Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: henrikfoto on May 11, 2013, 06:38:50 pm

Title: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: henrikfoto on May 11, 2013, 06:38:50 pm
Any rumors?
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: leeonmaui on May 11, 2013, 06:47:25 pm
who cares!
you can check on "canon Rumors" they always publish stuff like that...
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Paul2660 on May 11, 2013, 06:49:01 pm
Late 3rd and most of 4th quarter 2012 the rumor was the 3Dx somewhere between 30 and 40mp full frame.   Many reported seeing it in the field on tests.  

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 07:47:13 pm
Perhaps if you post this in one of the other forums, you might get an answer. This is after all for MFD. I doubt Canon will get into MFD. They will simply stick to 35mm.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: sgilbert on May 11, 2013, 09:44:30 pm
"This is after all for MFD."   :)
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Emilmedia on May 12, 2013, 10:38:49 am
Well it's kind of mf related.  And none of the other forums are quite so active. With Canon I'm not going for more MP as a main wish. Dynamic range and better AF.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 12, 2013, 10:49:50 am
Wait and see...


Any rumors?
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 12, 2013, 01:21:02 pm
Well it's kind of mf related.  And none of the other forums are quite so active. With Canon I'm not going for more MP as a main wish. Dynamic range and better AF.

While it is a different discussion category for some it is quite a related subject especially with the direction Canon is taking.
With the 5DII to 5DIII udgrade Canon chose to beef up autofocus and add uncompressed video (though they disabled it at first
to not encroach on their video products. They chose to stay with a 22MP sensor as they felt the were well positioned and that 22MP exceeds what most people need. This has some relavance to low end MF.

I asked a Canon employee (through an interpreter) why the new 24-70 zoom was so expensive and if they were not pricing themselves
out of the market. His answer was that it's more about meeting the quality of their new sensor that will have nothing to do with current designs.
He also added that motion picture products were driving this move too.

It's what they are up to now that has more relavance. Canon is working on three layer sensor technology.
IT is doing so both for the photo field and in particular the video field.
While this is still different from MF it will take the quality level of Canon much higher with larger photosites for the same resolution,
no color moire and significantly better Black and white conversion of certain subjects. Photosites would actually be as large as or larger than some MF backs.
Putting such a sensor behind the better Canon lenses as well as Canon's excellent TS lenses makes for a very compelling alternative or sidekick to
MF dslr and some applications of tech cameras.

Due to the low resolution of motion cine footage and the difficulty of retouching in post moire is a big issue.
Due to the significantly higher prices that motion picture cameras can be sold at this is driving the next moves
at both Nikon/Sony as well as Canon.

Canon and Sony/Nikon's next move in sensors will be quite interesting.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Doug Peterson on May 12, 2013, 03:10:39 pm
It's what they are up to now that has more relavance. Canon is working on three layer sensor technology.
IT is doing so both for the photo field and in particular the video field.
While this is still different from MF it will take the quality level of Canon much higher with larger photosites for the same resolution,
no color moire and significantly better Black and white conversion of certain subjects. Photosites would actually be as large as or larger than some MF backs.
Putting such a sensor behind the better Canon lenses as well as Canon's excellent TS lenses makes for a very compelling alternative or sidekick to MF dslr and some applications of tech cameras.

Due to the low resolution of motion cine footage and the difficulty of retouching in post moire is a big issue.
Due to the significantly higher prices that motion picture cameras can be sold at this is driving the next moves
at both Nikon/Sony as well as Canon.

Canon and Sony/Nikon's next move in sensors will be quite interesting.

So you're predicting that the next flagship camera will use Fovean or similar layer-transparent non-Bayer sensor?

I love the confidence. Though my bet would be 10:1 against this possibilty.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 12, 2013, 04:25:58 pm
....... that the next flagship camera will use Fovean or similar layer-transparent non-Bayer sensor?

I love the confidence. Though my bet would be 10:1 against this possibilty.

Where did I say that? However your knee jerk defensive action says a lot.....

I'm not predicting anything in particular, but history shows that Canon and Nikon tend to jump ahead of each  other in turns.

Both Canon and Nikon are getting heavily involved in  Motion imaging where 3 layer sensors are far more important. Both have opened offices in the heart of Hollywood.

Both Canon and Sony have files multilayer sensor patents, and neither are based on the Sigma sensor.

(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj524/picrumors/Bildschirmfoto2012-12-13um112144.png)

(http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011_129785_fig01.png)

Both these patents were files quite a time ago and both could be getting ripe for going into production.

The patents can be looked up.

Sony has been investing billions in it's sensor manufacturing facilities.

Stacked C-mos with on board processing combined with 3 layer non bayer array offer great IQ promise as well as speed that the Sigma sensor does not offer.

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: henrikfoto on May 12, 2013, 04:54:53 pm
Doug is very fast to jump on Fred.
Best friends?
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: RVB on May 12, 2013, 04:58:46 pm
Anything written about the new high res canon will be just a rumor,nothing more but most of the rumors suggest a completely new sensor fabrication process and the body will be released in 2014.. A pal of mine has worked in canon for 20yrs and he thinks this "rumor" is on the money...
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: eronald on May 12, 2013, 05:01:10 pm
My younger self knew about designing ICs.

It's a technology, it moves by small steps.

Brand C and N could buy into Sigma's technology, but if they want to roll their own they will have to pay their dues and cycle it a couple of times, give it decent exposure to the real world, before baby gets a job he needs to crawl and learn to walk.  

Edmund

Where did I say that? However your knee jerk defensive action says a lot.....

I'm not predicting anything in particular, but history shows that Canon and Nikon tend to jump ahead of each  other in turns.

Both Canon and Nikon are getting heavily involved in  Motion imaging where 3 layer sensors are far more important. Both have opened offices in the heart of Hollywood.

Both Canon and Sony have files multilayer sensor patents, and neither are based on the Sigma sensor.

(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj524/picrumors/Bildschirmfoto2012-12-13um112144.png)

[img]http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011_129785_fig01.png/img]

Both these patents were files quite a time ago and both could be getting ripe for going into production.

The patents can be looked up.

Sony has been investing billions in it's sensor manufacturing facilities.

Stacked C-mos with on board processing combined with 3 layer non bayer array offer great IQ promise as well as speed that the Sigma sensor does not offer.


Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Ken R on May 12, 2013, 09:58:59 pm
I think it's true that Canon will focus a lot of it's effort in the digital video / cinema field.

If I were to speculate I think a LOT of the advancement is going to be in in-camera sensor data processing. 4k video is going to become the standard and i'm sure Canon wants a more affordable 4K camera than their 1Dc offering. 8k video is going to be the new high end. So Canon might offer a camera that does 8k stills (if its a 2:3 sensor then thats about a 40MP camera) with a 4K video mode.

