Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 10:48:18 AM

Title: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 10:48:18 AM
I got a laugh out of this one!

http://youtu.be/bqnS9MpOlr8 (http://youtu.be/bqnS9MpOlr8)

I watched this video hoping to see the wifi working as it is a really interesting feature, but you don't actually see it in action,
but the video is a real laugh.

The discription is a good start:
Quote
Watch how the Phase One IQ2 camera system and Capture Pilot reconnects landscape photographer Joe Cornish
with his traditional working methods as a large format photographer.

The part about being able to see the image upside down to see if the composition is good.....

Also pretending that you can actually see something useful on an ipad out in direct light.....

Not to mention very limited battery life in cold temperatures, as well as the thing just packing up till it's warmed up again.

I think the only real analogy with using an 8x10 and an ipad/MFDB is that you need to go under a black cape to see the image
usefully.

Even in the video that is partly overcast you can barely see the image on the ipad.

You've got to love these marketing videos.... ;)

His pictures are beautiful though...
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 14, 2013, 01:16:47 PM
I don't know about getting out more - maybe I need to too (neat!), but as for turning the thing upside down... Heysoos! that was the biggest pain in the ass I ever experienced with the various 4x5 cameras that it had been my misfortune to have to deal with in my employee days! What a pile of bollocks! On the other hand, if one can claim that one's brain is hampered by such conditioning, and that one can no longer see a picture the right way up, evaluate its intrinsic charm, potency and beauty, then it's time for the funny farm. BUT, if anyone can convince anyone else out there that that's a good thing, the new best thing in fact, then God help the photographers who buy into such nonsense.

It's yet another example of the fable of the little fox (foxlet? cublet?) that got its tail cut off; it wanted all the other little foxes to get theirs cut off too. I believe that the little fox had no luck convincing any of them. But this is photography... it's open season all year round.

Finally finished turning my cassettes into mp3 files. Also discovered one or two cassettes were kaput. Perhaps I shall have to listen to them whilst I spin; not such a brilliant concept when driving. Well, it's Sunday, what did you expect?

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 02:17:43 PM
Hey, you really need to get out more.

Actually I do get out.... shoot on location quite a lot and know perfectly well that you can't use an iPad effectively to view images straight or upside down
without a black tent.

I know a thing or two about reviewing images on location as I do get out and shoot this sort of stuff at the beach....
It's very important to be able to review images well with the model especially if partial nudity is part of the shoot.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8102/8648459681_2765e05cde_m.jpg)

Actually I take on location image review very seriously and choose to use a tablet PC so that I can use Lightroom to auto process and review images
with a preview of the final look.

In the real world this is what you get 90% of the time.... and this is with the Slate that is a bit brighter than the iPad.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8543/8649500370_4d165ba7e2_n.jpg)

and this is what the sky looked like when I shot the tablet.....

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8390/8649548268_b9974c2498_n.jpg)

So you can imagine with a bit of sunlight....
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 14, 2013, 04:02:58 PM
LOL.

You're the best Fred.

Nitpicking advertising for not being an objective documentary is like the line in Casablanca "I'm shocked to discover there is gambling going on in this establishment".

Would you believe that in those commercials for gum that the girl isn't actually spontaneously kissing the boy?? Those lying bastards.

As a side note, I know that for *some* photographers viewing the image upside down, or squinting, is a useful tool for evaluating the composition and play of dark vs. light in abstraction from the details of the subject itself. But if that holds no truth for you then you're of course welcome to place the value of such a tool at zero for your needs/style; just don't assume your truth is universal.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: AreBee on April 14, 2013, 05:02:29 PM
Fred,

Quote from: FredBGG
...the video is a real laugh. The part about being able to see the image upside down to see if the composition is good...

Joe Cornish has for decades composed in this way. Do you consider that it has limited his ability to produce strong compositions, or that his compositions would have been stronger had he been able to compose 'normally'?

Quote from: FredBGG
Not to mention very limited battery life in cold temperatures, as well as the thing just packing up till it's warmed up again.

In cold climes it is good practice to keep a camera battery near to the photographer's body when not in use, and insert it into the camera only when preparing to shoot. If this practice is adopted, battery life will not be limited.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 14, 2013, 05:24:18 PM
Fred, thanks for pointing out a critique of the iPad, which was something the original iPad, 5 years ago, also had.  I believe that Amazon and B&N marketed their devices with a matte screen, to make it more attractive in sunlight than the iPad.  

Insofar as looking at an image upside down, it can be quite interesting how different you view it.  As I mentioned in another thread, you would be amazed at how different and less symmetrical a person's faces looks when you look at the picture upside down.  As far as composing this way, not that big a deal, you get use to it.  I spent 5 years on a 4x5 exclusively and it never bothered me (after getting use to it of course).  About a month ago I bought a MF system (from a dealer) with a sliding back after 5 years on a couple different Canon systems.  (Yes, I will give it to you that live view sucks, but that is my feeling in DSLRs too which is why I got a sliding back.)  The one thing I was a little hesitant about was having to look at the image upside again and wondered how long it would take me to get use to it.  About 5 minutes to fall back into it; I was out all day yesterday with the camera and I can not remember once thinking about the fact that the image was upside down and backwards.  

However, I wish I would of thought about sun screen lotion.   :D
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 06:05:41 PM
LOL.

You're the best Fred.

Nitpicking advertising for not being an objective documentary is like the line in Casablanca "I'm shocked to discover there is gambling going on in this establishment".

Would you believe that in those commercials for gum that the girl isn't actually spontaneously kissing the boy?? Those lying bastards.

As a side note, I know that for *some* photographers viewing the image upside down, or squinting, is a useful tool for evaluating the composition and play of dark vs. light in abstraction from the details of the subject itself. But if that holds no truth for you then you're of course welcome to place the value of such a tool at zero for your needs/style; just don't assume your truth is universal.

Your comparison to toungue in cheek commercials and these supposed informational videos does not hold up.

Doug stop trying to make this about some stupid universal truth. The video clearly trys to make things seem rosier than they are and it's probably in the edit....

Two gochas here. First is an iPad goes dead in no time in cold weather.
Second you practically can't see anything on the iPad screen when on daytime open sky location, even if it's overcast.

As far as seeing things upside down on an 8x10... I have shot 8x10 for years, including fashion and beauty. I was also sponsored with free 8x10 polaroid
so I shot more than one would expect with that costly media. Composing upside down is never a pleasure whick is why they make these things:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lXy2AuASL._SY300_.jpg).

iPad in BS promo world:

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6169/6212085013_d0eef700a4_z.jpg)

In the real world
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6051/6212704664_4a4698452f_z.jpg)

Trying to look at this magazine online:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6099/6212189627_651b2de8ce_z.jpg)


You can even see the shitty chroma key apple did  ;D

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6060/6212598626_90f2fc6eec_b.jpg)
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 14, 2013, 06:27:04 PM
Fred, I must ask you, if you are against the iPad because of the well known glare it produces in sun light, why were you so interested in asking questions about how well the "Phase back to iPad" worked?  You seemed genuinely interested in learning how this worked.

