Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs Ė and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: lowep on May 10, 2013, 11:13:23 AM

Title: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 10, 2013, 11:13:23 AM
"We think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year Ė worldwide, for all brands"

according to Stephan Schulz, Head of Professional Photo at Leica Camera AG, in this (http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/) interesting Forbes magazine article.

Maybe enough to fill a container?

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: sgilbert on May 10, 2013, 11:27:44 AM
Maybe enough to make Leica's sales appear to be a large percentage.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Dustbak on May 10, 2013, 11:59:32 AM
So, that makes me 0,03% of the total market. I suddenly feel really important... ;)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ondebanks on May 10, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
Interesting that he ball-parks Phase One at 40%, Leica at 20%...that leaves Pentax, Leaf and Hasselblad to fight for the remaining ~40% [one presumes that Sinar gets a few percent still also]. Since Pentax seems to be doing a roaring trade in Japan let alone elsewhere, one wonders how much share Leaf and Hasselblad have? 10% each? Seems awful low.

Ray
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: design_freak on May 10, 2013, 06:24:08 PM
We need to read "Phase One" as P1, Leaf and Mamiya  8)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Graham Mitchell on May 10, 2013, 07:06:10 PM
It was around the same 5 years ago: http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p65-announced.shtml
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 10, 2013, 07:38:49 PM
This part is a real laugh:

Quote
StS: The S-System lenses have been designed from scratch, and optimized, for digital imaging Ė a crucial distinction. With film, there is nothing between surface of the film and the lens. But with digital, you have layers of glass between the sensor and the lens (for example the glass that protects the sensor). These layers of glass have an impact on performance. Lenses designed for medium format film obviously didnít account for the layers of glass. The result is some degradation of image quality when such lenses are used in digital. Our made-for digital lenses, on the other hand, were designed only with digital sensors in mind. The result is a significant difference in image quality.

Thereís another big practical advantage to designing specifically for digital: medium format film cameras have always had a problem keeping a large surface area of film completely flat. To compensate for this unevenness, medium format lenses were designed to mask the imperfections of an uneven recording surface Ė by not providing peak sharpness. But with digital sensors, unevenness is a non-issue. This allowed us to develop lenses that deliver uncompromising peak sharpness.

Especially funny considering that they did flips and twists to get Hasselblad lenses onto the Leica.

And until ones and zeros come out of the back of a lens it analogue  ;)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 10, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
It was around the same 5 years ago: http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p65-announced.shtml

What ever the numbers are I very much doubt that the numbers are holding at where they were 5 years ago.

CIPA doesn't publish the numbers anymore.

When I asked CIPA why they did not publish numbers anymore there answer was that due to how small the market has become and how few manufacturers there
are publishing the numbers would give the other MF manufacturers to much information.

I don't see how that "excuse" holds up. If you consider that the 35mm DSLR market is dominated by 2/3 manufacturers you would have an analogous issue.

IF one looks at the last numbers CIPA published in the last few years it reported MF numbers the trend was one of fast decline and low manufactured numbers.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=10221.0;wap2 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=10221.0;wap2)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 10, 2013, 11:06:58 PM
What ever the numbers are I very much doubt that the numbers are holding at where they were 5 years ago.

CIPA doesn't publish the numbers anymore.

When I asked CIPA why they did not publish numbers anymore there answer was that due to how small the market has become and how few manufacturers there
are publishing the numbers would give the other MF manufacturers to much information.

I don't see how that "excuse" holds up. If you consider that the 35mm DSLR market is dominated by 2/3 manufacturers you would have an analogous issue.

IF one looks at the last numbers CIPA published in the last few years it reported MF numbers the trend was one of fast decline and low manufactured numbers.



BullCrap.

I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 10, 2013, 11:57:02 PM
Fred,
If Dustbak is .03, then what percentage of the market are you? Oh right ZERO! You don't MFDB.  Why even post? Why even post on the Large format forum? Do you have secret MFDB envy? Can't figure out why a sane person would otherwise spend so much time on this forum that is designated for people that use MFDB.

There are people that instead of constantly attacking and trying to build conspiracy cases against manufacturers actually add and share information.  I much prefer that kind of involvement.  You've got everyone fighting and it isn't fun.    When I coached hockey, my rule was cut everyone that is negative too much or whines too much.  It brings everything down. You would be the first on my list to eliminate from the roster - a no brainer - not cause you aren't a good photographer, but because you are a whiner and a complainer.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 11, 2013, 12:20:31 AM
Hi,

I would guess Hasselblad has a better share than 10%, they also seem to offer relatively low price at entry level.

If Phase has a market share of 40% they are just to gratulate, excellent job.

Best regards
Erik

Interesting that he ball-parks Phase One at 40%, Leica at 20%...that leaves Pentax, Leaf and Hasselblad to fight for the remaining ~40% [one presumes that Sinar gets a few percent still also]. Since Pentax seems to be doing a roaring trade in Japan let alone elsewhere, one wonders how much share Leaf and Hasselblad have? 10% each? Seems awful low.

Ray
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: jerome_m on May 11, 2013, 01:49:36 AM
Interesting that he ball-parks Phase One at 40%, Leica at 20%...that leaves Pentax, Leaf and Hasselblad to fight for the remaining ~40% [one presumes that Sinar gets a few percent still also]. Since Pentax seems to be doing a roaring trade in Japan let alone elsewhere, one wonders how much share Leaf and Hasselblad have? 10% each? Seems awful low.

Indeed. 10% of 6000 would be 600 cameras. The Hasselblad Ferrari edition is produced in a series of 499 cameras (http://www.hasselblad.com/ferrari-edition/h4d-40-ferrari-edition.aspx). That would mean that Hasselblad produces only 101 "non Ferrari" H4D a year...
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: leeonmaui on May 11, 2013, 01:52:12 AM
Aloha,

One container maybe, but that's one very expensive container!
say one cubic foot contains one high end MF system-2600 cubic feet x $45000 = $117,000,000
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: hasselbladfan on May 11, 2013, 04:55:59 AM
Indeed. 10% of 6000 would be 600 cameras. The Hasselblad Ferrari edition is produced in a series of 499 cameras (http://www.hasselblad.com/ferrari-edition/h4d-40-ferrari-edition.aspx). That would mean that Hasselblad produces only 101 "non Ferrari" H4D a year...

It took Hasselblad about 4 years to sell this "Ferrari" quantity (499 ex.) and about 2-3 years for the "Stainless" body (100 ex.).

That should mean 150 specials per year and only 450 normal bodies. That seems very low to me.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 11, 2013, 05:40:45 AM

BullCrap.

I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



Take a look at ebay lately?

Looks like a lot of people leaving MF... never seen so many for sale.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 11, 2013, 06:20:44 AM
Fred,
If Dustbak is .03, then what percentage of the market are you? Oh right ZERO! You don't MFDB.  Why even post? Why even post on the Large format forum? Do you have secret MFDB envy? Can't figure out why a sane person would otherwise spend so much time on this forum that is designated for people that use MFDB.

There are people that instead of constantly attacking and trying to build conspiracy cases against manufacturers actually add and share information.  I much prefer that kind of involvement.  You've got everyone fighting and it isn't fun.    When I coached hockey, my rule was cut everyone that is negative too much or whines too much.  It brings everything down. You would be the first on my list to eliminate from the roster - a no brainer - not cause you aren't a good photographer, but because you are a whiner and a complainer.



Eric.... read your post again and ask yourself who is whining.

As for being zero percent.... where does the OP say digital MF?
Been there, done that and the zero percent you refer to
 is a growing trend.

As for hockey.. big boys chasing a little puck and hitting it with a big stick... I'll take kitesurfing, and mountain biking.

http://www.kiteforum.tv/video/kitecam_psycho_3_13.html (http://www.kiteforum.tv/video/kitecam_psycho_3_13.html)

No full of them selves yelling coaches, outside in big nature and rather than clobbering some other team it's about playing WITH and not AGAINST big nature. Last time I was out on the water it was kitesurfing with migrating whales.
I by far prefer learning from observing other riders on the water than some yelling coach.

Always preferred animals to team sports coaches...

http://youtu.be/dxu9Yy8IoyM (http://youtu.be/dxu9Yy8IoyM)

My high school swimming coach was a pervert that humiliated swimmers by forcing them to swim
naked in a freezing pool. We got rid of the sick creep by a slow swim protest at a swim meets.
One of my team mates wore a bondage outfit at one meet and telling the judges he did so because that was probably was
probably what the coach would really like to see.

Seems like swimming coach abuse is pretty common today too....

Google "swimming coach abuse"

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 11, 2013, 07:42:56 AM
Now this topic went off the deep end, no pun intended.   ;)

I wonder if it is 6000 backs sold, or 6000 backs and/or kits sold?  I think Hassy would make a great come back if they opened there system again.  Any one I talk to who uses a reflex system would prefer to shoot with a Phase on a Hassy; no one goes bananas for the Mamiya.  I think this would be a great opportunity for them.  Also, I assume Hassy makes there own lenses, right?  This never made sense to me, why not just outsource it to Schneider, Rodenstock or Zeiss (assuming the answer to my question was "yes").  They would do a better job at a lower price since they already have years and years of collected knowledge on lenses, not to mention considerably more resources since all three make lenses for many other applications other than photography.

As for the 6000 units per year, that is not a bad number.  if the average back/system cost $30K (a reasonably conservative assumption), that's $180M in revenues per year.  Phase share would be $72M.  You can do a lot with $72M, especially if you have someone else with a track record worry about the lenses (Schneider).  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 11, 2013, 07:48:15 AM
Got to hand it you Fred, you always manage to somehow work kitesurfing into the conversation.   :D
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Ken Doo on May 11, 2013, 09:48:56 AM
Except kite surfing is probably more dangerous than WiFi enabled MFDBs from Phase....I mean, using them without your aluminum foil hat.   ;D

http://catchsomeair.us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=133:kiteboardingsafety&id=240:kiteboarder-killed-by-shark-kiteboarding-safety-rules-you-must-follow&Itemid=67
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 11, 2013, 09:59:09 AM
Hi,

Nope, they are upgrading to IQ 180. :-)

Best regards
Erik

Take a look at ebay lately?

Looks like a lot of people leaving MF... never seen so many for sale.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 11, 2013, 11:24:13 AM
Take a look at ebay lately?

Looks like a lot of people leaving MF... never seen so many for sale.


I look at eBay all the time. You don't know if an eBay listing means someone is leaving medium format or upgrading but doing so without the manufacturer or dealer trade in offer. Irregardless, people leave medium format and people join medium format. I know more about the ones joining than you know about the ones leaving.

I'll say it again - you do a disservice to this forum and its members with your calculating innuendos and misrepresentations.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: jerome_m on May 11, 2013, 11:35:37 AM
It took Hasselblad about 4 years to sell this "Ferrari" quantity (499 ex.)

How could it have taken 4 years when it was presented at Photokina 2010 and started shipping end 2010, that is 2 years and a half ago?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: jerome_m on May 11, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Also, I assume Hassy makes there own lenses, right?

Hasselblad lenses are designed and manufactured by Fuji.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 11, 2013, 12:44:55 PM
I think it could be more than those 6000 with a different business model. Pentax shows that a mf camera can be sold at the same price as a pro dslr. If a digital back was sold at that price with reasonably attractive features I think we could see a major growth of the amateur market. I'm not so sure current manufacturers are that interested in such a development though as long as the current model works well enough.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: theguywitha645d on May 11, 2013, 12:53:09 PM
I would not take Leica's promo piece in Forbes too seriously. The numbers are probably wrong.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 11, 2013, 02:53:41 PM

BullCrap.

I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



If you are so certain it's BullCrap what are the number then. Your a dealer... lets hear what the "official" number is.
Whenever the manufacturers or dealers are asked they avoid the question.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 11, 2013, 03:00:07 PM
Hasselblad lenses are designed and manufactured by Fuji.
That's sad.  German camera company outsources its lenses to a Japan company when the best lenses in the world come from Germany. 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 11, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
That's sad.  German camera company outsources its lenses to a Japan company when the best lenses in the world come from Germany. 

German camera company????

Hasselblad is from Sweden. Hasselblad lenses used to be made by Carl Zeiss.

When it comes to the Hasselblad H more than just the lens is made in Japan.

Phase One Schneider lenses are made in Japan. The very exact lenses come in two labels... Schneider or Mamiya.

Zeiss 35mm DSLR lenses are manufactured by Cosina fir Zeiss. Cosina also manufactures for some other brands.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 11, 2013, 03:12:42 PM
German camera company????

Hasselblad is from Sweden. Hasselblad lenses used to be made by Carl Zeiss.

When it comes to the Hasselblad H more than just the lens is made in Japan.

Phase One Schneider lenses are made in Japan. The very exact lenses come in two labels... Schneider or Mamiya.

Zeiss 35mm DSLR lenses are manufactured by Cosina fir Zeiss. Cosina also manufactures for some other brands.
Ok, maybe I don't know enough about suppliers and need to keep my mouth shut.    :-\
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: design_freak on May 11, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
Hands fall  :(
German company  ???  Sweden !!!
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 11, 2013, 03:16:59 PM
I would not take Leica's promo piece in Forbes too seriously. The numbers are probably wrong.

I wouldn't take any of the blurb from MFD companies too seriously.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: design_freak on May 11, 2013, 03:30:24 PM
I'd really like it to be a level of 6,000 units per year. But the percentage distribution of the market may be real. Hasselblad was really very strong. But those days are gone. I'm afraid that this gap filled Leica. Group P1 I think might be even more than 50% of the market. Hasselblad will continue to lose. Although they now have a really good product. Lost trust is really hard to recover from.
The question is who will take over the percentages  :D
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 11, 2013, 04:41:01 PM
Hi,

As far as I know the Hasselblad lenses are designed by a Swedish engineer in Gothenburg, but lens group assembly is made in Japan, final assembly with Hasselblad designed shutter used to be at Hasselblad, but times are changing...

Best regards
Erik


That's sad.  German camera company outsources its lenses to a Japan company when the best lenses in the world come from Germany. 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: design_freak on May 11, 2013, 06:30:14 PM
Hi,

As far as I know the Hasselblad lenses are designed by a Swedish engineer in Gothenburg, but lens group assembly is made in Japan, final assembly with Hasselblad designed shutter used to be at Hasselblad, but times are changing...

Best regards
Erik



True
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 12, 2013, 03:18:59 AM
I would not take Leica's promo piece in Forbes too seriously. The numbers are probably wrong.

"...core medium format market is roughly 6000..."

wigglespeak
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: RVB on May 12, 2013, 03:56:26 AM
Hasselblad lenses are designed and manufactured by Fuji.

Designed by Per Nordlund and manufactured by Fuji....
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 12, 2013, 04:29:10 AM
And when I ownd a couple of 'blads I lived in Scotland and Spain and worked in many corners of the planet, so the pictures from those things belonged where?

Economics, manufacturing ability and capability rule everything. Ever looked at your humble white washing machine, only to notice that, over the years, the whites take on different hues? Not even the bits of the body all seem to come from one supplier/manufacturer and, where they do, they are obviusly produced to a variety of different painting standards.

Basically, I think that the problem with the entire MF concept in digital is this: those cameras really don't spell out medium format as in the relatively large jump in film size that the term was understood to denote back in the day. Were sensors built proportionately larger, maintaining the film format differences and the expected advantages of real estate, then I think that those able to finance such equipment would feel far happier at the debt they take on. The underlying feeling I have is that digital MF isn't: it's an approximation, a half-hearted attempt at going there at huge costs to the traveller.

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: jerome_m on May 12, 2013, 04:56:47 AM
This is an article from Hasselblad about their lens design:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf)

Quote:

With the current arrangement between Hasselblad and Fujinon, Hasselblad is much more in charge of lens design and manufacturing than they have ever been. The V System lenses were designed and manufacured to Hasselbladís specifications, but their engineers played no part in the actual lens development. While previously Carl Zeiss engineered everything including the shutter, lens design today is a collaborative effort between Hasselblad and Fujinon, with Hasselblad gradually assuming a larger role. For example, work on the latest addition to the HC lens portfolio, the HCD 4/28, started out in Gothenburg, Sweden. Using powerful software for optical design, the characteristics of the new lens could be explored in great detail well before any glass was ground. Fujinon in Saitama City, Japan, then took up the task of refining the lens design and building a prototype series that was put through its paces at Fujinonís and Hasselbladís lab.
This division of labor also extends to the manufacturing stage. The central shutter and the iris diaphragm are built and assembled in Gothenburg, then sent to Fujinon where the lenses are ground and the final assembly of the optical, mechanical, and electronic parts takes place.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Pics2 on May 12, 2013, 05:10:40 PM
"We think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year Ė worldwide, for all brands"

according to Stephan Schulz, Head of Professional Photo at Leica Camera AG, in this (http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/) interesting Forbes magazine article.

Maybe enough to fill a container?


Yes, but that's very worthy container. Like 3 pools of world's gold.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2010/11/19/how-many-olympic-sized-swimming-pools-can-we-fill-with-billionaire-gold/
Talking about 6000 units, we have to take into account that many of MF backs are sold twice (new and refurbished). Phase One is making money on their backs twice, thanks to very high prices of refurbished backs, which I find greedy. I think that refurbished backs should be way cheaper.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 13, 2013, 03:25:23 AM
This is an article from Hasselblad about their lens design:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf)

Quote:

With the current arrangement between Hasselblad and Fujinon, Hasselblad is much more in charge of lens design and manufacturing than they have ever been. The V System lenses were designed and manufacured to Hasselbladís specifications, but their engineers played no part in the actual lens development. While previously Carl Zeiss engineered everything including the shutter, lens design today is a collaborative effort between Hasselblad and Fujinon, with Hasselblad gradually assuming a larger role. For example, work on the latest addition to the HC lens portfolio, the HCD 4/28, started out in Gothenburg, Sweden. Using powerful software for optical design, the characteristics of the new lens could be explored in great detail well before any glass was ground. Fujinon in Saitama City, Japan, then took up the task of refining the lens design and building a prototype series that was put through its paces at Fujinonís and Hasselbladís lab.
This division of labor also extends to the manufacturing stage. The central shutter and the iris diaphragm are built and assembled in Gothenburg, then sent to Fujinon where the lenses are ground and the final assembly of the optical, mechanical, and electronic parts takes place.


So a guy on Sweeden does some simulation with "powerful" software and then Fuji does the real job of making the lens.....
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 13, 2013, 03:56:03 AM
It strikes me that lens design might be best left to lens designers. Tell them what you want and they'll give you what they can.

http://youtu.be/UOaUoMC6VZY

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 05:42:05 AM
I don't really understand this disapointment
Expressed in this conversation On the fact that
their lenses are made in Japan by Fijinon.

It seems that people associate it with lack of
Quality.

First, Japan is not China nor Corea.
But more seriously, maybe some should have
A look at what Fijinon has Been able to produce
For the motion and broadcast industry. They might be surprised.
And the technology involved as the component
Quality go far beyond the requirements of the
Technical sheets for still imagery.

The fact that Fujinon is making their lenses
Is rather a good news.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 13, 2013, 04:17:17 PM
(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/840519.jpg)

$99,800.00

(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/482225.jpg)

$160,700.00

Fuji knows a thing or two about lenses....
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 13, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/840519.jpg)

$99,800.00

(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/482225.jpg)

$160,700.00

Fuji knows a thing or two about lenses....

My point exactly.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: DennisWilliams on May 14, 2013, 10:12:44 PM
A year ago Calumet in Los Angeles had both H4D and Mamiya on display. In numbers. Last Friday no display no stock. No Pentax 645D.  I had cash and credit cards and I walked out. If the MF market is falling it is the store's fault.  Mercedes is having a record year. It's not a money issue.   
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: BJL on May 14, 2013, 10:37:01 PM
A year ago Calumet in Los Angeles had both H4D and Mamiya on display. In numbers. Last Friday no display no stock. No Pentax 645D. ... If the MF market is falling it is the store's fault.
I think you are confusing cause with effect: if a camera store drops multiple products in a category, it is likely caused by declining sales, not the cause of the decline. Though maybe the decline is at least in part due to the move to buying online, sometimes after customers have exploited stores as uncompensated display centers.

P. S. This is part of why I support the proposed law requiring online vendors to collect the sales tax that customers are legally required to pay anyway but often do not: I want actual actual "bricks and mortar" specialist stores for products like cameras to have some chance of surviving.


And on other topics: I agree that Fujifilm has greater credentials as a lens designer than Hasselblad, and Hasselblad is wide to continue what it has always done: working with expert lens design and manufacturing companies, rather than following the common internet forum dogma that it is always better to do evertything in-house.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 15, 2013, 04:18:22 AM
P. S. This is part of why I support the proposed law requiring online vendors to collect the sales tax that customers are legally required to pay anyway but often do not: I want actual actual "bricks and mortar" specialist stores for products like cameras to have some chance of surviving.



