Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: marcmccalmont on May 19, 2013, 02:40:00 AM

Title: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 19, 2013, 02:40:00 AM
What's your favorite Matte paper?
...and why is it your favorite?
Thanks
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 19, 2013, 03:19:52 AM
The one I haven't tried yet, but will make my images look so much better!

Really, do honestly expect a reasonable answer?

Unless you divulge the type of work you shoot the type of printer you are using and the type of image you are selling (or giving away) the question is unanswerable...

"favorite Matte paper" for what?

You really need to concentrate your testing to readable available paper whose profiles are really good. Then test the hell out of them. If you get good results, post them here..
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JRSmit on May 19, 2013, 03:35:31 AM
The one I haven't tried yet, but will make my images look so much better!

Really, do honestly expect a reasonable answer?

Unless you divulge the type of work you shoot the type of printer you are using and the type of image you are selling (or giving away) the question is unanswerable...

"favorite Matte paper" for what?

You really need to concentrate your testing to readable available paper whose profiles are really good. Then test the hell out of them. If you get good results, post them here..
+1
I am in fact in the process of testing fine art papers, from Innova in this case, and all i can say is that it requires testing to understand the papers and get the most out of them. in that process i also learn for what types of images go with smooth, high white, medium textured etc. You will be surprised what for instance adding a small (say 0.5 sec) drying time per printhead pass will make on these papers. typical photopapers, RC papers, can also be matte, again you need to figure out what works best for you.
There is a lot of info already available on the internet, you need to work through this and factor the key aspects into your printing set up.
Looking forward to Jeff's print book, unfortunately a bit delayed because of some stormy cloud ;-)
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: bill t. on May 19, 2013, 03:36:27 AM
My favorite matte paper for landscapes is BC Elegance Velvet, for two reasons...

1. While its overall gamut is no better than any other matte paper, it produces a solid looking black and substantial looking images.

2. It can take canvas coating extremely well, which allows for glassless presentations.

I would probably prefer Epson Cold Press, except it exhibits a sandpapery texture when coated.

But basically, what Schewe said.  I tested a bunch, evaluated the overall mojo of each, and in my case finally picked one mainly on practical considerations as dictated by production requirements.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JRSmit on May 19, 2013, 03:47:01 AM
Bill,

What canvas coating do you use? And how do you apply it? I use hahnemuhle protective spray, 3 coats, for glassless use. Works fine, but perhaps your coating approach works better?
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 19, 2013, 03:48:47 AM
The one I haven't tried yet, but will make my images look so much better!
Posted this open ended question knowing some would respond this way but there will be others who will post their favorites and I'll be able to test half a dozen good papers instead of hundreds


Really, do honestly expect a reasonable answer?
YES

Unless you divulge the type of work you shoot the type of printer you are using and the type of image you are selling (or giving away) the question is unanswerable...
Not true every one has a favorite for what they shoot

"favorite Matte paper" for what?
for printing photographs on an inkjet printer :)

You really need to concentrate your testing to readable available paper whose profiles are really good. Then test the hell out of them. If you get good results, post them here..
Made my own profiles and am quite pleased with both the Canson Platine Fibre and Baryta now it is time to move onto the Mattes

Yes I have gotten very good input here on papers! I just finished profiling Canson Platine Fibre and Baryta from recommendations here. I would never have tried them on my own.
Why an open ended question? because the answers are unique with a wider spread of suggestions. But in general I go for Glossy on images with vibrant colors, Satin on most images and Matte for B&W or near monochromes.  
Cheers
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JRSmit on May 19, 2013, 04:07:51 AM
Prhaps you already know, but never the less: Check the spectrumviz.jar tool of Ernst Dinkla. it helps a bunch to narrow down the choice as there are only a few manufacturers, but many labels. Another good check is aaron dygart website for ink hanling of quite a few papers.
Both have contributed extensively to this forum.
 
Bythe way, what printer do you use?
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 19, 2013, 04:21:12 AM
Prhaps you already know, but never the less: Check the spectrumviz.jar tool of Ernst Dinkla. it helps a bunch to narrow down the choice as there are only a few manufacturers, but many labels. Another good check is aaron dygart website for ink hanling of quite a few papers.
Both have contributed extensively to this forum.
 
Bythe way, what printer do you use?

Thanks not familiar with that tool I'll look it up
Printers I've limited myself to Canon pigmented inks, one because the iPF5000 was my first good printer then I bought a used iPF9100 to print canvas and larger prints now that I'm in an apartment I have the Pixima PRO-1 all use Canons pigmented 12 ink system
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 19, 2013, 04:34:05 AM
Why an open ended question?