Was you intention to make us think maybe Fred has an interest in this thing after all only to completely shot it down afterwards? 

Or maybe you were hoping it worked very poorly, which it does not, and now you need to bash another company that has nothing to do with camera technology just to try and make a point?
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 06:28:24 PM
Fred,

Joe Cornish has for decades composed in this way. Do you consider that it has limited his ability to produce strong compositions, or that his compositions would have been stronger had he been able to compose 'normally'?

In cold climes it is good practice to keep a camera battery near to the photographer's body when not in use, and insert it into the camera only when preparing to shoot. If this practice is adopted, battery life will not be limited.

Anyone with half a brain will tell you that it's easier to compose the image when it's not upside down. I shot for years on 8x10 and I can assure you that composint upside down does not have any advantages..... unless your subject needs to be exhibited upside down.

As far as keeping your battery going in cold weather... yes you can keep it under your coat, but when you need to use it the battery that is very large and really thin
right up against the back cover of the tablet it will go to hell remarkably quickly.
Apart from that hiking with a tablet under your coat is far from practical.
Probably better to have an external battery pack like the Mophie Juice Pack Powerstation External Battery.

You'll also want touch screen compatible gloves. iPad won't work with regular gloves... the guy in thr video is using tipless gloves...

http://www.macworld.com/article/1156543/touchscreen_gloves_review.html (http://www.macworld.com/article/1156543/touchscreen_gloves_review.html)

This WiFi functionality and tablet image review with the IQ2 and DSLRs is very useful, but it's not always the lovely experience they make it out to be.

What would be nice is a case/loup finder for high defenition small tablets like the iPad mini.
I saw something custom make for a DP. A broadcast monitor with a black hood like a giant loup with a black goggle thing.
Once you put your eyes into it all other light is locked out. Looked huge when looking through it.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 06:31:34 PM
Fred, I must ask you, if you are against the iPad because of the well known glare it produces in sun light, why were you so interested in asking questions about how well the "Phase back to iPad" worked?  You seemed genuinely interested in learning how this worked.

Was you intention to make us think maybe Fred has an interest in this thing after all only to completely shot it down afterwards? 

Or maybe you were hoping it worked very poorly, which it does not, and now you need to bash another company that has nothing to do with camera technology just to try and make a point?

Having used tablets on location I came up with a solution that is a hood with the eyepiece of an 8x10 toyo reflex finder on it.
I'm talking to a photo accessory company about making something like this ... like a big ass collapsible waist level finder.

Regarding your last comment that's uncalled for as I have written here more than once that the WiFi implementation by phase
is one of the niftyest and smartest things they have done in quite a while.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 14, 2013, 06:48:20 PM
Maybe it was out of line, but why are pointing out a critique that has nothing to do with Phase One's products?

I realize that iPads glare, but the vast majority of tablets in the world are iPads.  To be quite honest, I would much rather have a matte screen.  It annoys me that I have to special order my computers with a matte screen.  But I know no one who uses a tablet that is not an iPad.  It is extremely advantageous for Phase to make the system work with the iPad regardless of its short comings.  As a matter of fact, this goes for any one making a app for a tablet, period.  

And why are you so concerned about cold weather.  Are you not in Cali, where it is 90 and beautiful all of the time.    ;)
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 14, 2013, 07:05:57 PM
Maybe it was out of line, but why are pointing out a critique that has nothing to do with Phase One's products?

I realize that iPads glare, but the vast majority of tablets in the world are iPads.  To be quite honest, I would much rather have a matte screen.  It annoys me that I have to special order my computers with a matte screen.  But I know no one who uses a tablet that is not an iPad.  It is extremely advantageous for Phase to make the system work with the iPad regardless of its short comings.  As a matter of fact, this goes for any one making a app for a tablet, period.  

And why are you so concerned about cold weather.  Are you not in Cali, where it is 90 and beautiful all of the time.    ;)

 ;D

But it does have something to do with Phase products... Phase chose the ipad as the tablet to use (right choice as it's popular and common in the ad world)
and the software is by Phase... not to mention the video saying how lovely it is when in reality it's very limited on location as a viewing system.
half the time I'm outdoors shooting I can't even see the screen my phone well enough to make a call without fussing around a bit.

What we need is a nice folding viwfinder for the iPad 8)
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: amsp on April 14, 2013, 08:37:03 PM
http://www.portabrace.com/products/computers/554-ipad-carrying-case-sun-visor
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Alan Klein on April 14, 2013, 11:05:37 PM
Is it normal to snap  an expensive Phase 1 onto a tripod right over cold running stream water, or would it be smarter to clip it on before you get to the stream? He did it a couple of times and all I could think of it was it going "plop" into the stream.  Maybe a hand lanyard would be helpful?
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 15, 2013, 12:09:13 AM
Hi,

I think battery life on the iPad is an issue but I can see it is quite useful. There is a product called Cam Ranger that works with Canon and Nikon, would it support Sony I would have ordered it already.

The video shows plenty of glare although shut under overcast conditions.

Regarding shooting under awkward conditions it is one of the areas live view on an articulated screen shines.

Best regards
Erik


I got a laugh out of this one!

http://youtu.be/bqnS9MpOlr8 (http://youtu.be/bqnS9MpOlr8)

I watched this video hoping to see the wifi working as it is a really interesting feature, but you don't actually see it in action,
but the video is a real laugh.

The discription is a good start:
The part about being able to see the image upside down to see if the composition is good.....

Also pretending that you can actually see something useful on an ipad out in direct light.....

Not to mention very limited battery life in cold temperatures, as well as the thing just packing up till it's warmed up again.

I think the only real analogy with using an 8x10 and an ipad/MFDB is that you need to go under a black cape to see the image
usefully.

Even in the video that is partly overcast you can barely see the image on the ipad.

You've got to love these marketing videos.... ;)

His pictures are beautiful though...
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 15, 2013, 01:21:18 AM
http://www.portabrace.com/products/computers/554-ipad-carrying-case-sun-visor

Doesn't really help. Just helps you see your reflection on the glosy screen better ;)

The problem is overall brighness of the environment. To see the screen well you just need to block out the daylight.
It's kind of like trying to use a 4x5 ground glass without a cape or a Hasselblad 500 without the folding hood just looking down at the screen.

The real problem is that an iPad puts out about 400 nits at full brightness. By daylight viewable broadscat monitors this is nothing.
There are monitors out there with 1500 Nits and more.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Wayne Fox on April 15, 2013, 01:26:11 AM
As a side note, I know that for *some* photographers viewing the image upside down, or squinting, is a useful tool for evaluating the composition and play of dark vs. light in abstraction from the details of the subject itself.

Do it all the time, and teach my students as well.  Just rotate the thing 180 in lightroom where suddenly you don't see elements anymore but see shapes, patterns, colors, textures, lines ... all kinds of cool things.  Even drop it to black and white sometime while doing it.  Have changed my composition many times after doing this, and in the case of one image, actually decided it was better upside down.  Happen to be a shot straight up in a slot canyon so there was no real top or bottom, but it looked better after flipping it.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: HarperPhotos on April 15, 2013, 01:45:48 AM
Hello,

I spent 25 years looking at images upside down and back to front on my Sinar P2 and it was never a problem with me or my assistant of 12 years. We just got so used to it that it became the norm.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: torger on April 15, 2013, 04:26:26 AM
I respect Joe Cornish as a photographer so call it laughable would be over the line for me. I agree with all the things he say in the video and think it's true, in the future composing on a large screen live view is probably going to be "it" for tech cams.

