Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ejnewman on April 01, 2013, 12:52:48 pm

Title: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 01, 2013, 12:52:48 pm
Thinking about making the move into large format from a DSLR and have the following questions...

I shoot mainly panoramic with a pano head, I'd like to continue shooting panos this way so I don't require movements, portability is a major factor so I have been looking at the alpa TC and the arca swiss compact solutions. I don't have any experience with LF systems, but from what I have read it seems that the digital back cannot talk to the lens/vice versa, so A) lens exif data is not passed into raw file and B) you cannot control shutter and aperture from the back.

If this is the case how would you go about shooting HDR with AEB? Important for pano work. Also how would you do multi pass shoots where you need to change exposure settings without touching the camera?

I researched the electronic shutter lenses available, which suggests this is possible, but seemingly only via a laptop tether. Phase One tell me what I am trying to achieve is only possible with a system such as the Phase One DF camera which is able to interface with the lens.

Elliot Newman

www.elliotnewman.com

Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 01:17:19 pm
Rollei is comming out with an electronic shutter that has a control unit that it connected
to the camera via a wire. This may work for you. The controller does bracketing etc.

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/bellows-camera/lenscontrol-s.html (http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/bellows-camera/lenscontrol-s.html)

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/bellows-camera/electronicshutter.html (http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/bellows-camera/electronicshutter.html)
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 01, 2013, 01:22:20 pm
Have you had a chance to take actual photos with a medium format system yet? You may well find your desire/need to do HDR bracketing is greatly reduced or even eliminated when shooting with a good DB rather than a dSLR. There are tests (I'm sure Fred will be happy to jump in and post links to the 2-3 same tired tests he always does) which imply the usable dynamic range of a digital back can be matched with a dSLR. In my shooting, and in my experience working with hundreds of photographers on such dSLR>LFD transitions I can tell you this is not the case (though I'd greatly prefer to have you take your own tests to show yourself). There are scenes which still require multiple exposures to capture properly with an IQ180 for instance, but they are far less frequent than when using a standard dSLR.

All that said if you want to do AEB you will need an electronic shutter and a laptop or a MF system like the DF+. There are options out on the horizon for shutters which may allow iPhone control, but I suggest against relying on such promised/announced/possible systems; today there is no such option.

The Arca Swiss Factum (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/arca-swiss) by the way would provide you several advantages above and beyond the Alpa TC:
- tilt on every lens, no adapter or special lens mount required
- rise/fall for perspective correction, whether or not you plan on using lateral movement for stitching you may still enjoy the ability to offset the horizon without introducing ill-perspective
- ultra precise focusing bayonet for both precision focusing and also for highly repeatable focus presets like hyperfocal

Edit: as pointed out by Yaya there is a handheld Schneider controller which is battery powered and does not require a laptop. It's a bit bulky, the interface is a bit hokey to learn at first, but it does provide the functionality you need. We have one or two left in stock; I believe they have officially been discontinued.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: JoeKitchen on April 01, 2013, 01:34:56 pm
I may be wrong here, but I do not think that the new shutters from DHW (Rollie) will connect to the back via an USB.  I think it still going to be a connection from the back to the sync outlet, which will only tell the back the length of the exposure.  The real advantage with these new shutters is the extra speed, more precise apature adjustments in tenth stops, and possibly 1/3 stop shutter movements.  Also, no more thick cables as the power and control for the shutters is with a mini USB connected to a computer or phone.  

BTW, the links above are for the old shutter.  A press release for the new shutters are floating around somewhere on the Internet.  They also have not been released yet; last I heard they are still working on the software. 

Currently manual Copal shutters are the only viable options for on location shooting.  As long as you have a steady hand and stable tripod, you should be able to operate the camera without it moving.  We use to do multiple exposures with 4x5 film with no problems.  
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 01, 2013, 02:03:28 pm
Hi Elliot
I have started shooting 360 degree shots using my digital back on a Cambo view camera. I used multiple exposures, getting about 35 to 40 different views. I fused the files using photomatix. Not HDR from tone mapped images but just used to increase the dynamic range closer to what the eye can see. I didn't use a proper panoramic head. The closest object was about 2 feet away. The furthest at times were mountains in the distance. I used the analogue exposure meter called, one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand etc  :D You don't need an electronic exposure to achieve what you want to achieve. I am picking up an arca swiss system with a cube head and monorail next week which will make life easier re. parallax but in the photos I shot there were branches going left to right. Using PT GUI the stitches were 99% perfect re/ joins and I tweaked the rest in photoshop.

