder from the last century tilting is a PITA with those cameras.

Magical Latern has focus peeking as well, but it doesn't work very good.

Anyway, the time you need to get a sharp image with a 50mm lens and tilting is most probably longer the one need for focus staking. 24mm still works OK though.

It's not about when the problem is solved, it's about how it is solved best. If you go home, and the stone which you put in the very front of your image is only partly sharp, you will wish you did not try to make it all right on location.

But yes, with moving objects tilting is the only way to go.

cheers

Jan
5DMIII
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Glenn NK on June 06, 2013, 07:00:34 pm
For a FLAT surface (not necessarily horizontal, but flat), I use the following process:

1)  frame the image,

2)  focus at infinity (or most distant part of image) using focus ring,

3)  zoom in maximum in live view,

4)  using the TILT knob, adjust the foreground into focus,

5)  repeat steps 2) to 4) as required - I usually repeat only once.

I've often shot wide open (f/3.5) with good results.

I completely gave up on charts etc. soon after I learned the above (two years ago).

Glenn
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 07, 2013, 01:14:30 pm
For a FLAT surface (not necessarily horizontal, but flat), I use the following process:

1)  frame the image,

2)  focus at infinity (or most distant part of image) using focus ring,

3)  zoom in maximum in live view,

4)  using the TILT knob, adjust the foreground into focus,

5)  repeat steps 2) to 4) as required - I usually repeat only once.



I've often shot wide open (f/3.5) with good results.

I completely gave up on charts etc. soon after I learned the above (two years ago).

Glenn

Glenn,

I am surprised, given that the lens is a mount that pivots the lens around its optical axis (that's the line that runs through the center of the lens), that you don't focus in the center of the frame and then dial in the amount of tilt neded to bring the near and far points of that plane into focus.

That is how I use TS-E lenses lenses. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Glenn NK on June 08, 2013, 02:09:49 am
Glenn,

I am surprised, given that the lens is a mount that pivots the lens around its optical axis (that's the line that runs through the center of the lens), that you don't focus in the center of the frame and then dial in the amount of tilt neded to bring the near and far points of that plane into focus.

That is how I use TS-E lenses lenses. Am I missing something?

Ellis:

To be truthful, I don't know, but I do know that some pretty darn good photographers use the method.

Royce Rowland on Naturescapes.net told me about it on a thread a couple of years ago.

Also a good post by Darren K (14 June 2012), which alludes to what you said about focusing in the center of the frame:

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=218217

Glenn
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Ellis Vener on June 08, 2013, 12:12:57 pm
Glenn: Thank you for that input.  As I come from a background of using view cameras (primarily Sinar P & C and Arca-Swiss F line and Canham DLC) which base tilt designs ( The big Sinars use what Sinar rightly calls their system "off axis tilt" but it is a variation of a base tilt design) the "focus on the far then tilt to the near" approach is one I am very familiar with  but as the TS-E lenses are a tilt on the lens axis design  it might work faster  to try focusing in the middle of the frame and then tilting to find the right angle to bring both the near and far points into focus.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Glenn NK on June 08, 2013, 12:38:42 pm
Ellis:

I will probably try your suggestion, but it seem that two or three iterations do the trick with the other method (infinity first).

Glenn
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 08, 2013, 01:37:00 pm
[...] but as the TS-E lenses are a tilt on the lens axis design  it might work faster  to try focusing in the middle of the frame and then tilting to find the right angle to bring both the near and far points into focus.

Hi Ellis,

That depends on the particular mechanical lens design.

When I tilt forward with an TS-E 24mm f/3.5 II, I often need to adjust my initial center-focus towards a shorter focusing distance. So maybe it is easier to focus slightly more to the foreground, then tilt, because it will stay closer to what I already had and I can visually judge how much tilt is required for the distance in the upper part of the image. My TS-E 90mm f/2.8 uses a significantly different pivot point, and comes slightly closer to 1/3rd of the distance as a better starting point.

Initial focusing in the distance with those lenses is clearly a less efficient approach. The lesson for Glenn is to not listen to Guru's too much, but do the test yourself.

BTW, it is easy to find out if front/middle/back-ground focusing is the better starting-point for any given Tilt lens.
Just spend some time iterating between foreground and background tilt & focus adjustments until 'the whole enchilada' is in focus. Now reset the tilt to zero, and see where the focal plane is located in the distance. Voila!

Of course that only keeps the ground plane in focus, which is not wanted if there are high structures in the background. One should get focus at halfway up the distant heights if DOF needs to be optimized, so tilt needs to be reduced a bit (and the initial focus point gets a bit closer to the middle distance setting again). So, focusing a bit shy of the middle range, seems more efficient with these lenses.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Glenn NK on June 08, 2013, 03:01:46 pm
In any event, it seems that the process is still iterative.

Glenn
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 08, 2013, 04:36:26 pm
In any event, it seems that the process is still iterative.

Hi Glenn,

That's correct, if you want to shoot something else than just the ground-plane in focus. Remember that the focal plane moves up and down as well as closer and further away, after dialing in some tilt. So one iteratively searches for the optimal height in the foreground and background as well. Live View (don't forget a loupe) is heaven-sent for that ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Roman Racela on June 12, 2013, 10:03:53 pm
Slim - I had the same experience as you when I first started using the TS-E 24mm f3.5II. Just like Jim Kasson suggested, start using the Summerhayes method and you'll get great images. I started using the Summerhayes technique and have never looked back. :)


If you're just starting out with a tilt/shift lens, the Summerhayes  (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/focusing-ts.shtml)technique is a good place to start.