However, I'm also not particularly impressed by Apple reliability outdoors, so showing it out in those conditions is a bit daring to say the least. On the other hand it's not a critical component (and it costs nothing in MF terms) so if it fails you can still continue to shoot.

If Phase One was a bit more serious about letting landscape photographers have this tool in the field they would make it compatible with Android too so it would be a wider choice of tablets, but I think they are more into the cool factor in the pro studio, and then throwing an iPad to the client is better than an Android, since Apple still has the lead in being fashionable electronics.

However everyone knows the limitations of the iPad so I don't think it's a big issue it being shown in this video.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 15, 2013, 04:30:27 AM
Hi,

Yes, but you folks in New Zealand even walk up an down:-)

Best regards
Erik

Hello,

I spent 25 years looking at images upside down and back to front on my Sinar P2 and it was never a problem with me or my assistant of 12 years. We just got so used to it that it became the norm.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 15, 2013, 04:34:09 AM
Jeez, this is turning into a forum of closed minds.

Because some of us - self included - worked with upside down images because we had to, seems to be no reason to pretend that we would choose to so do had we the choice of either on the same camera.

Take a peep at Albert Watson on location: one of the world's best snappers, and he delights in using a converting device to get life at the ground glass back to as near normal as possible...

I realised some time ago (aren't I quick!) that some here delight in taking a poke at FredBGG regardless of whatever he writes. It seems to me that there have been so many burned fingertips (or it that wallets?) that the whole MFD subject has become rather painful and anyone who brings it up in a less than positively confirming way has to be kicked into silence. Some would say, that's bullying; writing about a system failure is not.

Insofar as screens in daylight are concerned, when I first got my Samsung Galaxy Ace I thought it had broken;: the friggin' screen was black in the Mallorcan sunlight. Only when I went back indoors to make the call I couldn't make outside did I realise that the screen was perfectly functional (within its severe limitations), and that daylight is simply too bright for the system. I have seen any number of spoiled brats running around café patios here, banging these larger, confounded 'pads or tablets into people or onto tables - almost as bad as those with bloody plastic footballs! What are these idiotic parents thinking about? Buying love instead of giving it? Why does a nine-year-old need such a device?

As for taking pictures with my cellphone - I miss shots because I can't see the limits of the frame as often as I hit them. As you can imagine, this island crawls with tourists, and I see my own difficulty repeated time after time: folks stand there, arms stretched, squinting. And the irony? They probably think it's their fault they chop heads or feet... you can sell anything. Obviously.

Thank God my kids grew up in a reasonable era.

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: eronald on April 15, 2013, 06:19:18 AM
Pixel Qi make very nice sunlight-readable screens (http://pixelqi.com/).
Don't expect them on a phone or on a camera though, that would be innovation.

Edmund
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: torger on April 15, 2013, 06:53:46 AM
Pixel Qi make very nice sunlight-readable screens (http://pixelqi.com/).
Don't expect them on a phone or on a camera though, that would be innovation.

I think the problem with those, at least earlier, was that they are quite slow, i e good for reading books, but unusable for watching video (or live view), and perhaps frustrating for scrolling around on a image preview? I'm not sure what the current status of these screens are though.

Edit: good for video, but goes black and white in bright sunshine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ZErQ5Kl6w (look at 10:50)

The "Toughlet" http://toughlet.com/ (found via http://pixelqi.com/devices ) looks like it could be something for the field-working landscape photographer. But then the IQ260 WiFi gotta get support for Android... I doubt Apple will ever make anything hardened in tablet space (okay I confess, I like to bash Apple products).
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: AreBee on April 15, 2013, 07:53:31 AM
Fred,

You didn't address my question.

Quote from: FredBGG
Anyone with half a brain will tell you that it's easier to compose the image when it's not upside down. I shot for years on 8x10 and I can assure you that composint upside down does not have any advantages.....

There is no need to assure me. If composing inverted and reversed does not help you then more power to you. However, your opinion, unfortunately presented as fact, patently is not shared by others, Joe Cornish likely being one.

Quote from: FredBGG
As far as keeping your battery going in cold weather... yes you can keep it under your coat, but when you need to use it the battery that is very large and really thin right up against the back cover of the tablet it will go to hell remarkably quickly.

We apparently referred to different batteries: you to the iPad and I to the camera. No matter.

Quote from: FredBGG
... the guy in thr video is using tipless gloves...

What is wrong with tipless gloves?

Quote from: FredBGG
This WiFi functionality and tablet image review with the IQ2 and DSLRs is very useful, but it's not always the lovely experience they make it out to be.

It's a marketing video. What did you expect? :) Joe Cornish did not claim image review by tablet to always be a "lovely experience".

Quote from: FredBGG
What would be nice is a case/loup finder for high defenition small tablets like the iPad mini...Once you put your eyes into it all other light is locked out. Looked huge when looking through it.

Loupes that block extraneous light and make the view appear very large to the eye have been around for years. They can be used against the LCD of a digital back. An iPad is not required to review landscape images critically.

With respect to your post in which you provide images of a female viewing an iPad, your proof can be dismissed out of hand because the camera does not share the same view as the female.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 15, 2013, 09:41:11 AM
No, it's turned into a forum of Nikon and Canon aficionados.

I'm starting to wonder if either can sensibly exist. I used to swear by Nikon and now find myself just as likely to swear at Nikon. Canon I never fancied, so can't comment.

In a tiny nutshell, I think all these new cameras/novelties are flying on wings and prayers, the makers hanging on to stay just ahead of the punters. I imagine that one fine day the mass of shooters is going to wake up and think: hey, my pics are perfectly okay as is; why should I spend more? Even if it is deductible, there comes a time when dumping something that might actually be working well is a risk too far.

In the case of the current reviewer with an elastic wallet, there may yet turn out to be a Lysistrata factor rearing its delightful head. Someone has to take a stand. My sympathy would lie with the lady.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 15, 2013, 12:00:50 PM
The danger with this wireless stuff if you shoot in the north are solar eruptions...
high energy particules...
Very bad for electronics...
wireless connection lost...
repair service...
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: LKaven on April 15, 2013, 12:58:11 PM
LOL.

You're the best Fred.

Nitpicking advertising for not being an objective documentary is like the line in Casablanca "I'm shocked to discover there is gambling going on in this establishment".

Would you believe that in those commercials for gum that the girl isn't actually spontaneously kissing the boy?? Those lying bastards.

The claims in your own marketing materials are serious business.  You aren't selling gum.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: TMARK on April 15, 2013, 01:42:26 PM
I like FredBGG's posts. He is very enthusiastic and shares his experience and some of the finest images posted in this forum. In recent times I tend to share only snippy remarks.