Doug made a very valid point about going for a view camera with movements. The images I shot had about 5mm rise to create a more interesting dynamic. Rather than having the horizon in the middle. I'd recommend the same

Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 01, 2013, 03:50:56 pm
Thanks all.

I tend not to need movements because I shoot very wide which allows me to crop and essentially create movements in post. I can see why it would be beneficial for single row panos though, but this isn't something I need.

So for location work using, say for argument, an Arca Swiss "Fac" and manual copal shutter lenses - what would my workflow be if I wanted to shoot a pano with +/- 3 stop shutter bracketing? I see it right now that I would have to do this manually on the lens, which would soon become tiresome.

Lugging a laptop on location isn't a solution either.

From my experience, whenever you touch the camera you will have a small shift in alignment, so looking for a solution that doesn't have a mirror flapping down between each bracket (aka DSLR), I thought a technical camera would be the answer, perhaps this Rollie stuff would be, but seems it's pretty cutting edge/new tech which makes me a little more nervous... Maybe I should just wait a few more years to see what happens, seems a DSLR remains the best option for me, for what I want to do.

I was also considering a Leica M since this would not have a mirror causing vibrations but again I think I am limited in terms of remote shooting with this, and not sure how well it handles AEB, from what I read it only works in aperture priority mode and not fully manual, which again will not work for panos.

Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 01, 2013, 04:55:28 pm
Again I have to ask if you've had the chance to shoot such a system.

Your current workflow was developed around the capabilities of your current platform.

It is possible that with medium format you'll still find you want to take a dozen loose shots with three exposures each, and do all your work in post to blend and merge them. But you'd be the exception not the rule. Most users (even those very heavily focused on quality) are very happy with the quality from a single capture, or at most a 2 or 3 image stitch with no exposure blending.

Until you've taken some real world images with a LFD platform I would not make assumptions about how you will use it.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 01, 2013, 05:30:30 pm
Slug. A single image limits you to certain types of image. My panoramics have consisted of images from 80 seconds to 1/125 seconds. No camera can do that in a single shot. The Forrest shots required 80 seconds to a half second to capture dark shadow areas and sunlight grass and blue skies. Again a single image is not possible. A single image capture eliminates a whole bunch of opportunities in more challenging. Ie the very images I want to capture. Elliot the Forrest shots were captured with a 28mm (20mm in 35mm format). The rise allows you to shoot the image exactly as you want and it means you don't have to gegrade the image with corrections or cropping in photoshop. I never had an issue with image shifts from cocking the shutter. It's not really a big deal. You just don't whack the lens but a couple of weeks ago I show about 700 images for 5 360's. I think the camera moved once and that was because a screw was loose on the tripod head.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 05:51:25 pm
Thanks all.

I tend not to need movements because I shoot very wide which allows me to crop and essentially create movements in post. I can see why it would be beneficial for single row panos though, but this isn't something I need.

So for location work using, say for argument, an Arca Swiss "Fac" and manual copal shutter lenses - what would my workflow be if I wanted to shoot a pano with +/- 3 stop shutter bracketing? I see it right now that I would have to do this manually on the lens, which would soon become tiresome.

Lugging a laptop on location isn't a solution either.

From my experience, whenever you touch the camera you will have a small shift in alignment, so looking for a solution that doesn't have a mirror flapping down between each bracket (aka DSLR), I thought a technical camera would be the answer, perhaps this Rollie stuff would be, but seems it's pretty cutting edge/new tech which makes me a little more nervous... Maybe I should just wait a few more years to see what happens, seems a DSLR remains the best option for me, for what I want to do.

I was also considering a Leica M since this would not have a mirror causing vibrations but again I think I am limited in terms of remote shooting with this, and not sure how well it handles AEB, from what I read it only works in aperture priority mode and not fully manual, which again will not work for panos.


The Rollei shutter is a new product, however Rollei has had in camera bracketing and focus stacking control for some time. The shutter is based on that.


