Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: rgg195 on May 09, 2013, 09:22:18 pm

Title: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rgg195 on May 09, 2013, 09:22:18 pm
Hi all

I have been reading here for a long time and buying videos and courses - which are great.

I am moving on from Adobe and am figuring out the best way to move Lightroom photos to Aperture and DxO Optics. Importing the raw files into the new system is no problem of course, but keeping the work I have done to those photos in Lighroom is the tricky part.

I think the best way to do this is to "burn" all the photos with adjustments into a 16 bit tiff file and import those to the new system. The tricky part is going through my catalog and finding all the photos with adjustments and exporting them as TIFF's.

My question is there a way to search Lightroom to find only photos with adjustments and then to batch export them all as TIFF, preferably to the same folder as the original raw file?

Any suggestions or help would be appreciated. Maybe there is already a thread about this and a pointer to that thread would be helpful

Cheers and thanks,
Guy
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: kaelaria on May 09, 2013, 11:58:35 pm
You have to create a smart collection, set it to Has Adjustments is True.  Export it however you like with the given options.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 12:26:50 am
I am moving on from Adobe and am figuring out the best way to move Lightroom photos to Aperture and DxO Optics. Importing the raw files into the new system is no problem of course, but keeping the work I have done to those photos in Lighroom is the tricky part.

You can't...when it comes to raw image processing, all the processors have completely different image processing controls. So what you apply in LR won't translate to Aperture of Capture One in the raw files...

And yes, you can go ahead and render the raw files to TIFFs, but they are no longer raw...they are gamma and color space encoded. I think this is a suboptimal approach...

While you may be pissed at the whole CC thing, I suggest that it would behoove you to think about the full ramifications of your actions. If you take your raw files to Aperture (or any other raw processor) in essence, you must start over from scratch...is this really what you want to do? Is this why you shot raw? Is this really in your best interests?
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Glenn NK on May 10, 2013, 12:39:27 am
Would converting to DNG be a viable option?

Yes I know it's an Adobe format, but they've been pushing it as a universal "RAW" file.

Glenn
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 01:03:12 am
Would converting to DNG be a viable option?

No, not if you want the time you've spent arriving at optimal image adjustments because hose adjustments can not be duplicated in non-Adobe software. So, DNG won't keep you from starting from scratch regarding setting...
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rasterdogs on May 10, 2013, 01:15:09 am
You can't...when it comes to raw image processing, all the processors have completely different image processing controls. So what you apply in LR won't translate to Aperture of Capture One in the raw files...

And yes, you can go ahead and render the raw files to TIFFs, but they are no longer raw...they are gamma and color space encoded. I think this is a suboptimal approach...

While you may be pissed at the whole CC thing, I suggest that it would behoove you to think about the full ramifications of your actions. If you take your raw files to Aperture (or any other raw processor) in essence, you must start over from scratch...is this really what you want to do? Is this why you shot raw? Is this really in your best interests?

Suboptimal is a good characterization of the entire situation.
 
I understand Mr. Schewe's point from a technical point of view.

For me there are additional ramifications.
I'll continue to use LR skeptically. I'm abandoning the use of PS.

I'll go back to my older, less abstract file naming and tree structure. I'll export my keeper images as TIFFs.
I'm unlikely to upgrade to LR5. I'll reduce my purchases of LR training videos. I'll miss the great LULA LR videos but know enough to get by.
In short I'll pack my chute while continuing to us LR. I'll give the LR alternatives a good, hard look. I've always been curious about Aperture and Capture One
but was persuaded that the Adobe products were the bees knees.

For the ~15 years that I've used Adobe products I was a real proponent for the company and it's products. No longer.
I now understand that Adobe has little, if any regard, for me as a 'hobbyist photographer.
In one swell foop Adobe has taught me not to trust them.

Maybe they will continue to develop/support and price LR for the 'little people', maybe not.

Next time one of my friends asks about photo software the first thing I'll do is warn them about Adobe. Caveat Emptor.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 01:25:05 am
I'm unlikely to upgrade to LR5.

Hum, you sure? LR5 has some interesting and potentially useful new features that will help you arrive at better image quality more efficently...you sure you want to walk away from that considering LR5 is likely to be a $79 upgrade? Are you sure your anger at Adobe is worth it to yourself to short change your own work?

Look, Lightroom is the only Adobe application that was designed for photographers. Photoshop started life as a graphic file format conversion utility. Photoshop was not designed to be used by photographers, even though a lot of photographers found it useful.

You are free to vote with your wallet...it's an economic vote that only you can cast. But, if you are a LR user, are you really sure Adobe's CC announcement is enough of an insult that you want to cut your nose off simply to to spite your face?
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rasterdogs on May 10, 2013, 01:32:35 am
Hum, you sure? LR5 has some interesting and potentially useful new features that will help you arrive at better image quality more efficently...you sure you want to walk away from that considering LR5 is likely to be a $79 upgrade? Are you sure your anger at Adobe is worth it to yourself to short change your own work?

Look, Lightroom is the only Adobe application that was designed for photographers. Photoshop started life as a graphic file format conversion utility. Photoshop was not designed to be used by photographers, even though a lot of photographers found it useful.

You are free to vote with your wallet...it's an economic vote that only you can cast. But, if you are a LR user, are you really sure Adobe's CC announcement is enough of an insult that you want to cut your nose off simply to to spite your face?

I guess I have some pondering to do. Prior to this cloudy stuff I'd have jumped at this in a New York minute. The tool is great but for me I now know that the company sucks.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 01:44:49 am
The tool is great but for me I now know that the company sucks.

Is that really your perception or are you being swayed that the hype and rhetoric and doom & gloom that a few really strident users are screaming about?

Stop for a moment and contemplate what you think you know and compare it to the other side is claiming...

Look, Thomas Knoll who essentially single handedly bootstrapped this entire industry into existence is still working for Adobe...Eric Chan (MadmanChan here on LuLa) are still in control of the Camera Raw processing pipeline and added some cool new stuff in LR5.

Can you think for yourself? Are you making a decision based on logic and knowledge or are you reacting based on fear, uncertainty and doubt. Which the anti-Adobe group seems really good at doing (and jumping all over anybody who dares to take issue with the FUD).

Think for yourself...LR5 is a good, not great update–and the only product designed from the ground up for photographers. LR5 adds additional features and functionality that makes Photoshop even less required and needed on a 90/10 basis.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 10, 2013, 02:49:08 am
The tool is great but for me I now know that the company sucks.

Is it Lightroom you spend hours with or is it Adobe Systems Incorporated you spend hours with? ;-)
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on May 10, 2013, 02:53:08 am
I've got around 3000 6MP Pentax Raw PEFs with ACR 4.6 generated .xmp side car edits. Which version of Lightroom (4 or 5) will read them if by chance I switch to Lightroom (which I'm now seriously considering)?

I just hope one of those LR versions runs on my mid 2010 Mac Mini without slowing things down. I've really become used to ACR 4.6's immediate preview response to slider and curve adjusts. Other Raw converters have as much as a 6-10 second delay to the preview update with every slider adjust.

Probably going to have fork over another $600-$800 for a newer Mac Mini.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: John Cothron on May 10, 2013, 07:56:14 am
Seems a little premature to jump ship from Lightroom at this point, at least in my opinion.  I can definitely understand the concern however, and I really hope people like Thomas and Eric are noting the apparent discontent with a subscription based service and getting that information to the people forwarding the concept.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: sniper on May 10, 2013, 08:35:01 am
I have to say I'm supprised by the numbers of people now looking for lightroom alternatives< i expected it with the photoshop CC thing (And I'm one who won't be going cloud) but the shift from LR caught me by supprise.  Just doing a straw poll with companies and friends we work with showed a supprising number looking to move away from adobe. 
I'm glad I don't have shares from what I'm seeing anyway.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: jed best on May 10, 2013, 08:45:53 am
Jeff's advise makes perfect sense to me. Since most use Lightroom and not necessarily Photoshop, why cease using an excellent product just because of Adobe's decision regarding Photoshop. At the present time, it is my understanding that Lightroom is not going to be restricted by the same policies affecting Photoshop.