Im pretty sure Bayer sensors are here to stay for a while. We will see continued improvements in debayering algorithms and downsampling for video.

When will the new Canon emerge? I would bet on about 12-18 months.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: K.C. on May 12, 2013, 11:03:45 pm
Doug is very fast to jump on Fred.
Best friends?

Fred's inherent warmth and open minded attitude tends to foster lots of friendships. :o
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: torger on May 13, 2013, 01:43:27 am
My guess is that Canon will continue to get stronger in video, but will not in near-term manage to get the same still image quality as the Sony sensors. Being great at video and high ISO is not the same as being great at base ISO still images, which is where the MF interest resides. I don't think the first high megapixel camera, which will come eventually, will for example have as good dynamic range as the D800. Canon has recently produced sensors with new technology, like in their 6D and their entry-level EOS-700D, and nothing in those sensors indicate that Canon is able to compete concerning base ISO image quality. In fact, they show quite mediocre quality, that's why MF salespersons like to use Canon as the example of what DSLRs can do in terms of base ISO image quality. It's nicer to compare an IQ160 with a 5Dmk3 than a D800E :)

My DSLR system is a Canon, and I do hope to see better base ISO image quality eventually, but I don't think it will happen for some years to come. I hope to be proven wrong though.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 13, 2013, 03:19:15 am
My guess is that Canon will continue to get stronger in video, but will not in near-term m


Since this section has been the d800 forum for some time, I guess it's fitting that it's now the Canon forum.  Well why not add the 4/3's forum to the heading.

I'm serious.

Here's the thing about all of these format discussions.

Everybody talks about cameras like what was done before is the standard we are working towards. 

Kind of like film cameras that shoot digital.   

Not what we could do in the future, or better put, not what we could do that I just can't or haven't been able to shoot before.

Kind of like we're back 10 years ago when everybody switched from digital to film and kept arguing that one brand was better than the other.

My 1dx for stills focuses very well, is very sharp, produces a good file (not great but good), has great solid tethering with ethernet but honestly there is very little I do with it today I didn't do with my original 1ds a long time ago.

By that I don't mean more megapixels or face detection, or faster tethering, or Nikon is better than Phase, Phase is better than Leica, but real useful change.

Somewhere on another thread someone said 35mm has come leaps and bounds.  Well I'm not too sure.  Yes, autofocus is better, color on some cameras easier to manage, frame rates a little faster, depending on camera, lcds a whole lot better, but regardless these are mostly  improvements on platforms from 10 years ago.

If you tether the nikon the lcd blanks out, run an hdmi out cord to it to record  and you have to remove the cf card, try to autofocus shooting motion and you better be locked down shooting the washington monument. 

Canon isn't much different, though they did come out with a line of motion cameras, but still in the film camera mindset.  Buy PL or Canon mounts but there not interchangeable.  Try to get a real 4:2:2 prorezz file out of them ready for real world proxy edit, or for that matter just real world edit and you have to spend hours transcoding.

I just think all of this is old think and protecting territory.

If you want to see real camera innovation look at the two latest 4/3's cameras from Panasonic and Olympus.  Unlike their big brothers they actually autofocus shooting motion and do it at exactly what your aiming at.   In fact the panasonic with just a touch of the screen will rack focus in a beautiful smooth style.

The Panasonic for motion imagery in every tests comes out inches away from the more costly RED and Arri.   It has real i.s. lenses, touch screen focus, articulating screens, sound in and out and sells for about the price of one good Nikon Lens.

The Olympus may be small, but the handing is first rate, the mbps is low but the in camera stabilization looks like a 10 year steadicam operator was working it and it shoots a very nice still file in 4:2, 2:3 or 16x9 format with one of the best right angle grips of any camera maker.

They both focus fast, track well, (not perfect but well) and are an inch away from being as good as any Nikon or Canon still camera, the panasonic better than most digital cinema cameras except the RED, Arri and Sony F35 and damn close to those if handled properly.

For the price of one of my 1dx bodies, I can buy one of these 4/s's systems with a complete lens set, (actually less priced).  For the price of one top grade medium format still system, or RED motion system, I can buy two cases of these cameras.

I'm not pushing any camera, because I own RED's Nikons, Phase, Canons, Panasonic, Sony's and a Leica.  I'm just saying if I take every innovation from all of my dedicated professional cameras and combine them, they still don't meet the same usefulness of the Pany or Olympus, except in actual file detail and honestly in real world use, they 4/3's are getting close for most media.

Don't misunderstand I enjoy my Phase backs, kind of enjoy the Canon 1dxes, like the Leica and find the RED's simply amazing for the quality they produce at the price, but none of them combined has the real world use of the two 4/3's cameras I've mentioned.

Also don't misunderstand me.  I don't think the sky is falling, because it's not.  It's just our industry has changed, which is not surprising as the professional making images for money business is only a few generations old so change is a given.

And I'm not the only one to notice it.  In the last 10 days I've been in two camera stores.  One mega store on the coast, on smaller store in the middle of the country.

At the megastore the line is two deep around the hybrid and motion camera accessory area.   Zacuto products of every type are flying out the door.  At the smaller store, that two years ago ONLY sold Canons, Nikons and a few medium formats, they now have about 35% of their shelf space dedicated to sliders, friction heads, senihauser mics, radio lavs, hdmi screens and every kind of gizmos, wire and battery charger available.  They're both selling the little Panasonic and Olympus cameras as fast as they come in.

Maybe they're selling the 4/3 cameras  to cat photographers, maybe this is just a straw poll and not worth mentioning, but if I was in the camera making biz, I'd look around and decide what my next move would be and it wouldn't be a still camera with some half baked movie function feature.  It's will be a world beater at the lowest price possible, and/or if price is jacked high, they would do things that none of us can dream of.

Can you imagine the still quality of a Phase of Hasselblad, the iso of a 1dx, the true adjustable autofocus of touch screen, the sound characteristics of a Sony all with weatherproof i.s.?

IMO

BC

(sorry about the 4/3's thing . . .  but it seems everything here is now fair game).

(http://www.spotsinthebox.com/JR_location_2013.jpg)
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: torger on May 13, 2013, 04:40:27 am
I don't think 4/3 really has the potential currently. At some point sensor size becomes too small to capture enough photons to be up there. A 24x36mm sensor on the other hand reaches sufficiently high (in my opinion). This could change with future sensor technology (deeper wells in smaller pixels), but we're not seeing it today. So in terms of base ISO image quality 4/3 cannot compete the same way as a full-frame DSLR can. Therefore I follow DSLR developments with great excitement, but not so interested in smaller formats.

Lens quality is another issue, with smaller formats manufacturing precision needs to be higher to crank in the same amount of resolution over the frame. It seems like MFD has the edge here currently, and I'm not so sure that it can change in the near-term. Resolution is not all, but as a tech camera shooter high resolution and sharp distortion-free lenses capable of movements is indeed a main attraction.

