Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 05:06:18 pm

Title: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 05:06:18 pm
Hi guys, wondering if you could help me a little please....

I am looking at entering the MF Digital world. I currently shot with a 5DMkII (in occasion) but mainly shoot the 6x17 Tranny Film format.

I have stumbled across a Mamiya 645 DF with a Aptus II 6 (28mp) back for what looks like a pretty decent price.

My concerns are crop factor of 1.3 (i believe) and what i have had read is that it cant really do much over ISO 200.

I shoot mainly landscape images and am wondering if this combination will suit.
With slide film i get approx 4-5 Stops (which i dont mind, its a charesteristic of slide), never using a MF Digital setup i am wondering if it will be a steep learing curve and if the claims of 12 stops of dynamic range is actually true.

If the 5dmkii produces raw files that are approx 20mb and it is a 14bit system with a 5-6 stop DR, i would have thought a 16bit 12 stop sysrtem would yield files at least 80-100mb, however it seems it produces files in the range of 40mb (for this back anyway).

THanks in advance for your advice and assitance.

Cheers

Andrew
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 05, 2013, 05:33:20 pm
Hi,

File size is MP * bits/pixel / 8. So 28 MP at 16 bit would be 56 MByte, Could be smaller with smart encoding. The 5DII is a 14 bit system and has probably nearly the same DR as the Aptus II but DR does not affect file size. Quite possible that the Aptus has an advantage in DR but the six step advantage is myth. Two stops quite possible, at lowest ISO.

Just think about it, would the Aptus have an advantage of 6 stops in DR, than you could underexpose six stops and still have the same image quality as the Canon 5DII at 100 ISO. Would the MF camera have a 6 stop advantage it would work very well at 6400 ISO.

If you want to have a realistic view on MF backs you can read this article, it is interesting and well illustrated: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/photography/noise-test.html

That said, if the back you acquire is in good shape, you will probably find pleasure in using it and can have good results. But if you expect miracles you may be expecting to much.

Best regards
Erik



Hi guys, wondering if you could help me a little please....

I am looking at entering the MF Digital world. I currently shot with a 5DMkII (in occasion) but mainly shoot the 6x17 Tranny Film format.

I have stumbled across a Mamiya 645 DF with a Aptus II 6 (28mp) back for what looks like a pretty decent price.

My concerns are crop factor of 1.3 (i believe) and what i have had read is that it cant really do much over ISO 200.

I shoot mainly landscape images and am wondering if this combination will suit.
With slide film i get approx 4-5 Stops (which i dont mind, its a charesteristic of slide), never using a MF Digital setup i am wondering if it will be a steep learing curve and if the claims of 12 stops of dynamic range is actually true.

If the 5dmkii produces raw files that are approx 20mb and it is a 14bit system with a 5-6 stop DR, i would have thought a 16bit 12 stop sysrtem would yield files at least 80-100mb, however it seems it produces files in the range of 40mb (for this back anyway).

THanks in advance for your advice and assitance.

Cheers

Andrew
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 06:08:36 pm
Thanks for taking the time to reply ERIK. I must say im now even more confused. So the MF will only give me better toanl transitions due to the 16bit file though Dynamic range is pretty much equaly or only slightly better then a 5dmkII?? If that is the case then why would a landscape photographer go down the MF path??

Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 05, 2013, 07:35:19 pm
Hi,

The major factor in favor of MF is that the sensor can collect more light (called photons). Larger sensor more photons. The incoming light has random nature so it will vary some pixels get more light and some get less light. This variation will be less significant with increasing number of photons.
Therefore, the larger sensor can give a smoother image.

DR on the other hand is per definition the number of photons a pixel can hold, typically around 60000 and the noise reading out the pixels, typically around 15-20 electrons on older MF backs. Each electron corresponds to a photon, essentially. So an older MF back will have a DR of say 60000/20 -> 3000.

3000 is 11.5 stops.  DxO-Mark gives for instance 10.96 EV (per pixel) for the Mamiya ZD-back and 11.86 EV for the Phase One P40+ black.

The Canon is a bit different, it has a very good sensor but it cannot read out the photons as well as more modern designs. DxO-mark gives DR =11.86 (per pixel) for the Canon 5DII. But, Canon has a trick! If you increase ISO, the signal from sensor is amplified, so readout noise goes down because of the amplification, and that makes taht Canon cameras hold DR with increasing ISO. Nikon D800, some other Nikons and Sony cameras are a bit different. They have the signal processing pipeline on the sensor and have therefore less readout noise.

The enclosed figure shows DR for an old MFDB, and older Canon and a very up to date Sony. You can see that the Sony is best at low ISO, but Canon wins above 400 ISO. The old MFDB is on par with Canon at lowest ISO.

I also enclose a figure that takes the difference in number of pixels into account.

DR is the actual number of pixels that the system uses. So, Sony utilizes 13 bits, Mamiya and Canon 11 bits. So when MFDB vendors talk about 16 bits it is simply a marketing term, because the last 4-5 bits are just random noise.

Now, DR is a technical term. It tells about the amount of noise but not about the quality of noise. It may be that some cameras have more ugly noise than other cameras.

Here is a quite technical discussion on the issue: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/dxomark_sensor_for_benchmarking_cameras.shtml

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for taking the time to reply ERIK. I must say im now even more confused. So the MF will only give me better toanl transitions due to the 16bit file though Dynamic range is pretty much equaly or only slightly better then a 5dmkII?? If that is the case then why would a landscape photographer go down the MF path??


Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please ( a comment )
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 05, 2013, 07:39:16 pm
One area where MF may have a potential advantage is microcontrast. An MF sensor needs less resolution for say a 360 PPI print than a smaller sensor, so it makes much lesser demands on the lens.

Top of the line backs have very high resolution but are also horribly expensive.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 05, 2013, 07:42:20 pm
A few thoughts here on a Friday as I'm ending for the week...
- As a newcomer try very hard not to play the numbers games. Instead look at, play with, and print raws and judge that way.
- After evaluating image quality consider that there are many attributes to a camera system not easily quantifiable with numbers, and meaningful factors beyond pure image quality. A system should ideally meet as many of your needs/wants as possible. This includes weight/size, long term flexibility/expandability, manner/enjoyability of operation (do you like shooting with it) etc.
- Working with a dealer (a selfish and self interested suggestion) rather than browsing eBay and forum information only would afford you the ability to test/evaluate/rent/demo a system to come to your own conclusions sans a purchase. I also think there is a lot to be said for having a single resource which can not only easily answer any of your technical questions you know to ask, but can also point out the questions you haven't even thought of yet (what you don't know you don't know). For instance maybe your wants/needs/styles would be better served with a tech cam (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/cambo-new-bodies) than with an SLR (or maybe not, but these are these sorts of questions you may not even know to ask). Most of the time you read someone with a strongly negative view of medium format they were "going it on their own" (not working with a dealer).
- Start by first finding what back/body would be the best fit for your wants, needs, and budgets. THEN look for a good deal on it. If you start the other way around, by first finding a deal, you are in my opinion doing yourself a grave dis-service.
- Coming from slide film you will almost surely be stunned at the ease, technical quality, and enjoyability of playing with a medium format raw file.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 05, 2013, 07:43:29 pm
Hi guys, wondering if you could help me a little please....

