Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: torger on April 03, 2013, 05:00:00 am
-
As some of you probably have seen I've had problems with my Leaf Aptus 75 in winter conditions. At first I had really severe problems so it was unusable under +5C. Then after a lot of trouble with Leaf dealers I finally got a full repair, replacing the E-box. It has then started to work much better. However, it is still unreliable in chilly temperatures.
Now it is hard to provoke an error at will though, it can work for 50 images in a row or more in -10C, and then it misses a image, locks up, makes a funny noise or other funny things. Often a reboot helps, sometimes it's just stuck and needs to warm up before starting to work again. This makes field work very frustrating when I can't trust the back. I've missed images due to this. The warmest condition I've had a failure in after repair is in +1C, that is within the official range which is 0 - 40C. Oh, it dropped the beep sound once in room temperature, but continued to work, got the beep sound back after reboot. One of those "funny things".
I've tried different batteries, different CF cards, different sync cables, still funny things happen now and then in cold temperatures. It seems like the errors is always in some way related to failure to write to the CF card (yes I have formatted the cards in the correct manner). I've attached an image (sorry it's poor) showing the error message when I try to delete an image when the back has become semi-locked up (sometimes it locks up completely so you can't navigate in the GUI either).
My Leaf dealer that handled the repair doesn't really respond to my questions except once every two weeks or so, which is a bit tough on my patience at this point. I've reported all this to them but have not yet had a reply.
My main question I have now is if an Aptus series back is no better than this, or if my back is still faulty after the repair. I have already spent a lot of time and money on this and I would not like to spend a lot more time to deal with the cumbersome Leaf support if there's no possibility to get this fixed in the end.
I've so far had different reports. Some say that the Aptus is very reliable, but I've got at least two reports of users saying that funny things do happen with this back, one said in general, one said outside 0-28C temperature range. The likely conclusion from that is that some of these backs are good, some are bad, ie the quality varies. If this is the case then the question is if Leaf cares if someone that got a bad back complains, or if they will refuse or are unable to fix the problem. I mean I got the E-box replaced, what more can they do? Maybe there's some poor soldering work related to the CF card contact, don't know if that is replaced with E-box or not.
My options are to complain more and try to get this fixed (it's now under warranty), or give this up, sell the back to someone living in warmer conditions and get a different brand. I like the Aptus and think it's a really good product and great for tech cameras, but I must have a digital back I can trust in the field.
(I'm having my eyes on Hasselblad as they should know about Swedish winter conditions (I'm in Sweden), and possibly it's easier to get support as they are actually located in Sweden.)
Comments?
-
as stated before I had +250.000 exposures on an original Aptus 75 and 22 - I have used it in -32C for full days, I live in Denmark, it's cold here as well, it was a very steady performer no errors - I can count on one hand the numbers of corrupt files - I wish I could say the same on the iQ160 - it's not bad either, here I just have to use two hands ;-)
/adam
-
My AFI II back has been in Amazon jungles, mountain cold and used at 15ºF without any issues. There is the odd moment when it hiccups, needing only a restart (typical camera:back interface), but rare. Any other issues are due to low battery levels. I find it quite reliable and would not hesitate to get another.
-
There are indeed numerous examples of solidly performing Aptus backs, but also a few reports of those that are not. This makes me suspect the the production has had varying quality, i e some units are good, some are less good.
Question is if Leaf will take responsibility for the less performing backs, or even if they can. When I first sent it in (when it was unusable below +5C) the dealer wanted to send it back without doing anything since they could not find any error despite my thorough description of the problem. I was firm in my decision to have it repaired though, and when it was sent to the Leaf factory they did find an error there, a bit unclear what (the repair spec is not very detailed) but something related to the CF if I remember correctly. The E-box pretty much replaces everything as far as I understood. If there still are parts of the CF card I/O circuit not replaced a good guess is that the major fault is there.
Or maybe the new E-box has the same type of problem as the old but to a lesser extent. That could be the case if there indeed are issues with varying quality.
I have suspected batteries too, but now I keep my batteries warm and even with fully loaded warm batteries and different batteries tested errors still occur. I have tested with different CF cards, both formatted with FAT32 and FAT16. I've done bad block scanning of the cards, no errors. Still fails with the back. As far as I can see all the bad failures have been related to not-being-able-to-write-to-CF, the rest I can pass and accept as rare "hickups".
If Leaf eventually manages to fix this problem I would not hesitate to get another back of this brand. But what I have seen from the support so far is not very impressive. Let us assume quality control is excellent and I have just had an enormous amount of bad luck and got a bad unit (no quality control is 100%), the support must still be able to resolve this type of issue so a buyer of their products can feel safe in their investment. It should not matter if you like me are using a few generations old digital back, one of the selling points of digital backs is that you can choose to stay with the back for a long time and thus make the investment pay for itself... but for this to be true the support must be working.
Some manufacturers can say like this: our official temperature range is 0-40C, if it works outside that range - good for you - if it does not we won't help you as it is up to our spec. As said I've had failures in +1C so it's not performing up to spec, but it is on the border, especially since I hear now that even the good ones have occasional "hickups", what's a hickup and what's a failure? I don't know how Leaf is in this context, and I'd rather not mess around with this issue for many more months just to find out that they won't fix it. If they refuse, or more likely claims that it works up to spec and I'm imagining things, there's not much I can do.
-
I think you might have a lemon. When I was shooting a leaf aptus 65 I had it out in the cold (-30*C) here in Edmonton, Canada. That back never failed to perform. I had all of 5 corrupt images with that back and I shot with it very frequently.
-
Hello,
Personally I think Yair as Leaf's representative should take over your case personally and get your problems resolved with Leaf as this is not doing there street creed any favourers.
Cheers
Simon
-
Hello,
Personally I think Yair as Leaf's representative should take over your case personally and get your problems resolved with Leaf as this is not doing there street creed any favourers.
Cheers
Simon
+1
-
Yair is a product manager and should not need to run support errands. I've now opened a support case at Phase One's site to see if I can get some attention.
What's difficult in this case is that it's an intermittent problem which could be of the type "we take no responsibility, you have to live with it", and what usually happens then is that you don't actually get that message but instead you end up in kafka-land, i e endless communication for months and nothing happens, except for growing frustration.
For that it would be nice to have a contact "on the inside" to give a forecast of how this support issue will develop, or hear about similar experiences.
So far it's clear that Leaf has issues with their support organization in Europe though. Either you get to a dealer that don't know Leaf gear (or even Leaf pricing), or you get to a dealer which has so little time that if you just have boring support requests it's dropped to the floor.
-
Oh, Phase One web support gives swift reply to questions, that's for sure!
I have attached the reply below, and it's about what I could expect, i e they take no responsibility if the back fails below 0C. So the case seems to be pretty doomed.