Well that is my 2 cents, anyway.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: s4e on May 10, 2013, 08:59:45 am
I've got around 3000 6MP Pentax Raw PEFs with ACR 4.6 generated .xmp side car edits. Which version of Lightroom (4 or 5) will read them if by chance I switch to Lightroom (which I'm now seriously considering)?

I just hope one of those LR versions runs on my mid 2010 Mac Mini without slowing things down. I've really become used to ACR 4.6's immediate preview response to slider and curve adjusts. Other Raw converters have as much as a 6-10 second delay to the preview update with every slider adjust.

Probably going to have fork over another $600-$800 for a newer Mac Mini.

I would have waited for LR5 and test if everything is working with a trial. Perhaps LR5 will have some new functions that will demand more processing power but I'm quite sure the core functionality will run even faster then LR4.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rasterdogs on May 10, 2013, 09:02:15 am
Is that really your perception or are you being swayed that the hype and rhetoric and doom & gloom that a few really strident users are screaming about?

Stop for a moment and contemplate what you think you know and compare it to the other side is claiming...

Look, Thomas Knoll who essentially single handedly bootstrapped this entire industry into existence is still working for Adobe...Eric Chan (MadmanChan here on LuLa) are still in control of the Camera Raw processing pipeline and added some cool new stuff in LR5.

Can you think for yourself? Are you making a decision based on logic and knowledge or are you reacting based on fear, uncertainty and doubt. Which the anti-Adobe group seems really good at doing (and jumping all over anybody who dares to take issue with the FUD).

Think for yourself...LR5 is a good, not great update–and the only product designed from the ground up for photographers. LR5 adds additional features and functionality that makes Photoshop even less required and needed on a 90/10 basis.


Jeff, I am thinking for myself. I've seen no real convincing presentation from Adobe clearly declaring that they value us 'hobbyists' and fully intend to keep LR a non-subscription tool.
This statement from Adobe VP  Winston Hendrickson does little to bolster my optimism about Adobe and their 'commitment' to the "hobbyist photographic community".

DPR questioner>Were you expecting such a negative response from the photographic community?
"We expected a higher degree of this type of reaction from the hobbyist photographic community because currently there's not a lot of photography-specific value in our subscription products."

We can debate Adobe's 'intentions' but they've fooled me once on PS. I may not abandon LR but I'll certainly modify my workflow to be ready to completely abandon Adobe products.  
 
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: HSakols on May 10, 2013, 09:18:30 am
I also feel a bit unsettled using adobe's evil plan, especially considering how much time and effort I've put into lightroom. If they decide to put photoshop in the cloud lightroom will follow - unless this just backfires on adobe like the whole Netflix fiasco.  Then again if this all goes into a cloud, the competition might come up with a better alternative. 

Now if Adobe would help my public school with making technology more accessible for my students, I'd gladly pay $100.00 a year.  I wrote them years ago but never even got a reply. 
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rgg195 on May 10, 2013, 09:49:50 am
Thanks for the help. I know there is no optimal solution but then again not much in life is optimal. In the future I am going to generate high res TIFF files for all the images that I have "finished" or "nearly finished" and keep them next to the original raw file, so if things change and I need to move it won't be as hard. I think this actually should be a best practice that everyone should consider. In the meantime I have some work to do.

As for the future of Lightroom, Adobe as far as I can tell, has been non-committal about whether Lightroom will always be available as a non-cloud, non rent only, solution. I think they have said Lightroom 5 will be, but who knows about the future, and to be honest I am not convinced that Adobe is really interested in the hobbyist or amateur markets, they seem to be focused on the "professional" market that treats software as a monthly line item expense that can be easily managed. This fine for Adobe, but not so good for us - the amateur, hobbyist, or individual photographers. And, as was mentioned, the only vote that really counts is the "economic vote", and thats the only one that Adobe and most other large corporations listen to.

Thanks again everyone, take care, consider future proofing your work in some manner, and reward good behaviour - carrots work better than sticks.

Cheers
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: RFPhotography on May 10, 2013, 10:12:41 am
I've got around 3000 6MP Pentax Raw PEFs with ACR 4.6 generated .xmp side car edits. Which version of Lightroom (4 or 5) will read them if by chance I switch to Lightroom (which I'm now seriously considering)?

I just hope one of those LR versions runs on my mid 2010 Mac Mini without slowing things down. I've really become used to ACR 4.6's immediate preview response to slider and curve adjusts. Other Raw converters have as much as a 6-10 second delay to the preview update with every slider adjust.

Probably going to have fork over another $600-$800 for a newer Mac Mini.

Any version of LR will 'read' the RAW files.  LR will pick up the edits in the xmp files and render the image using the appropriate Process Version.  Despite PV2012 being the most current, LR still has previous Process Versions (2010 & 2003) available and is backward compatible with files processed in previous versions.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rgg195 on May 10, 2013, 10:27:19 am
You have to create a smart collection, set it to Has Adjustments is True.  Export it however you like with the given options.

Thanks - that will work!
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: madmanchan on May 10, 2013, 10:39:30 am
I have indeed been reading all of the threads here (and Michael's article from yesterday).  It is true that Thomas and I are not executives and therefore don't directly make business/pricing decisions.  This may not help the sentiment out there ... but here goes anyways: Thomas and I very much understand the concerns of photographers, especially the hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't need/want the full CC suite and just want to use Ps and/or Lr.  We know that there are lots of concerns about (1) price, both short-term and long-term, esp. for those who used to skip every other Ps version (upgrading on a relaxed schedule) (2) being "locked in" or "imprisoned" into an Adobe-only system, and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.).  This is actually easy for me to keep in mind, because before I joined Adobe as a developer I was a user and hobbyist photographer (still am).  So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rasterdogs on May 10, 2013, 11:07:21 am
I have indeed been reading all of the threads here (and Michael's article from yesterday).  It is true that Thomas and I are not executives and therefore don't directly make business/pricing decisions.  This may not help the sentiment out there ... but here goes anyways: Thomas and I very much understand the concerns of photographers, especially the hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't need/want the full CC suite and just want to use Ps and/or Lr.  We know that there are lots of concerns about (1) price, both short-term and long-term, esp. for those who used to skip every other Ps version (upgrading on a relaxed schedule) (2) being "locked in" or "imprisoned" into an Adobe-only system, and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.).  This is actually easy for me to keep in mind, because before I joined Adobe as a developer I was a user and hobbyist photographer (still am).  So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.

Eric, 

Well done and thanks.

It amazes me that the folks doing the work (fantastic work) express more support and concern than does Adobe management.

For longer than I want to reveal I've worked in high tech and have seen that companies get so big that they are brought down by their own presumptions.

Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: John Cothron on May 10, 2013, 11:08:13 am
I have indeed been reading all of the threads here (and Michael's article from yesterday).  It is true that Thomas and I are not executives and therefore don't directly make business/pricing decisions.  This may not help the sentiment out there ... but here goes anyways: Thomas and I very much understand the concerns of photographers, especially the hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't need/want the full CC suite and just want to use Ps and/or Lr.  We know that there are lots of concerns about (1) price, both short-term and long-term, esp. for those who used to skip every other Ps version (upgrading on a relaxed schedule) (2) being "locked in" or "imprisoned" into an Adobe-only system, and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.).  This is actually easy for me to keep in mind, because before I joined Adobe as a developer I was a user and hobbyist photographer (still am).  So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.

Eric,

Thank you very much for your statement.  Reasonably, I think that is all we can ask and I certainly appreciate your position as it pertains to the future direction Adobe may or may not take.

John
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: John Cothron on May 10, 2013, 11:10:00 am

It amazes me that the folks doing the work (fantastic work) express more support and concern than does Adobe management.

For longer than I want to reveal I've worked in high tech and have seen that companies get so big that they are brought down by their own presumptions.