Couldn't agree more: nothing can replace a real shop with knowledgeable staff. I've felt the chill ever since my island wholesaler was pulled out by Big Daddy ARPI in Barcelona.

In that case, I wouldn't put it down to buying online: chat and visual observation there showed that when film and associated supplies became redundant, so did a wholesaler on the island. Thank you, digital.

Babies, bathwater.

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 15, 2013, 06:15:31 AM
I think the whole MF industry are now fossils. Look at Blackmagic's and Red's speed of innovation, making boxes on which one can screw lenses, then look at what the MF guys are doing to avoid any sense that their product is not a "camera", the MF guys are as bad as Leica. Their historical design template masks the fact that the basic component, the sensor, is now fairly cheap. 

Edmund
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JerryReed on May 15, 2013, 06:53:38 AM
Eronald,

More elaboration please on your observation, "fairly cheap."

Jerry
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 15, 2013, 07:49:29 AM
Sensors are expensive, but not that expensive. I don't know what the official pricing is these days though. If we look at the "historic" press release of the KAF-51000 50 megapixel sensor in 2008 it was $3,500 in volume to manufacturers, which ended up in the $22,000 H3DII-50.

It's mainly the low volumes (and expensive sales channels?) that makes the gear ultra-expensive rather than just expensive.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on May 15, 2013, 08:00:05 AM

 ARPI in Barcelona

Rob C

the ARPI experience, hahahaha, this shop is living prooof to what's wrong in Catalonia and maybe even explains why Spain is in trouble. Good example of boiling down world economics to a level I understand.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 10:29:50 AM
Sensors are expensive, but not that expensive. I don't know what the official pricing is these days though. If we look at the "historic" press release of the KAF-51000 50 megapixel sensor in 2008 it was $3,500 in volume to manufacturers, which ended up in the $22,000 H3DII-50.

It's mainly the low volumes (and expensive sales channels?) that makes the gear ultra-expensive rather than just expensive.


I think it's important (and more relevant) to consider the ratio of total component costs to selling price, rather than focusing on the base numerical difference.

I will also say that the sales channel cost is drastically overrated. In fact, sales channel may contribute a savings when you factor in the higher sales as a result and the technical support easement that occurs. If MFD manufacturers had to handle all technical and product support, they would be overwhelmed.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 15, 2013, 11:07:29 AM

I think it's important (and more relevant) to consider the ratio of total component costs to selling price, rather than focusing on the base numerical difference.

I will also say that the sales channel cost is drastically overrated. In fact, sales channel may contribute a savings when you factor in the higher sales as a result and the technical support easement that occurs. If MFD manufacturers had to handle all technical and product support, they would be overwhelmed.

I did not put a number on the sales channel, but you're probably right. As most low volume products MFD is a bit 'hackish' compared to mass-market products, meaning that early releases can be support-intensive. If you look at my main interest -- tech cameras -- it's also quite complicated, lens cast, integration issues etc, so they will also generate support.

A more integrated well-tested product, easier to use, and made easier to buy so you could be read reviews on the net, put-in-basket in a web shop, just like any DSLR could make it possible to increase volumes. But you would need a strong financial backing to make such a structural change, because it's risky and it's going to cost.

The 645D is something like that, and it costs $7K, about the same price as a Canon 1DX.

Concerning ratio I've heard that entry-level full-frame DSLRs have about 70% of the manufacturing cost buried in the sensor. I would guess that the $7K 645D and the $8K Aptus-II 5 has a much different ratio than the IQ180. Someone's gotta pay for the development costs though, and with low volumes it's going to be a big chunk.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 11:23:46 AM
I did not put a number on the sales channel, but you're probably right. As most low volume products MFD is a bit 'hackish' compared to mass-market products, meaning that early releases can be support-intensive. If you look at my main interest -- tech cameras -- it's also quite complicated, lens cast, integration issues etc, so they will also generate support.

A more integrated well-tested product, easier to use, and made easier to buy so you could be read reviews on the net, put-in-basket in a web shop, just like any DSLR could make it possible to increase volumes. But you would need a strong financial backing to make such a structural change, because it's risky and it's going to cost.

The 645D is something like that, and it costs $7K, about the same price as a Canon 1DX.

Concerning ratio I've heard that entry-level full-frame DSLRs have about 70% of the manufacturing cost buried in the sensor. I would guess that the $7K 645D and the $8K Aptus-II 5 has a much different ratio than the IQ180. Someone's gotta pay for the development costs though, and with low volumes it's going to be a big chunk.


As an example, the difference in our margin on Pentax 645D (which we just picked up) and Hasselblad is 5%, yet there is a 150% difference in price. I don't know that Pentax is actually making any money on the 645D.

Yes, and my point was that there are more components than just the sensor, but even the total of all components is almost always a fraction of the actual selling cost - often 1/3 to 1/5 - with many manufacturers.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 15, 2013, 12:00:10 PM
Hi,

I guess that Pentax can recycle a lot of R&D from the APS-C DSLRs. Also I have seen a suggestion that Pentax may have bought a large numbers of Kodak sensors in a single batch, thus getting a good price.

Best regards
Erik


As an example, the difference in our margin on Pentax 645D (which we just picked up) and Hasselblad is 5%, yet there is a 150% difference in price. I don't know that Pentax is actually making any money on the 645D.

Yes, and my point was that there are more components than just the sensor, but even the total of all components is almost always a fraction of the actual selling cost - often 1/3 to 1/5 - with many manufacturers.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 15, 2013, 12:31:30 PM
I think the whole MF industry are now fossils. Look at Blackmagic's and Red's speed of innovation, making boxes on which one can screw lenses, then look at what the MF guys are doing to avoid any sense that their product is not a "camera", the MF guys are as bad as Leica. Their historical design template masks the fact that the basic component, the sensor, is now fairly cheap. 

Edmund

Sometimes its easier to start from scratch and make one product with all the latest technology.   Hasselblad is still supporting all this old stuff and was even making it (V) up until recently. They have all kinds of things keeping them busy.  It's hard to know if they had more design and engineering staff available than say Black Magic anyhow, but its easy to think that they would.  Not sure its the case.  

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 12:58:13 PM

If MFD manufacturers had to handle all technical and product support, they would be overwhelmed.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

That says a lot about MFD. IF the manufacturer can't handle support there has to be something
somewhat unsatisfactory about their product. If reliability and usability is such that support issues are overwhelming
then it becomes essential for the manufacturers to to price the gear and repairs in such a way to
leave sufficient margin to attract specialized dealers that will generally be studio equipment suppliers
rather than general photography stores.

There is also the issue of how much of a salesman pitch is needed for certain items to sell.

A retail store has a line of clients to deal with and cannot be chasing down clients on forums, direct mailing, local trade shows etc etc

The cost of dealer channel in MFD is to a certain extent like car sales. The price drops significantly just by driving the car off the lot.

Just get an estimate from an MF dealer and then compare it to the price for the same gear from a volume
dealer like BH. Different, but it is an indication of the margins. I have also found that in general doing a lot of negotiation
when buying non retail store pro gear can lead to getting prices significantly lowered, even years ago before the digital revolution.
This because manufacturers want dealers to have a significant monetary incentive to sell their products.
Shifting support to their dealers is a second way to give them an incentive. When a 5 year VA warranty is sold I'm sure the dealer gets a fair share of it.

As volumes go down prices have to go up so as to maintain the manufacturing costs, the dealers and to be able to supply the product to the diminishing or simply small market.

When a camera offering goes from 12MP to 36MP with only a moderate price difference (both launch prices) it sells by itself
and they fly off the shelves. On the other hand the relatively diminishing IQ advantage of MF requires more of the skills of the salesman
to keep sales going for those sales to photographers that are not printing 60x40in.

While there is a diminishing IQ advantage there is still an advantage..... sort of like HiFi and out eyes are far more refined than our ears.
So in saying there is a diminishing IQ difference I mean no disrespect to those that require it or simply enjoy it.
However the reality in the  market is that there are simply fewer and fewer prolific publishing formats that require more
quality than is produced by much cheaper cameras and motion image is getting more and more prolific, even if it isn't story telling
buy simply motion  photography illustrating and creating a mood. Actually very fun and liberating for a photographer.

Going back to support it is important to have it. IF equipment is hellishly expensive it is even more important.
With far less expensive gear it is less important because a back up cameras would cost about the same as a repair job on an MF back.



Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 01:06:17 PM
Sometimes its easier to start from scratch and make one product with all the latest technology.   Hasselblad is still supporting all this old stuff and was even making it (V) up until recently. They have all kinds of things keeping them busy.  It's hard to know if they had more design and engineering staff available than say Black Magic anyhow, but its easy to think that they would.  Not sure its the case.  



I think it's more about Black magic being in the business of micro electronics and following/leading in that trend while Hasselblad is in the business
of trying to stay in business figuring how to scale up micro electronics to fill their image circle with  a sensor.

Leica on the other hand designed an MFish camera from the ground up, but despite it being absolutely delightful
it is far from being a huge success and reliability has not been close to Leica standards.

Also Hasselblad while not being innovative at all has been closing up it's system more and more. New backs are not compatible with previous
cameras models in the same line, despite having the same old sensor....
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 15, 2013, 01:30:55 PM
When it comes to as complicated things like electronics and software a mass-market product is generally higher quality (less bugs and quirks) than low volume products. The development cost of the mass-market product is likely much higher, as it must be fool-proof or support would be overwhelmed with the numbers it's expected to sell, and there's more custom electronics parts - expensive to develop but reduces unit cost in mass-production.

Phase One uses programmable FPGAs in their backs, which means that they can fix bugs in their hardware with firmware updates. It increases unit costs though, for mass-production it's better to make a hardwired custom circuit really test it extremely well and then mass-produce.

Making a low volume digital back as well-tested and with as much custom components as a typical mass-market DSLR would lead to unreasonable high development costs leading to astromical end customer prices. I just find it natural and no wrong in that digital backs should not be expected to be as reliable or bug-free as the typical pro DSLR, at least the first releases. Support must be there to handle it.

So what you would have to do is to have the financial backing to really invest in a product that can survive mass-market handling, and then sell it at an attractive price and get the volume up. I think this is all possible, and I think we've seen this in the video market, but the current MF players probably don't have the strength required, or are simply happy with status quo..
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 15, 2013, 01:54:00 PM
That says a lot about MFD. IF the manufacturer can't handle support there has to be something
somewhat unsatisfactory about their product. If reliability and usability is such that support issues are overwhelming
then it becomes essential for the manufacturers to to price the gear and repairs in such a way to
leave sufficient margin to attract specialized dealers that will generally be studio equipment suppliers
rather than general photography stores.

There is also the issue of how much of a salesman pitch is needed for certain items to sell.

A retail store has a line of clients to deal with and cannot be chasing down clients on forums, direct mailing, local trade shows etc etc

The cost of dealer channel in MFD is to a certain extent like car sales. The price drops significantly just by driving the car off the lot.

Just get an estimate from an MF dealer and then compare it to the price for the same gear from a volume
dealer like BH. Different, but it is an indication of the margins. I have also found that in general doing a lot of negotiation
when buying non retail store pro gear can lead to getting prices significantly lowered, even years ago before the digital revolution.
This because manufacturers want dealers to have a significant monetary incentive to sell their products.
Shifting support to their dealers is a second way to give them an incentive. When a 5 year VA warranty is sold I'm sure the dealer gets a fair share of it.







Nice argument on support, but it is flawed.  Should a company provide support for its own products or rely on dealers to do so?  In terms of a moral answer, that is up in the air.  In terms of a business model, it is much better for the company to rely on dealers for the support.  It requires them to employ less people since they only need enough "sales staff" to talk with a very limited amount of clients (the dealers) in the world market.  Likewise, having no support staff also gives them the ability to keep employment cost low.  They also do not need to create a large complicated network of sales persons throughout the world.  This does put the burden on the dealers, but it is much safer for the manufacturer, in what ever industry.  And just to expanded, I know of no one who bought a Nikon D800e directly from Nikon.  Even you Fred, I am sure walked into your local camera store (or went online) and ordered it from a company independent from Nikon.  

This is true with cars; no car company sells cars to the public.  They sell them to the dealer, which sell them to the public.  The dealer may use the name of the car company in their name, but they are still a separate entity.  And when you take your car to the dealer to be serviced, the mechanics do not work for the car companies, but for the dealer.  Yes, there is a good amount of training they may be required to go through for the right to work there, and I am sure the dealers are put through annual tests to keep the right to sell cars, but Phase probably puts their dealers through the same thing.  Of course there are exceptions to this, like BMW.  You can visit the factory if you want and drive out your car.  Watch it being finalized and ask the company questions about driving it for "no extra charge."  But what does that mean?  It means you are paying for it, it is already baked in the cake.  

If Phase provided support as opposed to the dealers, I am sure that backs would be more expensive since it is easier for a small company to service their specific geography that a single company providing service to the entire world.  If you do not believe me, talk to some facilities managers of national businesses about why they are in charge of handling the smaller construction projects (<$1M) at their locations than the main office.  It is just more cost effective.  

Insofar as B&H is concerned, I stopped shopping there in college.  After determining that the main criteria for becoming employed there was to be that community (no predigest, just a fact), not camera experience, I gave up on them.  Try getting costumer service/support from them.  Most of who works there only knows as much about the products as what is said on the packaging.  And lets nor forget that the main reason they exist to provide financial backing to that family's diamond business, the real cash cow of the owners.  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 01:59:54 PM
That says a lot about MFD. IF the manufacturer can't handle support there has to be something
somewhat unsatisfactory about their product. If reliability and usability is such that support issues are overwhelming
then it becomes essential for the manufacturers to to price the gear and repairs in such a way to
leave sufficient margin to attract specialized dealers that will generally be studio equipment suppliers
rather than general photography stores.

There is also the issue of how much of a salesman pitch is needed for certain items to sell.

A retail store has a line of clients to deal with and cannot be chasing down clients on forums, direct mailing, local trade shows etc etc

The cost of dealer channel in MFD is to a certain extent like car sales. The price drops significantly just by driving the car off the lot.

Just get an estimate from an MF dealer and then compare it to the price for the same gear from a volume
dealer like BH. Different, but it is an indication of the margins. I have also found that in general doing a lot of negotiation
when buying non retail store pro gear can lead to getting prices significantly lowered, even years ago before the digital revolution.
This because manufacturers want dealers to have a significant monetary incentive to sell their products.
Shifting support to their dealers is a second way to give them an incentive. When a 5 year VA warranty is sold I'm sure the dealer gets a fair share of it.

As volumes go down prices have to go up so as to maintain the manufacturing costs, the dealers and to be able to supply the product to the diminishing or simply small market.

When a camera offering goes from 12MP to 36MP with only a moderate price difference (both launch prices) it sells by itself
and they fly off the shelves. On the other hand the relatively diminishing IQ advantage of MF requires more of the skills of the salesman
to keep sales going for those sales to photographers that are not printing 60x40in.

While there is a diminishing IQ advantage there is still an advantage..... sort of like HiFi and out eyes are far more refined than our ears.
So in saying there is a diminishing IQ difference I mean no disrespect to those that require it or simply enjoy it.
However the reality in the  market is that there are simply fewer and fewer prolific publishing formats that require more
quality than is produced by much cheaper cameras and motion image is getting more and more prolific, even if it isn't story telling
buy simply motion  photography illustrating and creating a mood. Actually very fun and liberating for a photographer.

Going back to support it is important to have it. IF equipment is hellishly expensive it is even more important.
With far less expensive gear it is less important because a back up cameras would cost about the same as a repair job on an MF back.






No, it says a lot about ....your.....perspective.

I didn't say Phase One can't handle support. What I meant was that they would be overwhelmed unless they added support resources (essentially taking on the brunt of the support that is done by first line dealers). The support that they do provide is critical, as we rely on it for hardware repair and extreme and unique software troubleshooting, but the cases in which this is required, meaning for when we contact and interface with Phase One is in the minority of circumstances. This means they have staffing and resources to handle less of the support than if the channel was exclusive B&H or direct.

Phase One dos not need dealers to "pitch" their products. I do't know if I have ever "pitched" a product. Dealers are necessary to discuss the appropriate product for use (which can get quite complicated, someone using a digital back for fashion is very different than someone using a tech camera for landscapes). Because of the expense of these products, defining the appropriate solution is extremely important, they are not generalized, swiss army knife products, they are specialized products that work well for one application but not so well for another. Adding a $20K - $30K digital back to a cart is a recipe for disappointment when the wrong choice is made. It's an expensive mistake.

That is the bulk of what we spend our time on, making sure the most appropriate product is chosen, or even making sure that MFD is the right choice at all. It is not unusual for me to talk someone out of MFD and opt for 35mm instead. It depends on their expectation. I explain the comparative reality for them.

Is a dealer like CI more expensive than B&H for MFD? Maybe sometimes yes, other times no. At any rate, the difference in pricing does not represent or explain a significant amount of the actual price of MFD. My point is that when a knowledgeable, supportive dealer channel is taken out, the additional support costs for the manufacturer will negate most of the potential savings for direct or low service channels.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 15, 2013, 02:17:29 PM
i have never bought a camera from a dealer mainly because I don't live anywhere near one so i rely a lot on forums like this one even though many people who appear to be posting impartial advice have a hidden agenda or an axe to grind
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 02:41:28 PM
Keep in mind that dealer support isn't just about technical support. It's also customer advocacy (at least for the good dealers). In the part quarter I have had 2 instances where products were out of warranty - but not dramatically so - and have had repair charges reversed. This was not at the customer's request - this was at our initiation. The customers assumed they had repair charges coming. They were pleasantly surprised. Try getting that done direct or from online retailers.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 15, 2013, 02:54:18 PM
good point... so far I have never had to return a camera for repairs but that is just luck and I guess sooner or later my turn will come. however i have had to return quite a few faulty computer components and providing the warranty was still valid the process is usually fairly effortless: email contact with customer care to explain the problem that more often than not ends with a request to return the product that is replaced with no more questions asked. quite simple. maybe camera companies have a different dna than computer companies do?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 03:07:53 PM
Keep in mind that dealer support isn't just about technical support. It's also customer advocacy (at least for the good dealers). In the part quarter I have had 2 instances where products were out of warranty - but not dramatically so - and have had repair charges reversed. This was not at the customer's request - this was at our initiation. The customers assumed they had repair charges coming. They were pleasantly surprised. Try getting that done direct or from online retailers.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

That was nice of you to do.

I've had a Canon part replaced free of charge three years out of warranty. Dropped it off to Canon in Irvine. They said they had never seen that part fail and it should not.
The camera did look mint and had a low shot count.

I did have an issue with something I bought from BH. Had some issues with the manufacturer. I made a call to BH. They called the manufacture and got back to me
with a number and name. Problem resolved in two phone calls. When a reseller that sells massive numbers calls a manufacturer they jump.

That said a relatively samll but specialized company like yours most likely sells significant numbers for a low volume company like Phase etc so
your influence on them would be significant.

When I was starting out I did sales/demos for pro equipment in Italy. Margins had room for demo guy and dealer.


Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 03:13:52 PM
good point... so far I have never had to return a camera for repairs but that is just luck and I guess sooner or later my turn will come. however i have had to return quite a few faulty computer components and providing the warranty was still valid the process is usually fairly effortless: email contact with customer care to explain the problem that more often than not ends with a request to return the product that is replaced with no more questions asked. quite simple. maybe camera companies have a different dna than computer companies do?

Very different products. Computer products cost millions to develop but pennies to make... well relatively speaking.
Many times it's cheaper to send out an RMA and replacement rather than stay on the phone longer....
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 15, 2013, 03:21:59 PM
Computer products cost millions to develop but pennies to make

whereas cameras...  ???
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 04:19:07 PM
Computer products cost millions to develop but pennies to make

whereas cameras...  ???

Most computer components such as ram and expansion cards etc are assembled by totally automated production lines.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Doug Peterson on May 15, 2013, 04:36:36 PM
Phase One uses programmable FPGAs in their backs, which means that they can fix bugs in their hardware with firmware updates. It increases unit costs though, for mass-production it's better to make a hardwired custom circuit really test it extremely well and then mass-produce.

Most of the use of FPGA is to make improvements based on continued research after the point at which production has started.