His point that an upside down or mirrored image is bad for compositing I can't support. I always liked to see the real image with my eye (one eye closed) and a mirrored or upside down image in the camera to have a control.

Sorry Fred but in this case Leonardo da Vinci made the point. A long time ago he wrote:
"When you are painting you should take a flat mirror and often look at your work within it, and it will then be seen in reverse, and will appear to be by the hand of some other master, and you will be better able to judge of its faults than in any other way."

Anyway, I like your posts Fred, don't stop.

Best,
Johannes

I used to take off my glasses and look blurry eyed at the set, just for light and form.  Sarah Moon does this as well.



Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 15, 2013, 02:22:02 PM
The claims in your own marketing materials are serious business.  You aren't selling gum.

Fair point, but advertising is advertising. Whether for a stick of gum, a car, or an airplane.

We spend a lot of our time encouraging/accompanying/enabling our customers to evaluate equipment by their own hands on testing in situations as close to their real-world use as possible. If you watch an ad for a Porche deftly handling tight corners they are referencing a very real advantage of the car, but they probably won't go out of their way to mention that it requires a good driver, and preferably clean dry roads to handle at maximum performance. You'd want to take a test drive, and drive it like you like to drive, and see how it handles technically and how it feels in practice. Fred's post is the equivalent of quibbling that Porche doesn't spent time in every advertisement discussing environmental factors which keep you from hitting doing a hair-pin turn on a wet dirty road.

I don't expect (nor would I want) any customer to make a 40k purchase based only on looking at advertisements.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 15, 2013, 02:29:42 PM
Hi Doug,

Porsche is not what comes in my mind looking at the IQ series. More like a Hummer, the question  is, it is the original, the H2 or the H3?

Best regards
Erik



Fair point, but advertising is advertising. Whether for a stick of gum, a car, or an airplane.

We spend a lot of our time encouraging/accompanying/enabling our customers to evaluate equipment by their own hands on testing in situations as close to their real-world use as possible. If you watch an ad for a Porche deftly handling tight corners they are referencing a very real advantage of the car, but they probably won't go out of their way to mention that it requires a good driver, and preferably clean dry roads to handle at maximum performance. You'd want to take a test drive, and drive it like you like to drive, and see how it handles technically and how it feels in practice. Fred's post is the equivalent of quibbling that Porche doesn't spent time in every advertisement discussing environmental factors which keep you from hitting doing a hair-pin turn on a wet dirty road.

I don't expect (nor would I want) any customer to make a 40k purchase based only on looking at advertisements.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 15, 2013, 02:32:08 PM
Hi Doug,

Porsche is not what comes in my mind looking at the IQ series. More like a Hummer, the question  is, it is the original, the H2 or the H3?

Best regards
Erik

 ;D

Phase One IQ Hummer Special Edition
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: timparkin on April 15, 2013, 03:36:09 PM
All I can say is that it was me doing the video and from what I saw the device worked fine. Perhaps it won't in some conditions but it did in these. Is it perfect? No. Would it be better with holding your coat around it occasinally? yes. Is it potentially useful? yes..

As for batteries - I get as long a life out of the ipad as I do out of my iPhone. Both crap but then I wouldn't leave the iPad on all the time if I was using it to review shots and if I was using it 'professionally' I'd have an external battery to top it up when I wasn't using it.

So, if you want to take lots of pictures in cold weather and bright sunshine then you'd best carry a spare battery and a dark cloth :-)

Looking at pictures upside down? I know a lot of people who swear by it and some who don't. Being able to see the picture upside down and the right way round lets you do it either way so I don't see a problem?

Tim
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 15, 2013, 03:55:10 PM
I like FredBGG's posts. He is very enthusiastic and shares his experience and some of the finest images posted in this forum. In recent times I tend to share only snippy remarks.

His point that an upside down or mirrored image is bad for compositing I can't support. I always liked to see the real image with my eye (one eye closed) and a mirrored or upside down image in the camera to have a control.

Sorry Fred but in this case Leonardo da Vinci made the point. A long time ago he wrote:
"When you are painting you should take a flat mirror and often look at your work within it, and it will then be seen in reverse, and will appear to be by the hand of some other master, and you will be better able to judge of its faults than in any other way."

Anyway, I like your posts Fred, don't stop.

Best,
Johannes

I agree with Leonardo Da Vinci. Looking at an image framed in a mirror and reversed. It does several things.
It frames the composition and puts it on a different focus plane thus simulating a framed painting.
By reversing the image (mirror image) not upside down it gives the image a sort of detachment from the scene in front of the painter.
Leonardo never suggested flipping things upside down... something I'm sure he could have figured out.
I also saw a sketch of a viewing method he used with two mirror to frame the image, but not reverse it.
My office was just up the street from his museum in Milan and across the street from the Last Super.

Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 15, 2013, 04:17:12 PM
I agree with Leonardo Da Vinci. Looking at an image framed in a mirror and reversed. It does several things.
It frames the composition and puts it on a different focus plane thus simulating a framed painting.
By reversing the image (mirror image) not upside down it gives the image a sort of detachment from the scene in front of the painter.
Leonardo never suggested flipping things upside down... something I'm sure he could have figured out.
I also saw a sketch of a viewing method he used with two mirror to frame the image, but not reverse it.
My office was just up the street from his museum in Milan and across the street from the Last Super.



Which just goes to show that even experts sometimes pick the wrong tools/medium...

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Ken R on April 15, 2013, 04:41:45 PM
Fred, I think PhaseOne should hire you.

If a back passes your scrutiny before going to market then its gonna be a huge hit.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Alan Klein on April 15, 2013, 07:54:37 PM
Quote
...Work for hours at a time on a painting and it's likely you will be seeing what it is you want to see rather than what is actually there. The main benefit of viewing an image in a mirror is to achieve a sense of detachment.  Viewing the image reversed snaps you back to reality. It can be quite shocking but is a very useful technique. It's a similar experience to working all day on a painting and then viewing afresh the next morning; often a humbling experience...

This raises an interesting point.  Does anyone reverse or flip their photo in PS to do something similar?
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 15, 2013, 08:28:43 PM
This raises an interesting point.  Does anyone reverse or flip their photo in PS to do something similar?

When shooting for editorial I will often finalize a left and right page option.
I also like to check photos flipped (mirror image) just in case they are used that way.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 16, 2013, 03:57:17 AM
This raises an interesting point.  Does anyone reverse or flip their photo in PS to do something similar?


I used to use a Rollei TLR for some years. One thing I discovered was that pictures do not always translate well if reversed. That doesn't mean they are bad, simply that the dynamic flows contra-instinctively and effs the idea. There wasn't a problem with shots of a model in the middle of a paper background, but only sometimes where the whole area contributed to the sense of the picture.

Shots that do switch quite well are silhouettes.

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: gerald.d on April 18, 2013, 11:27:58 PM
I hope Phase One do work on an Android version.

Google Glass would nail pretty much iPad related challenge mentioned here.