No...you didn't even bother to state the work you do nor the printer you are using. Either nugget would be useful to answering you question...but your OP was so open ended as to be a blatant disregard for the community (my opinion) and seemed to be asking people to do your own work for you...

You want to find out what aper to use, a least do some initial testing on your own to indicate you are at least willing to make an effort on your own behalf. Otherwise it really sounds like you just want somebody to do the heavy lifting and benefit from the time and expenses that others have invested. Seriously, your original post hit me like, screw you, do your own testing...I'm not gonna do your work for you...
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 19, 2013, 04:39:23 AM
No...you didn't even bother to state the work you do nor the printer you are using. Either nugget would be useful to answering you question...but your OP was so open ended as to be a blatant disregard for the community (my opinion) and seemed to be asking people to do your own work for you...

You want to find out what aper to use, a least do some initial testing on your own to indicate you are at least willing to make an effort on your own behalf. Otherwise it really sounds like you just want somebody to do the heavy lifting and benefit from the time and expenses that others have invested. Seriously, your original post hit me like, screw you, do your own testing...I'm not gonna do your work for you...
Schewe I'll take this off line and PM you
Marc :)
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 19, 2013, 07:27:09 AM
Schewe I'll take this off line and PM you

Yeah, well not change to my posts...tell us what you do and why you want the answers...otherwise it totally comes across as wanting to take advantage of the effort of others...(which any question here on LuLa is, it's really a question of how blatant the process is and how easy it may or may not be to answer).
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 19, 2013, 07:59:03 AM
Sure, see my re-post, but living overseas it is difficult and costly to tests hundreds of papers due to shipping weight, so as I have in the past (with success!) I'm asking for some help. When I asked for peoples "favorite paper" (months ago) there were many with the same favorite. I chose the top 6 for my own evaluation, even do my own profiles to be more consistent, in this way I can focus more efficiently and I was exposed to Canson papers that I was unaware of. In this post JRsmit shared spectrumviz.jar tool of Ernst Dinkla, just spent several hours looking at that info. I find answers to open ended questions sometimes surprising  usually enlightening. Sorry if you were offended don't really understand why, I mean if I asked what camera should I buy? without background info I would understand the frustration but if I posted what's your favorite camera? I don't see the offense? Let's say I had a ice cream stand or was an ice cream aficionado and posted Whats your favorite Ice Cream? Whats the offense? Not interested in a public argument with you if you want to help post an answer if you don't, don't. If as a professional it is too open ended for you to respond to, I understand. As a professional myself if I was asked "Whats your favorite Airplane?" I might ask for fun ,airliner or military? or I might just answer "My favorite of all time was the A-4 Skyhawk, my favorite light plane is the Falco and my favorite airliner is the 777" but I wouldn't take offense at the question. 
Cheers
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: hugowolf on May 19, 2013, 05:02:38 PM
For a smooth matte/matt/mat paper I prefer Canson Rag Photographique 310 over the more popular Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308. The Canson paper stays flat, the Hahnemühle paper has a tendency to curl after printing. For landscapes, the Hahnemühle can muddy dark greens. The Canson paper also has no OBAs.

I like BFK Rives for a very lightly textured paper. In the fine art world it is known as Rives BFK and is a traditional fine art printing paper.

For a medium textured paper, I really like Hahnemühle German Etching. It retains a lot of detail for a textured paper. I’m currently looking for an alternative in 100% cotton, which I find sells better, and without OBAs. If it was only for my own use, I would not be looking elsewhere.

For a heavily textured paper, I like Arches Aquarelle. But once you get into heavily textured papers, you get even more into personal preferences and suitability for individual images. There are lots of good watercolor papers about.

I also use Breathing Color Elegance Velvet and Pura Velvet.

One thing worth mentioning with regards textured papers is the loss of texture where the ink goes down. On some papers you can lose almost all texture in ink saturated areas, and only retain texture in the whites and lightest colors. Other papers will retain texture uneven under heavy inking, and some will lose texture even with little ink. It is worth testing textured fine art papers under different ink loads and with a variety of test images. A heavily textured light skinned face, for example, generally doesn’t work well unless the image is very large – probably larger than A3+.

Brian A
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: bill t. on May 19, 2013, 07:17:31 PM
What canvas coating do you use? And how do you apply it? I use hahnemuhle protective spray, 3 coats, for glassless use. Works fine, but perhaps your coating approach works better?

