Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Scotty-S on March 24, 2013, 02:41:53 am

Title: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Scotty-S on March 24, 2013, 02:41:53 am
Hi all.
I have been exploring the option of purchasing a medium format system and I primarily shoot landscape images.

My current endeavours have had me looking at the Pentax 645D system and the 25/55/90mm lenses, as well as some others such as the 35mm and 150mm options as well.

Along the way I have also taken a look at the Phase One system, mainly the 40 and 60mp back options, along with the new IQ260 which looks awesome.

I have been shooting with a Leica M9 for years now and have recently sold it and ordered a new M, while using a Sony Nex6 for the duration as a substitute and quite like it.

The main reason for the post is that I may cancel my new Leica M order and get into a MF system, and continue to use a current and future Nex system for travel and any time I need a lightweight system.

My main concern with the new Leica M is that it can only shoot to a maximum exposure time of 1 minute.  I do a lot of seascapes and would like to get into a little more night work as well as some architecture work, and exposure times longer than 1 minute would be a must I feel.

So, questions to raise are as follows:

How is the long exposure on the Pentax 645D?

How is the future of the 645D looking, are we likely to see a new model soon with higher resolution and live view (mainly for more accurate landscape focusing)?

What is the quality of the Pentax lenses over those offered for the phase one 645DF body?

Anybody out there directly compared the image quality of the IQ backs to the Pentax 645D?

Is the investment of the IQ260 and associated system worth the extra $$$ over the Pentax for somebody who is not yet selling prints?  I shoot for a hobby mainly.


Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks, Scott
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: tsjanik on March 24, 2013, 08:37:06 am
Scott:

I’ve had a 645D for 2.5 yrs. and love the camera.  Although I have other cameras, I rarely use anything else.  Many of your questions can be answered with some searches, e.g., at this site alone:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax_645d___a_first_review.shtml


http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/2010_mini_medium_format_shoot_out.shtml

 The Pentax sensor is sealed in the body, which is both an advantage and disadvantage.  I don’t worry about alignment or weather, but I can’t use a tech camera either.

I rarely take really long exposures and when I do I use film.  I don’t know what the exposure limit is on the 645D, but attached is a 100% crop from an eight minute exposure (no NR applied.)

Tom

NB In case you're unsure, these are startrails in a sky with considerable stray light from a nearby city. 
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 24, 2013, 02:28:14 pm
I also use a 645D. Long exposures are very good--there is no limit. I do many multi-minute exposures. There is a dark frame after each exposure. If you are doing daylight ND exposure, you will need to make something to cover the viewfinder to stop light leaks.

I have no problem focusing landscapes manually. The viewfinder is so much bigger than a tiny 35mm viewfinder. Live View is not needed.

The lenses are very good with only a few dogs--Mamiya lenses are a mixed bag as well. The new Pentax lenses are excellent. I print 60" print from the 645D and 12' panoramas.

The only advantage to the IQ260 is the sensor size--pixel resolution is one of those overrated factors. You are getting a 22% increase in resolution over the 645D no one will notice.

There is a suggestion a new model is coming out. No one knows what it will be. So far, no one has released an MFD camera with CMOS. I doubt Pentax will be the first, but who knows...
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 24, 2013, 03:17:36 pm
I have no problem focusing landscapes manually. The viewfinder is so much bigger than a tiny 35mm viewfinder. Live View is not needed.

Until you put on an ND filter, ND and polarizer or are shooting in low light and very long exposures.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 24, 2013, 03:52:19 pm
I do a lot of seascapes and would like to get into a little more night work as well as some architecture work, and exposure times longer than 1 minute would be a must I feel.

How is the future of the 645D looking, are we likely to see a new model soon with higher resolution and live view (mainly for more accurate landscape focusing)?

Thanks, Scott

If you shoot seascapes the Pentax 645D is a good MFD choice as it has the best weather sealing of all MFD. New lenses are weather sealed too.
Also Pentax doesn't mess around when it comes to weather sealing.

http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw (http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw)

As for the future of the 645D I think it is in good hands. It is clear that Ricoh wants to continue developing the system
and it is already ahead of the others in certain aspects. Most recently they were the first to introduce optical image stabilization.
This is a very good sign as something like this requires significant development costs. Most importantly Pentax has a long
history of in house lens design and manufacturing. It's also the only MFD camera that is part of a very large public company
with much deeper pockets that the others.

There is also another important aspect in my opinion. I think that the Pentax is far better positioned as a milionaires luxury
camera because it is more compact and lighter than other MF cameras and won't die with the first wine spill
at a dinner party. It's no luxury lugging around a heavy camera.

One other thing about the Pentax brand is that it is in the hands of two companies.

Ricoh for cameras and Hoya Corp for the medical and industrial divisions.
Both are $ 10B companies and both with interests in supporting the brand as well as
manufacturing that can support each other.

Another thing to consider is that Ricoh is an electronics company with IC fabrication and design
capability in house.

http://www.ricoh.com/LSI/ (http://www.ricoh.com/LSI/)

Ricoh like Nikon and Canon are companies with a very broad industrial capability and diversification.
This bodes well for the future.

 

Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken R on March 24, 2013, 08:13:00 pm
Scotty I am also in the market for a new MFD and also shoot a lot of landscapes but also want to use the camera for my advertising and architecture shoots that are client supervised. For that I need tethering something that Im not sure the Pentax can do well. The posted long exposure crop sample looks better than anything I have seen from a MFD recently. In pure technical IQ terms I think the Phase IQ180 is the best of all and the files have incredible depth for post-production and obviously resolution is top notch. But, It cant really do long exposures. Money no object the new IQ260 should be ideal for you.

The Pentax is an integrated system and from what I could gather online a really good one at that. It a good value now and the next version should continue that. The 90mm looks awesome. It even has Vibration reduction and focuses very close (macro).

I was between the Hasselblad H4D-40 and the pentax. If I wanted the camera only for landscapes the Pentax would be my choice. But, if I had a bit more to spend the Phase One DF+ and a Phase back would get my $.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ndevlin on March 24, 2013, 08:23:29 pm
Hi Scott,


So, questions to raise are as follows:

How is the long exposure on the Pentax 645D?

---> Just fine.  That said, there are very few applications for truly 'long' exposure. The 645D is good as any.

How is the future of the 645D looking, are we likely to see a new model soon with higher resolution and live view (mainly for more accurate landscape focusing)?

----> Ain't that the million dollar question! The whole MF industry is in a pretty tenuous, notwithstanding what some of those in it might say.  There is no such thing as a sure bet.  That said, Pentax/Ricoh did come out with the new glass as promised, which is encouraging.  The real issue is a source for a new sensor. With Kodak out of the game, all eyes go to Dalsa, unless someone else starts to fab in these sizes. I strongly suspect the price of the Pentax was, in part, the product of a large one-time buy of the chips.  The big problem in MF is the R&D cost to bring one of these beasts to market fully de-bugged.  It's damn hard and damn expensive.
   
What is the quality of the Pentax lenses over those offered for the phase one 645DF body?

----> The newer schneider/phase glass had better be a lot better than the old pentax (though I doubt in practice this would be true -- some of the Pentax 645 glass is/was awesome) but as between the new lenses, there should be little difference.


Anybody out there directly compared the image quality of the IQ backs to the Pentax 645D?

----> we compared the 645D to the P40+ here on Lula a couple of years ago. Pretty much a dead heat except the Pentax was better at high ISOs.  No one has bothered with the IQ backs because they are higher res (the current models) and will thus be 'better' in that respect alone.  The IQ 140 will be very comparable to the 645D.  The 60 and 80 chips are Dalsa, and thus have a different colour-rendering character. Some like it, some prefer Kodak.
 

Is the investment of the IQ260 and associated system worth the extra $$$ over the Pentax for somebody who is not yet selling prints?  I shoot for a hobby mainly.

----> No. But if it helps you justify a gargantuan pleasure-purchase, You're DAMN RIGHT IT DOES!!  :P ;D

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. 

Good luck. Those of us afflicted with the MF Bug are probably beyond help.

Cheers!

- N.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 24, 2013, 08:26:06 pm
Until you put on an ND filter, ND and polarizer or are shooting in low light and very long exposures.

Hmm, something I do that all the time. I seem to muddle through without live view.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 24, 2013, 09:16:06 pm
If you shoot seascapes the Pentax 645D is a good MFD choice as it has the best weather sealing of all MFD. New lenses are weather sealed too.
Also Pentax doesn't mess around when it comes to weather sealing.

....


Sounds like you've really fallen for all this medium format digital marketing BS.   :o   ;D

I shoot "seascapes" and around water all the time.  (Carmel, Monterey, PG, Big Sur is my backyard).  In over ten years of shooting with MFDBs, I've never had an issue arise from "weather" and using my Phase bodies and Phase One MFDBs.  It just take a bit of common sense.  Most all cameras despite the lack of weather sealing marketing, can perform surprisingly well during inclement weather, with a bit of care and common sense.  Here's a short article and image of my Cambo WRS with IQ180, a bit soaked from photographing Lower Proxy Falls in Oregon:  http://kendoophotography.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/photographing-oregon-with-the-cambo-wrs1050-and-phase-iq180/   I've had my Phase DF in worse conditions photographing along Shi Shi Beach in Washington.  It's simply not a problem if you use a bit of care and common sense.  If the weather gets any worse, it's just not fun anymore.   ;)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 24, 2013, 11:46:25 pm
Sounds like you've really fallen for all this medium format digital marketing BS.   :o   ;D

I shoot "seascapes" and around water all the time.  (Carmel, Monterey, PG, Big Sur is my backyard).  In over ten years of shooting with MFDBs, I've never had an issue arise from "weather" and using my Phase bodies and Phase One MFDBs.  It just take a bit of common sense.  Most all cameras despite the lack of weather sealing marketing, can perform surprisingly well during inclement weather, with a bit of care and common sense.  Here's a short article and image of my Cambo WRS with IQ180, a bit soaked from photographing Lower Proxy Falls in Oregon:  http://kendoophotography.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/photographing-oregon-with-the-cambo-wrs1050-and-phase-iq180/   I've had my Phase DF in worse conditions photographing along Shi Shi Beach in Washington.  It's simply not a problem if you use a bit of care and common sense.  If the weather gets any worse, it's just not fun anymore.   ;)

Ken I speak from experience having used more than one weather sealed and even waterproof Pentax camera.
I am a windsurfer, kitesurfer and that means taking pictures in 30 MPH winds with saltwater spray and sand flying all over the place.
I have even put waterproof Pentax cameras on my kites and crashed the kites at high speed into 6 foot surf totally trashing the kite and the cameras have continued filming or shooting through the whole thing.

