Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Schewe on May 21, 2013, 01:39:08 am

Title: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 21, 2013, 01:39:08 am
In case you weren't there (I wasn't :~) there are some briefing slides Adobe made available (http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/investor-relations/PDFs/AdobeMAXFABriefingSlides6May2013.pdf) (as a PDF) in case you are interested...I'll make no comment other than to mention from Adobe's numbers, CS6 Product Family perpetual licenses for @home individuals was about 10%...Creative Pros was about 40%, @Work Creatives (whatever that means) was about 25% as was EDU. So, this is Adobe's view of the industry...
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 21, 2013, 01:58:40 am
(whatever that means)
There's your problem. Without knowing what that means it's difficult to interpret what they're understanding from the numbers.

Funny how there's all those upward trending graphs of subscription revenues, but no graphs of perpetual licence revenue falling off the cliff and if that will result in any lost revenue.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 21, 2013, 02:11:57 am
Funny how there's all those upward trending graphs of subscription revenues, but no graphs of perpetual licence revenue falling off the cliff and if that will result in any lost revenue.

Well, check out slide 30...admittedly projections,  but Adobe is expecting perpetual licensing review to fall off to little by 2015 and almost nothing by 2016 but be above 2012 by 2016...

Look, I'm not trying to spin anything with this post...I'm just trying to add info to the conversation. Care to add anything useful?
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Morris Taub on May 21, 2013, 03:00:02 am
Jeff, thanks for the slide show link, but...

wait, wait, wait a minute...we can make charts about projections, guesstimates, and wishes to say and hope for anything we want...doesn't make them true, or even slightly accurate. The only charts that can be accurate are charts of the past. Right? And even then it depends who is giving the info and checking to see that the info is true. Also, if Adobe kills the perpetual license models, what else can one expect besides no income from them? It's their wish, hope, and who can blame them for making charts to show this. All they have to do is make Lightroom and Elements subscription only and there you go, no income at all from the old, 'loved' way of doing business.

Ok, 'loved' my projection of the past. I'm allowed to dream, no? fond memories, all that, as I slowly ponder what to use when my copy of CS6 and Lightroom no longer work with my computer. See. I'm part of the decreasing perpetual license revenue.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 21, 2013, 08:04:50 am
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for posting that. It's a useful exposition of their strategy and most importantly demonstrates the depth of their commitment to the new business model. They have clearly put a tremendous amount of intellectual and managerial capital into this. As for the projections - no one should waste too much time over them. As someone who has been in the thickets of forecasts and projections for over four decades, my advice on that aspect is that the most important slide there is the Financial Disclaimer about "forward looking statements" on the first page.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 21, 2013, 08:29:06 am
As someone who has been in the thickets of forecasts and projections for over four decades, my advice on that aspect is that the most important slide there is the Financial Disclaimer about "forward looking statements" on the first page.
To add to what Mark notes, Adobe has an obligation to the investment community as well (they do have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders afterall).  Whether these projections hold up will await the test of time and it will be useful to benchmark Adobe's progress in meeting their goals.  from an investor's perspective, Adobe's move to the CC makes sense.  We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 21, 2013, 08:37:38 am
Alan, in the grander scheme of things, at least over the medium term and notwithstanding the thousands of customers who are pissed with them, I think you're right. They'll most likely make more money.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rand47 on May 21, 2013, 09:44:18 am
I am, apparently, a very small cog in Adobe's enormous wheel. Or, perhaps a better analogy, a mutant gene in Adobe's genome that, as it turns out, doesn't contribute to its survival likelihood. :-) 

Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 21, 2013, 11:55:34 am
Alan, in the grander scheme of things, at least over the medium term and notwithstanding the thousands of customers who are pissed with them

Future will tell, but I would not under estimate the power of influence of these tens of thousands of unhappy [former] customers.

Once you generate such a dynamic, your start to draw people to other platforms that start to improve faster, students in particular and end up having talented young people not taking jobs because of Adobe tools being used instead of other tools they know better... those same talented guys start to create brilliant stuff with other tools and promote their work successfully.

It can spiral out of control in a pretty short amount of time.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 21, 2013, 11:59:23 am
Speaking of analogies... "Survival of the fittest" comes to mind (for users, not Adobe).

We hate change. We resist it. We crave stability. And yet the only constant thing is change.

Adobe introduced the change. We can adapt to it or...become irrelevant. It is not the strongest or loudest (objectors) who will survive, but those able to adapt.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 21, 2013, 01:14:25 pm

It can spiral out of control in a pretty short amount of time.

Cheers,
Bernard


I'd be surprised. But yes, time will tell.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: kirkt on May 21, 2013, 01:15:41 pm
Aside from all of the managerial Powerpoint-like heebie jeebies that that presentation gives me, the financial projection for the "Creative Product Family Revenue Model" (last slide) seems to indicate that the revenue for the Creative Family of products under the new subscription paradigm will not increase significantly, compared to 2012, over the next 3 to 3.5 years.  That is, it appears that the revenue will be more or less flat but shifted from the perpetual revenue to the subscription revenue.

The presentation does not detail whether these revenue estimates are based on the number of projected subscribers at some pre-determined net cost per subscriber, or some floating projected cost for an increasing or decreasing subscriber base - i.e., something that would indicate Adobe's projection of the effect of their decision on the current (2012) user-base.

Fascinating.  I wonder how much time was spent coming up with all of the cute icons.  Edward Tufte must be rolling his eyes.

kirk
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 21, 2013, 01:19:11 pm
 That is, it appears that the revenue will be more or less flat but shifted from the perpetual revenue to the subscription revenue.

kirk

In its 2012 10-K submission to the SEC Adobe actually cited medium-term revenue decline through the transition as a risk, because the pattern of revenue flow will change from being front-end lumpy to more gradual over time. They are obviously engaging a longer-term strategy.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: kirkt on May 21, 2013, 01:25:46 pm
That's what the highly uninformative bar graph at the end of the presentation also appears to demonstrate.  Again, I'd be curious to know where the inevitable (?) growth will come from in this model.  More users or more cost to users?  Or both?  It would be interesting to see Adobe's projection of what the "user" will look like once the projected increase starts to occur.

kirk
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 21, 2013, 01:28:21 pm
I'd think both. They are probably counting on the vast majority of the client base to throw-in the towel and subscribe, plus normal year-to-year client base growth.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: jrp on May 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm
http://bythom.com (http://bythom.com) is Thom Hogan's analysis of the slides.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: ButchM on May 21, 2013, 03:52:10 pm
We can adapt to it or...become irrelevant.

I'm going to expend whatever effort is necessary to "adapt" by using my current perpetual licensed versions of Adobe software until they they are no longer functional or useful, then adopt whatever the best competing options that are available at the time ... my financial contributions that would have gone to Adobe, will become entirely "irrelevant" to their bottom line as those funds will be invested elsewhere.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: tho_mas on May 21, 2013, 04:10:22 pm
We hate change.
I do not.

Quote
Adobe introduced the change. We can adapt to it or...become irrelevant. It is not the strongest or loudest (objectors) who will survive, but those able to adapt.
now, this is one of the most bluntly positive reinforcements of capitalism I've ever read on a "free" forum.
Congratulations... we came to the point where we confuse cynicism with necessities.
Powerlessness and insight are really NOT the same.
Damn...

Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: MHMG on May 21, 2013, 05:05:30 pm
A very informative slide presentation. My humble assessment: Adobe figures by upping the price tag for CC to it's pro subscriber base compared to previous existing perpetual license upgrade pricing, its "creative and pro" base of users will more than compensate for the considerable fallout likely (perhaps already) coming from the 10% home user and 25% education base. Of those two groups, the 25% education component may be the long term achilles heel of Adobe's new business model. Corporate "goodwill" is hard for bean counters to quantify, but it has a real tangible value nonetheless. If colleges and universities quit teaching PS, Indesign, etc., and opt to present courses based on less costly and more "open source" alternatives, it will breed a whole new generation of professionals that simply have no loyalty to Adobe's pro software offerings. Moreover, it will now spark more independent software development to fill the pricing vacuum. So, short term planning by Adobe accountants suggests a net positive coming in 2016, but longer term, the prospects may be worse. Did Adobe hire a bunch of former Kodak Execs or something? The history of corporate management blunders paints a harsh picture.

If I'd had a say in the Adobe boardroom, I'd have pressed for a continuation of both perpetual "standalone" versions as well as an always up to date subscription plan. Even the stodgy old auto industry gets this. You can buy or lease, whatever works better for you.  I truly doubt the software programming overhead to support both software purchasing models is all that daunting.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 21, 2013, 05:49:29 pm
Speaking of analogies... "Survival of the fittest" comes to mind (for users, not Adobe).

We hate change. We resist it. We crave stability. And yet the only constant thing is change.

Adobe introduced the change. We can adapt to it or...become irrelevant. It is not the strongest or loudest (objectors) who will survive, but those able to adapt.

That's one way to look at the situation.

Another way to look at the situation is to consider the relevance Adobe as a critical path solution provider.

As Thom as highlghted in his analysis of the recent Adobe presentation, the current decision highlights the fact that Adobe has taken a conscious decision to alienate/get rid of 50% of their user base in favor of a possible business uplift.

We somehow feel that corporate customers will not be affected significantly by this decision or will like it. The real question I would have as a corporate user of Adobe is what other decision they will take next down the road that may alienate 50% of corporate users 5 years down the road if someone at Adobe decides that it will again favor their business a few years later. Think price increase, think solutions that are a bit more complex/costly to maintain,...

Do you want to maintain such a company on the critical path of what you do?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 21, 2013, 05:59:27 pm
If colleges and universities quit teaching PS, Indesign, etc., and opt to present courses based on less costly and more "open source" alternatives, it will breed a whole new generation of professionals that simply have no loyalty to Adobe's pro software offerings.

Colleges and universities are obligated to prepare students for professional careers...unless the pros quit using Adobe pro apps, I don't see how colleges and universities can quite teaching Adobe pro apps. I also know that Adobe EDU is working very hard with colleges and universities to institute special edu programs that make it easier for colleges and universities to deploy Adobe pro apps and monthly pricing for students. For example, the entire CC is available for students & teachers for $29.99 vs $49.99 for individual pricing. There's currently a special price of the entire CC for $19.99 (although that runs out June 25th).

Adobe is pretty proactive in working with colleges and universities and have recently launched a new program for education called the Education Enterprise Agreement (EEA). This program will allow term access to the Creative Cloud desktop applications that are essential for faculty, staff and students and is available through authorized channel resellers.

So, I don't think the edu CC will be a weakness that leads to less students entering the marketplace trained to use Adobe pro apps.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 21, 2013, 06:22:42 pm
Look, I am among the ones that complain, I too want to keep the status quo (read: upgrade every second cycle), I hate Adobe for what they are doing, etc.

I am just pointing out the inevitable, that after the dust settles, most of us will adapt to the new reality, and that's what Adobe is counting on.

Who is to say that, if the subscription models succeeds, everyone won't switch to it ultimately? Microsoft, Google, Nik, Apple, etc. Shrink-wrapped software and perpetual licenses might go the way of floppy disks, betamax video and CD music. We will kick and scream along the way, but how many people do you see today with a Walkman?

To put things into a perspective, my housing association is currently forcing me to fork out close to $4K for deck maintenance on my modest townhouse (advertised at purchase as "maintenance free"). That comes to about $500 per year. I can assure you that Photoshop provides much more pleasure in my life than the damn deck.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: ButchM on May 21, 2013, 06:40:37 pm
Look, I am among the ones that complain, I too want to keep the status quo (read: upgrade every second cycle), I hate Adobe for what they are doing, etc.

I am just pointing out the inevitable, that after the dust settles, most of us will adapt to the new reality, and that's what Adobe is counting on.

Who is to say that, if the subscription models succeeds, everyone won't switch to it ultimately? Microsoft, Google, Nik, Apple, etc. Shrink-wrapped software and perpetual licenses might go the way of floppy disks, betamax video and CD music. We will kick and scream along the way, but how many people do you see today with a Walkman?

Who is to say if the corporate entities you reference may also go the route of AOL, Yahoo, et al (those who were once the envy of the world and are either gone or only shadows of their former selves) ... who were once the movers and shakers of the industry that made grave errors in judgement that cost them far more than they expected?

No single entity is so perfect in their execution of concept that they are without weakness. Sure, today Adobe is the top dog in the "creative pro" options for software ... but I firmly believe that their actions over the past two years has sent a signal to some very hard working, energetic developers that the door is ajar just far enough to gain a foothold to make the effort worthwhile. There is a huge slice of the pie available for the asking, if a competitor can offer an alternative solution ... even if a few folks do sign up for CC in the interim ... if a viable option presents itself ... there would be little Adobe could do to force users to stay (after all, CC subscribers have no equity involved, only a monthly stipend they are compelled to turn over) ... If the grass is ever discovered to be greener elsewhere ... it would be quite easy to abandon their CC subscription.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 21, 2013, 06:48:09 pm
Who is to say that, if the subscription models succeeds, everyone won't switch to it ultimately? Microsoft, Google, Nik, Apple, etc.

"Microsoft is now offering a consumer version of its Office 365 service, which turns the suite from a shrinkwrapped product you pay for in one lump sum into a subscription service."

Time, Jan. 30, 2013 - Should You Subscribe to Microsoft Office 365? (http://techland.time.com/2013/01/30/office-365/)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on May 21, 2013, 06:59:38 pm
"Microsoft is now offering a consumer version of its Office 365 service, which turns the suite from a shrinkwrapped product you pay for in one lump sum into a subscription service."

And the article continues with "And as you’ll see if you visit Office.com, it’s emphasizing this new Office-as-a-service over the conventional versions. (They remain available, although Microsoft has done away with previous versions that entitled you to install the suite on more than one computer.)"

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: jrsforums on May 21, 2013, 07:02:21 pm
And the article continues with "And as you’ll see if you visit Office.com, it’s emphasizing this new Office-as-a-service over the conventional versions. (They remain available, although Microsoft has done away with previous versions that entitled you to install the suite on more than one computer.)"

Cheers,
Bart

Always nice to have complete, rather than partial, info....Thanks, Bart
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 21, 2013, 07:05:23 pm
... the conventional versions. (They remain available...

The same thing Adobe was claiming, until yesterday ;)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on May 21, 2013, 07:17:40 pm
The same thing Adobe was claiming, until yesterday ;)

Hi Slobodan,

While that is correct, Microsoft have also said they anticipate offering perpetual use licenses for the next ten years. That's 'slightly' less alarming than pulling all perpetual licensed products overnight, wouldn't you say?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 21, 2013, 10:12:27 pm
Always nice to have complete, rather than partial, info....Thanks, Bart

That is why I provided the link to the article when I posted that quote.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 03:40:01 am
Colleges and universities are obligated to prepare students for professional careers...unless the pros quit using Adobe pro apps, I don't see how colleges and universities can quite teaching Adobe pro apps.
Two problems there.
1. Colleges and Universities often teach the subjects, not the software. You can learn digital imaging, DTP, vector based illustration, video editing etc. with packages other than Adobe's.
2. Funding. If Adobe charge too much, educational institutions simply won't be able to afford them. The pressures on cutting spending in Europe are immense. Plus if students see that they'll immediately have to subscribe to CC as soon as they leave college, other alternatives will be more appealing. One key selling point for CS in the past has been that if you buy it as a student you can keep using it after the course has finished, often for years without needing further expenditure.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 22, 2013, 03:53:32 am
Two problems there.
1. Colleges and Universities often teach the subjects, not the software. You can learn digital imaging, DTP, vector based illustration, video editing etc. with packages other than Adobe's.