The key measurement you need to use the Summerhayes method is the perpendicular distance from the lens to the plane that you want in focus. In landscape photography, that plane is usually the ground, and thus all you need to know is how high the camera is. If you’re using the camera at eye height, and you’re of anywhere near average size (male or female – given the accuracy to which you can set a tilt/shift lens tilt angle, it doesn’t make any difference), the angle you want to set your tilt to is one degree for a 24 mm lens, 1 ½ degrees for a 45 mm lens, and 3 degrees for a 90 mm lens.

Jim
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on June 29, 2013, 10:58:49 am
Thanks guys,  the photo I posted under the 10ND or not to ND in the photography photo section I used the method.
I didn't have a loupe, but I used the hood of my 100-400 lens and used live view at 10x to dial in the focus.

I don't know if it was the lens or something else, but I noticed really bad chromatic aberration, vertical and horizontally.

Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Jim Kasson on June 29, 2013, 11:24:30 am
Thanks guys,  the photo I posted under the 10ND or not to ND in the photography photo section I used the method.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the need for any tilt in those pictures. There's no foreground to speak of.

Jim
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 29, 2013, 11:55:28 am
I don't know if it was the lens or something else, but I noticed really bad chromatic aberration, vertical and horizontally.

Must have been your lens, because my TS-E 24mm II is virtually perfect with hardly any CA, as are others that I have seen results from. Are you sure it is CA and not overexposure light spilling to neighboring sensels?

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. Here are some TS-E 24mm f/3.5 II examples:
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/OPF/TSE24_T2_OpticalCenter_Anim.gif) (http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/OPF/TSE24_T2_TopLeft_12mm_Anim.gif) (http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/OPF/TSE24_T2_MidLeft_00mm_Anim.gif)
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on June 29, 2013, 12:27:26 pm
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the need for any tilt in those pictures. There's no foreground to speak of.

Jim

The tilt wasn't much at all.  I tried to shoot wide open as possible and put the bridge and waterfall in focus.  Maybe not too much bang for my buck in this case.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Glenn NK on June 29, 2013, 12:28:12 pm
I don't know if it was the lens or something else, but I noticed really bad chromatic aberration, vertical and horizontally.


Sounds familiar (and surprising for a lens of this calibre).

I tripod tested my first copy against my 24-105 (set at 24 mm); it was a fairly heavy overcast day, and I shot into some bare trees with the sky as BG.

I was a bit shocked to find that the 24-105 had less CA than the 24 TSE - it was exchanged immediately (fortunately I deal only with a local brick and mortar store where by that time I'd spent approximately 10 big ones on gear - they exchanged it no questions asked).

Glenn
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 29, 2013, 02:11:20 pm
I tripod tested my first copy against my 24-105 (set at 24 mm); it was a fairly heavy overcast day, and I shot into some bare trees with the sky as BG.

Hi  Glenn,

Did you save a crop of that?  

I have a test shot posted here (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=77994#post77994) , including a full size horizontal shifted stitch when you click on that image, which only shows a bit of CA beyond the 7mm shift position, which I rarely use because the image quality drops too much across the frame for my taste. I'd rather rotate and stitch such extreme scenarios, which allows to shoot more at the center of the image circle, and those shots are easier to correct for keystoning in a pano stitcher anyway.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: MrSmith on June 29, 2013, 02:33:30 pm
There is C/A at 12 mm shift that's right at the extremities of the lens image circle. I tend to stick to 10mm shift max and only go to 12 if I have to, it's still a very good lens and better than the Nikon I tried on a d800
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: David Eichler on July 13, 2013, 05:50:18 am
Must have been your lens, because my TS-E 24mm II is virtually perfect with hardly any CA, as are others that I have seen results from. Are you sure it is CA and not overexposure light spilling to neighboring sensels?

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. Here are some TS-E 24mm f/3.5 II examples:
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/OPF/TSE24_T2_OpticalCenter_Anim.gif) (http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/OPF/TSE24_T2_TopLeft_12mm_Anim.gif) (http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/OPF/TSE24_T2_MidLeft_00mm_Anim.gif)

The OP did not specify the series II version of this lens. The original version has noticeable CA, whether shifted or not. However, it seems that Lightroom 4 can go a long way toward minimizing this.
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Glenn NK on July 14, 2013, 01:00:17 pm
Hi  Glenn,

Did you save a crop of that?  

I have a test shot posted here (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=77994#post77994) , including a full size horizontal shifted stitch when you click on that image, which only shows a bit of CA beyond the 7mm shift position, which I rarely use because the image quality drops too much across the frame for my taste. I'd rather rotate and stitch such extreme scenarios, which allows to shoot more at the center of the image circle, and those shots are easier to correct for keystoning in a pano stitcher anyway.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart:

Sorry, but I just saw your post.

No, I didn't save the images from the first TSE24, but do recall that the 24-105 image (same tripod location and same settings) had noticeably less CA.

Glenn
Title: Re: TSE-24 a few thoughts.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 14, 2013, 01:14:42 pm
Bart:

Sorry, but I just saw your post.

No, I didn't save the images from the first TSE24, but do recall that the 24-105 image (same tripod location and same settings) had noticeably less CA.

Hi Glenn,

Was that a model I TS-E 24mm or the more recent model II that you tested? My examples are with the model II.

Cheers,
Bart