Improvements to long exposure, high ISO, and taking advantage of the full speed of CF cards developed after the camera ships are all made easier by using a FPGA.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 15, 2013, 05:23:41 PM
Nice argument on support, but it is flawed.  Should a company provide support for its own products or rely on dealers to do so?  In terms of a moral answer, that is up in the air.  In terms of a business model, it is much better for the company to rely on dealers for the support.  It requires them to employ less people since they only need enough "sales staff" to talk with a very limited amount of clients (the dealers) in the world market.  Likewise, having no support staff also gives them the ability to keep employment cost low.  They also do not need to create a large complicated network of sales persons throughout the world.  This does put the burden on the dealers, but it is much safer for the manufacturer, in what ever industry.  And just to expanded, I know of no one who bought a Nikon D800e directly from Nikon.  Even you Fred, I am sure walked into your local camera store (or went online) and ordered it from a company independent from Nikon.  

This is true with cars; no car company sells cars to the public.  They sell them to the dealer, which sell them to the public.  The dealer may use the name of the car company in their name, but they are still a separate entity.  And when you take your car to the dealer to be serviced, the mechanics do not work for the car companies, but for the dealer.  Yes, there is a good amount of training they may be required to go through for the right to work there, and I am sure the dealers are put through annual tests to keep the right to sell cars, but Phase probably puts their dealers through the same thing.  Of course there are exceptions to this, like BMW.  You can visit the factory if you want and drive out your car.  Watch it being finalized and ask the company questions about driving it for "no extra charge."  But what does that mean?  It means you are paying for it, it is already baked in the cake.  

If Phase provided support as opposed to the dealers, I am sure that backs would be more expensive since it is easier for a small company to service their specific geography that a single company providing service to the entire world.  If you do not believe me, talk to some facilities managers of national businesses about why they are in charge of handling the smaller construction projects (<$1M) at their locations than the main office.  It is just more cost effective.  

But hold on a moment, this is a fundamentally flawed argument.

If there's something wrong with your car, yes - it goes back to the dealer and the dealer fixes it.

If there's something wrong with your Phase One back, it goes back to the dealer. Who then send it back to Copenhagen for Phase One to fix it.

Or maybe that's just in this part of the world?

Perhaps the big US dealers participating in this thread could provide some clarity on the kind of servicing they actually carry out in-house?


Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 06:14:26 PM
But hold on a moment, this is a fundamentally flawed argument.

If there's something wrong with your car, yes - it goes back to the dealer and the dealer fixes it.

If there's something wrong with your Phase One back, it goes back to the dealer. Who then send it back to Copenhagen for Phase One to fix it.

Or maybe that's just in this part of the world?

Perhaps the big US dealers participating in this thread could provide some clarity on the kind of servicing they actually carry out in-house?





I will gladly do so.

First - the number of times we receive a phone call from a client and are informed of a hardware repair needing warranty service, for which we simply ship the container for the customer is an extremely low number. Instead, the vast majority of our "technical support" cases involve quite extensive exchanges of information, painstaking diagnosis and troubleshooting, elimination of variables, etc. Many times technical support issues are resolved for our clients by us over the phone (or via email, etc). A sampling of technical support calls over a 4 week period showed about 70% of them were settings/software/usage related and about 30% of them hardware related (meaning some hardware repair potentially was needed). However even in hardware cases, before we just ship a box to Copenhagen, the unit comes to our facility and we put it through our own testing and diagnosis in an attempt to confirm/isolate/dispose of the problem. Sometimes this results in the problem being resolved. No - we do not generally perform hardware repairs on digital backs - at least we don't open them up and replace components. We do perform hardware resolution.

This is just a part of the story. Since digital backs are inherently more complex in usage than 35mm DSLR's - which for the most part, just do what they do within their own enclosed environment - a substantial amount of our technical support actually turns more into technical instruction and guidance. Our clients are constantly taking their digital backs and using them on a multitude of various camera with various lenses, all with their own unique formulas for success (and failure).

This is probably one of the most significant elements of end user experience that separates us from a B&H, etc. In many cases, we know more about a product than the manufacturer does (in terms of real world usage with all the various options). Further, this covers every model in the segment, both new and legacy models that go back generations, due to the accumulation of real world performance and usage data culled from supporting thousands of clients using these products for years.

Our clients never have to have any contact with the manufacturer at all - it's not as simple as my LCD no longer turns on, it's almost always far more complex and lends itself to interpretation, and it's never you vs the manufacturer. The most important factor in my opinion is that our mode is to solve the problem. We didn't make the product. We don't feel any need to defend it or to abstain from responsibility for the performance or lack of it. Our objective is the satisfaction of the client for the benefit of what often is a very close and long term relationship.

I hope that does shed some light.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Gigi on May 15, 2013, 06:23:57 PM
Steve -
I couldn't be more supportive of the benefit a good dealer can provide to this mix.... but there are a few things that stand out in your well written response above. Before others jump in, perhaps you could clarify:

- what is "hardware resolution" if you don't tinker with the hardware?
- for the 30% needing hardware attention, do they go back to Denmark, or are there some cases of this you can fix locally?
- do you think the accumulated "memory" of different installations at a major dealer can rival P1 own internal understandings?

It wouldn't be surprising: car dealers used to know more about the real issues with the cars than the manufacturers of limited production vehicles, and indeed, the factories tended to rely on them. One need only think of Sean Reid's input to Leica as another example of this in the photo world - sometimes the manuf. needs outside inputs.

Thanks for your inputs on this most important part of chain.

Geoff
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 06:42:25 PM
Steve -
I couldn't be more supportive of the benefit a good dealer can provide to this mix.... but there are a few things that stand out in your well written response above. Before others jump in, perhaps you could clarify:

- what is "hardware resolution" if you don't tinker with the hardware?
- for the 30% needing hardware attention, do they go back to Denmark, or are there some cases of this you can fix locally?
- do you think the accumulated "memory" of different installations at a major dealer can rival P1 own internal understandings?

It wouldn't be surprising: car dealers used to know more about the real issues with the cars than the manufacturers of limited production vehicles, and indeed, the factories tended to rely on them. One need only think of Sean Reid's input to Leica as another example of this in the photo world - sometimes the manuf. needs outside inputs.

Thanks for your inputs on this most important part of chain.

Geoff


Hi Geoff -

By "hardware resolution", what I mean is that a digital back may not have a component failure. Maybe it is an issue that a firmware update resolves, for example CF Cards not reading properly because of a compatibility issue that updated firmware takes care of. Or, because these are often used with an assortment of cameras/lenses etc, perhaps it's a focusing issue, but the issue ends up not being in the digital back itself, but a lens mounted in a lenspanel that we can adjust. There are some minor repairs that we can do (sync port repairs, CF Card door hinges, etc) that are commonly within performed in our environment.

The 30% we can't handle are typically either where the unit has to be opened up in a clean room, or where the diagnosis has been confirmed by us, but the resolution remains unclear or is likely that a repair or component replacement is necessary. And in these cases, the majority of them go to Denmark if they are Phase One, or to New York for Leaf Valeo/Aptus (Credo for now would go to Israel). Hasselblad would also go to Denmark.

I'm glad you asked about our knowledge base vs the manufacturer. I don't want to downplay the manufacturer at all. A good manufacturer partner is critical to our support. We rely on them for prompt communication and good turnaround times and appropriate repairs, as well as having another level of diagnosis for the really odd cases that we haven't seen before. Our strength is probably on the many different configurations and ways an end user would use a digital back. We're in front of these clients and working with them closely, so we see a lot. But the manufacturer is still extremely important, because on many levels, they know exactly what the product should be able to do (designed to do). This can be a dual edged sword - "Well, sorry, it isn not designed for that." "Yes, but I want to use it this way!".  :D


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 06:50:34 PM


By "hardware resolution", what I mean is that a digital back may not have a component failure. Maybe it is an issue that a firmware update resolves, for example CF Cards not reading properly because of a compatibility issue that updated

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Why is a dealer needed for doing a firmwire update? It's a pretty simple thing to do.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 07:23:41 PM
Why is a dealer needed for doing a firmwire update? It's a pretty simple thing to do.


It's not that a dealer is needed to do the firmware update, and it is not necessarily simple. A dealer would be needed to diagnose whether you should update the firmware or not. This was only listed as one of the potential hardware interventions (among numerous) we might do after we receive a digital back and diagnose the issue.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 07:51:29 PM

It's not that a dealer is needed to do the firmware update, and it is not necessarily simple. A dealer would be needed to diagnose whether you should update the firmware or not. This was only listed as one of the potential hardware interventions (among numerous) we might do after we receive a digital back and diagnose the issue.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Why on earth would a diagnoses be needed to determine if a firmwire update is required.
What diagnostic equipment do you use?
Isn't new firmware supposed to be better than the old firmware.

One would think that a customer update of the firmware should be done before sending in a camera and not having it available.

Or does flaky new firmware introduce new problems?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Gigi on May 15, 2013, 08:08:23 PM
soft touch?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 08:15:16 PM
Why on earth would a diagnoses be needed to determine if a firmwire update is required.
What diagnostic equipment do you use?
Isn't new firmware supposed to be better than the old firmware.

One would think that a customer update of the firmware should be done before sending in a camera and not having it available.

Or does flaky new firmware introduce new problems?


Because - at least on Earth - symptoms don't always point to firmware, but instead firmware may or may not be involved in the resolution.

New firmware isn't necessarily better than old. If the diagnosis of the issue hasn't obviously identified the culprit, we may indeed have a client update the firmware (with our instructions). However, it isn't always clear, and firmware updating may indeed turn out to be the solution after we receive the unit.

New firmware doesn't necessarily introduce problems, but with any firmware that is always a potential, and if the new firmware doesn't improve on anything with the model of the unit in question, then our position is there's no reason to implement it in most cases.

The point of mentioning firmware was only in response to Geoff's question about what hardware tweaking we actually do. There are many minor hardware interventions we get involved in - like repairing a PC Sync socket on a digital back, etc.

Our diagnostic equipment - which is unique in that it is state of the art and yet is fully backward compatible, is our minds. Thanks for asking.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 08:30:11 PM


The 30% we can't handle are typically either where the unit has to be opened up in a clean room, or where the diagnosis has been confirmed by us, but the resolution remains unclear or is likely that a repair or component replacement is necessary. And in these cases, the majority of them go to Denmark if they are Phase One, or to New York for Leaf Valeo/Aptus (Credo for now would go to Israel). Hasselblad would also go to Denmark.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

From the Hasselblad website:

Quote
About Imacon and Hasselblad camera back service
All repairs and service on Imacon and Hasselblad camera backs must be performed in the factory service workshop in Gothenburg, Sweden.

When you need to have your camera back serviced, you need to contact either the business who originally sold you the camera back or the Hasselblad Business Partner in your country.
They will help you locate the failure, and they will help sending your camera back for repair.
The factory service workshop strives to do the repairs in a swift and reliable way, and you will be asked for approval to continue the repair if the cost is estimated to exceed EUR 700,-.
We have defined fixed repair prices for the most common types of repair. Please refer to the "Cost estimates and fixed prices" section.
The target turnaround time for camera repairs in the factory service workshop is 10 working days + transportation to- and return from Sweden.

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/about-imacon-and-hasselblad-camera-back-service.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/about-imacon-and-hasselblad-camera-back-service.aspx)

They also have a fixed service price list:

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices.aspx)

In the US you can send to Hasselblad USA for service to Sweden.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 09:00:46 PM


The 30% we can't handle are typically either where the unit has to be opened up in a clean room, or where the diagnosis has been confirmed by us, but the resolution remains unclear or is likely that a repair or component replacement is necessary.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Cost of repair:


The cost of out of warranty repairs on digital backs that require opening the back is high. It requires an industrial clean room and someone with enough training and experience to disassemble and reassemble the back and repair the back regardless of which component has failed. Partly due to the markets served (including major intuitional and corporate users that use the back 8 hours a day 300+ days a year) the repairs are executed to extremely high standards and include a 6-month warranty; re-repairs, especially compared to other photographic equipment, is very rare (based on my experience as a point of service for such equipment).

Clean room?

Why would a clean room be needed to repair a digital back when they are not even assembled in a clean room?
Anyone can clearly see that these backs are not made in a clean room...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QOY5qy7SGY&feature=share&list=PLD22E66923E2F8D9C (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QOY5qy7SGY&feature=share&list=PLD22E66923E2F8D9C)

Hair down, wearing jewelry and no gloves. Even assembly of the sensor onto the back is done without gloves.

Even an ISO 8 clean room requires a clean room frock, hair cover and clean room footwear.
ISO 8 is the lowest clean room standard.

It's funny how MF dealers love to use buzz words and fancy language to make MFDBs sound more exotic than they are.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 09:09:33 PM
From the Hasselblad website:

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/about-imacon-and-hasselblad-camera-back-service.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/about-imacon-and-hasselblad-camera-back-service.aspx)

They also have a fixed service price list:

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/service/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices.aspx)

In the US you can send to Hasselblad USA for service to Sweden.




Sorry, meant Sweden. Anyway, not in the USA. And yes, we ship to Hasselblad USA for shipment to Sweden. Same as we ship Phase One to Melville, NY for shipment to Denmark.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 09:19:07 PM
Clean room?

Why would a clean room be needed to repair a digital back when they are not even assembled in a clean room?
Anyone can clearly see that these backs are not made in a clean room...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QOY5qy7SGY&feature=share&list=PLD22E66923E2F8D9C (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QOY5qy7SGY&feature=share&list=PLD22E66923E2F8D9C)

Hair down, wearing jewelry and no gloves. Even assembly of the sensor onto the back is done without gloves.

It's funny how MF dealers love to use buzz words and fancy language to make MFDBs sound more exotic than they are.


Fred. I'm sorry but I really don't understand. I answered Geoff's questions factually and thoroughly. It seems you're trying to argue with me and I don't understand why you're questioning me.

"Clean rooms" vary from company to company. I have been to Leaf's headquarters and their service center is not DefCon 4, but the employees (and any visitors) had to wear sanitized clothing and there was a level of sealed separation between other compartments.

That is beside the point. My point was that we at CI do not crack open digital backs and expose the inner components to the elements of our environment. Clean room isn't some fancy buzz word I like to use.

Why are you questioning me and trying to mis-characterize my explanation of our service? Why?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 09:42:18 PM

"Clean rooms" vary from company to company. I have been to Leaf's headquarters and their service center is not DefCon 4, but the employees (and any visitors) had to wear sanitized clothing and there was a level of sealed separation between other compartments.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Clean rooms are an industrial standard. There are 8 official standards. The lowest ISO 8 requires even clothing that is not present in the Phase One factory video.
If the back can be assembles without a clean room it can be serviced without a clean room. Clean rooms are required for sensor manufacturing as well as the ICs in the electronics of the backs.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 09:52:12 PM
Clean rooms are an industrial standard. There are 8 official standards. The lowest ISO 8 requires even clothing that is not present in the Phase One factory video.
If the back can be assembles without a clean room it can be serviced without a clean room. Clean rooms are required for sensor manufacturing as well as the ICs in the electronics of the backs.



You're taking my terminology too literally. Fine. A "cleaner" room exists at Leaf HQ than CI. It is beside the point. We send digital backs to the manufacturer for hardware repair, whether they employ a clean room, a cleaner room, or grandfathers closet. The point was only to establish when we send them to the manufacturer.

You didn't answer my questions about why you're questioning me. What's your problem?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 15, 2013, 09:57:38 PM
8 different levels of clean rooms?  ???

I was told there was 9!   >:(

I swear if I find the person who ruined my year by telling me that, I'll ...   :P

Well, back to photo-shopping bird crap off of a copper roof, the perfect before bed activity.   :D
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 10:14:20 PM


You didn't answer my questions about why you're questioning me. What's your problem?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Discussion in a discussion forum.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 15, 2013, 10:40:46 PM
Well, back to photo-shopping bird crap off of a copper roof, the perfect before bed activity.   :D

I recommend some very good music for those tasks ;)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 15, 2013, 11:28:26 PM
Discussion in a discussion forum.


Ah. Um hm. Call it what you like. What you are engaged in is not a discussion.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 15, 2013, 11:58:21 PM
Why is a dealer needed for doing a firmwire update? It's a pretty simple thing to do.

Yes Fred, it hasn't been but a few posts since you informed us all about how simple things are for you, and how you know everything,  and so now please tell us that you have done this many times on each of the zero digital backs that you've really used? Oh that's right!  You don't need any experience with the MFDB's since you have assumed that the process should be exactly just like the Nikon DSLR that you own.  ....  Well maybe it isn't.   On my MFDB, the firmware update included hardware changes as well.  There maybe other things the dealer do as well in terms of calibration or black frame subtraction or other things that are different between DSLR and MFDB.  Ok, so now you're informed and you can go that modeling site where everyone has a DSLR and you can be that guy who's special and different and post like you have been doing about the advantages of MFDB and why people with DSLR's should get one.  And hey presto!  you didn't even have to google this time to put some substance into your posts.  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 12:19:34 AM
Yes Fred, it hasn't been but a few posts since you informed us all about how simple things are for you, and how you know everything,  and so now please tell us that you have done this many times on each of the zero digital backs that you've really used? Oh that's right!  You don't need any experience with the MFDB's since you have assumed that the process should be exactly just like the Nikon DSLR that you own.  ....  Well maybe it isn't.   On my MFDB, the firmware update included hardware changes as well.  There maybe other things the dealer do as well in terms of calibration or black frame subtraction or other things that are different between DSLR and MFDB.  Ok, so now you're informed and you can go that modeling site where everyone has a DSLR and you can be that guy who's special and different and post like you have been doing about the advantages of MFDB and why people with DSLR's should get one.  And hey presto!  you didn't even have to google this time to put some substance into your posts.  

Sounds like you are having a bad day...

As far as updating the fimware ... this is how it went with the Phase One digital back I owned.

Went to the Phase One website and downloaded the firmware updater. Connected the back to the computer with a fresh battery.
Update executable recognizes the back and checks for available update. Update found and downloaded.
Update gets flashed to the back. All done.
Actually easier than doing it with either my Canon or Nikon.

You claim that I have never used a digital back is bullshit.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 16, 2013, 12:27:58 AM
Yes Fred, it hasn't been but a few posts since you informed us all about how simple things are for you, and how you know everything,  and so now please tell us that you have done this many times on each of the zero digital backs that you've really used? Oh that's right!  You don't need any experience with the MFDB's since you have assumed that the process should be exactly just like the Nikon DSLR that you own.  ....  Well maybe it isn't.   On my MFDB, the firmware update included hardware changes as well.  There maybe other things the dealer do as well in terms of calibration or black frame subtraction or other things that are different between DSLR and MFDB.  Ok, so now you're informed and you can go that modeling site where everyone has a DSLR and you can be that guy who's special and different and post like you have been doing about the advantages of MFDB and why people with DSLR's should get one.  And hey presto!  you didn't even have to google this time to put some substance into your posts.  


Eric, it doesn't even matter that Fred says it's easy. That was never even remotely a point about anything. I never said that a dealer had to do firmware updates, I only said that is one of the things that we may do when we have a digital back in our shop, which isn't proving any point, it is only describing what we do. But some people, like Fred, under the guise of "discussion" try to make an argument and a mis-representation out of something for their own obscure reasons.

No, firmware updating is not difficult. However, it is not mindless. Things can happen. We would never recommend our clients update their firmware without first consulting with us.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 16, 2013, 12:35:02 AM
Hi,

My understanding is that mounting the IR-filter on sensor is the part where clean room is needed. It is shown in some of the LuLa Video Journals.

My guess is that a deler can help with a lot. On the other hand, communicating with the repair facility directly may be helpful.

Best regards
Erik


Fred. I'm sorry but I really don't understand. I answered Geoff's questions factually and thoroughly. It seems you're trying to argue with me and I don't understand why you're questioning me.

"Clean rooms" vary from company to company. I have been to Leaf's headquarters and their service center is not DefCon 4, but the employees (and any visitors) had to wear sanitized clothing and there was a level of sealed separation between other compartments.

That is beside the point. My point was that we at CI do not crack open digital backs and expose the inner components to the elements of our environment. Clean room isn't some fancy buzz word I like to use.

Why are you questioning me and trying to mis-characterize my explanation of our service? Why?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 16, 2013, 12:36:45 AM
Thanks for your reply Steve -  much appreciated.

Just a comment on this clean room subject.

My IQ180 has just been to Copenhagen to have a fiber removed from underneath the sensor glass. My particular back was bought second hand, and this fiber only appeared about 6 months after I'd bought it.