In fact, I wonder how long it will be before someone comes out with software to use Glass as an EVF for a remote camera? Camera control on the phone, EVF and review on Glass.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Marlyn on April 19, 2013, 12:58:53 AM
I got a laugh out of this one!

http://youtu.be/bqnS9MpOlr8 (http://youtu.be/bqnS9MpOlr8)

I watched this video hoping to see the wifi working as it is a really interesting feature, but you don't actually see it in action,
but the video is a real laugh.

The discription is a good start:
The part about being able to see the image upside down to see if the composition is good.....

Also pretending that you can actually see something useful on an ipad out in direct light.....

Not to mention very limited battery life in cold temperatures, as well as the thing just packing up till it's warmed up again.

I think the only real analogy with using an 8x10 and an ipad/MFDB is that you need to go under a black cape to see the image
usefully.

Even in the video that is partly overcast you can barely see the image on the ipad.

You've got to love these marketing videos.... ;)

His pictures are beautiful though...


Troll post  #931.

Don't feed the beast.


Time to use the other forums for MF photography discussion that aren't drowning in this continuous stream of verbal diarrhea from the OP.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 19, 2013, 03:21:23 AM

Troll post  #931.

Don't feed the beast.


Time to use the other forums for MF photography discussion that aren't drowning in this continuous stream of verbal diarrhea from the OP.


I know it's all a load of crap, but why do the US crap-specialists write diarrhea where the civilized world has it as diarrhoea? I understand it's only a little oh, but these things make a big difference, as anyone once inflicted with the problem will readily understand.

I had imagined that the use of ancient Latin/Greek was supposed to eliminate confusion, but I suppose that confusion between said condition and gastric flue is too esoteric to admit investigation, never mind the misuse of the dead(ish) lingos.

What a quandry for me to face so early in the morning; I think I shall reconfigure my daily schedule: get up in the evening and go to bed at mid-day. I could become an astro-photographic-specialist or even a stalker of locked cemeteries. But at any rate, I would then be able to face LuLa on a full stomach!

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 19, 2013, 06:40:18 AM

I know it's all a load of crap, but why do the US crap-specialists write diarrhea where the civilized world has it as diarrhoea? I understand it's only a little oh, but these things make a big difference, as anyone once inflicted with the problem will readily understand.

I had imagined that the use of ancient Latin/Greek was supposed to eliminate confusion, but I suppose that confusion between said condition and gastric flue is too esoteric to admit investigation, never mind the misuse of the dead(ish) lingos.

What a quandry for me to face so early in the morning; I think I shall reconfigure my daily schedule: get up in the evening and go to bed at mid-day. I could become an astro-photographic-specialist or even a stalker of locked cemeteries. But at any rate, I would then be able to face LuLa on a full stomach!

Rob C

One is correct in British English and the other is correct in American English.  So, both are correct in English.  Ass you well know, there are many differences in both...butt, we can all get along on this topic.  Or, to make things more simple, we could use the term that is commonly used in some rural areas in the Southern United States (Mississippi for example):  "The back-door trots".  This can mean that the inflicted person has to trot for the back door to go to the outhouse, or that you are "running" out your own "back door".  Or, you can shorten it down to simply "the runs".  There also is "the squirts".

The German word for this condition is "Durchfall"  which means literally "to fall through".  I think it describes the situation pretty well too.

I would contribute more to this thread, but I have to run.  ;D
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: MrSmith on April 19, 2013, 07:14:20 AM
One is correct in British English and the other is correct in American English.  So, both are correct in English. 

No. Only one is correct in English, any other parochial affectation/deviation is not proper English and merely an abuse of borrowed language.   ;D
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 19, 2013, 07:35:27 AM
No. Only one is correct in English, any other parochial affectation/deviation is not proper English and merely an abuse of borrowed language.   ;D

You have it all wrong!  American English is a modern, improved, and updated version of British English.  ;D

http://www.online-literature.com/donne/3276/  is a piece that Mark Twain wrote explaining the differences.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 19, 2013, 08:59:47 AM
You have it all wrong!  American English is a modern, improved, and updated version of British English.  ;D

http://www.online-literature.com/donne/3276/  is a piece that Mark Twain wrote explaining the differences.




With respect, what would he have known?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 19, 2013, 09:12:40 AM



With respect, what would he have known?

;-)

Rob C

Actually, quite a lot at the time.  Twain lived in Europe for many years.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 19, 2013, 01:17:56 PM
We all have Webster to thank for this difference in the two types of English.  Shortly after the Revolutionary War (or the War for American Independence, as you Brits call it) Daniel Webster felt for us to be truly free from England's rule, we needed to create our own language.  Knowing that it would be impossible for us to completely change languages, he removed a lot of the "useless" letters in the spelling of words, for instance the "u" in colour to make into color.  He also reversed the french influence of "re" to "er," like theatre to theater.  There are also a bunch of little things too, like replacing "i" sounding Ys to Is (tyre becomes tire). 

Most people of the time thought Webster as being nuts, but he was very good at selling his idea to schools and libraries.  So a generation later American English took hold. 
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: MrSmith on April 19, 2013, 01:36:23 PM
Actually, quite a lot at the time.  Twain lived in Europe for many years.

And his opinion on proper English and Americanised English is no longer relevant, it's more a historical comment on the English class system of that time.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 19, 2013, 02:38:02 PM
Actually, quite a lot at the time.  Twain lived in Europe for many years.


I've lived in Spain for 32... I wouldn't even dream of thinking myself that au fait with the idiom even though I can battle along most of the time. As a 'foreigner' you always miss things. Hell, the Brits find one another difficult and there aren't even real geographical borders.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 19, 2013, 02:55:21 PM
We all have Webster to thank for this difference in the two types of English.  Shortly after the Revolutionary War (or the War for American Independence, as you Brits call it) Daniel Webster felt for us to be truly free from England's rule, we needed to create our own language.  Knowing that it would be impossible for us to completely change languages, he removed a lot of the "useless" letters in the spelling of words, for instance the "u" in colour to make into color.  He also reversed the french influence of "re" to "er," like theatre to theater.  There are also a bunch of little things too, like replacing "i" sounding Ys to Is (tyre becomes tire). 

Most people of the time thought Webster as being nuts, but he was very good at selling his idea to schools and libraries.  So a generation later American English took hold. 


I didn’t know that. How sad, though, to feel obliged to destroy a language in order to mark a feeling of self. On the other hand, perhaps he just couldn’t spell, either. But if he could, then another fine, if early example of the transatlantic genius in marketing. You don’t need the product, but it sure makes you feel good when others buy it!

Perhaps the vandalism was all to do with legacy: our own dear Mr Blair still searches for his… a few years after office and hardly anybody remembers him.

I look upon the Cajuns with a new respect! Not only did they bring us good swamp pop rock, they survived language fascism!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 19, 2013, 05:01:46 PM
And his opinion on proper English and Americanised English is no longer relevant, it's more a historical comment on the English class system of that time.


