Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:55:00 am

Title: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:55:00 am
Isn't it time to stop anonymous posting? Don't people think it would improve the tone of conversation?

I'd have no problem with a general rule that allows individuals to make a case for exemption (eg they're senior guys in Adobe's Camera Raw team) but I'd begin by barring new members from posting until their profile identifies them and makes them a little more responsible for what they say.

Anyone agree?

John
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Tony Jay on May 11, 2013, 05:06:02 am
I agree with the sentiment however I am not sure how one would enforce this.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 11, 2013, 07:54:19 am
Could you point to any irresponsibility in anything I've posted to date?
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: dreed on May 11, 2013, 08:10:14 am
Isn't it time to stop anonymous posting? Don't people think it would improve the tone of conversation?

I'd have no problem with a general rule that allows individuals to make a case for exemption (eg they're senior guys in Adobe's Camera Raw team) but I'd begin by barring new members from posting until their profile identifies them and makes them a little more responsible for what they say.

Anyone agree?

John

And what would that do for people like "madmanchan"?
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: John Cothron on May 11, 2013, 08:12:39 am
works for me
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: jeremyrh on May 11, 2013, 08:28:42 am
What happens when someone doesn't agree with what you posted and tries to cause you problems in your "real life"? Has happened to me (not here) - there are some very nasty people out there, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: svein on May 11, 2013, 08:43:44 am
I believe that using real names would reduce trolling, outrageous statements and offensive language to some degree. However, I don't think making rules that can't be enforced is a good idea, and I can't see how such a rule could be enforced.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: kencameron on May 11, 2013, 08:54:18 am
And what would that do for people like "madmanchan"?
No impact on him, surely, as  he is a "senior guy in adobe's camera raw team" who has frequently disclosed his real name and whose posts set an impeccable standard of civility and relevance. And surely no suggestion that the great majority of people posting under pseudonyms aren't as civil as the rest of us. The idea is appealing but I share the reservations about whether it could be enforced.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 09:10:28 am
Could you point to any irresponsibility in anything I've posted to date?
You, not that I've noticed, but others certainly.

And what would that do for people like "madmanchan"?
See his signature. I referred to him because I'm a little surprised and pleased that he seems happy to participate in plain sight.

What happens when someone doesn't agree with what you posted and tries to cause you problems in your "real life"? Has happened to me (not here) - there are some very nasty people out there, unfortunately.
Surely knowing their identity gives you more remedies than when you don't?

I believe that using real names would reduce trolling, outrageous statements and offensive language to some degree. However, I don't think making rules that can't be enforced is a good idea, and I can't see how such a rule could be enforced.
Other forums do enforce it, but I agree it has to be practical. Here, I'd start by making it very obvious in the registration that anonymity simply isn't allowed. Existing users - if there's one complaint against you and you've no ID, bang, you're gone for a week. Not sure about malicious complaints, but you can't make the perfect the enemy of doing what you can do.

When even someone as apparently thick-skinned as Schewe considers complaining about ad hominem stuff....

John
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: jeremyrh on May 11, 2013, 09:56:40 am
Surely knowing their identity gives you more remedies than when you don't?

Maybe, but a post facto remedy is not much comfort when the rumours and innuendos are in the wild already.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 10:08:27 am
Sure, but if someone knows they're visible they're less likely to become a bunny boiler?
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: PeterAit on May 11, 2013, 02:00:13 pm
Sure, but if someone knows they're visible they're less likely to become a bunny boiler?

Bunny boiler?!?! You've got to love the English language. Anyway, they are better roasted <g>.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:04:34 pm
It's from Fatal Attraction, Peter.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 02:10:55 pm
And how are you actually going to do this?

-- Albert Einstein
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 11, 2013, 02:23:32 pm
When even someone as apparently thick-skinned as Schewe considers complaining about ad hominem stuff....

Then how about a rule that forbids ad hominem comments? That you could police quite effectively
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 11, 2013, 02:25:55 pm
And how are you actually going to do this?