Uh...ok...so you are saying students would be fine learning digital imaging using GIMP? Really?]

Quote
2. Funding. If Adobe charge too much, educational institutions simply won't be able to afford them. The pressures on cutting spending in Europe are immense. Plus if students see that they'll immediately have to subscribe to CC as soon as they leave college, other alternatives will be more appealing. One key selling point for CS in the past has been that if you buy it as a student you can keep using it after the course has finished, often for years without needing further expenditure.

Other alternatives like what? GIMP? Hey, GIMP is free...wonder why it hasn't gotten very far? I mean, it's really cheap...

Sounds hollow bud...but you go with it...
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 04:07:22 am
Other alternatives like what? GIMP?
Don't be so silly as suggesting digital imaging is either Photoshop CC or The Gimp.

There's an awful lot of fundamentals that other products do just as well.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 22, 2013, 04:14:50 am
There's an awful lot of fundamentals that other products do just as well.

Like what? Exactly what would a college or university choose to teach instead of Photoshop? I'm actually curious.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 04:34:25 am
Like what? Exactly what would a college or university choose to teach instead of Photoshop? I'm actually curious.
Your question fails to understand that there's a difference between teaching the subject basics (that can learnt on any capable software) and teaching a specific product.

Colleges often need to teach The REAL basics.
Understanding things like levels, curves, understanding hue/saturation/luminance, what a layer is, what transparency means, what a mask is, how to use a mask, understanding selections etc...

It's all basic and obvious stuff to the cognoscenti here, but there a lot of students who start with embarrassingly little knowledge.

You don't need Photoshop CC to teach all this.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 22, 2013, 04:49:05 am
You don't need Photoshop CC to teach all this.

When was the last time you talked to any photo or graphic artist students? I had time to talk with a variety at a recent PSE (Society of Photo Educators) conference here in Chicago a couple of months ago (way before the CC announcement). All the students I talked to were all about learning Lightroom and Photoshop. I seriously doubt any of the colleges and universities could get away with teaching digital imaging with anything the kids thought was lame (and anything not Photoshop or Lightroom is lame).

So, what apps could a college or university possible teach that the students would NOT smell copout? (understand that in general, the students are better informed and more advanced than their instructors–which is the biggest problem right now in photo edu).

Sorry, I think you are talking through your hat here.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Morris Taub on May 22, 2013, 05:36:11 am
Your question fails to understand that there's a difference between teaching the subject basics (that can learnt on any capable software) and teaching a specific product.

Colleges often need to teach The REAL basics.
Understanding things like levels, curves, understanding hue/saturation/luminance, what a layer is, what transparency means, what a mask is, how to use a mask, understanding selections etc...

It's all basic and obvious stuff to the cognoscenti here, but there a lot of students who start with embarrassingly little knowledge.

You don't need Photoshop CC to teach all this.

Rhossydd...I agree with Jeff here...I mean I understand what you're saying, but students who look forward to a career working for and with companies who do image manipulation need to know how photoshop and adobe products work. This is all tied to preparing files for indesign or dreamweaver, etc. Knowing how to make files compatible for print as well. Much of the pro print industry is married to photoshop. I've never been to a printer where their pre-press operation wasn't photoshop compatible, where they didn't or couldn't work with Indesign or Illustrator files.

It's why there's this debate goin' on now. Adobe Photoshop and many Adobe programs have been the standard and accepted for over twenty years. Wish it wasn't so, but those are the facts.

Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 05:43:06 am
When was the last time you talked to any photo or graphic artist students?
About half an hour ago.
My daughter fairly recently completed A level photography at our local sixth form college (that's aged 16-18).

Nothing in the field of digital photography she was taught needed Photoshop.

Quote
Sorry, I think you are talking through your hat here.
No, just real experience helping someone for two years through her course. Plus seeing all the other 'students' at other courses I've attended over the years.

Maybe you can say what's so unique in Photoshop CC that is absolutely vital to understanding digital photography ?

Yes, it might well be the 'industry standard' at the moment, but pricing it out of non-commercial user's budgets may in the long term change that.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 05:48:04 am
but students who look forward to a career working for and with companies who do image manipulation need to know how photoshop and adobe products work.
Not every photography course is directly targeted at long term careers in the industry. It's those more general courses that will look closely at whether using the expensive industrial heavyweight product is best for their particular curriculum.
We already see office software being taught with Open Office instead of MS Office, maybe something similar will happen with imaging products too.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 22, 2013, 06:05:24 am
Maybe you can say what's so unique in Photoshop CC that is absolutely vital to understanding digital photography ?

Nothing about Photoshop CC per se (since it hasn't even shipped yet) but I'm talking Adobe pro level apps for college students hoping to get a job in the industry (and I'm talking college, not high school level) you know, students that want to get a real job after graduation...
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Morris Taub on May 22, 2013, 06:08:29 am
Not every photography course is directly targeted at long term careers in the industry. It's those more general courses that will look closely at whether using the expensive industrial heavyweight product is best for their particular curriculum.
We already see office software being taught with Open Office instead of MS Office, maybe something similar will happen with imaging products too.

yes, I agree with you here. I mean even speaking of my own work, printing at home, or sending a file to a pro print shop, I don't need a photoshop file. I've used myriad types of software for various things.

But when compatibility becomes an issue, when you're full time or freelance working with or for a designer or art director, choices about software become limited. The industry standards can't be ignored. I'd say a student should be taught the basics of photoshop and a few other programs as well. Why not? Learning how to do similar things in a number of programs isn't a bad thing.

I do hope in a few years this isn't the case. But today, it's what's for breakfast. Art directors and in-house art departments don't usually have the time to waste adapting 'other' types of files to their work flow. They could, they might, but the more compatible you are with a client the better.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 06:20:42 am
Nothing about Photoshop CC per se (since it hasn't even shipped yet)
My point exactly. There's no magic in PS that others haven't got.
As I understand it CC has been available for a year now and you've previously mentioned has been in beta as CS7 for some time.
Quote
but I'm talking Adobe pro level apps for college students hoping to get a job in the industry
That's only a part of the educational market.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 06:27:58 am
But when compatibility becomes an issue, when you're full time or freelance working with or for a designer or art director, choices about software become limited.
From what I've seen the only compatibility issues in digital imaging for distribution are caused by Adobe's use of psd in PS. The others, jpg & Tiff very, very rarely have issues with compatibility.
Quote
The industry standards can't be ignored. I'd say a student should be taught the basics of photoshop and a few other programs as well. Why not? Learning how to do similar things in a number of programs isn't a bad thing.
If you understand the basics properly switching between programs really should be pretty much a non-issue. Do people really need to be taught how to find a levels option in different software ?
The only major issue if a program uses a totally different methodology, eg parametric editing took some people a while to grasp and nodal editing could trip a few people up.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Tim_Smith on May 22, 2013, 09:08:20 am
My general feeling of anger towards Adobe for forcing me into their new model makes it difficult to be objective about the issue. When I try to put it into focus and concentrate how it will effect my livelihood, I realize that unless something changes in the next couple of years, I will have no choice but to subscribe to the CC model.