It had been serviced by Phase on one previous occasion before it came into my ownership, and I can only assume that during that service,  the back was opened in a non - clean room environment and the fiber got in there.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 16, 2013, 12:43:30 AM
Ok Fred, I call you on that bluff.  Prove it. Should be simple, just show us some files from jobs with whatever back you used.  500 shots on an old p25+ that you had for a couple weeks ... a bunch of test shots of your son on a skateboard and some of in garden... that's not what I call really using a camera.    I'm not having a bad day, you are because someone is telling you what the a lot of the forum really thinks about you.   
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 16, 2013, 12:59:53 AM
i reckon until all photography is done by drones there is likely to be an on going role for all sorts of humans in the value chain yet another reason why forums like this one are worthwhile even if they are misused from time to time
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 16, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
Ok Fred, I call you on that bluff.  Prove it. Should be simple, just show us some files from jobs with whatever back you used.  500 shots on an old p25+ that you had for a couple weeks ... a bunch of test shots of your son on a skateboard and some of in garden... that's not what I call really using a camera.    I'm not having a bad day, you are because someone is telling you what the forum really thinks about you.

If the forum confirms you are speaking for it, I'll be first out of the door.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 01:08:10 AM
Ok Fred, I call you on that bluff.  Prove it. Should be simple, just show us some files from jobs with whatever back you used.  500 shots on an old p25+ that you had for a couple weeks ... a bunch of test shots of your son on a skateboard and some of in garden... that's not what I call really using a camera.    I'm not having a bad day, you are because someone is telling you what the forum really thinks about you.

Yea I'm really eager to put some of my clients files here on the forum for you to trash talk them.
Well I'll take a look at the paperwork and see if I have any where I have a sufficient release.

Personally I do not care in the slightest what you think of me.
You can try to paint me as some phoney looney if you wish but I'm actually here to share my experiences and quite eager to share gear too.
Tomorrow a guy is dropping off a camera and a few lenses that I lent him to put his IQ160 on.
Never met him before except exchanging a couple of messages on the forum.
Seemed like a good guy and I figured he could use a backup till he got settled.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 16, 2013, 01:26:42 AM
Fred,
I've never trash talked your own photos. It's the only thing you've posted that I got anything from.  But you did post the same few images like 100 times already. I think you've got skill as a photographer. But I've noticed that you can't stop your self from some backhanded comments on other people's work - the kind where you let them know you could have done better.   It's too bad you didn't spend your time posting about different lighting or film techniques instead of consistently attacking MFDB makers and the their products, or show us some shots with the different fuji 680 lenses or something that you know well.   People have tried to give you hints...   and well, it appears you have folded rather than show your cards on the MFDB challenge.

 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 01:49:49 AM
But I've noticed that you can't stop your self from some backhanded comments on other people's work - the kind where you let them know you could have done better.

?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 16, 2013, 02:11:13 AM
The dealer model may be nice and all, where it works. The European market is so fragmented (many small countries, language barriers etc) so what you often get is a one-man company 1000 km away whose main income is not from the products they represent. Service can be crap, it really can. When I turned to my "local" dealer for support for my Leaf back it turned out that he had sort of stopped actively selling Leaf backs (he preferred Phase One) and had an out of date price list, also overpriced from favourable currency conversion and did not know how the repair process works. After complaining for a while I was allowed by Leaf to change dealer to someone else, got one on recommendation and they seem good apart from that they don't communicate that often. Like once every four weeks. Support goes rather slow that way.

By far, the best source of support for me has been this forum, but you don't do repairs here, unfortunately :)

When it's this dysfunctional I really think one should look into other models or complementary models to the traditional dealer. I think one should shut down those one-man dealerships and instead concentrate to fewer but larger ones, some which has a strong web presence and can sell and support remotely, and the manufacturer should have some process to ensure the quality of the dealers. Currently quality control seems to be non-existent (at least with my manufacturer), and still they strongly urge you to turn to your geographically nearest dealer, and if you live in the wrong place that'll be a punishment.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 02:31:25 AM
The dealer model may be nice and all, where it works. The European market is so fragmented (many small countries, language barriers etc) so what you often get is a one-man company 1000 km away whose main income is not from the products they represent. Service can be crap, it really can. When I turned to my "local" dealer for support for my Leaf back it turned out that he had sort of stopped actively selling Leaf backs (he preferred Phase One) and had an out of date price list, also overpriced from favourable currency conversion and did not know how the repair process works. After complaining for a while I was allowed by Leaf to change dealer to someone else, got one on recommendation and they seem good apart from that they don't communicate that often. Like once every four weeks. Support goes rather slow that way.

By far, the best source of support for me has been this forum, but you don't do repairs here, unfortunately :)

When it's this dysfunctional I really think one should look into other models or complementary models to the traditional dealer. I think one should shut down those one-man dealerships and instead concentrate to fewer but larger ones, some which has a strong web presence and can sell and support remotely, and the manufacturer should have some process to ensure the quality of the dealers. Currently quality control seems to be non-existent (at least with my manufacturer), and still they strongly urge you to turn to your geographically nearest dealer, and if you live in the wrong place that'll be a punishment.

Toger

I think you are right about forums and one should have the right to deal directly with the manufacturer.

My daughter was being dicked around by the Mercedes dealer on a recall. Mercedes were being dicks too.
I did some searching on forums and found a few users that had dealt with the same recalls. One provided me with copies of their
recall paper work. Armed with that I told Mercedes to get their act together. One posting on the Mercedes Facebook page with the recall internal code number
and hey presto Mercedes instructed the dealership to go ahead with the recall pronto.

The power of forums.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 16, 2013, 09:52:02 AM
I really do not know what this proves?  Maybe that your daughter bought her car from a not so good dealer.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 16, 2013, 11:41:02 AM
thanks Klaben for pointing this out - always good to know on which side the bread is buttered
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: KevinGSaunders on May 16, 2013, 11:52:49 AM
I live a zillion miles from any dealer and I have to agree that the dealers and Yair from Leaf have been tremendously helpful here. Without them I would be totally lost and my perspective is, while the market is small, if I can take advantage of this and provide imagery that others can't (or will have to try really hard to) compete, it is a fair tradeoff. My hat is off to all those who help this small group of lunatics who are pushing the envelope.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 16, 2013, 01:08:41 PM
what I mean is it is good to know the dealers offer tremendous support to this forum
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 16, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
I really do not know what this proves?  Maybe that your daughter bought her car from a not so good dealer.

Not trying to prove anything. I just brought it up as a reinforcement of the usefulness of forums and social media to the enduser.
I'm not comparing the Mercedes "stealership" behavior to the photo dealers and repair people here. 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 17, 2013, 09:38:06 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the dealer experience with MF was the worst part of the purchase.

On the other hand company reps, those I've met, are very good, and wonderful for the customers.

Maybe the Leica boutique experience is the way to go for MF.

Edmund
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: sgilbert on May 17, 2013, 11:17:40 AM
Edmund,

I think that if you've had a bad dealer experience, you should either name the dealer, or shut up about it.

Is it your claim that every dealer is bad?  Of course the Leica experience would better.  Leica is the bestest.

SG

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: telyt on May 17, 2013, 11:34:26 AM
...  Of course the Leica experience would better.  Leica is the bestest.

Taking this somewhat out of context, I have to say my recent experience with Leica USA's service department lives up to the 'bestest' description.  I sent my R8 body to Leica USA for service recently - this is a 17-year-old model from a discontinued product line - and the personal service, attention to detail and to my particular needs has been exemplary.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gigdagefg on May 17, 2013, 11:37:27 AM
I  treasure my Hasselblad dealer. his name is Peter Lorber in boca ration fl
He is always available and if he doesn't know the answer to one of my many questions, he immediately gets back to me with the correct information
Stanley
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: TMARK on May 17, 2013, 11:45:55 AM
Taking this somewhat out of context, I have to say my recent experience with Leica USA's service department lives up to the 'bestest' description.  I sent my R8 body to Leica USA for service recently - this is a 17-year-old model from a discontinued product line - and the personal service, attention to detail and to my particular needs has been exemplary.

It is night and day from what it was even three years ago.  Really good service on bodies.  Quick turnaround.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 17, 2013, 11:53:27 AM
It is night and day from what it was even three years ago.  Really good service on bodies.  Quick turnaround.

This is really good news to read.  I loved my Leicas but wasn't happy with the long waits on routine service. 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: TMARK on May 17, 2013, 12:16:42 PM
This is really good news to read.  I loved my Leicas but wasn't happy with the long waits on routine service. 

Lenses take longer unless it is really basic service, and depends on the complexity of the lens.  Major service means a trip to Solms.

My M9 was there for three days, RF adjust and LCD (in the VF) replacement.  Really nice service.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 17, 2013, 01:35:10 PM
The last time I had occasion to use Leica service it took over 5 months to get my camera body back, so this sounds like a real improvement.   I had occasion to see and use a M240 and M Monochrome last month and I was really impressed with them. I thought the EVF for the m240 was really pretty cool considering how it could zoom in and highlight the areas in focus - focusing with the rangefinder is fine of course, but with a fast glass like the noctilux fitted in low light being able to nail focus with the EVF was really cool.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: TMARK on May 17, 2013, 02:23:50 PM
The last time I had occasion to use Leica service it took over 5 months to get my camera body back, so this sounds like a real improvement.   I had occasion to see and use a M240 and M Monochrome last month and I was really impressed with them. I thought the EVF for the m240 was really pretty cool considering how it could zoom in and highlight the areas in focus - focusing with the rangefinder is fine of course, but with a fast glass like the noctilux fitted in low light being able to nail focus with the EVF was really cool.

leica told me they beefed up their operations so that at least bodies could be serviced quickly.  They seem to be able to do lens repairs, just not on the exotic FLE and Noctilux lenses.  if they can do them in nj turn around is quick, although I haven't sent them a lens.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: TMARK on May 17, 2013, 02:26:47 PM
The last time I had occasion to use Leica service it took over 5 months to get my camera body back, so this sounds like a real improvement.   I had occasion to see and use a M240 and M Monochrome last month and I was really impressed with them. I thought the EVF for the m240 was really pretty cool considering how it could zoom in and highlight the areas in focus - focusing with the rangefinder is fine of course, but with a fast glass like the noctilux fitted in low light being able to nail focus with the EVF was really cool.

Oh yeah, the M240 is really great.  It is a thick file like the d800, but with the M form and M lenses.  Shot with one for an afternoon.  It is different than the M9 files, in a good way.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 17, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
This is really good news to read.  I loved my Leicas but wasn't happy with the long waits on routine service. 

Might be that Leica will soon be a "pro" brand again - they could do a loaner replacement easily now they have boutiques in every major city in Europe.

Edmund
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 18, 2013, 04:32:54 AM
Might be that Leica will soon be a "pro" brand again - they could do a loaner replacement easily now they have boutiques in every major city in Europe.

Edmund


Wouldn't it be nice if 'loaners' were redundant, that cameras just worked... and worked, and you could afford two, just in case.

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: telyt on May 18, 2013, 09:11:40 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if 'loaners' were redundant, that cameras just worked... and worked, and you could afford two, just in case.

From my experience, loaners will be redundant once I stop doing stupid things.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 18, 2013, 11:03:17 AM
maybe humans will also be redundant once they stop doing stupid things
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market - Leica marketshare of 20% ?
Post by: hasselbladfan on May 18, 2013, 12:06:51 PM
..... they have boutiques in every major city in Europe ......


Now I understand how they get to a 20% marketshare.

The number of Leica stores / corners has mushroomed in the last years (just in Geneva, Switzerland they have 3). Each of them has a Leica S. Since they are all independent retailers, I am sure Leica books these as sales! But this does not mean they are sold to a photographer. In all stores they told me they had not sold a single Leica S since they opened the Leica corner (mostly M's).  ;)

This Forbes article looks very much as publicity to push these merchandise to the more wealthy ones.
 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: peterv on May 18, 2013, 12:38:19 PM
You're right, of course it's marketing speak, however, the S is a fine camera nonetheless.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: MrSmith on May 18, 2013, 01:34:44 PM
It wouldn't surprise me to see Leica copying H-Blad and start pushing the S in the luxury press.
Just need a few more mentions in the upper class luxury blog-sphere and the transition from imaging company to luxury bauble peddler will be complete

http://www.tinaloves.com/2013/04/introducing-the-hasselblad-lunar/ (http://www.tinaloves.com/2013/04/introducing-the-hasselblad-lunar/)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 18, 2013, 07:15:09 PM
BTW the number of MF sold yearly is more like 12-15k and that includes Leica,Pentax, Phase,Leaf and Hassy and that came from a reliable source. Don't ask me who either. Leica is more like 10 percent which is 1500 per year and that was Leicas estimate when it was first released. Give them credit they pretty much hit there numbers but its also true many of every brand is dealer or retail stock as well. The S system is growing but at a snails pace since it took at least 3 years to get a decent set of lens numbers and there sensor is also getting old in the tooth. It's a nice system but like Pentax a lot if Pros have not got onboard simple because of backups, software, service. There really is no cheap backup body like getting a old used Mamiya, Contax or Blad for under a grand to throw in your bag. Obviously also depends how you look at backups as well . For many a Nikon or Canon is available. Regardless of what some think is true it still is growing but its also in a cycle and it has slowed down some. But used has picked up. Also part of that is nothing really new either to upgrade too. Phase seems to be the only one at the moment with some new meat to buy. Rumors are Pentax is coming with a new 645. Leica rumors a new sensor maybe next year. Phase a new body. Hassy has the H5 but question marks go with them. Leaf seems to follow Phase on back technology. Phase has 3 brands . Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and serve different markets.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 18, 2013, 07:21:07 PM
We should add here Cambo, Alpa and Arca seem to be having great success lately as a lot if interest has really picked up with tech cams. Now with that growth there is growth in 35 and Mirrorless as well. From my seat the industry at large seems to be growing and doing well and I did not even touch in video and Pro and Prosumer cams are really growing.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 18, 2013, 11:41:41 PM
Regardless of what some think is true it still is growing but its also in a cycle and it has slowed down some.

That wouldn't seem to tally with what Steve said earlier in the thread?

Quote
I know for a fact what some of the numbers were for various manufacturers in given years. I expect 6,000 units today to be a reasonable estimate, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. It is probably less than the peak years of MFD sales, which to my estimation likely parked in the 8,000 - 9,000 range. If today is only down 15% - 20% I consider that quite a compelling argument in favor of the staying power of MFD, considering the advances 35mm has made in that same timespan.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 19, 2013, 01:55:20 AM
Hi,

12-15k sounds more reasonable than 7500, hope you are right. The technical cameras are interesting stuff and one of the reasons to go with an MFDB instead MF DSLR.

Best regards
Erik

BTW the number of MF sold yearly is more like 12-15k and that includes Leica,Pentax, Phase,Leaf and Hassy and that came from a reliable source. Don't ask me who either. Leica is more like 10 percent which is 1500 per year and that was Leicas estimate when it was first released. Give them credit they pretty much hit there numbers but its also true many of every brand is dealer or retail stock as well. The S system is growing but at a snails pace since it took at least 3 years to get a decent set of lens numbers and there sensor is also getting old in the tooth. It's a nice system but like Pentax a lot if Pros have not got onboard simple because of backups, software, service. There really is no cheap backup body like getting a old used Mamiya, Contax or Blad for under a grand to throw in your bag. Obviously also depends how you look at backups as well . For many a Nikon or Canon is available. Regardless of what some think is true it still is growing but its also in a cycle and it has slowed down some. But used has picked up. Also part of that is nothing really new either to upgrade too. Phase seems to be the only one at the moment with some new meat to buy. Rumors are Pentax is coming with a new 645. Leica rumors a new sensor maybe next year. Phase a new body. Hassy has the H5 but question marks go with them. Leaf seems to follow Phase on back technology. Phase has 3 brands . Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and serve different markets.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 02:26:03 AM
That wouldn't seem to tally with what Steve said earlier in the thread?


My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that. Any info further is just bait for the trolls, I don't feed trolls. The number really has no meaning anyway as all that really matters is growth, technology advancements, and the ability to put new product in our hands instead of ripping it apart as many seem to think that does some good which it truly does not. We all want new and improved product to choice from. You don't get that without us supporting the OEMs , that does not man burying issues but finding solutions is much more beneficial to us shooters in the end.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 19, 2013, 03:04:28 AM
It's a nice system but like Pentax a lot if Pros have not got onboard simple because of backups, software, service. There really is no cheap backup body like getting a old used Mamiya, Contax or Blad for under a grand to throw in your bag.

Backups....?
Your saying that Pros are not buying Pentax 645D cameras because they can't get a backup.

Lets see.

Phase One IQ140 body and normal lens  $ 23,990

Pentax 645D  Body and lens $ 8,400

That's with no backup.

Add a backup body.

Phase One IQ140 body, normal lens and cheap old backup body $ 24,990 ish

Pentax 645D Body, lens and second complete body and lens  $ 16,800

Seems to me if backup is important the choice would be the Pentax hands down and that's even without considering dual memory cards and far superior weather sealing.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 19, 2013, 03:30:42 AM
My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that.

Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?




Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 09:41:08 AM
Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?






I owe no one nothing lets make that perfectly clear. And yes I do have the right to walk away. Don't like it sorry .
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 10:08:15 AM
Backups....?
Your saying that Pros are not buying Pentax 645D cameras because they can't get a backup.

Lets see.

Phase One IQ140 body and normal lens  $ 23,990

Pentax 645D  Body and lens $ 8,400

That's with no backup.

Add a backup body.

Phase One IQ140 body, normal lens and cheap old backup body $ 24,990 ish

Pentax 645D Body, lens and second complete body and lens  $ 16,800

Seems to me if backup is important the choice would be the Pentax hands down and that's even without considering dual memory cards and far superior weather sealing.

You seem to grab everything out of context but of course that is what trolls do . There are many reasons and your fully aware of them but again you pick and select what makes you look the best and not always with facts. Neither the Leica nor Pentax has a efficient tethering program on release of there cams for instance. Pentax you could not even buy outside of Japan and still maybe has two new lenses built for this cam. Leica had one or two lenses on release and finally after 3 or 4 years has about 7. These are just a few examples like a backup body that make buy decisions. Of course we all many decisions are made into buying any system and as always there is no single perfect system not even your Nikon which I BTW I shoot also. Does Pentax offer you a free loaner system next day , no they do not. Leica does offer that as well as Phase. I believe Hassy does as well . Put simply IMHO Pentax offers the least available options,products, service and dealer support for the working Pro. Leica is doing much better on that but again it has taken time to get there. I just recommended to a good friend to get the Pentax but it is his hobby and he wants to get into MF which is great . The Pentax will serve him well and as time has marched of a lot of Pros have jumped onboard the Pentax system. With that now they can buy it here in the states and have some support. I like the Pentax a  lot and I came within inches of buying the Leica S but not until today would feel comfortable about putting all my eggs in one basket with them. But it does seem like they are doing well and that's great. I'm looking forward to what Pentax does next but its been pretty quiet from them too. Lowering prices does give some clues as too maybe something soon. I hope so

See Fred its about the format not the brand that counts here. I own the Nikon very nice  system with very good image quality but its not the end all and its not MF which I personally have done a lot of testing on them not steal tests from others and post about it that your not even sure what they did. I owned 5 backs and have posted many tests on them.

See we ALL know you have a bone to pick with Phase and I understand a bit of that but you refuse to take blame on yourself. You buy off eBay you avoid all dealers than crucify them daily for no good reason except to be that itch in people's jocks. You blame Phase for the issues you may have had or not meeting your expectations. You than say in a post here to buy direct from the OEMS but you crucify them daily.

I'm sure you will come back with some more tests more quotes and more bullshit to make yourself look good. We are expecting it trust me. You never fail to deliver a post that makes Fred look wise.


Btw posted here many times from our dealer friends the amount of backs that have truly failed on there own without some user doing something to it is very low. You even admit in some posts here that these backs are like tanks . I owned 5 of them and outside a delivery issue with a new one never had a problem and I had a loaner the next morning by my dealer and replacement back within a week. My IQ 160 to be exact. Avoiding buying from dealers IMHO is a bad investment. Even used there is a grace period. Not that I care where people buy from its there money but I always recommend a dealer as mine has always been there for me and yes Steve's company he works for is my dealer and they always have been there for me. So I'm very dealer friendly as it is your best support you can get.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 19, 2013, 10:43:06 AM
interesting to see how this thread is morphing from one about numbers into one about other factors apart from the usual technical ones that differentiate the different camera formats such as support, role of dealers, type of end user, etc
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 10:57:34 AM
interesting to see how this thread is morphing from one about numbers into one about other factors apart from the usual technical ones that differentiate the different camera formats such as support, role of dealers, type of end user, etc

Numbers mean nothing without growth behind them. Numbers are meaningless without growing the business and these OEMs need growth to survive. So does any business for that matter. There is no secret sauce here, products need to sell to make new products. They need our support for that growth , don't we all want new and innovative product in our hands. Watching these businesses taking nose dives will never get that in our hands. We need solutions and innovation not ripping these companies to the core. I don't shoot Hassy but I sure as hell don't want to see them fail either. New investors and still no growth outside the H5 makes me nervous.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 11:39:33 AM
Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?