I think my DSLR system is much closer to compete with my MF system for landscape photography than any 4/3 system can, and I find developments in the DSLR world more interesting in relation to my MF system than the smaller formats. Say if Canon would come out with a 40 megapixel camera with D800E's pixel quality, release new versions of the TS-E 45 and 90 (also rumoured), and someone makes a good TS at 35mm (why is noone doing that?!), then my Linhof/Leaf system would get a very very tough competitor in terms of my shooting style (hiking landscape photography). Image quality is not the sole parameter for me, also price, compositional flexibility, ease of use and how fun it is to use is important to me.

What I think will save me in MFD anyway is resolution (and the fun of using something different!). I think the sweetpoint is 50-60 sharp megapixels, and I don't really see any DSLR lenses (even the good ones) fully capable of that.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: MrSmith on May 13, 2013, 05:23:34 am
Cooter do you have your own physio/chiropractor for your teams lower back issues?

One thing I don't miss about MFD is the volume of gear to move around. Now it's all in a roller case with elinchrom rangers and no back-ache.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: jerome_m on May 13, 2013, 07:43:53 am
If you want to see real camera innovation look at the two latest 4/3's cameras from Panasonic and Olympus.  Unlike their big brothers they actually autofocus shooting motion and do it at exactly what your aiming at.   In fact the panasonic with just a touch of the screen will rack focus in a beautiful smooth style.

Just as a side note: home camcorders have had working AF for the past 15 years. I should be easier with smaller sensors: there is more DOF and the lens is smaller, meaning there is less mass to move around. It should therefore not be surprising that µ4/3, which has the smaller sensor, also has the best AF.


And I'm not the only one to notice it.  In the last 10 days I've been in two camera stores.  One mega store on the coast, on smaller store in the middle of the country.

At the megastore the line is two deep around the hybrid and motion camera accessory area. Zacuto products of every type are flying out the door.  At the smaller store, that two years ago ONLY sold Canons, Nikons and a few medium formats, they now have about 35% of their shelf space dedicated to sliders, friction heads, senihauser mics, radio lavs, hdmi screens and every kind of gizmos, wire and battery charger available.  They're both selling the little Panasonic and Olympus cameras as fast as they come in.

I can confirm that the same is true where I live (Germany). Not only the stores, but I regularly meet young film crews and they have been using DSLRs, usually Canon 5D2, for the past years as well. TV crews still use shoulder worn camcorders, though. Extensive film crews (the one who came with 4 lorries and a 180 KW diesel generator in my home street) use pro video cams on a dolly.

Large sensor - low budget moviemaking appears to be all the rage at the moment indeed. But I am not sure what it means for photographers: photography and movies are very different mediums with very different needs.

Besides, this is only one aspect of the change affecting photography. The other end is that there are more pictures taken on an iPhone than on any other camera, that the main photo publisher on the planet is probably Facebook, that, today, Wikipedia published an app allowing users to directly take and upload pictures to document the encyclopedia and that I see tourists filming with a tablet computer all the time.

I still don't know what this has to do with medium format, but photography is certainly changing fast.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: yaya on May 13, 2013, 10:09:45 am
(http://www.spotsinthebox.com/JR_location_2013.jpg)

I think this image belongs to the weather sealing forum as it shows an example of poor weather sealing on those cases...
Does the manual say if they are coffee resistant?
I mean skinny latte is not exactly coffee but can you imagine what that skinny latte after sitting in the sunshine and then getting poured on your cameras can do...havoc!!!
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 13, 2013, 12:44:05 pm

I still don't know what this has to do with medium format, but photography is certainly changing fast.

Nothing.  

That's the point.

On the medium format section all we talk about is Nikons and "use to be's " that wind surf, walk dogs and do pulstating gifs of other people photos.

I just thought we could talk about the smallest format rather than the largest because I'm sure tomorrow we'll be talking about deadly radio waves, how much money Hasselblad makes, or where the boxes of Phase One's lenses are printed.

BTW:  I heard Nikon boxes are printed in Singapore.  OMG, I just can't get my head around that.

Where's the Nikon rep, how much money do they save?

I deserve to know.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 13, 2013, 12:53:13 pm


I think this image belongs to the weather sealing forum as it shows an example of poor weather sealing on those cases...
Does the manual say if they are coffee resistant?
I mean skinny latte is not exactly coffee but can you imagine what that skinny latte after sitting in the sunshine and then getting poured on your cameras can do...havoc!!!

Yair,

I was walking my dog through the beautiful Swiss Alps, watching timber wolves frolic, bonding with nature and thinking of swimming nude, when I thought . . .

Isn't it funny about all this camera talk on innovation?

Leaf had wifi, touch screens 10 years ago.  Leaf is the only digital maker that actually joined up with a new camera system, added rotating sensors and tilt screens.

I can't imagine where Leaf would have gone, had not wall street shot dice with our savings and Kodak didn't decide that making photography relate products was good business.

I hope the next phase camera was consulted through you guys.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Rob C on May 13, 2013, 01:18:13 pm
Cooter, what happened to the trees in the background?

Rob C
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 01:23:40 pm
This D bloody 800 is a plague.
It's like a virus that infiltrates
In every possible thread in all
The forums ww.

The only immune entities so far
Are the motion worlds were Nikon is
Completly irrelevant. It's like a niche
Resting room where One still can
Hear the Zen fountain, far far away
From the noise and stressfull ambiances
Of graphic measurements and pixels
Peeping of dpr disciples.

Back into my Nuke nodes fengshui.
 
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 13, 2013, 01:32:26 pm
That would be the deadly radio waves.

Could be, though actually it's what happens when a third assistant shoots a Nikon file (honestly) 3 stops over and I pulled the curves down too quickly.

I fixed it for you Rob.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: yaya on May 13, 2013, 01:43:20 pm
I fixed it for you Rob.

Now just move that dangerous skinny latte away from the cameras  ;)
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come? My take...
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 13, 2013, 01:45:43 pm
Hi,

My take is that Canon is quite happy. They are pretty good at high ISOs and high ISO may matter a lot more to a lot of customers than low ISO DR. Would dey loose a lot of business to Nikon, or even Sony, they may reconsider the situation.

You have any idea about the percentage of shooters who use tripod, medium aperture and base ISO with MLU? I do, you do, we do? Still we are small part of the market.


Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 01:50:37 pm
I don't think 4/3 really has the potential currently. At some point sensor size becomes too small to capture enough photons to be up there. A 24x36mm sensor on the other hand reaches sufficiently high (in my opinion). This could change with future sensor technology (deeper wells in smaller pixels), but we're not seeing it today. So in terms of base ISO image quality 4/3 cannot compete the same way as a full-frame DSLR can. Therefore I follow DSLR developments with great excitement, but not so interested in smaller formats.