I think it can be worthwhile to know for any outdoor shooters that Leaf and Phase One don't care if their backs fail in typical outdoor working conditions, so you just need to hope that you get a good copy.
I think it's a bit unethical of them to brag about reliability in their marketing when it's all empty words >:( >:(.
I also think the first support case has been handled a bit unfair and without understanding of an outdoor photographer's working conditions, since I have stated from the beginning that I experience trouble in chilly weather from +5 and below freezing, and not anyone said that I could not expect it to work below +0C after repair. So now I have paid €2000+ to expand the usefulness of this back from +5C down to +0C. I'm not impressed >:(.
If the e-box replaces as much as it's said, I've got two lemons in a row. That feels more than a coincidence.
These type of things make people go on crusade, like Fred ;)... I'm not really there yet, but to say that I'm disappointed with Leaf and all the misleading marketing b*llsh*t I've got concerning reliability is an understatement >:( >:( >:(.
Hello,
I am sorry if there is a misunderstanding about the capabilities of the hardware. The unit you have listed has an operational temperature of "0°-40°C (32°-104°F), Humidity: 15%-80% RH (non-condensing)".
As you have stated you are shooting in temperatures of -10°C there is a large potential for improper operation. If you have experienced an error at 1°C then this is something we can focus on, however these errors only occur at that temperature AFTER the back has been subject to unsupported Operating Temperatures we cannot ensure it will perform properly until after it has been rebooted.
The hypothesis you have purposed regarding the CF card is highly unlikely. The entire board stack is replaced when an E-Box is replaced, the unit is basically brand new with the exception of the CCD when an E-Box replacement is performed. If there were an error with the circuitury you would experience it in all other operational temperatures, not just lower temperatures. The reason we cannot guarantee proper operation below 0°C is not due to soldering or contact changes, it is simply due to the electronic signal changes at extreme temperatures. A signal delay that is expected to be a value of X due to operational temperature resistance, at an extremely cold temperature is much, much faster and therefore certain signals cannot even be detected as they are present and then gone before detection is even possible. This is not something specific to the Aptus 75, it is a basic principle of electronics.
As we designate operational temperatures with the hardware, the fact that this occurs outside of those operational temperatures (aside from the one instance mentioned at +1°C) shows that your system is working "as good as it should" as this is what we can guarantee. Other user may claim that their units operate at colder temperatures but we could not possibly base the operational quality of your unit based ont he claims of other users. There are too many variables involved in such claims, including the truth behond those claims on top of perhaps completely different workflows.
Based on the information in this case, it is not conclusive that your repair has failed in any way. If you can quantify the error that was seen at +1°C we would be happy to continue investigation, however if the errors are only present when outside of the manufacture operating temperatures I am afraid that there is no cause for concern regarding an "improperly working unit".
I apologize for any misunderstandings regarding the operational limitations of the unit and look forward to recieving more relavent information with the reported error within operational limitations.
Kind Regards,
Phase One Support
-
When a customer buys a unit from us a dealer, especially when the unit has warranty (new or refurbished) we would have a great deal of flexibility to help the customer. Phase One and Leaf have always structured their network around dealers who can provide this level of attention and flexibility to their customers. If a customer of mine comes to me and says they want to use the back for X, Y, or Z the first thing I'm going to do is help them do testing of whatever backs are being considered in X, Y, or Z. This is the system that is set up (which some complain about) which provides an incredible capacity for a high-end experience and great customer support which engenders long-term customer loyalty.
Unfortunately when you buy a used back with no warranty, without dealer support, and without prior testing or evaluation there isn't much in the way of a safety net for you when you're technically outside of warranty/repair/operational coverage. The only person from whom you've bought something in this situation is a private individual.
I'm not trying to dance on your grave here; I've followed your story since the start and I feel a great deal of sympathy for you. I know that based on your location and budget it was hard to justify/attempt to buy a unit through a dealer or do testing in-situ before committing. You're in a rough spot and I feel badly about that.
As stated by many here, and on each posting you've made along your journey, there are many Aptus in service around the world in conditions equally challenging - performing without issue.
The way I see it you have three options:
- give up medium format (make sure to test whatever you switch to before making any decisions to make sure you'll be making a positive net change), sell the back
- upgrade the Aptus via a dealer to another back, whether a Phase P+, Leaf Credo under the proviso that you test your specific unit under the conditions that you shoot before making any commitment
- use your existing gear knowing that at a certain temperature range you are having problems
-
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not easily offended so you can dance all you want if you wish to ;)
Consider that the e-box has been replaced, I've effectively got a new back just as the support person says, shot count is still under 500. The back is effectively under warranty due to the extensive repair.
But despite that the company takes no responsibility. How should I protect myself against that? I cannot interpret this any other way than that Leaf and Phase One are not serious with their support. I got two lemons in a row, if that's just bad luck or Leaf quality is like this I don't know, but what I do know now is that if this happens they let their customers take the hit.
I will make some more noise though. I have not yet heard from my dealer, and I'm not sure about how Leaf/Phase One support organization works, maybe what I'm getting now is Phase One's f**k-the-customer-policy rather a than Leaf policy.
(I'm using DSLRs in parallel, I've never had reliability issues with those, and in the unlikely event of getting intermittent errors and a support mess they are so relatively cheap I can buy a new one. So yes if I was only in this for reliability it would be a no-brainer of course, but I really like to use my Linhof Techno, and it fits my creative process very well. If the issue remains unresolved the most likely scenario is that I'll sell the back to a photographer in warmer climate and buy into Hasselblad. I'll have to hold on to it for a year or two though due to financial reasons. First I'll see this issue to the bitter end, I'm not really sure this is it.)
-
Hi,
Cameras are normally specified to operate between 0-40C, quite true. I think it is also the specs for my Sony Alpha and the Phase One cameras. So most cameras are unusable outdoors about 25-50% of the year according to specification.
Interestingly, Phase One demonstrated that their cameras work at the temperature of dry ice, -79C if I recall it correctly. So what they said is that the cameras work well under zero C conditions.
I don't really buy the explanation about signal propagation times, I have heard about superconduction, but I believe it normally occours at very low temperatures. Obviously, Japanese cameras are built with so wide tolerances that they are not affected by the temperature dependent signal propagation times under zero degrees C but personally I would believe that signal propagation times would be pretty constant between sub zero and zero C.
Anyway what Phase is saying that it is normal for the equipment to fail as soon as environmental temperature goes below zero. Obviously, many devices still work under subzero conditions.
I feel that much of this makes little sens. The photographic industry should have a realistic specified temperature range, like -30 to 70 degrees C for professional equipment, and they should stand by that specification.
What they say now, is that our equipment should work from 0 to 40C, you may operate the equipment outside those parameters but you do that at your own peril.
Best regards
Erik
Thanks for the feedback. I'm not easily offended so you can dance all you want if you wish to ;)
Consider that the e-box has been replaced, I've effectively got a new back just as the support person says, shot count is still under 500. The back is effectively under warranty due to the extensive repair.