-- Albert Einstein

Quite. My real name is Henryk Rumpelstiltskin Trotsky. Or maybe Frederico Gonzales. Or Marjorie Smyth-Hampton. Or ...
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:28:27 pm
On another forum which I used to moderate we'd give you one chance. The moment there's a complaint, if your ID looks fake you're toast. It's not rocket science.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:34:38 pm
Then how about a rule that forbids ad hominem comments? That you could police quite effectively
That's effectively here already. I've always found that stripping away anonymity reduces that kind of behaviour.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 02:35:01 pm
On another forum which I used to moderate we'd give you one chance. The moment there's a complaint, if your ID looks fake you're toast. It's not rocket science.

WOW. I guess we just need to tolerate your intolerance.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 02:36:06 pm
That's effectively here already. I've always found that stripping away anonymity reduces that kind of behaviour.

Absolutely.

-- John Doe
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 11, 2013, 02:38:34 pm
I in generally in favor of more freedom and less restrictions or forced rules. Thus if someone prefers to hide their identity, so be it. The consequence for them, however, is the high likelihood of diminished credibility.

As for the tone, much of it comes from us posting under real names (myself included).
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 02:45:52 pm
The other side of this coin is that there are rather a nasty set of individuals on the internet, and while I like to contribute to conversations, I really don't want some of these characters stalking me across the internet. Certainly, knowing someone's identity does not stop people from slamming them. Pick any established photographer and I am sure you will find someone to dis them. The fact we would even link credibility to personality is odd.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:46:50 pm
The consequence for them, however, is the high likelihood of diminished credibility.

As for the tone, much of it comes from us posting under real names (myself included).
I agree on both counts (about my tone, not yours).
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 11, 2013, 02:49:58 pm
Then how about a rule that forbids ad hominem comments? That you could police quite effectively

Why? As long as there are no obscenities involved, ad hominem work more against the user than the intended target. And again, it all depends on the definition, what constitutes ad hominem, and who is to say. The best response to it is not banning it, but exposing it as such.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 02:54:30 pm
The other side of this coin is that there are rather a nasty set of individuals on the internet, and while I like to contribute to conversations, I really don't want some of these characters stalking me across the internet. Certainly, knowing someone's identity does not stop people from slamming them. Pick any established photographer and I am sure you will find someone to dis them. The fact we would even link credibility to personality is odd.
I don't deny that. There may also be an issue with women wanting more privacy. I don't contend it's a simple yes/no, but I do think that on balance it would be beneficial.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 02:59:24 pm
I agree on both counts (about my tone, not yours).

And speaking of ad hominem comments, you are using the credibility red-herring to try to force people to take your position by suggesting they will be marginalized. I judge people by what they do and say, not there nomenclature. In fact, this entire post is about you to trying to force a change you want to LuLa. This site is not about you. I would saying knowing your name has nothing to do with my opinion of you--your thread speaks volumes.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 03:02:30 pm
I don't deny that. There may also be an issue with women wanting more privacy. I don't contend it's a simple yes/no, but I do think that on balance it would be beneficial.

??? So you want people to use their name or not use their name if they choose. We have that system now. In fact, in some forums, I will identify myself if I think the forum is a positive and safe place to be. In others, I prefer to keep my anonymity.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 11, 2013, 03:32:35 pm
Why? As long as there are no obscenities involved, ad hominem work more against the user than the intended target. And again, it all depends on the definition, what constitutes ad hominem, and who is to say. The best response to it is not banning it, but exposing it as such.

A post that said "Chairman Bill, your photos are a pile of stinking effluent, not fit to be seen by decent folk", it would at least be a critique of my photos. "Chairman Bill, you are a pile of stinking effluent, not fit to be seen by decent folk" wouldn't, it would be an ad hom. Simples.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 11, 2013, 03:41:23 pm
... a pile of stinking effluent...

I said "no obscenities"... simple.

Besides, people on this site have been banned for less.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 03:58:10 pm
And speaking of ad hominem comments, you are using the credibility red-herring to try to force people to take your position by suggesting they will be marginalized. I judge people by what they do and say, not there nomenclature. In fact, this entire post is about you to trying to force a change you want to LuLa. This site is not about you. I would saying knowing your name has nothing to do with my opinion of you--your thread speaks volumes.
That's drivel. I am not trying to force anything, and did I ever say the site was about me? Er, no. I've simply made a suggestion which I think would be a good idea. What's more, I've not questioned your motives in the way you've just questioned mine.