I know that this is a photography forum but my livelihood has been derived from Graphic Design for the past 15 years. It is in that category that I can be considered a "Pro", while photography is more of a passion or hobby. Unlike PS, InDesign (and to some extent) Illustrator are version-exclusive. By that I mean that unless a file generated by the newest version of either program is "saved back", it is unreadable by older versions of the same program. Since I often receive files from clients that have been created by other designers, occasionally I would have to ask the client to return to the former designer and ask for a "save-back" version so I could open the file. That's a frustration for the client and doesn't make me look good. Usually that would only happen if I was late in adopting the newest CS version. I can easily see a point in the future where my reluctance to buy into the model will allow that to happen again and I dread that moment since that is the point when I will have to knuckle under and subscribe.

I have been around long enough to remember the Pagemaker to Quark to Indesign evolution. At each point along that product-preference timeline, whilst one of the programs was considered to be the "Industry Standard", users scoffed at the idea that any other program could ever replace the then leader. Quark was (in its heyday) a revolution and completely destroyed Pagemaker. And just when the loyal Quark base was at its height of frustration with the arrogance of Quark, InDesign quietly stepped in and ate Quark's lunch. Nobody was any happier about InDesign's triumph than I was. It's a great program and just as before, at the height of its reigning king position, it's hard to imagine anything could come along to replace it. But, simply because I hate the CC model so much, I sincerely hope something does. I would willingly go through that learning curve just to avoid being forced into submission by Adobe.

I have been a huge fan and admirer of Adobe for a very long time. But this has changed everything. Maybe they know what I want better than I do—time will tell. For now though, this new model seems like an Adobe focused plan and not a Customer focused plan. Smells bad to me.

Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: lhodaniel on May 22, 2013, 12:35:25 pm
Also, Microsoft made their Office subscription a good deal. $99 a year gets you 5 seats instead of two. This is perfect for families with kids in school. Adobe gives very little that is really needed or wanted by many, and has basically doubled the cost. That is insult to the injury of customers going from perpetual licenses to perpetual payments.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 22, 2013, 01:40:43 pm
Adobe gives very little that is really needed or wanted by many, and has basically doubled the cost.

Over the last week, I've thought it notable how many comments described very different individual circumstances and how true it is that the licensing change creates winners and losers among Adobe customers.

Naturally, we're each mostly concerned with what it means for us.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 22, 2013, 01:55:40 pm
that the licensing change creates winners and losers among Adobe customers.
I think the problem is that looking at the longer term there really won't be many winners.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 22, 2013, 02:09:11 pm
Perhaps the fear is that looking at the longer term we won't be among the winners.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially of the future."
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 22, 2013, 04:01:52 pm
Nothing about Photoshop CC per se (since it hasn't even shipped yet) but I'm talking Adobe pro level apps for college students hoping to get a job in the industry (and I'm talking college, not high school level) you know, students that want to get a real job after graduation...

And on top of which, I understand that being an Adobe Certified Expert in Photoshop is a credential with marketable value.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: DeanChriss on May 22, 2013, 06:45:51 pm
Also, Microsoft made their Office subscription a good deal. $99 a year gets you 5 seats instead of two. This is perfect for families with kids in school. Adobe gives very little that is really needed or wanted by many, and has basically doubled the cost. That is insult to the injury of customers going from perpetual licenses to perpetual payments.

In the long term I'm sure most software products will move from the perpetual license to the perpetual payment model. I think this will happen as products mature and manufacturers find there's little they can add in the way of new features to entice people to upgrade. Using the MS Office example, the latest versions of Outlook and Word can't do much that couldn't be done 10 years ago using the Office 2003 versions. They revamp the user interface every couple of years to make it look different, and add unrelated things like the ability to see photos of your Facebook friends when you get an email from one of them, but the documents and emails are pretty much as they have always been. Microsoft does seem to be handling the transition far more gracefully, and while they aren't offering innovation at least they're offering more "seats", thus providing some real value. Photo editing is a lot more complex, but I think Adobe sees itself in a similar situation sometime in the near future. I'm not sure how many new "wow" features Adobe can cook up for Photoshop, but my guess is that there's not a lot more to do. Beyond glitzy new features there are only refinements, and "works a little better than the old version" is unlikely to excite customers enough to upgrade. Lack of innovation, whether or not it's possible, doesn't matter in the perpetual payment model unless there's a good competitive product.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on May 22, 2013, 07:00:48 pm
In the long term I'm sure most software products will move from the perpetual license to the perpetual payment model. I think this will happen as products mature and manufacturers find there's little they can add in the way of new features to entice people to upgrade.

Indeed, diminishing returns for an inflated price ...

Quote
Microsoft does seem to be handling the transition far more gracefully, and while they aren't offering innovation at least they're offering more "seats", thus providing some real value.

Indeed. It also avoids alienating a segment of their (also financial) supporters ...

Quote
Photo editing is a lot more complex, but I think Adobe sees itself in a similar situation sometime in the near future. I'm not sure how many new "wow" features Adobe can cook up for Photoshop, but my guess is that there's not a lot more to do. Beyond glitzy new features there are only refinements, and "works a little better than the old version" is unlikely to excite customers enough to upgrade.

Exactly, although they've been dragging their feet getting even the basics up to standards. Now these will be sold as benefits/improvements, while they were just very much overdue catch-ups (e.g. resampling quality, which yet remains to be proven to be an improvement).
 
Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on May 22, 2013, 07:40:39 pm
I'm not sure how many new "wow" features Adobe can cook up for Photoshop, but my guess is that there's not a lot more to do. Beyond glitzy new features there are only refinements, and "works a little better than the old version" is unlikely to excite customers enough to upgrade. Lack of innovation, whether or not it's possible, doesn't matter in the perpetual payment model unless there's a good competitive product.

But I think that is going to be one of the many Achilles’ heels within Adobe's 'pay for life' rental plan, because unless they do keep coming up with the "wow" features, then it will not take long for people and businesses managers, to start scratching their heads and thinking - can anyone tell me why am I paying every month for all these seats on the Adobe bus, when it isn't actually going anywhere anymore?

You know what, I personally think Adobe will eventually see sense and we will all get back together again and harmony will be restored, because we love their products so much and even though we might say that we don't and that we will find alternatives, Jeff is right, we wont, because there aren't any viable alternatives out there yet and that's why it's hurting so much. But I do believe the whole rental model is flawed and whatever Adobe might say about being OK with losing a few customers here and gaining a few customers there etc, they still want our money and we still want their products, so a satisfactory solution will be found.

Dave
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: DeanChriss on May 22, 2013, 08:06:31 pm
You know what, I personally think Adobe will eventually see sense and we will all get back together again and harmony will be restored, because we love their products so much and even though we might say that we don't and that we will find alternatives, Jeff is right, we wont, because there aren't any viable alternatives out there yet and that's why it's hurting so much. But I do believe the whole rental model is flawed and whatever Adobe might say about being OK with losing a few customers here and gaining a few customers there etc, they still want our money and we still want their products, so a satisfactory solution will be found.

Dave

I know you're correct about why it hurts so much. I also think Adobe has become very mercenary, and the lack of viable alternatives just gives them more leverage to extract money from their customers.

In a certain perverse way, I think my previous post may actually be an argument for a perpetual payment model, but for one of far more modest pricing than Adobe's. Even if there are few innovations to be had, people still need to create documents and emails, and edit photographs, and they need software to do those things. Paying for an upgrade or a complete new version of the product every 5-10 years when one is required to accommodate new hardware and/or operating systems won't keep any software shop in business. A modest perpetual payment scheme for mature software that's in a "maintenance mode" may be the price we have to pay simply to keep such software available, along with a few improvements from time to time. OTOH, one can't possibly justify Adobe's big price increase to pay for simple maintenance. But, they'll do it because they can.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 22, 2013, 08:18:22 pm
You know what, I personally think Adobe will eventually see sense and we will all get back together again and harmony will be restored, because we love their products so much and even though we might say that we don't and that we will find alternatives, Jeff is right, we wont, because there aren't any viable alternatives out there yet and that's why it's hurting so much. But I do believe the whole rental model is flawed and whatever Adobe might say about being OK with losing a few customers here and gaining a few customers there etc, they still want our money and we still want their products, so a satisfactory solution will be found.