But despite that the company takes no responsibility. How should I protect myself against that? I cannot interpret this any other way than that Leaf and Phase One are not serious with their support. I got two lemons in a row, if that's just bad luck or Leaf quality is like this I don't know, but what I do know now is that if this happens they let their customers take the hit.
I will make some more noise though. I have not yet heard from my dealer, and I'm not sure about how Leaf/Phase One support organization works, maybe what I'm getting now is Phase One's f**k-the-customer-policy rather a than Leaf policy.
(I'm using DSLRs in parallel, I've never had reliability issues with those, and in the unlikely event of getting intermittent errors and a support mess they are so relatively cheap I can buy a new one. So yes if I was only in this for reliability it would be a no-brainer of course, but I really like to use my Linhof Techno, and it fits my creative process very well. If the issue remains unresolved the most likely scenario is that I'll sell the back to a photographer in warmer climate and buy into Hasselblad. I'll have to hold on to it for a year or two though due to financial reasons. First I'll see this issue to the bitter end.)
-
I also note that the support engineer in our continued discussion says that the Aptus open vents and fan is a problem and makes it perform less good in cold conditions, and that a passively cooled Credo (which has the exact same 0-40C official range) is more likely to work. The exact suspicion I had before I committed to this back, but what did Yair and everyone else say? That there is no problem with vents and fan. I guess that was just market speak.
If it really is just temperature that breaks it, as it seems to be, then I may look into extreme temperature solutions (heat packs etc) as a short term solution, as I don't see an upgrade feasible right now. If there was a way to turn off the fan I could simply put tape over the vents and it would probably work a lot better. I have noted that it seems to fail quicker in windy conditions (ie cold air blowing through the vents in additions to the fan working at full speed as it always does in tech cam mode).
An other interesting aspect that has arised in the discussion with support is that they claim to use standard low cost components to keep down price, and that can lead to less reliable behavior outside standard temperature range than typical mass-market products which may have custom fine-tuned components. I find it fascinating that a back that costed $30K originally must be designed with low cost components, I was thinking(hoping) that one would be using military grade components with overkill specs as it would do so little on total cost anyway.
The support person is sweet, giving long and thorough responses to my questions, I can't shoot the messenger, he/she is just delivering what the true company policy is, rather than what is communicated through marketing/sales channel.
The story so far:
Question: is the Leaf Aptus a reliable product, even in colder temperatures?
Answer by Leaf marketing/sales: yes
Answer by Leaf/Phase One support: no
-
Hi,
My guess is that the 0-40C environmental spec is fairly typical for the industry. I just checked Nikon's spec for D4 and they also state 0-40C. So if you shoot the winter Olympics and turn to Nikon Professional Services for assistance they just say: "Sorry pal, the equipment you have is not intended to be used below zero C!"?
Let's make just clear. I have nothing against Leaf, Phase One or the MF industry. But I'm a bit pissed of by unreasonable environmental specs.
What are the environmental specifications for latest IQ200 series?
Best regards
Erik
I also note that the support engineer in our continued discussion says that the Aptus open vents and fan is a problem and makes it perform less good in cold conditions, and that a passively cooled Credo (which has the exact same 0-40C official range) is more likely to work. The exact suspicion I had before I committed to this back, but what did Yair and everyone else say? That there is no problem with vents and fan. I guess that was just market speak.
If it really is just temperature that breaks it, as it seems to be, then I may look into extreme temperature solutions (heat packs etc) as a short term solution, as I don't see an upgrade feasible right now. If there was a way to turn off the fan I could simply put tape over the vents and it would probably work a lot better. I have noted that it seems to fail quicker in windy conditions (ie cold air blowing through the vents in additions to the fan working at full speed as it always does in tech cam mode).
An other interesting aspect that has arised in the discussion with support is that they claim to use standard low cost components to keep down price, and that can lead to less reliable behavior outside standard temperature range than typical mass-market products which may have custom fine-tuned components. I find it fascinating that a back that costed $30K originally must be designed with low cost components, I was thinking(hoping) that one would be using military grade components with overkill specs as it would do so little on total cost anyway.
The support person is sweet, giving long and thorough responses to my questions, I can't shoot the messenger, he/she is just delivering what the true company policy is, rather than what is communicated through marketing/sales channel.
The story so far:
Question: is the Leaf Aptus a reliable product, even in colder temperatures?
Answer by Leaf marketing/sales: yes
Answer by Leaf/Phase One support: no
-
My guess is that the 0-40C environmental spec is fairly typical for the industry. I just checked Nikon's spec and they also state 0-40C. So if you shoot the winter Olympics and turn to Nikon Professional Services for assistance they just say: "Sorry pal, the equipment you have is not intended to be used below zero C!"?
Are you sure they will say that? I know that 0-40C is the typical, my Canon says the same. Haven't met any pro DSLR shooter that would think it is normal with failure in subzero temperatures. A photojournalist in northern countries could not use it as a tool if it would fail in -1C. I think it's the same with weather proofing, it's not really specified but over time a certain standard has come to be expected, and the manufacturers cannot deviate from that or it would be a suicide for the brand. Of course the japanese make field tests in subzero temperatures.
I would not be that surprised if you are right though, but you never hear about it due to the very high quality and wide tolerances in the gear they sell.
Note that I do not shoot in extreme temperatures, I'm a comfortable guy and haven't tried to shoot with it in colder than -15C, hardly considered extreme by any nature photographer. The oil in the gears of the Linhof camera gets so stiff in colder temperatures than that so it becomes hard to work with anyway.
Now when I'm in contact with a support person that gives straight answers I have got numerous reasons why the Leaf Aptus and Leaf Aptus-II series never should be recommended to a photographer working in subzero conditions:
- Open vent and fan is good in hot weather, but makes it too cold in cold weather, possibly provoking erratic behaviour
- On a tech cam the fan is always running full speed making it even more sensitive to cold weather (I'd like to talk to the person who made that design decision)
- Standard low cost components are being used to keep down manufacturing costs which makes tolerances lower than can be expected for finely tuned mass-market products
- And the most obvious reason -- if you do get problems, Leaf/Phase One won't help you
Maybe the tech cam case is significantly worse, due to the full-speed fan. As far as I know all reports I've got from users successfully using it in cold weather is on cameras which provide temperature control of the fan. I'm looking into if there is a way to turn off the fan, or even sending it in to have a on/off switch mounted on it. It's so incredibly dumb to have the fan draw power and kill the back when it's -10C outside...
-
Very interesting and bad news. I work in Sweden as well and this is normal conditions up here. Nothing out of the ordinary.
I will meet with a Phase one rep tomorrow to discuss a upgrade to a IQ260 and this will be on the top of my list
-
Hi,
I think they have an NPS service shop at the Winter Olympics. I don't think they say that environmental limit above freezing point apply, but I don't know.