With a DSLR if you want to avoid the risk of movement with the mirror there are a few options.
Shooting in live view mode locks up the mirror for multiple exposures.
You may also find this interesting:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76884.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76884.0)

Wireless live view and camera control.


Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 01, 2013, 05:57:32 pm
Doug - you're right, I should try a system out and see how I get on, but first I wanted to see what was possible with a LF system, hence the post.

Enda - I am already projecting the images onto a sphere to stitch the pano, so in this regard I'm not losing any more detail by doing movements in post. If i was to do a rectilinear stitch using movements then for sure I would see why this would be preferable in camera. I am also looking to reduce bulk and weight hence why a compact solution without movements would be my preference.

So how do you go about bracketing on your LF pano shots?

Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 01, 2013, 06:04:07 pm
FredBGG - thanks for the link. Last time I checked on a 5D II I found the mirror still came down during LV bracketing. Are you certain of this fact?
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 01, 2013, 06:13:04 pm
http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item28497.html (http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item28497.html)

If you're worried about weight than maybe an electronic shutter isn't the best option. This camera from Cambo is extremely compact by the way and has a fair amount of movements. How come you're doing a spherical pano as opposed to a cylindrical pano?
Bracketing is counting one one thousand etc when exposures are over one second (bulb is required over 1 second) its really not an issue
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 06:33:26 pm
FredBGG - thanks for the link. Last time I checked on a 5D II I found the mirror still came down during LV bracketing. Are you certain of this fact?

I don't have the 5D II anymore, but if I recall correctly the mirror stays up between live view shots. The shutter however does have to
re prime and open for live view and then shut to then expose the image.
Another thing... In live view mode the Canon 5DII has an electronic first curtain. This means there is no shutter movement at all at the beginning of the exposure.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76940.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76940.0)

I currently use the d800 and on it the mirror stays up for the duration of a live view set of shots.

The new Canon 5DIII has a silent mode that moves the mirror more slowly. It certainly is a whisper quiet shutter.

Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 01, 2013, 07:07:53 pm
I always spherically project my panos then recompose to a rectilinear projection. This essentially allows me to "rephotograph" the scene in post.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 07:10:14 pm
I always spherically project my panos then recompose to a rectilinear projection. This essentially allows me to "rephotograph" the scene in post.

Also the resolution of a large pano is so high that doing shift type correction in post still results in an extreemely high res image. Also there are no color cast issues that can be a problem
shooting with a MFDB and a shift camera.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 01, 2013, 07:17:51 pm
Fred. Since when is colour cast an issue with technical cameras. It's removed during the raw file processing workflow. If anything it ensures better colour accuracy because you also do a white balance picker on the calibration shot after removing the colour cast.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 09:51:37 pm
Fred. Since when is colour cast an issue with technical cameras. It's removed during the raw file processing workflow. If anything it ensures better colour accuracy because you also do a white balance picker on the calibration shot after removing the colour cast.

It can be an issue when doing pano's LCC is a useful tool, but has it's limitations. While it does do good corrections on a single frame it is still
a correction that is stronger at the edges of the frame. When stitching these together it makes it more likely for there to be edges being seen.

That said it's not much of an issue with longer focal lengths.

However the OP did say he wanted to be able to do stitching with the tech camera and back if he gets one.

Also shooting LCC frames for each shot of a multi shot pano would double the time required to complete the pano, not to mention the problem
of moving the camera to put the opaline filter infront of the lens for the LCC shot.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 10:33:05 pm
There are tests (I'm sure Fred will be happy to jump in and post links to the 2-3 same tired tests he always does) which imply the usable dynamic range of a digital back can be matched with a dSLR. In my shooting, and in my experience working with hundreds of photographers on such dSLR>LFD transitions I can tell you this is not the case (though I'd greatly prefer to have you take your own tests to show yourself).

Same two or three tired tests?.....

Not all 35mm DSLRs have the same dynamic range. There are quite large differences.

Tired of the same tests... why because they show that there are some 35mm DSLRs that cam match or be slightly better than a digital back.

An image is worth a thousand words.

Anyway there are plenty of examples out there.

Here is a "fresh example"

http://www.gregorymills.com/gregorymills/2012/8/20/before-and-after.html (http://www.gregorymills.com/gregorymills/2012/8/20/before-and-after.html)

Even the jpeg can show the dynamic range characteristics of the d800.