Going back to this . I never said this was a verifiable number either for all I know it could be more marketing spin. If I could verify that would be nice but without getting real numbers from each company which is next to impossible and you know that than in many ways its a best guess answer. I really dislike your tone here as its pretty insulting which I do not deserve either since when do I spill lies and deceit in these forums. I'm a working Pro father of 2 a husband run 2 businesses and have a wife with breast, lung and brain cancer in the last 3 years do you really think I give a shit about these stupid debates and worse having to read a bunch of BS from trolls. Do you really think I care. I do not but I do care deeply about this industry that has supported my art for the last 35 years plus and I will support it the best way I can because I do care what is written in these forums and the deceit runs wild. I would spend half my life trying to correct this crap. I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with. Go verify Leicas numbers for us if it matters to you.

BTW Steve is a dear friend and he is a very knowledgable guy and on top of that one of the best around and this has zero to do with what he says. Want to make that perfectly clear.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 19, 2013, 11:40:21 AM
I owe no one nothing lets make that perfectly clear. And yes I do have the right to walk away. Don't like it sorry .

Well of course, everyone can pick up their ball and walk off the field whenever they want.

Cheerio!
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 11:49:23 AM
Well of course, everyone can pick up their ball and walk off the field whenever they want.

Cheerio!

Well not exactly you can walk away from people that make insulting comments as you have done and stupid debates that just feed negativity. I'm not into being negative about this industry but here to support it as a consumer.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 19, 2013, 12:04:25 PM
Well not exactly you can walk away from people that make insulting comments as you have done and stupid debates that just feed negativity. I'm not into being negative about this industry but here to support it as a consumer.
I've been insulting? Where?

You've got the support thing all upside down by the way. The industry - and those associated with it - should be supporting their customers, not expecting the customers to support them.

Just for balance, I should point out that I have just received my IQ180 back from Copenhagen via my local dealer. I bought my back off Ebay. For around $7.5K less than any dealer would sell me one at the time.

It was covered under the +1 year warranty that the previous owner had purchased. A warranty that transferred to me.

Having said that, how about a little less of the FUD sowing regarding buying backs from sources other than dealers? Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2013, 12:19:21 PM
Guy,

 I'm really sorry to hear about your wife.

 Re. the debate about dealers, it seems there are a some effective and honest people eg. Steve and Doug, who provide really useful backoffice services for pros, and they are known here by word of mouth, and then there are some unpleasant characters who live of their entitlement to geographical areas, and who sometimes make use of good business skills or good connections to land institutional contracts with museums etc. Last, not least there are places like B&H who sell MF eg. Hasselblad with competence, just like they sell Nikon and Canon with competence, but without providing any specific services at all. But all of the above get the same margins, and I don't see why they should.

Edmund


Going back to this . I never said this was a verifiable number either for all I know it could be more marketing spin. If I could verify that would be nice but without getting real numbers from each company which is next to impossible and you know that than in many ways its a best guess answer. I really dislike your tone here as its pretty insulting which I do not deserve either since when do I spill lies and deceit in these forums. I'm a working Pro father of 2 a husband run 2 businesses and have a wife with breast, lung and brain cancer in the last 3 years do you really think I give a shit about these stupid debates and worse having to read a bunch of BS from trolls. Do you really think I care. I do not but I do care deeply about this industry that has supported my art for the last 35 years plus and I will support it the best way I can because I do care what is written in these forums and the deceit runs wild. I would spend half my life trying to correct this crap. I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with. Go verify Leicas numbers for us if it matters to you.

BTW Steve is a dear friend and he is a very knowledgable guy and on top of that one of the best around and this has zero to do with what he says. Want to make that perfectly clear.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 12:26:48 PM
I've been insulting? Where?

You've got the support thing all upside down by the way. The industry - and those associated with it - should be supporting their customers, not expecting the customers to support them.

Just for balance, I should point out that I have just received my IQ180 back from Copenhagen via my local dealer. I bought my back off Ebay. For around $7.5K less than any dealer would sell me one at the time.

It was covered under the +1 year warranty that the previous owner had purchased. A warranty that transferred to me.

Having said that, how about a little less of the FUD sowing regarding buying backs from sources other than dealers? Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.

I did say I don't care where people buy there stuff your money not mine but I also said I support the dealer network . It's been good for me both in purchasing and support even on a Friday evening late in Miami I got support to help fix a body issue. To me that kind of support deserves my support is when these guys come to the plate and bat for you. I won't back off those comments about dealers because I believe in what they do regardless of price. When you neck is on the line sometimes the money is very secondary. Now we are also talking about a different country here which may have a lot to do with huge price differences as well. That maybe the case and I can only speak for here in the US. Buying from friends and forum members I never said was a bad way to go since most of the time a warranty is involved and a certain level of comfort with these folks is a good thing. Nothing wrong with that and for a lot of hobbyists it certainly is a nice option but on a loaner level support level for a working Pro having these things readily available to you maybe just more important. Depends on needs and also your comfort level. A back for instance being built like a tank is maybe pretty safe a body on the other hand is less safe buying used. We all know bodies will go down easier and faster since many parts both electrical and mechanical are involved. Seriously I know money is very important to all of us both as Pros and non Pros but in some ways its a secondary issue as well. These things are expensive and I know we all look to save. Myself I'm more comfortable with a dealer. My Nikon for instance I know I'm largely on my own for service and support and that maybe fine for a 3k camera. But for me with big money on the line my comfort level is having a dealer. That's my comfort level may not be yours or anyone else's .
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 19, 2013, 12:29:21 PM
Guy,

 I'm really sorry to hear about your wife.

 Re. the debate about dealers, it seems there are a some effective and honest people eg. Steve and Doug, who provide really useful backoffice services for pros, and they are known here by word of mouth, and then there are some unpleasant characters who live of their entitlement to geographical areas, and who sometimes make use of good business skills or good connections to land institutional contracts with museums etc. Last, not least there are places like B&H who sell MF eg. Hasselblad with competence, just like they sell Nikon and Canon with competence, but without providing any specific services at all. But all of the above get the same margins, and I don't see why they should.

Edmund



 I know Edmund there are some real dip wits in the dealer business as well and it is unfortunate no question when this level of investment is on the line. We as buyers have to weigh those factors. Totally understand you comment. We all can't have dealers in our part of the world that match some of the folks here. Sometimes I forget that as well.

Thanks she is doing well and we are riding on all clear on all fronts right now. Hope it stays like this. It's been hell.


Speaking of margins its pretty sad, retailers and dealers get only 3 percent on Nikon products. So a 3 k product only nets you a 100 dollars. It's amazing how the brick and mortar places even survive. Maybe some good news for them is sales tax on Internet purchases will bring us back to our local shops. I still support my local store here in Arizona but they will certainly get all my Nikon business if this becomes the case. I'm not sure where that law is at right now but it will be interesting.

If there is a good debate topic this certainly is one for sure.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 19, 2013, 02:18:10 PM
I don't have the time for stupid debates and was this not all marketing spin from Leica to start this thread to begin with

why should consumers loyally support oem's if the figures they feed us are bs?

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 19, 2013, 02:38:23 PM
You seem to grab everything out of context but of course that is what trolls do . There are many reasons and your fully aware of them but again you pick and select what makes you look the best and not always with facts. Neither the Leica nor Pentax has a efficient tethering program on release of there cams for instance. Pentax you could not even buy outside of Japan and still maybe has two new lenses built for this cam. Leica had one or two lenses on release and finally after 3 or 4 years has about 7. These are just a few examples like a backup body that make buy decisions. Of course we all many decisions are made into buying any system and as always there is no single perfect system not even your Nikon which I BTW I shoot also. Does Pentax offer you a free loaner system next day , no they do not. Leica does offer that as well as Phase. I believe Hassy does as well . Put simply IMHO Pentax offers the least available options,products, service and dealer support for the working Pro. Leica is doing much better on that but again it has taken time to get there. I just recommended to a good friend to get the Pentax but it is his hobby and he wants to get into MF which is great . The Pentax will serve him well and as time has marched of a lot of Pros have jumped onboard the Pentax system. With that now they can buy it here in the states and have some support. I like the Pentax a  lot and I came within inches of buying the Leica S but not until today would feel comfortable about putting all my eggs in one basket with them. But it does seem like they are doing well and that's great. I'm looking forward to what Pentax does next but its been pretty quiet from them too. Lowering prices does give some clues as too maybe something soon. I hope so

See Fred its about the format not the brand that counts here. I own the Nikon very nice  system with very good image quality but its not the end all and its not MF which I personally have done a lot of testing on them not steal tests from others and post about it that your not even sure what they did. I owned 5 backs and have posted many tests on them.

See we ALL know you have a bone to pick with Phase and I understand a bit of that but you refuse to take blame on yourself. You buy off eBay you avoid all dealers than crucify them daily for no good reason except to be that itch in people's jocks. You blame Phase for the issues you may have had or not meeting your expectations. You than say in a post here to buy direct from the OEMS but you crucify them daily.

I'm sure you will come back with some more tests more quotes and more bullshit to make yourself look good. We are expecting it trust me. You never fail to deliver a post that makes Fred look wise.


Btw posted here many times from our dealer friends the amount of backs that have truly failed on there own without some user doing something to it is very low. You even admit in some posts here that these backs are like tanks . I owned 5 of them and outside a delivery issue with a new one never had a problem and I had a loaner the next morning by my dealer and replacement back within a week. My IQ 160 to be exact. Avoiding buying from dealers IMHO is a bad investment. Even used there is a grace period. Not that I care where people buy from its there money but I always recommend a dealer as mine has always been there for me and yes Steve's company he works for is my dealer and they always have been there for me. So I'm very dealer friendly as it is your best support you can get.

I made a point regarding one of your points. Rather than respond to the actual numbers and the cost of a complete backup (Pentax) vs a partial backup (Phase One) you choose to make a personal attack, not to mention accuse Gerald of insulting you that all of us can see was not the case.

You also might want to be a bit careful about publicly accusing someone of stealing.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2013, 02:42:29 PM
Thanks she is doing well and we are riding on all clear on all fronts right now. Hope it stays like this. It's been hell.


Speaking of margins its pretty sad, retailers and dealers get only 3 percent on Nikon products. So a 3 k product only nets you a 100 dollars. It's amazing how the brick and mortar places even survive. Maybe some good news for them is sales tax on Internet purchases will bring us back to our local shops. I still support my local store here in Arizona but they will certainly get all my Nikon business if this becomes the case. I'm not sure where that law is at right now but it will be interesting.

If there is a good debate topic this certainly is one for sure.

I like hearing the good news too :)

If we don't have dealers, we should insist on manufacturer support ...


Edmund
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 12:05:28 PM
Well that's just not how discussion and debate work. You don't get to walk off and request that's the end of the conversation.

Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place. But what we have here as a Steve who, as a dealer, presumably has some pretty good insight into the market, and you - who, with your connections also presumably have a very good insight - claiming totally the opposite thing.

It is quite possible that you're referring to different measurements of course. Perhaps Steve is referring to sales of new backs only, and you are referring to sales of new and re-furbed. Who knows? Well, nobody is going to have a clue with so much obfuscation going on.

What I find simply astonishing is the attitude shown by "insiders"who should be doing everything they can to reassure those considering buying into MFDB that they're making a wise choice.

We're talking about people considering "investing" anything from $10K to $100K and up in their "support" of the OEMs.

Don't you (and Steve) think that those people - and I most certainly include myself in that group - deserve a little more respect than to read conflicting "well, I'm well connected and in the know and you're just going to have to trust me on this when I say the market is growing/declining [delete as appropriate]" statements of "fact", and then to be told that's the end of the discussion? That any further information is bait for trolls?




My estimates are always about new product sales, in units sold, not also including 2nd hand, etc. Keep in mind when I offer a number, I am not stating it as a fact (nor have I ever). It is an educated guess on my part, based on my past employment with the following companies:

Imacon
SinarBron Imaging
PPR
Phase One
Capture Integration
14 years experience selling digital backs from Sinar/Jenoptik/Leaf/Mamiya/Imacon/Hasselblad/Phase One

I've been in corporate meetings with my employees discussing numbers, I've been in dealer/partner meetings with manufacturers discussing numbers, as one of the largest (and widest reaching) focused dealers for these products worldwide, I also have a decent sense of how things are out there in the marketplace.

All this only contributes to my estimation of the market and the performance of the market.

I will add I've never felt glad after the fact about providing this information, for the way my experience gets twisted to suit someone's agenda or mis-represented perspective.

When you talk about "respect", that seems to imply that there is disrespect tendered in the way that marketshare, sales numbers, etc, is provided. I don't see how that can be the case. I do not factually know the numbers. I can offer an educated guesstimate, I have offered educated guesstimates, and it's either like members don't believe me or they just pretend to not hear me. I don't have a lot of control over that.

I'm also going to say that the only reason that I even offer up any guess's is because some like to stir the pot of doom, and then see the masses run in fear. I think some actually take glee out of it. Does medium format digital have a future is a legitimate question. Just the same as one could question any number of imaging segments, products, etc. It gets taken a step further - true, because of the estimable cost, but also because there are some who provoke and mis-represent. Which leads to me feeling the need to at least share my experience and my perspective on the market place.

I get it. But I'm also bullish on medium format digital. Many could just invest in 35mm DSLR, but clearly they want more, they desire something different. Do they not? Is this not relevant? Is this not important? A medium format digital camera is not an easy camera system to use and get results from, in contrast to other smaller camera systems (neither is 4x5, or 8x10, etc, for that matter). And yet, here we still are.

If anything, the fact that medium format digital is still here, the fact that medium format digital does continue to invest and evolve and expand capability and features, that at least some companies seem to be doing quite well, that smaller format camera systems continue to improve and advance, in the face of all this, if anything - to me - this to me seems like more of an ironic success story than a picture of doom and gloom.

Ultimately what would the real numbers actually mean, if anything, to you in terms of should you invest or not? In MFD's peak year in 2007 (let's just say, I don't know), there were 8,700 medium format new digital backs sold. In 2012, let's say there were 6,800 new units sold. Ok, so what then? In 2001 there were 5,500 units sold. So what then?

I don't know how many units get sold. But I know how many units every dealers sold in the US for quite a few years with 3 different companies. And I know how CI stacks up in the USA and (roughly) worldwide.

Especially when you add Leica and Pentax into the mix, I believe the number is easily over 6,000, might even be 7,000, maybe 8,000. But that is just my guess. These are not large companies and getting real numbers from them may never happen. But I would say looking at the real evidence in front of you - amazing competitive pressure, severe downturn in world economy, and then look at the segment, look at the products and the technology, look at the interest and enthusiasm, and I don't see why someone investing in a digital back today has any reason to feel concern. Does your investment take a hit? Yes, of course, all digital capture products take a hit, the difference is in the dollars, the percentages are probably similar. You can either afford to be in medium format digital, or you cannot. That is the market. The interest is there, the desire is there, the enthusiasm is there. The size of the market is dictated by those who can afford it. I'm not saying it's a rich persons market, (a 40MP Pentax is $6,900), I'm just saying it is a market for those who can afford it. Regardless of what numbers anyone wishes to project, the real evidence is that the market continues to exist, and pretty strongly so.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration








Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 20, 2013, 12:33:19 PM
Hi,

I actually think the absolute numbers are important. That is keeping vendor, R&D and dealer chain alive. You need to have a critical mass to survive.

If sales drop to low support operation you go out of business, unless you are in Germany. German companies seem to have get financing quite easily.

If you have a critical mass you still need working on being competitive.

Best regards
Erik


Yes - the absolute numbers aren't actually very important, and what is important is growth in the market place.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 20, 2013, 01:41:08 PM
if cassette tapes can make a come back, as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22533522) bbc report suggests, then maybe there is more hope for the future of medium format cameras than one would have thought.... heck maybe even kyocera could return from wherever old oems go to die
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 20, 2013, 02:14:06 PM
if cassette tapes can make a come back, as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22533522) bbc report suggests, then maybe there is more hope for the future of medium format cameras than one would have thought.... heck maybe even kyocera could return from wherever old oems go to die

This such a poor comparison.  Cassettes offered no advantages over CDs other than they could be recorded on over and over again.  Compared to MPG players, cassettes have no advantages.  Plus cassettes have no "vintage" sound to them like records. 

A MF back on a tech camera has a large amount of advantages over its 35mm counter part.  That is why I just got a Arca this year. 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 02:47:28 PM
if cassette tapes can make a come back, as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22533522) bbc report suggests, then maybe there is more hope for the future of medium format cameras than one would have thought.... heck maybe even kyocera could return from wherever old oems go to die

I don't think this makes a case for MF digital. If anything this makes a case for film. It's about analogue compared to digital.

Speaking to a friend that is a photo buyer/clearance person that sees heaps of images for bands he told me that the amount of images that he sees that are from film is on the rise.
Often deliberately processed "rough" to look even less HiFi.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 02:52:24 PM

A medium format digital camera is not an easy camera system to use and get results from, in contrast to other smaller camera systems.


What is harder about shooting with a Phase One DF compared to another digital DSLR?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 03:43:30 PM
I don't see why someone investing in a digital back today has any reason to feel concern. Does your investment take a hit? Yes, of course, all digital capture products take a hit, the difference is in the dollars, the percentages are probably similar.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Not even close. Just look at used lenses on ebay.

A couple of examples:
Phase One 150mm 2.8 IF
New $3.490
Ebay $ 1.918

Loss $1572 45%

Nikon 70-200mm
New BH $2,396
Ebay $1,950

Loss $446 18%

Nikon 85mm 1.4G
New $1,629
Ebay $1,400

Loss 229 14%

Canon 85mm 1.2 II
New $ 1999
Ebay $ 1600

Loss $399 20%  but many of these lenses go for more.

D800
New BH $2796
Ebay $2,400

Loss $ 396 14%
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 20, 2013, 03:45:09 PM
What is harder about shooting with a Phase One DF compared to another digital DSLR?

Personally, I would read this as you need to shoot at base ISO, since MF does not work well with high ISOs.  Also, to achieve the same blur with a lens of similar angle of view, you often need to use a smaller aperture.  Both of these things are going to require more lighting skill and more power.  

I assume that you, Fred, shoot at low ISOs any way, as do I, so the transition would not be that big of a deal, after learning the camera.  But for someone who has limited light skill and shoots at ISO 400+ this could be an big issue.  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 04:06:25 PM
What is harder about shooting with a Phase One DF compared to another digital DSLR?


It's a fine difference, but I didn't simply say they were harder to use.

And I'm surprised you would ask, considering the effort you've put into showing your perspective on the advantages of Nikon.

So it's not open to interpretation, what I specifically meant is that 35mm DSLR's are IMO, generally able to achieve results over a wider set of parameters. They auto focus more effectively. They provide excellent Live Preview ability. Due to their lower resolution, tolerances aren't as stringent for obtaining results.

I can wing it with my 5D-MKII, and still get some good results. When I wing it with MFD, the success rate is lower. It requires more focus and concentration, at least in my experience. This doesn't make it harder to use in all situations, but you could say it does in some.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 04:21:04 PM
Not even close. Just look at used lenses on ebay.

A couple of examples:
Phase One 150mm 2.8 IF
New $3.490
Ebay $ 1.918

Loss $1572 45%

Nikon 70-200mm
New BH $2,396
Ebay $1,950

Loss $446 18%

Nikon 85mm 1.4G
New $1,629
Ebay $1,400

Loss 229 14%

Canon 85mm 1.2 II
New $ 1999
Ebay $ 1600

Loss $399 20%  but many of these lenses go for more.

D800
New BH $2796
Ebay $2,400

Loss $ 396 14%



Your cherry picks are noted. There are also plenty of examples of 35mm digital capture bodies that have lost 50% - 70% within just a few years of a new body introduction.

Anyway, my point was that traditionally, digital camera bodies tend to take a bigger hit than lenses, but my larger point was that yes, your investment will take a hit. Hence, yes, that financial aspect does need to be taken into account. That doesn't mean that medium format digital is doomed.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 05:34:57 PM

Your cherry picks are noted. There are also plenty of examples of 35mm digital capture bodies that have lost 50% - 70% within just a few years of a new body introduction.

Anyway, my point was that traditionally, digital camera bodies tend to take a bigger hit than lenses,[/b] but my larger point was that yes, your investment will take a hit. Hence, yes, that financial aspect does need to be taken into account. That doesn't mean that medium format digital is doomed.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

No not cherry picked just comparing current gear.
Anyone can see how much a Phase One back loses "just for being driven off the lot".