Proper English?  There is not a version of English named proper English.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: MrSmith on April 19, 2013, 05:18:23 PM
There is if you are English, it's a common English phrase.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Gigi on April 19, 2013, 08:00:20 PM
nice to know the common is proper in Merry England.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: EricWHiss on April 20, 2013, 01:40:32 PM
a hah!   ;D

So glad this thread could eventually find a way to fit its title.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 21, 2013, 05:17:38 PM
Time to use the other forums for MF photography discussion that aren't drowning in this continuous stream of verbal diarrhea from the OP.

When did typed out text become verbal?

Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ondebanks on April 21, 2013, 07:05:42 PM
How sad, though, to feel obliged to destroy a language in order to mark a feeling of self.

I think that the deliberate marginalisation and destruction of indigenous languages by colonisers (like the English) was a far greater sin than any tweaking of the colonisers' language by the colonised people.

You may be saddened by Webster's reformulation of American-English spelling...I am more saddened that by 1900, almost no-one in Ireland could speak Irish (Gaelic)...the culmination of a process of cultural and economic attrition which began with the Plantations and the Penal Laws imposed from London in the 17th century.

When you think about it - "to destroy a language in order to mark a feeling of self" - was that not exactly what the British authorities were repeatedly doing as well, as they built their "empire on which the sun never sets"? Linguistic hegemony was central to their sense of imperial self-justification. If one could get the wogs, fuzzy-wuzzies, chinks, pakis, abos, micks and coons to speak the King's/Queen's English, instead of their own barbaric tongue, one was just doing them a favour, right?

Not blaming you Rob, or any other present-day British people, for any of this of course...it's ancient history and attitudes are completely different now. It just needs to be remembered.

And now, back to photography!

Ray
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 22, 2013, 04:38:17 AM
I think that the deliberate marginalisation and destruction of indigenous languages by colonisers (like the English) was a far greater sin than any tweaking of the colonisers' language by the colonised people.

You may be saddened by Webster's reformulation of American-English spelling...I am more saddened that by 1900, almost no-one in Ireland could speak Irish (Gaelic)...the culmination of a process of cultural and economic attrition which began with the Plantations and the Penal Laws imposed from London in the 17th century.

When you think about it - "to destroy a language in order to mark a feeling of self" - was that not exactly what the British authorities were repeatedly doing as well, as they built their "empire on which the sun never sets"? Linguistic hegemony was central to their sense of imperial self-justification. If one could get the wogs, fuzzy-wuzzies, chinks, pakis, abos, micks and coons to speak the King's/Queen's English, instead of their own barbaric tongue, one was just doing them a favour, right?

Not blaming you Rob, or any other present-day British people, for any of this of course...it's ancient history and attitudes are completely different now. It just needs to be remembered.

And now, back to photography!

Ray

Ah, empire.

Well, it’s impossible to come to any single conclusion about empire other than to remark that every single one fades away.

But, on the practicalities, if you are going to have one, then a single, common denominator of language is essential if there is to be understanding. It’s worth noting that in India (Pakistan didn’t exist until 1947) the main language that aids higher employment and foreign business is still English; nobody expects the world to become fluent in Tamil, Urdu, Hind, Telegu nor any of the other hundreds of local idioms.

So yes, in a sense, the legacy of English language, not to mention English education and Law has been invaluable to the newly independent countries, providing a base from which they can exist and even, with luck, grow within this brave new world they all have to face. Those that have turned inwards - well, look at what was Rhodesia, N&S, for one.

Gaelic? I have lived in Scotland about half my life, and I never yet ran into anyone speaking that language for real. Some rural ‘tourist’ towns have introduced the double-naming of streets in order to add to the tourist ‘oferta’ as they would say in Spain, but for many/most (I haven’t counted) it is a stupid business that raises local council expense and achieves nothing. Kilts? Are you joking? They are the national joke except at some weddings. There are even local TV stations that employ, were set up to provide, this expensive isolationist doctrine. The same splinter mentality lies behind much of the political problems of Spain. There was a period a year or so ago, here on Mallorca, where non-Catalan speaking doctors from the mainland of Spain were unable to hold employoment unless they were able to abandon the national language of Castilian and actually work using Catalan! Is that madness, or what? If I get another heart attack I hope the medical staff speak medical, not some prescribed version of localised Spanish, especially as they all speak the national tongue anyway.

Some of the Welsh, as with the Irish and Scots have the same problem of seeking an ‘identity’ different or separate from the national; why? None of that serves to do anything but isolate in a world that, in reality, needs closer integration and common understanding not only of language but of hopes and religion if it is to survive.

From where I stand, any language that becomes the only language is no bad thing. Speech is supposed to be about communication: when we can all communicate with one another without confusion, then we will be that tiny step closer to avoiding trouble. Struggle with a foreign language may amuse on holiday, not so when you live there. Then, it’s more about closed doors than loving thy neighbour in a golden glow of imaginary, sunny beach bliss.

But as for destroying a language that is already spoken and perfectly understood, as Mr Webster apparently felt obliged to do, that is another thing altogether and has more to do with ego than rationality.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: MrSmith on April 22, 2013, 05:22:44 AM
"Not blaming you Rob, or any other present-day British people, for any of this of course...it's ancient history and attitudes are completely different now. It just needs to be remembered"

what also needs to be remembered is the Dutch, Belgian, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese (plus others) empire building too, theres no point having a selective memory when looking back at history.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ondebanks on April 22, 2013, 06:11:23 AM
"Not blaming you Rob, or any other present-day British people, for any of this of course...it's ancient history and attitudes are completely different now. It just needs to be remembered"

what also needs to be remembered is the Dutch, Belgian, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese (plus others) empire building too, theres no point having a selective memory when looking back at history.

Absolutely. I just gave one example - "colonisers (like the English)". And why single them out? - well we had been talking about post-colonial USA, so staying with that example made the most sense.

Ray
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ondebanks on April 22, 2013, 06:52:22 AM
So yes, in a sense, the legacy of English language, not to mention English education and Law has been invaluable to the newly independent countries, providing a base from which they can exist and even, with luck, grow within this brave new world they all have to face. Those that have turned inwards - well, look at what was Rhodesia, N&S, for one.

This troubles me because you are in a sense still applying that retrospective justification of empire - "we left them a legacy - our language and systems - which improved their lives". This overlooks what systems were in place before the empire took over. Irish Brehon Law (look it up) (http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/3CBAE4FE856E917B80256DF800494ED9) is widely regarded as the most fair and socially progressive legal system to be found anywhere in Europe through the dark ages and the medieval times. Tragically, that went out with the imposition of English legal structures.

Gaelic? I have lived in Scotland about half my life, and I never yet ran into anyone speaking that language for real. Some rural ‘tourist’ towns have introduced the double-naming of streets in order to add to the tourist ‘oferta’ as they would say in Spain, but for many/most (I haven’t counted) it is a stupid business that raises local council expense and achieves nothing. Kilts? Are you joking? They are the national joke except at some weddings. There are even local TV stations that employ, were set up to provide, this expensive isolationist doctrine. The same splinter mentality lies behind much of the political problems of Spain. There was a period a year or so ago, here on Mallorca, where non-Catalan speaking doctors from the mainland of Spain were unable to hold employoment unless they were able to abandon the national language of Castilian and actually work using Catalan! Is that madness, or what? If I get another heart attack I hope the medical staff speak medical, not some prescribed version of localised Spanish, especially as they all speak the national tongue anyway.