I have been shooting at < -15C with my Sony Alpha 99 recently and my only problems were fingertips and toes going cold.
Had Minolta/Sony/Pentax gear since 1970, SRT-101, SR2, XE-1, XD-7, XM, Dynax 9000, Dynax 7000, Pentax 67, NikonFE, Dynax 9Xi, Dimage 7, A2, Dimage 7D, Sony Alpha 100/700/900/55/77/99. All worked fine, except the XD-7 that was error prone. I had a minor repair on the A2 and had a bayonet replaced on a 80-200/2.8 zoom after something like 20 years usage. But, I guess I am easy on equipment.
Best regards
Erik
Are you sure they will say that? I know that 0-40C is the typical, my Canon says the same. Haven't met any pro DSLR shooter that would think it is normal with failure in subzero temperatures. A photojournalist in northern countries could not use it as a tool if it would fail in -1C. I think it's the same with weather proofing, it's not really specified but over time a certain standard has come to be expected, and the manufacturers cannot deviate from that or it would be a suicide for the brand. Of course the japanese make field tests in subzero temperatures.
I would not be that surprised if you are right though, but you never hear about it due to the very high quality and wide tolerances in the gear they sell.
Note that I do not shoot in extreme temperatures, I'm a comfortable guy and haven't tried to shoot with it in colder than -15C, hardly considered extreme by any nature photographer. The oil in the gears of the Linhof camera gets so stiff in colder temperatures than that so it becomes hard to work with anyway.
Now when I'm in contact with a support person that gives straight answers I have got numerous reasons why the Leaf Aptus and Leaf Aptus-II series never should be recommended to a photographer working in subzero conditions:
- Open vent and fan is good in hot weather, but makes it too cold in cold weather, possibly provoking erratic behaviour
- On a tech cam the fan is always running full speed making it even more sensitive to cold weather (I'd like to talk to the person who made that design decision)
- Standard low cost components are being used to keep down manufacturing costs which makes tolerances lower than can be expected for finely tuned mass-market products
- And the most obvious reason -- if you do get problems, Leaf/Phase One won't help you
Maybe the tech cam case is significantly worse, due to the full-speed fan. As far as I know all reports I've got from users successfully using it in cold weather is on cameras which provide temperature control of the fan. I'm looking into if there is a way to turn off the fan, or even sending it in to have a on/off switch mounted on it. It's so incredibly dumb to have the fan draw power and kill the back when it's -10C outside...
-
I also note that the support engineer in our continued discussion says that the Aptus open vents and fan is a problem and makes it perform less good in cold conditions, and that a passively cooled Credo (which has the exact same 0-40C official range) is more likely to work. The exact suspicion I had before I committed to this back, but what did Yair and everyone else say? That there is no problem with vents and fan. I guess that was just market speak.
.....
The story so far:
Question: is the Leaf Aptus a reliable product, even in colder temperatures?
Answer by Leaf marketing/sales: yes
Answer by Leaf/Phase One support: no
Don't expect Phase One marketing to tell things how they are.
Here is their press release about the release of the DF+
COPENHAGEN, September 17, 2012 — Phase One, the world’s leader in open-platform, high-end camera systems and solutions, today announced the world’s most versatile camera platform for high-end photography.
With support for more than 50 different digital medium format digital backs and 80 different lenses from leading brands, and featuring a new high-powered rechargeable Li-ion battery enabling up to 10,000 captures on a single charge, the new Phase One 645DF+ camera sets a new standard for professional performance.
The Phase One 645DF+ builds on the success of previous generations of the camera and has undergone a complete overhaul of all moving parts to produce a camera with the highest uptime in the market of high-end photography.
and here is the experience of a couple of users:
I had very bad experience with DF+
1st : very slow focus, will not lock even outdoor.
2nd : Defective viewfinder out of the box
3rd : Demo unit so I can play around, much better than first body.
4th : finally open my 3rd unit out of the box, focus beat all 3 previous copy. faster. So I bought it.
I just found out last week that my body produces softer images than the demo unit 645 DF my dealer uses. It is very obvious in side by side comparison. Micro adjust will not fix it because it does nothing at all.
I am sending it for service.
So after 4 experiences with DF+ body, my conclusion is that phase one has very bad QC problem!!
another user...
One issue is, I have to setup the custom fuctions I want every time I use the camera. When the camera is off for a while, it forgets them.
The other thing I've found is, the autofocus assist beam can actually come on during an exposure. Then the red beam on the subject would ruin the picture, like this example:
(http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/9/2/4/9/_643995.jpg)
-
Very interesting and bad news. I work in Sweden as well and this is normal conditions up here. Nothing out of the ordinary.
I will meet with a Phase one rep tomorrow to discuss a upgrade to a IQ260 and this will be on the top of my list
I don't know if you know/remember what happened with the IQ180. It failed in cold weather when it was new. They do lab tests and brag about that (maybe you've seen youtube videos), but the problem is that don't do any field tests in cold weather, so what happened in this case was that battery failed after just a few minutes. When users reported it some got a similar reply as I from the support, ie it was only guaranteed between 0-40C and they would take no responsibility for consequences of using it in subzero temperatures.
However, in this case it turned out to be possible to fix in firmware, and after the firmware fix the back runs well in cold weather as far as I know. If it had been a design error like with the Aptus / Aptus-II and was not possible to fix in firmware the customers would have to take the hit.
It's normal that low volume products like this don't see as much testing as mass market 35mm camera so I think it's perfectly acceptable that users of new products stumble upon problems. However, this should be fully compensated with support you can trust. I can't say that my trust in Phase One and Leaf concerning supporting outdoor photographers has been strengthened by this episode.
If I was a professional photographer and I would buy new and my gear just had to work in -15C I think I would write a contract with the dealer so they would be forced to take it back if it would not work. I know I would be furious if I would have been one of those users that had upgraded from the solid P65+ to IQ180 and then get cold failures and hear support say that it's all on my responsibility.
-
Hi,
Stefan Steib wrote that a lot of problems may depend on battery chargers not charging optimally. You cannot operate the camera on external power?
Sometimes it can happen that voltage drops when a device draws high current.
Best regards
Erik
I don't know if you know/remember what happened with the IQ180. It failed in cold weather when it was new. They do lab tests and brag about that (maybe you've seen youtube videos), but the problem is that don't do any field tests in cold weather, so what happened in this case was that battery failed after just a few minutes. When users reported it some got a similar reply as I from the support, ie it was only guaranteed between 0-40C and they would take no responsibility for consequences of using it in subzero temperatures.
However, in this case it turned out to be possible to fix in firmware, and after the firmware fix the back runs well in cold weather as far as I know. If it had been a design error like with the Aptus / Aptus-II and was not possible to fix in firmware the customers would have to take the hit.