Right now one of your dealer friends (your words, not mine) is asking something like $28k for an IQ160 with 10,000 shots on it, whilst in the same rough timescale, perfectly respectable end users are struggling to sell their IQ180's (still under warranty) on specialist forums for around $22k.

There's an IQ180 going for $ 30,000 on ebay from a very respected camera dealer here in the LA area. Well known for Leica etc.
It's mint with 200 shorts on it, still under warranty and has some offers, but not selling....

That's more than 25% below new price.

Another one here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78493.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78493.0)

600 shots $ 26,500 or best offer

New now it's $37,990.  30% less  Drop of  $11,490

It's easy to go and see what a mint discontinued D700 with low shot count can get ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-DSLR-camera-body-IN-BOX-BARELY-USED-15-shutter-actuations-8GB-CF-/390594831328?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item5af14423e0 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-DSLR-camera-body-IN-BOX-BARELY-USED-15-shutter-actuations-8GB-CF-/390594831328?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item5af14423e0)

$ 2,000 32 bids sold in 5 days

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-12-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Extras-Shutter-Count-736-Pristine-/111075528291?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item19dc9e0e63 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-12-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Extras-Shutter-Count-736-Pristine-/111075528291?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item19dc9e0e63)

$ 1,895

Last official new price was $2,199

Still selling well despite the d800 being 3x the pixel cound and having video.


Anyway, my point was that traditionally, digital camera bodies tend to take a bigger hit than lenses,[/b] .....

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

That's not the case with Phase One lenses..... they take quite a hard hit, but part of that can be attributed to the so so DF body with it's bugs, lockups and modest focusing system.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 06:08:01 PM
Personally, I would read this as you need to shoot at base ISO, since MF does not work well with high ISOs.  Also, to achieve the same blur with a lens of similar angle of view, you often need to use a smaller aperture.  Both of these things are going to require more lighting skill and more power.  

I assume that you, Fred, shoot at low ISOs any way, as do I, so the transition would not be that big of a deal, after learning the camera.  But for someone who has limited light skill and shoots at ISO 400+ this could be an big issue.  

Lighting skills for low ISO do not have to be as good as for high ISO. At high ISO dynamic range falls dramatically and more skill is required to keep lighting ratios under control.

I'd say the biggest difference is that MF is usable in fewer situation, not harder.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 06:17:48 PM
No not cherry picked just comparing current gear.
Anyone can see how much a Phase One back loses "just for being driven off the lot".

There's an IQ180 going for $ 30,000 on ebay from a very respected camera dealer here in the LA area. Well known for Leica etc.
It's mint with 200 shorts on it, still under warranty and has some offers, but not selling....

That's more than 25% below new price.

Another one here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78493.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78493.0)

600 shots $ 26,500 or best offer

New now it's $37,990.  30% less  Drop of  $11,490

It's easy to go and see what a mint discontinued D700 with low shot count can get ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-DSLR-camera-body-IN-BOX-BARELY-USED-15-shutter-actuations-8GB-CF-/390594831328?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item5af14423e0 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-DSLR-camera-body-IN-BOX-BARELY-USED-15-shutter-actuations-8GB-CF-/390594831328?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item5af14423e0)

$ 2,000 32 bids sold in 5 days

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-12-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Extras-Shutter-Count-736-Pristine-/111075528291?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item19dc9e0e63 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D700-12-1-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-w-Extras-Shutter-Count-736-Pristine-/111075528291?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item19dc9e0e63)

$ 1,895

Last official new price was $2,199

Still selling well despite the d800 being 3x the pixel cound and having video.


I'm not going to argue with you about the amount of digital camera depreciation while you cherry pick your examples of Nikon loss with eBay. Why would 32 people bid for a D700 from eBay, when they could buy one LN- from a reputable dealer like KEH for 25% less? It's easy to use eBay to distort the pricing the market bears.

http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Digital/system-Nikon-Digital/category-Camera-Bodies?s=1&bcode=DN&ccode=2&cc=80172&r=WG&f


I'm not belaboring a point, you are. You can argue that 35mm DSLR depreciation is less, but it doesn't matter to my larger point. My point was investment loss is part of the equation. I'm not concerned if that doesn't give you anything to use for your arguments.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: amsp on May 20, 2013, 06:23:27 PM
Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. I mean, you're even trolling PhaseOne youtube videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjIAd1KcT4E) ffs (7 out of 9 comments, seriously?). You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 20, 2013, 06:55:03 PM
We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD...

Yeah,
This is what it's all about.  
I think this forum would regain much interest if we could all have an adult and respectfull attitude on the diversity currently offered by the image industry equipment.

We should all take example of the most serious motion forums, I'd really like to see that spirit back. People workin (and apparently having less time to spend on futilities).
I see the Avid guys helping the FCP users and vice versa. The Red one guys helping the Arri ones and vice versa. Even some really high-end pros with settled reputation helping
wanabee dslrs, sometimes even repplying silly questions and never a discredit or a sarcasm.
Nobody steps into a brand forum or a system' forum to bomb it, even the old geared ones (and specially the old geared ones). Unthinkable in a serious motion forum.
As a result, the general tone are never infantile nor agresive but respect. Profesional. People are there to be helpfull and receive in return some help too. There aren't there
to opinate in vain on equipment and choices of equipments, and if they do it's never a crusade but short ideas and act 2.

I'm not for a false new age politically correct to the absurd. It's good to shake things. It's good to questionned things. Not like in the Red forum where the fanboyism and cultism is
sometimes pathetic. But...it's more understandable, it's a brand forum and expected. You take any brand forum and there is often a blind and agressive cultism involved.
(reminds me of my Apple "friends" who started to look at me strange after I decided to switch to peecees. They suddenly had the devil in front of them).  
But crusades and disqualifications, are not good, and specially in this section where there are a lot of active pros as well as serious amateurs and many old fox shooters
(sorry for the "old") who don't need mums to tell them what to do and how.

I don't understand why this is something so much difficult in the still world and why those regular crusades, those endless comparaisons, wars, brands,
those scientific "investigations" and those permanent bursts of exaltations when a new morepixelthanpixel camera is released etc...
Why the still imagery seems to be more prone to gear cultism and radical positions and less respect between system users?

It's a mystery to me.  
Maybe TMARK was right.  

See, it's like the other day I was amazed to see some people being in Mike's house for free, and starting a thread to complain on advertisings. I mean, where do we go?
And adverts are a source of revenus for a website they are using. I suggested that they should go and have a look on the Creative Cow if they really wanted to see
what advert invasion in a website means...
"it hurts my eyes" etc... if we go that way, why not tomorrow everyone writes to Mike about the site color? Green is not my color, could you please change that to red?
Or we could ask Michael to provide us a system that each time we launch Lu-La there is a Nļ5 Chanel perfume spreading the editing room from the audio speakers.

Let's be serious folks.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 07:55:36 PM

I'm not going to argue with you about the amount of digital camera depreciation while you cherry pick your examples of Nikon loss with eBay. Why would 32 people bid for a D700 from eBay, when they could buy one LN- from a reputable dealer like KEH for 25% less? It's easy to use eBay to distort the pricing the market bears.

http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Digital/system-Nikon-Digital/category-Camera-Bodies?s=1&bcode=DN&ccode=2&cc=80172&r=WG&f


I'm not belaboring a point, you are. You can argue that 35mm DSLR depreciation is less, but it doesn't matter to my larger point. My point was investment loss is part of the equation. I'm not concerned if that doesn't give you anything to use for your arguments.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



Your link only confirma what I wrote.
Just look at the prices of the D700 and D800 right on the KEH website.

D800 new $   $2,796.95 ....  their used price LN $$2,399.00.

To put this argument into context what would CI buy a used mint IQ180 for from a customer who is not upgrading?


Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Ken Doo on May 20, 2013, 07:59:58 PM
Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. I mean, you're even trolling PhaseOne youtube videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjIAd1KcT4E) ffs (7 out of 9 comments, seriously?). You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.


+1.

Wwwhoa. Wait a minute---I can get a Canon that will massage my shoulders?  Even the D800 doesn't do that...   ::)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Gigi on May 20, 2013, 08:30:24 PM
We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too.

+2
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 10:09:39 PM
Your link only confirma what I wrote.
Just look at the prices of the D700 and D800 right on the KEH website.

D800 new $   $2,796.95 ....  their used price LN $$2,399.00.

To put this argument into context what would CI buy a used mint IQ180 for from a customer who is not upgrading?





Like I said, I'm not going to argue with your cherry picking, even though you chose not to mention the D700, on the link I posted which - at $1,599 - is 50% less than the original purchase price of $2,999.

And the price I would offer for a mint IQ180 from a customer is between me and my customer. If you have an IQ180 you'd like to discuss, I'm all ears.

None of this has anything to do with my point, which was that there is investment loss. I don't see any reason I need to re-prove the point that I was already making.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 10:10:36 PM
Yeah,
This is what it's all about.  
I think this forum would regain much interest if we could all have an adult and respectfull attitude on the diversity currently offered by the image industry equipment.

We should all take example of the most serious motion forums, I'd really like to see that spirit back. People workin (and apparently having less time to spend on futilities).
I see the Avid guys helping the FCP users and vice versa. The Red one guys helping the Arri ones and vice versa. Even some really high-end pros with settled reputation helping
wanabee dslrs, sometimes even repplying silly questions and never a discredit or a sarcasm.
Nobody steps into a brand forum or a system' forum to bomb it, even the old geared ones (and specially the old geared ones). Unthinkable in a serious motion forum.
As a result, the general tone are never infantile nor agresive but respect. Profesional. People are there to be helpfull and receive in return some help too. There aren't there
to opinate in vain on equipment and choices of equipments, and if they do it's never a crusade but short ideas and act 2.

I'm not for a false new age politically correct to the absurd. It's good to shake things. It's good to questionned things. Not like in the Red forum where the fanboyism and cultism is
sometimes pathetic. But...it's more understandable, it's a brand forum and expected. You take any brand forum and there is often a blind and agressive cultism involved.
(reminds me of my Apple "friends" who started to look at me strange after I decided to switch to peecees. They suddenly had the devil in front of them).  
But crusades and disqualifications, are not good, and specially in this section where there are a lot of active pros as well as serious amateurs and many old fox shooters
(sorry for the "old") who don't need mums to tell them what to do and how.

I don't understand why this is something so much difficult in the still world and why those regular crusades, those endless comparaisons, wars, brands,
those scientific "investigations" and those permanent bursts of exaltations when a new morepixelthanpixel camera is released etc...
Why the still imagery seems to be more prone to gear cultism and radical positions and less respect between system users?

It's a mystery to me.  
Maybe TMARK was right.  

See, it's like the other day I was amazed to see some people being in Mike's house for free, and starting a thread to complain on advertisings. I mean, where do we go?
And adverts are a source of revenus for a website they are using. I suggested that they should go and have a look on the Creative Cow if they really wanted to see
what advert invasion in a website means...
"it hurts my eyes" etc... if we go that way, why not tomorrow everyone writes to Mike about the site color? Green is not my color, could you please change that to red?
Or we could ask Michael to provide us a system that each time we launch Lu-La there is a Nļ5 Chanel perfume spreading the editing room from the audio speakers.

Let's be serious folks.




Fredjeang2 -

I like your spirit and your outlook.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: rgmoore on May 20, 2013, 10:13:13 PM
Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. I mean, you're even trolling PhaseOne youtube videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjIAd1KcT4E) ffs (7 out of 9 comments, seriously?). You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.




+3
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 11:22:24 PM

Like I said, I'm not going to argue with your cherry picking, even though you chose not to mention the D700, on the link I posted which - at $1,599 - is 50% less than the original purchase price of $2,999.

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Actually the more recent official price was $ 2,199.

Even against the official announcement price getting 50% on the item after 5 years is quite good if you consider that the replacement that goes for the $2,999 price today has 3x the pixel count and uncompressed video.

Lets look at a somewhat similarly aged MF item.

P65+ was launched at $39,990

Used:
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHASE-ONE-P65-DIGITAL-BACK-645DF-CAMERA-KIT-/121108886332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c32a6f33c&nma=true&si=jhjT7BljlEE18%252B558JBA9aBMhYU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557[url]

Sold for $ 9,000 even though it included a DF body as well.

That's a $30,990 77% loss.

It is pretty clear that the loss in resale value is far higher with MF than it is with more popular formats, but the MF dealers won't admit this.
I think that it is fair for photographers to know.
It's unfortunate that discussing this with some figures upsets some MF enthusiasts.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 20, 2013, 11:34:34 PM
Actually the more recent official price was $ 2,199.

Even against the official announcement price getting 50% on the item after 5 years is quite good if you consider that the replacement that goes for the $2,999 price today has 3x the pixel count and uncompressed video.

Lets look at a somewhat similarly aged MF item.

P65+ was launched at $39,990

Used:
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHASE-ONE-P65-DIGITAL-BACK-645DF-CAMERA-KIT-/121108886332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c32a6f33c&nma=true&si=jhjT7BljlEE18%252B558JBA9aBMhYU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557[url]

Sold for $ 9,000 even though it included a DF body as well.

That's a $30,990 77% loss.

It is pretty clear that the loss in resale value is far higher with MF than it is with more popular formats, but the MF dealers won't admit this.
I think that it is fair for photographers to know.
It's unfortunate that discussing this with some figures upsets some MF enthusiasts.


You continue to simply twist and mis-represent what I've said. And you take an extreme example and state it as doctrine. I think I said quite clearly, "investment loss is part of the equation". How that turns into not admitting is a great example of something that you have turned into an art form.

I don't think you have any shame. You've dedicated a substantial amount of your time and efforts to mis-represent the reality of the medium format market and then you try to act as if you have sympathy toward those MF enthusiasts who would be upset.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 20, 2013, 11:55:42 PM

You continue to simply twist and mis-represent what I've said. And you take an extreme example and state it as doctrine. I think I said quite clearly, "investment loss is part of the equation". How that turns into not admitting is a great example of something that you have turned into an art form.

I don't think you have any shame. You've dedicated a substantial amount of your time and efforts to mis-represent the reality of the medium format market and then you try to act as if you have sympathy toward those MF enthusiasts who would be upset.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 



Call it an extreme example if you want. Here is another and it's not doctrine, just examples backed up with the documented figure... that's all.

$ 17,000, but with 5 lenses.

The point that I made was to correct your statement that the percentage loss is the same for other formats. It's not and rather than accuse me of cherry picking etc
why not just admit that that's the way it is.

Investment loss is part of the equation, but for MF it a bigger percentage... quite simple... and it should be part of the decision making process
for any business. Each person can decide how much it counts.

On the other hand the low used prices make things better for those who want to get into MF.
There is a fair amount of gear out there for good prices.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Ken Doo on May 21, 2013, 12:02:10 AM
Steve---don't waste your breath/time.  There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital.   ::)   I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market.  Really.

We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him.  I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest.  Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing?  I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there?  Oh, wait, I forgot.  Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...   ;)

ken
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 21, 2013, 12:05:20 AM
Hi Steve -

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Much appreciated, and makes a great deal of sense.

I will comment on the value/depreciation/investment thing in a separate post, but just want to clarify the "respect" issue that I made.

This was in a reply to Guy's "My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that." comment. I find it patronising and disrespectful when two leading figures on MF forums provide contradictory information about the state of the market (one says its growing, the other says its declining) and I'm told I can't discuss it, and that I'm a troll if I attempt to.

I of course recognise that it wasn't you who said this, and in fact you subsequently provided a more detailed explanation behind your rationale for the figures you gave.

Kind regards,

Gerald.



My estimates are always about new product sales, in units sold, not also including 2nd hand, etc. Keep in mind when I offer a number, I am not stating it as a fact (nor have I ever). It is an educated guess on my part, based on my past employment with the following companies:

Imacon
SinarBron Imaging
PPR
Phase One
Capture Integration
14 years experience selling digital backs from Sinar/Jenoptik/Leaf/Mamiya/Imacon/Hasselblad/Phase One

I've been in corporate meetings with my employees discussing numbers, I've been in dealer/partner meetings with manufacturers discussing numbers, as one of the largest (and widest reaching) focused dealers for these products worldwide, I also have a decent sense of how things are out there in the marketplace.

All this only contributes to my estimation of the market and the performance of the market.

I will add I've never felt glad after the fact about providing this information, for the way my experience gets twisted to suit someone's agenda or mis-represented perspective.

When you talk about "respect", that seems to imply that there is disrespect tendered in the way that marketshare, sales numbers, etc, is provided. I don't see how that can be the case. I do not factually know the numbers. I can offer an educated guesstimate, I have offered educated guesstimates, and it's either like members don't believe me or they just pretend to not hear me. I don't have a lot of control over that.

I'm also going to say that the only reason that I even offer up any guess's is because some like to stir the pot of doom, and then see the masses run in fear. I think some actually take glee out of it. Does medium format digital have a future is a legitimate question. Just the same as one could question any number of imaging segments, products, etc. It gets taken a step further - true, because of the estimable cost, but also because there are some who provoke and mis-represent. Which leads to me feeling the need to at least share my experience and my perspective on the market place.

I get it. But I'm also bullish on medium format digital. Many could just invest in 35mm DSLR, but clearly they want more, they desire something different. Do they not? Is this not relevant? Is this not important? A medium format digital camera is not an easy camera system to use and get results from, in contrast to other smaller camera systems (neither is 4x5, or 8x10, etc, for that matter). And yet, here we still are.

If anything, the fact that medium format digital is still here, the fact that medium format digital does continue to invest and evolve and expand capability and features, that at least some companies seem to be doing quite well, that smaller format camera systems continue to improve and advance, in the face of all this, if anything - to me - this to me seems like more of an ironic success story than a picture of doom and gloom.

Ultimately what would the real numbers actually mean, if anything, to you in terms of should you invest or not? In MFD's peak year in 2007 (let's just say, I don't know), there were 8,700 medium format new digital backs sold. In 2012, let's say there were 6,800 new units sold. Ok, so what then? In 2001 there were 5,500 units sold. So what then?

I don't know how many units get sold. But I know how many units every dealers sold in the US for quite a few years with 3 different companies. And I know how CI stacks up in the USA and (roughly) worldwide.

Especially when you add Leica and Pentax into the mix, I believe the number is easily over 6,000, might even be 7,000, maybe 8,000. But that is just my guess. These are not large companies and getting real numbers from them may never happen. But I would say looking at the real evidence in front of you - amazing competitive pressure, severe downturn in world economy, and then look at the segment, look at the products and the technology, look at the interest and enthusiasm, and I don't see why someone investing in a digital back today has any reason to feel concern. Does your investment take a hit? Yes, of course, all digital capture products take a hit, the difference is in the dollars, the percentages are probably similar. You can either afford to be in medium format digital, or you cannot. That is the market. The interest is there, the desire is there, the enthusiasm is there. The size of the market is dictated by those who can afford it. I'm not saying it's a rich persons market, (a 40MP Pentax is $6,900), I'm just saying it is a market for those who can afford it. Regardless of what numbers anyone wishes to project, the real evidence is that the market continues to exist, and pretty strongly so.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration









Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 21, 2013, 12:16:18 AM
I've found that most of the individuals who post here, including dealers and reps, are quit congenial and helpful, so could we all chill out and play nice?

Edmund
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: HarperPhotos on May 21, 2013, 12:22:40 AM
Hello,

Well yesterday I sold my Mamiya RZ/Leaf Aptus 75 kit on EBay to a chap in Australia for $9,350.00US dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221228532197?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

When you consider that I paid $45,000 dollars seven years ago for the back and all the thousands of dollars spent on the lenses and body the amount I got could be upsetting.

For me its not cause over the past seven years that back has made me over 2 million dollars.

Iím just glad that the young photographer who has bought it will have years of enjoyment as I have had with my Mamiya RZ.

Why sell you ask simple the Nikon D800E has made it redundant for my type of work.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 21, 2013, 12:23:07 AM
Steve---don't waste your breath/time.  There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital.   ::)   I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market.  Really.

We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him.  I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest.  Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing?  I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there?  Oh, wait, I forgot.  Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...   ;)

ken

For your information I bought most of my Phase One gear from GET DPI and this forum. I only bought the back from ebay and as I have repeated many times and you know it
I had no issues with the back. It worked flawlessly on the Fuji gx680 but it was with the two Phase One bodies that were problematic. Similar to problems many others have had.
Ebay isn't "the seller". The seller sells through ebay. I have a 100% rating on ebay and my experience in buying has always been 100% even the one time I had to make a return.

Also the price loss can be seen clearly on the forums too.