I entirely agree with you on the sometimes ludicrous, sometimes prejudicial, and often costly ways that authorities adopt to revive and maintain marginal languages. Well intentioned but ultimately very stupid things have been done in Ireland post-independence, too. My view is that a language is like opera - you cannot make people like it, or use it if they don't want to. Like all cultural appreciations, it has to be voluntarily fostered and spread out of natural enthusiasm, pride and joy. My sense is that the Welsh have done a far better job in this regard that we Irish have.

Some of the Welsh, as with the Irish and Scots have the same problem of seeking an ‘identity’ different or separate from the national; why? None of that serves to do anything but isolate in a world that, in reality, needs closer integration and common understanding not only of language but of hopes and religion if it is to survive.

Hmmm...you realise that you have cogently argued that everyone in the EU, including the UK, should speak German (as the most widely spoken native tongue in Europe) and convert to Catholicism (as the most widely practised religion in Europe)! Why should the English have an ‘identity’ different or separate from the rest?

I bet that proposition would go down a treat in the shires...!

Maybe if you put yourself in the shoes of a minority within a greater system, you will understand why they their distinct ‘identity’ matters to them. The recurrent English political crises about "Europe" illustrate this.

But as for destroying a language that is already spoken and perfectly understood, as Mr Webster apparently felt obliged to do, that is another thing altogether and has more to do with ego than rationality.

Maybe so. I'm not taking sides on Mr. Webster either way.

Ray
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 22, 2013, 12:02:35 PM
Hmmm...you realise that you have cogently argued that everyone in the EU, including the UK, should speak German (as the most widely spoken native tongue in Europe) and convert to Catholicism (as the most widely practised religion in Europe)! Why should the English have an ‘identity’ different or separate from the rest?

Maybe if you put yourself in the shoes of a minority within a greater system, you will understand why they their distinct ‘identity’ matters to them. The recurrent English political crises about "Europe" illustrate this.

Ray


1. German, Italian, English, French... as long as we all eventually understand it, I wouldn’t be concerned very much. Regarding religion, it hardly counts anywhere in Europe these days beyond the symbolic; the RC church makes its biggest strides in South America and wherever poverty exists.

However, part of the problem is that none of the languages native to present Italy, France or Spain were universal in those territories: they were mainly independent, warring states and principalities that came together to form countries through conquest, and a dominant language thus established. Granted many shared versions of the ‘romance’ tongue, but a lot of those dialects were/are totally indescipherable to folks outwith the region. Perhaps no more than twenty-five years ago, the local Mallorquin dialect of Catalan, as spoken in Pollensa, was somewhat different to that in Sa Pobla, a little town but about eight klicks away; that little town now is under siege with north Africans and I bet that in another twenty-five years, the proportionate use of Spanish will be greatly diminished.

2. But I am in a minority. As a British national in Mallorca that’s my position. I do not seek out other Brits as a matter of course because, frankly, we have little in common worth sharing: I can’t drink anymore, I gave up smoking in ’66 and, being a photographer my sense of values is light years removed from that of most of them.

The latter point already served as a wedge, a spacer between myself and a lot of neighbours even back in the days when I lived in Scotland. My work, travels and ambitions were alien to pretty much all of them; my wife was subjected to the boring repeat question of how she felt with her husband working alongside young, pretty women whenever he worked, and photo trips abroad were always going to be the prelude to a divorce. It never happened; we loved each other but that didn’t seem to count. She would turn the question round, and ask whether the ladies posing it were worried about their husband’s secretary with whom he shared all of every working day... I suspect that’s the lot of many of us who ‘dare to be different’ for whatever reason: we never really fit too well into the general scheme of things.

Whew! I managed to return this to photography!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 22, 2013, 12:45:51 PM
I am for English becoming the common language.  First, it sounds much nicer than most languages; maybe French has us, but compared to Italian, German, Dutch (God help us if Dutch ever became the language of choice), etc.  And this is not just my opinion, but that of many second English language speakers.  Second, aside from being tied with Russian, English has almost three times as many words as any other language.  There is much more depth in English (and Russian, however if you feel Russian should be the language of choice, refer back to my first point). 

 :D
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Wayne Fox on April 22, 2013, 01:04:29 PM
This has to be the record for the most off topic I have seen a thread go.  Time to move it over the coffee corner maybe?
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 22, 2013, 01:31:24 PM
This has to be the record for the most off topic I have seen a thread go.  Time to move it over the coffee corner maybe?


Might that not suggest it has a Turkish element yet untapped?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 22, 2013, 01:39:06 PM
This has to be the record for the most off topic I have seen a thread go.  Time to move it over the coffee corner maybe?

Can you really consider it off topic when it started so far outside of the realm of useful discussion?

If anything a discussion of linguistic anthropology is more relevant to photographers producing photography than the nonsense the thread was started to discuss.

My opinion: a language belongs to those who use it the most and do the most with it. Can Portugal really be considered the center of gravity in the Portugese universe when there are more Portugese speakers of and greater commerce transacted in Portugese in the country of Brazil than in Portugal?
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Wayne Fox on April 23, 2013, 01:25:00 AM
Can you really consider it off topic when it started so far outside of the realm of useful discussion?

point taken ...
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 23, 2013, 03:36:35 AM
Can you really consider it off topic when it started so far outside of the realm of useful discussion?

If anything a discussion of linguistic anthropology is more relevant to photographers producing photography than the nonsense the thread was started to discuss.

My opinion: a language belongs to those who use it the most and do the most with it. Can Portugal really be considered the center of gravity in the Portugese universe when there are more Portugese speakers of and greater commerce transacted in Portugese in the country of Brazil than in Portugal?




God help the HQ of any multi-national corporation, then.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: FredBGG on April 23, 2013, 05:18:49 AM
I am for English becoming the common language.  First, it sounds much nicer than most languages; maybe French has us, but compared to Italian, German, Dutch (God help us if Dutch ever became the language of choice), etc.  And this is not just my opinion, but that of many second English language speakers.  Second, aside from being tied with Russian, English has almost three times as many words as any other language.  There is much more depth in English (and Russian, however if you feel Russian should be the language of choice, refer back to my first point).  

 :D

English sounds nicer than other languages?

Hmmm My native language is English but I am fluent in Italian, French and Spanish.

Have you heard President Bush or his lap dog Anthony Blair.

Personally I find Italian, (it's amny colorful dialects), French and Spanish to be far more interesting colorful and remarkably beautiful.

I also find that they have words that are sipmply non existant in English.

Find me an English work for diripmetaio. The word for a neighbor that lives across the street, but right infront of your house.

English does have many words, but many are just another more or less snobbish ways of saying the same thing as a more commonly used word.
It's not like the English language can express notions that other languages cannot.

Italian dialects are simply facinating with very different ways of saying things in relation to their local culture and history.

I owned a country house in a town where a knife was described as a sgullotta and across the river it was described as a cultiello.
A chair, segiolla and cadregha.