It's normal that low volume products like this don't see as much testing as mass market 35mm camera so I think it's perfectly acceptable that users of new products stumble upon problems. However, this should be fully compensated with support you can trust. I can't say that my trust in Phase One and Leaf concerning supporting outdoor photographers has been strengthened by this episode.
If I was a professional photographer and I would buy new and my gear just had to work in -15C I think I would write a contract with the dealer so they would be forced to take it back if it would not work. I know I would be furious if I would have been one of those users that had upgraded from the solid P65+ to IQ180 and then get cold failures and hear support say that it's all on my responsibility.
-
Not too put a simple face on this, but in very cold weather, I get about 20 minutes from a single battery, also depending on their age. The double batteries (third party) are better in this regard.
As you know, the Leaf gets a bit funky sometimes when the battery power is low. The simple message of "not enough power" only happens sometimes - other times it can hang up, fixed by a fresh battery and a restart.
I'm sure this isn't your problem, but....
-
Stefan Steib wrote that a lot of problems may depend on battery chargers not charging optimally. You cannot operate the camera on external power?
Sometimes it can happen that voltage drops when a device draws high current.
Yes I can operate on external power, so it is an extra test I can do, but the errors don't appear at will so easily so if I'm unlucky I may test for a few hours without problem. I may do such a test anyway, I don't think it will do any difference. I have suspected batteries before, but as it works fine in room temperature, and I have tested with several batteries (also a big one) and have kept batteries warm and swapped (warm) batteries when failures occur and failures still occur after that I no longer think it is battery-related. Could be some battery power feed circuit that can handle low temp but I find that unlikely.
-
Not too put a simple face on this, but in very cold weather, I get about 20 minutes from a single battery, also depending on their age. The double batteries (third party) are better in this regard.
As you know, the Leaf gets a bit funky sometimes when the battery power is low. The simple message of "not enough power" only happens sometimes - other times it can hang up, fixed by a fresh battery and a restart.
I'm sure this isn't your problem, but....
Yes I've noted the funky behavior at low battery. Before e-box exchange it was really bad, but now it is better, only sometimes it gets funky at low batteries. Yair claims that "there is no low battery behavior", ie that it should never be funky, but I've had enough reports of funkiness on low battery so I think it is normal for this back. (I get cold weather failures even with full and warm batteries too though.)
Yesterday I was out shooting in -1C to +1C, it's late winter here which means outdoor temperature is typically around 0C. I got no failures, but a funky thing happened: one picture took a very long time to write to the card, and then the back went silent, ie no beeps after shot picture. This funny thing has happened once for me in +20C indoors too. I've heard one other user talk about this bug, so I think it is "normal", although it never happened on my previous e-box.
So far my best guess of the true behavior of this product is that:
- It's a bit buggy, funny things can happen especially on low battery, and in rare occassions funny things can happen (like dropped beep sound) with full battery.
- It's a bit different between backs how buggy they are, some are more buggy than others.
- It does not handle cold weather well due to low tolerance in the electronics combined with active cooling.
- As components vary in tolerance it varies between backs how tolerant against cold weather they are, the poor ones get problems in quite mild freezing temperatures, or even within the lower part of the official 0-40C range.
- Worst case for cold weather is using it on a technical camera as the fan then spins full speed all the time, likelihood to work well in cold temperature is best on SLR bodies when the fan is temperature-controlled
If this is true, the back I have now works as a normal Leaf Aptus back, and I should simply not expect more, I just put my bets on the wrong horse. I'm trying to get this nailed down with Leaf, so I can eventually sell this back with good conscious knowing that it's not faulty, it's just not a back suitable for cold weather or those that need absolute reliable operation (ie no funny things happening at all, regardless of battery level etc). If Leaf still continues to say that the back is reliable and handle cold weather well I want them to replace the e-box once more so I get something that works, it's either that or confess that the back really is no better than this.
Phase One web support has kind of already said that it is no better than this (the sometimes funny behavior on low battery and room temp has not yet been confirmed though), but I'd like to have it from a Leaf official since I cannot know for sure if Phase One web support isn't trash-talking Leaf products, as they think their own products are a bit better :-).
-
As much as I love medium format digital, I have never seen such poor reliability issues.
That's with Leaf, Hasselblad and Mamiya. The Phase P25 back I had worked perfectly and that arrived from Iceland in a Jiffy bag.
-
Finally got in contact with a Leaf representative, which in opposite to Phase One web support states that it indeed should work, and provided a strong list of tech cam users which work in tough conditions, including cold using Aptus backs. Indeed seems unlikely that the back could be behaving as erratically as mine for all those without noticing. Still waiting for a reply from my dealer but as it seems the back will go back to the factory once more for an additional look. That somebody at Leaf shows interest in that the back should behave in cold weather is a great plus and feels comforting. In the end it will be the result that counts though, we'll see how it goes.
-
Reliability and withstanding extreme temperatures are not exactly the same thing.
Leaf backs are rated 0-40c, but measuring temperature is a complicated thing.
How did you measure the +1c?
If the back is in negative temperatures for a while, it can take it some time to recover from that.
Your measurement of +1c can be measured by another instrument as -1c.
You should understand that when you are standing right next to the edge of the range, problem could happen.
Not working at +5c is a real problem. Not working at +1c could result from many things, and not necessarily a problem.
For low temperatures, the good solution can be to keep an external battery connected by a cable and held inside your coat.
It would make sense that the fan is causing these problems (your irritation about what they told you in advance on that issue, is quite justified IMO).
You can block the fan or stop it manually. I think that would be safer than a heat pack. Wrapping a wool headband around the back could solve the issue.
Phase/Leaf can sometimes be quite arrogant, refuse to apologize for very obvious mistakes, and stick by it no matter what, as if for principle.
Still, my buddies who use Hasselblad have much worse complaints - i.e. repeated breakdowns of equipment in completely normal conditions, and ridiculous inability to fix problems. I've only had one problem with a Leaf back - and old beat down rental, and it was fixed within one day.
Then I had loose mounting teeth on a back just on the day warranty expired, and they fixed it for free anyway.
I've had problems around +40c, but I accept that if I am next to the range limits, then these types of problems can occur.
-
Hi,
The problem is that the part of the world where Anders Torger lives has below zero temperatures 5 months of the year.
Now, photographic equipment seems to be specified between 0C and +40C. Nevertheless, it is an expectation that photographic equipment should work reliably at subzero temperatures, else we would not have images from outdoors sports in Winter Olympics. In addition, Phase One demonstrated that their stuff works at -79C in a well published video.
So, specifications say that you do use the stuff below zero C at your own peril, but expectation is that yo can use them in non extreme winter conditions.
I could also add that I was shooting SLRs and DSLRs for 43 years, without any failing because of weather. No, I am not a very abrasive kind of fellow, but still, my shooting gear has seen both skyfalls and temperatures below -20C.