It doesn't surprise me at all.  MANY large companies seem to lose sight of what got them there in the first place, hence your second point which I totally agree with.  When you have people calling the shots that are not in touch with the customer base, this is exactly what can happen.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Morris Taub on May 10, 2013, 11:16:52 am
I have indeed been reading all of the threads here (and Michael's article from yesterday).  It is true that Thomas and I are not executives and therefore don't directly make business/pricing decisions.  This may not help the sentiment out there ... but here goes anyways: Thomas and I very much understand the concerns of photographers, especially the hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't need/want the full CC suite and just want to use Ps and/or Lr.  We know that there are lots of concerns about (1) price, both short-term and long-term, esp. for those who used to skip every other Ps version (upgrading on a relaxed schedule) (2) being "locked in" or "imprisoned" into an Adobe-only system, and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.).  This is actually easy for me to keep in mind, because before I joined Adobe as a developer I was a user and hobbyist photographer (still am).  So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.

Eric, just wanted to thank you for your thoughts. It's a real joy to read what you wrote. After several days of nearly non stop negativity about adobe's policy changes, this brings some relief for me. I hope you and Thomas can push for some positive change. Good luck.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rasterdogs on May 10, 2013, 11:18:07 am
It doesn't surprise me at all.  MANY large companies seem to lose sight of what got them there in the first place, hence your second point which I totally agree with.  When you have people calling the shots that are not in touch with the customer base, this is exactly what can happen.
There may be a clue here. Internet research has revealed the favored beverage (http://http://www.stonebrew.com/arrogantbastard/) in the Adobe executive suite.   ;)
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 11:19:47 am
I've got around 3000 6MP Pentax Raw PEFs with ACR 4.6 generated .xmp side car edits. Which version of Lightroom (4 or 5) will read them if by chance I switch to Lightroom (which I'm now seriously considering)?

Either LR4 or LR5 will read your existing raw files and the .xmp sidecar files and import your PEFs into LR and respect (maintain) your settings and adjustments...but know this, ACR 4.6 is way, way old and you are likely going to find your old processing can now be updated and you'll be able to get a lot better results and image quality from you originals that you could with ACR 4.6. I would suggest trying the LR5 beta on some copies of your raw files (to be safe) and see what the new processing can do for you–particularly images whose scene is very high contrast. LR4 came with a brand new process version (2012) that can extract a lot more detail and texture from highlights and shadows.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: JRSmit on May 10, 2013, 11:37:50 am
Is that really your perception or are you being swayed that the hype and rhetoric and doom & gloom that a few really strident users are screaming about?

Stop for a moment and contemplate what you think you know and compare it to the other side is claiming...

Look, Thomas Knoll who essentially single handedly bootstrapped this entire industry into existence is still working for Adobe...Eric Chan (MadmanChan here on LuLa) are still in control of the Camera Raw processing pipeline and added some cool new stuff in LR5.

Can you think for yourself? Are you making a decision based on logic and knowledge or are you reacting based on fear, uncertainty and doubt. Which the anti-Adobe group seems really good at doing (and jumping all over anybody who dares to take issue with the FUD).

Think for yourself...LR5 is a good, not great update–and the only product designed from the ground up for photographers. LR5 adds additional features and functionality that makes Photoshop even less required and needed on a 90/10 basis.

+1
I decided on good grounds to move to Lightroom a couple of years ago. The cloud of dust raised by the CC announcements does not change that.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on May 10, 2013, 11:44:29 am
Eric, just wanted to thank you for your thoughts.

Ditto.

Rest assured, we understand that you are as much a victim of the situation as we are. It brings back, not so fond, memories of my time as a vice-chairman of the Kodak Works Council, having to comment to the national press agency on a 7000+ layoff plan.

Keep up the spirit, and your good work.

Thanks,
Bart
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Bryan Conner on May 10, 2013, 11:47:25 am
I have indeed been reading all of the threads here (and Michael's article from yesterday).  It is true that Thomas and I are not executives and therefore don't directly make business/pricing decisions.  This may not help the sentiment out there ... but here goes anyways: Thomas and I very much understand the concerns of photographers, especially the hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't need/want the full CC suite and just want to use Ps and/or Lr.  We know that there are lots of concerns about (1) price, both short-term and long-term, esp. for those who used to skip every other Ps version (upgrading on a relaxed schedule) (2) being "locked in" or "imprisoned" into an Adobe-only system, and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.).  This is actually easy for me to keep in mind, because before I joined Adobe as a developer I was a user and hobbyist photographer (still am).  So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.

I would also like to thank you Eric.  

I am no longer a working pro.  I am an American living in Germany now and my German is not good enough to feel comfortable with the level of communication that is needed to be successful.  Maybe I will return one to it one day.  For now, I shoot for myself as well as doing a portrait shoot or wedding as needed for family and close friends...all for free.  So, I will be sticking with LR, upgrading to LR5 as soon as it is available.  I will remain at CS5 as it does everything that I need to do outside of LR.  Heck, if my copy of Photoshop 4 would run in Windows 7 64 bit (will it?), I would probably be satisfied with it.  In other words, losing Photoshop is not a biggie to me since Lightroom has really stepped up to the plate for photographers. Other than adding text to a birthday card for family members, I have probably only sent an image into Photoshop maybe 4-5 times in the past year.  Lightroom 4 rocks.

Now for the future, I will surely have to look for an alternative to CS5...well maybe, who knows what Lightroom 6, or 7 will be like.  I will worry about that when the time comes.  If we could have a version of Photoshop Elements that has 16 bit layers etc, then I think that most photographers would be happy, I know that I would.  I have only briefly used Elements 1 just to check it out when it came with a scanner years ago, so I am not familiar with what is missing that I would use other than 16 bit layers, but I am sure that there may be a few other things, but not many for sure.  

I do not like the ramifications the CC/CS changes have made in my photographic life, but I do not fault Adobe for running their business the way that they wish to run it.  
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on May 10, 2013, 01:51:06 pm
Any version of LR will 'read' the RAW files.  LR will pick up the edits in the xmp files and render the image using the appropriate Process Version.  Despite PV2012 being the most current, LR still has previous Process Versions (2010 & 2003) available and is backward compatible with files processed in previous versions.

Thanks for the confirmation on that, Bob.

I think I'll wait for LR5 to come out and download a trial version to see how it flies on my 2010 Mac Mini.

I have CS5 PS/ACR and don't even use it because Bridge acts kind of funky and PS UI has changed to where I'll have to rearrange my saved "Workspace" and ACR's slider action feels kind of stiff with the preview responses a tad slow, but still better than Pentax's SilkyPix Raw converter which is clunkier than before and clearly uses hue flavors in their green/magenta+amber/blue WB selection that can't touch Adobe's Color Engine driven WB. I'm just so use to the color palette of ACE that's apparent across all their editing tools.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Gothmoth on May 10, 2013, 02:12:16 pm
Is that really your perception or are you being swayed that the hype and rhetoric and doom & gloom that a few really strident users are screaming about?

a few?
you should do a reality check from time to time.

you can spill your marekting blahblah on as much blogs and forums as you like.
it will not change the fact that we, the majority of customers (not adobe guys like yourself), don´t want the adobe cloud.

http://macperformanceguide.com/blog/2013/20130508_1a-Adobe-legal-agreement.html

and what about opening old AE or Premiere projects when a customer decides to use different software?
today i can just install the adobe software again and open my old projects. not the case when i am on subscription.

there are a lot of unanswerd questions.. questions adobe can not answer as it seems.

but sure... adobe guys like you expect us to be just dumb cash cows and buy your overpriced books.

Quote
Can you think for yourself?

can you eat less?
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on May 10, 2013, 02:22:33 pm
Either LR4 or LR5 will read your existing raw files and the .xmp sidecar files and import your PEFs into LR and respect (maintain) your settings and adjustments...but know this, ACR 4.6 is way, way old and you are likely going to find your old processing can now be updated and you'll be able to get a lot better results and image quality from you originals that you could with ACR 4.6. I would suggest trying the LR5 beta on some copies of your raw files (to be safe) and see what the new processing can do for you–particularly images whose scene is very high contrast. LR4 came with a brand new process version (2012) that can extract a lot more detail and texture from highlights and shadows.