If you shoot mainly motion, this is not actually the case. In controled light, a GH2 or GH3 smokes litterally any Canikon DSLR,
and in video resolution, resolve more details than some pro camcorders gear like Sony F3.
Only when you start to jump in higher isos the Canon recuperates its advantage of a bigger sensor.
So it's good if you are in the very dark without a proper set. Cheap B series, stuff like that,
or you want a soft funky "kids" look, then Canon is great, Otherwise...
The Pana AF100 is one of the most serious affordable camcorder currently, and vastly used in motion industry. And it's m4/3 mount-sensor.

The m4/3 also allows PL mount without costly camera modification (there is no mirror) and there are cine Zeiss primes with the m4/3 mount,
in fact the m4/3 mount allows the wider range of lenses included some C-mount without vigneting, Angénieux etc etc...

Remember that Red cameras can't compeat either with the current Canon in really high-isos.
And Red One, Epic and Scarlet are far better motion equipment.
(and I would say that to some extend, they are far better still equipment too, except the lack of reso from a still point of view)

m4/3 in motion has a huge potential. Only if they make big mistakes it could become a "dead-end".
But for the moment it's far from being the case. (AF on latest model is simply in another league)

Oups...was it a MF section?
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 13, 2013, 01:59:59 pm

It's like a virus that infiltrates
In every possible thread in all
The forums ww.


Fred2,

I'm sure you've seen all or  parts of the latest Zaguto test where they compare all sorts of motion cameras, from an iphone,  mirrorless, dslrs, smaller formats to the mega expensive Sony's.

The difference between those conversations and here is nobody is trying to prove that any one person or company is wrong.

They allow one team per camera to adjust the lights, shoot the scene and compare and grade the merits of each system.

In other words work in a professional style.

The result is there is no agenda, only learning what really works in the real world and you don't hear much of my camera is better than yours bullshit.

The result is, in the movie world, usually the more you spend on the system the better the results.

There are some exceptions, but the test really isn't designed to prove any camera "wrong" or overpriced, just what every camera will do in regards to certain scenes.

But your right, there is no dee800 in this test.  

The real gems of this is to hear the working dp's interviews.  It's rarely on equipment, mostly on telling the story, how to approach a project.

That's what this section of the  forum could be.

It's not.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 02:11:29 pm

Fred,

I'm sure you've seen all or  parts of the latest Zaguto test where they compare all sorts of motion cameras, from an iphone,  mirrorless, dslrs, smaller formats to the mega expensive Sony's.

The difference between those conversations and here is nobody is trying to prove that any one person or company is wrong.

They allow one team per camera to adjust the lights, shoot the scene and compare and grade the merits of each system.

In other words work in a professional style.

The result is there is no agenda, only learning what really works in the real world and you don't hear much of my camera is better than yours bullshit.

The result is, in the movie world, usually the more you spend on the system the better the results.

There are some exceptions, but the test really isn't designed to prove any camera "wrong" or overpriced, just what every camera will do in regards to certain scenes.

But your right, there is no dee800 in this test.  

The real gems of this is to hear the working dp's interviews.  It's rarely on equipment, mostly on telling the story, how to approach a project.

That's what this section of the  forum could be.

It's not.


IMO

BC


Ah? It's been a long time since I haven't opened the Zack website.

I will have a look then. The latest I saw is when a famous cine director (can't remember who it was, it wasn't Scorcese I guess but a big fish) pointed the GH2 as it's prefered look in a blind test...it made a lot of flames within the motion forums.
People were screaming: "what? a GH2 winning the Alexas and Phantoms?...." Because if we, young indie, say that, nobody would care of it, but if it's a Scorcese, then people listen.

But you're right. Not in my intention to offend "still world" here, but I do see a very different attitude in the motion forums like the CC. People are just working,
there is no winner looser, this is better than that etc... but tech questions and tech answers. Generally very very pro. No time for games.
I don't know if that's because motion is way more demanding in terms of time-complexity etc...
but yes, I do see the same as you point. It's a totally different world that I find less infantile, lots lots of respect.
People are busy, they are working, and generaly have long hours of flight in the industry and they know that to become good at something,
one has to spend long time on it, not changing at every update, listening to marketing brands, or new tech that is not ready, because it costs too much to do that.


Now, Lu-La is IMO an incredible source of good content too, and sometimes I also think that it could have a different flavour, more respect between people who are using
different systems etc...but it seems that photography being a more
democratized world, the overall mentality is different and there is a lightness that is not happening in the motion forum I frequent like the Cow or the Avid, or even Red (well red is fanboyism
but incredibly serious in terms of tech content, just leaving the fanboyism aside).
Now, I find that Lu-La has a "human" side that is also welcome and lacking in the highly-specialized motion forums.
But totally agree on what you wrote.

 

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: MrSmith on May 13, 2013, 02:51:42 pm
"If you shoot mainly motion, this is not actually the case. In controled light, a GH2 or GH3 smokes litterally any Canikon DSLR,"

Didn't Magic lantern change that yesterday?

"That's what this section of the  forum could be."

It's still a good place to sometimes see other working photographers shots in different fields to your(our) own work which is always good to share. It's the "what f-stop did you shoot that at" questions that make me sigh instead of comments about lighting, composition and the elusive 'mood' that differentiates the pro from am.

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 02:57:16 pm


Didn't Magic lantern change that yesterday?

Yes, it did. But as hacks have also been developped for the GH2, and the Panas were, from factory, better motion implemented, the progress done by the Magic Lantern have also been done by the
Pana hackers. The latest hacks are truly amazing, they tranformed the GH2 into an INTRA device with minimum of 150 MB/s stable and much more if you want to. So in fact the gap remained because
there has been intensive hack works done in both case. The Canon has some advantages over the GH2 and vice-versa, but my point was simply to say that m4/3 is far from being a dead-end road.
It's just different and one who work a lot on a system will obtain pro results, Canon, or Panasonic, FF or m4/3 mount.
  
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: TMARK on May 13, 2013, 03:05:10 pm
Fred and Cooter,

Motion is about telling a story.  The gear is a means to an end, not an end in itself.  What matters is the story telling, and any device that helps you tell the story is fair game.  Film people are generally professionals, and professionals just need a device that allows them to tell a story.  Amatuer stills photographers can snap away and amaze their friends and family with over sharpened detail of on a leaf 4 miles away.  No need for story, just a pretty scene they happen upon.  (I'm not taking a piss on landscapers).  
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 13, 2013, 03:32:13 pm
Fred and Cooter,

Motion is about telling a story.  The gear is a means to an end, not an end in itself.  What matters is the story telling, and any device that helps you tell the story is fair game.  Film people are generally professionals, and professionals just need a device that allows them to tell a story.  Amatuer stills photographers can snap away and amaze their friends and family with over sharpened detail of on a leaf 4 miles away.  No need for story, just a pretty scene they happen upon.  (I'm not taking a piss on landscapers).  