I am looking at entering the MF Digital world. I currently shot with a 5DMkII (in occasion) but mainly shoot the 6x17 Tranny Film format.

Andrew

IF you like to shoot 6x17 aspect ratio maybe you should look into a gigapan and shooting stitch panos with your canon.
A 28MP back cropped to 6x17 aspect ratio will not really give you much advantage over doing the same with the 5DII. However panos will give you a huge resolution boost
and let you make very large prints.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 05, 2013, 07:46:18 pm
IF you like to shoot 6x17 aspect ratio maybe you should look into a gigapan and shooting stitch panos with your canon.
A 28MP back cropped to 6x17 aspect ratio will not really give you much advantage over doing the same with the 5DII. However panos will give you a huge resolution boost
and let you make very large prints.

Alternatively a flat tech camera stitch of two horizontal frames would provide a huge boost to 6x17 output over a single capture from any dSLR and would not require the geometric realignment of an image and post-capture cropping/composition of a pan-stitch - though it does require an LCC (which is arbitrarily easy for a set pano stitch setting).
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 08:02:12 pm
thank you all for your replies. While i have a degree of technical understanding, in all honesty a lot of this is going over my head. What i am really chasing is a reasonable dynamic range (greater then my 5dmkII) which is able to provide smooth tonal graduations. I like the ease of digital, however i am trying to get away from complicated post processing which includes lumonosity blending to get the extended dynamic range and generally i am let down by poor colour rendition in my digital setup (5dmkii), lack lustre sharpness as well as abrassive channel clipping when it is coming to the end of its range.

I do enjoy film, however the process of conditions being absouletly 100% perfect to record it accurately on slide as well limited exposure latitiude etc etc can become a little frustrating.

im not sure which way to go now. While i type a reply now and am working on my lumonosity masking/blending for a image, the frustration of it does get a little over bearing.

Thanks
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 05, 2013, 08:08:59 pm
Alternatively a flat tech camera stitch of two horizontal frames would provide a huge boost to 6x17 output over a single capture from any dSLR and would not require the geometric realignment of an image and post-capture cropping/composition of a pan-stitch - though it does require an LCC (which is arbitrarily easy for a set pano stitch setting).

OR for much less money you could use the fotodiox / nex stitch camera with an inexpensive Hasselblad V lens.

http://fotodioxpro.com/index.php/vizelex-rhinocam-for-sony-nex-e-mount-cameras.html (http://fotodioxpro.com/index.php/vizelex-rhinocam-for-sony-nex-e-mount-cameras.html)

Same rectalinear stitch as using a shift lens on a tech camera.

The fotodiox final image quality is quite extrordinary with a relatively simple stitch, but above all you get a ground glass for your composition something you would not have when doing a three shot stitch with a MF digital back and a tech camera.

(http://fotodioxpro.com/RhinoCam_Images/website/vrc-crop-demo-4up.jpg)

(http://fstoppers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/fotodiox-rhinocam.jpg)
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 05, 2013, 08:12:02 pm
Sounds like stitching isn't for you then.

Send me an email and on Monday I'll send you landscape raws from a few digital backs and you can see color, sharpness, detail, and dynic range yourself.

Much better than discussing numbers.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Gigi on April 05, 2013, 08:23:43 pm
thank you all for your replies. While i have a degree of technical understanding, in all honesty a lot of this is going over my head. What i am really chasing is a reasonable dynamic range (greater then my 5dmkII) which is able to provide smooth tonal graduations. I like the ease of digital, however i am trying to get away from complicated post processing.....im not sure which way to go now. While i type a reply now and am working on my lumonosity masking/blending for a image, the frustration of it does get a little over bearing.

Thanks

Its actually rather simple: shoot something with MFDB, and look at the files. You either will see why its worthwhile or it won't be worth it to you. Some say there isn't a difference, others (mostly those on this forum) swear by the difference.

For myself, I was amazed at the files, and remain so every day I look at them. They have an elasticity in post, a luminosity in character, and a sense of subtlety that makes ordinary DSLR images look flat. But the proof is in the pudding - so however you can, take shots (or use Doug's) and look them over carefully. The rest of the discussion of the why's and where's can wait for another day. 
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 08:34:31 pm
Thanks Guys,

Im going to take you up on that Doug, thank you very much.

From what i have seen (the end product of images) online and through others i know, i am certain that i could not get that level of tonal graduation as well as apparent dynamic range (though from other comments it seems there really isnt a DR increase).

Going for something like a Leaf Aptus II 6 (28mp) with a cropped sensor which i believe was released in 2009, to something more modern, apart from resolution and slight DR increase, could i expect similar quality? I dont have a huge budget and couldn't afford a IQ back, so the aptus ii (28mp) may be a good intro do MFD??

Thanks again, it is all appreciated.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 05, 2013, 08:40:05 pm
I like the ease of digital, however i am trying to get away from complicated post processing which includes lumonosity blending to get the extended dynamic range and generally i am let down by poor colour rendition in my digital setup (5dmkii), lack lustre sharpness as well as abrassive channel clipping when it is coming to the end of its range
Thanks

There is complicated stitching there the camera is put on a panoramic head and the whole thing is moved around to produce
a series of images that need a lot of processing to assemble them without distortion.
There are however programs like PTGui that do this very very well and are inexpensive.

Then there are simpler stitches where the lens is maintained static and the sensor is moved around. These stitch together
very very simply and can be handled with plugins that ship stock with Photoshop

As far as dynamic range goes MFD cameras have excellent dynamic ramge, but there are also 35mm DSLR cameras that have the same dynamic range.
The Nikon d800e is a good option for higher resolution and higher dynamic range than the Canon 5dII. I used to own the 5DII and moved to the Nikon d800
for the significantly higher dynamic range. It was an easy move thanks to Canon and Nikon lenses having an excellent used market. Both hold their value very well and sell quick.
I kept a couple of Canon cameras.

Anyway here is a good comparison made by the owner of an IQ180 top of the line MFDB with a d800e

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)

It's a landscape comparison so you should find it useful.

Here is DXO test results for dynamic range.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8538/8612551162_f42b9403ab_b.jpg)

HEre is a quick test I did for highlight recovery with the d800:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/7412274614_0ab5f4bf2f_c.jpg)
I could not achieve this to the same level with the 5DII.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 08:58:44 pm
Hi Fred, the highlight receovery is quite exceptional

After reading the article you linked to (circle of confusion) i can see a huge difference (even though the article does not say so) , especially in Comparison 2 100% crop. To me this is a major difference in tonal graduation.

Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 05, 2013, 09:00:14 pm
Here is another interesting article showing the shadow recovery
of the d800E.

http://www.sisson.co.nz/nikon-camera-lens-reviews-for-landscape-photography/nikon-camera-lens-reviews-for-landscape-photography/nikon-d800e-dynamic-range-test-nd-grad-filter.html (http://www.sisson.co.nz/nikon-camera-lens-reviews-for-landscape-photography/nikon-camera-lens-reviews-for-landscape-photography/nikon-d800e-dynamic-range-test-nd-grad-filter.html)
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 09:29:28 pm
All those reviews do look good for the D800e, however it seems to be (and for some reason it really isnt picked up in these reviews) that the tonal grautions and "3d feel" is hugely apparent in the MF backs
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 05, 2013, 09:31:42 pm
Hi Fred, the highlight receovery is quite exceptional

After reading the article you linked to (circle of confusion) i can see a huge difference (even though the article does not say so) , especially in Comparison 2 100% crop. To me this is a major difference in tonal graduation.



There are a few things that can be seen in the test.
In the comparison 1 you can see the need for correction of lens/sensor color cast on the IQ180.
Notice how the sky has an un natural reddish/pink shift.

the difference you see in Comparison 2 I would say has more to do with raw converter.
copy the two shots into photoshop and bring up the saturation in the Nikon.
Some camera profiles in raw converters have higher saturation by default.

That said the IQ180 has slightly higher color depth while the Nikon has slightly higher dynamic range.
Both are EXCELLENT. The IQ180 certainly has the edge as far as very very large prints.

The difference in price is more than 14x.

OLder backs like the DM28 do not have either the color depth or dynamic range of the D800e.

see here:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/792%7C0/(brand)/Nikon/(appareil2)/512%7C0/(brand2)/Leaf (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/792%7C0/(brand)/Nikon/(appareil2)/512%7C0/(brand2)/Leaf)
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on April 05, 2013, 09:55:34 pm
Alosurdo,

Any time you are going to be investing in new equipment - whether Nikon or any of the medium format digital offerings from Phase, Hasselblad, Pentax or Leica - you really must be able to test the equipment on your own terms and see for yourself. Otherwise, a decision can become quite confusing and daunting.

I shoot with the D800 and it's an excellent camera, however, I prefer my Hasselblad H4s whenever conditions permit. I like the rendering, the look, the tonal gradation and the crispness of the files. But, that's my preference.

Since you have a lot of experience with transparencies, you should be up and running in no time and creating the type of beautiful files you are looking for with a minimum of fuss.

Good Luck with you decision,
Ed
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: theguywitha645d on April 05, 2013, 10:53:53 pm
Andrew, you seem to have some kind of expectation for this move. You also have some requirement that this should be an easy system. I would get some experience with the camera you are thinking about as well as cameras like the D800 or Pentax 645D--the Pentax is in essence a modern DSLR (the Mamiya and back you are looking at are rather dated). Yes, there are some real advantages to these camera--I use a Pentax 645D, Phase p25 back, and a D800. I prefer the MFD over the D800, but the D800 is an exceptional camera.

BTW, while the back manufacturers state the images are 16-bit, there really is no 16-bit camera in existence. You can have the places for 16-bits of information, but that does not mean they are used. I use scientific camera and they are often described as 16-bit also, but the dealers will readily admit they do not have 16-bits of information. The Phase rep said the same thing about my p25+.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 05, 2013, 11:05:36 pm
Thanks for the reply. It doesnt have to be "easy" however the process from shooting slide and having a end product is quite a long process. Just after a system with a lot better tonal reproduction and DR then what i am used to (in digital anyway). THe Mamiya 645DF i belive isnt that old at all. THe leaf back was released in 2009 so yes old, but i wouldnt say overly.

With my budget, it is hard to try before you buy as dealers dont carry these entry(ish) level MF setups.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on April 05, 2013, 11:35:28 pm
Budgets can always be a problem, but some of the dealers do have used equipment that they inspect and will warrant. I'm not a customer of Doug Peterson's, but he has a good reputation as does Lance. It would'nt hurt to check with them.

Ed
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: theguywitha645d on April 06, 2013, 12:50:22 am
THe Mamiya 645DF i belive isnt that old at all. THe leaf back was released in 2009 so yes old, but i wouldnt say overly.

If this is your first adventure into the world of MFD, you may find the DF and Phase back very limited. On a Pentax 645D you will find the exposure mode you expect on a DSLR, unlimited bulb exposures, a useable ISO 1600, in-camera multiple exposures in RAW, an intervalometer, 9-point AF, etc. The DF is not going to do that. Don't get me wrong, I shoot a Phase P25+ back on a view camera which is far from a DSLR experience. However, if you can get your hands on one of these cameras, it will let you know what you are getting yourself in for. I am not saying the camera you want is bad, it will take really nice images, but it will be a different experience from your Canon.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 06, 2013, 03:05:21 am
If you are looking at a DM28 that has a 1.3 crop I would also suggest looking at the Pentax 645D.
The Pentax 645D is a great camera with the only limitation being that it is an MF camera, bu with a small 44x33mm sensor, but so is the DM28
It has far better functionality than the DF. Not to mention that the DF is not the most reliable body out there.
The Pentax 645D also has the best weather sealing of all MFD systemes.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 06, 2013, 06:00:55 am
I am looking at entering the MF Digital world. I currently shot with a 5DMkII (in occasion) but mainly shoot the 6x17 Tranny Film format.

Why don't you just use color negative film on the 6x17? That would solve your dynamic range problem.

Anyway, I use an H3D-31, which is of the same era of the Leaf Aptus 6. It has much cleaner shadows than the 5D MKII, which is particularly bad for a full frame 24x36. Also: be wary of these cameras offered at a "good price" and check what the present price of the cited Pentax 645D is, it has been reduced recently.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 06, 2013, 08:30:41 am
If this is your first adventure into the world of MFD, you may find the DF and Phase back very limited. On a Pentax 645D you will find the exposure mode you expect on a DSLR, unlimited bulb exposures, a useable ISO 1600, in-camera multiple exposures in RAW, an intervalometer, 9-point AF, etc. The DF is not going to do that. [...] I am not saying the camera you want is bad, it will take really nice images, but it will be a different experience from your Canon.

Absolutely it will be a different experience than a Canon regarding body size/features.

As a minor corrections/additions though to your specific points:
- the DF body does have unlimited bulb exposures (it also has programatic exposures up to 1 hour, and a Time mode which, like a on a view camera, opens with one push and closes with another).
-The DF body also does have a built in intervalometer.
- Many digital backs (e.g. Phase One P30+ or P65+) have usable ISO1600 at either full resolution or in what is called "sensor+" which is a reduced resolution mode with better high ISO.

The Pentax 645 does have a 9 point AF (the DF/DF+ technically has a 3 point AF but functionality wise it behaves much like a 1-point AF system), though coming from a dSLR the 9 points are much tighter together in the frame than you might expect.