Crossed post on ya' there, Jeff.

Yeah, I've been waiting for the newly fixed Fill/Highlight edit induced edge halo artifacts in CS6/LR5 PV2012. And I've tried PV2010 in CS5 and noticed the opened up shadows and added highlight detail recovery but that edge halo thingy is what I wanted the most.

But I forgot to add that I'm running Mac OS 10.6.8 which of course I'm going to have to fork over more money to upgrade to a version that will run LR5 or CS6. The spending seems to never end and it's just pictures.

But that's the whole point about keeping up to date with the latest versions of all software and hardware, it prevents you from adopting the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" workflow philosophy. If I stick with that and the Mac Mini breaks either now or several years later, I'll have to replace it with something new, with new OS that won't run ACR 4.6 which is working fine for me.

And besides that I've actually had to re-edit quite a few ACR 4.6 images because I keep learning new ways of bringing out detail, clarity and depth playing around with those tools which I'll have to relearn and re-edit again in LR5. This has a lot to do with my eyes adapting during long edits trying to find the look while getting a feel for the tools. Raw is a gargantuan space to edit in. There are things I can bring out in an image that surprises me every time.

You don't know how many times I've gone back to images I've spent quite a long time getting to look good, get away for while and come back to 'em and ask..."What the hell was I thinking?"
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: shanly on May 10, 2013, 02:39:34 pm
...and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.). 

Hi Eric.  This quote from you is what is for me the key item. 

If when I stop paying I could still search for and open existing files, export/save them as flattened TIFFs, JPGs or DNGs (my choice) and print them then I would not have such a big issue with subscription.  Obviously, I could not do further editing or import or create new files.  This would apply to both LR and a photographer's version of PS CC.  BTW, being able to print is important because otherwise I lose all of my soft proofing adjustments and saved prints.

If these issues were addressed, then for me we're just arguing about price.  I believe strongly that I should be able to continue to access fully anything that I created while I was paying subscription.

We'll see what happens, but I'm very glad that you understand the requirements.

Cheers,

Selby
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 10, 2013, 03:14:50 pm
If when I stop paying I could still search for and open existing files, export/save them as flattened TIFFs, JPGs or DNGs (my choice) and print them then I would not have such a big issue with subscription.

You choose when you stop paying. So what prevents you from first doing - "export/save them as flattened TIFFs, JPGs or DNGs (my choice) and print " - and only when you have completed those tasks, you finally stop paying and no longer have access PS CC ?
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: John Cothron on May 10, 2013, 03:26:05 pm
being able to export TIFF and JPG is all fine and well, but when you do you lose the RAW information.  DNG maintains that, but then you lose the edits you did in ACR and/or Lr.  To me, that's the problematic part of this concept.  You can have one, or the other.. but once you stop using the subscription service you ARE going to give up something.

With any luck, this will never come to pass as far as Lr is concerned.  We will see.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on May 10, 2013, 03:29:15 pm
Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining about Adobe or Apple or computers in general. I love this industry. I'm trying to point out the nature of the beast working in the fairly new digital processing pipeline ways of image making.

Our toil, time and effort and "creations" are constantly tied to a machine!

What the digital imaging support service industry doesn't seem to realize is what even hobbyist image creators deal with on an image by image basis that NO TUTORIAL/UPGRADE is going to fix or address which is the issue that humans were not meant to work their eye/hand coordination skills on this level of concentration.


Give you an example that's typical of what I deal with on an image by image basis. This is not meant to disparage Adobe but just to show the amount of time we hobbyist "image creators" have to spend on our end and why throwing additional options and features with upgrade after upgrade just makes digital image processing more frustrating and full of fear that all our time and effort will be held captive by not upgrading the machine.


Did a series of macro outdoor nature shots of leaves in which I liked the composition and color. No way to do a custom WB because the light kept changing and exposures varied. Finding something as simple as correct looking WB with these leaves took forever. I couldn't figure out what was wrong because the entire series of macros had various WB shooting at AutoWB. Choosing custom WB would not compensate for the changes. Out in the field a photographer is not always going to have a WB reference or even be able to control it so this is what I've been dealing with in the past week on this series of images...
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: RFPhotography on May 10, 2013, 03:36:43 pm
Probably would have been better, in a situation like that Tim, to shoot on a set WB - whether it was 'right' or not - that way you've got the same starting point for all images and it may be easier to tweak than with different starting points on all images.

But let's look at that situation a little more.  How would the film shooter have done it?  How would the film shooter have compensated in the same situation?  Daylight film?  OK.  That would work for some, but in changing light like you described not all.  Colour correction filters?  OK, which?  Changing filters every few minutes for the changing light?  That's pretty cumbersome and tedious isn't it?  And the correction filters aren't nearly as finely tuned as we can tune WB in the digital world.  So which is better? 

I think sometimes because we have more control with digital than we had with film we expect something closer to perfection.  We end up spending more time on the last few percentage points than it's worth. 
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 03:48:21 pm
can you eat less?

And this contributes to the discussion how?

BTW, I'm now going to start reporting this sort of crap to the monitors (Mike and Chris) so that the overall tone of these debates are not ad hominem attacks but have some useful content to discuss. So, do you have anything useful to say? If not, shut up...

And yes, I should loose weight...that's done by exercising more and yes, eating less.

:~)
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: shanly on May 10, 2013, 03:48:42 pm
You choose when you stop paying. So what prevents you from first doing - "export/save them as flattened TIFFs, JPGs or DNGs (my choice) and print " - and only when you have completed those tasks, you finally stop paying and no longer have access PS CC ?

Of course I could constantly output flattened TIFFs as I go along as insurance against either a price increase or a sudden change in my circumstances.  But why should I have to go through such a grind constantly when it is reasonable to be permitted access to what I have already done?  

It also doesn't answer the question about printing.  I'm supposed to make all the prints I may ever need?  I mention printing because it is reasonable to anticipate that given the current statements from Adobe, that it is possible that some future release of LR will be subscription only so I am also concerned about that possiblity.  Adobe only explicitly addressed LR5.  I do understand that doesn't mean that LR6 will be subscription only, but it does not rule it out either.  We'll all just have to wait and see.  

Of course, I could stop using the new soft proofing support in LR and go back to doing it in PS and flattening the resulting TIFF.  Seems a shame not to use functionality for which I have paid as a licensed LR customer.

Again, all I'm asking for (and Eric's post seemed to recognize this requirement) is access to what I've already paid to be able to do.  Don't lock me out from my existing work or impose a constant overhead on my workflow.

I have LR4 and CS6 and I just upgraded my desktop to the fastest I could get with Windows 7, so I'm ok for quite some time.  No panic, but I'd like to see where it's going and whether I should entertain getting a subscription later if I find the new functionality attractive.  

I will not buy a subscription if it completely locks me out of my files once I stop paying.  In that case, I'll have to incur the overhead of constant preparation to jump to another set of applications when the day comes that my workstation is beyond repair and the new version of Windows is not supported by LR4/5 and PS CS6.  Fortunately that day is likely long off, so again, no panic.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: John Cothron on May 10, 2013, 04:01:47 pm
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something about this whole thing but...

Supposedly Lr5 will be a perpetual license..at least.  Now let's assume Lr6 is not.  Okay, I don't suppose there is anything MAKING us upgrade to Lr6 if that's the case correct?  Furthermore, anything we have done in Lr5 (or earlier) would not be an issue since we have Lr5 still. 

Cons

1.  We could miss out on some really useful processing tools as a result.  That being said, I have no issues with the processing tools in Lr4 PV2012 and in fact more is possible than I ever reasonably hoped for.  Net result for me, no big deal.  I'm quite sure I could keep processing images into the future with Lr5 and be reasonably satisfied.
2.  Support for newer cameras.. ahh, now THAT could be an issue, assuming Adobe stopped adding camera support for newer cameras.  In that case you could possibly be forced either jump on board the LrCC bandwagon, OR move to another processing tool from another vendor.
3.  Operating system upgrades.  Hmm, I suppose it's possible that Lr5 won't run on Windows 9.  Ok, but again, I'm quite satisfied with Windows 7 and frankly, photography is the only reason I tend to upgrade those things anyway.


Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on May 10, 2013, 04:07:54 pm
Quote
Probably would have been better, in a situation like that Tim, to shoot on a set WB - whether it was 'right' or not - that way you've got the same starting point for all images and it may be easier to tweak than with different starting points on all images.

It's not about right, Bob. It's about the nature of human perception in its relation to the tools the editor has to use to make it look the way they want. As I said picking any fixed or custom WB wasn't going to mitigate what this visual phenomenon does to the editing process.


Also this is not about my lack knowledge of digital image capture and processing. I know how to process images. I've done it on 3000 Raws and about 300 jpegs accumulated over 7 years. I'm confident I've developed a command of editing tools seeing I've been editing images since 1998 starting with PS4.


This was only an example to give an idea to the digital imaging support services industry of the amount of work involved for users of their systems and software where the more the users accumulate volumes of images the harder it is to keep upgrading from a logistics standpoint. Wedding photographers often shoot 3000 Raws in one event. I can't imagine what they have to go through in an upgrade both hardware and software.

This industry is suppose to be helping us reduce our work load not adding to it by constantly thinking we need newer features to do to images that we don't NEED to do.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 10, 2013, 04:18:30 pm
Of course I could constantly output flattened TIFFs as I go along as insurance against either a price increase or a sudden change in my circumstances.  But why should I have to go through such a grind constantly when it is reasonable to be permitted access to what I have already done?

That's asking to use the functionality provided by the software, after choosing to no longer pay to use the software :-)


It also doesn't answer the question about printing.

Presumably you would acquire some other software that allows you to print TIFF before you stop paying.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: jrp on May 10, 2013, 04:32:46 pm
... So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.

Thanks for this, which shows more empathy / insight into this segment of the market than any of the other material that the Adobe execs / customer advocates have put out.

I can see that from the boardroom Powerpoint presentation they might think that they have dealt with the the hobbyist photographer segment by keeping Lightroom and Photoshop Elements out of the cloud.   That will be a fair judgement for a significant proportion of photographers, even semi-professional ones.  For my part, as an amateur, I nevertheless use actions, Lab mode, and Photoshop's retouching features, eg, some of which pros would use (eg, retouchers) and some of which they won't (because they would be too time-consuming in a high volume commercial workflow).  I go back to old images in a way that someone doing weddings, or processing a shoot for a particular client would probably do much less.  I also don't have an income flow to match the proposed cloud expenditure flow.  

Yes, Adobe need to fund further development, but I have also invested time in learning the tool and, perhaps, even contributed to the ecosystem that makes the tool attractive to others, from which Adobe benefits.

I sometimes upgrade every release and sometimes not, depending on whether I value the new features on offer.  Under the proposed model, I don't really know what I am buying, other than what I already have.

The fundamental problem seems to be that someone like me wants to be able to stop paying without being put in a worse (but not necessarily better) position than if I continued to subscribe.  Unfortunately this is diametrically opposed to the desire of Adobe to have me as a perpetual income stream, which they have chosen to do by offering only terms that leave me without access to the tool that I have been using, if I do not continue to subscribe.  

What is needed is some sort of hire-purchase option that allows me to stick where I am, if I have subscribed for long enough to pay for what has been developed.  This is the position that I would be in if (as seems to be the best option at the moment) I stick with CS6.  If Adobe allowed that for future releases, for subscribers that had put in a year's worth of payments, say, then I for one would be happy.  The problem with the current model, from my perspective, is that I can't hire-purchase a future release; I can only enter into into an open-ended commitment, if I don't want to end up worse off at some point (ie, I can only hire it).  This makes me reluctant to invest more of my time and energy in the tool.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: kaelaria on May 10, 2013, 05:30:27 pm
  Okay, I don't suppose there is anything MAKING us upgrade to Lr6 if that's the case correct? 

Unless you actually want to buy a new camera in the future and have it supported by LR.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: John Cothron on May 10, 2013, 05:46:18 pm
Unless you actually want to buy a new camera in the future and have it supported by LR.

yes, that is one of the points I covered if you got that far in my post
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: shanly on May 10, 2013, 05:54:47 pm
That's asking to use the functionality provided by the software, after choosing to no longer pay to use the software :-)

What I'm asking for is (ironically) fairly similar to the situation with Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Reader.  I just want to read my files that contain changes that I paid to be able to do.  By all means, disable edits or any changes other than flattening layers (so I can read it with something else).  We need a PS Reader, and maybe an LR Reader (a rough analogy but it makes the point).
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: s4e on May 10, 2013, 06:12:11 pm
I have indeed been reading all of the threads here (and Michael's article from yesterday).  It is true that Thomas and I are not executives and therefore don't directly make business/pricing decisions.  This may not help the sentiment out there ... but here goes anyways: Thomas and I very much understand the concerns of photographers, especially the hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't need/want the full CC suite and just want to use Ps and/or Lr.  We know that there are lots of concerns about (1) price, both short-term and long-term, esp. for those who used to skip every other Ps version (upgrading on a relaxed schedule) (2) being "locked in" or "imprisoned" into an Adobe-only system, and (3) what happens should photographers choose to end their subscriptions (e.g., in terms of opening files, etc.).  This is actually easy for me to keep in mind, because before I joined Adobe as a developer I was a user and hobbyist photographer (still am).  So, while the two of us can't make any promises about how things will pan out, I can assure you that we are feeding these concerns directly to the executives at Adobe, including specific suggestions on how to make CC a much better situation for photographers.
Thank you Eric,

One option could be to make a pixel editor specific for working together with Lightroom and photographs. For each evolution of Lightroom you could reduce this editors functionallity...

I use 20% of Photoshop and can live without updating this application. Still I'm extremly unhappy because this action show what your company are able to do to their customers. If Adobe did something simmilar with LR the situation is very different because all my work and metadata is stored in the database...

Look forward to see the result of your internal discussions. We know you and Thomas are not responsible for this error from Adobe.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 10, 2013, 06:18:51 pm
I can see that from the boardroom Powerpoint presentation they might think that they have dealt with the the hobbyist photographer segment by keeping Lightroom and Photoshop Elements out of the cloud.   That will be a fair judgement for a significant proportion of photographers, even semi-professional ones.  For my part, as an amateur, I nevertheless use actions, Lab mode, and Photoshop's retouching features, eg, some of which pros would use (eg, retouchers) and some of which they won't (because they would be too time-consuming in a high volume commercial workflow).  I go back to old images in a way that someone doing weddings, or processing a shoot for a particular client would probably do much less.  I also don't have an income flow to match the proposed cloud expenditure flow.  

If you were to imagine an app that would be more than Elements, but less than Photoshop in terms of functionality, exactly what do you think it would need to have as a minimum feature set?

You mention Actions (or automation), Lab & retouching but you would presumably want 16 bit, channels, layers, selections, masks, paths, soft proofing, printing, a full range of color and tone correction (presumably as adjustment layers), Photoshop type filters like blur/sharpening, etc. You would need things like resize/resample, cropping & rotation, right?

So, leaving those items in as assumptions, what else in Photoshop could you live without?

Could you live without type?, Video? 3D? (I assume so). What about CMYK? What about History?, What about Bridge? (the reason I mention Bridge is presumably you would be using Lightroom for browsing and management). There would need to be some sort of brushing functionality, but I doubt you would be much besides simple brushes with softness/opacity and no brush effects, right?

Would you want the Blur gallery and Puppet warp? Liquify? What about editable keyboard shortcuts? (which was a huge engineering effort which is also why LR doesn't have it yet).

What about color management? LR's color management is simple but works well. But you would need to do color conversions, right?

So, what would be needed to create a Photoshop for Photographers that would be designed as a pixel editing companion to Lightroom?