T

Your 100% right.

We just shipped a video that received the highest client response in my career.

The client wanted a game changer for their marketing and sales.  A video that would drive the corporation from within.

Our writer took 4 passes at it, we changed concepts 3 times and I could tell we we're losing the client, or at least disappointing the client.

So I did a 14 hour day/night run at it, reviewed every note, every script, every focus group result and rewrote the script, did a scratch voice over myself, pulled stock imagery and from our libraries and cut the video as a moving storyboard or animatic.

The result, it was sold in, only a few lines changed, we went into production and 10 days later delivered.

The response was overwhelming and it will not only be used internally, but used to set the marketing direction for the company for the coming years.

I'm not patting myself on the back, because in all honesty I did this as a hail mary, as nothing else was getting approved, but i learned something big.

Every director, and dp or director/dp, producer should know the script inside and out and push back, question the motivation of each line of the story and how each line can be visualized.

That may sound simple, but for a still photographer that's not how we usually work. 

We usually make things pretty or tell a story in one frame.  With motion, as you say, it's the whole story and the visuals are there to support it, not overwhelm it.

This thought process also carries over to stills.   Rather than just take a shot list and/or layout on face value, to give a story meaning the person behind the camera, or directing the camera has to be fully immersed in the reason they are there in the first place.

I don't know about you, but how many times have you taken a "pretty picture" but in reality it had no story, no reason other than it might show the clothes, the expression or the face.

I've been doing motion for a while and maybe I'm not too smart, but I've finally realized that the story must be understood and must make sense, whether it's stills, motion or multimedia.

Anything else and the viewer just goes to sleep.

Now equipment does play a role because as you know production can be expensive.  I love the RED's, hate the process of supports, flags, sliders, dollys, sound and all the grip and crew that goes with it.

Seriously I am looking at buying a few of the new 4/3's cameras for an upcoming project, not as b cams, not as crash cams, but as a way to get to the story quickly, keep it moving and not flat footed and not use so much equipment that the story is overwhelmed by the technique.

In other words I'd love to see all those cases disappear and instead have three cameras around my neck and one set of led panels.

At least I say that today.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 04:06:15 pm

Seriously I am looking at buying a few of the new 4/3's cameras for an upcoming project, not as b cams, not as crash cams, but as a way to get to the story quickly, keep it moving and not flat footed and not use so much equipment that the story is overwhelmed by the technique.

I think, Knowing your style, that you will extract a lot from those micro gear. Size reduction is the future.
On the clients seriousness required, you have already the Reds and all the Peli cases circus to cover the studio image in front of the client, wich is important also, let's face it.
So 1 or 2 extra Cams like the Panas will not destroy the image and more likely add some dynamic high quality imagery that are usable in post for your stories. At least for HD,
and Pana, like Canikon, will come to Raw video soon and 4-5K.

Really, the famous director's comment on the GH2 image output (i remember, it was Francis Ford Coppola) was not taking into consideration that it was a "consummer" tool, the look acheived convinced him.
And the image was projected in proper theater, not on computer screen.
If an experienced director that have spend his life doing feature films, used to watch footage on theater from film age, loved the GH2 look, it tells something.
It's not going of course to replace a Red, but IMO it tells that the cam is very capable.

In fact, the only concern that is to take into consideration, is that is not military built like proper cine gear, and IMO that would be the only reason to prevent top cine crew for using them
for serious stuff because at those costs, failure ain't an option. (but after all, don't they use 5D2 in productions also? and the 5D2 is far from being a tank like the 1d)
But there is a simple way to prevent possible failures on those non-pro cine gear: buy many. At those prices, if one or 2 unit failed, there is always another unit ready.
And none of the GH2 used on set in my experience ever failed. Even days and days of shooting. They don't heat-up like the canons, they handle pretty well the bad treatments despite being "toys".
What really sucks are the audio imput, yes this is the weak point to secure those jack-minijacks, and rain (on the #2, the 3 is sealed).

And Coot, your wheels look like the CIA ones following the president.


 
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 13, 2013, 06:16:34 pm
GH3 is a brilliant little video camera. Focus racking, focus tracking and auto focus are really good.
Was already good on the GH2 lenses do have some focus pump though... but for the price they are great.
http://youtu.be/T7hHxDh5OcM (http://youtu.be/T7hHxDh5OcM)

internal codec recording is good and can be hacked to be a bit better. However HDMI out is not 4.2.2
unless there is a hack I don't know about.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: tho_mas on May 13, 2013, 06:39:50 pm
internal codec recording is good and can be hacked to be a bit better.
do you know the camera? Did you shoot it?
Internal codec recording of the GH3 is a joke compared to a hacked GH2. 75MBit/s for Intra is simply too low. You end up with I-Frames around 400K. It's okay if you shoot wide open with large out of focus areas (i.e. - most of the image does not require high resolution). But shooting high definition scenes stopped down things look completey different.
Don't get me wrong... for video the GH3 is still much better than any Canon or Nikon I know of ... but a hacked GH2 will smoke the GH3 in terms of "internal codec recording" (your term)... even in 25p (and on the GH2 25p derives from 50i... so it's wrapped... while the GH3 shoots native 25p).
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 13, 2013, 06:54:32 pm
do you know the camera? Did you shoot it?
Internal codec recording of the GH3 is a joke compared to a hacked GH2. 75MBit/s for Intra is simply too low. You end up with I-Frames around 400K. It's okay if you shoot wide open with large out of focus areas (i.e. - most of the image does not require high resolution). But shooting high definition scenes stopped down things look completey different.
Don't get me wrong... for video the GH3 is still much better than any Canon or Nikon I know of ... but a hacked GH2 will smoke the GH3 in terms of "internal codec recording" (your term)... even in 25p (and on the GH2 25p derives from 50i... so it's wrapped... while the GH3 shoots native 25p).

Hey... read my post again.....
First line is about the GH3 the rest is the GH2

Also to be precise the stock GH3 goes up to 72Mbps not 75MBit/s
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 07:39:20 pm
75MBit/s for Intra is simply too low. Don't get me wrong... for video the GH3 is still much better than any Canon or Nikon I know of ... but a hacked GH2 will smoke the GH3 in terms of "internal codec recording" (your term)... even in 25p (and on the GH2 25p derives from 50i... so it's wrapped... while the GH3 shoots native 25p).

Yep, that's something I pointed several time: 75 or 72 Mb/s is not ideal for INTRA. It would be very fine for long GOP but for INTRA, not so great.

And it's true that the latest GH2 hacks, the ones with GOP1 at 150 to up are leaving the GH3 "behind". Hey, they can be considered INTRA and doubled or tripled the recorded datas.
But...

The footage I saw after a day on set with the GH3 really pleased me a lot. Frankly very very good. And also, the GH3 AF is really amazing. I can understand why Coot saw the potential to ad such a cam on his set.