Then the really funny thing is spelling. Spelling in English and American English is to say the least disgusting. Only in America do they make a big deal about the Spelling Bee. A dumb ass competition to see who can remember all the stupid irregular ways English words are spelled becasue some have drunk dimwhiited aristoctrat spelled it that way first.

An interesting thing is I have no problem at all translating things from English into Italian, however so many times there just isn't a way to say certain things that are sai in Spannish of Italian in English.

I think that the rather presuptuous assumption that English is the uber language leads to so many problems fro a political and cultural standpoint.

Another huge difference I have found is how language is used.

For example in Italy a greeting is only a question if time is going to be given for a response.
Other wise it's a friendly Ciao.

None of this walking right past you and blurting out how r you doin' ? ... and be gone before you can reply.

It also seems that despite the alleged abundance of English works it seems that 16 year old american girls
have to use the work 'like' , 'amazing' and 'awsome' like they were on sale at walmart. ;)

And then there's one of my pet peeves. Using completely worng words because it makes you cool or apear to be and expert.

Like glass instead of lens when taking about photographic lenses.

Anyway time to brush up on that Spanish as it my soon be the main language here in the USA.

A language really shows it's beauty in how it is and can be used.

The final movement of Pergolesi's Sabat Mater for example shows how emotional Latin Mediterranean languages can be in a way that a cold language like English just can't.

http://youtu.be/mNt13Vw-K6Q (http://youtu.be/mNt13Vw-K6Q) This is the first movement.

  
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ondebanks on April 23, 2013, 05:43:56 AM
Of the languages I am familiar with, I think that Italian is easily the nicest on the ear. I travel to the Bologna region annually so I speak a little Italian. I admire the precision of the diction, the efficiency of the spelling (not a syllable nor a letter is wasted), the consistency of the grammar (virtually no 'exceptions' to the rules, whereas English is riddled with them), and the musicality of the expression.

Ray
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: AreBee on April 23, 2013, 08:01:37 AM
Quote from: Rob C
Gaelic? I have lived in Scotland about half my life, and I never yet ran into anyone speaking that language for real.

Then you need to explore the country more, for Gaelic is spoken as a first language in parts of it.

Quote from: Rob C
Kilts? Are you joking? They are the national joke except at some weddings.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, a multitude of people from around the world would disagree strongly with it, of which I am one.

The kilt enjoys extrordinary popularity around the world. It is instantly recognisable as a symbol for Scotland and I highly doubt that the majority of those who see it consider it a "national joke".

The kilt is considered by many to be the smartest form of formal dress there is. Some people not born or domiciled in Scotland consider its appearance so highly that they elect to wear it at their wedding, an odd compliment to pay for a "national joke".

Quote from: Rob C
Some of the Welsh, as with the Irish and Scots have the same problem of seeking an ‘identity’ different or separate from the national; why? None of that serves to do anything but isolate in a world that, in reality, needs closer integration and common understanding not only of language but of hopes and religion if it is to survive.

Which "national" identity do you refer to?
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: artobest on April 23, 2013, 08:18:27 AM

From where I stand, any language that becomes the only language is no bad thing. Speech is supposed to be about communication: when we can all communicate with one another without confusion, then we will be that tiny step closer to avoiding trouble.


Language is how we see, describe and make sense of the world. Each time a language dies, a unique worldview dies with it.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 23, 2013, 09:31:58 AM
Language is how we see, describe and make sense of the world. Each time a language dies, a unique worldview dies with it.


Really? The same view can be expressed in any language. Because some phrases are impossible to word in exactly and literally the same manner in alternative languages does not imply that the sense is not communicated perfectly accurately. Esperanto was a good shot at it, at least for the Latin-based language groups. Could have made a promising start...

Rob C
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: MrSmith on April 23, 2013, 10:56:33 AM
"Like glass instead of lens when taking about photographic lenses"

So it's not just me then. I can't stand the use of this word it's an Americanism that seems to have spread with the Internet. It's nearly as annoying as bokeh.
Thankfully nobody has tried to use it in shops/rental or an assistant here in the U.K. Yet....
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Martin Ranger on April 23, 2013, 12:07:42 PM

Really? The same view can be expressed in any language.

I am not so sure about this. Having spent almost half my life in Germany and the other half in the US, I find there are phrases that are virtually impossible to translate accurately. Sure, you can communicate the same general idea in both languages, but you will be missing a nuance or detail that is in my opinion impossible to convey in the "wrong" language, in some instances because no perfect equivalent exists in others because of common cultural connotations which are hard or impossible to translate. And German and English are two closely related languages belonging to people with very similar cultures, so I would imagine it to be even more of a problem with languages and cultures that are less related.
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: ondebanks on April 23, 2013, 06:53:01 PM
Beemer is also the standard slang for a BMW in Ireland. And Merc (pronounced Merk) for a Mercedes-Benz, Jag for a Jaguar, Rolls for a Rolls-Royce. It only seems to be the luxury brands that get these nicknames. But sorry, Lexus - you're just called Lexus!

Ray
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Martin Ranger on April 23, 2013, 07:41:27 PM

We in germany like to create our own english sounding vocabulary, we call a video projector a "beamer".

Don't even get me started on this  :) I will never be able to call a mobile phone "handy".
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 24, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
Hi Everyone,

what can I do to drive this discussion more off-topic than it already is? Perhaps I can start with a quote from one of my favorite films of all times:

Michele Monet: "Do you speak french?"
Hrundi V. Bakshi: "Enough to bring myself into trouble."

Or a small story: A few years ago I was invited to give a talk about photography at a canadian university. I was asked beforehand what I would need to give the talk. I replied, I only need a beamer because I will bring my laptop. – Silence on the other side of the phone line. Then the reply in a strange tone. I can get you a Volkswagen from a friend, but not a beamer. I replied, I don't need a car, just a beamer. After some back an forth it turned out:
We in germany like to create our own english sounding vocabulary, we call a video projector a "beamer". And some canadians call their BMW cars "beamer" (same word different meaning). So the canadian guy thought this crazy german wants a BMW to drive to the university.
 
Is this already off topic enough?

Language is not made that we understand each other, it is only there to fill the silence.

You all know "The Situation Is Hopeless, But Not Serious: The Pursuit of Unhappiness", 1983, by Paul Watzlawick. Don't you?

Best ;-)

Johannes

At least they did not give you "ein Gift" when you arrived.  :D
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 24, 2013, 12:41:33 AM
Don't even get me started on this  :) I will never be able to call a mobile phone "handy".

But a mobile/cell phone is indeed handy, isn't it?   ;)
Title: Re: This is quite amusing..
Post by: Rob C on April 24, 2013, 04:37:32 AM
Beemer is also the standard slang for a BMW in Ireland. And Merc (pronounced Merk) for a Mercedes-Benz, Jag for a Jaguar, Rolls for a Rolls-Royce. It only seems to be the luxury brands that get these nicknames. But sorry, Lexus - you're just called Lexus!

Ray


In India, a Merc was the hip (for young boys) name for a Mercury, as in Ford.

I enjoy these 'debates'; at least nobody tries to frame rules for their application.

Rob C