We do love the products created by the talented engineers at Abode, but they unfortunately only represent a part of the company.

It is really a pity that, although they create probably 90% of the value we benefit from, this value is taken away from the hands of loving users by a bunch of NBA educated idiots striving to justify their salaries by "inventing" the next business model.

A lot of folks see the Adobe case as an example of the people against the corporate world and I know for a fact that the open source world will not let that go. We will have alternatives one+ year from now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 23, 2013, 02:53:44 am
It is really a pity that, although they create probably 90% of the value we benefit from, this value is taken away from the hands of loving users by a bunch of NBA educated idiots striving to justify their salaries by "inventing" the next business model.
Maybe they should have gone to business school? ;)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 23, 2013, 03:16:27 am
...this value is taken away from the hands of loving users by a bunch of NBA educated idiots striving to justify their salaries by "inventing" the next business model.

Sorry...I presume you mean MBA not NBA right?

I mean, it ain't like a bunch of basketball players are driving the new-fanggled licensing system.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 23, 2013, 05:46:18 am
Sorry...I presume you mean MBA not NBA right?

I mean, it ain't like a bunch of basketball players are driving the new-fanggled licensing system.

I would tend to agree with your assumption! :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 23, 2013, 07:04:20 am
Also, Microsoft made their Office subscription a good deal. $99 a year gets you 5 seats instead of two. This is perfect for families with kids in school. Adobe gives very little that is really needed or wanted by many, and has basically doubled the cost. That is insult to the injury of customers going from perpetual licenses to perpetual payments.
This is a poor comparison given that the installed base of MS Office users is several orders of magnitude greater than the Adobe CC base will ever be.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 23, 2013, 08:12:58 am
I'd agree with you in sense that Microsoft can sell many more units at a lower price. But what's important is that it is perceived as a good deal - I should know, I went for it. Similar issues apply to what happens if I stop subscribing to Microsoft or Adobe, so it makes me think that one's objections to the subscription model are quite not as cast iron as they may seem. If the price is right, you hold your nose and sign up.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 23, 2013, 12:25:52 pm
I'd agree with you in sense that Microsoft can sell many more units at a lower price. But what's important is that it is perceived as a good deal - I should know, I went for it. Similar issues apply to what happens if I stop subscribing to Microsoft or Adobe, so it makes me think that one's objections to the subscription model are quite not as cast iron as they may seem. If the price is right, you hold your nose and sign up.

The big difference between Microsoft and Adobe is that very little of Office has fundamentally changed since the turn of the century, so it almost doesn't matter what version you have a perpetual license for, vs what you choose to buy on the rental program. The changes have been largely frills for a decade and there isn't much of anything they need to add to meet my needs; the fundamental design flaws in MSWord have been there forever and are unlikely to be addressed based on past experience. At least based on what I need to use from those applications for my consulting work.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 23, 2013, 01:00:45 pm
Depends how you define "frills" and "fundamentally". But that's beside the point, because it's still the perception of a good deal that makes people sign up, despite the bad odour of subscription.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: yaredna on May 23, 2013, 01:49:10 pm
Few years ago, résumés used to include a reference to "experienced Lotus 1-2-3" or "experienced "Word Perfect". Schools used to teach dactylo typing too.

Wake up, Guys. Adobe kicked its own nest, and awoke the beast. Now there will be solid alternatives to aphotoshop popping up, and increasing in features /value : Acorn, Pixelmator, Paintshop Pro, Photoline, Gimp (despite what a guy called eschew thinks).

Adobe is replacing the stickiness factor of a perpetual license, with the desire for perpetual revenues. They'll get what they brgained for... Or not!
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 23, 2013, 01:54:44 pm
Depends how you define "frills" and "fundamentally". But that's beside the point, because it's still the perception of a good deal that makes people sign up, despite the bad odour of subscription.

Yes John, but the main point I was trying to make is that if you have a perpetual Office license to a recent version (recent being anything in the last ten years) and you don't want to subscribe for the future, or you do subscribe, create a bunch of documents and then decide to end it, because MSFT has been very attentive to backward compatibility and because the changes are not monumental from release to release, you are probably not at the same potential level of risk to the usability of your future documents created under the rental scheme as perhaps you could be (remains to be seen) with an Adobe rental scheme for Photoshop. And MS has made the cost very tolerable, and provided for five seats, and still allows you to buy an indefinite license for one seat. So as a package, the risk perception and the cost is arguably more consumer-friendly than what Adobe is doing.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 23, 2013, 02:11:08 pm
The other thing about MS Office is that the alternative freeware office suites are generally compatible with Office files.  The big exception of course are the templates which are likely to be proprietary to Office but if one is not a big user of them it's not a big deal to change.  I thought about Open Office for a while but then all my old work is with MS Office and my clients are as well.  As a consultant I cannot risk incompatibility at all.  My wife who is a university professor is constantly getting files from students that don't open in MS Word which really pisses her off and requires a call to IT support (me!!!) for assistance.

PS is different because so much is probably proprietary to the software in terms of legacy work residing on ones computer (unless you have saved them as flattened TIFF files).  Certainly going forward it might be easier to rationalize one of the other programs for PS functions but there 'might' be a LR issue (don't know for sure) if one is still using that Adobe program.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: lhodaniel on May 23, 2013, 02:41:52 pm
You know what, I personally think Adobe will eventually see sense and we will all get back together again and harmony will be restored, because we love their products so much and even though we might say that we don't and that we will find alternatives,

Dave, you might be a little optimistic. I've used Nikons since 1983. There have been a couple of times when Nikon has pissed me off to the point of *almost* switching to Canon. If I had gone through the pain and expense of that, I would have been Canon for life. This situation with Adobe for me is the same. The fact that there are no equal alternatives at present have made the exclusion of Adobe products painful. But, I am now formulating just that move. Once I do that, I will not return. Adobe has a very finite window to undo this, or they have lost me forever. I'm dumping LR right now, because it is a database. The more images I commit to it, the more edits I lose when they either move it to CC only or drop it. So, it stops now for me.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 23, 2013, 02:56:39 pm
I'm dumping LR right now, because it is a database. The more images I commit to it, the more edits I lose when they either move it to CC only or drop it.

You seem to feel that will fix the problem but afaict it only moves the problem to whatever you decide to use next?

The only way I know to have an independent archive of images with edits is to build an archive of flattened tiffs exported from your software.

Do you have some other approach?
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 23, 2013, 03:16:50 pm
The only way I know to have an independent archive of images with edits is to build an archive of flattened tiffs exported from your software.

Do you have some other approach?
DNG with the embedded previews updated.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 23, 2013, 03:47:43 pm
DNG with the embedded previews updated.

Are DNG embedded previews lossy jpegs or a lossless format?
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 23, 2013, 04:19:17 pm
Clearly lossy as they are JPEGs and only 8 bit. Peter Krogh used to do a demo (maybe still does) where he invited his audience to distinguish a print made from the raw data and one from the DNG's preview, and very few pro photographers could tell one from the other.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 23, 2013, 04:47:25 pm
I wondered because one of the websites I looked at after you mentioned DNG was Peter Krogh's (http://dpbestflow.org/DNG#comparing-raw-dng), and Figure 5 has the phrase "Previews may be saved as 16 bit, lossless images" which left me somewhat confused as I thought they were jpeg.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 23, 2013, 05:19:22 pm
Good point. I suspect the key is the word "can".
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on May 23, 2013, 08:00:48 pm
I do not want to upset anyone here, I really don't, so please allow me to get my apologies in first just in case I do, but I am sorry, because whenever I hear people on any of the forums around the net, talking about swapping out of PS to some other up and coming image editing tool, it makes me wonder just how much of the advanced functionality within PS they understand and are able to use, to even begin thinking that is a viable and alternative solution, it isn't.