*Of course you need a digital back which is capable of long exposure for this capability of the body to be relevant. Several digital backs can go to one hour, many can only go to 30 seconds, so definitely something to consider there.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 06, 2013, 08:38:19 am
From what i have seen (the end product of images) online and through others i know, i am certain that i could not get that level of tonal graduation as well as apparent dynamic range (though from other comments it seems there really isnt a DR increase).

Yes, well, again I'd encourage you to look at raws in a raw processor (which I can send monday) or capture and examine your own raws (we can arrange an evaluation rental which counts towards any purchase).

Do some research on those posting in the thread and pay attention to who actually uses the equipment they are critiquing. Some posters love to make strong definitive statements about gear they've never used. Their opinions still have value (especially when they make great effort to research and remain neutral), but it's valuable to interpret their statements with that context in mind. Other posters have personal vendettas (not too strong a word, trust me) to fill. That's the best and worst part of forums: everyone gets to put in their two cents on an equal basis and you'll get lots of different views.  ;D

Ultimately the only thing that matters is your results as viewed by your eyes (and the eyes of your customers if applicable) in the context of your needs, wants and priorities.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 06, 2013, 09:01:22 am
Hi,

I am one of those who have used neither cameras, but I have mde some digging using raw files photographed by others. Neutrality? I don't know.

Analyzing pictures taken by others is quite OK in my humble opinion. The images care little about who has taken them. Unfortunately, very few comparable raw images are available. That said I have seen comparison shots between Canon 5DII and Pentax 645D, Phase One IQ180 and Nikon D800E, Leica S2 and Nikon D800, Hasselblad 4D50 and Nikon D800E, all those images were raw.

I have seen significant differences in color in some cases. Now, I think that color depends much on raw covertion and it may also be related to perception, but I have seen raws from the P645D which I preferred to samples from Canon 5DII and Nikon D3X shot at the same time. I was processing those images myself.

I feel a bit confused about your discussion of DR. DR is essentially the amount of shadow detail you can extract from an image that is correctly exposed to the right.  An image without excessive processing in the raw converter will not show the full dynamic range of the file. The only way to find out about DR is to develop raw files yourself, and they should be similarly exposed.

The best way to find out is to get access to the back you want to buy, take a few hundred exposures in the conditions you shoot and develop with the raw converter you plan to use.

I enclose same image in three development variants, just to show the flexibility you have.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, well, again I'd encourage you to look at raws in a raw processor (which I can send monday) or capture and examine your own raws (we can arrange an evaluation rental which counts towards any purchase).

Do some research on those posting in the thread and pay attention to who actually uses the equipment they are critiquing. Some posters love to make strong definitive statements about gear they've never used. Their opinions still have value (especially when they make great effort to research and remain neutral), but it's valuable to interpret their statements with that context in mind. Other posters have personal vendettas (not too strong a word, trust me) to fill. That's the best and worst part of forums: everyone gets to put in their two cents and you'll get lots of views.  ;D

Ultimately the only thing that matters is your results as viewed by your eyes (and the eyes of your customers if applicable) in the context of your needs, wants and priorities.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: Jeffery Salter on April 06, 2013, 09:12:48 am

I shoot mainly landscape images and am wondering if this combination will suit.


Hi Alosurdo,

I use a MFD with a crop back and carry a 5DMK II.  I rarely use my 5D MKII. I do not do Landscape photography.

That being said.  The most important question to ask is what type of landscapes you intend to shoot.  Urban scenes with dynamic movements of people and cars or forestry and mountains.  Each has it's own challenges.  To me it's best to keep it simple.  Why would you use a gig pan which takes numerous exposures or shots when you can do it in three frames?  Cartier Bresson is expressed it best in his phrase "The decisive moment"  

I suggest you look at the work of Stephen Wilkes  and his day to night series.  It was all done with a tech camera.  On Luminous landscape there are a hoard of great landscape photographers who use (1) MFD and (1) tripod who share links to websites.  If some of the imagery resonates with you, reach out to them for what's in their camera kits.

Your artistic vision always comes first.  Find out what you want to say as a visual artist.  Then find the right tool to express it.

Regards,
Jeffery
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 06, 2013, 04:12:28 pm
Alosurdo

Take a look at the work of Jack Dykinga, pulitzer prize winning landscape photographer.
He went from 4x5 film to the D800e cameras and 24mm, 45mm, and the 85mm tilt shift lenses and a few teles.

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/how-to/shooting/transforming-large-format.html (http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/how-to/shooting/transforming-large-format.html)
Here he describes his 35mm DSLR techniques and there are many images in the article. He covers much of his transition from 4x5 film to 35mm DSLR for landscape.


http://www.dykinga.com/gear (http://www.dykinga.com/gear)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/insights/blogs/photography/learning-see-conversation-jack-dykinga.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/insights/blogs/photography/learning-see-conversation-jack-dykinga.html)

Being that you shoot film you may find his choice relevant to your situation.

I too shoot film 6x8cm and 8x10 in.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 06, 2013, 05:52:53 pm
Firstly, thank you everyone for contributing to this thread and help point me in the right direction.

Doug i have sent you a email yesterday. Thank you.

Erik, sorry, i should be a little clearer on what i mean on DR (most probably not the best term to use). Really if i could get the sameor slightly greater DR that i get from my 5D2, that would be great, though i am more concerned in how it renders tones. With the 5D2 when we are getting close to pure white its like it hits a wall and looks very abrupt. I am chasing subtle tonal changes from light to dark, not a hard banging, clipping looking tonal transition. I hope this makes sense, i do apologise for the my lack of technical description. Thank you for sharing the photos, can i ask what back you used for these and can i assume the first shot was the raw unedited file?

Jeffery, i do shoot a lot of coastal shots with water, beaches, rivers. I also shoot in the mountains and on occasions city scapes. I do work in the photographic industry though not as a full time photographer. This camera is being purchased mainly for a hobby use, i do sell prints, i do do client work however it is not my main source of income. I am simply a keen photographer.

Fred, thanks for sharing those links. I am sitting on the fence with the d800e, from what i have seen, i am not totally convinced as of yet.

Thanks again for your assistance

Regards

Andrew

EDIT: At the moment i am leaning towards the Mamiya DM33 Kit (i think it is the same as the Leaf Aptus 11 7 back just re branded). I will keep searching around for one with in my price range.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 06, 2013, 07:28:13 pm
I have just downloaded a test raw file from the mamiya website http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/sample_aptus-II_7_raw_images.asp (for the back DM33 which i am interested in)

I do like what i see and what i am able to extract from these files. The underexposed image has a lot of retrievable information in the shadow areas which was easily extractable with out and loss of image quality.

I have attached screen shots of the original and 100% crops, pre and post a quick raw file conversion (however you are most probably aware of these capabilities).


Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 06, 2013, 07:49:23 pm
Hi,

I just checked the images in RawDigger. Here are the raw histograms.