Click on the image to see a higher res. Download it  and open it in camera raw.

Apply these setting:

Exposure +1.5
Shadows +80
Blacks +30

The result shows how much information there is despite the file being a highly compressed jpeg.

Then delete the file (fair use)

and here is what can be done in the highlights...

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/7412274614_0ab5f4bf2f_c.jpg)

This type of dynamic range performance was previously only available in MFD, but the D800 and D800e changed this.
Similar performance also comes from other new Nikon/Sony sensors.

In landscape photography you cannot change the light. Having this kind of highlight and shadow recovery in the dynamic range of the camera
makes capturing views with very wide tonal range much easier.

With film I used to have to do a water bath process to get so much information in the shadows.... and could only do it with black and white.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 02, 2013, 05:17:51 am
It can be an issue when doing pano's LCC is a useful tool, but has it's limitations. While it does do good corrections on a single frame it is still
a correction that is stronger at the edges of the frame. When stitching these together it makes it more likely for there to be edges being seen.

That said it's not much of an issue with longer focal lengths.

However the OP did say he wanted to be able to do stitching with the tech camera and back if he gets one.

Also shooting LCC frames for each shot of a multi shot pano would double the time required to complete the pano, not to mention the problem
of moving the camera to put the opaline filter infront of the lens for the LCC shot.

Why in the name of God would you want to do an LCC for every shot of a 360 if every lens movement is the same. You do one every 45 degrees or so and not  for the colour cast but as a tool to correct the white balance. You only need to do one for LCC if the rise/fall/shift doesn't change throughout the shot.

I shoot 80% panos and actually LCC isn't an "issue". It's easily corrected. If he takes multiple exposures it doesn't double his time. He is taking a calibration shot. He simply take one for every lens movement. He can change the aperture to f4.5 and take the calibration shot to reduce the exposure time further. (In my experience changing the aperture has no noticeable affect on the calibration shot) If for example you think the correction is too strong at the edges than turn off the vignetting correction or reduce it down. That's not an issue that's called using your head in the workflow. Even if I don't need to take a LCC I take a calibration shot each time the light changes say for internal architecture purely to get a perfect white balance each time. Saves me a bundle of time tweaking white balance later.


If you're talking about what the OP said maybe you should read the post heading again before you start going on about 35mm cameras.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 02, 2013, 05:44:18 am
Yes, surely I would only need to do 1 lens cast correction per focal length, per aperture? So lens cast is a problem even when no movements are required? I would hope this is only an issue with extremely wide lenses. I have my own raw workflow and shoot distortion grids and vignette profiles myself for each camera and lens combo I own, I guess I would calibrate the LC as part of my vignette correction.

I don't bother shooting white balance cards, it's flawed anyway and I tend to creatively control WB in post to my taste.

Was looking at the rollie electronic shutter - would this be something that can be used on any system or would it only work with rollie lenses?
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 02, 2013, 06:24:38 am
Ya Elliot. Really LCC's are not an issue. I personally find using the semi opaque card over the lens is useful for white balance, especially when there isn't a neutral tone in the scene (which can be quite often)
You are correct in saying you need to do one irrespective of lens movements or not, pano or not.

I don't use an electronic shutter myself. Just don't see the need for them.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ejnewman on April 02, 2013, 09:13:06 am
So to conclude this thread: there is currently no way to control shutter and aperture with a LF system other than touching the lens or tethering to a laptop?

The Rollie electronic shutter might be an option, but does this limit the lens compatibility to just rollie lenses?
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: torger on April 02, 2013, 09:14:11 am
Yes, surely I would only need to do 1 lens cast correction per focal length, per aperture? So lens cast is a problem even when no movements are required? I would hope this is only an issue with extremely wide lenses. I have my own raw workflow and shoot distortion grids and vignette profiles myself for each camera and lens combo I own, I guess I would calibrate the LC as part of my vignette correction.

I don't bother shooting white balance cards, it's flawed anyway and I tend to creatively control WB in post to my taste.

Was looking at the rollie electronic shutter - would this be something that can be used on any system or would it only work with rollie lenses?