And no, I am not an Adobe evangelist although I do seem to be addicted to PS. I have no intention of signing up to the cloud - actually it isn't the cloud or anything to do with cloud computing, it's just plain old DRM under another and supposedly easier to swallow name if you think about it.

I am going to stick with what I've got for at least the next 5 years and grit my teeth hoping Adobe come to their senses. CS6 will run on the latest W8 point release, so maybe I will be able to stretch that 5 years to around 8 years or so.

I intend to be a "Photoshop Survivalist".  ;)

Dave
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: lhodaniel on May 23, 2013, 08:33:20 pm
You seem to feel that will fix the problem but afaict it only moves the problem to whatever you decide to use next?

The only way I know to have an independent archive of images with edits is to build an archive of flattened tiffs exported from your software.

Do you have some other approach?

That is true. But if I have to save TIFF's, that defeats the whole purpose of LR with parametric edits. I can save TIFF's with any raw converter. So far, none of the other companies have shown the mercenary traits that Adobe has. I'm taking a look at Capture NX2 and C1 Pro. I doubt if Nikon or Phase One will decide to only rent their cameras. I also think it's a good idea to separate the raw converter from the DAM.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 23, 2013, 09:17:32 pm
That is true. But if I have to save TIFF's, that defeats the whole purpose of LR with parametric edits.

They serve different purposes: a non-proprietary image archive provides some longer-term safeguard of your independence; LR with parametric edits preserves IQ and provide convenience in the medium-term.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: lhodaniel on May 23, 2013, 09:44:19 pm
Isaac, right. But I don't have to use LR to get that. CNX2 does parametric edits to NEFs and exports to TIF. (I will save pristine nef copies too, if I go that route.) Dave, I have no intention of dumping what I have. I will use PSCS6 Standard until I can't. But, if I find an interesting editor other than PS, I might also support it. I won't dispose of LR 4.4 either. But it probably won't be my anchor app going forward.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: JhnMhn on May 23, 2013, 11:59:56 pm
Evolution is a good metaphor for what's going on now with Adobe's subscription-cloud-forcing move. Neither is progressive , predictable, or orderly. The biggest, baddest beast appears to be going to rule for ever… even as the meteor is approaching.Punctuated Equilibrium describes how things change slowly & gradually till some new perturbation sends everything off to a new and previously unpredicted, and unimaginable future.
Adobe has just severely perturbed things, and there is no going back. There will be increasingly competitive products that fill the opening Adobe has made and can't undo. Ironically, Adobe's CS 6 gives us time to get there. The coming alternatives also will not be burdened with Adobe's  patched together, memory-hogging bloatware, and could be better and more efficient.
Adobe may have control over their present, but the very near-term future is in increasing flux and far from in their control. My business will survive just fine because I am prepared to adapt and have removed Adobe's ring from my nose.
Ok, enough mixed metaphors, back to your regular programing.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Rhossydd on May 24, 2013, 02:15:48 am
it makes me wonder just how much of the advanced functionality within PS they understand and are able to use,
The issue is often that people don't need all that 'advanced functionality' at all and have woken up to understand that just upgrading by rote isn't really needed any more.
That's lead a lot of people to look elsewhere and have found other products that offer all they need, plus some of them actually have some useful features PS doesn't have.

CS4 has all I need and will still be first choice for editing for me for very many years. However looking around I've found that for some tasks other editors are actually easier to use.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on May 24, 2013, 07:20:20 am
The issue is often that people don't need all that 'advanced functionality' at all and have woken up to understand that just upgrading by rote isn't really needed any more.
That's lead a lot of people to look elsewhere and have found other products that offer all they need, plus some of them actually have some useful features PS doesn't have.

CS4 has all I need and will still be first choice for editing for me for very many years. However looking around I've found that for some tasks other editors are actually easier to use.

I entirely agree. I mean some people spend tens of thousands on kit, lenses and cameras gear and then leave everything set to 'auto' and if that works for them then that is fine, but for photographers that want full control of everything and use all the advanced functionality of every piece of kit and software tool they own, then the alternative image editing programs people are suggesting, will never get anywhere close to PS, I am sorry to say it, but it's true.

In fact I am just realising as I type this, that PS is just so bloody good and that we have all been witness to the birth and evolution of something outstanding, yet we never realised it until this licensing debacle reared its ugly head and took us all by surprise. Yet Adobe obviously realised it and how they now had all our family jewels cupped tightly in their hands, so thought it was about time they gave them a good squeeze, just to let us know who’s in control.

So if you want the advanced functionality that PS can offer, then I say dig in and wait until the storm passes, but if you can get by on auto, then by all means jump into whatever alternative image editing tool floats your boat.

Dave
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Oldfox on May 24, 2013, 07:49:29 am
And no, I am not an Adobe evangelist although I do seem to be addicted to PS. I have no intention of signing up to the cloud...

I am going to stick with what I've got for at least the next 5 years and grit my teeth hoping Adobe come to their senses. CS6 will run on the latest W8 point release, so maybe I will be able to stretch that 5 years to around 8 years or so.

I intend to be a "Photoshop Survivalist".  ;)

Dave

+1/+1/+1/ ::)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: lhodaniel on May 24, 2013, 09:26:34 am
There are those who will engage in Photoshop / Adobe snobbery. They consider those who would dare to try or use "lesser" software as graphically deficient simpletons who can't possibly be as good at their craft if they don't sing the Adobe mantra. It's the same with some Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica snobs. Or those that wouldn't dare to buy a Sigma 35 /1.4 because Sigma isn't "professional". Fortunately, I don't suffer from that. I'm not accusing anyone here of that trait, but it does exist.

I just bought a license to Sagelight. After trying it a few days, I am intrigued by the dynamic masking and layers approach it has. I haven't wrapped my head around its limitations yet. But at $40, I thought it would worth playing with and give support to the author to make it better. That is very cheap insurance against the Adobe protection racket.

Nobody asks a carpenter what brand of hammer he uses, and nobody forces him to rent that hammer. If other companies, particularly OS makers, try the same stunt as Adobe, I will be learning Linux and open-source software. The SAAS thieves might have their 5 years, but they might also bring in the Golden Age of open-source. Then those companies will starve.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: ChuckT on May 24, 2013, 11:48:01 am
I'll toss this in & excuse the post if it's been mentioned ...

Nowhere have I seen Adobe offering me a truly attractive price AND T1 or fiber & guaranteed 24/7 access to "the cloud".

So the local utility (electric and/or cable) hiccups (yesterday we were down for what was probably 5-10 minutes tho it seemed like hours) and I lose everything I just did? No thanks.

Me - I've signed the petition and I’ll keep my CS5 & LR4 (personal purchase) until this nonsense clears up one way or the other.


cvt
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 24, 2013, 12:41:57 pm
So the local utility (electric and/or cable) hiccups (yesterday we were down for what was probably 5-10 minutes tho it seemed like hours) and I lose everything I just did? No thanks.

Once more, Adobe Creative Cloud FAQ (http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html) --

Quote
You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days.  However, you'll be able to use products for 3 months (99 days) even if you're offline.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 24, 2013, 08:16:21 pm
In fact I am just realising as I type this, that PS is just so bloody good and that we have all been witness to the birth and evolution of something outstanding, yet we never realised it until this licensing debacle reared its ugly head and took us all by surprise. Yet Adobe obviously realised it and how they now had all our family jewels cupped tightly in their hands, so thought it was about time they gave them a good squeeze, just to let us know who’s in control.

That's the thing, we all like to think we are in control and that customers come first.