As for your comment "It just takes a bit of common sense".... One would be using common sense to take advanced weather sealing into account when choosing a camera
for things such as seascapes. While one can get buy with cameras that are not weather sealed one would have far more freedom of movement and placement with
a really well weather sealed camera.

I know I would have been far happier with a weather sealed camera when taking this picture.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8215/8294967667_158ea67af3_c.jpg)

Shot with a wide angle and spray falling all around me. I did my best to protect the camera with an umbrella and by grabbing it and running if I had to.
But for me it was not a problem. It was a commercial shoot and the client had the budget to replace my camera if it got trashed.

Ken you may want to sarcastically dismiss my past as falling for MF BS, but that has nothing to do with it. Weather sealing
on Pentax products is not limited to their MF camera.

http://c2b6d376b97bcc466063-5420c200a1f030d1394a9548df6eadbd.r5.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/support/Pentax_Ricoh_WR_White_V2%20_2_.pdf (http://c2b6d376b97bcc466063-5420c200a1f030d1394a9548df6eadbd.r5.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/support/Pentax_Ricoh_WR_White_V2%20_2_.pdf)

Pentax is well know for it's weather sealing and it is very well described on it's website including illustrations of where the seals are on many of their cameras.

Also weather sealing is not only about disaster prevention it is also about maintaining optimal image quality. Very fine dust creeps into non weather sealed lenses
this can lead to a loss in sharpness and contrast as well as slowly degrading the precision of the mechanical parts that include LS, iris and focusing threads.
The lenses pump back and forward moving this fine dust even into the body where it can get on the AF sensor and mirror mechanisms.

Weather sealing is an important factor and should be taken in consideration and I think it is useful to point it out. Just the extra peace of mind
makes a big difference.

A bit of spray... at least if it's fresh water is not problem, but all it takes is one slip or a bit of a splash and other cameras would be in trouble.

http://youtu.be/b_-RAzBjakk (http://youtu.be/b_-RAzBjakk)

 
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Rod.Klukas on March 25, 2013, 12:19:10 pm
You know that having movements such as tilt in the body and a very precise system for focusing might also be a plus.
Especially for Architecture and or landscape.
You might consider using a digital back on a technical camera such as our RM3di.
The gain is more precision in focusing and greater movement and precision than any tilt shift lens.
Anyway a suggestion to look at.
The Pentax while a nice system does not allow upgrade of the back without purchasing a new body, as well.
So something to consider when choosing.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 25, 2013, 11:54:59 pm
....

Also weather sealing is not only about disaster prevention it is also about maintaining optimal image quality. Very fine dust creeps into non weather sealed lenses
this can lead to a loss in sharpness and contrast as well as slowly degrading the precision of the mechanical parts that include LS, iris and focusing threads.
The lenses pump back and forward moving this fine dust even into the body where it can get on the AF sensor and mirror mechanisms.

Weather sealing is an important factor and should be taken in consideration and I think it is useful to point it out. Just the extra peace of mind
makes a big difference.

....


Now you're really reaching.   ::)

Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 12:33:23 am
Hi,

Weather sealing is definitively an advantage although most of have used unsealed equipment under wet conditions without issues.

Those 6 Canon 5DII that failed on the LuLa Artic expedition had improved wether sealing, so it obviously does not always help.

Best regards
Erik


Now you're really reaching.   ::)


Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 26, 2013, 01:13:40 am
Hi,

Weather sealing is definitively an advantage although most of have used unsealed equipment under wet conditions without issues.

Those 6 Canon 5DII that failed on the LuLa Artic expedition had improved wether sealing, so it obviously does not always help.

Best regards
Erik



I had the Canon 5D II. It is not close to the weather sealing Pentax has and canon does not claim to have it.
Not to mention the the Canon 5D is not designed for ruggedness as the 1 series EOS cameras are.
If I were going to the arctic I would use 1 series cameras, not a 5D II
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 02:29:45 am
Sorry, my fault, I should have expressed me better!

I clearly feel that wether sealing is an advantage. On the other hand vendors say that they have improved weather sealing and I am quite clear that Canon has made that claim for the 5DII.

My understanding is that correct wether sealing needs to be designed into the camera "bottom up" and that Pentax and Olympus do that on some models.

Michael's summary of the 2009 expedition.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/antarctica-2009-worked.shtml


Best regards
Erik



I had the Canon 5D II. It is not close to the weather sealing Pentax has and canon does not claim to have it.
Not to mention the the Canon 5D is not designed for ruggedness as the 1 series EOS cameras are.
If I were going to the arctic I would use 1 series cameras, not a 5D II
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Scotty-S on March 26, 2013, 07:11:24 am
This is all great feedback.  Thanks.

So in choosing to go with medium format, can I assume that I will get less depth of field at the same aperture as 35mm FF.

So that means stopping the lens down quite a bit more to achieve sharpness through the frame, for example f/16-f/22

Are the lenses still performing well at these apertures?

Scott
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken R on March 26, 2013, 08:16:51 am
This is all great feedback.  Thanks.

So in choosing to go with medium format, can I assume that I will get less depth of field at the same aperture as 35mm FF.

So that means stopping the lens down quite a bit more to achieve sharpness through the frame, for example f/16-f/22

Are the lenses still performing well at these apertures?

Scott

From what I have been able to gather online Id say with the larger format one can stop down about 1 stop more without seeing diffraction but obviously this varies with each optic. In 35mm full frame DSLRs most lenses I have perform best at f8 but sometimes I stop down to f11 to increased DOF and have not noticed much decrease in sharpness if anything. So on MF Digital f16 should be ok.

Regarding weather sealing, when working in the field its a good feature to have. I know that on many landscape shoots, waiting for a sunrise or sunset, with the camera set on tripod I have had to endure light rain and or mist. I always try to cover the camera obviously but inevitably moisture will get on top of my gear. In several occasions I was working in 32 deg. weather and 100% humidity and condensation and even some frost was sticking to EVERYTHING. I had the camera set for a sunrise and didnt want to move it. I covered it with a cloth but still moisture was everywhere.

Sure MANY amazing images have been made in similar conditions with technical cameras and digital backs which is obviously a system that is not weather sealed at all. But, Phase One backs are the choice of most landscape photographers using tech cameras for a reason. They are extremely reliable under tough environmental conditions.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: tsjanik on March 26, 2013, 08:52:55 am
Clearly weather sealing isn't essential, but it's certainly nice to have.  I once lost a Canon camera to a leaking water bottle; user error for sure, but weather sealing would have prevented the loss.  Here's an example taken during 2-3 in/hr snowfall.  I was using a K-5 and would not have attempted this shot with an unsealed camera.



Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Iluvmycam on March 26, 2013, 09:20:39 am
I have 2 - 645D's. Have 9 lenses for it. All superb. But there are some lenses that are not as good as others.

If I had to do it again, I'd possibly buy D800's and not the 645D's. But, if the D800 would not produce the 'dreamy photo quality' of the MF, then no D800 as a replacment for MF.

(http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/Misc/lr1_zps19b0e38a.jpg)

Shot in harsh, direct sunlight. No flash, no reflectors, no diffusers...just 645D  and PP. The MF can offer a beautiful look to it that I have not seen in the FF DSLR's. (But I may be wrong as my experience is limited.) I would not want aything bigger than the 40mp. Enough hassle dealing with that size image.

OP, why do you you need above 40mp? Do you suffer from the mp envy disease? Stitch 2 - 40 mp 645d images together if you like.

I do lots of street pix. My favorite cam is a 12 mp m43. Some of the 'know it alls' here scoffed at my rec of the m43 as the 'greatest street cam on earth.' Many of my m43 street pix are in museums in the US and some overseas. But the 'know it alls' must know better.

I use all type of gear. I took this at a dump site last year. A lady was wandering around with her kid and I asked her to sit in the tub with crud in it. Shot with a 6mp RDs1 with a Zeiss 21mm.

(http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/Copyright2012DTJ_zps4c9e6c4b.jpg)

It makes a nice 13 x 19. Will go to 16 x 20, but that is all the 6 mp will do. In high res, you can count the pores in her leg, so it is sharp enough. This is a low res 170kb image and a lot of the sharpness is gone.

How many of you guys are still shooting 6mp?

Here is the bottom line...

You don't make giant prints...you don't care about the 'MF dreamy look'...you don't need MF cams.


Good luck with your MF choice!
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 26, 2013, 09:39:59 am
Hi,

Weather sealing is definitively an advantage although most of have used unsealed equipment under wet conditions without issues.

Those 6 Canon 5DII that failed on the LuLa Artic expedition had improved wether sealing, so it obviously does not always help.

Best regards
Erik



Since really we're talking about "MF Choices"-----sooooooo how'd all those Phase MFDBs and Phase cameras (And Hassy) do in Antarctica??

Let's talk actual users of MFDBs.  The internet forums are always full of the squeeky wheels (no offense to those who suffer from ailing equipment).  I just don't hear of the horror stories of failing MFDBs from the elements.  If there are any "horror" stories it's more from user error, and no amount of weather sealing would have prevented the mishap.  Gosh---anybody with all this horrible dust inside their 55LS from a lack of marketing BS weather sealing??   ::)

ken

p.s.  That 2009 Antarctica trip was during the Phase One P+ series generation MFDBs.  IMO, the current IQ series is "improved" with it's battery more shielded from the elements.

Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 10:13:15 am
Hi,


No issues with Phase One backs as far as I can recall.

Best regards
Erik


Since really we're talking about "MF Choices"-----sooooooo how'd all those Phase MFDBs and Phase cameras (And Hassy) do in Antarctica??

Let's talk actual users of MFDBs.  The internet forums are always full of the squeeky wheels (no offense to those who suffer from ailing equipment).  I just don't hear of the horror stories of failing MFDBs from the elements.  If there are any "horror" stories it's more from user error, and no amount of weather sealing would have prevented the mishap.  Gosh---anybody with all this horrible dust inside their 55LS from a lack of marketing BS weather sealing??   ::)

ken

p.s.  That 2009 Antarctica trip was during the Phase One P+ series generation MFDBs.  IMO, the current IQ series is "improved" with it's battery more shielded from the elements.


Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Jeffery Salter on March 26, 2013, 10:25:29 am
Scotty.  I will give it to you straight.  I have (1) P40+ back on a 645DF camera.  I use the camera on my commercial assignments and magazine work.  However when business is slow I like to travel.  Here is a photograph from my personal series.  It's called Sacred waters, shot in Haiti, one year after the recent earthquake.

This photo was taken with a P40+ on a 645DF camera, at 2.8 on 80mm SK LS lens. (handheld at 1/80)  I used a strobe to pop it a bit.  So yes the Phase one cameras and Digital backs do very well in water, spray conditions.  I don't baby my gear.

The photos from this series I been in several galleries.  Printed about 44 x 60.  I always believe it's important to capture at the highest quality when you can.  You can easily resize in photoshop for smaller usage.  

Thank you,
Jeffery


(http://www.jefferysalter.com/FTP/Salter_071410_170.jpg)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 11:06:40 am
Hi,

You get diffraction, so you need more sharpening which increases noise, so you need more noise reduction. Diffraction looses contrast, mostly fine detail contrast. Diffraction responds well to deconvolution type sharpening.

Also, diffraction is a function of aperture and pixel size, so small pixels loose more than larger pixels.

Best regards
Erik


This is all great feedback.  Thanks.

So in choosing to go with medium format, can I assume that I will get less depth of field at the same aperture as 35mm FF.

So that means stopping the lens down quite a bit more to achieve sharpness through the frame, for example f/16-f/22

Are the lenses still performing well at these apertures?

Scott
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 26, 2013, 11:17:29 am
I have taught about 18 workshops all over the country and mostly with Phase One gear. From every back they have made folks attend these workshops in all kinds of conditions not once did anyone ever go down because of moisture, rain, water and or cold. Sure in the cold we have had some battery slowdowns and short life and the famous DF battery issue which is pretty much a non issue now. We always recommend some protection in case we do get caught in some really bad weather which no one would want to shoot anyway. But garbage bags are usually in the vehicles and pretty much everyone has at least a cheap 2 gallon zip lock bag. I did a 50 year flood shooting for 2 days in pouring rain with my P40 and DF in a 2 gallon zip lock bag. Worked a charm. Photography is and always will be dealing with workarounds. Sure weather sealing is a nice option but really would you stick your 30k of gear in the rain without some protection even with weather sealing. You'd be a freaking idiot to trust any BS weather sealing marketing when your 30k is on the line. I would never trust weather sealing without some kind of protection anyway. Lets talk reality here. Im not going to risk thousands of dollars on gear when a .10 cent plastic bag is handy. They do sell more eloquent weather protection covers from many companies. Just watch any Pro sport game with video cams all over the stadium. They all have weather protection raincoats on them.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 02:38:25 pm
Hi,

I got the impression that Phase One backs are built like a tank. Still if you check the specs, they probably say between zero and 40 Celsius.

Good equipment seems to take a lot of punishment, but there are no warranties. It is important that a vendor stands firmly behind the customer when in need. Obviously they cannot work miracles, but they can at least give it a try!

Sometimes that fails. The Hasselblad zoom falling apart for Michael Reichmann in Namibia was a good example, and he was not alone. The six 5DIIs that failed on Antartica were not handled very well by Canon. That incident led to my best friend not buying a 5DII.

Best regards
Erik


I have taught about 18 workshops all over the country and mostly with Phase One gear. From every back they have made folks attend these workshops in all kinds of conditions not once did anyone ever go down because of moisture, rain, water and or cold. Sure in the cold we have had some battery slowdowns and short life and the famous DF battery issue which is pretty much a non issue now. We always recommend some protection in case we do get caught in some really bad weather which no one would want to shoot anyway. But garbage bags are usually in the vehicles and pretty much everyone has at least a cheap 2 gallon zip lock bag. I did a 50 year flood shooting for 2 days in pouring rain with my P40 and DF in a 2 gallon zip lock bag. Worked a charm. Photography is and always will be dealing with workarounds. Sure weather sealing is a nice option but really would you stick your 30k of gear in the rain without some protection even with weather sealing. You'd be a freaking idiot to trust any BS weather sealing marketing when your 30k is on the line. I would never trust weather sealing without some kind of protection anyway. Lets talk reality here. Im not going to risk thousands of dollars on gear when a .10 cent plastic bag is handy. They do sell more eloquent weather protection covers from many companies. Just watch any Pro sport game with video cams all over the stadium. They all have weather protection raincoats on them.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 26, 2013, 03:11:04 pm
Everything will fail at some point. I agree having someone stand behind there product is great but that's also false insurance to rely singular on that. These are reasons we buy from dealers and get all risk insurance plans not to mention some sort of backups and a plan B. you really have to protect yourself since not one single coverage is good enough. OEM may not be able to help in some regards but a dealer may have a temporary fix though. I look at these things as if this goes south I turn here. But if something else goes south I may go a different route. This goes for all systems and yes piss poor luck seeing 5 Canons go down and a Hassy lens falling apart. No question that sucks. Some things are rare and let's say the Hassy lens was one of those but the Canons given the numbers than it maybe a production , design issue. But believe me Canon sells so much that 5 going down may not get them off there seat but more like 500 they would actually react. I know sucks for the 5 guys but when your that big it's a very small number to them. Not condoning anything but sometimes that is just the way it is.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 03:34:54 pm
Hi,

The point is:

Michael found fifteen owners of the same lens falling apart. Hasselblad's response was essentially that lens should not be carried pointing down and that the owners were at fault. They could just repaired the lenses as goodwill and got appreciation for good service, but that was not their choice.

Canon could have said, sorry, and replaced the failed cameras. Now, the message they sent out was that 5DIIs are expected to fail under mild arctic conditions. All other stuff, and there was plenty of it worked.

Best regards
Erik




Everything will fail at some point. I agree having someone stand behind there product is great but that's also false insurance to rely singular on that. These are reasons we buy from dealers and get all risk insurance plans not to mention some sort of backups and a plan B. you really have to protect yourself since not one single coverage is good enough. OEM may not be able to help in some regards but a dealer may have a temporary fix though. I look at these things as if this goes south I turn here. But if something else goes south I may go a different route. This goes for all systems and yes piss poor luck seeing 5 Canons go down and a Hassy lens falling apart. No question that sucks. Some things are rare and let's say the Hassy lens was one of those but the Canons given the numbers than it maybe a production , design issue. But believe me Canon sells so much that 5 going down may not get them off there seat but more like 500 they would actually react. I know sucks for the 5 guys but when your that big it's a very small number to them. Not condoning anything but sometimes that is just the way it is.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 26, 2013, 04:02:26 pm
Typical corporate response and you should know this is don't admit to anything unless you have no choice. LOL

Having said that I don't disagree with you as we as consumers expect a lot better service, companies don't always see it there customers way though. I don't own either Canon nor Hassy so I'm one less customer for both. Maybe a reason for that but I do not like Canon for many reasons but I have no beef with them and certainly not Hassy either. But on the same hand I do not trust any of these systems at the end of the day. Shit happens and all we can do is try and protect ourselves. Anyway this is OT to question at hand. And these threads spin around in many directions which I hate to see but there are 4 systems out there to look at and 2 of them are fixed sensors to a body and if anyone thought having a tech cam as a extra possibility neither one would work so than your down to 2 systems. I used Phase gear a long time , had 5 backs and multiple lenses and bodies. It's what I recommend as its always been top gear for me and pretty much been free from issues and the many people i have taught or been around that own them. I don't recommend Hassy, Leica or Pentax as I never owned them and I refuse to talk about gear I never fully used, tested or owned. That's me though.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: JV on March 26, 2013, 06:39:08 pm
Michael found fifteen owners of the same lens falling apart. Hasselblad's response was essentially that lens should not be carried pointing down and that the owners were at fault. They could just repaired the lenses as goodwill and got appreciation for good service, but that was not their choice.

Erik,

This is obviously wrong from Hasselblad.  It sounds like they launched a product that was not ready yet and that they did not take responsibility for it.

That being said, what is the relevance of repeating the same story over and over again?

THIS WAS SEVEN YEARS AGO!!!

I own the same lens.  It works fine.  It doesn't fall apart.

I have used Hasselblad service in New Jersey 3 times in the last 3 years.  Excellent and very fast service!  I wish all companies provided the same level of service as Hasselblad.

Whenever I need a part I just email Nicole and she sends it to me.  Again very easy and good service.

What I am trying to say is that this was yesterday's news.  Let's move on. 

If you through your personal experience with Hasselblad have similar stories to share about the present please do share.  These would be very relevant for people making new MF choices.

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on March 26, 2013, 07:14:25 pm
I have used Hasselblad service in New Jersey 3 times in the last 3 years.  Excellent and very fast service!  I wish all companies provided the same level of service as Hasselblad.

+1
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 26, 2013, 07:42:56 pm
I have used Hasselblad service in New Jersey 3 times in the last 3 years.  Excellent and very fast service!  I wish all companies provided the same level of service as Hasselblad.

I have always found Hasselblad service to be excellent.
Recently sent a 110mm F2 in for an iris replacement and cleaning. Very fast turnaround and very reasonable.
Particularly good considering it was discontinued quite a while ago. I had it back in two weeks including shipping.
Nice to deal with them directly too.

Similar experience years ago in Europe to.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 27, 2013, 09:55:40 am
The Pentax while a nice system does not allow upgrade of the back without purchasing a new body, as well.
So something to consider when choosing.


Phase One, while allowing you to purchase a more expensive back, does not give you an updated body with it.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 27, 2013, 09:59:51 am
Sounds like you've really fallen for all this medium format digital marketing BS.   :o   ;D

I shoot "seascapes" and around water all the time.  (Carmel, Monterey, PG, Big Sur is my backyard).  In over ten years of shooting with MFDBs, I've never had an issue arise from "weather" and using my Phase bodies and Phase One MFDBs.  It just take a bit of common sense.  Most all cameras despite the lack of weather sealing marketing, can perform surprisingly well during inclement weather, with a bit of care and common sense.  Here's a short article and image of my Cambo WRS with IQ180, a bit soaked from photographing Lower Proxy Falls in Oregon:  http://kendoophotography.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/photographing-oregon-with-the-cambo-wrs1050-and-phase-iq180/   I've had my Phase DF in worse conditions photographing along Shi Shi Beach in Washington.  It's simply not a problem if you use a bit of care and common sense.  If the weather gets any worse, it's just not fun anymore.   ;)

Sorry, but this is silly. Given a choice, I would like my body weather sealed. Yes, I have used plenty of cameras in bad weather, but I have used the 645D in a blizzard with snow melting and then freezing on the body. I don't think I would do that with another MFD camera.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 27, 2013, 10:01:48 am
This is all great feedback.  Thanks.