Color cast is affected by focal length, aperture, shift and tilt. You need to use it from about 50mm and down, varies a bit depending on digital back and lens design. The new DHW shutter is a drop-in replacement for the mechanical Copal shutter (which is going out of production soon by the way) so it will work with Rodenstock and Schneider "large format digital" lenses. If you do vignette correction already and don't intend to do any movements (shift/tilt) then it will be no different from the current workflow.

The mirror slap problem can be worked around with a DSLR (shooting live view etc), so you should have some other strong reason to go MF. Stitching can be made very efficiently with a DSLR so but you can of course get more resolution with less shots with MF which may be a strong enough selling point. Maybe you can do single-row pano with MF but must do multi-row with DSLR to get the resolution you desire, that would be a great improvement of workflow.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2013, 09:30:47 am
Yes, surely I would only need to do 1 lens cast correction per focal length, per aperture? So lens cast is a problem even when no movements are required? I would hope this is only an issue with extremely wide lenses. I have my own raw workflow and shoot distortion grids and vignette profiles myself for each camera and lens combo I own, I guess I would calibrate the LC as part of my vignette correction.

The LCC will replace your vignette correction routine.
The lack of any meaningful distortion (https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/datasheets/Apo_Digitar_5_6_72_rel.pdf) on most tech camera lenses, even with moderate rise/fall will almost surely render your desire to shoot your own distortion grids moot.

I think you're carrying a lot of baggage of your current workflow into your search for a LFD kit. It's not a matter of if you can replicate your existing workflow, it's a matter of whether you can match/exceed your current results.

Rent, demo, evaluate, use a LFD kit for a few hours or a few days and see what workflows will make most sense if you adopt that equipment, and see what the results are with those workflows.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: yaya on April 02, 2013, 10:04:29 am
So to conclude this thread: there is currently no way to control shutter and aperture with a LF system other than touching the lens or tethering to a laptop?

The Rollie electronic shutter might be an option, but does this limit the lens compatibility to just rollie lenses?

If you use the Rollei (with Rollei e-shutters), Schneider or Silvestri controllers (with Schneider shutters) or the Sinar/ Rodenstock iOS app (with Sinar/ Rodenstock shutters) you do not need to tether to a laptop.

BR
Yair
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2013, 11:13:37 am
If you use the Rollei (with Rollei e-shutters), Schneider or Silvestri controllers (with Schneider shutters) or the Sinar/ Rodenstock iOS app (with Sinar/ Rodenstock shutters) you do not need to tether to a laptop.

BR
Yair

Yair, isn't the Schneider controller discontinued? We still have 1 or 2 on the shelf I think, but I don't think they are being sold by Schneider any longer. Please correct me if you know otherwise.

I've not used the Rollei e-shutter iOS app - is it 100% shipping and ready to go?
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: yaya on April 02, 2013, 12:03:30 pm
Yair, isn't the Schneider controller discontinued? We still have 1 or 2 on the shelf I think, but I don't think they are being sold by Schneider any longer. Please correct me if you know otherwise.

I've not used the Rollei e-shutter iOS app - is it 100% shipping and ready to go?

I should clarify;

Rollei Control-S with e-shutters (made by DHW): This is the CURRENT model and it can run off of a NiMh battery with full control of the lens:

(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/246993.jpg)

Schneider Shutter Control ES: It was manufactured by a 3rd party for Schneider and was recently discontinued. It can run on a battery and like the Rollei can drive the lens without tethering:

(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/469311.jpg)

Silvestri DRCU (also now endorsed by Schneider): As the others it can also run on battery: http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/digital_lenses/DRCU.html (http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/digital_lenses/DRCU.html)

Yair

Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 02, 2013, 03:03:25 pm
I should clarify;

Rollei Control-S with e-shutters (made by DHW): This is the CURRENT model and it can run off of a NiMh battery with full control of the lens:

(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/246993.jpg)

Schneider Shutter Control ES: It was manufactured by a 3rd party for Schneider and was recently discontinued. It can run on a battery and like the Rollei can drive the lens without tethering:

(http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/469311.jpg)

Silvestri DRCU (also now endorsed by Schneider): As the others it can also run on battery: http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/digital_lenses/DRCU.html (http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti_eng/digital_lenses/DRCU.html)

Yair



Another good thing about these is that the screen is easier to view in bright light than a cell phone of laptop.
The gigapan has the same sort of old school LCD
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: MrSmith on April 02, 2013, 03:27:05 pm
You would think a simple Bluetooth or USB lead to an iOS /android product direct to an electronic shutter would suffice? Or is there not enough cash to develop that? One less thing to carry too.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 02, 2013, 03:37:45 pm
Again I have to ask if you've had the chance to shoot such a system.