Re credibility, I am not suggesting anonymous people will be marginalised. I am saying I find them less credible, especially if I've already doubt about what they're saying or their tone.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 11, 2013, 04:19:42 pm
That's drivel. I am not trying to force anything, and did I ever say the site was about me? Er, no. I've simply made a suggestion which I think would be a good idea. What's more, I've not questioned your motives in the way you've just questioned mine.

Re credibility, I am not suggesting anonymous people will be marginalised. I am saying I find them less credible, especially if I've already doubt about what they're saying or their tone.

I tend to agree with you John.  I believe people should be genuine and own their comments, and that does not always happen here.  Being out in the open makes one consider what one says before pressing the send key.  It is still possible to have strong opinions but they are less likely to descend into personal attacks if the poster is up front.  Not sure how it would be policed, or even if it worth trying to enforce - I think it should be a free choice.  But mostly I'm suspicious of anybody conversing while hiding behind a screen.

Jim
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 11, 2013, 04:27:22 pm
Do not worry, thesmartguywitha645d, your credibility couldn't possibly go any further, even if you would reveal your identity. ;)
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Rob C on May 11, 2013, 05:16:29 pm
Personally, I don't mind people using a nom de plume if they want so to do - why should I? It's what they decide to communicate that counts, and since we probably don't really know one another in reality, a normal name is just as much a veil as anything else.

There isn't much rudeness in LuLa, and I honestly don't see a problem with the status quo.

Watching some programme about Startrek this evening, I was stunned to realise that one of the world's best-known phrases contains the line "to boldly go..." how offensive is that to some of us?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: jrsforums on May 11, 2013, 05:24:42 pm
A post that said "Chairman Bill, your photos are a pile of stinking effluent, not fit to be seen by decent folk", it would at least be a critique of my photos. "Chairman Bill, you are a pile of stinking effluent, not fit to be seen by decent folk" wouldn't, it would be an ad hom. Simples.

Quite frankly, I do not think either of these is acceptable.  Both are attacking the person, just in different ways.  There are better ways to say it.

I know that I have gotten caught up in the emotion of some recent debates/dialogs.  It can get quite frustrating when any point you are trying to make is ignored and the apologists or promoters of the company line attack you as being stupid for having your position.  Where I have come across too strong, I apologize...and will try to be calmer in the future....however, I should be able to have my opinion and state it as well as any other here.

I find it interesting that some of those proposing "connections" and the right to ban people are often the biggest attackers and users of the four letter 'S'-word and calling people dumb for not agreeing with their position.

While I do not think it necessary or that it changes anything, I have added my full name to my signature.  More info you do not need, though I have nothing to hide and will respond if asked.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 05:56:52 pm
"to boldly go..." how offensive is that to some of us?
Not me. I blame Dryden. Now if folk get their "it's" and "its" wrong.....
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: David Sutton on May 11, 2013, 06:11:16 pm
I remember we had this conversation a while back, and so many of us dropped our noms de plume that it quite stressed the LuLa team. Instead of working at the members' list they were wanting to go off and do silly things like photograph.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: johnvr on May 11, 2013, 06:12:01 pm
No, I don't agree people shouldn't be able to use pseudonyms. Years ago, I reacted to something Michael wrote using my full name. Now, that one reaction regularly pops up when I google my name. I don't like it. Not because I didn't mean what I said or regret saying it. No, mainly because that comment and some others on other photography sites show up amid or above google hits that pertain to my profession, journalism. When people google my full name, I want them to find me as the journalist first, photographer second.