Best regards
Erik
Reliability and withstanding extreme temperatures are not exactly the same thing.
Leaf backs are rated 0-40c, but measuring temperature is a complicated thing.
How did you measure the +1c?
If the back is in negative temperatures for a while, it can take it some time to recover from that.
Your measurement of +1c can be measured by another instrument as -1c.
You should understand that when you are standing right next to the edge of the range, problem could happen.
Not working at +5c is a real problem. Not working at +1c could result from many things, and not necessarily a problem.
For low temperatures, the good solution can be to keep an external battery connected by a cable and held inside your coat.
It would make sense that the fan is causing these problems (your irritation about what they told you in advance on that issue, is quite justified IMO).
You can block the fan or stop it manually. I think that would be safer than a heat pack. Wrapping a wool headband around the back could solve the issue.
Phase/Leaf can sometimes be quite arrogant, refuse to apologize for very obvious mistakes, and stick by it no matter what, as if for principle.
Still, my buddies who use Hasselblad have much worse complaints - i.e. repeated breakdowns of equipment in completely normal conditions, and ridiculous inability to fix problems. I've only had one problem with a Leaf back - and old beat down rental, and it was fixed within one day.
Then I had loose mounting teeth on a back just on the day warranty expired, and they fixed it for free anyway.
I've had problems around +40c, but I accept that if I am next to the range limits, then these types of problems can occur.
-
Well, I live in central Israel where the temperatures are 0-40c almost all the time, and Leaf plant is 10km away, so it's easier for me :)
It's quite true that you expect a camera to work in extreme weather, even if it is not guaranteed.
I've never had any temperature problems with the many Canon 1D/1Ds units I had, in any conditions whatsoever.
I was quite surprised when my first Leaf it stopped working one day, and then realized that I was in 45c heat.
But it's easy to understand that Leaf is not as rugged as Canon 1D.
For rugged and extreme you want Phase One, although Leaf deny this vehemently whenever asked.
They were afraid to admit this in the past as they didn't want to lose the field users segment.
But now with the Credo out, I think they can openly admit that an Aptus in extreme weather is a risky bet.
Hi,
The problem is that the part of the world where Anders Torger lives has below zero temperatures 5 months of the year.
Now, photographic equipment seems to be specified between 0C and +40C. Nevertheless, it is an expectation that photographic equipment should work reliably at subzero temperatures, else we would not have images from outdoors sports in Winter Olympics. In addition, Phase One demonstrated that their stuff works at -79C in a well published video.
So, specifications say that you do use the stuff below zero C at your own peril, but expectation is that yo can use them in non extreme winter conditions.
I could also add that I was shooting SLRs and DSLRs for 43 years, without any failing because of weather. No, I am not a very abrasive kind of fellow, but still, my shooting gear has seen both skyfalls and temperatures below -20C.
Best regards
Erik
-
Hi,
I wouldn't exactly call temperatures below zero extreme, here in Nyköping it was below zero from early December to end of last week.
The other end, I don't experience it that often :-) I guess it is outside my environmental specs anyway.
Best regards
Erik
-
I know it's true that +1 (air temperature measurement) could possibly be -1, but not too likely in this case as the temperature was quite stable that day. It's on the edge of a 0-40C rating, but a camera that has so poor tolerances that it fails right at the edge is not well-designed.
While Phase One web support openly say that Aptus and Aptus-II are risky bets, when I recently came in contact with an "old" Leaf representative and told this, he still denied it and said that Aptus is reliable in cold weather and my back is most likely faulty (they want to test themselves of course) and should be sent in for re-repair under warranty. My dealer is not exactly reacting fast though so despite this message I'm still waiting for instructions from the dealer of what to do.
Now the weather has become warmer here, so I will probably not have any more problems until September/October, so if I do send it in again it will take some time before I can verify if they've managed to fix it. I do hope professional users get faster service than I do, which they probably do. Coming as an amateur with an old Aptus 75 and not wanting to upgrade I guess is not the way to make oneself popular :). I have paid good money for repair now though, so I expect to get some help...
-
I agree with all except this: "a camera that has so poor tolerances that it fails right at the edge is not well-designed"
These older backs were clearly designed with indoor studio users in mind.
As an indoor studio user, they are perfect for me and many others.
Therefore I don't think you can say they are poorly designed.
You can definitely say their marketing is wanting, since they keep insisting that the Aptus backs are well suited for cold weather.
-
I agree with all except this: "a camera that has so poor tolerances that it fails right at the edge is not well-designed"
These older backs were clearly designed with indoor studio users in mind.
As an indoor studio user, they are perfect for me and many others.
Therefore I don't think you can say they are poorly designed.
You can definitely say their marketing is wanting, since they keep insisting that the Aptus backs are well suited for cold weather.
Sure I can agree with you, if they truly are indoor products the performance of my current back is surely acceptable (although I've had one strange issue in room temperature too), but I'm not sure that such a product that's likely to fail at ~0 would be marked as 0-40C, a more suitable rating for my backs current performance would probably be something like 10-40C (I have not tested warm temperatures).
I don't know who to believe in this case though, my Leaf representative stubbornly claims that it's a product made to support outdoor use in colder weather. So I'll wait and see what the result will be.
I'll not be too disappointed if it ends up with that it is a 10-40C back, then I'll just sell it eventually to someone that does not have the same need for outdoor performance as I have. But then I'd like to hear from an official Leaf representative that the back truly is not better than this so I know I sell a newly fully serviced fully working back and can get the appropriate price for that.
The worst case is if Leaf continues to claim that Aptus should work great in cold temperatures but fails to get my back working, which is the current state. But it ain't over until it's over.
-
It's a gray area, as for every user who's had cold weather problems, there are three who swear they never had.
If they replaced the entire internal structure, then your back should be as good as new, and I trust their support knows what they're saying there.
Maybe your cold weather is more windy than the cold weather users who report no problems.
I still would try a simple solution of wrapping a wool band or scarf around the sides of the back, which should effectively counter the wind and fan effects.
-
I still would try a simple solution of wrapping a wool band or scarf around the sides of the back, which should effectively counter the wind and fan effects.
That is exactly what I will do if I still have problems next winter and decide to keep the back (which I otherwise like very much). It's not likely I'll have more cold weather issues this season though as its becoming warm. I'll probably report of any success/failure then :)
-
Also the second idea - in case you are using batteries:
Batteries can fail in cold weather.
You can take one battery and one charger, hollow them out and make an extension, so that you power the back form a battery inside your coat.
Or any other battery oriented solution: http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11943
I wouldn't part with this back so soon.
I know when the company gives you some BS, then you feel you want to "get them back", but I don't think you'll be happier with a Hasselblad.
I've had my share of difficulties with Leaf backs, but once I've gotten the hang of it, they're well worth the trouble, and certainly can't be beaten for the same price.
-
I don't think it's batteries, I have kept them warm, attach them in the last minute and I still can get failures. But I may look into one such solution anyway at some point.