I have done a thorough analysis of my usage of PS these past 2 years and reached the conclusion that the only things I really need are:
- ability to work reliably on large images with good performance,
- 16 bits and color mgt,
- history,
- crop tool,
- layers and mask with luminosity mode,
- ideally adjustement curves, but I rarely apply more than 2 nowadays and pretty much only use curves so I don't really need adjustment layers in fact, a solid curve tool with accurate histogram display would do. I can think of several ways the current CS6 curve capability could be improved and never quite understood why Adobe was using ressources to deliver a sub-par pano capability instead of consolidating the basics further,
- ability to run key plug-ins
- ability to drive my Epson 9900

Nice to have would be:
- shadow/highlight correction which I only use to fine tune panos,
- ability to correct for verticals (I rarely use it though since C1 Pro and DxO have better capabilities)

The conclusion is that little of this is rocket science... what we need is simply a rock solid platform with a small number of well designed and implemented core capabilities... and we in fact already have a few of those as we speak today. They are so cheap that we don't need to bother with trial versions, I will buy all if them and donate for a year an amount equivalent to what I would pay with CC and encourage all of you to do the same!

The main gaps with a software like Pixelmator on Mac is the compatibility of key plug-ins like Silver eFex 2.0 or the Topaz line of plug-ins.

Anyway, they don't need to be ready today, we probably have 2 years, but it id key to buy these products today to fund their development.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: ButchM on May 24, 2013, 09:09:57 pm

The conclusion is that little of this is rocket science...

Cheers,
Bernard

Agreed ... I have just completed an eight week test of performing my entire RAW workflow with Aperture 3 vs Lr 4.x .... and in my estimation ... I am not missing out on much with using Aperture 3. Yes, PV2012 does have some advantages over Aperture 3 ... but not so significant as to deem my work in Aperture 3 as useless or worthless ... add in the factor that the Slideshow and Book features in Aperture 3 (which are both a significant enhancement to my personal bottom line) and it is a total win over what I could accomplish working strictly within Lightroom.

No single vendor should be allowed to dictate what their users should be able to accomplish ... and from this point forward ... I will NOT allow Adobe to do so for my interests ... even if they are judged by the masses as being "superior" ....
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: john beardsworth on May 25, 2013, 01:19:15 am
Apple Aperture limited to Apple hardware..... What were you saying about no single vendor? ;)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on May 25, 2013, 03:11:08 am
The main gaps with a software like Pixelmator on Mac is the compatibility of key plug-ins like Silver eFex 2.0 or the Topaz line of plug-ins.

Hi Bernard,

In case you didn't know, Topaz Labs have a plug-in called photoFXlab (http://www.topazlabs.com/photofxlab/) that also runs as a standalone application, and which allows to use their excellent plug-ins in a layer and mask enabled fashion.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 25, 2013, 06:24:34 am
Hi Bernard,

In case you didn't know, Topaz Labs have a plug-in called photoFXlab (http://www.topazlabs.com/photofxlab/) that also runs as a standalone application, and which allows to use their excellent plug-ins in a layer and mask enabled fashion.

Thanks Bart, I was not aware of this.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Isaac on May 25, 2013, 10:25:51 am
... it makes me wonder just how much of the advanced functionality within PS they understand and are able to use ...

That made me wonder if you've "done a thorough analysis of [your] usage of PS (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78578.msg633061#msg633061)" that you could share?

(Just curious).
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: ButchM on May 25, 2013, 08:18:21 pm
Apple Aperture limited to Apple hardware..... What were you saying about no single vendor? ;)

Well ... what I actually said was, I wouldn't allow a single vendor to "dictate" to me ...

Lot's of folks like to believe that Apple is "restrictive" and "constraining" ... in actual use of their hardware and software ... I simply haven't found that to be the case ... Just try to print a Book composed in Lr with any other vendor than Blurb ... you'll see what I mean ... even behind the fictitious "wall" that Apple is believed to impose ... In Aperture 3 I can create custom page sizes/spreads with the proper margins and bleeds to print my books anywhere I choose ... options are wonderful ... currently, I don't think Apple is holding me back ... It's Adobe's products that actually are arbitrarily restricting my workflow ... not Apple
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on May 25, 2013, 08:19:42 pm
That made me wonder if you've "done a thorough analysis of [your] usage of PS (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78578.msg633061#msg633061)" that you could share?

(Just curious).

Hi Isaac,

To tell you what I do with PS, would require that I write a book about it, which as it happens I am doing, in fact I tell lie, I am actually writing two books, so it would be very difficult and long winded for me to go into much detail here. Although I can say that some of the things I do with PS, don’t seem to be in any of the currently available advanced PS books – hence the book I am trying to write whenever I get a minute to spare, although I suppose the market may now dry up for this kind of thing - just my bloody luck eh?

But what the heck you’ve thrown down the gauntlet, so I will list a few of the things I do with PS off the top of my head, and I might also mention this is why I haven’t listed anything in Jeff’s thread about what Thomas would do, as I will have to use some of my own terminology for this, because I don’t really think there are any common terms for some of what I am doing - and no I don’t do everything to every image, as not all of them need it, but sometimes I must admit I do quite a lot.

In the ProPhoto-RGB colour space:

Multiple intersecting calculation masks, utilising primary complimentary and analogous channel overlays and blending modes.

Additive and subtractive alpha channel selections through multi-layered and intersecting luminosity masks.

Panoramic multiple exposure layer stack alignments and dynamic range levelling controls and stitching - no, not HDR, but more like dynamic compression and tonal curve flattening – you could perhaps better think of it more like subtracting pixel information from multiple layer stacks and then creating a sort of three dimensional flat curve that runs through the stack, which can then be reshaped according to the contrast level you require. Which also maximises image pixel quality by naturally incorporating the same principles as ETTR, without having to do, think or even understand ETTR, because you sort of get all the benefits of ETTR as a by product.

Edge and surface detection smoothing/sharpening and localised contrast enhancements or control.

Numerically accurate colour balance through complimentary primary colour per channel overlays. I have found you can actually finely tune the colour balance of all aspects of an image, without the image even being on screen (minimised), or by trying to observe the image optically to identify if there is indeed a colour cast, as you can do it quite simply by the numbers, which also means you don’t have to rely on correct monitor colour calibration etc or even optimal lighting to do this. It’s a party trick I show to my course attendees, which always seems to blow their socks off.

Automated mid tone colour identification and selection for mid point/mid tone and colour balance – I am doing this as an experiment and trying to create a perfect colour balance action by using this technique.

Distortion cropping – not cropping out distortion, but using distortion to crop within original aspect ratio and then applying history painting.

Levels based colour mapping for seamless overlays. A good technique for removing tonal shifts in large areas of colour, such as often seen in the sky etc and especially after using or should I say overusing a polariser.

And so on for LAB and CMYK etc. Then there’s the long list of other Actions that I have written for myself over the years, plus a whole other new set of things I have created/am creating for black and white images etc.

It is what I have taught myself to do over the many years (decades) I have been using PS, it is also what I teach along with how to capture a pleasing image in the first place of course, as well as all the required image data to allow you to get the most you can out of it, because its no good having the all the data and knowing how to manipulate it, if the image sucks right?

I am sure there are others out there who use similar techniques and refer to them differently, but this is some of what I do. I have picked up bits and pieces from here and there over the years, added on bits of my own or I have thought up something new for myself when I needed to get over a problem.

So yes I use PS in a fairly deep way and I am also fairly sure that I would not be able to do half of this stuff outside of PS. It is like I have self taught myself to play music on a grand piano, only now I am being told I can no longer own the piano, so if I want to continue playing I will have to rent the piano for a larger fee that is payable for rest of my life, or my only other option is to buy a different kind of piano, but one with half the keys missing  ???

Hope this answers your question Isaac?