So in choosing to go with medium format, can I assume that I will get less depth of field at the same aperture as 35mm FF.

So that means stopping the lens down quite a bit more to achieve sharpness through the frame, for example f/16-f/22

Are the lenses still performing well at these apertures?

Scott

Yes. I shoot the 645D at f/16 often and you can get great results. I have also shot at f/22 and the prints are also very nice. I am making 4' to 5' prints from these.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 27, 2013, 10:10:15 am
Also, diffraction is a function of aperture and pixel size, so small pixels loose more than larger pixels.

Best regards
Erik



Actually, this is false. In the final image, you simply are getting higher frequency detail with a format with a higher pixel resolution--read: smaller pixels. The diffraction just effects this detail first, but in the perception of the image, the loss is not greater in the smaller pixel image and you are still getting more information. 100% monitor views are deceptive.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: yaya on March 27, 2013, 10:11:47 am
I have used the 645D in a blizzard with snow melting and then freezing on the body. I don't think I would do that with another MFD camera.

"Low miles, from a lady doctor, never taken off road, never raced, never ridden in the rain and always stored in a garage..." ;)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 27, 2013, 10:15:38 am
"Low miles, from a lady doctor, never taken off road, never raced, never ridden in the rain and always stored in a garage..." ;)

I am not ready to sell my camera yet, but when the times comes, this is just the copy I need! I am a creative photographer after all.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 27, 2013, 10:33:28 am
Sorry, but this is silly. Given a choice, I would like my body weather sealed. Yes, I have used plenty of cameras in bad weather, but I have used the 645D in a blizzard with snow melting and then freezing on the body. I don't think I would do that with another MFD camera.

I'm not saying "weather resistance" isn't a good idea.  Nor should it be assumed that because it isn't marketed as such that protection from the elements hasn't been included in the design of the equipment.  Phase One MFDBs are built well to operate in the extremes.  If anything, they are over-engineered.  And aside from the errant marketing of an elephant stepping on a Phase MFDB  ;D, they have an established history of photographers using Phase MFDBs successfully under all conditions.  Failure to work because of the elements isn't a shortcoming of Phase One.  It just works.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 27, 2013, 10:45:44 am
Ken, you are right. To a certain extent, every camera is sealed from the environment. Whether weather sealing is the tipping point of a purchase, I am not sure--that is to do with the photographer. Spending a great deal of time in bad weather, it is important for me, but there are other factors that are more important. I have certainly used cameras outdoors in less that ideal conditions. But when I was looking for an MFD camera, I must admit matching the specs of the 645D to the Mamiya DF, the Pentax as a package was very attractive and the weather-sealing thing was a really nice touch.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 27, 2013, 10:50:54 am
I'm more apt to call it quits because of the elements before any of the current medium format digital offerings...   ;D
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: tsjanik on March 27, 2013, 10:56:37 am
I'm not saying "weather resistance" isn't a good idea.  Nor should it be assumed that because it isn't marketed as such that protection from the elements hasn't been included in the design of the equipment.  Phase One MFDBs are built well to operate in the extremes.  If anything, they are over-engineered.  And aside from the errant marketing of an elephant stepping on a Phase MFDB  ;D, they have an established history of photographers using Phase MFDBs successfully under all conditions.  Failure to work because of the elements isn't a shortcoming of Phase One.  It just works.

Ken:

I've never used a Phase one, but I've seen enough of your posts to accept your word on how well they are built. 
Although weather sealing isn't essential, I disagree that it can be dismissed as marketing hype (not directed at you, but I have seen it stated).  I have been driving for years and have yet to need my seat belt or air bag, but I'm glad I have them.

Here's quote from another forum (link below) describing an experience with the 645D and the 35mm A (old lens, not sealed):

"Well, today there is a heavy wet snow that made things rather interesting. I have used this camera in all kinds of weather. Hot, cold, wet and snow. Today was my first real test though. Slipped and fell into a muddy, gooey, icy creek and dunked the camera but good!. Although really pissed, wet, cold and mud encrusted ( both me and the camera), I shook the camera off and took it the nearest place to rinse the mud off. Well, the camera is fine, but the 35A did not fair as well. The lens will need professional cleaning to get the silt out of the focus mechanism. BUT, that camera is just bullet proof! I continued to photograph with it and it works great. Can't say as much for the iPhone that was in my back pocket. Anyway, you can really use these things as very reliable tools. I just gotta be more careful! Ray"

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/217097-opinions-645d-general-use-2.html

Tom
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 27, 2013, 08:10:36 pm
Ken:

I've never used a Phase one, but I've seen enough of your posts to accept your word on how well they are built.  
Although weather sealing isn't essential, I disagree that it can be dismissed as marketing hype (not directed at you, but I have seen it stated).  I have been driving for years and have yet to need my seat belt or air bag, but I'm glad I have them.

Here's quote from another forum (link below) describing an experience with the 645D and the 35mm A (old lens, not sealed):

"Well, today there is a heavy wet snow that made things rather interesting. I have used this camera in all kinds of weather. Hot, cold, wet and snow. Today was my first real test though. Slipped and fell into a muddy, gooey, icy creek and dunked the camera but good!. Although really pissed, wet, cold and mud encrusted ( both me and the camera), I shook the camera off and took it the nearest place to rinse the mud off. Well, the camera is fine, but the 35A did not fair as well. The lens will need professional cleaning to get the silt out of the focus mechanism. BUT, that camera is just bullet proof! I continued to photograph with it and it works great. Can't say as much for the iPhone that was in my back pocket. Anyway, you can really use these things as very reliable tools. I just gotta be more careful! Ray"

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/217097-opinions-645d-general-use-2.html

Tom

Tom, I agree with you completely.  Weather resistance/protection/build all have value, and I don't doubt the Pentax engineers did very well with the 645D.  But at the same time this doesn't mean that the Phase One is devoid of protection either.  Would I mind if Phase added in a few more gaskets?  No, of course not (they'd probably charge us another arm too :o)  But it also doesn't mean I'm going to forgo using common sense or that hotel shower cap and towel I keep in my pack either.  In other words, even if I had the Pentax 645D in my kit, I'd still treat it to a nice toweling and a shower cap.   ;D    

But what I do mind is that for whatever reason or personal bias that which seems to parallel obsessive compulsive regularity, takes "weather resistance" to an extreme making claims such as "weather sealing is not only about disaster prevention it is also about maintaining optimal image quality. Very fine dust creeps into non weather sealed lenses this can lead to a loss in sharpness and contrast as well as slowly degrading the precision of the mechanical parts that include LS, iris and focusing threads. The lenses pump back and forward moving this fine dust even into the body where it can get on the AF sensor and mirror mechanisms."

That's just silly. (Not you Tom, that's not your analysis either!  ;))  And I seriously doubt this is what the Pentax 645D engineers had in mind when they talk weather resistance.  

ken
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: tsjanik on March 27, 2013, 10:21:03 pm
...............................  In other words, even if I had the Pentax 645D in my kit, I'd still treat it to a nice toweling and a shower cap.   ;D 
......................ken

Agreed.   I have I have a zip lock bag :) ; you'll note in the photo I posted above, taken in a snowstorm, I used a K-5 (I can afford to risk it), not a 645D.

Tom
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 29, 2013, 12:07:29 am
KEn Doo I really don't understand why you have to contradict everything I write even if it's in favor of something.

Anyone with half a brain would understand that a camera without weather sealing is more prone to contamination of one sort or another.

Here is some info from a repair facility:

Quote
Sand can cause devastating effects on a camera.  
Sand gets deep inside and throughout the systems --- from the tape deck to the outer parts of the lens.  
When sand gets inside, it seriously affects moving parts.
This is usually signaled by grinding, grating and cranking in the manual and auto controls, lens and other mechanical parts.
If the sand has not caused permanent damage, tedious work and time is required to clean and restore the unit.

Quote
If you have sand contamination in your camera, it may be likely that there are also salt grains inside the camera.
Unfortunately salt can cause all of the damage mentioned earlier, and more. You can operate the camera with a sand incursion and live with annoying grinding sounds and malfunctions.
 However salt saturation is different.
It will lead to rust, corrosion, oxidation, decomposition and decay of electronics parts and printed boards.
Acting as a conductor, salt will sometimes short the circuits and cause many types of errors.

The more protection the better.
While I treat my cameras with respect and care when working it's a pain in the ass to be limited by having to pamper a camera.
It's also nice to avoid my assistants on location having to work overtime dusting out cameras.

People tout the advantage of being able to clean a MFDB sensor.. well if particulates are getting on the sensor there is more dust getting on other parts of a MFD SLR.
After all the sensor is behind the shutter for all but short exposure times.

If dust is getting in so it fine sea mist at the beach when it's windy, as are fine sand particles.

IF we consider how high the quality of a MFD camera is .. it's enough quality to satisfy customers for a long time. Avoiding particulate infiltration
will keep quality closer to what it's like when new.

THIS is the reason why many manufacturers put so much importance into weather sealing. And contrary to what Guy says it's not marketing BS.

(http://d800.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/nikon-d800-weather-sealed-back.jpg)

(http://d800.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/nikon-d800-weather-sealed-front.jpg)

(http://pentax2u.com/webshaper/pcm/pictures/Products/Pentax/645D/Pentax-645D-Feature-3.jpg)

(http://pentax2u.com/webshaper/pcm/pictures/Products/Pentax/645D/Pentax-645D-Feature.jpg)

(http://canonlensblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Canon-EOS-1D-X-alloy-body-and-weather-sealing-1024x531.jpg)

No bullshit. The seals are there.


Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 29, 2013, 12:29:06 am
The main thing with weather sealing is piece of mind when the going gets tough.