I'd be happier with a back that works in cold weather without fuzz, brand doesn't matter. I can't drive 150km with the car and then hike for 3 hours, set up the camera and watch it fail.
It would be nice with a back so reliable that you wouldn't know if support was good or bad, as you wouldn't need to contact them :)
I've used a Hasselblad CF22 which had no cold weather issues (fan-cooled as well). However I'm aware that there's variation between copies. There are those using Aptuses in cold weather successfully. Possibly there are Hasselblad backs that fails in cold weather, although I haven't heard about it (a lot about failing H bodies though, almost just by looking at them). If it would be Hasselblad I'd look primarily into CFV-50. Leaf unfortunately does not have a good upgrade option sensor-wise after the 33 megapixel, it's then the 56 with the strange format, or more current fullframe backs but those are out of my price range.
It's not likely that I'd get another 33-39 megapixel back, then I'd rather drop down to 22 for a while until I find an attractive deal in the 50-60 range which is where I'd like to be in the long-term.
-
I just looked in my mailbox to see how quickly my support issues are dealt with. From the first contact with the current dealer until I got the back repaired (or "repaired" I shall say) back to me it took three months. Before that I'd messed around with a "local" dealer in six weeks before I realized that his pricing was crazy and not really familiar with Leaf gear at all. Now I'm three weeks into dealing with the current issue. 99.9% of the time is waiting of course, 0.099% is complaining out of frustration in my threads on this forum, and 0.001% is actually progress. For the utmost inefficiency three countries are involved, Germany, Denmark and Israel, with seemingly weeks of delays in each.
I wonder if my case is unique, or if support this slow is part of the medium format experience :D
-
I've had a couple of problems with Leaf equipment, and each one was dealt with within 1 day.
My suggestion to you - contact Leaf directly and not through any dealer.
They have phone numbers, and they will talk to you if you call them.
They will be able and willing to facilitate a quick resolution.
They will instruct you what to do through the dealer.
Going strictly through channels and waiting for each channel to go into action after it gets an interrupt from another channel - and involving 3-4 different entities - that type of process is prone to excessive delays.
-
Finally the dealer got back to me with a decision and it's going back to them again to re-check the repair. Courier picking up the package tomorrow. The amount of money I've paid in insured postage is not insignificant :-)
I've included in the package a written very elaborate description of the errors that occurs and in what conditions, I hope that will be carried all the way to the factory in Israel. Since my last update I've had failures in +4C. I haven't really tested the range +4C to room temperature as it has not been those temperatures outside since I got the back, so maybe it will fail in +10C or even +15C too, although I find it unlikely (even the previous e-box worked well in those temperatures).
It shall be interesting to see what they do, if I get yet another e-box. As there are users that use them in cold conditions successfully and Leaf claims that it should work I guess they have to replace e-box over and over again until I get one of those units that works :-)
-
Be warned: this is my own little thread of frustration :)
The back has been away some time now (I messed up with the address first, so a few days lost is on me), it's coming back to me this week though, about five weeks since I sent it away for re-repair under warranty.
I've got the report that they haven't done anything to fix the problem though, so it was just in vain.
So I'm stuck.
Leaf officially claims that it works in cold weather (my can fail even within the official 0-40 range), mine does not work, but they (the Leaf factory) still claim that there is no error with it. My guess is that they do not have any testing equipment to actually test a back in chilly temperatures, so they have just ignored my very long and detailed error description and tested it in room temperature (where it works as said in my description) and that's it.
Something must happen in this issue so I can come to rest, either they fix it, or Leaf officially says that the marketing was all b*llshit, there's sample variation and if you're unlucky you get a back which actually doesn't work even in the 0-40 range and then we can't help you. However, it would be nice to get back the lost €2150+VAT for the meaningless "repair" then.
I'm not very happy with Leaf now. >:( I hope this can change though, if there's will at Leaf to fix the problem and they actually do it eventually I'll be happy.
-
that sucks. >:(
i guess if you were a doe-eyed fan willing to ride the trade-in cash-cow upgrade path it would be all smiles and handshakes from the dealer/manufacturer.
maybe the best thing to do is cut your losses and sell the back with the caveat that it has issues at low temps but is passed fit by Leaf. there are probably potential customers who wouldn't take the back out of a studio or who live in hot countries
-
Yep, I'll have two certificates from Leaf claiming it is error-free :)
It's summer here now though so there's a few trouble-free months and I'll enjoy the back during that time.
I have two basic alternatives, 1) come up with a homebrew temperature isolation collar so the back works reliably enough in chilly/cold conditions and live with it, 2) sell it to a user that does not need cold weather performance.
I'd like to sell it as I'm getting tired of this sh*t, but I need to be a bit smart too, selling when I have the opportunity to get a new back. Upgrading to the latest new stuff is outside my budget.
I'll be a pain in the butt for Leaf for some while first though, I don't give up that easily. If they can't fix the problem a refund of the largely meaningless repair would make me satisfied. That together with selling it would give me quite good reach to get something else from a hopefully more reliable brand. It's a bit sad though, because I've learnt to like the Aptus user interface. If it just could be reliable in my working conditions...
Just some honesty would make me happier. The biggest source of frustration is that Leaf officially stubbornly claims that their Aptus is reliable in cold temperatures, but when you get problems they won't help you out, just causing you to spend a lot of time and money.
-
Torger,
If there was a way to turn off the fan I could simply put tape over the vents and it would probably work a lot better.
What about the following:
If the only measure you take is to block the vents then it is likely that the problem will recur because despite the measure, the back will be at ambient temperature. Ideally you want the back electronics as warm as possible, since reliability is known to exist at elevated temperatures.
It may be awkward, but if you were to carry the back on your person as you do your batteries, then the back will be warm. Of course it will rapidly cool when exposed to the environment. However, if the vents are covered then the fan will circulate only the internal air volume, which will be relatively warm at the time the back is switched on.
With the vents blocked the back normally will begin to heat up. However, given the low ambient temperature, a temperature gradient will exist through the back and will help to dissipate heat from it. It may be that the temperature gradient is large enough for the net effect to be a gradual reduction in temperature of the back internal volume, or it may be that the temperature gradient is not large enough and the back gradually heats up to the point whereby (hopefully!) it shuts down to prevent internal damage from overheating, albeit the latter intuitively strikes me as being unlikely.
The point is that even if the back still fails from reaching too low or high a temperature, the act of taping the vents may help to extend the time the back is operable.
-
Thanks for the tip, may be doing something of that if this does not sort out in the end.
I've been communicating with my dealer, Phase One web support, and Leaf directly more or less in parallel which makes stuff a little bit confusing. P1 web support has been most negative, then the dealer, while Leaf has actually been helpful. Problem is that you can't really deal with them directly but most go through the other channels and then you get other more negative messages. So when you feel good about getting re-assuring messages from Leaf and send your back away you then get back negative messages from the dealer. Arrgggh!