Best regards
Erik


I have just downloaded a test raw file from the mamiya website http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/sample_aptus-II_7_raw_images.asp (for the back DM33 which i am interested in)

I do like what i see and what i am able to extract from these files. The underexposed image has a lot of retrievable information in the shadow areas which was easily extractable with out and loss of image quality.

I have attached screen shots of the original and 100% crops, pre and post a quick raw file conversion (however you are most probably aware of these capabilities).



Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 06, 2013, 08:56:05 pm
Thanks for sharing that Erik, it certainly looks like a interesting piece of software. I am assuming this is a measure of how the histogram falls and in what range. I have tested it with various Canon files out of interest and in all of them i notice that the right hand side of the histogram is like a wall. It seems to just simply stop at this point (see attached).

Your thoughts and insights on what you can decipher from the DM & Canon histogram would be appreciated.

Thanks again

Andrew
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 12:15:22 am
Hi,

What RawDigger shows is the "real histogram", it is calculated from raw data. The spike on right says that there are some saturated pixels. It may look worse than it is. Try to toggle "Log scale" on Y-axis. With log scale, small numbers can be easily seen but it may overemphase small numbers.

You can click on OvExp to highlight clipped pixels.

Two small observations on the Mamiya files you posted.

Both seems to be exposed two stops below ETTR, obvious on the stones, less so on the beach scene, but if you toggle "log scale" on Y axis you see that both histograms stop around 4500 pixels or so. That essentially mean the image is underexposed by two stops, but that would give some headroom.

The dynamic range of the "beach scene" i would put around 7 steps if I assume something like 1K pixels to be a significant number.

The other observation is that the file the Maiya produces is 14 bits and not 16 bits. It is very unlikely that it contains more than 12 bits of useful data, but it is definitively not 16 bit, as 16 bits would correspond to 2^16, that is 65536. True 16 bit files go to 65000 on the horizontal axis.

The last screenshot is from an IQ180 file I got from Tim Ashley. That shows a histogram from an IQ180. Rawdigger has some problems with 16 bit files. and ev-scale X-Axis checked, I can get around it unchecking "Auto" and choosing larger "Bin size".

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 01:09:56 am
Hi,

I would say that you expose a bit to far to the right, possibly. Some pixels are saturated, that is clipped. That may be OK depending on the subject.

From the your Canon image I got the impression the image would have good shadow detail, and I would not expect it to be noisy.

I enclose two screen dumps, from images I shot yesterday the first had some blinking pixels so I reshot with 1 EV less exposure.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for sharing that Erik, it certainly looks like a interesting piece of software. I am assuming this is a measure of how the histogram falls and in what range. I have tested it with various Canon files out of interest and in all of them i notice that the right hand side of the histogram is like a wall. It seems to just simply stop at this point (see attached).

Your thoughts and insights on what you can decipher from the DM & Canon histogram would be appreciated.

Thanks again

Andrew
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 07, 2013, 01:22:03 am
"The other observation is that the file the Maiya produces is 14 bits and not 16 bits. It is very unlikely that it contains more than 12 bits of useful data, but it is definitively not 16 bit, as 16 bits would correspond to 2^16, that is 65536. True 16 bit files go to 65000 on the horizontal axis. "

This is definitely a concern..... It produces only 14bit files????
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 07, 2013, 01:59:44 am
I have downloaded sample images from the Leaf Aptus-II 8 40 MP and Leaf Aptus-II 12 80 MP and they are both showing 16k along the horizontal... Why would that be?
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 02:38:16 am
Hi,

It seems that they are saving 14 bit data. To me it seems like there is little information below -9 EV, you see that the distribution essentially becomes flat. So I would say that the dynamic range of the sensor is 12 EV (-9 to + 3), that corresponds to 12 bits. Saving 16 bits would not give any more information.

What happens is that read noise is distributed over more values, it is essentially fake signals.

Keep in mind that the histogram says a lot about the amount of noise, but nothing about the quality of noise. Different raw converters may handle noise differently.

Here is a comparison of Nikon D800E to IQ180: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts?start=2

And the same pictures but IQ180 image processed in Capture One: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts?start=3

The images above were used with the kind permission of Tim Ashley.

Best regards
Erik

I have downloaded sample images from the Leaf Aptus-II 8 40 MP and Leaf Aptus-II 12 80 MP and they are both showing 16k along the horizontal... Why would that be?
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 07, 2013, 02:51:36 am

It seems that they are saving 14 bit data. To me it seems like there is little information below -9 EV, you see that the distribution essentially becomes flat. So I would say that the dynamic range of the sensor is 12 EV (-9 to + 3), that corresponds to 12 bits. Saving 16 bits would not give any more information.



Thanks for taking the time for your detailed responses Erik; Though... i am well and truely confused now. A Dm33  recording only 12bits and the Aptus II 8 and 12 recording 12-14bits. The canon i belive records the same... So the MF cameras are recording less or equal to a 5D2...

Not sure if i am mis interpreting this and if going to MFD something like the DM33 will really be of any benefit or would i be going backwards.

Again, thanks for the information and replies, im just not sure what to make of this info and what direction to go in.

Regards

Andrew
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 03:10:45 am
Hi,

I would suggest that you try to arrange so you can test the camera you intend to buy, or try to get more representative samples.

As I said before DR and histogram says little about the quality of noise. There is in all probability also a sample variation between backs. Different vendors may go to different depths to calibrate their sensors.

Marc McCalmont, a very helpful person on these forums, has found that his Pentax K5 had better DN than his Phase One P45+. With the IQ180 he had similar DR to his Pentax K5. Marc has posted raw images that illustrated this.

If you need best DR in DSLRs, Nikon and Sony seems to be best in that are, and Canon has done little progress on DR. In APS-C, Pentax seems to making the best of the Sony sensors they use.

Best regards
Erik


Thanks for taking the time for your detailed responses Erik; Though... i am well and truely confused now. A Dm33  recording only 12bits and the Aptus II 8 and 12 recording 12-14bits. The canon i belive records the same... So the MF cameras are recording less or equal to a 5D2...

Not sure if i am mis interpreting this and if going to MFD something like the DM33 will really be of any benefit or would i be going backwards.

Again, thanks for the information and replies, im just not sure what to make of this info and what direction to go in.

Regards

Andrew

Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 03:14:33 am
Here is Marc's posting:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50895.0

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 03:21:36 am
Hi,

Now that I have some more insight in your needs I would point a bit at some tests by Miles Hecker.

http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt1.html

http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt2.html

And also this: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50977.0

Just to confuse a bit more, I have downloaded a pair of comparison images between Canon 1DII and Phase One P65+, and the P65+ had much better noise and shadow detail. That comparison was shot by Peter Eastway and I don't think it was biased. I don't think the copyright allows me to share the images, unfortunately.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/41-phase-one-images-for-download

I also added some plots from DxO mark.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 07, 2013, 07:23:26 am
Rawdigger is an interesting piece of software, but I tried it on largely identical images taken with the H3D-31 and the D800 (the church pictures I posted in another thread) and I find the results puzzling. I don't think that the results are really relevant for real photographic uses.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 07, 2013, 07:46:29 am
Erik, sorry, i should be a little clearer on what i mean on DR (most probably not the best term to use). Really if i could get the sameor slightly greater DR that i get from my 5D2, that would be great, though i am more concerned in how it renders tones. With the 5D2 when we are getting close to pure white its like it hits a wall and looks very abrupt. I am chasing subtle tonal changes from light to dark, not a hard banging, clipping looking tonal transition. I hope this makes sense, i do apologise for the my lack of technical description.