It is like 4x4 for cars. A good driver will mostly be able to do without it, but many drivers will think twice before taking their 100,000 US$ BMW M5 up an icy col for sunrise.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 29, 2013, 12:58:26 am
KEn Doo I really don't understand why you have to contradict everything I write even if it's in favor of something.

Anyone with half a brain would understand that a camera without weather sealing is more prone to contamination of one sort or another.

Here is some info from a repair facility:

The more protection the better.
While I treat my cameras with respect and care when working it's a pain in the ass to be limited by having to pamper a camera.
It's also nice to avoid my assistants on location having to work overtime dusting out cameras.

People tout the advantage of being able to clean a MFDB sensor.. well if particulates are getting on the sensor there is more dust getting on other parts of a MFD SLR.
After all the sensor is behind the shutter for all but short exposure times.

If dust is getting in so it fine sea mist at the beach when it's windy, as are fine sand particles.

IF we consider how high the quality of a MFD camera is .. it's enough quality to satisfy customers for a long time. Avoiding particulate infiltration
will keep quality closer to what it's like when new.

THIS is the reason why many manufacturers put so much importance into weather sealing. And contrary to what Guy says it's not marketing BS.

(http://d800.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/nikon-d800-weather-sealed-back.jpg)

(http://d800.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/nikon-d800-weather-sealed-front.jpg)

(http://pentax2u.com/webshaper/pcm/pictures/Products/Pentax/645D/Pentax-645D-Feature-3.jpg)

(http://pentax2u.com/webshaper/pcm/pictures/Products/Pentax/645D/Pentax-645D-Feature.jpg)

(http://canonlensblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Canon-EOS-1D-X-alloy-body-and-weather-sealing-1024x531.jpg)

No bullshit. The seals are there.




Seriously this begs the question if weather sealing is important to you why in the hell would you be so stupid to buy into a phase system to begin with. Talk about contradiction

Btw you Nikon is not totally water sealed either . I own one and it has no chance in hell if I poured water on a few key areas. One for instance is your card slot door. What you have neglected here is water sippage . Water will get past just about everything . Having water sealing is a nice thing to have no one is saying any diffrent but it is also a marketing tool as well and you are paying for it. Sorry all these years and I live in the freaking desert have I ever had sand or water damage. I shot all over the world in many situations, guess that means shit along with all the Phase, leaf, Hassy and Sinar folks as well.  Guess if we listened to all that repair advice we should all send our cams in for sensor cleaning as well. Fred you speak of BS marketing from Leaf and Phase, but you neglected to mention all the BS marketing in the whole industry. The issue here is we as experienced photographers see past it all but the young and inexperienced fall for the same repair advice so the service centers can actually make a living. It's all around you get a freaking clue stop isolating MF as the bad guy. Canon/Nikon are just as happy to take your money with a smile on there face.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 29, 2013, 01:06:45 am
The main thing with weather sealing is piece of mind when the going gets tough.

It is like 4x4 for cars. A good driver will mostly be able to do without it, but many drivers will think twice before taking their 100,000 US$ BMW M5 up an icy col for sunrise.

Cheers,
Bernard


Really give me the keys Ill drive it up in reverse. Bad analogy, this is gear we as working Pros will do just about anything with it if the gig is paying well to do it. This is about money and no one worth salt will go oh gee I can't do that job because I don't have weather sealing.

Weather sealing would never be better than good common sense. Drop it in the ocean , nothing will save it. LOL
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: jerome_m on March 29, 2013, 04:20:02 am
Weather sealing would never be better than good common sense. Drop it in the ocean , nothing will save it. LOL

Now seems just the right time to cite yesterday's news: camera lost in Hawaii washes up on Taiwan beach after 5 years (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/diving-camera-washes-up-in-taiwan-five-years-after-it-was-lost-at-sea/story-e6frfq80-1226606406536) (alternative (http://singaporeseen.stomp.com.sg/stomp/sgseen/this_urban_jungle/1672904/camera_lost_in_sea_in_hawaii_washes_up_in_taiwan.html)).
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: bcooter on March 29, 2013, 05:46:45 am
I deliberitly dont read every person who  responds, so I don't know where this weather sealing thing came from, but I guess it's probably the usual "wonderful" attributes of 35mm, maybe even a nod to the Pentax  and saying traditional medium format is not as good, regardless of what the original thread's intent is.

That's seems to be all this forum has been about for what seems like forever.

Anyway, real life real use, my digital backs are not fragile.

I've used them in the summer in Brazil, Jamaica and Dallas (Jamaica won as even the strobes started blowing and we had to put duct tape over the open outlets) but I only had a slight issue with the leaf back, but it wasn't overheating, it was a bum cf card.   We still shot the gig with the Aptus.

This was Jamaica
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/assafa_small.jpg)

I've used them in the winter in Moscow (twice), Seoul (twice), Chicago (3 times), New York (more times than I remember) and no issues.

I've shot them in the dust of El Mirage (that's dust) and in Brazil and Mexico.  Once in the Texas plains and man that's really dust.

In fact the only repair I've had on my digital cameras is two Nikon mounts came loose (dcs 760/F5) and D3.   Lost 4 shutters on Canon 1 series cameras and one sensor.

My Phase backs have gone around the world twice and never gone in for repair.  My Contax for 2 repairs, both shutter related, both user error where someone put a thumb through the rear curtain.

My Aptus went in twice once for a bad lcd and once for a digital board, both fixed and returned in three days, door to door.

Shooting an ad series north of miami, with our p30+ I got hit by a wave that submerged me, moved me at least 5 feet and slammed me into the reef, I was completely wet head to toe and we dried the camera Phase/Contax off and kept shooting.  I used the camera 6 minutes later and still use them today.

This was about 15 seconds before the big wave hit me.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/smack.jpg)

Now I'm not claiming it's weather sealed but I do know my digital backs are reliable and very, very strong and I sure as hell don't baby them.

In fairness I've shot a trillion more frames with the Canons than medium format, but I don't think 35mm is one bit tougher than the medium format backs.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 29, 2013, 06:09:07 am
I know the P series well. Owned a P25. Built like a little tank.

However it is far from weather sealed. Just one look at the memory card slot.
The cover doesn't even have a latch on it and it's just a metal flap without any seal at all.
The front that mounts on the camera has no seal protecting the spring loaded contacts, however the sensor cover that comes with the back
 tp keep the sensor covered when it's off the camera does have a seal to keep the sensor clean.

Submerged in a salt water wave that overwhelmed a photographer slamming him into a reef........
Anyone who has surfed knows that a wave like that will push water and the fine sand in the surf into every little hole, nook and cranny.

Just take a look at the memory card slot and cover on a P series back and then envision this:

Shooting an ad series north of miami, with our p30+ I got hit by a wave that submerged me, moved me at least 5 feet and slammed me into the reef, I was completely wet head to toe and we dried the camera Phase/Contax off and kept shooting.  I used the camera 6 minutes later and still use them today.

Submerged, dragged 5 feet in a crashing wave full of the fine sand and slammed into a reef.... and no water got in.

If both did survive this it can only be attributed to a very large dose of good luck....

I know the Contax 645. It's not weather sealed. Just looking at the prism. It has no seal.

(http://www.getdpi.com/forum/attachments/gear-fs-wtb/60717d1341455995t-fs-contax-645-body-ae-prism-film-back-583337457_o.jpg)

Not to mention contacts very close to the seperation of body and prism.

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCMNeZT6PiNS9UZUB6z1yxg3TT7ZBxZyIPBYKDUYL5Tquoys-C)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: yaya on March 29, 2013, 08:56:34 am
BC you're lucky Phase don't use tape anymore in their camera as you could have lost all those Cyndi Lauper tracks....
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 29, 2013, 09:07:21 am
Fred, do you ever change lenses on location?  If so, how? 

And please dont tell me you use a zoom lens.  For someone that is so hell bent on IQ and explaining why the Nikon sensor out performs any MF sensor, if I found out you used a zoom instead of primes, I think I would vomit.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken Doo on March 29, 2013, 09:33:00 am
The problem is Fred, you're so entrenched in your personal bias that you're unable to accept any other position.  Your way is the only rational way.  I'd tell you to re-read my posts, but you'd fail to grasp any understanding.  You simply like to argue----a most argumentative person that's gotta have the last google word.  I notice you also like to go back into your old posts to either change context or take another dig.  The point being here is that you've got a lot of actual users of MFDBs---users that have had their backs more than a few months; shot their MFDBs more than 562 frames; actually figured out how to use the system; and, *egads* if they had any problems knew they could call a dealer for help because they knew that Ebay isn't a certified dealer. 

And no one has reported problems attributed to "weather sealing."

And again, go back and read s-l-o-w-l-y, I'm not saying weather resistance isn't a good thing, it is.  But it doesn't mean throw caution to the wind.  It still means using a bit of common sense, imo.

 :-* ken

p.s.  How do you like the weather sealing in your old Fuji GX680?  I'm sure with the lack of weather seals the dust must be pouring out like sand and the loss in sharpness and contrast must be horrible...   ::)  (that's sarcasm btw)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Don Libby on March 29, 2013, 01:25:02 pm
Ken - you should know by know not to argue with a person who has his mind set and his head in the sand.  I will say it's strange that for someone who has repeatedly trashed one camera manufacture's advertizing claims as being false and misleading is now drinking the Kool-Aid over seals and weather-sealing; unless there's more than the normal amount of Googling going on and he's actually stripped a body.....
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: bcooter on March 29, 2013, 01:55:27 pm
You really can't carry on any conversation here without it becoming an argument about cameras.

This nice Forum has become DP review with google links.

Nobody can ask a simple question of why would someone buy a Pentax or a Hasselblad, because nearly EVERY conversation is moved towards any reason to diss certain brands and formats.

I don't care about the Nikon, I'll bet you Phase One doesn't care about the Nikon and I think Fred is the only person that thinks the Nikon is a 100% replacement for his briefly owned medium format camera and back.

What I've learned is there is no reason to post anything anymore because it's going to be hijacked or get in a pissing match where someone calls you a liar.

It's silly high school stuff that I file under "who gives a shit".

What I've come to realize is Fred and I are not in the same business.

We both own cameras but that where the similarity stops.

I'm in the get up in the morning, take a dozen e-mails from clients, then bust ass in the photography business for about 15 hours to make 100% of our household income. (This statement only works is you say it real fast).

I don't have any idea what money making enterprise Fred is in.