This goes further than that, since I also do model photography and used to travel in the Middle East, where that wouldn't go over well. Even more reason to use an alias.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Tony Jay on May 11, 2013, 06:34:36 pm
No, I don't agree people shouldn't be able to use pseudonyms. Years ago, I reacted to something Michael wrote using my full name. Now, that one reaction regularly pops up when I google my name. I don't like it. Not because I didn't mean what I said or regret saying it. No, mainly because that comment and some others on other photography sites show up amid or above google hits that pertain to my profession, journalism. When people google my full name, I want them to find me as the journalist first, photographer second.

This goes further than that, since I also do model photography and used to travel in the Middle East, where that wouldn't go over well. Even more reason to use an alias.

Interesting take John, however it is possible to allow your name and other information to be displayed in the footer of every post even if you do use a pseudonym - just look at David Sutton's posts as an easy example.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on May 11, 2013, 06:34:51 pm
I don't post under my real name (nor, surprising as it may seem, under a portrait of myself) because I'm not a professional or well-known amateur, none of you will ever have heard of me and knowledge of my identity won't, or shouldn't, have any impact on your perception of the rationality of my views or the veracity of what I write.

That said, I'm perfectly content to reveal myself, in all my glory, to anyone who's sufficiently interested to ask; and there's ample information about me in my posts to make finding my name a trivial task for anyone who has access to Google.

Michael knows who we all are with as much accuracy as is possible in the circumstances and can act accordingly if necessary.

I don't understand what problem the suggestion is attempting to address.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 11, 2013, 07:00:40 pm
I don't want it to be about individuals, but take the post you didn't like (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78192.msg628251#msg628251) as an example.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Iluvmycam on May 11, 2013, 07:24:44 pm
I don't care about screen names.

I'd use mine except for the work I'm doing. Every damn thing you say on the forums comes up on Google. When I retire from the work I'm doing now I won't care. That is my story.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 11, 2013, 07:52:23 pm
... Every damn thing you say on the forums comes up on Google...

And that is the problem because...?

If you say what you mean and mean what you say, than STAND behind it, for god's sake! Man up!

If you do not want your mom to google you and have you wash your mouth with a soap, then do not say it. Couldn't be simpler!

The ability to say something anonymously, and then hide behind its consequences is precisely the reason people are asking for full names.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: John Camp on May 11, 2013, 08:09:34 pm
And that is the problem because...?

If you say what you mean and mean what you say, than STAND behind it, for god's sake! Man up!

If you do not want your mom to google you and have you wash your mouth with a soap, then do not say it. Couldn't be simpler!

The ability to say something anonymously, and then hide behind its consequences is precisely the reason people are asking for full names.

That's not a very realistic attitude. I use my real name, but I work for myself. It's very possible to have a job you like and think is worthwhile, and yet the people a couple of layers over your head are ****oles. So, you might not want them to be able to Google your more candid opinions. I have no problem with that. I occasionally participate in a financial forum, and I use a pseudonym because among the topics there are some in which you wind up revealing quite a bit about your financial life. I wouldn't be comfortable doing that under my real name. I'm not try to dissemble about this, I'm not trolling or posting crazy stuff, I'm just not comfortable with thousands of strangers getting the details of my financial life...so, I use a pseudonym. There are good reasons for using them -- and you really can't judge why people do, without asking for information that they may not want to provide. So, you treat pseudonyms like you do real names -- if they're jerks, they're jerks, and you ignore them.   
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: jrsforums on May 11, 2013, 08:35:28 pm
And that is the problem because...?

If you say what you mean and mean what you say, than STAND behind it, for god's sake! Man up!

If you do not want your mom to google you and have you wash your mouth with a soap, then do not say it. Couldn't be simpler!

The ability to say something anonymously, and then hide behind its consequences is precisely the reason people are asking for full names.

Some people are in sensitive jobs or political positions, where anything they say can be twisted.  We see this every day in the news.  What about job seekers, who's Facebook pages a scrutinized?

I am much like some others....I have never pretended to be anything but what I am...and with a search of this, or other forums, one could easily find out what I did and currently do, and I have been open when asked. 

I have been using the same forum name on most forums, pretty much since I started registering....on this one since 2005.  I added my name to the signature as I really do not think it matter and to show I have nothing to hide....but I feel that others, who are sensitive to their information and thoughts being exposed on the internet should be allowed the privacy they deserve.

Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: johnvr on May 11, 2013, 10:05:50 pm
Interesting take John, however it is possible to allow your name and other information to be displayed in the footer of every post even if you do use a pseudonym - just look at David Sutton's posts as an easy example.

The problem is that you never know how the technology is going to change and in the future display something it doesn't now. I only discovered recently that sites using Disqus as their commenting system basically allow anybody to see what I commented on any Disqus-based site to show up on all those sites, even though the topics might have nothing to do with each other. I since stopped commenting via Disqus.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: johnvr on May 11, 2013, 10:10:01 pm
And that is the problem because...?

If you say what you mean and mean what you say, than STAND behind it, for god's sake! Man up!

If you do not want your mom to google you and have you wash your mouth with a soap, then do not say it. Couldn't be simpler!

The ability to say something anonymously, and then hide behind its consequences is precisely the reason people are asking for full names.

It's a problem because unless people know you personally, they're going to form an opinion of you based on a very one-dimensional impression. Once that first impression is formed, however wrong, it's hard to shake.

The web is extremely shallow and I rather defend myself against that.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 11, 2013, 10:35:29 pm
... The web is extremely shallow and I rather defend myself against that.

I couldn't care less what shallow people think of me, first impression or otherwise.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: cottagehunter on May 11, 2013, 11:11:34 pm
I have used this pseudonym on this site since 2004 and other sites since the 90's never have given a thought that I was hidding my identity. It is part of my three most active e-mail addresses. As you can see I don't post much more of a reader, I feel most of the time I don't have much to contribute that hasn't already been said if it is a discussion.  I sure have learned a lot here and most requests for information have been quickly answered

Thanks
Piierre
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Tony Jay on May 12, 2013, 04:23:27 am
The problem is that you never know how the technology is going to change and in the future display something it doesn't now. I only discovered recently that sites using Disqus as their commenting system basically allow anybody to see what I commented on any Disqus-based site to show up on all those sites, even though the topics might have nothing to do with each other. I since stopped commenting via Disqus.
It certainly isn't a perfect world is it.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: stamper on May 12, 2013, 05:45:45 am
Isn't it time to stop anonymous posting? Don't people think it would improve the tone of conversation?

I'd have no problem with a general rule that allows individuals to make a case for exemption (eg they're senior guys in Adobe's Camera Raw team) but I'd begin by barring new members from posting until their profile identifies them and makes them a little more responsible for what they say.

Anyone agree?

John

How do the forum members know that John Beardy is your real name? In your profile you have a web site.

http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/

What is your real name? How do I know - and everyone else on the forum - know that when someone claims they are using their real names it is true?
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 12, 2013, 06:06:19 am
How do the forum members know that John Beardy is your real name? In your profile you have a web site.

http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/

What is your real name? How do I know - and everyone else on the forum - know that when someone claims they are using their real names it is true?

The topic is hiding behind pseudonyms. I'm not doing so.

I'm amused that I read your comments as a (minor) attack on the person. As was said earlier, obviously bogus names are a good sign of the user's bad faith, but it's likely some people would use fake names. That happens (eg there are guns in the UK despite our laws, people use phones when driving). Where would we be if we made the perfect the enemy of the possible?

John
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: stamper on May 12, 2013, 06:20:04 am
No attack intended. I was looking for clarification about the difference in the two names you have used. One of them has to be a pseudonym. Do I take it that John Beardy is a pseudonym? The problem is when a soap box is mounted the person doing so does so in good faith. :)
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 12, 2013, 10:14:28 am
No attack intended. I was looking for clarification about the difference in the two names you have used. One of them has to be a pseudonym. Do I take it that John Beardy is a pseudonym? The problem is when a soap box is mounted the person doing so does so in good faith. :)

Wow, you're so funny. You suggest hypocrisy and you don't think the other person should think you intended it as a personal attack?

The topic was hiding behind pseudonyms.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Telecaster on May 12, 2013, 04:10:17 pm
I can't even remember why I used the name Telecaster here.   ::)  I did use it frequently years ago--my favorite electric guitar is a Tele--but often I've used my actual name too. Some of the arguments here in favor of real names have a self-righteous tinge to them that I makes me uncomfortable, even if I can accept the logic.