You will get better DR than the one from the 5D2 with about any other camera. The 5D2 is notoriously famous for having more noise than the competition in its shadow. Due to the structure of this noise ("banding"...), it seems to be read noise. You won't get that particular noise from a CCD (all MFs use CCDs as opposed to CMOS) and you won't get it from Sony full frame sensors, which duplicated the read-out lines to measure and remove that particular noise from the raw data. The first sensor to use that system was the one in the A900, BTW.

What this means in photographic practice is that it is possible to "raise the shadows" of MF cameras and 24x36 cameras with a Sony sensor without having structured noise appearing. In turn, that allows one to underexpose a little bit so as to have smoother highlights. In my experience with the A900 at base iso some years ago, the dynamic range of that camera was already sufficient for most photographic uses. In other words, if I tried to use the complete dynamic range of that camera (by raising shadows and recovering highlights), it would already be too much and look like an HDR picture with typical HDR artefacts like halos around high contrast transitions.

What does this mean for us as photographers? It means that the real difference is not in the DR of the sensor, but in the way the data is processed. The real secret lies in processing the DR of the camera to fit in the limited DR of our screens or prints while preserving smooth transitions and good details. This is, traditionally, a strong point of MF manufacturers, not that Nikon/Canon/Sony can't do it, but because these brands compete on other metrics (e.g. high iso).
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 07, 2013, 07:47:40 am
Thanks guys for replying.

Jerome, im also not sure about the Rawdigger software either, though the 2 sample images that leaf have of the DM33 on the website (see previous post) are pretty crummy. ive tried raw processing these in both Capture one and ACR and expected Capture one to do a much better job, but was suprised when ACR won hands down.

RE: the Pentax 645. I am not 100% sold on this system, yesit it does have better resolution then the sytems i am looking at, though as i understand, it is not really upgradeable when the time comes.

Regards

Andrew
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 07, 2013, 05:00:20 pm
What does this mean for us as photographers? It means that the real difference is not in the DR of the sensor, but in the way the data is processed. The real secret lies in processing the DR of the camera to fit in the limited DR of our screens or prints while preserving smooth transitions and good details. This is, traditionally, a strong point of MF manufacturers, not that Nikon/Canon/Sony can't do it, but because these brands compete on other metrics (e.g. high iso).

Shadow recovery with the Sony 35mm sensor.

Here is the original file jpeg right out of camera
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8106/8628371435_4d7da6cb40.jpg)

click on the link below to see the recovery that demonstrates the dynamic range advantages in the shadows.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8106/8628371435_23ef91c167_o.gif (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8106/8628371435_23ef91c167_o.gif)
pixel peeping at 1:2 Underexposed and same file with recovered

Edit: I made the above animated gif into a link rather than displaying the image directly as the animation
is a bit distracting while reading.


And this is processing the jpeg in photoshop and not even using a raw converter... so this is about as bad as it gets.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 11:30:20 pm
Hi,

The value of Rawdigger is that it shows the actual data in the raw file without processing. So it gives good indication about clipping (as it doesn't attempt highlight recovery) and you can also estimate the dynamic range of the scene. It does say very little about the looks of noise.

Best regards
Erik


Rawdigger is an interesting piece of software, but I tried it on largely identical images taken with the H3D-31 and the D800 (the church pictures I posted in another thread) and I find the results puzzling. I don't think that the results are really relevant for real photographic uses.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 07, 2013, 11:39:37 pm
Hi,

What was essentially new with the Exmoor sensor is that it has massively parallell Analog Digital Converters, there is one for each column, so there are over 6000 of them, working in parallell. So the signal coming out from the chip is actually digital. Canon and some Nikons still have off chip converters. Nikon D4 has off chip converters and D800/D800E have the Exmoor chip.

Correlated double sampling, measuring voltage after chip reset and subtracting from voltage after exposure is used by all CMOS sensors, but it is not possible on CCD as readout on a CCD is destructive.

I think the same design was used on the Alpha 700.

Best regards
Erik


You will get better DR than the one from the 5D2 with about any other camera. The 5D2 is notoriously famous for having more noise than the competition in its shadow. Due to the structure of this noise ("banding"...), it seems to be read noise. You won't get that particular noise from a CCD (all MFs use CCDs as opposed to CMOS) and you won't get it from Sony full frame sensors, which duplicated the read-out lines to measure and remove that particular noise from the raw data. The first sensor to use that system was the one in the A900, BTW.


Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 08, 2013, 02:00:35 am
Shadow recovery with the Sony 35mm sensor.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8106/8628371435_23ef91c167_o.gif)
pixel peeping at 1:2 Underexposed and same file with recovered

And this is processing the jpeg in photoshop and not even using a raw converter... so this is about as bad as it gets.


When I see your continuous stream of answers trying to prove the same point again and again and the time you must take to produce these flashing comparisons I wonder what is wrong with you.

Yes, one can recover underexposed shadows with a Sony sensor. I know, I have been doing so for the past 4 years.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 08, 2013, 02:07:28 am
The value of Rawdigger is that it shows the actual data in the raw file without processing. So it gives good indication about clipping (as it doesn't attempt highlight recovery) and you can also estimate the dynamic range of the scene. It does say very little about the looks of noise.

I saw that the clipping routines of rawdigger give different results on the same scene taken by two different cameras, which I find puzzling. The appearance of the histograms in some display modes is also difficult to explain from sensor data alone (but could be an effect of how raw are compressed).
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 08, 2013, 02:37:20 am
Hi,

Can you give some examples?

I know there are some bugs, but I have not seen major issues, like false results.

Best regards
Erik

I saw that the clipping routines of rawdigger give different results on the same scene taken by two different cameras, which I find puzzling. The appearance of the histograms in some display modes is also difficult to explain from sensor data alone (but could be an effect of how raw are compressed).
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 08, 2013, 03:31:13 am
The correct place to discuss rawdigger issues is the associated forum from its developer, not lula. I will post my observations there.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 08, 2013, 12:32:08 pm
When I see your continuous stream of answers trying to prove the same point again and again and the time you must take to produce these flashing comparisons I wonder what is wrong with you.

Yes, one can recover underexposed shadows with a Sony sensor. I know, I have been doing so for the past 4 years.