I'm only playing blue sky dreaming here...but Eric has said that he and Thomas are interested in doing something on behalf of photographers (because they are both photographers to) and remember, Thomas was the guy who started this whole industry with his brother John...(even though when it started it wasn't really designed and intended for photographers per se).

So, it would be useful to get a list of must haves, nice to haves but not required and a list of shouldn't haves.

I'll start a new topic with this as a jump off point in a new thread with a couple of caveats...I will be on my best behavior but will tolerate zero ad hominem attacks...I think there needs to healthy debate and exchange of information without an anti-anthing slant. I would hope the tone could be such that Eric would feel comfortable engaging and provide useful feedback that could be taken back to Thomas and Adobe and even other 3rd party developers...

Thoughts?

So, if you have any thoughts, post them in the other thread (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78240.0) and lets keep the hard stuff out.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: rgg195 on May 10, 2013, 06:55:55 pm
A few other thoughts. It's probably not helpful to presume that people are "not thinking for themselves" just because they are deeply concerned about the direction Adobe, the company that they have invested their time and money in, is heading. In the a similar manner, end users like me, should not presume the people who made their livelihood from teaching and supporting Adobe products are not able to "think for themselves" and are just towing the company line.

As for all the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) out there now, I think the major source of it, to be fair, is based on the actions of Adobe, not the end users.

Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: RFPhotography on May 10, 2013, 07:01:12 pm
It's not about right, Bob. It's about the nature of human perception in its relation to the tools the editor has to use to make it look the way they want. As I said picking any fixed or custom WB wasn't going to mitigate what this visual phenomenon does to the editing process.


Also this is not about my lack knowledge of digital image capture and processing. I know how to process images. I've done it on 3000 Raws and about 300 jpegs accumulated over 7 years. I'm confident I've developed a command of editing tools seeing I've been editing images since 1998 starting with PS4.


This was only an example to give an idea to the digital imaging support services industry of the amount of work involved for users of their systems and software where the more the users accumulate volumes of images the harder it is to keep upgrading from a logistics standpoint. Wedding photographers often shoot 3000 Raws in one event. I can't imagine what they have to go through in an upgrade both hardware and software.

This industry is suppose to be helping us reduce our work load not adding to it by constantly thinking we need newer features to do to images that we don't NEED to do.

That's why I put 'right' in quotes, Tim.  Because it is a subjective matter.  And I'm not questioning your knowledge or skill.  Not at all. Just trying to add another perspective.

WRT hardware/software upgrades, I don't feel your pain.  Probably that's because I'm a Windows user rather than Mac.  There's some discussion in another thread about the Mac OS upgrade/software compatibility problems.  I've got several 10s of thousands of RAW files in my LR catalogue (approaching 100k at this point, and that's a small catalogue by some measures).  I've been through upgrades from LR2 to LR3 to LR4, Elements 2 to PS CS to CS3 to CS5 to CS6, an upgrade from WinXP to Win7 on one machine then a migration of everything to Win7 on a new machine.  My only issue was the switch from PV2010 to PV2012 and, initially, not fully appreciating the changes in the two process versions which, unlike the change from PV2003 to PV2010, meant I shouldn't automatically update older images to the new PV.  That's a user issue, not a hardware/software issue.  I don't think it's incumbent on software developers like Adobe to have to adjust their development process to the unreasonable demands of a company like Apple.  Apple doesn't play well with others in the sandbox.  That's well known. That lack of flexibility is just something that Apple users have to accept.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Pogo33 on May 10, 2013, 07:35:41 pm
Again, all I'm asking for (and Eric's post seemed to recognize this requirement) is access to what I've already paid to be able to do.  Don't lock me out from my existing work or impose a constant overhead on my workflow.

I have a hard time believing that the Senior Management at Adobe really comprehend the financial consequences of their decision. Let's take a really simple example. Today, I watched to promo video by Moose Peterson, a "photographer" on the new Wacom Cintiq 13HD 13.3" Interactive Pen Display (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jo6XYLZB3Lk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jo6XYLZB3Lk). This is a video demonstrating the ease with which a Photographer could use the tablet in ACR, import the image  into Photoshop and save it as a PSD file. LR was not used once. I suspect the specifics of the tablet are designed more around PS but assume that it could also be used in LR. I do, however, find it interesting that Moose used ACR and PS. Now I had to chuckle. How many photographers do you think will purchase this product in this climate given the focus on PS? Two weeks ago, I would have given the 13HD a serious look, even at almost $1,000.00 because I, like Moose could see the value of adding it to my carryon along with my MacBookPro our fall trip to Tuscany; not now. But more seriously, how many photographers are going to save their work as a PSD file? It is even more a legacy file than my old DCR files. At least there are other programs that I can access these files with.

So, like the person I quoted, it is all about ownership and the ability to continue to access our work without being held hostage.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: HSakols on May 10, 2013, 08:40:29 pm
The sky is certainly falling.   
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: HSakols on May 10, 2013, 08:48:33 pm
I think Adobe just needs to pause and visualize.  Maybe they should take a more Buddhist approach to the whole thing.   I wonder what Jerry would have said about this whole THING? Maybe Neil can enlighten all of us?  Sorry I know I'll regret this but I couldn't resist. Adobe wouldn't do this if we just went outside once in a while. Thomas Help!!!!
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 10, 2013, 08:53:18 pm
By all means, disable edits or any changes other than flattening layers (so I can read it with something else).  We need a PS Reader, and maybe an LR Reader (a rough analogy but it makes the point).

Depends on the detail of how LR is written, but a LR Reader might be quite awkward to do. Essentially it would be a new product, that had to be updated and kept in-sync with LR.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: RFPhotography on May 10, 2013, 09:53:22 pm
I have a hard time believing that the Senior Management at Adobe really comprehend the financial consequences of their decision. Let's take a really simple example. Today, I watched to promo video by Moose Peterson, a "photographer" on the new Wacom Cintiq 13HD 13.3" Interactive Pen Display (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jo6XYLZB3Lk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jo6XYLZB3Lk). This is a video demonstrating the ease with which a Photographer could use the tablet in ACR, import the image  into Photoshop and save it as a PSD file. LR was not used once. I suspect the specifics of the tablet are designed more around PS but assume that it could also be used in LR. I do, however, find it interesting that Moose used ACR and PS. Now I had to chuckle. How many photographers do you think will purchase this product in this climate given the focus on PS? Two weeks ago, I would have given the 13HD a serious look, even at almost $1,000.00 because I, like Moose could see the value of adding it to my carryon along with my MacBookPro our fall trip to Tuscany; not now. But more seriously, how many photographers are going to save their work as a PSD file? It is even more a legacy file than my old DCR files. At least there are other programs that I can access these files with.

So, like the person I quoted, it is all about ownership and the ability to continue to access our work without being held hostage.

You can't be serious.  You really don't think the Adobe execs considered or understood the impact of this change?

The tablet can be used with any application, not just PS or LR.  It's simply a screen extension with a touch interface.  I can do the exact same thing with an Android tablet and a free app.

Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: jrsforums on May 11, 2013, 09:21:24 am
And this contributes to the discussion how?

BTW, I'm now going to start reporting this sort of crap to the monitors (Mike and Chris) so that the overall tone of these debates are not ad hominem attacks but have some useful content to discuss. So, do you have anything useful to say? If not, shut up...

And yes, I should loose weight...that's done by exercising more and yes, eating less.

:~)

I also have to exercise more and eat less....and agree it is awful to criticize people like that (such as "pigs fly" in another thread, which was pointed at me...remember?)

I hope your reporting goes both ways.  I have notice more dialog and less attacking in this thread and others, such as 'What if Thomas decided...".  I think this is due to BOTH sides of the dialog maintaining dignified responses.  I laud your attempt to keep these dialogs civil...again, on both sides.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on May 13, 2013, 04:20:52 pm
That is one of the basic reasons you never rely on one company or software to manage your files, NEVER! You create "logical" hierarchy folders and you stick to that.
Lightroom doesn't really get in the way of you doing this, so it should be easy for those that didn't dump a bunch of images on a drive and rely on metadata alone.
(I can see applications being made now, that will read the metadata and start creating and moving files to folders to get you out of such a mess).