And you know, soon or later, hackers will boost it as they did for the GH2, so the 75 will be a past reality soon. Also, "slowmo" at 50 mb/s is not a bad feature at all.

And no Fred, It will not be hackable to 4:2:2. Unfortunatly. The only thing the hackers will do is boosting the recorded datas and re-arranging the mapping etc...but no 4:2:2. That's the big missing feature of this cam, not even with external recorder. Pana protects their pro-gear.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 13, 2013, 07:51:29 pm
Nikon is working on focus racking for future cameras.
Set presets and speed, then trigger when you want it to change focus.

http://www.photographybay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Nikon-Auto-Focus-Pull.pdf]]http://www.photographybay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Nikon-Auto-Focus-Pull.pdf (http://)

I would imagine that other brands are working on this too.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: tho_mas on May 13, 2013, 07:54:08 pm
Yep, that's something I pointed several time: 75 Mb/s is not ideal for INTRA. It would be very fine for long GOP but for INTRA, not so great.
I wonder why Panasonic choose this direction. 75MBit (72 for nitpickers) for Intra is mathematical too low. Pansonic knows this.

Quote
The footage I saw after a day on set with the GH3 really pleased me a lot.
IPB mode (as opposed to ALL-I) looks really good. Really! I agree...

Quote
And also, the GH3 AF is really amazing. I can understand why Coot saw the potential to ad such a cam on his set.
Absolutely. Panasonic was smart enough to make the AF smooth, not fast ... this is exactly what you want when shooting video. Continous AF doesn't work all the time (i.e. under all circumstances) ... but generally the way Panasonic desinged it is really, really good. Maybe it gets even better in future firmware updates... who knows.

Quote
And you know, soon or later, hackers will boost it as they did for the GH2.
Sure :-) I am looking forward to the first hack! Beside the AF capabilities (especially in cunjunction with the new AF/I.S. lenses) the GH3 has better dynamic range and better high ISO than the GH2. ISO1600 on the GH3 is really usable... even without excessive Noise Reduction (except you can maybe apply some soft NR to the deepest blacks... it depends).

Still ... unless I need certain AF capabilities I do prefer my hacked GH2 for the time being...

BTW... it's a pleasure to see you here on board again!
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 07:55:45 pm
Nice to see you too Tho_mas.

Are you still runnin Media Composer ?
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: tho_mas on May 13, 2013, 08:07:43 pm
Are you still runnin Media Composer ?
sure! what else? :-)
Have been using it for 15 years ... I really don't want to go FCP or Premie or Eidus as long as I do personal work. When I am working with a cutter I don't care whatever she/he is using... as long as it's fast and as long as it doesn't make me nervous ...

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 08:12:49 pm
sure! what else? :-)
Have been using it for 15 years ... I really don't want to go FCP or Premie or Eidus as long as I do personal work. When I am working with a cutter I don't care whatever she/he is using... as long as it's fast and as long as it doesn't make me nervous ...


I'm totally sold to Avid now. Did intensive classes on the broadcast national teevee and this bloody Avid rocks like anything else, once the steeper learning curve is passed.
I can't picture myself using another NLE now that I'm more advanced on it.
No surprise why it's the prefer NLE in most big prods. I've been playing a little with Premiere but no...not my cup of tea.

I've been trying to bring the Cooter to the MC dark force for awhile but he is obstinate like a texan. He will use his FCP7 until the software explode all the lamps and melt into peices.

Maybe this 4 hours video could convince. Really serious stuff: http://vimeo.com/50790832
Good for watching in a boring flight between LA and Chandernagor.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: tho_mas on May 13, 2013, 08:21:18 pm
I'm totally sold to Avid now. Did intensive classes on the broadcast national teevee and this bloody Avid rocks like anything else, once the steeper learning curve is passed.
I can't picture myself using another NLE now that I'm more advanced on it.
it's the same to me... obviously :-)
Well... and I'm also somehow glad you appreciate the workflow options Avid offers....

Quote
No surprise why it's the prefer NLE in most big prods.
here in Germany it's pretty much like this: short clips (program promotion/trailer, advertising) it's FCP (7 - FCPx nowhere in the professional business) and Avid (I would say half/half). Story telling: Avid (98% I guess).

Quote
I've been playing a little with Premiere but no...
certainly NO! Adobe comes from still imagery. Premire is Photoshop based. They really have no idea about story telling or how to create a workflow for storytellers. They have some really, really smart (technical) features... but the workflow is still really painful ... IMO.

Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 08:23:43 pm

Well... and I'm also somehow glad you appreciate the workflow options Avid offers....
here in Germany it's pretty much like this: short clips (program promotion/trailer, advertising) it's FCP (7 - FCPx nowhere in the professional business) and Avid (I would say half/half). Story telling: Avid (98% I guess).
certainly NO! Adobe comes from still imagery. Premire is Photoshop based. They really have no idea about story telling or how to create a workflow for storytellers. They have some really, really smart (technical) features... but the workflow is still really painful ... IMO.
Same here. You nailed it.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: tho_mas on May 13, 2013, 08:31:41 pm
Quote
I've been trying to bring the Cooter to the MC dark force for awhile but with no success at all so far. He will use his FCP7 until the software explode all the lamps and melt into peices.
didn't see this since you've edited your post...

Well... if FCP7 works fine for someone theres no real reason to change anything (until FCP7 is not supported anymore... but FCPx is certainly not a professional upgrade).
Anytime I work with a cutter on FCP7 I have to laugh because anytime I want to see someting longer than 5 seconds they tell me they have to render the sequence.
While this is funny when you have time (and good coffee) it's an absolut desaster when you don't have any time at all. It simply absurbs too much attention and interrupts the workflow. And of course it doesn't work at all if you have to deliver a piece within an hour or two ...


Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 08:40:42 pm
Yeah, I mean, FCP7 still works, and until it's been supported, it will do the job. I totally understand why switching is a pain in the ass when everybody in the studio is used to one system.
A switch is always a time consuming black hole.

But I totaly join you on the fact that the implementation-phylosophy of Avid really help to tell the story. And also that with big volume, when it's the case for feature, it's the most stable, secure and
for collaborative high-end workflows, DIT know its core and solutions are working with great reliability.

I was very interested on DS, but it seems that they won't re-work it any longuer but center on MC.

Ouupsss: wasn't this a MF forum? They will fire us from here.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: tho_mas on May 13, 2013, 08:54:05 pm
Yeah, I mean, FCP7 still works, and until it's been supported, it will do the job. I totally understand why switching is a pain in the ass when everybody in the studio is used to one system.
A switch is always a time consuming black hole.
yes! Because people working with certain tools are only good, creative and fast when they don't have to think about how they are doing things. Think about the way you built a project, the way you organize your footage... and finally the way you use your fucking keyboard shotcuts.
This is actually the strength of Avid... IMO: you can always bulid your own worflow (project-dependant)... it doesn't force you to do things this or that way. It's extremely complex... but it's also extremely open to explore and to built your very personal wokflow (even your own wokspace - which today I would regard one of the most important features of any software. This is also btw one of the reasons I like Capture One so much... you can customize it in many ways, edit keyboards shortscurts etc. ... only the shitty dark interface is a given).