Since my outburst of frustration yesterday I've got more feedback from Leaf directly and 1) they actually did do a freezer test which unfortunately did not provoke the error (which is not that surprising, in the best cases I've shot ~70 frames in a row in -15C without error, but when out in the field for 1-4 hours I get some sort of failure about 6-7 out of 10 times which of course makes it impossible to work with, imagine hiking for a few hours to get to the spot you want to make the shot, and then the back refuses to work!), and 2) they're prepared to look into it some more and suggested an arrangement for a loaner back meanwhile (depends on time it will take if it will be necessary for me). That's more my kind of service!
Leaf still continues to show that they want to take responsibility for their gear and claims, which certainly is the right thing to do and they should have credit for that. If they manage to deliver in the end I'll be happy, and my upgrade path can then continue to be Aptus (I've been looking at Hasselblad CFV-50 or Aptus-II 10 for a possible next back, to be able to go with an Aptus-II this must sort out though, or else I won't dare to go for an Aptus back again).
-
Torger,
Since my outburst of frustration yesterday I've got more feedback from Leaf directly and...2) they're prepared to look into it some more and suggested an arrangement for a loaner back meanwhile...
If Leaf has the back for a reasonable length of time and tests it several times at sub zero temperature then the liklihood of an error occurring while the back is in their posession should be high, which of course is exactly what you want. I wish you all the best.
-
Just had my eMotion 75LV returned after repair from Sinar. Everything in perfect shape. Wonderful company. Rarely any problems and if there are, their service has been exemplary. Highly recommended.
Backs at low temperature. About a year ago I complained about my Hy6 malfunctioning at low temperature. I was wrong. Not the camera but the batteries were at fault. These can be quite tricky. So far two of my Hy6 batteries do not work anymore, one dating back to the time of introduction of the camera and another recent one.
There is a Chinese seller offering these batteries and chargers on ebay. They appear too thick for the backs, but they work perfect with the Hy6 itself. Never had any problems with these. Highly recommended.
-
I think there is one other issue which may be highly relevant here which is not being discussed in this thread. Intermittent and unspecific faults in electrical and electronic equipment used in certain conditions is often a result of temporary or partial interference with electrical connections. This is more often than not a function of moisture - usually from condensation - rather than temperature directly. Note that Leaf's specifications quoted above are for a particular temperature range, and then it says "(non-condensing)". These are absolutely key words.
Condensation results from a change in temperature - not of any particular temperature per se. This may well also explain variations in reliability between certain individual backs, depending on how much corrosion in electrical connections has built up during use. This corrosion in modern electronic equipment need not be visible to the naked eye to be significant - the low voltages and currents used can be highly susceptible to very small interferences at a microscopic scale. This is why a fresh battery can often cure a problem - it can push current through a small resistance which might stop a partially discharged battery. However, if the equipment is being subjected to repeated significant environmental changes there may well be cumulative effects.
Very cold equipment brought suddenly into a warm interior will be subjected to a severe moisture shock as a direct result of the temperature change. It is therefore important to protect your equipment from condensation when moving it between environments. The most important principle is to allow it to warm carefully when you bring it indoors, or into a warm vehicle. Warm it up thoroughly in a closed (and preferably near airtight) case or plastic bag or similar before subjecting it to the higher atmospheric moisture levels in a warm internal environment. The case these backs are normally supplied with (plus a decent-sized sachet of silica-gel) is not just "nice to have" - it's important.
-
I think there is one other issue which may be highly relevant here which is not being discussed in this thread. Intermittent and unspecific faults in electrical and electronic equipment used in certain conditions is often a result of temporary or partial interference with electrical connections. This is more often than not a function of moisture - usually from condensation - rather than temperature directly. Note that Leaf's specifications quoted above are for a particular temperature range, and then it says "(non-condensing)". These are absolutely key words.
Condensation results from a change in temperature - not of any particular temperature per se. This may well also explain variations in reliability between certain individual backs, depending on how much corrosion in electrical connections has built up during use. This corrosion in modern electronic equipment need not be visible to the naked eye to be significant - the low voltages and currents used can be highly susceptible to very small interferences at a microscopic scale. This is why a fresh battery can often cure a problem - it can push current through a small resistance which might stop a partially discharged battery. However, if the equipment is being subjected to repeated significant environmental changes there may well be cumulative effects.
Very cold equipment brought suddenly into a warm interior will be subjected to a severe moisture shock as a direct result of the temperature change. It is therefore important to protect your equipment from condensation when moving it between environments. The most important principle is to allow it to warm carefully when you bring it indoors, or into a warm vehicle. Warm it up thoroughly in a closed (and preferably near airtight) case or plastic bag or similar before subjecting it to the higher atmospheric moisture levels in a warm internal environment. The case these backs are normally supplied with (plus a decent-sized sachet of silica-gel) is not just "nice to have" - it's important.
Excellent points Ian. That could explain the difficulty with re-creating an electrical issue that occurs under cold temperatures. The environment is a bit like a computer system in that respect - more variations than we can imagine (or reasonably reproduce).
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
-
I've used separate warm batteries, newly bought original ones, swapped batteries when errors occurred etc, errors occur when battery meter shows full battery. Quite sure it's not the battery.
I'm very familiar with condensation issues, I've used cameras and electronics in cold conditions quite extensively. I keep the gear in the closed bag to cool down and warm up slowly to avoid condensation. In the climate I live in condensation is rather easy to avoid, the air is generally rather dry both summer and winter.
I've used one other back (an ancient Hasselblad CF22, also open vent and fan) with the exact same tech camera with the exact same procedures in the same type of conditions many times without any problems. And of course I use my DSLR (a 5Dmk2, ie consumer level sealing) in the same way, without problems.
So I'm quite sure there's some specific issue with this back. Fortunately Leaf centrally has listened to my elaborate description of the problem and decided to take yet another look at this. It's not supposed to be this dodgy under these conditions. I don't yet know what the result of that will be. I hope they will be able to reproduce the problem. I experience problems about 6-7 out of 10 times out in chilly/cold weather, so there are 3-4 out of 10 that is trouble-free. This means that the problem is not super-easy to reproduce at will, but if you work with the back over a few days you get failures. I'm not a studio photographer that can pick a backup off the shelf, as I go to fairly remote areas by foot I need a back that I can rely on.
My guess is that there's one or more components in the back that has a rather small tolerance range, and due to sample variation some units work well and others are be a bit unstable, ie my back is not necessarily faulty but happens to have tolerance on the wrong side (this is also what P1 web support suggested). Not great if that is the case, but I would guess less than 10% of medium format shooters use their gear in "tough" conditions so few would notice, and as long as Leaf helps out us few winter outdoor photographers to get a unit that is stable outside studio conditions I'm good.