Anyway, I always sign posts the same wherever I am...so anyone who wanted to could easily enough figure out my name.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on May 12, 2013, 07:51:19 pm
FWIW

In practical terms the enforcement of the use of 'real' names is virtually impossible - the required labour overhead is impractical, the intended benefit doubtful.

We encourage the use of 'real' names in the Registration Agreement.

Do pseudonyms receive a shorter leash? Count on it!
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 02:37:42 am
Thanks for chipping in, and for for letting it run for a while before doing so, Chris. I'm all for minimizing extra effort, so what about moving from encouraging to requiring? I presume you approve every new member, so that would be no extra effort. Obviously there would need to be a route for people with a good reason for not using a real name - better than "I use this name for all forums".

You'd probably have to lock down the displayed user name too.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Rob C on May 13, 2013, 03:25:31 am
I watched a programme on Cavaliers and Roundheads last night; seems to me we've got Oliver Cromwell right here on LuLa.
So, yes, I do believe in reincarnation - now.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 03:31:31 am
I watched a programme on Cavaliers and Roundheads last night; seems to me we've got Oliver Cromwell right here on LuLa.
So, yes, I do believe in reincarnation - now.
Rob C
Then you'd be very amused to learn I was born on the anniversary of his death. Seriously, I'm not joking. Thanks for the compliment, but stick to the topic.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 13, 2013, 03:40:23 am
John, as I posted earlier, I do have sympathy with your position on this - but I think it should be a free choice.  The site owner already has the ability to close down an account if they wish.

In my amateur photographic life I have been a member of a local camera club for around 15 years, and we meet once a week.  It is customary for a fair size group of us to go round to a local pub at the end of the evening - the group varying from 5 - 15 or so.  We pull a few tables together and all sit around and chat (and have a beer).  Sometimes the discussions break down into smaller groups, and sometimes the whole table is sharing one discussion.  There are often quite conflicting views.  The subjects are varied, but many of them are about photography - mostly aesthetics rather than technical.  The characters present are very varied too - a good cross-section of local people.

When I participate in posting on this Forum, I almost imagine myself sitting around that table in a pub with a group of varied folk, discussing the issues.  I would never behave in a manner, or say anything that I wouldn't say across that table face to face.  Thus to sit and speak from behind a screen, anonymously, is not acceptable to me.  That is my personal benchmark.  Everyone has to make their own decision.  I can understand there may be some rare cases where  a person may need to keep their identity private, and I can accept that.  But if they do, I believe their online manners should be impeccable.  As Chris has just said, pseudonyms have a shorter leash.

As to the poster who worries about showing up in Google searches, don't say anything you don't really believe to be right.  And anyway, I did a search of my own name and despite having made hundreds of posts here, not a single one showed up in Google.  Only pages from my own website, and those of a writer with the same name.

So, like most areas of life, it should be down to personal choice and principles.  Are you an upfront kind of person who speaks their mind face to face, or would you rather hide from sight and comment from the shadows.  If the latter, just remember that we will be less tolerant of bad behaviour, and perhaps suspect your motives.

Jim
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: stamper on May 13, 2013, 04:04:35 am
Thanks for chipping in, and for for letting it run for a while before doing so, Chris. I'm all for minimizing extra effort, so what about moving from encouraging to requiring? I presume you approve every new member, so that would be no extra effort. Obviously there would need to be a route for people with a good reason for not using a real name - better than "I use this name for all forums".

You'd probably have to lock down the displayed user name too.

I wonder how a moderator "approves" a new member. Someone registers somewhere in Outer Mongolia. A background check would be a trifle difficult to accomplish. How do you set up a route for checking for people for not using their real name. It takes a few minutes to set up a free email address and register on any forum. Chris has pointed out it is very difficult - imo impossible - to check people out especially because this is a free forum and members don't have to give credit card details.




































Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 04:24:15 am
John, as I posted earlier, I do have sympathy with your position on this - but I think it should be a free choice.  The site owner already has the ability to close down an account if they wish.
And that free choice is obviously a difference between us, Jim, which is fine. Although analogies often end up with the analogy becoming the topic, your pub wouldn't allow people to come in with balaclavas or scarves over their faces, unless it's a very rough pub.

John
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 13, 2013, 04:34:53 am
And that free choice is obviously a difference between us, Jim, which is fine. Although analogies often end up with the analogy becoming the topic, your pub wouldn't allow people to come in with balaclavas or scarves over their faces, unless it's a very rough pub.

John

Well my point really was that it was MY benchmark for my behaviour.  And if they did turn up with masks on, everyone else around the table would view them and their views with some suspicion.  Consider the case of some religions and their veiled faces.  In a normal social setting I personally find that a bit disconcerting, but don't think they should be outlawed.  Within reason, freedom of choice is a good thing.  I don't like pseudonyms on this forum, but if those people behave in a civilised manner I am not too bothered.

Jim
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 04:41:36 am
I wonder how a moderator "approves" a new member. Someone registers somewhere in Outer Mongolia. A background check would be a trifle difficult to accomplish. How do you set up a route for checking for people for not using their real name. It takes a few minutes to set up a free email address and register on any forum. Chris has pointed out it is very difficult - imo impossible - to check people out especially because this is a free forum and members don't have to give credit card details.
Again, you're making the perfect the enemy of the possible. Setting up a fake email address is more hassle and raises the bar. Or for example, on another forum we have a big notice on the registration form which requests an email identifying yourself and asking for a sentence or two describing your interest in the forum topic. We don't do any more than accept someone who has jumped through that hoop, and all other registrations are dumped as they're either spammers or don't have the reading skills needed to be of value in the forum.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 04:45:23 am
Well my point really was that it was MY benchmark for my behaviour.  And if they did turn up with masks on, everyone else around the table would view them and their views with some suspicion.  Consider the case of some religions and their veiled faces. 
Ah, but they don't come in the pub! That's the trouble with analogies!
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: stamper on May 13, 2013, 04:59:00 am
As well as posting under your real name does providing your real age a requirement? ;) :)
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 05:07:34 am
As well as posting under your real name does providing your real age a requirement? ;) :)
Mental age might be more appropriate....
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on May 13, 2013, 05:10:11 am
Try doing a google search for folk here who publish their web address in their LuLa signature and you can find thousands of links to their posts.
That's a separate point, though. There's a big difference between providing a real name as a login ID and putting a URL or email address in your signature, isn't there?

As well as posting under your real name does providing your real age a requirement? ;) :)

Real physical age or real mental age?

Jeremy
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: stamper on May 13, 2013, 05:32:42 am
Is there a difference? :(
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 05:36:19 am
Often, but both are irrelevant. I know it's difficult, but try to be constructive....
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 13, 2013, 05:36:37 am
I'm not sure if you are referring to me, but my wish that my posts here don't swamp google searches for my name or website has nothing to do with what I write here and everything to do with making sure the links that are important to me and my business get priority.

Try doing a google search for folk here who publish their web address in their LuLa signature and you can find thousands of links to their posts.

I was referring to you - but I had perhaps not appreciated the point about having your web address in the signature.  Doesn't seem to be a problem with using a real name though.

Jim
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 13, 2013, 05:50:26 am
Ah, but they don't come in the pub! That's the trouble with analogies!

John, it is amazing how things get misunderstood here in forum land!  The analogy is not meant to be an analogy.  I did not call it an analogy.  It is how I actually think of myself here on the forum.  I don't say anyone else needs to think the same as I do, it just governs my personal behaviour.  If a masked person actually came into the pub I think everyone else would just leave - including me!  If Schewe came into the pub with a mask on I would be fine, because I think having seen a few of his tutorials I could recognise him.

Anything I say here I would be happy to say to say to your face (or anyone else's).  You are right in a way though, because I do speak to anonymous people here, whereas in the pub I would not speak to a masked man!  It's amazing though how the personalities shine through when you read lots of posts.  Despite never having met any of the other Forum members, I know the ones I would enjoy sitting in the pub with, and the ones I would not.  Probably many others I wouldn't like to decide on just through their posts though.