Three thin coats of BC Glamour II Gloss (only) with an HVLP sprayer.  Produces a satin finish with a relatively lush tonality enhancement.  But be careful, too much coating will take down the highlights.  Totally different beast than the "protective sprays" which do not much affect image appearance or print robustness.  A GII coated print can survive a pretty good fingernail assault or furniture swiping event, but protective sprays can't.

Also tried a number of micro-porous media like the Canson Rag Photographique and Epson Enhanced Matte.  All such surfaces absorb coating like a sponge for several coats in a way that completely destroys the beauty of the image.  On Epson Cold Press, GII sort of raises the paper grain in a way that creates a lot of what looks like hazing.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: John Caldwell on May 19, 2013, 10:14:29 PM
Unless you divulge the type of work you shoot the type of printer you are using and the type of image you are selling (or giving away) the question is unanswerable...

"favorite Matte paper" for what?


The above answer is given all the time by the intelligentsia and it makes no sense to me. Why in the world can I not tell the man that my favorite paper for portraiture is usually BFK Rives; and my favorite for high contrast deep-blacks is Epson Cold Press Natural, so long as surface texture is acceptable? What is it about his question, and my answer, that is somehow inauthentic without his divulging his use? Even then, I'd need to see his images, and be inside his head as to what he's looking for in his images, to advise him further. Note he did not ask, "What paper matte paper will I like best?" For someone just starting out in a certain arena of printing, it's completely understandable that he or she may wish to have some advice about a possible jumping off point with regard to media selection. Bottom line, it comes across, to me, as a means of putting a novice in his place and it's not the community-correct approach, as I see it. Others will disagree, as is their right.

John Caldwell
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: jrsforums on May 19, 2013, 11:27:41 PM
The above answer is given all the time by the intelligentsia and it makes no sense to me. Why in the world can I not tell the man that my favorite paper for portraiture is usually BFK Rives; and my favorite for high contrast deep-blacks is Epson Cold Press Natural, so long as surface texture is acceptable? What is it about his question, and my answer, that is somehow inauthentic without his divulging his use? Even then, I'd need to see his images, and be inside his head as to what he's looking for in his images, to advise him further. Note he did not ask, "What paper matte paper will I like best?" For someone just starting out in a certain arena of printing, it's completely understandable that he or she may wish to have some advice about a possible jumping off point with regard to media selection. Bottom line, it comes across, to me, as a means of putting a novice in his place and it's not the community-correct approach, as I see it. Others will disagree, as is their right.

John Caldwell

++++1
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 19, 2013, 11:32:46 PM
The above answer is given all the time by the intelligentsia and it makes no sense to me.

The repost of his question as it relates to landscape images with pigment inks while not a lot more informative was a step in the right direction. Even his 3rd post gave more useful info in a mildly snarky manner :~)
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: texshooter on May 20, 2013, 02:03:57 AM
Why in the world can I not tell the man that my favorite paper for portraiture is usually BFK Rives...

Probably because this question has been asked and answered countless times, and Schewe would like to keep the discussions both technically advanced (so as not to bore LULA's pantheon of expert members) as well as scientifically accurate (so somebody can win the debate). Doesn't the moderator have permission to move questions to the beginner's thread? That might keep Schewe happy. Oh, by the way Schewe, I'm looking forward to your new book The Digital Print, but if you have devoted entire chapters to the subjects of why shooting Raw or with a tripod is important--or God forbid, a lengthly discussion on the rule of thirds--so help me God.... ;)

As far as favorite mattes go, I like Epson Cold Press because I find the colors and blacks to be a tad more deep from my Epson printer and because you can print on bith sides; also because I don't like warm papers. canson arches aquarelle and hahnemuhle william turner have a nice rough texture which I look for in matte papers. I just learned that Brooke Shaden, one of my fav photogs, prints on Breathing Color Velvet fine art, so I'm going to test that out next. My advice is to buy a sample pack from Epson, Hahnemuhle, Canson, and Ilford and you will find your favorite. Not that other brands are inferior, just that these  makers provide all the choices you need. IMO.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: leuallen on May 20, 2013, 03:43:52 AM
Quote
I just learned that Brooke Shaden, one of my fav photogs

John, did you catch her three day workshop on Creative Live last week. You may find that interesting.