Your current workflow was developed around the capabilities of your current platform.

It is possible that with medium format you'll still find you want to take a dozen loose shots with three exposures each,
and do all your work in post to blend and merge them. But you'd be the exception not the rule.
Most users (even those very heavily focused on quality) are very happy with the quality from a single capture, or at most a 2 or 3 image stitch with no exposure blending.

Until you've taken some real world images with a LFD platform I would not make assumptions about how you will use it.

One of the advantages of stitching is using only one lens... and having to carry only one lens (and maybe another for backup)
The tendency is toy use those lenses that on all systems tend to be the best and that is short to medium telephoto.
These lenses tend to have the best corner to corner resolution in particular with reflex cameras.
For this reason the amount of shots taken is largely determined by what angle of view you want for the final shot.
There are also considerations to be made regarding how much time can be taken for the overall shot.

That said the IQ180 is still the best choice as far as ultimate resolution goes for single shot photos.

As far as the need or not for exposure blending there is no advantage with a MFD back compared to
many DSLRs. These days there are quite a few with as high dynamic range, even budget cameras with smaller sensors.

That said the need for exposure blending on very wide panos is more common than with single shot work.
This is because a pano can go from pointing almost at the sun to the complete opposite side of the sky.

Panos are not a total replacement for MFD and MFD is not a replacement for panos.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 02, 2013, 03:49:10 pm
You would think a simple Bluetooth or USB lead to an iOS /android product direct to an electronic shutter would suffice? Or is there not enough cash to develop that? One less thing to carry too.

Not sure about what protocol these items use.

However the adoption of programmable processors by Phase One may make the development of these types of functionality
possible. They could even be separately sold upgrades.

I think that the very nifty wifi review that Phase One implemented is a good indication of the capabilities that can be developed.
Telling a lens what to do is very simple compared to the operations wifi preview is doing. What's more the new backs can setup the adhoc network that
could be used to talk to the lens. DHW, Schneider, Silvestri etc could licence their communication code.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 02, 2013, 06:54:02 pm
One of the advantages of stitching is using only one lens... and having to carry only one lens (and maybe another for backup)
The tendency is toy use those lenses that on all systems tend to be the best and that is short to medium telephoto.
These lenses tend to have the best corner to corner resolution in particular with reflex cameras.
For this reason the amount of shots taken is largely determined by what angle of view you want for the final shot.
There are also considerations to be made regarding how much time can be taken for the overall shot.


Elliot
I think that is bad advice. You can use a single lens like a short to medium telephoto if you want to limit yourself to one type of panoramic. Personally I like to asses the scene and than decide. This panoramic for example was shot on a 28mm lens (20mm in 35mm format)  I know other scenes will be more suited to my 35mm or 47mm lenses (24mm and around 35mm in 35mm format) and The nearest branch was a few feet away. It allowed me to get right in the middle of these trees. The trees with their wonderful bark are only feet away. The branches are going left to right. The panoramic consists of 37 views. Each view had 4 exposures. All shot cocking the shutter on the lens. The longest exposure was 85 seconds. All shot without a break over about 2 hours. No image shift between any of the exposures and a seamless stitch. The Schneider 28mm has practically zero distortion. You can rest assured if you do go with Schneider lenses on a technical camera that distortion and barreling will not be an issue. Can't speak for the Rodesnstocks but from what I've read there is distortion (which can be corrected but it an extra step. If you are using little or no movements than I would go with the Schneiders. Large movements with the wider Schneider wide angle lenses on the new larger sensor Phase One IQ backs will give you horrible magenta colour casts.
The angles of the trees are how they actually were by the way. 
I had 5mm of rise on the shot in this post so as to keep the vertical dynamic whilst moving the horizon down to the bottom third. The image was stitched with PTGUI ( a phenomenally clever piece of software)

(http://www.endacavanagh.com/Enda's%20Images/Images%20for%20Luminous%20Landscape/Tomies-Wood-2013-02-22_1027360_4_5_6a-Panorama-a-BW%20copy.jpg)

The second image with the jolly printers was captured today on my iPhone. The pano is in the process of been printed and mounted.