I know I've used all my cameras in all kind of conditions and if something breaks I figure that's the price of doing biz and though I send my cameras in to have them checked out, I don't baby them, wrap them in plastic, or treat them like fine china.  

Still the key statement is I've used all formats for a long time in all conditions.

This was shot in controlled conditions with the (gasp) p30+ and  water was everywhere.  Other than cleaning the lens from time to time, nothing else was done, the camera didn't break, black helicopters didn't attack.

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/swim_water_dallas.jpg)

All I know is lately this place has become zero fun.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: tho_mas on March 29, 2013, 02:15:04 pm

All I know is lately this place has become zero fun.

IMO

BC
sadly that's true...
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Don Libby on March 29, 2013, 02:15:16 pm
In my mind there's a difference between weather-resistant, weather-proof and waterproof.  

The question I ask myself when shooting landscape is to what degree of weather am I capable of shooting and a, get the image, b, be safe at the time and c, do it without damaging my equipment.  In almost every case I gave up way before my equipment did either from the sweat poring into my eyes or loosing feeling in my fingers from the cold.

I've shot at the beach a couple feet from the surf where I could feel the spray hitting me and the camera.  The camera body (a Mamiya 645) got dripping wet as did the lens I was using.  My glasses were so wet that at one point I couldn't see out of them.  I ended up draping a towel over the body and lens and had no trouble what so ever.  The only problem I had that day was dropping the camera and head still attached off the tripod shoulder height (remember I'm 6-9) onto the sandy beach on the way out.  Sand was everywhere.  After I cleaned everything up and found the reason for the tripod failure I cleaned my underwear and kept shooting.

I've said this before however will repeat it one more time.  I am primarily a landscape/nature photographer which means my "studio" is outdoors in the elements.  I shoot in all types of weather and environments from hot, windy, sandy Death Valley to hot humidity in the Everglades and over to extremely cold, windy snowy Grand Canyon, Yellowstone and Jackson Hole WY.  I've shot at a base of a waterfall in Yosemite where the lens was totally wet; the only environment I haven't shot in is underwater.   My primary gear includes a Phase DF with prime lens and a Cambo WRS tech camera both connected to a Phase One digital back.

Cooter responded as I was writing this -

BC - I totally agree with everything you've stated. This site has gotten to the point that I ask myself why should I continue then I remember the bullies in high-school and remember that bullies need to be put in their place. Keep banging that drum bud!
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 29, 2013, 02:23:53 pm
Man that was a mouthful and so true it's scary. Seriously its hard for those looking to jump in to MF to get a full story from experienced users that work with them daily without being getting side tracked or inundated by 35mm brands specifically the D800 in these conversations. I make it a point not to speak of systems I don't own or have used extensively in the field. I miss my Phase gear , I really do. The Nikons are nice and they get the job done , with work I may add. But I still love MF and if I have a bias its that I like shooting the best image maker I can get my hands on and may ad with all the limitations perceived or real that go with it. I'm just about to meet a new client with a huge ad campaign and shit I wish I still had my Phase gear to turn too. Sure ill do a great job, get paid well but ill walk away less artistically satisfied that I did not shoot MF on it. Frankly that's the real bottom line. It's about satisfying my art my reputation and my business. Everything else means shit.

Oops Don posted before me . I was agreeing with BC comments.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Don Libby on March 29, 2013, 02:31:55 pm
What a refreshing idea, speaking from actually long term experience rather than short term testing/googling.....
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 29, 2013, 02:53:09 pm
Seriously this begs the question if weather sealing is important to you why in the hell would you be so stupid to buy into a phase system to begin with. Talk about contradiction


I bought the Phase One system so as to be able to use the back on the Fuji GX680 with leaf shutter lenses and use the 110mm f2 Hasselblad lens with the
focal plane shutter on the DF. When making that choice weather sealing was not an issue for several reasons. First of all the use I intended to make with the
Fuji and the back.... Studio work and "comfortable location".
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 29, 2013, 02:59:32 pm
Really give me the keys Ill drive it up in reverse. Bad analogy, this is gear we as working Pros will do just about anything with it if the gig is paying well to do it. This is about money and no one worth salt will go oh gee I can't do that job because I don't have weather sealing.

Weather sealing would never be better than good common sense. Drop it in the ocean , nothing will save it. LOL

No one has said you can't do a job because you don't have weather sealing.

Common sense always counts. One should be realistically cautious with ones gear.
But common sense is also choosing a weather sealed camera if the camera is going to be used in  conditions where weather sealing would help.
Obviously that choice has to be balanced with other needs.

No one is saying that if you have a weather sealed camera you can tread it like a dirt bike.

Anyway it's really quite sad that one cannot even have a discussion about the advantages of one MFD fully weather sealed camera compared to other
far less weather sealed MFD cameras with out being jumped on by the Phase One advocates that in many cases hear work in one way or another for/with
Phase One.

I wonder if the issues these other Phase One users could have benefited from better weather sealing ...

As you can see from all of these there are plenty of others with similar problems.... random lockups, jammed shutters...

Quote
by joshshinner » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:43 am

Just wondering how many other people were experiencing lock up problems?

Locking up being where you press to release the shutter and the camera just freezes and locks up,
and in order to get going again you have to either switch it off and on again, or remove the battery
and drain power completely. It's annoying in a normal shoot, however if you have the camera locked off
(ie for car photography) and you have to get the battery out, it is a complete nightmare.

Especially seeing as the battery release on the V Grip is terrible and doesn't pop the battery out, so you either have to use a magnet to get it out, or tip the camera!

This happens mainly in mirror up mode, however it does also happen on single and continuous modes.
We've been telling Phase about this for almost 2 years and they still haven't solved it with new firmware.

firmware on camera is 1.25 and we're using an IQ180.

Quote
by AnGy » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:23 pm

Same problem here.
645 DF was used with a P40+ and now with an IQ180 and locks up sometimes one time over 10 actuations sometimes over 3 or 5 actuations.
Update of firmware to version 1.2.5 did not change anything.


Quote
joshshinner » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:47 am

Hey Drew,

So still no firmware or any sight of anything to fix the immensely irritating lock up problems....
It has been over 2 years and it is mind blowing that Phase have not addressed this issue.
And please don't say we haven't said anything about it,
Phase were first made aware of our issues regarding this well over 18 months ago and we have been promised a fix with every new firmware, yet alas no fix.
The cameras have also been back for repair in that time.

Please tell me when this is going to be sorted?

Not impressed. Still.


Quote
John232 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:17 am

My Phase One DF locks up randomly as well. The camera focuses and functions fine, but pressing the shutter button does nothing.
Usually it does this for a just a frame or two about every 25-50 shots.
 I thought the issue might be a specific lens, but it does it with all my lenses ("D" versions, LS versions and 645 manual lenses).
So I am ruling out lenses as the culprit. About 2 weeks ago the camera just refused to shoot and the batteries had to come out of the camera and back.
That has never happened before.

I think the issue might be the automatic switching between LS and FP,
or something to do when the camera and/or back to come out of their power save modes, or it might be the orientation sensor -
the problem seems to happen more frequently when shooting upwards (such as shooting a skyline or tree canopy immediately above me).
 Right now there are too many variables and the problem is too random for me to lay out a specific cause-effect sequence.
The DF has firmware 1.25 and the P65+ has firmware 5.2.2. The most worrisome part is a random centerfold issue with the P65.
I am pretty sure the shot (file) following lock-up has centerfold.

I've reach out to my Phase dealer, hopefully he'll have some helpful feedback. My gut feeling is that there is something amuck with the DF body.


Quote
joshshinner » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:01 am

John232 wrote:
Right now there are too many variables and the problem is too random for me to lay out a specific cause-effect sequence.


I must say John, this is the most to the point and accurate review of the phase one camera, and it's exactly what I say to anyone asking me about it.
And I completely feel your frustration... when something goes wrong, to start with it could be one of a dozen things,
which when working under time pressure is beyond irritating. Hope you get your problem fixed....


Quote
by NNN634255317662300975 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:15 pm

Same here.
The shutter (in my LS lenses?) sticks shut at the rate of about 1 in 10 shots.
Actually I just sent my body in and the shutter was replaced. But I'm still having the same problem.


Quote
by NN891992 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:24 pm

Hi there

is anyone still having a problem with this

both my iq160 and p30+ on 2 different DF bodies and using different computers on capture one 6.4 and 7.01 shoot occasional frames at a recorded f1

usually happens 1 frame in 100 sometimes a few frames in a row

can happen after a pause or during continuos shooting

body and back firmware up to date

any ideas at all , hyper annoying when working with directing talent into a position.

thanks

Sven
NN891992


Quote
645 DF not recognising leaf shutter lenses
by NN153991UL4 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:54 am

Camera body 645df
Leaf shutter lenses 55mm, 110mm and 120 mm and 80 mm
firmware ver 3. on back

I am having trouble with leaf shutter lenses. The camera is not using the shutter speed when leaf shutter lens is on the front of camera. camera OK with normal lenses.
It overexposes to the point where it is white.

I am trying to update firmware to latest version to see if firmware?software has been corrupted.
I have taken batteries out and reset camera to factrory settings.

Cant run FWupdater error message DLL required to run is missing.


Quote
by HEIKO121 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:59 am

Hello Drew,
Since you lovked the discussion about jamming 80 mm lenses
I had to open a new one. Yes I sold my Phase One equipment.
It is not possible to work with it professionaly, as long as you do not take two lenses of the same kind with you.
And regarding to the repair of the 80 mm lens I have tto tell that it dorsn't work after the repair.
This causes me so much hassle and stress again cause i probably have to take it back.
You claim that you can't help any further because I sold it,
but perhaps you can tell me and the rest of the community how such help could look like?
Perhaps I send you the still not working lens so you can prove yourself that I'm not telling ****** here and prove that phase One offers some service at least?
Kind regards
HEIKO HELLWIG


Quote
by NN8850041 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:11 am

I am onto my third 80mm LS Schneider lens.

This weekend the shutter blades jammed closed and my camera was unusable.
This is the third lens of the same model to do this.
Phase One have replaced my lens every time but I am beginning to lose complete faith in the camera system?
I am shooting in the Maldives early March and I can't afford to have my kit breaking down or out of action.

The digital technician operating my camera and I were both at a loss to explain why the kit was breaking down so consistently.