Larry
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 20, 2013, 05:06:20 AM
Oh, by the way Schewe, I'm looking forward to your new book The Digital Print, but if you have devoted entire chapters to the subjects of why shooting Raw or with a tripod is important--or God forbid, a lengthly discussion on the rule of thirds--so help me God.... ;)

Then you'll be happy to learn some of the best images in The Digital Print book are from film scans...and while I allude to The Digital Neg book, this one is all about making really great prints regardless of where the image came from. And so far, I've not mentioned "rule of thirds" though now that you mention it...

:~)
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: aaronchan on May 20, 2013, 07:22:47 AM
For my own images, I love to use harman warmtone matte, but unfortunately, this paper has been discontinued.

For my client, I use HFA PR308 and Canson BFK the most

aaron
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 20, 2013, 09:32:48 AM
I appreciate those that have defended my post, I'm still at a loss why such a negative reaction? If this were a Porsche forum and I asked what's your favorite track tire? I think most would chime in with there favorite. I was not wrong to post the question and it was not "abusing the community" in any way.  But every one should be free to express their opinion until it becomes abusive. Chris as a moderator what do you think?
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JohnBrew on May 20, 2013, 09:48:59 AM
Totally with you on this one, Marc. Maybe Jeff just got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ;D.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 20, 2013, 11:32:26 AM
Well so far so good lots of positive answers and I'm putting together a list of papers to try out
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 20, 2013, 11:41:22 AM
Prhaps you already know, but never the less: Check the spectrumviz.jar tool of Ernst Dinkla. it helps a bunch to narrow down the choice as there are only a few manufacturers, but many labels. Another good check is aaron dygart website for ink hanling of quite a few papers.
Both have contributed extensively to this forum.
 
Bythe way, what printer do you use?

I've spent some time with the spectrumviz.jar tool not 100% sure I'm understanding it correctly, the opacity seems straight forward but I interpret a flat "spectral response" is a good thing like a flat "amplitude response" in audio? that as the frequency varies the whiteness (reflectivity) of the paper stays constant? Is this a correct interpretation? Since the Proofing papers are very linear their color accuracy should be quite good and profiles would be less aggressive in their corrections? So is it correct to conclude that say for a Baryta paper the one with the most linear response would be more accurate?
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on May 20, 2013, 12:55:10 PM
A high reflectance over the entire visual range is preferred as it creates the purest white to print on. But that is just one aspect of an inkjet paper. The other factors are the ink amount a paper coating can absorb without bleeding so no detail loss happens. The two properties should deliver a wide gamut but that also depends on the coloring strength of the inkjet ink itself.

SpectrumViz only describes the reflectance characteristics of the paper. I intend to add the Dmax of black inks (three or four brands) to the data. That should give a reasonable impression of the coating's absorption quality.

Your reference to proof papers is right, Epson quotes the good gamut of its Proofing White Semi-Matte in the ads for the x900 wide format printers range. They couldn't select a better one in my opinion. It is a slightly warm paper though.

Ernst, on the lei getypt.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 20, 2013, 12:57:48 PM
I appreciate those that have defended my post, I'm still at a loss why such a negative reaction? If this were a Porsche forum and I asked what's your favorite track tire? I think most would chime in with there favorite. I was not wrong to post the question and it was not "abusing the community" in any way.  But every one should be free to express their opinion until it becomes abusive. Chris as a moderator what do you think?

Not for nothing, but I just reread my initial response to you to see what horrible and nasty things I said to you....but wait, I didn't write anything horrible and nasty. If anything it was you who got their panties in a bunch...
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: BarbaraArmstrong on May 20, 2013, 01:00:27 PM
Marc, your response to all this has been exemplary.  I myself could not understand a rationale for the onslaught.  In fact, I refrained from participating on L-L for a long time before my first post out of concern that I would somehow trigger a barrage such as you just underwent.  Believe me, this is not a problem that you should consider your problem.  I am not a "newbie," and I was quite pleased to see this thread when it went up.  This question has been asked in the past, but the answers continue to be different over time as new papers come to market and more people have experience with them.  Luminous-Landscape is at its best when information like this is shared.  --Barbara
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Shark_II on May 20, 2013, 03:20:06 PM
Ours is LexJet Premium Archival Matte.  Very nice surface, very good blacks with our inksets, nice gamut.

We use a LOT of it and it has the outstanding quality of being exactly the same from one lot to another.  Consistency means a LOT in a production environment.  Also, no worries about paper dandruff (which drives me frigging insane) as with some other papers (especially Epson products).

Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: jrsforums on May 20, 2013, 05:44:26 PM
Not for nothing, but I just reread my initial response to you to see what horrible and nasty things I said to you....but wait, I didn't write anything horrible and nasty. If anything it was you who got their panties in a bunch...

quite uncalled for....if not vicious
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Mark Lindquist on May 20, 2013, 08:07:35 PM
Why not just forgo the drama?  Big deal - everyone is entitled to their opinions.  A professional often gets bored with this kind of stuff and sometimes can't help but comment in a way that seems controversial.  If anything, what the big guy said was a little rude, ok maybe rude, ok maybe a lot rude, depending on your sensitivity, but again, so what?

If you ask me he's just having some fun, or like another poster said, got up on the wrong side of the bed or whatever and just couldn't take the ambiguity of the question which is often asked without much thought behind it.  So perhaps his reaction was knee-jerk response.  Isn't he allowed to be human as well?

Take it easy, let it go, move on and glean good information from those who are answering the OP's question.

Personally, I am learning from the thread, and not just about what might piss Jeff off, LOL... at least the OP didn't ask:  "What's your favorite PS version", or who's your favorite photographer "rock star", or "Do you use floor finish to finish your canvasses, and if so, which is your favorite"?  heh heh...

Try a little humor!

Mark

PS my answers would be: None, none, none...
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: jrsforums on May 20, 2013, 10:19:51 PM
Why not just forgo the drama?  Big deal - everyone is entitled to their opinions.  A professional often gets bored with this kind of stuff and sometimes can't help but comment in a way that seems controversial.  If anything, what the big guy said was a little rude, ok maybe rude, ok maybe a lot rude, depending on your sensitivity, but again, so what?

If you ask me he's just having some fun, or like another poster said, got up on the wrong side of the bed or whatever and just couldn't take the ambiguity of the question which is often asked without much thought behind it.  So perhaps his reaction was knee-jerk response.  Isn't he allowed to be human as well?

Take it easy, let it go, move on and glean good information from those who are answering the OP's question.

Personally, I am learning from the thread, and not just about what might piss Jeff off, LOL... at least the OP didn't ask:  "What's your favorite PS version", or who's your favorite photographer "rock star", or "Do you use floor finish to finish your canvasses, and if so, which is your favorite"?  heh heh...

Try a little humor!

Mark

PS my answers would be: None, none, none...

Mark, I would readily agree with you....but for the consistency of the "rude" comments.

We all can have a bad day...or even series of bad days....but this is behavior is not that.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: ehackett on May 21, 2013, 12:47:13 AM
This thread inspired me to order a couple of boxes of samples so I can discover my favorite.  It seems I should have one.....  So thanks to all for initiating and sustaining an interesting conversation.  Writing this reminded me that I got very nice results printing b&w white on cream-colored watercolor paper.  Please don't laugh: the assignment came from my wife, who wanted me to print photos of 2 of the CA missions to look like etchings we'd bought of two other missions.  Sorry this doesn't come to a crisp prescription, but it was an odd sort of fun to guess and try and adjust till we got good results...on matte paper that looked like the etching.  What worse is that there are many more missions to photograph...just did San Xavier del Bac in Tucson.....

Best wishes,

Ed
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Schewe on May 21, 2013, 01:52:48 AM
This thread inspired me to order a couple of boxes of samples so I can discover my favorite.

Exactly...it's useful if you do your own testing on your own images and make a decision for yourself...

Now admittedly, the OP seems to live in the middle of nowhere (which he didn't mention in his OP) with little easy access to a variety of sample papers (also something that might have been useful to mention) so he was looking for help and guidance (which again, would have been useful to mention-which he finally did).

But the original post he made came off as a shoot from the hip, tell me what to do cause I have no friggin' clue. It belonged more on DPReview than on LuLa (which is entirely my point of view based on answering this sort of crap for years, over and over).
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on May 21, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
The other resource to look at in addition to Ernst's database of paper spectral responses is the Aardenburg database of fade testing.  The poor fading results of Museo Portfolio Rag (an otherwise outstanding paper) made me reconsider using it as a general matte paper.  I do like the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth which although having some OBA content has been standing up quite well in testing.  I worked with Mark to do a bunch of samples using various toning from the Epson ABW print driver and this paper as well.  The only downside with it is there is pronounced curling of large sheets (13x19) and one has to be make sure to decurl the corners prior to printing (in my case an Epson 3880) to avoid head strikes.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: hugowolf on May 21, 2013, 11:07:51 AM
I've spent some time with the spectrumviz.jar tool not 100% sure I'm understanding it correctly, the opacity seems straight forward but I interpret a flat "spectral response" is a good thing like a flat "amplitude response" in audio? that as the frequency varies the whiteness (reflectivity) of the paper stays constant? Is this a correct interpretation? Since the Proofing papers are very linear their color accuracy should be quite good and profiles would be less aggressive in their corrections? So is it correct to conclude that say for a Baryta paper the one with the most linear response would be more accurate?