Now you have me really puzzled.
You correctly bring up the point that how you use large dynamic range to move and fit it into the display medium, be it a monitor or a print.
You go on to say that this was traditionally a strong point of MF cameras, and I agree on that because there was a time when they had more dynamic range than
other formats. You then go on to say that that does not mean that Nikon/Canon/Sony can't do that. On this I agree to a certain point.
Canon unfortunately currently is not quite up there with the Sony/Nikon sensors... as a result I chose to move (in part) from Canon to Nikon.

What really puzzles me is why does a visual example of what you are saying upset you and make you think something is wrong with me?
You question the time I spend making the example...... It probably took me less time to take that example, load it into photoshop and export an animated gif.
After all don't they say an image is worth a thousand words?

alosurdo stated he is on the fence regarding the d800e, but is not sure. He also said that one of the main things he is looking for is dynamic range in the shadows.
I posted the example for him. If I recall correctly I have not posted an example I have taken of shadow recovery, just highlight recovery.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 08, 2013, 12:46:30 pm
OK,

But that leaves us without a clue what you meant.

Best regards
Erik


The correct place to discuss rawdigger issues is the associated forum from its developer, not lula. I will post my observations there.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 08, 2013, 12:54:40 pm
What I was trying to say but was not understood is that, in photographic practice (as opposed to internet tests), it is much easier for me to get smoother highlights on my H3D than my D800. The reason is not that the DR of the sensor itself is higher (it is sufficient for both cameras), but that the camera meters are calibrated differently (I already adjusted the D800 meter down) and that Phocus is optimized for that task. Nikon apparently chose to optimize their cameras for better low light performance, it is an area they compete for.

This will not appear on internet "tests", since they make sure that exposure and processing is the same.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 08, 2013, 01:56:17 pm
Hi,

OK, my take is that to make the best use of any camera we need to expose correctly to the right. That is the only way to fully utilize the sensor.

Using Rawanalyzer, possible bugs/issues notwithstanding, is helpful in learning how close we get to saturation in the highlights. The way I work is that I make an exposure, check histogram and try to expose just short of blinking highlights.

Best regards
Erik

What I was trying to say but was not understood is that, in photographic practice (as opposed to internet tests), it is much easier for me to get smoother highlights on my H3D than my D800. The reason is not that the DR of the sensor itself is higher (it is sufficient for both cameras), but that the camera meters are calibrated differently (I already adjusted the D800 meter down) and that Phocus is optimized for that task. Nikon apparently chose to optimize their cameras for better low light performance, it is an area they compete for.

This will not appear on internet "tests", since they make sure that exposure and processing is the same.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 08, 2013, 06:04:10 pm
OK, my take is that to make the best use of any camera we need to expose correctly to the right. That is the only way to fully utilize the sensor.

In theory, we should expose to the right. In practice, as opposed to theory, we tend to oversaturate a small range of pixels by doing so and don't notice them as they are too few to show on the histogram. These are the values needed for the smooth high tones that the O.P. is seeking.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 08, 2013, 06:44:35 pm
Hi, sorry to get off track here. I am looking at a few raw files from a p30+ back. I have loaded them in raw digger and this time get the horizontal showing approx 60000. However when i go to the exif under bits ber sampel it says 8 8 8 ... wondering what this means and why not 16.

TO some of the most recent comments, i do apologise as i am not as technically learned in sensor technology and breaking it down. FOr my images, DR is important, thought i would say this means in the application of post processing. i.e. what can i get back from the raw files. With my 5d2, i expose way to the right, sometimes a little to far just because if it is a large DR scene i know the shadows will be gone if not. One of the qualities i am looking for is tonal smoothness in the highlights, as well as recoverable shadows, though highlight tonal graduation or smoothness (what ever you want to call it) is something of importance to me.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 08, 2013, 10:59:19 pm
Here is a follow up to my previous post showing the dynamic range and shadow recovery of the D800 using an in camera jpeg.
This time I used Adobe Camera Raw. Also this is full frame showing highlight all the way to shadows in the recovered image.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8105/8633809552_a0a67ee815_c.jpg)

Despite being a very dark capture it can be recovered with very natural colors and gradation form the detailed off light beige wall to the shadows behind the plant.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 08, 2013, 11:15:07 pm
Hi,

I am surprised about the P30+ EXIF saying bits per sample saying 8 8 8, but I just wouldn't care.

The approach you take to exposure is reasonable in my view.

Anders Torger made a good comparison of an older MF back, a Canon 5DII and a Nikon D7000. He has images to show.
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/photography/noise-test.html

Best way to find out is to do a practical test.

Best regards
Erik


Hi, sorry to get off track here. I am looking at a few raw files from a p30+ back. I have loaded them in raw digger and this time get the horizontal showing approx 60000. However when i go to the exif under bits ber sampel it says 8 8 8 ... wondering what this means and why not 16.

TO some of the most recent comments, i do apologise as i am not as technically learned in sensor technology and breaking it down. FOr my images, DR is important, thought i would say this means in the application of post processing. i.e. what can i get back from the raw files. With my 5d2, i expose way to the right, sometimes a little to far just because if it is a large DR scene i know the shadows will be gone if not. One of the qualities i am looking for is tonal smoothness in the highlights, as well as recoverable shadows, though highlight tonal graduation or smoothness (what ever you want to call it) is something of importance to me.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 08, 2013, 11:49:41 pm
What I was trying to say but was not understood is that, in photographic practice (as opposed to internet tests), it is much easier for me to get smoother highlights on my H3D than my D800. The reason is not that the DR of the sensor itself is higher (it is sufficient for both cameras), but that the camera meters are calibrated differently (I already adjusted the D800 meter down) and that Phocus is optimized for that task. Nikon apparently chose to optimize their cameras for better low light performance, it is an area they compete for.

Thew D800 offers a +/- 1 stop optimal exposure fine tuning in the setup menu independently for the three exposure metering methods.. Matrix, Center weighted and Spot.
On top of that there is a 5 stop exposure compensation that cam be done while shooting outside of the menu. This is a total of 6 stops adjustment and should cover any compensation you need to move exposures to the left or right of the histogram.

In theory, we should expose to the right. In practice, as opposed to theory, we tend to oversaturate a small range of pixels by doing so and don't notice them as they are too few to show on the histogram. These are the values needed for the smooth high tones that the O.P. is seeking.

It can be easy to miss a a small area of pixels that are oversaturate (clipped). However there is a handy way to check on the D800.
Review the photo on the LCD and display the histogram. Then zooming in on the image the histogram is calculated only on the zoomed in image
and it animates in real time as you move around on the image. I use this function a lot when shooting makeup with glossy or metalic eyeshadows.
It's great for any shots where there are small hotspots that you don't want to clip.
When the histogram is calculated for the zoomed in image the small areas become much more evident on the histogram.

Also if you go into highlight clipping warning mode (the one that flashes on and off) even the smallest clipping will be shown.   
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 09, 2013, 01:00:02 am
Hi,

A larger sensor has a small advantage in several respects. Potentially, that is correctly exposed to the right at base ISO a larger sensor will collect more photons and that will give smoother mid tones.