(http://www.endacavanagh.com/Enda's%20Images/Images%20for%20Luminous%20Landscape/IMG_3025.jpg)

Here is a link to another LL post.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=74519.msg593690#msg593690 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=74519.msg593690#msg593690)

The colour shot illustrates the straight lines and the flat horizon.
 
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 02, 2013, 08:16:50 pm
Elliot
I think that is bad advice. You can use a single lens like a short to medium telephoto if you want to limit yourself to one type of panoramic. Personally I like to asses the scene and than decide. This panoramic for example was shot on a 28mm lens (20mm in 35mm format)  I know other scenes will be more suited to my 35mm or 47mm lenses (24mm and around 35mm in 35mm format).....
 

Enda I'm not advocating shooting with just one lens in all situations. My point was in response to Doug's post that users will be happy with 3 frame stitches and no multiple exposures.
The VERY NICE example you just posted is a clear example of where more than 3 shots would not have pulled it off. You pretty much created and impossible lens by using 37 views with 4 exposures each.

As you pointed out the proximity of your subject favors a wider lens.

The point I wanted to make is that final virtual angle of view has more to do with the number of exposures
made than resolution as stitching results in very high pixel count.

May I add that you did a damn good job and keeping track of 37x4=148 exposures over two hours especially for this subject requires good skill and discipline !!
Setting up a gigapan and a DSLR set to bracket for each view is a piece of cake in comparison and take much less time and not require even half of the effort
and discipline.


Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 02, 2013, 09:59:01 pm


Setting up a gigapan and a DSLR set to bracket for each view is a piece of cake in comparison and take much less time and not require even half of the effort
and discipline.




Ah sure what's the fun in that.  :D
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 02, 2013, 10:03:47 pm
So to conclude this thread: there is currently no way to control shutter and aperture with a LF system other than touching the lens or tethering to a laptop?

The Rollie electronic shutter might be an option, but does this limit the lens compatibility to just rollie lenses?


Elliott -

There will be a flush of new shutter options over the next couple years from a number of manufacturers. However, for today, for what you are asking for - portability/minimal vibration/maximum stability, for medium format you might consider the Sinar eShutter with a MacBook Air tethered to a Phase One digital back (or Leaf Credo, basically any digital back that can drive itself with on board battery). This would be the equivalent of bringing along a large-ish iPad (plus the eShutter controller, which is about 7"x3"x1/2"). You could then trigger it with your iPhone.

Or you might consider an H4D/H5D, since you don't need movements. You could shoot with mirror up, (and on the H4D/H5D the mirror stays up until you lower it), and all your lens data would be captured, and your captures would be corrected via Hasselbald DAC (Lens Corrections) for distortion, chromatic aberration and vignetting. A bit bulkier than a tech camera, but looking at your choices today, these may be 2 of the better options. One nice feature not often mentioned for the H4D/H5D is that you can dial in temperature control, as opposed to just choosing Daylite/Auto, etc, or clicking on a grey card, like with other digital backs. This might be nice for you since you don't seem to prefer the sterile color balancing of a grey card.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 02, 2013, 10:14:25 pm
Ah sure what's the fun in that.  :D


:D

True the challenge can be part of the fun....
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 03, 2013, 01:07:14 am
The panoramic consists of 37 views. Each view had 4 exposures.

(http://www.endacavanagh.com/Enda's%20Images/Images%20for%20Luminous%20Landscape/Tomies-Wood-2013-02-22_1027360_4_5_6a-Panorama-a-BW%20copy.jpg)

Nice image.

On the other hand I am not sure why you needed HDR for this scene. It seems to be overcast and the sky appears not to have much detail in it anyway. Could you not have exposed for the grass in the distance and lifted the shadows of the trees in the foreground?

Considering the print size, one row seems more than sufficient also. Do the 37 images correspond to the usage of DoF stacking?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 03, 2013, 08:02:29 am
Nice image.