I am interested to hear from Phase One or anyone with similar experiences?
thanks
Antony
http://www.antonynobilo.com


Quote
by NN163027UL » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:31 pm

I had the same issue 2 weeks into the new lens.
The dealer replaced the lens no questions asked but amazingly annoying.
Now that new lens doesn't auto focus to infiniti. Need to bring it in to be fixed. WTF?!


Quote
by NNN634255317662300975 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:07 pm

I have had very similar problems lately.
During my last job, the shutter in the df body destroyed itselt while shooting.
I rented a second body. Then the shutters in both my LS80mm and LS110mm would stick shut like once in 10 shots.
They make a strange noise and then open back up.
This went on during the whole shoot.
Both the body and the lenses were one and a half months out of warranty.
I sent the body in for repair and the shutter in the body was replaced at full charge.
When I asked about the lenses, phase one's answer was I would have had to pay €350 for them to look at them,
with no guarantee that they would find a fix. In which case the shutters would be replaced at full charge.

That's about the worse service I've ever received in my life. And I'm stuck with two time bombs in my bag.

Anyone else have this problem?


Quote
by NN159009UL4 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:15 am

The shutter on my DF body stuck closed after only 2500 cycles. It has been sent in for repair but frankly,
I am hesitant to make any further additions to this system. My scheduled purchase of the 110 LS is on indefinite hold as I have again been forced to regress to my 1Ds III to complete an upcoming job.
If P1 wants to survive upcoming Japanese competition they should take notice, provide excellent customer support and and meet any responsibility arising from their own manufacturing deficiency.


Quote

by HEIKO121 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:57 pm

You claim that the leaf shutter will work over 100000 actuations and do not repair mine after only 4000?
kind of ridiculous isn´t it? And regarding to my new Nikon, there is a much bigger variety of lenses that you can carry with you and they do not cost a fortune.
On top they do not cost fortunes for repairing them.
And they do not sell me "Schneider" lenses made in Japan.


Quote
by klabton » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:40 am

History of my 80 LS lens..
- repair after +/- 4k shoots (warranty)
- locked again and replaced for a new one. (warranty)
- shutter replace ( paid ) about year ago.
- and the last one, lens locked. Today should arrive... (paid)

(twice repaired shutter in body, once digital back)
I have this gear 2,5 years.....

I don't think, this lens has capacity to take 100k shoots.
I don't even use leaf shutter. But still this lens locks after less than 20000 shots...  

I realize that, after all, the best solution for tethered shooting in studio. Much, much better service than Hass...
Shooting in studio with D800 tethered is a little bit annoying...

What can be done, to improve this system???

Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 29, 2013, 03:12:40 pm
Fred, do you ever change lenses on location?  If so, how?  

And please dont tell me you use a zoom lens.  For someone that is so hell bent on IQ and explaining why the Nikon sensor out performs any MF sensor, if I found out you used a zoom instead of primes, I think I would vomit.

Actually my lenses pretty much live on their camera for most of the time.
I avoid changing them on a windy beach. It's a real pain to have to stop shooting due to sensor dust.
With the relatively low price of DSLR's it's not a problem to have more than one... stick one on each lens needed for the shoot.
I think that in 10 years I've cleaned the sensor on my trusty old Canon 1Ds maybe 4 times.

Anyway I keep a bag of swiffers sheets (the ones with no fragrance... the fragrance is a wee bit oily).
Camera gets wiped off before switching lenses or going back in the bag at the end of shooting.
Those swiffer sheets swallow dust like nothing else and are dirt cheap.... they also get "recycled" to clean the floor.  ;)

Here's a swiffer pulled from the side pocket of my camera bag after a couple of camera wipe downs from working at a windy beach
with a stream running over it. The cameras actually did't really look that dusty

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8514/8601660398_634a4869bb_c.jpg)
I highly recommend swiffer sheets... they just eat dust, lint... you name it.
IF you rub the swiffer against itself before wiping down it becomes like a dust magnet.

Here is the camera bag after two days shooting. One at the beach and one at Red Rock.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8522/8600548203_dc97dac9ca_c.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8377/8600549833_27cfeb0dc5_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 29, 2013, 05:10:00 pm
Hi,

It is a misconception that primes are better than zooms. In many cases they are better , but some zooms are better than top grade primes. Some zooms, like the Canon 24-70/2.8 wear out and have problems. If you stop down to f/8 or so good zooms will match good primes as both are pretty much limited by diffraction. Zooms can give yo a better crop, if you cannot move.

I would suggest that you need to look at each individual lens, all have strengths and weaknesses. It is not about primes or zooms more about what works and what doesn't work.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: sgilbert on March 29, 2013, 07:36:16 pm
A close call:  I almost posted a response. 
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 29, 2013, 07:56:43 pm
Hi,

It is a misconception that primes are better than zooms. In many cases they are better , but some zooms are better than top grade primes. Some zooms, like the Canon 24-70/2.8 wear out and have problems. If you stop down to f/8 or so good zooms will match good primes as both are pretty much limited by diffraction. Zooms can give yo a better crop, if you cannot move.

I would suggest that you need to look at each individual lens, all have strengths and weaknesses. It is not about primes or zooms more about what works and what doesn't work.

Best regards
Erik

A high quality zoom is better than a standard quality prime.  But a prime that has the same amount of capital invested in the R&D would (in my opinion) be better than a zoom with the same amount of investment.  This is especially the case if you are worried about barrel or pin cushion distortion.  I have yet to work with a zoom that does not get either at both ends of the zoom.  There are many wide primes that have no distortion (or too little to notice with out have a grid over laying them).  

For shooting people, where depth of field and straight lines are not as much an issue, not really a worry.  For architecture, totally different.  Hell, I used the Canon 35mm L series lens the other day, which is by many fashion guys I know, suppose to be a really good lens.  It has serious barrel distortion. 
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 29, 2013, 09:31:22 pm
A close call:  I almost posted a response.  

Me too . What a scary thought too. Actually I wrote 3 and out of better judgement deleted them but it was the same thoughts. Lol

Pathetic comes to mind
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 29, 2013, 10:35:42 pm
Hi,

Much of the effort going into a high quality prime is intended to improve performance at large apertures.

You are absolutely right about distortion.

Best regards
Erik


A high quality zoom is better than a standard quality prime.  But a prime that has the same amount of capital invested in the R&D would (in my opinion) be better than a zoom with the same amount of investment.  This is especially the case if you are worried about barrel or pin cushion distortion.  I have yet to work with a zoom that does not get either at both ends of the zoom.  There are many wide primes that have no distortion (or too little to notice with out have a grid over laying them).  

For shooting people, where depth of field and straight lines are not as much an issue, not really a worry.  For architecture, totally different.  Hell, I used the Canon 35mm L series lens the other day, which is by many fashion guys I know, suppose to be a really good lens.  It has serious barrel distortion. 
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 29, 2013, 11:41:56 pm
For shooting people, where depth of field and straight lines are not as much an issue, not really a worry.  For architecture, totally different.  Hell, I used the Canon 35mm L series lens the other day, which is by many fashion guys I know, suppose to be a really good lens.  It has serious barrel distortion.  

(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_35_14/35mm_distortion.png)
Quote
The lens shows a slight but still visible degree of barrel distortions (0.5%).



Serious barrel distortion?
It's barely visible on a test grid with guides.

Phase One Schneider 55mm LS documentation says it has just over 1%. Still excellent, but not quite as good as the Canon

(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Schneider-MTF-038-750x1024.jpg)

Lets look at a wider focal length.

Canon 17mm that is also a tilt shift lens.

(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_17_4_5d/17mm_distortion.png)
Quote
Ultra-wide lenses tend to be a bit "laissez-faire" when it comes to distortions but the Canon TS-E 17mm f/4 L plays in a different league here.
It shows only a slight barrel barrel distortion of just over 1.1% albeit based on a somewhat wavy subfrequency. This is highly impressive for a lens in this class.

Schneider 28mm not a tilt shift lens shows more distortion.

(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LS28_E12.jpg)

1.8% to over 2%







Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 30, 2013, 12:15:35 am
A high quality zoom is better than a standard quality prime.  But a prime that has the same amount of capital invested in the R&D would (in my opinion) be better than a zoom with the same amount of investment.  This is especially the case if you are worried about barrel or pin cushion distortion.

Regarding Zooms.

Lets look at the Nikon 70-200mm 2.8 VRII and its distortion.

70mm
(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/nikkorafs7020028iiff/70mm_distortion.png)
Less than 0.5%

135mm
(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/nikkorafs7020028iiff/135mm_distortion.png]/img]1%200mm[img]http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/nikkorafs7020028iiff/200mm_distortion.png)
1.4%

Lets compare that to Phase One fixed focal length lenses.
110mm 2.8LS
About 0.5%... same as the 70-200 @70mm

150mm 3.5LS
About 1.0%

240 4.5LS
About .5 to 1%  only one a bit better than the 70-200mm

Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Paul Ozzello on March 30, 2013, 12:15:59 am
(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_35_14/35mm_distortion.png)


Serious barrel distortion?
It's barely visible on a test grid with guides.

Phase One Schneider 55mm LS documentation says it has just over 1%. Still excellent, but not quite as good as the Canon

(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Schneider-MTF-038-750x1024.jpg)

Lets look at a wider focal length.




Schneider better, you're comparing the Canon 35 on a cropped sensor. Here is the same lens full frame.

(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_35_14_ff/35mm_distortion.png)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 30, 2013, 12:50:23 am


Schneider better, you're comparing the Canon 35 on a cropped sensor. Here is the same lens full frame.

(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_35_14_ff/35mm_distortion.png)


Thanks for pointing that out. However the two lenses are still really close. 1.25% vs 1.5%.

My point is that both are excellent as far as distortion goes.

A software correction of both if needed would correct this with very little impact on sharpness
as a 1-1.5% correction is very minimal.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Paul Ozzello on March 30, 2013, 01:00:55 am
Thanks for pointing that out. However the two lenses are still really close. 1.25% vs 1.5%.


That's a difference of 20% - the same difference between a B- and an A+  ;)
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Paul Ozzello on March 30, 2013, 01:54:21 am

Canon 17mm that is also a tilt shift lens.

(http://www.photozone.de/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_17_4_5d/17mm_distortion.png)
Schneider 28mm not a tilt shift lens shows more distortion.