Dave
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: judymcintosh on May 25, 2013, 09:47:28 pm
Hi Dave
I know but a fraction of what you do with Ps, which is one reason why I think I have no real use of any upgrades, and lots to learn to use "the existing grand piano" before wanting the latest and greatest just because its been invented.
I say this also to encourage you to do your book, or videos or whatever.

Im sure you are right about the potential of Ps (probably any version): Ive used intersecting luminosity masks (to take an example from you) and found them useful, but Im no where near mastery. Videos are a great way to learn this I have found.

What I think we "may" need in updating is:
1. newer camera profiles when those new cameras become available
2. improved raw developers (which PV2012 and COPro7 both have been recently)
and both of these are in the raw developer realm not an PS exclusive game or even where it has advantage (its even at best even with Lr at the same time, and may bootstrap Lr  backward when the two are of different versions).

Maybe a new PSx version will make tools that I might like (as a hobbyist photographer), but I suspect with better photographic technique/hardware, raw development +/- external editors (NIK/TOPAZ etc) and learning just a fraction of what you have learnt/developed (and or sharing actions) we will not be wanting for much.

So while I feel similar to you about subscription approach and wont be part of it, I think the positive will be reminding me to use the tools I already have (and paid for) better, look at alternatives, and if lots of people feel the same we may lift this to another level in our use (as apposed to what Jeff describes as largely evolutionary, as apposed to revolutionary advances within software now in another post). Put another way in not liking Adobe's move we can still appreciate what we have and learn from the discussions as I have in the few days Ive been looking. 

Now we just have to be careful that in updating anything  from Adobe, there is not a clause deep in the software licence "agreement" that removes our perpetual licence of what we already have................Scary thought!
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 26, 2013, 12:30:53 am
To tell you what I do with PS, would require that I write a book about it, which as it happens I am doing, in fact I tell lie, I am actually writing two books, so it would be very difficult and long winded for me to go into much detail here.

Dave, good luck being a "Photoshop Book Author" these days...Martin Evening and I have talked and he's really worried about Photoshop only books being, uh, dropping in droves (which might end up being a good thing for a few authors–we'll see).

Quote
Multiple intersecting calculation masks, utilising primary complimentary and analogous channel overlays and blending modes.

Additive and subtractive alpha channel selections through multi-layered and intersecting luminosity masks.

Yeah, the usual stuff...

Quote
Edge and surface detection smoothing/sharpening and localised contrast enhancements or control.

Yep...typical...

Quote
It’s a party trick I show to my course attendees, which always seems to blow their socks off.

Yep...something we do in PhotoKit Color...

Quote
Distortion cropping – not cropping out distortion, but using distortion to crop within original aspect ratio and then applying history painting.

Ok, ya got me there...I have no friggin' clue what you are talking about...must be your accent!

Look, Photoshop is a really deep application that most people only touch the surface of (or actually needs). But Photoshop is, at it's roots, a pro app. (I guess people I tell this to don't like me telling them that). There is nothing on the market now or in the near future that can take that away from Photoshop. For people who need 20, 30 or 40% of Photoshop, yes I suspect there will be new apps developed...but there will always be compromises and shortcomings by not offering everything Photoshop can do now, in Photoshop CS6 (and in the future with Photoshop CC).

I know some people don't like the fact that I see the whole multi-app CC as a deal (I use many but not all). I also understand if you only need Photoshop, or some % of Photoshop, the CC isn't an ideal situation. For the foreseeable future, you'll have two choices, get CS6 and sit on it...get the 1 year deal with Photoshop CC and see if you can live with it and figure out an exit strategy before you 1 year subscription expires. Otherwise start looking for an alternative...I've been looking, skimpy offerings...
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: dgberg on May 26, 2013, 04:02:05 am
In all of our Adobe talk we hear nothing from Apple?
If they are not chomping at the bit they should be.
This is the big chance to step up Aperture (Or a new program.) as a real Photoshop competitor.
With all the past bad blood between the two you would think Tim Cook and his team would be all over this.
Get a program out that can compete with Photoshop then you have to buy an Apple computer to make it work. How sweet is that.
If Steve Jobs were still here I can only imagine his take on all this.
If anyone has the resources Apple does.
Set a couple of billion aside to get this project going,if it is not already.
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: jrp on May 26, 2013, 07:22:33 am
...good luck being a "Photoshop Book Author" these days...Martin Evening and I have talked and he's really worried about Photoshop only books being, uh, dropping in droves (which might end up being a good thing for a few authors–we'll see).

It will be interesting to see how the latest example of this genre does -- http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Photoshop-Color-Workflow-Quartertone/dp/0988280809/ref=la_B001ILHHCO_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369567049&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Photoshop-Color-Workflow-Quartertone/dp/0988280809/ref=la_B001ILHHCO_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369567049&sr=1-1).  At least the prospect of everyone sticking with CS6 means that the accompanying actions will not need constant tuning to keep up with new versions of Photoshop. ;)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on May 26, 2013, 08:00:35 am
It will be interesting to see how the latest example of this genre does -- http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Photoshop-Color-Workflow-Quartertone/dp/0988280809/ref=la_B001ILHHCO_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369567049&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Photoshop-Color-Workflow-Quartertone/dp/0988280809/ref=la_B001ILHHCO_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369567049&sr=1-1).  At least the prospect of everyone sticking with CS6 means that the accompanying actions will not need constant tuning to keep up with new versions of Photoshop. ;)

Yes I use quite a few of Dan's methods, a cut down version of the 'Man from Mars' LAB curve can sometimes form quite a large part of my B&W workflow.

Ok, ya got me there...I have no friggin' clue what you are talking about...must be your accent!

If I have managed to go over the head of the undisputed king of PS, then truly my work here is done  ;D

But your right Jeff, it is probably my accent...

Dave
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 26, 2013, 10:43:50 am
Look, Photoshop is a really deep application that most people only touch the surface of (or actually needs). But Photoshop is, at it's roots, a pro app. (I guess people I tell this to don't like me telling them that). There is nothing on the market now or in the near future that can take that away from Photoshop. For people who need 20, 30 or 40% of Photoshop, yes I suspect there will be new apps developed...but there will always be compromises and shortcomings by not offering everything Photoshop can do now, in Photoshop CS6 (and in the future with Photoshop CC).

Jeff,

The thing is that not only amateur photographers are real mad at Adobe's move. You can add to that many independent professional illustrators/designers living on the edge and praying now that their Mac laptop doesn't die because they cannot afford CC and don't want to be at the mercy of a bad month when their credit card would be maxed out... which would leave them unable to open their files and deliver work for their next customers.

Those guys did pretty much bet their pro life on the continued affordability of CS.

As far as alternatives go, my educated guess is that 80% of photographers use PS the way I use it and it will not take 2 years for another competitor to deliver the goods for that scope.

On OSX Pixelmator is not there yet but the license I purchased yesterday enabled me to open large 16 bits tiffs without any problem. So the base is already there.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: JimGoshorn on May 27, 2013, 11:39:06 am
Jeff,

Are any of those masking techniques that Dave mentioned covered in your books or Martin Evening's books?

Jim
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: Schewe on May 27, 2013, 12:31:02 pm
Are any of those masking techniques that Dave mentioned covered in your books or Martin Evening's books?

Some...like luminosity based masked. At the moment, I can't keep the books straight (while working on a new book) so I'm not sure what is where. Must be a senior moment :~)
Title: Re: Adobe's Briefing slides at Adobe MAX
Post by: jrsforums on May 27, 2013, 12:44:22 pm
Jeff,

Are any of those masking techniques that Dave mentioned covered in your books or Martin Evening's books?

Jim

A lot of detailed info from Tony Kruper on granular luminosity masks

http://goodlight.us/writing/luminositymasks/luminositymasks-1.html