Here are some items currently for sale:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/45780-fs-phase-one-df-lenses.html (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/45780-fs-phase-one-df-lenses.html)

Prices lowered once again:
Phase One DF is perfect condition with spare battery inserts, gridded focusing screen, and arca-swiss L bracket: $2750.00   New 5.900
Phase One 55mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2600.00         $4,690.00                                                                                          
Phase One 80mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $1540.00         $2,990.00
Phase One 110mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2995.00        $5,390.00
Phase One Zoom AF 75-150mm f/4.5 slight scuff on hood: $2600.00     $4,690.00
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 21, 2013, 12:33:40 AM
Hello,

Well yesterday I sold my Mamiya RZ/Leaf Aptus 75 kit on EBay to a chap in Australia for $9,350.00US dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221228532197?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

When you consider that I paid $45,000 dollars seven years ago for the back and all the thousands of dollars spent on the lenses and body the amount I got could be upsetting.

For me its not cause over the past seven years that back has made me over 2 million dollars.

Iím just glad that the young photographer who has bought it will have years of enjoyment as I have had with my Mamiya RZ.

Why sell you ask simple the Nikon D800E has made it redundant for my type of work.

Cheers

Simon

There it is in a nutshell.

If the investment will enable you to earn the money and the loss on the investment factors in well then everything works out well.

A young photographer buys into MF from an end user and for a good deal and unlike new MF gear it will most likely hold it's value longer.

The D800E replaces the MF with a relatively smaller investment.

One does need to keep in mind that times have changed quite a lot and the IQ difference is getting smaller and BOTH FORMATS meet and most of the time exceed most publishing format requirements.

One thing is for sure. Both top of the line 35mm DSLR and even middle of the road MF is way up there as far as IQ goes.

Simon that Jim Beam image of the girls in the movie studio is really nice.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 21, 2013, 12:33:45 AM
The depreciation is partly the effect of the dealer margins - you cannot sell your used equipment at a price higher than the dealer can buy the same refurbed from the manufacturer. However you can hope for trade-ins.

I'd say you have a 30% depreciation within 1 months of buying your back, and then maybe 15% per year, so in fact buying used equipment is a good deal. And the old stuff works great too, I sold my P45+ to a member of this forum recently and heard no complaints.

As for the D800, obviously anyone on this forum, even me, could get brilliant images with it - the days when you *had* to use MF to get decent images are over, but I think Kodachrome is to blame for that as much as Nikon.

Edmund

For your information I bought most of my Phase One gear from GET DPI and this forum. I only bought the back from ebay and as I have repeated many times and you know it
I had no issues with the back. It worked flawlessly on the Fuji gx680 but it was with the two Phase One bodies that were problematic.
Ebay isn't "the seller". The seller sells through ebay. I have a 100% rating on ebay and my experience in buying has always been 100% even the one time I had to make a return.

Also the price loss can be seen clearly on the forums too.

Here are some items currently for sale:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/45780-fs-phase-one-df-lenses.html (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/45780-fs-phase-one-df-lenses.html)

Prices lowered once again:
Phase One DF is perfect condition with spare battery inserts, gridded focusing screen, and arca-swiss L bracket: $2750.00   New 5.900
Phase One 55mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2600.00         $4,690.00                                                                                          
Phase One 80mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $1540.00         $2,990.00
Phase One 110mm f/2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach: $2995.00        $5,390.00
Phase One Zoom AF 75-150mm f/4.5 slight scuff on hood: $2600.00     $4,690.00
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 21, 2013, 01:01:04 AM
the days when you *had* to use MF to get decent images are over, but I think Kodachrome is to blame for that as much as Nikon.

Edmund


The jobs an 8x10 used to be used for is today for the large part done by MF and is becoming 35mm DSLR territory.

Sony. Nikon and Canon are pushing IQ to levels that were unimaginable not to long ago and for very accessible prices.





Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 21, 2013, 01:20:05 AM
Hi Steve -

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Much appreciated, and makes a great deal of sense.

I will comment on the value/depreciation/investment thing in a separate post, but just want to clarify the "respect" issue that I made.

This was in a reply to Guy's "My source is not coming from a dealer and lets leave it at that." comment. I find it patronising and disrespectful when two leading figures on MF forums provide contradictory information about the state of the market (one says its growing, the other says its declining) and I'm told I can't discuss it, and that I'm a troll if I attempt to.

I of course recognise that it wasn't you who said this, and in fact you subsequently provided a more detailed explanation behind your rationale for the figures you gave.

Kind regards,

Gerald.



No one ever called you a troll lets make that perfectly clear. Also my comment at leave it at that is too protect people from maybe possibly losing there job . I am not going to risk that chance of that happening. It came from a person high on the totem poll. It was a question I asked in passing and obviously not verifiable as with anyone that throws numbers out like these. Your dealing with several companies with marketing, customer and industrial secrets that are not always for public consumption . We all should know that as we all run or work for any business that has its own trade secrets. I would never let anyone know how many jobs or revenue I make in a year for instance. There is really no difference in what Steve has said or or what I have said as he comes from a dealer prospective and has sales numbers for the company he works for as a guide. I was speaking more on a global level of totally worldwide . Bottom line the numbers are low compared to other formats in this industry. Again as Steve will tell you its not about guys like us buying these things but aerial, governments, scientific fields, museums and so on that big buyers of these systems. Even big catalog houses for instance use Phase . Macy's studios in New York for instance uses Phase MF . Actually looking at some big studio jobs awhile back it came up quite a lot for MF digital abilities .

Also buying used prices will vary between dealers and users simply because of seller comfort level on what the want to sell for or more important there motivation behind it. I sell stuff sometimes cheap because I'm in a hurry to get something else for instance. Dealers for the most part do not have these type of motivations to clear there used shelves. So pricing can be very deceiving and this happens with any camera and end users. Some folks just want to get rid of stuff fast or don't care. I know sometimes that makes no sense but I see it all the time. It's pretty interesting to watch the used market as its pretty damn fickle. I just bought a old used Leica R 19mm lens for some good money but 2 years ago I could have stole one for cheap. Oh that is getting bolted on a Nikon. Lol

But even though you may see a P65 for cheap. Many things can account for that outside of pure numbers. Buying used can be tricky . Hell buying new can be worse. I'm on my second Sigma 35 1.4 , my third Nikon 50 1.4. Got lucky on my 85 and sold my 14-24 for nasty focus shifting. Sold my Nikon 24 and 35 1.4 lenses for Zeiss at one time early on. So lens whores like me are a classic case of selling to getting something else and maybe needing it fast. But I make money off my gear so I don't always care too much on getting a good return. This is why I view pricing of used gear as fickle. MF depreciates no question about it , so do cars. Not much you can do about it and for guys that shoot for commerce we make money from it, so depreciation may not feel as painful. Just some prospective on it, you mileage will certainly vary and hope it does. I'm a lens whore you don't want to be me. Lol
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 21, 2013, 01:25:27 AM
And here we go again with this almost constant FUD aimed at dissuading people from buying and selling MFDB's privately.

Warranties on Phase One backs are transferable internationally. I have just had a very satisfactory service on an IQ180 that I bought privately - through Ebay, from half-way across the world. There are MANY instances of private offers that, if you apply some due diligence, are perfectly safe transactions to enter into, but that some regular forum commentators, dealers, and forum owners, seem very keen to dissuade from happening.

It's never direct. In fact, sometimes people will offer their support for the person doing the selling. But there is a constant drone of background FUD being sown in every single discussion on this forum and GetDPI when someone asks a question about either getting into MFDB, or buying and selling in the marketplace. Anyone visiting these forums potentially looking for a used back may well go to the "for sale" sections and go "ooh, that looks like good value", then read the general sections of the forums, and run a mile in fear.

I want to use my IQ180 purchase, plus evidence (from MF forums, not Ebay) of recent sales attempts, and trade-in offers to highlight what I believe is a totally distorted market.

Firstly, two recent "for sale" notices placed over at GetDPI for IQ180's.

(Case 1) Under 10k actuations. Less than 2 years old. More than 3 years left on a VAR. Offered for $23K. Dropped to $22.5K. Offer currently pending.

(Case 2) 1150 actuations. Again, less than 2 years old. Again, more than 3 years left on a VAR. Initially offered for $27.5K. Dropped to $22.5K. Sold

Now, my IQ180 purchase.

Bought through eBay a little over a year ago for $27.5K. Weigh that up against an offer at the time from the local dealer to purchase an ex-demo kit (including DF and 80mm), with 4 years remaining on a VAR, for roughly $41.5K.

Let me get this out of the way up front. I was very happy with the price I paid for my IQ180. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that it's probably depreciated by around $7.5K in the year that I've owned it. That is, it would appear to have depreciated that much were I to want to sell it privately now.

But is that actually a realistic, or shall I dare to use the word, "fair", valuation? Is it really "fair" that IQ180's with less than 2 years on the clock, and with 3 years worth of VAR left, are seemingly worth only 50% of what they originally cost if you want to sell privately?

Dealers, for reasons best known to themselves, seem to choose not to put a public price on their used IQ180's. But they do list prices of other used backs. Yes, I know - if I wanted to I could contact them and ask them. But I'm not in the market for a used IQ180. So I have no intention of asking, because presumably the figure would be provided in private, and I'd be asked not to share it.

So what's the closest I can find since I can't find an openly advertised price on a used IQ180 on a dealer's website?

$28K for an IQ160 with around 10,000 shots and a year's warranty. What price an IQ160 new? $31K

What about trade-in. What's the (list price) trade in value for an IQ180 against an IQ280? Well, list price of an IQ280 (no VAR) is $44K. Trade-up will cost you an additional $13K, so the trade in value would appear to be $31K.

Can someone please explain to me the following, because there is simply no way these facts could co-exist in an open market? There is nothing wrong with any one of them in and of itself. It's the combination of all of them that simply does not make sense.

1. If you attempt to sell an IQ180 privately, you'll lose 50% of the original value in depreciation over the first 2 years.
2. Trade-in an IQ180 for an upgrade to the 280, and you'll lose 30% against the original price you paid for it, and just 18% against the newly adjusted price (they are now $37K)
3. If you want to buy a used IQ160 from a dealer, that dealer will imply that the depreciation on the back is only around 10% of its value after 10,000 shots against the new price. Presumably, it is fair to assume then, that the dealer would look to sell a used IQ180 for around $33K.


An IQ180 is worth $31K against the purchase price of a new IQ280. From many comments on the forums, it would seem that there won't be a huge number of those upgrades going on. Some will be upgrading from IQ160's or P65's, sure. But surely there are some people out there who are buying IQ280's new?

The only reason I can come up with for people struggling to sell their IQ180's for even 70% of their trade-in value is because the market is totally distorted, and it's been totally distorted by the repeated FUD being liberally thrown around these forums.

Steve---don't waste your breath/time.  There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital.   ::)   I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market.  Really.

We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him.  I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest.  Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing?  I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there?  Oh, wait, I forgot.  Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...   ;)

ken
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 21, 2013, 02:00:56 AM
No one ever called you a troll lets make that perfectly clear. Also my comment at leave it at that is too protect people from maybe possibly losing there job . I am not going to risk that chance of that happening. It came from a person high on the totem poll. It was a question I asked in passing and obviously not verifiable as with anyone that throws numbers out like these.

High on the Totem Poll and getting fired for throwing out a rough number for sales in the overall MF industry?

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 21, 2013, 02:01:24 AM
tl/dr version:

Price for a buyer of an IQ180 including 3 years VAR bought privately: $22K-ish

Extrapolated price to a purchaser of an IQ180 bought from a dealer with just 1 year warranty: $33K-ish.

That's a 50% uplift.

Something is very wrong with that.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 21, 2013, 02:17:43 AM
No one ever called you a troll lets make that perfectly clear.

You accused me of making insulting comments, and implied that supplying any further information to back up your statements would be feeding trolls.

Just because someone challenges you; just because someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't make their comments insulting, and it doesn't make them a troll.

Look. You and I are never going to agree on this subject Guy, because we are coming at it from diametrically opposite perspectives.

You believe the customer should support the industry. You make that very clear indeed.

I believe the industry should support the customer.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2013, 04:15:37 AM
Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.




Why do you appear to confine rhe opposition to Christian fanatics?

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 21, 2013, 06:08:28 AM
You accused me of making insulting comments, and implied that supplying any further information to back up your statements would be feeding trolls.

Just because someone challenges you; just because someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't make their comments insulting, and it doesn't make them a troll.

Look. You and I are never going to agree on this subject Guy, because we are coming at it from diametrically opposite perspectives.

You believe the customer should support the industry. You make that very clear indeed.

I believe the industry should support the customer.


Gerald I did find part of your post somewhat insulting, sorry its the way I read it and if we where face to face that probably would not be the case just like my comment on supporting the industry. I never ever said they should not support us as well, no question they should. It's one of the reasons on MF gear I buy from a dealer, I want any support I can get. But that's me and my choice. I have been having issues buying new Nikon gear and it being far off the mark in regards to the IQ off the assembly line. I'm not going to sit here and whine about it though. Really what's the point as it does not help me, its just the way I deal with this stuff.

Again I never referred anything to you as being a troll, that is something you are reading wrong so if that is the case than sorry you are not who I was talking about in anyway. Unfortunately the written word is just taken out of context. Welcome to forums.

Any and all comments on buying used is depends on the situation as to going that direction or not. I buy used gear all the time. But it depends on many factors which I'm not going to do a grocery list on but if it feels good to me than I do. I buy a lot of lenses used for instance but I have been burned on occasion too with quality of the product. Bottom line for me it just depends since there are risks. I'm very keen on forum sales for instance as I do get a lot of PMs about buying and selling. I have heard of some great deals and some bad ones as well. It's people's money they can buy whatever they want and where they want.

Its also my right and my choice to make a comment and not be forced into explaining it any further without comments why I won't. I have my reasons and I don't need to share them if I don't want too. I'm no different than anyone else here that makes a post. I owe no one anything and don't work for anyone but me. You took exception to what I posted as not to explain it. Lets be clear I'm free to say whatever the hell I want just like you do. Be it I'm a leader in this industry or not your words I have that right.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Guy Mancuso on May 21, 2013, 06:21:36 AM
That all being said and not because of this thread but for several months these conversations are just getting boring and right now I'm looking for peace and tranquility in my life right now, just too much going on for me. So I'm checking out for awhile. You all take care and Happy shooting.
Bye
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2013, 08:40:28 AM
That all being said and not because of this thread but for several months these conversations are just getting boring and right now I'm looking for peace and tranquility in my life right now, just too much going on for me. So I'm checking out for awhile. You all take care and Happy shooting.
Bye


That's wise; I've done the same from time to time, and when I discover that I miss more than what I don't miss, I return, always hoping no doors have been slammed on my toes. Okay, I have big feet.

I wish you all the best in the personal life; been there, understand the horror.

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 21, 2013, 08:49:37 AM
I don't think this makes a case for MF digital. If anything this makes a case for film. It's about analogue compared to digital.

Speaking to a friend that is a photo buyer/clearance person that sees heaps of images for bands he told me that the amount of images that he sees that are from film is on the rise.
Often deliberately processed "rough" to look even less HiFi.

My Contax 645 can shoot film as well as digital as can many other MF cameras with the appropriate back that is not an option with most digital DSLRs. But this is beside the point that is a lot of the appeal of MF has to do with old habits and nostalgia value ie a leftover from the old days when MF film cameras were a step up in prestige as well as functionality from DSLRs just as DSLRs were and still are a step up the ladder from compact cameras.

Maybe another reason for the on-going popularity of MF in the digital age is the large pool of former MF film shooters who at some stage in their career had upgraded from DSLR film and convinced themselves as I did that MF digital must be better than DSLR digital without realising until after they bought their new camera that MF digital was completely different ball game than MF film? If so this may be a good argument for valuing knowledgeable dealers who can help purchasers make better informed decisions just as car salesmen can do.

Today many hot professionals and other lukewarm ones opt for medium format for good technical reasons -- but not everybody who buys a MFDB does so because they need rise and fall and a big sensor. Just as not every punk band who opts to output their music on cassettes does it for technical reasons.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Steve Hendrix on May 21, 2013, 09:08:56 AM
And here we go again with this almost constant FUD aimed at dissuading people from buying and selling MFDB's privately.

Warranties on Phase One backs are transferable internationally. I have just had a very satisfactory service on an IQ180 that I bought privately - through Ebay, from half-way across the world. There are MANY instances of private offers that, if you apply some due diligence, are perfectly safe transactions to enter into, but that some regular forum commentators, dealers, and forum owners, seem very keen to dissuade from happening.

It's never direct. In fact, sometimes people will offer their support for the person doing the selling. But there is a constant drone of background FUD being sown in every single discussion on this forum and GetDPI when someone asks a question about either getting into MFDB, or buying and selling in the marketplace. Anyone visiting these forums potentially looking for a used back may well go to the "for sale" sections and go "ooh, that looks like good value", then read the general sections of the forums, and run a mile in fear.

I want to use my IQ180 purchase, plus evidence (from MF forums, not Ebay) of recent sales attempts, and trade-in offers to highlight what I believe is a totally distorted market.

Firstly, two recent "for sale" notices placed over at GetDPI for IQ180's.

(Case 1) Under 10k actuations. Less than 2 years old. More than 3 years left on a VAR. Offered for $23K. Dropped to $22.5K. Offer currently pending.

(Case 2) 1150 actuations. Again, less than 2 years old. Again, more than 3 years left on a VAR. Initially offered for $27.5K. Dropped to $22.5K. Sold

Now, my IQ180 purchase.

Bought through eBay a little over a year ago for $27.5K. Weigh that up against an offer at the time from the local dealer to purchase an ex-demo kit (including DF and 80mm), with 4 years remaining on a VAR, for roughly $41.5K.

Let me get this out of the way up front. I was very happy with the price I paid for my IQ180. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that it's probably depreciated by around $7.5K in the year that I've owned it. That is, it would appear to have depreciated that much were I to want to sell it privately now.

But is that actually a realistic, or shall I dare to use the word, "fair", valuation? Is it really "fair" that IQ180's with less than 2 years on the clock, and with 3 years worth of VAR left, are seemingly worth only 50% of what they originally cost if you want to sell privately?

Dealers, for reasons best known to themselves, seem to choose not to put a public price on their used IQ180's. But they do list prices of other used backs. Yes, I know - if I wanted to I could contact them and ask them. But I'm not in the market for a used IQ180. So I have no intention of asking, because presumably the figure would be provided in private, and I'd be asked not to share it.

So what's the closest I can find since I can't find an openly advertised price on a used IQ180 on a dealer's website?

$28K for an IQ160 with around 10,000 shots and a year's warranty. What price an IQ160 new? $31K

What about trade-in. What's the (list price) trade in value for an IQ180 against an IQ280? Well, list price of an IQ280 (no VAR) is $44K. Trade-up will cost you an additional $13K, so the trade in value would appear to be $31K.

Can someone please explain to me the following, because there is simply no way these facts could co-exist in an open market? There is nothing wrong with any one of them in and of itself. It's the combination of all of them that simply does not make sense.

1. If you attempt to sell an IQ180 privately, you'll lose 50% of the original value in depreciation over the first 2 years.
2. Trade-in an IQ180 for an upgrade to the 280, and you'll lose 30% against the original price you paid for it, and just 18% against the newly adjusted price (they are now $37K)
3. If you want to buy a used IQ160 from a dealer, that dealer will imply that the depreciation on the back is only around 10% of its value after 10,000 shots against the new price. Presumably, it is fair to assume then, that the dealer would look to sell a used IQ180 for around $33K.


An IQ180 is worth $31K against the purchase price of a new IQ280. From many comments on the forums, it would seem that there won't be a huge number of those upgrades going on. Some will be upgrading from IQ160's or P65's, sure. But surely there are some people out there who are buying IQ280's new?

The only reason I can come up with for people struggling to sell their IQ180's for even 70% of their trade-in value is because the market is totally distorted, and it's been totally distorted by the repeated FUD being liberally thrown around these forums.



Gerald -

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. After you mentioned the IQ160, I looked at that listing and that price is not correct. That is, it is based on the previous list price of $36,990, not the current $30,990. So it needs to be modified, which we'll do today.

IQ180's are indeed openly listed with pricing on our site as well (there's one listed right now for $29,990). At times we've had a "call for price" policy and at other times we've featured all prices. There's no right or wrong, and in both cases we make some happy and displease others. Even if we publish a price on a used product, there's no reason someone shouldn't call.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: hasselbladfan on May 21, 2013, 10:05:44 AM
Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage. The issue at hand doesn't affect you in the slightest, yet you have this feverish compulsion to ram your beliefs down everyone else's throat. Personally I don't care if the next Canikon has 250 megapixels and makes me an espresso while it massages my shoulders, I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me. People have different needs and likes, get over it already.