LR5 sounds like an enhancement upgrade which I will happily purchase when available for the reasonable price of $59-79.
I will use any tool that fits my use WITHOUT going cloud!
I'll go Gimp before I go cloud. I urge others to take this stance if you expect to have any say or control in how your applications work.

If you can move from Adobe, the sooner you do it the better!  DxO is an excellent Raw developer that I would have preferred if they supported PhaseOne and Leaf digital backs. They don't!
The big issue many people don't realize is that they DON'T need a DAM built into the raw developing part of a software as LR offers. In fact it is BETTER to keep them separate! ...the load and speed of the apps work, the engineering in how resources are used, and how they further develop the Library vs the Develop side. And in extreme cases like this....Where people slowly lose control of their files.
There are a number of image managers that do a great job; Photo Supreme/ID Imager,  ACDSee, Portfolio, Photo Mechanic, iMatch, etc Many others that may work just fine.
These specific applications are designed to manage and do more and continue what they do, MANAGE. You can read a bunch of my posts over the years regarding this topic.

The more you are in Adobe, the harder it will to remove yourself when the time comes...From the direction they are headed, it looks like they will take any measure to cut off their licensing agreements as a purchase, and lock you in to a monthly service that they will control and lower(as it is now), and raise prices as they please from feature or technology demands that come in the future. Enslaving you of how the software is used. That is why cloud service to begin with is a bad idea from many users standpoint over the long run.
I can surely see people doing the math now and saying "sure it makes sense" (months rental vs purchase). Wait til Adobe's coast is clear and they see that they can in 3 years change the plan and lock you in...Then all a sudden your Roll Over minutes will expire and you just lost the advantage of the service...oh shux!

I can see COREL making a come back with Adobe's CC move. I don't know of any other colleague or studio that welcomes cloud services. Coerl Paint is one I used over a decade back, It was very good, and had additional features at the time(nozzles).
(FYI, Corel even has a rather interesting Raw developer called AfterShot Pro).

Most people stay with Adobe, as it integrates with other Adobe apps that are often needed (PDF, Indesign, Illustrator, etc), At least I did.
I am glad I have somewhat current licenses of CorelSuite(13, 15?), as I see me switching to that as soon as my PS CS5 is no longer supported by my OS :-) I hope that is a long time to come.

I still on a daily basis need to use Capture One6 pro/7, ACDSee 6pro, Photoshop CS5. I also use LR4(soon 5) a great deal on my personal work, and even manage work files in LR (along with looking up files via ACDSee, as LR is too blind and stupid to let you "browse" or know when new files are in your folders; Major FAIL).

Having said these things....Surely, there are many things I still prefer LR for on the way it allows us to manipulate the images in Develop mode, There is no better and familiar(carry over from Photoshop) app that does this that I know of.... and even a few ease of use features on Metadata side and file export handling.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: mkfitz on May 13, 2013, 04:29:26 pm
I have not used PS for at least two years (believe it or not latest version of PS is CS).  I get along fine with LR and various plugins such as the Nik plugins.  I really like LR but if Adobe ever makes that supscription only it will be bye, bye Adobe.

I had been waiting for Adobe to develop iPad apps that can work with LR as they have PS.  I thinks it's great that they recently demoed a possible iPad app for LR.  However, it's a no sell for me if it's going to be tied into the cloud.  Not trying to see conspiracies where they don't exist, but is a good a way for Adobe to gradually pull LR users into the cloud and hook them with a subscription only model in the future.

Michael.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: werner from aurora on May 13, 2013, 05:02:01 pm
   Like everyone else, my reaction to Adobe has been equally frustrating. I use LR4, PS5 and was going to upgrade to PS6 and LR5. Now I just don't know. (it will take a while for the sour taste to get washed out) I love LR4, and don't really want to relearn another program.
 The interesting thing about all this is that I have really begun to think about the longevity of my files and how I save them. An issue that has always been on the back of my mind, but never really in the forefront.
   The irony of all this is in the end, maybe Adobe just did me a favour by slapping me with a wake up call. No matter which program I choose to use in the future the issue will always remain regarding proprietary files and readability. It has now become just as important as file manipulation.
  The world continues to evolve!
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Edhopkins on May 13, 2013, 05:57:20 pm
The comment: "I will use any tool that fits my use WITHOUT going cloud! " seems very misguided. I have heard this many times in this thread.

I could be am wrong about this but Adobe is not "going to the cloud".  You have been able to down load adobe products from the web (= the cloud) for years. Nothing is changing here at all. (You can't order the DVD sets any more, granted.) You will still be downloading your applications from the web. You will not be running cloud applications or anything like this. It will still be an application running on the machine sitting on your desk.

The change is only about the pricing: buying vs. subscribing.

(And I think the new CC applications will have some nice cloud/web storage aspects in certain cases.)

The Cloud thing is nothing; it is about the pricing model.

Or have I missed something.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Steve House on May 13, 2013, 10:36:52 pm
The comment: "I will use any tool that fits my use WITHOUT going cloud! " seems very misguided. I have heard this many times in this thread.

I could be am wrong about this but Adobe is not "going to the cloud".  You have been able to down load adobe products from the web (= the cloud) for years. Nothing is changing here at all. (You can't order the DVD sets any more, granted.) You will still be downloading your applications from the web. You will not be running cloud applications or anything like this. It will still be an application running on the machine sitting on your desk.

The change is only about the pricing: buying vs. subscribing.

(And I think the new CC applications will have some nice cloud/web storage aspects in certain cases.)

The Cloud thing is nothing; it is about the pricing model.

Or have I missed something.
Exactly!  With the subscription we have the option of using Cloud based file storage if we wish to take advantage of it, but there's no compulsion to do so and you can keep your files locally if you choose.  The difference is that instead of paying a large fee and going through a validation every time we upgrade, now we pay a smaller fee and validate every month or quarter.  But the applications still reside on the local computer just as they always have and function just as they always did.  The biggest change from a user standpoint is it now appears we'll have to upgrade when every new version is released rather than having the option of hanging on to the older version until we choose to move to a later version.  How much of a problem that might present operationally remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Rand47 on May 13, 2013, 11:00:23 pm
Quote
The change is only about the pricing: buying vs. subscribing.

Yes, this information clarity has been helpful.  If a "photographers's bundle" of PS & LR CC is offered at an attractive (mangaeable) price, I'd have no problem at all.  It was "cloud dependency" that troubled me most, and that's not an issue.

"Cloud" seems to be one of those buzz-terms w/o any real descriptive power & much muddled mix of meaning across the digital landscape.   

Rand
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Robert Katz on May 13, 2013, 11:43:42 pm
I think it is possible that there will not be any 'new versions" as we have come to be accustomed to over the years.
As new features are developed for each of the programs there will be an opportunity to download/upgrade your programs.
For example I have had Photoshop CS6 for a while and there have been no updates.  I joined the subscription service tonight and lo
and behold there were updates to Photoshop that I accessed.
Robert
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: James R on May 14, 2013, 03:24:21 am
Yes, this information clarity has been helpful.  If a "photographers's bundle" of PS & LR CC is offered at an attractive (mangaeable) price, I'd have no problem at all.  It was "cloud dependency" that troubled me most, and that's not an issue.

"Cloud" seems to be one of those buzz-terms w/o any real descriptive power & much muddled mix of meaning across the digital landscape.   

Rand

I agree.  Change is always difficult and causes a variety of reactions.  Personally, I think the cloud will be the future for all large software firms, including Apple's software folks.  It makes economic sense, which makes for better products. 
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: PeterF on May 14, 2013, 09:56:55 am
Eric, why the over charging for Ps? See my post : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78311.0

How did the price reduction for LR4 work out for Adobe? More or fewer sales?

If Ps were charged for a +/- 30% premium over and above what Adobe are asking for it from what Adobe says is the majority of its customers (which if you see my post is actually $7.14 a month) the price for the stand alone Ps subscription would be $10.