Regarding the 3D effect, it's often talked about but seldom obvious what is meant.

- It often means short DoF.  Focal lengths on MF are longer and that helps in that area. Smaller formats can use larger apertures but often run in problems with magenta/green fringes in slightly out of focus areas. MF lenses are often limited to f/2.8 and at that aperture the problems are much reduced.

- It may also mean microcontrast, the conrast between two adjoint pixels.  This would be higher on an MF lens of similar quality compared to 135.

- MF cameras don't have OLP-filtering. OLP-filtering is intended to reduce microcontrast in order to avoid aliasing (fake detail) and Moiré. Nikon D800E has a n OLP filter that is disabled.

- Zeiss lenses are said have a 3D look. I'm somewhat skeptical, having two Zeiss zooms for my Sony Alpha and also trying to use two older Hasselblad lenses (a Sonnar 150/4 and a Macro Planar 120/4). That said, the Hasselblad lenses are very good, impressive performance even on a 24MP APS-C DSLR.

A thread on DR: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76997.0

Best regards
Erik

All those reviews do look good for the D800e, however it seems to be (and for some reason it really isnt picked up in these reviews) that the tonal grautions and "3d feel" is hugely apparent in the MF backs
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please (have you tried HDR?)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 09, 2013, 01:17:20 am
Hi,

HDR may be helpful while you try to decide where to go. In the enclosed pair of images the left one is a HDR from three exposures and the right one from a single DNG image.

The cropped part shows that there is significant noise in the darks of the DNG image while the HDR holds good detail.

I make HDR using "Merge to HDR Pro" in Photoshop CS5, but save the image as a 32 bit TIFF and do tone mapping in Lightroom.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 09, 2013, 02:40:45 am
Thanks ERIK, im trying to stay away from HDR. In your 100% crop, there seems to be some serious artificating/banding in the sky towards the clouds and sun
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 09, 2013, 04:11:05 am
Hi,

Yes indeed, I prefer the DNG. Shooting into the sun is a major problem for digital, I don't think we get resolved for a long time. But, are you in need of eztended DR combining multiple exposures is a workable option.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 09, 2013, 05:24:51 am
- Zeiss lenses are said have a 3D look. I'm somewhat skeptical, having two Zeiss zooms for my Sony Alpha

You have a Sony Alpha camera and Zeiss lenses and you did not notice that the rendering is very different between these Zeiss lenses and older Minolta Lenses?  ???
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 09, 2013, 06:51:07 am
Hi,

I mostly use medium apertures, never shoot wide open essentially. What I have found:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/74-zeiss-macro-planar-120-on-sony-alpha-99-with-an-arax-tilt-adapter
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/73-sonnar-150-cb-on-dslr-using-arax-tilt-adapter
(I found out the cause of flare on the Sonnar 150/4, I will update that article)
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/72-zeissness


I have:

---- Often used in recent time ----
SAL 16-80/3.5-4.5ZA
SAL 24-70/2.7 ZA

SAL 70-400/4-5.6G
SAL 70-300/3.5-4.5G

Minolta 80-200/2.8G APO (black)
Minolta 100/2.8 Macro
Minolta 400/4.5G APO

---- Newly acquired ----

Hasselblad Zeiss Sonnar 150/4
Hasselblad Zeiss Macro Planar 120/4


---- Seldom used in recent times ----
Minolta 300/4G APO
Minolta 50/1.4
Minolta 20/2.8

I have obviously not tested each lens against each other lens but I don't see a lot of typical differences. The new Sony lenses have circular apertures and that shows in bo
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: jerome_m on April 09, 2013, 07:37:42 am
I don't know what to say. The difference of rendering between the Zeiss and Minolta lenses is one of the major points of the Sony system. I can't use the CZ 24-70 and the 70-200G in the same shooting without noticing directly which pictures have been taken with which lens (and in that case it is a limitation). I own some lenses in pairs, for example the two 85mm f/1.4 or the 135 f/1.8 and the 135 STF, because I will chose one or the other depending on the subject.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 09, 2013, 11:31:13 am
Hi,

Two images one with the 80-200/2.8 other using the  24-70/2.8 ZA .

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Images/Zeissness2/Flower80-200mm_F2.8.jpg)

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Images/Zeissness2/Flower24-70mm_F2.8_ZA_SSM.jpg)

And here are two crops taken with a Zeiss macro Planar 120/4 and Sony SAL 70-400/4.5-5.6G
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Z120MPlanar/20130330-_DSC1201_center_crop.jpg)
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Z120MPlanar/20130330-_DSC1205_center_crop.jpg)

Image 1: Top Minolta 80-200/2.8 bottom SAL 24-70/2.8.

Image 2: Top SAL 24-70/2.8 bottom Hasselblad Macro Planar 120/4

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 09, 2013, 08:30:54 pm
Here is an interesting comparisson between an A900 with a Minolta Zoom vs a Hasselblad H 31 and a 150 prime.

http://www.dboyd.com/Photos_08/HasselbladvsSony/test@150mmvsBeercan/test.htm
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: FredBGG on April 09, 2013, 10:49:51 pm
Thanks ERIK, im trying to stay away from HDR. In your 100% crop, there seems to be some serious artificating/banding in the sky towards the clouds and sun

There are some times where a couple of exposures used in subtle HDR can be very useful as well as VR II stabalization for hand held HDR.

Just a snapshot on a night hike with the dogs. High ISO, 24-85mm. Three shots used. 2 for the main image and 1 for the moon exposure.
No tripod exposures 1/8th and 1/4s or there abouts. The Image stabalization helped keep the two shots aligned. two out of 4 tries remained aligned.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8546/8635642843_0ef1f890ea_c.jpg)
Night Sky Over Cold Canyon
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: alosurdo on April 09, 2013, 11:34:40 pm
Thank you for everyones assistance.

I have decided to go for the Phase One 645DF and P30+ Back.

It should be arriving any day, hopefully i will be pretty happy thought all signs point to yes so far.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 09, 2013, 11:39:55 pm
Hi,

I hope you find great satisfaction and that you share your experience!

Best regards
Erik


Thank you for everyones assistance.

I have decided to go for the Phase One 645DF and P30+ Back.

It should be arriving any day, hopefully i will be pretty happy thought all signs point to yes so far.
Title: Re: MF Digital newbie needs a little help please
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 11, 2013, 12:53:15 am
Good stuff!

Best regards
Erik

There are some times where a couple of exposures used in subtle HDR can be very useful as well as VR II stabalization for hand held HDR.

Just a snapshot on a night hike with the dogs. High ISO, 24-85mm. Three shots used. 2 for the main image and 1 for the moon exposure.
No tripod exposures 1/8th and 1/4s or there abouts. The Image stabalization helped keep the two shots aligned. two out of 4 tries remained aligned.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8546/8635642843_0ef1f890ea_c.jpg)
Night Sky Over Cold Canyon