Quote
But I totaly join you on the fact that the implementation-phylosophy of Avid really help to tell the story. And also that with big volume, when it's the case for feature, it's the most stable, secure and
for collaborative high-end workflows, DIT know its core and solutions are working.
this mirrors my experience after many years in the TV business...

Quote
Ouupsss: wasn't this a MF forum?
don't worry. This forum has become the coffe corner for smart-asses ... :-)



Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: bcooter on May 14, 2013, 03:00:07 am


The footage I saw after a day on set with the GH3 really pleased me a lot. Frankly very very good. And also, the GH3 AF is really amazing........... snip...but no 4:2:2. That's the big missing feature of this cam, not even with external recorder. Pana protects their pro-gear.

I wish they wouldn't protect their pro gear because if it shot a pro rezz 422 at 150mbs that little pany would rock the world.

The focus is smooth and the only thing I don't like about the camera is the look and feel.  Compared to the Olympus (which is jewel like) it's kind of a lump, though a very effective lump.

I shot some video with the Oly omd and it's in camera stabilization is almost steadicam smooth . . . really . . . and the video is not bad.  Not as good as the Pany but as good as the Sony fs100.

Anyway to try to take this back to medium format land, I believe they really need to look at these 4/3's cameras for usability.  There are a lot of amazing features that are in use today, not in the future.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Yea I'll use fcp 7 for a while longer but eventually have to move to Avid.  Don't like premier, though fcp 7 isn't that slow if you transcode your footage to prorezz 4:2:2, and for your early cutting set the sequence to rgb 8bit.  Rendering time is virtually zero unless you start adding filters.   Then once the cut is locked, move over to 10 bit precision yuv go to lunch and render.

Also to fix the gamma issue of final cut pro to a quicktime conversion, go to the sequence settings find the advance tab and a box of qt settings opens.  ALWAYS set gamma correction to NONE.



Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Rob C on May 14, 2013, 04:05:48 am
Could be, though actually it's what happens when a third assistant shoots a Nikon file (honestly) 3 stops over and I pulled the curves down too quickly.

I fixed it for you Rob.

IMO

BC



Thank you, Cooter, you've reconfirmed my sense of expectations!

All I'd like now is to see someone make a short movie using a Cat lens.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 14, 2013, 05:58:21 am
I wish they wouldn't protect their pro gear because if it shot a pro rezz 422 at 150mbs that little pany would rock the world.

The focus is smooth and the only thing I don't like about the camera is the look and feel.  Compared to the Olympus (which is jewel like) it's kind of a lump, though a very effective lump.

I shot some video with the Oly omd and it's in camera stabilization is almost steadicam smooth . . . really . . . and the video is not bad.  Not as good as the Pany but as good as the Sony fs100.

Anyway to try to take this back to medium format land, I believe they really need to look at these 4/3's cameras for usability.  There are a lot of amazing features that are in use today, not in the future.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Yea I'll use fcp 7 for a while longer but eventually have to move to Avid.  Don't like premier, though fcp 7 isn't that slow if you transcode your footage to prorezz 4:2:2, and for your early cutting set the sequence to rgb 8bit.  Rendering time is virtually zero unless you start adding filters.   Then once the cut is locked, move over to 10 bit precision yuv go to lunch and render.

Also to fix the gamma issue of final cut pro to a quicktime conversion, go to the sequence settings find the advance tab and a box of qt settings opens.  ALWAYS set gamma correction to NONE.



I have great respect for fcp. I think that thanks to it,
Apple obliged Avid to be less arrogant and we all benefit.
I used to really like Color. In fact, fcp was like a super app
And for the fraction of the costs of other systems.
This app has done so much for editors and even if it's
Now outdated, many are still cuttin with it.

The good news is that they've Been so many people
Switching to Avid since the fcpx, that there are a lot of
Tutos to help fcp users to make the switch way easier.
The 4 hours link I posted above for ex is from a former
Fcp editor, so he makes references on what is the
Workflow in fcp and what to do in the Avid. So fcp users
Have a reference to work from and can picture easily
The differences.

The other interesting thing about the Avid, are the level
Of the people involved in the forums. In the cow for ex,
There are really top knowledgable editors and DITs. So
The level of tech answers is really high. When you need
A specific info, it's generaly there and Personaly I find it
Very "safe". It's not like those pp forums plagued by
Wanabees and you have to spend time to figure-out
who knows and who knows less. It's very very rare
In the avid forums. Curiously, many Avid editors know
Very well fcp and can help fcp users easily. I see it all
The time. Lots of Avid editors were cutting previously in
FCP or started with Avid long time ago, switched to FCP,
then back again to Avid, so really, when you are in an
Avid forum comming from FCP, you have lots of people
in the same situation and they are as knowledgable in
FCP techniques.

Yeah, Pana protects too much their pro line. They have
Build A potential jewell with the gh2, gh3. But they aren't
Fully commited to bring them to the real pro specs.
I think they don't want it to be out of control and people
Stop to buy their expensive camcorders. hey, they have
A pro division and know those gh have huge potential
To threaten seriously their pro line. It's political.
But if we probably will never get prores like the Alexa,
They'll implement RAW video for sure, wich will solve
The current limitations in a short term, but adding the
Dev step.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 14, 2013, 10:05:50 am
Didn't Magic lantern change that yesterday?

Sorry, I didn't realised that you were talking about the new Magic Lantern Raw hack just released.

Yes, the Canon's hackers have done a huge step, Still a work in progress but really promissing. And yes, now the Canon DSLR can
start to be a very serious motion tool. Sony and Pana will have to move their bottoms. It's a benefit for all. This will shake the market and makes it
more exciting and dynamic.

Canon might not be very happy for its C300...
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: MrSmith on May 14, 2013, 03:27:01 pm
HBlad might do a deal on that lovely new Lunar camera? There must be some movement on the price if you buy an HD60? ::)
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 14, 2013, 09:20:13 pm
HBlad might do a deal on that lovely new Lunar camera? There must be some movement on the price if you buy an HD60? ::)

Maybe they can refund $ 4,000 when the crocodile skin grip falls off.....
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 05:07:03 am

certainly NO! Adobe comes from still imagery. Premire is Photoshop based. They really have no idea about story telling or how to create a workflow for storytellers. They have some really, really smart (technical) features... but the workflow is still really painful ... IMO.


I work on projects with Avid as well as Premiere Pro and have dabbled with FCP(very little).