We're all adults here, we don't need you to crusade for us against the "evils" of MFD. Not only are you spending an obscene amount of time on this forum, re-posting the same tired arguments and photos over and over, you're doing the same on numerous other forums too. You have issues man, get off the computer and start dealing with them.

+5
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 21, 2013, 11:19:06 AM
I find this whole conversation about MFDB costing more at the dealer than from private hands comical.  And it seems those arguing this are doing so under the assumption that it is only the case with MF.  

Last I checked, you can buy an used car from a dealer or a private party, and, just like with MFDBs, the same car from the dealer is most likely going to be 15% to 25% higher in price.  Is the back better from the dealer than from private hands?  Maybe, maybe not.  

A good dealer is going to thoroughly test the product before selling, giving more of a guarantee.  Is the private party going to do this?  Maybe, or maybe he does not know any better.  I've seen a few copal shutters where the selling party guaranteed they were working fine.  In fact, they were not, but they did not know any better.  They also did not know that you should never change shutter speeds when the lens is cocked, or open the lens when it is cocked, etc.

I would not buy anything from a private party with getting a return policy in writing.  I also would not buy anything from a private party that I would not be 100% familiar with and be able to test on my own.  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 21, 2013, 11:20:46 AM
> quote asmp   I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me.

My Contax 645 can shoot film as well as digital as can many other MF cameras with the appropriate back that is not an option with most digital DSLRs.

Yes, its seemed to have gotten lost somewhere until ASMP (+6) brought it to the fore that people have a choice.  I still shoot MFDB for a lot of reasons, but one of them is just that I like the look of the image better.  I like the camera (Rollei AFi/Hy6/6008) for its choice of big viewfinders and ergonomics too as well as having leaf shutter lenses with fast sync speeds. I also like the MF crop much better than the 3::2 of DSLR's.   And as pointed out, I can still shoot film with them if I choose.  For me its a much better fit than any of the DSLR's.

I have a nikon F4 that once in a while I'll pick up and shoot film with and I always wonder why Nikon couldn't get such a nice viewfinder in one of their DSLR's.  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 21, 2013, 11:34:50 AM
Hi,

For me it is a bit the other way around. I have a Sony Alpha 900 and a Sony SLT 99. The Alpha 900 was regarded to have one of the better optical viewfinders among DSLRs, the SLT has an electronic viewfinder. On the other hand, the SLT has live view, which is essentially one of the main reasons I bought it, the other is it has workable presets.

So I have a camera with a great optical viewfinder and one with a so so electonic one, but I still use the EVF camera mostly, because I can use live view to focus. Other advantages are less vibrations because it does not have a moving mirror and it also has electronic first curtain, and a nifty virtual horizon.

Best regards
Erik

> quote asmp   I'd still rather shoot a medium format camera. For many various reasons that I find important to me.

Yes, its seemed to have gotten lost somewhere until ASMP (+6) brought it to the fore that people have a choice.  I still shoot MFDB for a lot of reasons, but one of them is just that I like the look of the image better.  I like the camera (Rollei AFi/Hy6/6008) for its choice of big viewfinders and ergonomics too as well as having leaf shutter lenses with fast sync speeds. I also like the MF crop much better than the 3::2 of DSLR's.   And as pointed out, I can still shoot film with them if I choose.  For me its a much better fit than any of the DSLR's.

I have a nikon F4 that once in a while I'll pick up and shoot film with and I always wonder why Nikon couldn't get such a nice viewfinder in one of their DSLR's.  
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: FredBGG on May 21, 2013, 12:21:52 PM
Fred, you remind me of those christian fanatics who oppose gay marriage.

Hmmm. Have you ever collected signatures in support of gay marriage?
Have you ever dedicated some real time to it?

I know the issue well and support equal rights. I have several close relatives that are gay
but would still support equal rights regardless.

Where have I forced anyone to stop shooting MF?

I certainly have not in this thread.

I shoot MF as well as large format.

I don't have as you claim some sort of faith based opposition to MFD.
If I did why on earth would I have lent a Fuji GX680 system to a photographer
I only met in a single PM on lula to use with an IQ back for a couple of weeks?

Going back to the Christian fanatic comparison I find it offensive to throw around those words.
I am an atheist, but have respect for other peoples faiths.
Despite being an atheist I had no problem volunteering with the Comboni Missionaries
over many years.

Call me out if you wish, but have the class to leave out peoples religions in your attacks.

To make another analogy while I support equal rights (gay marriage) I am not ideologically opposed to someone that does not support
it. They have the right to choose to not support it by not marrying someone of the same sex as well as not supporting
changing current laws, but they do not have IMO the right to impose their beliefs on a a gay couple that wants to get married.

Find me one instance where I have forcibly stopped someone from shooting MF....
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: sgilbert on May 21, 2013, 12:33:53 PM
Ha.  Another point for Fred:  no one can point to his ever threatening a photographer who wanted to use DMF.

If you respond to or discuss anything he says, he wins.  Mea culpa.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 21, 2013, 01:10:30 PM
Hi,

I guess that Fred has a different view, simply, he is entiled to it. If you make a large investment I would say it makes a lot of sense to listen to all arguments before committing.

Best regards
Erik

Ha.  Another point for Fred:  no one can point to his ever threatening a photographer who wanted to use DMF.

If you respond to or discuss anything he says, he wins.  Mea culpa.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: amsp on May 21, 2013, 01:14:23 PM
Hmmm. Have you ever collected signatures in support of gay marriage?
Have you ever dedicated some real time to it?

I know the issue well and support equal rights. I have several close relatives that are gay
but would still support equal rights regardless.

Where have I forced anyone to stop shooting MF?

I certainly have not in this thread.

I shoot MF as well as large format.

I don't have as you claim some sort of faith based opposition to MFD.
If I did why on earth would I have lent a Fuji GX680 system to a photographer
I only met in a single PM on lula to use with an IQ back for a couple of weeks?

Going back to the Christian fanatic comparison I find it offensive to throw around those words.
I am an atheist, but have respect for other peoples faiths.
Despite being an atheist I had no problem volunteering with the Comboni Missionaries
over many years.

Call me out if you wish, but have the class to leave out peoples religions in your attacks.

To make another analogy while I support equal rights (gay marriage) I am not ideologically opposed to someone that does not support
it. They have the right to choose to not support it by not marrying someone of the same sex as well as not supporting
changing current laws, but they do not have IMO the right to impose their beliefs on a a gay couple that wants to get married.

Find me one instance where I have forcibly stopped someone from shooting MF....

Yet again you pull out the victim card when someone confronts you on your absolutely ridiculous behavior, huh? Big surprise there. Fred, I can't even take you seriously enough anymore to argue with you. Like most people who have been around here for some time I've realized it's about as constructive as beating my head against a brick wall. Not once have I seen you actually listen to criticism, you construe everything people say to fit your agenda, and no matter what you seem hellbent on making a complete fool of yourself. It's like you're living in your own little universe of self delusion.

So, go ahead and do your thing, but don't expect people will keep dancing to your tune. Besides, anyone who's interested can just google your screen name and make up their own mind whether or not your intentions are as pure as you keep claiming, it's quite simple really.

Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 21, 2013, 02:48:21 PM
I'm not particularly offended by Fred's postings. As I see it constant criticism is no more tiring than constant fanboyism. He does post informative and helpful things too. The quarrels can be tiring at times but I'm still drawn to these threads to watch the carnage :)

As much as I like my MFD tech camera I'm not particularly fond of the way the digital medium format industry works. There's good and there's bad, and indeed the quality level of smaller formats is now so high and the MFD cost level is still the same that it's becoming increasingly difficult to find rational reasons to shoot MFD. I have a few and they suffice for me so far, but I think it would be possible to make it a bit more easy to be a MFD photographer than it is today.

Key to that is the MFD companies actually want to reach more customers in new markets and sell more products, with some more mass-market thinking we could get products with lower pricing that are easier to support. I think they should look more into the market of advanced amateurs, not just rich amateurs. There one can find a mass-market. It seems like there's a move in the opposite direction though, into industrial, reproduction and scientific photography, which is a great market to be in if you want to sell low amounts of something really expensive that require lots of support :)
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 21, 2013, 04:09:02 PM
Yeah but what's the point of all that then? There are people building gear. Nikon is one, Phase is another one etc...each brand with its own vision, politics, designs etc etc...
A brand or a system is not pleasing someone? A customer service is not satisfying someone? A design is not suiting someone? Tech-performances is not, is not is not... Perfect.
Well change the brand and that's it. Stop to use stuff one don't like. Nikon and Canon have been doing great stuff for decades. And ?
Criticism is always good. But when it becomes all the time, at each oportunity, with the very same argumentation over and over again, targeting the same gear over and over again,
it stops to be constructive and starts to be something else; a crusade.

Somebody express his-her opinions one 2 or 3 time and that's it. We know what the person thinks, we got the points. What's the need of more and more of the same?

I mean, why it has to be even debated? Do people really think that Hassy or Phase executives are really going to change their politics and roadmaps by reading those threads?

If it was the case it would be remotly, remotly usefull. But it ain't gona happen.


Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Gigi on May 21, 2013, 04:15:34 PM
I'm not particularly offended by Fred's postings. As I see it constant criticism is no more tiring than constant fanboyism. He does post informative and helpful things too. The quarrels can be tiring at times but I'm still drawn to these threads to watch the carnage :)

As much as I like my MFD tech camera I'm not particularly fond of the way the digital medium format industry works. There's good and there's bad, and indeed the quality level of smaller formats is now so high and the MFD cost level is still the same that it's becoming increasingly difficult to find rational reasons to shoot MFD. I have a few and they suffice for me so far, but I think it would be possible to make it a bit more easy to be a MFD photographer than it is today.

Key to that is the MFD companies actually want to reach more customers in new markets and sell more products, with some more mass-market thinking we could get products with lower pricing that are easier to support. I think they should look more into the market of advanced amateurs, not just rich amateurs. There one can find a mass-market. It seems like there's a move in the opposite direction though, into industrial, reproduction and scientific photography, which is a great market to be in if you want to sell low amounts of something really expensive that require lots of support :)

Two views of the same thing: one is from the consumer viewpoint, the other more aware of the maker's view. Given the small number of units actually made, I consider us just plain old lucky to have the options we have. Imagine if they were all to pack up and go home....

Both views are valid, but in the interest of civilty, its useful to recognize the shortcomings of each: the consumer viewpoint wonders why these companies don't adjust more rapidly with the times, and meet possibly emerging markets, discount to raise market share, and provide what seem to be reasonable conveniences. The "makers view" recognizes the limited support capabilities of these smaller companies, the important role of a dealership struggle, and frankly put, will accept some deficiencies in their affection for the product line. They can also (sometimes) veer into apologists for the company, although folks have been pretty circumspect on this forum.

Those that are interested in bashing or pushing their point of view repeatedly to the exclusion of others are (IMHO) not doing any of us a service, much less themselves. Like someone said, imagine saying what you wrote on the 'net to someone's face: is that how you want it to be heard? While a bit of carnage, or even bloodsport, can be healthy to knock folks off pedestals, done repeatedly its a disservice to the community. 
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: TMARK on May 21, 2013, 04:36:34 PM
Two views of the same thing: one is from the consumer viewpoint, the other more aware of the maker's view. Given the small number of units actually made, I consider us just plain old lucky to have the options we have. Imagine if they were all to pack up and go home....

Both views are valid, but in the interest of civilty, its useful to recognize the shortcomings of each: the consumer viewpoint wonders why these companies don't adjust more rapidly with the times, and meet possibly emerging markets, discount to raise market share, and provide what seem to be reasonable conveniences. The "makers view" recognizes the limited support capabilities of these smaller companies, the important role of a dealership struggle, and frankly put, will accept some deficiencies in their affection for the product line. They can also (sometimes) veer into apologists for the company, although folks have been pretty circumspect on this forum.

Those that are interested in bashing or pushing their point of view repeatedly to the exclusion of others are (IMHO) not doing any of us a service, much less themselves. Like someone said, imagine saying what you wrote on the 'net to someone's face: is that how you want it to be heard? While a bit of carnage, or even bloodsport, can be healthy to knock folks off pedestals, done repeatedly its a disservice to the community. 

Yes.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 21, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
Two views of the same thing: one is from the consumer viewpoint, the other more aware of the maker's view. Given the small number of units actually made, I consider us just plain old lucky to have the options we have. Imagine if they were all to pack up and go home....

Both views are valid, but in the interest of civilty, its useful to recognize the shortcomings of each: the consumer viewpoint wonders why these companies don't adjust more rapidly with the times, and meet possibly emerging markets, discount to raise market share, and provide what seem to be reasonable conveniences. The "makers view" recognizes the limited support capabilities of these smaller companies, the important role of a dealership struggle, and frankly put, will accept some deficiencies in their affection for the product line. They can also (sometimes) veer into apologists for the company, although folks have been pretty circumspect on this forum.

Those that are interested in bashing or pushing their point of view repeatedly to the exclusion of others are (IMHO) not doing any of us a service, much less themselves. Like someone said, imagine saying what you wrote on the 'net to someone's face: is that how you want it to be heard? While a bit of carnage, or even bloodsport, can be healthy to knock folks off pedestals, done repeatedly its a disservice to the community. 
Yes 2
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: EricWHiss on May 21, 2013, 06:00:10 PM
yes 3
Well put Geoff and thanks!
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 22, 2013, 02:42:47 AM
Two views of the same thing:

Well put. I have a principle to not participate in quarrels or make personal attacks regardless. If it gets too ugly, I just walk away, or start talking about something else :).

They're selling a very very expensive product. With that comes a huge responsibility which should not be taken lightly. If a customer gets support issues with that kind of money involved there's a high risk that the customer becomes pretty aggressive.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: ErikKaffehr on May 22, 2013, 02:59:31 AM
Hi,

I got the impression that Hasselblad is going a different route. In Sweden it seems that entry level Hasselblads are available at decent prices. I guess that Hasselblad sort of goes for value for the price, while Phase one is more moving to exclusivity, at least that was part of the impression I got from the interview with P1 CEO here on LuLa.

Now, it seems Phase One is doing well. Hasselblad, I don't have the slightest idea.

Best regards
Erik


Well put. I have a principle to not participate in quarrels or make personal attacks regardless. If it gets too ugly, I just walk away, or start talking about something else :).

They're selling a very very expensive product. With that comes a huge responsibility which should not be taken lightly. If a customer gets support issues with that kind of money involved there's a high risk that the customer becomes pretty aggressive.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 22, 2013, 03:19:48 AM
Somebody express his-her opinions one 2 or 3 time and that's it. We know what the person thinks, we got the points. What's the need of more and more of the same?

If you actually take the time to think about this, the answer is obvious. And once you realise what the answer is, you'll view this forum and the way people interact with it in a totally different way.

The answer is this:

1. Many different people come here and ask the same questions again and again.
2. Pretty much the same individuals provide answers to those questions. And of course, they're going to be the same answers from the same individuals. Again and again.

The problem, is that there are many people here who read everything. The regulars. They read the same questions - from different people each time - and then they go on to see the same people (such as Fred) giving answers they've seen time and time again, with the same opinions and evidence that they're totally fed up with reading.

But you know what? You already knowing Fred's opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, is totally irrelevant. It's not your problem. You're not the one asking the question.

It wasn't a regular who asked the question. That guy who comes in here and asks "Choosing a mfd platform, please help" is going to get Doug telling him to work with a dealer, he's going to get Fred saying check out the Fuji GX680, and he's going to get people like geesbert coming out with crap such as "I knew it was time for that crotch shot again!" when Fred posts the same sample images.

What this forum doesn't need is the same old usual suspects then piling in whinging and moaning about "oh god, not that bloody shot again", "not the same old crap from Fred about his trials and tribulations with the Phase One body", "oh christ it's the bloody GX680" and to be perfectly frank, not my "oh FFS there goes Doug yet again trying to get a sale".

Because when those people do that, the thread descends into the all too frequent risible mess.

Once you appreciate that different people come here and ask the same questions over and over again, then hopefully you'll appreciate that those people deserve to get a rounded set of views and opinions. And they deserve to get a rounded set of views and opinions without the regulars piling in and having the same old fight between themselves over and over again.

So how about this.

Next time someone comes into this forum to ask for some advice, how about we help them out without going "oh god not that shit again" and without taking potshots at individuals simply because we're bored of what they have to say, or because we already know what their opinions are? The OP clearly hasn't seen it all before, because if they had, they wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

Is it really that difficult?

If you don't want to see Fred's advice to someone who is asking a question that has already been answered countless times before, why on Earth do you even bother to read the thread?
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: torger on May 22, 2013, 03:32:50 AM
If you actually take the time to think about this, the answer is obvious.

*like* :), I could not have said it better myself. Topics repeat themselves, unavoidable. I too like to help people out with the things I've learnt so far so I'm too guilty of repeating myself.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Martin Ranger on May 22, 2013, 05:02:02 AM

Next time someone comes into this forum to ask for some advice, how about we help them out without going "oh god not that shit again" and without taking potshots at individuals simply because we're bored of what they have to say, or because we already know what their opinions are? The OP clearly hasn't seen it all before, because if they had, they wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

Is it really that difficult?

If you don't want to see Fred's advice to someone who is asking a question that has already been answered countless times before, why on Earth do you even bother to read the thread?

Well said, Gerald.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: lowep on May 22, 2013, 05:34:17 AM
maybe it would be good to shift this discussion about who should do and say what to the coffee corner so the rest of us can continue the discussion about equipment techniques > medium format /film /digital backs - and large sensor photography.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: yaya on May 22, 2013, 06:02:20 AM
maybe it would be good to shift this discussion about who should do and say what to the coffee corner so the rest of us can continue the discussion about equipment techniques > medium format /film /digital backs - and large sensor photography.

+1

And a note to Gerald; Peter started this thread and called it "Worldwide medium format market" and not "buying MF, which way to go" but unfortunately it took no more than 6 posts for a certain individual to go on the attack and drive this (potentially interesting) discussion south. 11 pages later nobody even remembers what the topic was and it is all about fighting eachother's corner...

The search facility on this forum is quite good and as a general advice to newcomers I would recommend spending some time searching: They can have their answers there and can also learn to know what the regulars are like, who talks from experience, who talks from google and who just talks...

Peace

Yair
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: gerald.d on May 22, 2013, 06:37:32 AM
And a note to Gerald;

Total non sequitur.

I was responding to a specific comment made by someone else on page 10.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

But thanks for taking the time out of your day to illustrate the point I was making perfectly.
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Graham Welland on May 23, 2013, 10:30:01 PM
I had a stamp collection a long time ago but I transitioned to etchings ...  :P
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2013, 04:10:26 AM
I had a stamp collection a long time ago but I transitioned to etchings ...  :P



I made myself a website and now nobody comes to the apartment.

That's called freedom; you know, just another word for nothing left to lose.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2013, 06:22:25 AM
Now there's an idea. The Coffee Corner is a war zone complete with its own mafia bosses so it isn't as if the shift would do any further harm.


Now that's life through blinkers, Keith.

The 'zone' is war, all right, but only of ideas; there is no Capo dei Capi there at all - each opinion is as valid, absurd or as disputed as the next. It's somewhere to stetch the legs - a walk in the park, perhaps? Hopefully, it lets us share a little more than widgets, instruction manuals and how to use them.

I think it's often quite fun. And free!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on May 24, 2013, 06:38:50 AM
I can see Keith's point though, it's funny that whenever I click on a topic in the coffee corner I find that it's just a long list of empty posts with the label 'you have blocked this user' on each one :D
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2013, 08:31:47 AM
Rob, quite possibly, but surely preferable to a virtual life.


Ouch!

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2013, 08:33:30 AM
I can see Keith's point though, it's funny that whenever I click on a topic in the coffee corner I find that it's just a long list of empty posts with the label 'you have blocked this user' on each one :D

Off the top of my head, I can only remember one that the OP closed down because he wanted to fade out on the last word...

But are we not fortunate that we operate, here, in a world without obligations, beyond civil conduct?

Rob C
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: eronald on May 25, 2013, 03:59:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I can only remember one that the OP closed down because he wanted to fade out on the last word...

But are we not fortunate that we operate, here, in a world without obligations, beyond civil conduct?

Rob C
There are a few phil quotes I know - I put them in chinese cookies and serve them :)
.
Hell is the Other (free translation)

Edmund
Title: Re: Worldwide medium format market
Post by: GWStudioLA on May 26, 2013, 10:18:07 PM
There are a few phil quotes I know - I put them in chinese cookies and serve them :)
.
Hell is the Other (free translation)

Edmund

You know that they aren't really Chinese cookies...just an American invention ;)

Speaking of China..I heard that Wen Hua is coming out with a new square chip close to 180 megapixel and will be released in a revolutionary back in China first. Does anyone here have more info on this?