1.8% to over 2%


I'm more concerned with the significant dip halfway through the frame:

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/Lenses_2009/TSE17/profile/tse17_4l_mtf.gif)

There are plenty of compositions where important features will fall into this lower sharpness ring, that said images can be quite pleasing even with quite strong sharpness falloff, even dramatic falloff can be quite stylish - however I think one would prefer to blur in post rather than be stuck with it.

If I was using that lens for portraiture similar in style to Bill Brandt

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5437641723_33d8dfa169_b.jpg)

I would be concerned about not being able to properly focus that lens on the model's eyelashes.


Paul
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Paul Ozzello on March 30, 2013, 02:26:46 am
Thanks for pointing that out. However the two lenses are still really close. 1.25% vs 1.5%.

My point is that both are excellent as far as distortion goes.

A software correction of both if needed would correct this with very little impact on sharpness
as a 1-1.5% correction is very minimal.

According to the photozone site you reference: (http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/516-canon35f14ff?start=1)  "The lens generates a slight to moderate amount of barrel distortion" which seems to reflect Joe's experience with the lens, not an ideal lens for architecture but passable with software correction.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 30, 2013, 03:04:14 am
Hi,

I think what the MTF curve shows is a wavy field, which means that the focal plane shifts back and forth along the image plane. MTF will improve if you put focus in the weak area.

I have seen some quite impressive images from that lens and it even covers medium format, when used on a Hartblei HCam.

Best regards
Erik

I'm more concerned with the significant dip halfway through the frame:

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/Lenses_2009/TSE17/profile/tse17_4l_mtf.gif)

There are plenty of compositions where important features will fall into this lower sharpness ring, that said images can be quite pleasing even with quite strong sharpness falloff, even dramatic falloff can be quite stylish - however I think one would prefer to blur in post rather than be stuck with it.

If I was using that lens for portraiture similar in style to Bill Brandt

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5437641723_33d8dfa169_b.jpg)

I would be concerned about not being able to properly focus that lens on the model's eyelashes.


Paul
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 30, 2013, 03:37:57 am
Hi,

Some of us (like me) love live view and don't want a camera without. Some of us (like you) do fine without live view.

Best regards
Erik

Hmm, something I do that all the time. I seem to muddle through without live view.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 30, 2013, 04:04:17 am
Hi,

Getting back to the original posting.

I got the impression that the Pentax 645D is a good match for OPs needs. It's in the same price region as the Leica M (by and large). It is said to do long exposures.

I am pretty sure that weather proofing is an advantage, even if most cameras are not weather proofed and still work just fine. Fred BG is right about weather proofing also keeping sand, dust and humidity out of the system.

The OP asked about long exposures and my understanding is that the P45+ back was an excellent performer in that area and the DALSA sensors did not allow very long exposures. The new IQ280 has a new sensor co-developed with Phase One that has excellent long exposure capability.

Best regards
Erik






Hi all.
I have been exploring the option of purchasing a medium format system and I primarily shoot landscape images.

My current endeavours have had me looking at the Pentax 645D system and the 25/55/90mm lenses, as well as some others such as the 35mm and 150mm options as well.

Along the way I have also taken a look at the Phase One system, mainly the 40 and 60mp back options, along with the new IQ260 which looks awesome.

I have been shooting with a Leica M9 for years now and have recently sold it and ordered a new M, while using a Sony Nex6 for the duration as a substitute and quite like it.

The main reason for the post is that I may cancel my new Leica M order and get into a MF system, and continue to use a current and future Nex system for travel and any time I need a lightweight system.

My main concern with the new Leica M is that it can only shoot to a maximum exposure time of 1 minute.  I do a lot of seascapes and would like to get into a little more night work as well as some architecture work, and exposure times longer than 1 minute would be a must I feel.

So, questions to raise are as follows:

How is the long exposure on the Pentax 645D?

How is the future of the 645D looking, are we likely to see a new model soon with higher resolution and live view (mainly for more accurate landscape focusing)?

What is the quality of the Pentax lenses over those offered for the phase one 645DF body?

Anybody out there directly compared the image quality of the IQ backs to the Pentax 645D?

Is the investment of the IQ260 and associated system worth the extra $$$ over the Pentax for somebody who is not yet selling prints?  I shoot for a hobby mainly.


Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks, Scott
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: gerald.d on March 30, 2013, 04:05:26 am
Hi,

Getting back to the original posting.

I got the impression that the Pentax 645D is a good match for OPs needs. It's in the same price region as the Leica M (by and large). It is said to do long exposures.

I am pretty sure that weather proofing is an advantage, even if most cameras are not weather proofed and still work just fine. Fred BG is right about weather proofing also keeping sand, dust and humidity out of the system.

The OP asked about long exposures and my understanding is that the P45+ back was an excellent performer in that area and the DALSA sensors did not allow very long exposures. The new IQ280 has a new sensor co-developed with Phase One that has excellent long exposure capability.

Best regards
Erik

"The new IQ260..."
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 30, 2013, 10:06:33 pm
According to the photozone site you reference: (http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/516-canon35f14ff?start=1)  "The lens generates a slight to moderate amount of barrel distortion" which seems to reflect Joe's experience with the lens, not an ideal lens for architecture but passable with software correction.

Joe's words were quite different

Quote
Serious barrel distortion
.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on March 30, 2013, 10:08:23 pm
Me too . What a scary thought too. Actually I wrote 3 and out of better judgement deleted them but it was the same thoughts. Lol

Pathetic comes to mind

?
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 31, 2013, 09:19:56 am
Joe's words were quite different
.
Serious is still the word I am sticking with here, especially when I am use to dealing with lenses that have very little or none.  Shooting with the 35mm on a full frame where the edge of a wall is placed towards the edge of the image gives very noticeable barrel distortion, especially when you are shooting with the camera level.  In my opinion, it is unacceptable that a "L" series prime has this much barrel distortion.  

Your opinion of the lens is not doubt due to the subject matter that you shoot, and that is perfectly ok.  But for my subject matter, it is not ok.  Handing over files with that much distortion would surely not get me hired again.  
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: FredBGG on April 01, 2013, 03:51:00 am
Serious is still the word I am sticking with here, especially when I am use to dealing with lenses that have very little or none.  Shooting with the 35mm on a full frame where the edge of a wall is placed towards the edge of the image gives very noticeable barrel distortion, especially when you are shooting with the camera level.  In my opinion, it is unacceptable that a "L" series prime has this much barrel distortion.  

Your opinion of the lens is not doubt due to the subject matter that you shoot, and that is perfectly ok.  But for my subject matter, it is not ok.  Handing over files with that much distortion would surely not get me hired again.  

What lenses are you using?
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 01, 2013, 05:07:14 am
Hi,

Stefan Steib, the man behind the Hartblei HCam things the issues are related more battery chargers than batteries. He found a charger that works well.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=59092.msg477285#msg477285

Best regards
Erik



No one has said you can't do a job because you don't have weather sealing.

Common sense always counts. One should be realistically cautious with ones gear.
But common sense is also choosing a weather sealed camera if the camera is going to be used in  conditions where weather sealing would help.
Obviously that choice has to be balanced with other needs.

No one is saying that if you have a weather sealed camera you can tread it like a dirt bike.

Anyway it's really quite sad that one cannot even have a discussion about the advantages of one MFD fully weather sealed camera compared to other
far less weather sealed MFD cameras with out being jumped on by the Phase One advocates that in many cases hear work in one way or another for/with
Phase One.

I wonder if the issues these other Phase One users could have benefited from better weather sealing ...

As you can see from all of these there are plenty of others with similar problems.... random lockups, jammed shutters...

Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Scotty-S on April 02, 2013, 08:26:31 pm
Thanks everybody for your thoughts on this.

I have taken some time to think about it and I am going to go ahead with getting the new Leica M to replace my M9.  I am invested in M glass and I really like the output quality that it can achieve, plus the small size and portability.

However.......

I do still really want to get into a high MP MF system, and that will most likely be the Pentax, but I do not see the 8k investment in a 40MP body as justified when a higher MP count body might just be around the corner from Pentax.

I have taken into consideration the fact of having a backup body, and my M will function fine for just that.  Whatever new Pentax MF body is around the corner I think will fit the bill nicely.  I just can not justify the huge purchase of a IQ260 back, plus body and lenses.  Hell, I could get a used 645D for under 5K down the track as a backup body for whatever the new Pentax 645D II body will be.  I think I would be happy with that.

10K for a body is about where I see the limit for me personally, and I am fine with that.  For a large purchase, I am more than happy to wait.

As always, any thoughts on this are most welcome.

Scott
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: Ken R on April 02, 2013, 09:06:22 pm
Thanks everybody for your thoughts on this.

I have taken some time to think about it and I am going to go ahead with getting the new Leica M to replace my M9.  I am invested in M glass and I really like the output quality that it can achieve, plus the small size and portability.

However.......

I do still really want to get into a high MP MF system, and that will most likely be the Pentax, but I do not see the 8k investment in a 40MP body as justified when a higher MP count body might just be around the corner from Pentax.

I have taken into consideration the fact of having a backup body, and my M will function fine for just that.  Whatever new Pentax MF body is around the corner I think will fit the bill nicely.  I just can not justify the huge purchase of a IQ260 back, plus body and lenses.  Hell, I could get a used 645D for under 5K down the track as a backup body for whatever the new Pentax 645D II body will be.  I think I would be happy with that.

10K for a body is about where I see the limit for me personally, and I am fine with that.  For a large purchase, I am more than happy to wait.

As always, any thoughts on this are most welcome.

Scott

I just ordered a 645D and 5 lenses for about $11k. Thats hard to beat for MF Digital.

story HERE (http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/220407-just-ordered-645d.html)

I actually was prepared to spend about $25-30k. I even emailed (twice) one of the leading MFDigital dealers in the US...10 days ago, did not even get a reply. Then people wonder why the economy is bad. Go figure.
Title: Re: Help please with MF Choices
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 03, 2013, 01:14:02 am
Please, share your experience!

Best regards
Erik

I just ordered a 645D and 5 lenses for about $11k. Thats hard to beat for MF Digital.

story HERE (http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/220407-just-ordered-645d.html)

I actually was prepared to spend about $25-30k. I even emailed (twice) one of the leading MFDigital dealers in the US...10 days ago, did not even get a reply. Then people wonder why the economy is bad. Go figure.