While Avid is definitely the industry standard I don't thing Adobe and the Premeire Pro folks have NO IDEA about story telling.

Out of curiosity what is it that you find that is missing that makes Premiere Pro hopeless for story telling?

Personally I find no problem story telling in any of the major editing programs.

maybe it's just me, but from my experience story telling is in the script and edititng is the fine tuning of the cut of the story.

In another are I find that Premiere Pro has far superior strengths such as it's integration with After Effects and photoshop for effects heavy, design heavy and visual heavy work.

In particular I think it's a great tool for the photographer making motion imagery.

Final conforming with After Effects is so much easier with Premeire.

Pemiere 7 is close to release and includes native prores and avid codecs.

Here are a few frames form some motion work I've done on Premiere Pro and After effects combined.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/8742947089_cfda0e766f_b.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7289/8744064994_2ac745260d_b.jpg)
Corporate documentary 55 minutes

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7284/8744086032_c5757f3ba0_n.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7282/8742967981_44faa375cb_n.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7284/8744085990_678195aabf_n.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7291/8744086052_5a6f1dd2fd_n.jpg)

Cosmetics ad and corporate doc.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7291/8742986397_c9bbda59b0_z.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8742986395_477c714d8f_b.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8744104346_8ee2ba2294_b.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8744104362_f5984d13bb_m.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7293/8742986367_c8624e3c5b_z.jpg)

Martin Lawrence Runteldat... Title sequence and 15 minute life story featurette part of the full lenght stand up comedy feature.
This required editing various formats all on one timeline from 20/30 hours of footage from VHS to digital and film digital intermediates.
I also did the visual effects for the feature. All atmospheric effects and many lighting effects as no smoke machines could be used at constitution hall
where the finale of the tour was shot. Final sketch required turning off the lights and simulating a follow spot for the entire sketch.
Effects done in 3D, 2D and all effects dailies made in premiere. Multi camera feature section was edited in Avid.

Anyway motion image is a great extension of a still photographers work and tools like Photoshop, Premeire Pro and After effects are great, especially now that Premiere Pro
has ever more Avid integration.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 16, 2013, 06:08:05 am
PP, Imo, is far from being a wreak. It's powerfull
And highly capable, and as you point, highly integrated
In Adobe suite.
Also, the addition of Speedgrade is really good and will
Bring the CC to another level with the ease of dynamic link.
Considering the all suite, Adobe has a more capable
Super app than smoke.

Also, as you pointed, it's a perfect app for photographers
Background because they feel more "at home", while
Autodesk, or Avid are less friendly to make the switch
And require more learning curve.

But, there are several things to take into consideration.
-  Adobe is not a standart within this industry. It might
Well become in the future but not yet. Despite being
Outdated, there are still a lot more houses cuttin in fcp7,
And when it comes to big prods, high-end, Avid still
Rules. Personaly, I do not know here any house that uses
PP. Only indies, a couple of freelance editors but that's it.
It does not mean that the software is crap, it is not. .
It's just that it suits some workflows and not others.

Then the Avid. The big strengh of MC, imo, is the stability
When it comes to big volumes, file management is simply
In another league, it's better designed for collaborative
Workflows. PP implies that the more logical workflow
Would be using it within the suite, in combination with
AE for ex. Avid is designed to be used with colorists who
Grade in Resolve, Nukoda,; effects houses on Nuke etc...
It is also featured for broadcast teevees requirements.
It's only when one requieres lots of roundtrippings and
Have to deal with broadcasters and feature prod houses,
Or if One needs to outsource, that you can appreciate
The differences. you just send bins. Try to handle edls, aafs, as4,
Etc when things go wrong etc...
Then it's mxf based. Etc...it would take pages to develop all that.
In other words, part-time editors, photographers coming
To motion, etc...won't see any difference. In fact,
They will see that Avid is an overcomplicated hassle. But for the people
Who work daily within this industry, most would choose
An Avid system before Adobe.

Avid can be A real pain in the ass because you have
To feed it with what it wants, and it's "the avid's way".
AMA is a love-hate relashionship. But when one does
The things the way the program wants you to do, you got
The best obedient dog. And totaly customizable according
To each editor's style. So it's faster to cut with.
Metadatas management is top, and metadatas are
The core of motion post-prod. Back-up implementation,
Etc...

But Adobe certainly has great capabilities, depends for
Each One needs.
AE is really the big cherry on the cake of Adobe. This
In fact is the core app. PP only optional. As you pointed,
We can cut in Avid, and compo in AE.
Personaly, although I recognize AE as the jewell, I hate
Its interface and layer based. But it's just me.
I knew the Martin Lawrence video (only a part). Well, for text effects,
as there are a lot, AE is way better than a Nuke compo.
In fact, there are complementary. It's the right
software for the right task as we say. Nothing is better
nor worse, it's only a matter of what helps in this or that
area, and what helps less.

For someone who runs his own prod suite, wants
To control the compositing at home, wants to do the
Audio at home, being fully featured at cool cost,
do a lot of text-titleling composites,
Adobe is the way to go Imo. Full time editors, broadcast,
Feature film prods, fragmentated workflows, Avid. But it's not a golden rule,
And everyone can tell a good story even with a windows
Movie maker.

ps: I'll do when I have time, 3 video tutos on the retouching
And fx, only within Avid on purpose. 3 levels of complexity, from
Basic to advanced. I hope this time my narrative english
Will be more fluid and less monkey-talking. The goal
Is not sending anything to Nuke that can be done
Within the editor.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: Chris Barrett on May 16, 2013, 05:38:47 pm
Since we're careening wildly off topic, I'll pile onto the fire.  This is a quick assemblage from the stock stuff I was just shooting here in Chicago.  It's not really meant to be cohesive, I just threw it together with a music track for a bit of fun.  The RED Epic footage converts to B&W beautifully. Graded in Resolve with a bit of warmth thrown on top...

https://vimeo.com/christopherbarrett/review/66268284/f29913b09e (https://vimeo.com/christopherbarrett/review/66268284/f29913b09e)

AND FRED....  Our short Best If Used By has been selected for the Madrid International Film Festival!!!  They've also nominated us for Best Cinematography  ;)
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 16, 2013, 06:11:35 pm


AND FRED....  Our short Best If Used By has been selected for the Madrid International Film Festival!!!  They've also nominated us for Best Cinematography  ;)

FANTASTIC ! !

Congrats.

Do you plan to travel to Madrid ? If so, PM me and we meet.

Ps: I liked the final take with the photographer (you?). Nicely composed.
Title: Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 07:14:51 pm
AND FRED....  Our short Best If Used By has been selected for the Madrid International Film Festival!!!  They've also nominated us for Best Cinematography  ;)

Congratulations!

My good friend Bryan Becker is nominated for best Actor.

Best of luck toy yo both!