Jim
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 06:02:14 am
It is an analogy though, Jim, but I was more amused by being invited to "consider the case of some religions and their veiled faces" and wondering what they were doing in a pub.

John
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: kencameron on May 13, 2013, 06:21:50 am
I think the LuLa approach, as explained in Chris's post, is about right. Maybe the encouragement could be strengthened.  I choose to use my own name, albeit with a misleading photograph, and I suspect that doing so is a force for the good in my case, but if there is a correlation between outrageous behaviour and anonymity on LuLa, I don't think it is that strong. I also don't think behaviour on LuLa is that bad and that we don't need a problematic solution to a non-existent problem. As well as the impracticality cited by Chris, I would be concerned that enforcing an own-name requirement might drive some good, polite and reasonable people away from the forum for various reasons that seemed good to them.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 13, 2013, 07:27:07 am
It is an analogy though, Jim, but I was more amused by being invited to "consider the case of some religions and their veiled faces" and wondering what they were doing in a pub.

John

Good one! :)
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: nutcracker on May 13, 2013, 07:42:54 am
I think it unfortunate that the term "hiding behind" is used.
It is to be expected that professional photographers and photographic industry merchants would use their own or trading name on this and other sites

However, many of the amateur enthusiasts may be members of professions that discourage or even prohibit public activities that might be construed as advertising, even if not directly related to the specific profession.

Members of some professions, such as the Judiciary, prominent lawyers or medical doctors may need to protect their privacy when pursuing their interests away from professional work.

There can be perfectly legitimate reasons for using a pseudonym.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 08:12:35 am
I think it unfortunate that the term "hiding behind" is used.
It was deliberate.

I agree that there can be perfectly legitimate reasons for anonymity, and I said as much in the original post.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: jjj on May 13, 2013, 08:39:00 am
I think what would be more important that insisting on real names would be insisting on having a link to a website of one's photographic work, as that is more relevant when posting in a photography forum, than the name on one's birth certificate. Particularly if like myself you are not even called/known by the first name on said document.
I adopted jjj [a contraction of a nickname] for speed of signing in and as my website is in signature, I'm hardly anonymous.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 08:46:28 am
Sure. But the topic is not pseudonyms vs real names, it's hiding behind pseudonyms - ie anonymity.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: jjj on May 13, 2013, 09:58:06 am
Sure. But the topic is not pseudonyms vs real names, it's hiding behind pseudonyms - ie anonymity.
Fair enough, maybe you should make that distinction more explicit.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Rocco Penny on May 13, 2013, 10:14:04 am
not entirely irrelevant to life I suppose,
but I'd make it mandatory for each member to point out the constructive works they're involved with.
Names my foot.
Who cares?
So if you never want to hear from people who are sensitive to their identity due to the nature of the people they work with,
require names.
And this much is true-
unless you try very very hard to hide,
the people that want to find out who you are, can.
And anyone posting about less freedom, not more,
is trying to make their trip the trip of the entire planet, and in the words of someone better than me that knows how,
KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY ART!
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Rob C on May 13, 2013, 10:39:29 am
What a bunch of snobs! So you would refuse to join the Lone Ranger for a beer just because he "hides" behind a mask?

Now, were you to refuse to join him for that beer because you don't like beer, then that's okay by me because I can't stand the stuff either; why you should refuse the beer, disregarding your views on its flavour, is for his Cavalier treatment of his companion. Hmmm... companion?

Now tell me that this is OT. And when you do, tell me what the T actually is that this is not.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 10:58:28 am
Thanks for your rant. Not sure it makes sense though.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 13, 2013, 11:00:23 am
...tell me what the T actually is...

I think the T has been exhausted. Most reasonable people here seems to agree, moderator as well, that non-anonymity is preferred, but should be a free choice. Worked well so far. Time to move on.
Title: Re: Hiding behind pseudonyms
Post by: john beardsworth on May 13, 2013, 11:05:09 am
You're probably right. The pub is filling up with drunks ;)