Linear would be good, and even horizontal in some cases. But once you have more than one paper selected, the graphs are more relative than absolute. For example, try having the four base materials (Paper Components) showing – baryta should look linear and horizontal. Then try looking at baryta by itself.

The plots can be used to compare papers for warmth. Warmer papers will drop off at the blue end, whiter papers: not so much. You can also compare papers to see if they appear to be the same paper sold under different names or brands – look at the metallic’s, for example, many of them appear to be the same paper.

The plots are also useful for estimating the OBA (FBA) content. Papers with OBA content will have a spike around the 440 nm point, ‘natural’ papers will not. If you look at the FBA absorbance – omission plot, you will see how that would be.

Brian A
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JRSmit on May 21, 2013, 05:01:58 PM
I've spent some time with the spectrumviz.jar tool not 100% sure I'm understanding it correctly, the opacity seems straight forward but I interpret a flat "spectral response" is a good thing like a flat "amplitude response" in audio? that as the frequency varies the whiteness (reflectivity) of the paper stays constant? Is this a correct interpretation? Since the Proofing papers are very linear their color accuracy should be quite good and profiles would be less aggressive in their corrections? So is it correct to conclude that say for a Baryta paper the one with the most linear response would be more accurate?
Marc
Spectrumviz gives an idea on the "white" aspect of the paper the graph together with the reflectance and Lab readouts how white the white is. Also the similarities between different labels of paper, there are only a few real manufacturers. But the whiteness of the paper is just one aspect, the ink absorption capacity is another. Aaron Dygart has published some nice tests on this. The color gamut should be added, including the Dmax.
Matte fine art papers are quite limited if you just look at the numbers and the graphs. Yet a print can give a very special experience. So it is not just numbers.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: MHMG on May 21, 2013, 05:27:45 PM
Spectrumviz gives an idea on the "white" aspect of the paper the graph together with the reflectance and Lab readouts how white the white is. Also the similarities between different labels of paper, there are only a few real manufacturers. But the whiteness of the paper is just one aspect, the ink absorption capacity is another. Aaron Dygart has published some nice tests on this. The color gamut should be added, including the Dmax.
Matte fine art papers are quite limited if you just look at the numbers and the graphs. Yet a print can give a very special experience. So it is not just numbers.

A good part of my reasoning with the Aardenburg "crowd sourced" model of light fade testing was to learn what end users were actually achieving in routine printing practice. Filter the AaI&A database on a particular paper and you may find real world variations in dmax, initial print quality, etc. even for a specific printer and ink choice. The tests document what got submitted by endusers for testing and how the initial print values and final print values hold up at various light exposure doses. IMHO, looking at population statistics is the only way to figure out what the typical end user result is likely to be for some of these image quality variables. "Best ever" findings are helpful, but not indicative of what typical endusers experience. My only frustration is that I don't have a big enough test results database. It needs to grow even more, and for that I need more help from the printmaking community.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on May 21, 2013, 08:39:31 PM
Having a background in audio it is interesting that color science plots amplitude vs wavelength not amplitude vs frequency so "the bass is on the right and the treble is on the left" so to speak. Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: texshooter on May 22, 2013, 01:42:14 AM
Interestingly, sharpness can be thought of as well in frequency terms...

http://sean-blog.twicebakedphoto.com/2010/08/visual-frequencies.html

Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JRSmit on May 22, 2013, 01:49:51 AM
Mark, my apologies for not mentioning your outstanding work as well. You are completely right.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on June 01, 2013, 10:34:58 PM
Found a beautiful paper MOAB Somerset Museum Rag
I searched  Ernst Dinkla's list for papers with relatively flat spectral responses (thanks Ernst!)
Bought a few samplers and fell in love with this paper great feel, weight and texture
Oh yea details and color are superb for a matte paper
I appreciate all the positive inputs
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: IWC Doppel on June 05, 2013, 06:57:13 PM
I only print with Matt and for B&W mostly I love:

HFA Museum Etching (textured B&W)
HFA Photo Rag 308 (Smooth B&W and colour)
Epson cold Press Natural (textured B&W and colour)
Mueso Max (colour)
Fotospeed Nat text (A very respectable cheaper option)

Alos like HFA German Etching, William Turner and a number of the Canson papers
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: BobDavid on June 07, 2013, 11:30:59 AM
Schewe: why are you so often grumpy/cranky? A little patience goes a long way. Instead of snapping at people that post general or unsophisticated questions, take the opportunity to be a benevolent mentor. Everybody feels better and a Socratic dialog has a better chance to ensue. ... Just 'sayin.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: texshooter on June 08, 2013, 12:43:26 AM
What's your favorite ink color on your favorite matte paper?
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on June 08, 2013, 04:07:44 AM
What's your favorite ink color on your favorite matte paper?
White! :) Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: mshea on June 08, 2013, 11:19:59 AM
I've stuck with Hahnemuhle Ultra Smooth over the past few years, favoring the detail and relatively high white point. Most of the time I'm happy with the slightly warmish tone, but is there anything out there that's whiter and without OBAs (Hahn indicates "moderate" OBA) with close to the same smoothness?

Thanks,
Merrill
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: marcmccalmont on June 08, 2013, 12:38:41 PM
I've stuck with Hahnemuhle Ultra Smooth over the past few years, favoring the detail and relatively high white point. Most of the time I'm happy with the slightly warmish tone, but is there anything out there that's whiter and without OBAs (Hahn indicates "moderate" OBA) with close to the same smoothness?

Thanks,
Merrill
Haven't tried it but Innova Smooth Cotton High White 100% Cotton 315gsm IFA 14 looks like one worth trying
Marc
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: mshea on June 08, 2013, 02:11:13 PM
I read (on dpreview, I think) that some people had trouble with the Innova with paper feeding; torn edges, ruined corners. And as others have mentioned, Ultra Smooth does have curling problems. Decurling to run it through the sheet feeder on my 3880 can be a major hassle. But the results are worth it.

Merrill
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: JRSmit on June 08, 2013, 02:45:30 PM
I am  using innova ifa11 and ifa14  both sheet and roll and no problems on epson 4900.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Ian99 on June 08, 2013, 07:32:55 PM
“What’s your favorite Matte paper?”

Well it depends on the application and who is in charge of the process.
A case in point  --- a non-profit group wanted me to do an initial run of 1,000 greeting cards.

I had some Epson Enhanced Matte, which did not excite me in the least, so I showed them a sample plus the same image on 3 other good papers.

Guess what !! 3 out of 3 chose the Epson EM without any consideration to cost. Now I have to buy some more of the stuff.

Remember it is the client who is in control, so long as they pay.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: tjv on June 09, 2013, 06:48:18 AM
I'm a big fan of MOAB Entrada Natural 300gsm. I buy it in rolls to use on Epson 7600 and 7800 printers and made a profile myself using a Colormunki.
I print colour, a mixture of landscapes and portraits, from scanned 4x5" and 6x7cm negatives. I love the white point of the paper and it seems to hold the ink very well compared to the more expensive rag papers. My alternative paper would be the standard Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm, but I prefer the MOAB because it's double sided an flattens off the roll easier as a consequence – I never print on the reverse. I'd also say that I like the bright white version, but can't in all conscience use it when selling to museums and collectors because of the optical brighteners.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: NancyP on June 10, 2013, 06:02:36 PM
Firstly, thanks to all who wrote paper product reviews for LuLa. This is a worthy topic, although the lack of printer model limits the answers somewhat. I am a printing newbie - Epson Premium Photo Luster is the one and only paper I have used. I am looking forward to testing sessions of 3880 vs Epson, Ilford Galerie, Ilford Mono Silk, and Hahnemuhle sample packs (I went wild at the photo store this weekend ;)  ). I am also looking at converting a Epson 1400 to monochrome piezography, so that's another batch of testing sessions. I was pleased to note at my local photography store a photo swatch book of Canon Pixma Pro printer and a large variety of papers. Even though the printer is a different brand, the papers' color and texture are evaluable.

Awaiting my pre-ordered Schewe Digital Print book...
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: kholt on April 17, 2014, 10:55:56 PM
I just came across this thread.  Wow....  I just received a copy of Schewe's book "The Digital Negative" from Amazon this morning coincidently.  After seeing his belligerent response and the FU attitude he displayed here I put the unopened box back in the mailbox "return to sender".  I like to think my money goes to nice people.  With an attitude like he has displayed I've lost all interest in what he has to say and will find another book instead. 