If Adobe were asking $10 a month I think there would be a warm reception, and that, for a 30% increase in the profit for Ps from a standard subscription.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Philip Weber on May 14, 2013, 07:57:46 pm
I wouldn't care if Photoshop by itself cost $20-30 a month...as long as meaningful improvements kept happening and I could opt out and keep what I had up to that point, even if it meant committing to a year at a time to do so.

Ending the subscription and falling back to CS6 is a total deal breaker for me.

Phil
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Schewe on May 14, 2013, 08:02:24 pm
Eric, why the over charging for Ps?

What Eric are you asking? Eric Chan?

He couldn't possibly answer something like this...it's way, WAY above his pay grade...

The engineers don't set prices nor policies.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on May 14, 2013, 08:07:55 pm
Well I'm glad you read my post fully Ed :-)
And you're right the word cloud I used in a bit in a fuzzy context and can be wrong in some aspects, yet right in others......
You explained it well, although it doesn't change the end result.


I could be am wrong about this but Adobe is not "going to the cloud".  You have been able to down load adobe products from the web (= the cloud) for years. Nothing is changing here at all. (You can't order the DVD sets any more, granted.) You will still be downloading your applications from the web. You will not be running cloud applications or anything like this. It will still be an application running on the machine sitting on your desk.

The change is only about the pricing: buying vs. subscribing.

(And I think the new CC applications will have some nice cloud/web storage aspects in certain cases.)

The Cloud thing is nothing; it is about the pricing model.

Or have I missed something.

EdHopkins

What you're missing is that the end result is the same.........We will end up renting the software vs owning a time free license to use it. That at least financially is under the cloud approach of providing a service.

What your picking out at is one side of a mix in vocabulary as there is some overlap. Yes downloading from Adobe I have been doing for some time and using the apps on the desktop. Yes Adobe has some apps that are cloud based, and yes Adobe is moving in the direction of subscription service instead of licensing the software regardless of where it resides.

Let's say we purchased 12 months of Photoshop. We downloaded it to the computer, the app now makes a constant connection via web to monitor your usage including how you use the application in some cases... all in the name of providing you with better service.  So after 12 months if you don't resubscribe for more time the application can lock itself out.

Call it cloud with the app residing on the desktop,, or subscription based, either way it is a big problem for those that don't upgrade every time one is made available.
I am on CS5, and I think I can use it for at least a year or 2 , or more. 

Corel Paint is a great alternative to Photoshop, when the time comes, I too will look for alternate methods besides subscribing to a service.

Quote
It makes economic sense, which makes for better products. 
Really? How do you define better? Why wouldn't the next move as much as possible NOT be full cloud usage? Only limited to large file size or bandwidth is the reason Adobe hasn't been able to force that.

Yes Rand, the word cloud is a buzz word, and it can mean more than one thing. For example, I can say I store my backup images on a "cloud" server. You may think I have some company servicing this, yet the server is a NAS placed in a relatives building and it's controlled by me. This is still cloud. VS you paying a company to backup your info, or use a application that is "web access based" or a application that has a frame work on the desktop with much of the function requests going over the web to a company mainframe, etc.

Quote
The difference is that instead of paying a large fee and going through a validation every time we upgrade, now we pay a smaller fee and validate every month or quarter.  But the applications still reside on the local computer just as they always have and function just as they always did.  The biggest change from a user standpoint is it now appears we'll have to upgrade when every new version is released rather than having the option of hanging on to the older version until we choose to move to a later version.  How much of a problem that might present operationally remains to be seen.
_EdHopkins

It isn't a large fee we pay EVERYTIME for license upgrades. It is an upgrade to the one time large fee we paid. Every 3-4 or more years $200 for Photoshop isn't that bad. I have always been able to skip an upgrade or 2. And yes the licensing thing is annoying. Imagine you don't have internet connection some ISP outage. Does this create another layer of complexity to get to work with your app? I think so.  Besides it makes you use the app until you feel the NEED to do the update.
I use InDesign every other week, and I use Acrobat Pro every so often.  I am running fine on CS InDesign from many years ago, my Acrobat eis v8 from years ago. The main app I update is Photoshop and that too is CS5 which I use daily.
With subscription, you WILL need to be current EVERYTIME you want to use the app.

Philip Weber brings up a good point in the what if situation (A likely one at that). If you stop the service in say 4 or 5 years as you see something shift in what you do or any other reason. Do you end up with going back to what you had 4 or 5 years ago?  OUCH!!!
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Rhossydd on May 15, 2013, 01:55:12 am
The Cloud thing is nothing; it is about the pricing model.

Or have I missed something.
Yes, you have missed something.
One of the key sales features of the CC is it's global integration and common portal across all subscribers.
This won't matter to individuals that don't work commercially for other clients, but if you were, say, a product photographer or graphic designer, the simplicity of sharing work fast and easily to many client teams via a common interface may become the de facto way of delivering your output.
It's this particular mode of working that's driving Adobe's cloud based model.
If it takes off as they hope, it will be a massive financial success for Adobe and their commercial customers, but us lot snapping away aren't at all important in that picture.

So leave them to it and move on. What's needed soon is an escape route.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: RFPhotography on May 15, 2013, 07:13:12 am

Or have I missed something.

What you've missed is the fact that if you stop subscribing, you lose all access to the software.  You don't get to keep using at the point of development you have at the time.

I think a lot of people would be happier if they could stop subscribing and keep the software in that state without further upgrades.  The problem is then the same as they have with CS6 - no more updates to ACR for new cameras.  What that idea also fails to consider is that, depending on how long they subscribe, they may not have truly 'paid' for the software when they stop subscribing. The extended version of PS is ~$1000.  If a new customer subscribes for 1 year at $20/month, they've only paid $240.  If they wanted to stop subscribing and keep the software at that point, they should have to pay a 'buyout' fee to make up the difference.  The amount of the buyout fee would vary depending on how long you've been buying.  A long time customer who paid the full price initially and has been paying for version upgrades may have no buyout fee, for example.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 15, 2013, 12:43:55 pm
And yes the licensing thing is annoying. Imagine you don't have internet connection some ISP outage.

Once more, Adobe Creative Cloud FAQ (http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html) --

Quote
You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days.  However, you'll be able to use products for 3 months (99 days) even if you're offline.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 15, 2013, 12:59:54 pm
If Adobe were asking $10 a month I think there would be a warm reception, and that, for a 30% increase in the profit for Ps from a standard subscription.

The price shown for Creative Cloud "Single app" (https://creative.adobe.com/plans?plan=single) is $19.99/mo for "annual commitment", $29.99/mo for "Cancel at any time" and $9.99/mo for "Requires CS3+ purchase".

I don't know what Adobe Systems Inc mean by "Requires CS3+ purchase" and I don't know how long that $9.99/mo pricing would continue.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: Isaac on May 15, 2013, 01:00:34 pm
Quote
Rows and flows of angel hair
And ice cream castles in the air
And feather canyons everywhere
I've looked at clouds that way

But now they only block the sun
They rain and snow on everyone
So many things I would have done
But clouds got in my way
I've looked at clouds from both sides now

From up and down, and still somehow
It's cloud illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all
...

Both Sides Now (http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=83)
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: jwstl on May 15, 2013, 02:56:58 pm
The price shown for Creative Cloud "Single app" (https://creative.adobe.com/plans?plan=single) is $19.99/mo for "annual commitment", $29.99/mo for "Cancel at any time" and $9.99/mo for "Requires CS3+ purchase".

I don't know what Adobe Systems Inc mean by "Requires CS3+ purchase" and I don't know how long that $9.99/mo pricing would continue.

It menas those who already own CS3 or higher pay only 9.99 a month for the first year.
Title: Re: Moving on from Adobe, need some final Lightroom advice.
Post by: DeanChriss on May 15, 2013, 03:44:56 pm

Both Sides Now (http://jonimitchell.com/music/song.cfm?id=83)

Thank you, Isaac. Your post is the first thing related to this fiasco that has made me laugh. It's amazing that lyrics written in 1967, long before personal computers or the Internet, are so accurate in this context!