On the other hand I am not sure why you needed HDR for this scene. It seems to be overcast and the sky appears not to have much detail in it anyway. Could you not have exposed for the grass in the distance and lifted the shadows of the trees in the foreground?

Considering the print size, one row seems more than sufficient also. Do the 37 images correspond to the usage of DoF stacking?

Cheers,
Bernard


Thanks Bernard.
It is one row. The exposure for the shadows was 85 seconds. The exposure for the grass in the back ground was I believe a half second from memory. I didn't create a hdr image per say which is a tonemapped image from a 32  bit image but fusing the images allowed me to get perfect detail in all the bright and dark areas without having to noise and burnt out highlights. Trust me it was not possible on my back. I'm sure with an IQ more would be achieved but for me it was about trying to recreate what the eye can see and not what a single exposure can achieve on a camera.

By the way I try not to crop. These panoramics have been printed up to 18 feet wide on acrylic (40ft on vinyl) and cropping is one thing I do not do. I have captured that image because that is how I saw the scene. I don't shoot wider to cover my ass so I can crop later. ;)
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on April 03, 2013, 12:58:37 pm
Or you might consider an H4D/H5D, since you don't need movements. You could shoot with mirror up, (and on the H4D/H5D the mirror stays up until you lower it), and all your lens data would be captured, and your captures would be corrected via Hasselbald DAC (Lens Corrections) for distortion, chromatic aberration and vignetting. A bit bulkier than a tech camera, but looking at your choices today, these may be 2 of the better options. One nice feature not often mentioned for the H4D/H5D is that you can dial in temperature control, as opposed to just choosing Daylite/Auto, etc, or clicking on a grey card, like with other digital backs. This might be nice for you since you don't seem to prefer the sterile color balancing of a grey card.

With its auto bracketing capability and mirror lock-up throughout the multiple exposures, the H4D has worked well for me when the dynamic range of the scene is just too great for single exposure settings. The following is a five-bracket exposure tone-mapped with luminance masks.

Ed

(http://www.edfoster.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/20120505_night_pier_1594-1598.jpg)
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: FredBGG on April 03, 2013, 01:14:08 pm
(http://www.endacavanagh.com/Enda's%20Images/Images%20for%20Luminous%20Landscape/Tomies-Wood-2013-02-22_1027360_4_5_6a-Panorama-a-BW%20copy.jpg)

Enda

What is interesting about this image is that the actual subject isn't really that pretty, but it is the way you photographed it
that lets you see the subject in another way. While the image reproduces the reality of the textures etc it introduces a perspective
and a tonal range that even the eye can't see in one view.

I can imagine this on both sides of a corridor. I even think that viewing the picture from off to one side gives it even more depth
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on April 03, 2013, 01:33:47 pm
Thanks Fred. That's the type of photo I love to take and the type of subject matter I love to photograph. For me the forms of these old holly trees are just stunning. As soon as I walked by these wee bunch of trees I saw there was something there. Of course when you shoot the 360's you have no idea if it really worked but that's the fun. The sado masichist in me likes to do things the hard way.  :D What I love about PTGui and this is for Elliot in case he is interested in it for his panos, is that you determine where the pano starts. You slide the preview across the screen until you feel the photo has a nice balance. You just have to make sure the tripod is level and that you go a bit beyond 360 when you shoot. Otherwise there will be a gap and you have to use the 1st image capture as the beginning of the panoramic. It's funny I photographed the forrest 3 days in a row. This was the 1st shot on the first day. That rush of electricity I felt when I saw it the 1st time was never repeated when I saw it again.  ;D I suppose you're senses are so hyper alert the first time and than you just move on.
Title: Re: DSLR -> LFD: system questions
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 03, 2013, 02:38:02 pm
Hi,

I would also consider these:

http://www.kolor.com/buy/gigapan-epic-pro-bundle.html

or this:

http://www.kolor.com/buy/kolor-panogear-motorized-panoramic-head-gigapixel-4.html

Equipment that automates multi row panos. Myself, I just shoot a few stitched images now and than using my Arca 4D head (which I love) and possible a nodal slider.

I would add that I am always interested in equipment that fulfills my needs at reasonable cost. Good enough is good enough for me.

Best regards
Erik