Keith
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Gary Damaskos on April 18, 2014, 09:53:22 AM
If you thought that this was bad social behavior you should go over to "how is that subscription service to adobe working out". There is plenty of ego driven bad absolutely non-constructive criticisms there. Point being...some of our brightest or most knowledgeable just have bouts of  bad behavior in these forums at times. Personally I am happy to see others push back nicely like I see in this thread against this behavior. "Be the change you want to see!" None of us are perfect / we all can benefit from constructive criticism / maybe kinda new age but a little love being present in there actually is a sign of a thoughtful person giving feedback that may actually be accepted. Meanness in criticism = less likely to be heard and with good reason.
Done
Gary
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: RachelleK on April 18, 2014, 10:06:04 AM
I just came across this thread.  Wow....  I just received a copy of Schewe's book "The Digital Negative" from Amazon this morning coincidently.  After seeing his belligerent response and the FU attitude he displayed here I put the unopened box back in the mailbox "return to sender".  I like to think my money goes to nice people.  With an attitude like he has displayed I've lost all interest in what he has to say and will find another book instead. 

Keith

I think you should reconsider. I found his Digital Negative and Digital Print book two of the most helpful books in those areas.
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: kholt on April 18, 2014, 11:20:42 PM
"Meanness in criticism = less likely to be heard and with good reason. "

Wow again.  You think the simple exercise of my free will to not buy his book equals "meanness".   Now I'm thinking you are a bigger jerk as he is.  Its interesting that you criticize me for complaining about his rudeness, but you don't complain to the person being rude in the first place.  You are the reason I hate these internet forums.  I would never participate in them except once in a while there is useful information amongst all the noise and obnoxious nonsense.  I liked the original question from the OP and found it not only appropriate but useful.  I just wish people like you and Mr. Schewe would find a life and leave the rest of us alone.

Keith
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: RachelleK on April 19, 2014, 08:26:00 AM
"Meanness in criticism = less likely to be heard and with good reason. "

Wow again.  You think the simple exercise of my free will to not buy his book equals "meanness".   Now I'm thinking you are a bigger jerk as he is.  Its interesting that you criticize me for complaining about his rudeness, but you don't complain to the person being rude in the first place.  You are the reason I hate these internet forums.  I would never participate in them except once in a while there is useful information amongst all the noise and obnoxious nonsense.  I liked the original question from the OP and found it not only appropriate but useful.  I just wish people like you and Mr. Schewe would find a life and leave the rest of us alone.

Keith


I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Gary was referring to you. I think what he was saying is that when a person introduces meanness into criticism (as some people in this forum do) people may ignore the point of the criticism.  He was writing that these other people should temper their language -- not your decision to buy Schewe's books.  Kind of agreeing with you about what goes on with these forums sometimes.

R
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Gary Damaskos on April 19, 2014, 11:26:16 AM
Thank you RachelleK -
"I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Gary was referring to you. In think what he was saying is that when a person introduces meanness into criticism (as some people in this forum do) people may ignore the point of the criticism.  He was writing that these other people should temper their language -- not your decision to buy Schewe's books.  Kind of agreeing with you about what goes on with these forums sometimes."

you describe what I believed I was doing. Kholt got something I did not intend, didn't even think could be taken that way, and prefer not to be taken that way.
Gary
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: kholt on April 19, 2014, 02:43:17 PM
Fair enough.  My apologies.

Keith
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Peter Le on April 19, 2014, 09:23:38 PM
       Quite understandable Keith....... this is the result of the forum God's attacks. Put everyone on edge and thinking everyone is attacking each other. No way for a great Forum like this one to be.... shame. But only Michael can change this......
Title: Re: What's your favorite Matte Paper?
Post by: Gary Damaskos on April 19, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
      Quite understandable Keith....... this is the result of the forum God's attacks. Put everyone on edge and thinking everyone is attacking each other. No way for a great Forum like this one to be.... shame. But only Michael can change this......

Please Peter Le - please there is another possible way. People, grounded ones please (very important - to NOT exhibit the behavior one wants to see less of) - speak up like just happened several times in this thread. While not perfect, it has possibilities of eventually doing something beneficial (creating a more open environment, having a better interchange about a subject that has a higher probability of being of use to a greater number of folks, and a more co-operative world. Ok the last one is a little over the top. Maybe a more cooperative forum!!
Cheers
Gary