Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ibear88 on March 18, 2013, 09:51:15 PM

Title: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: ibear88 on March 18, 2013, 09:51:15 PM
In making the move from 4x5 to digital, I rented a Canon dslr with a Schneider tilt shift lens. It was not my cup of tea. So, now I'm back to exploring medium format.

I can see the allure of the Canon, Nikon and Sony products. They include a lot of digital sensor and its attendant technology for the money. You can buy a whole dslr camera, including the full frame sensor, for the cost of used digital back that is several years old of only incrementally more pixels.

Does anybody see Canon, Nikon, Sony or another digital back maker or assembler marketing a medium format digital back at a significantly lower price than the current line up of new Phase One or Leaf backs?

Intuitively, it seems like Sony and others already have comparatively efficient sensor and lcd technology and could uncouple it from the camera itself without a huge investment in new engineering. I'm wondering why they have not done it. Is the medium format market too small? Is the sensor uncoupled from the camera more complex when compared to engineering the two together? Is, for example, a P21+ back really better than a full frame sensor house in a dslr?

Just curious about why it has not happened and really hoping that a quality lower priced digital back will come to market soon.

Thanks, Jeff
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: RFPhotography on March 18, 2013, 10:29:48 PM

Does anybody see Canon, Nikon, Sony or another digital back maker or assembler marketing a medium format digital back at a significantly lower price than the current line up of new Phase One or Leaf backs?

Not likely.

Quote
Is the medium format market too small?

Yes.

If you want MF that's more 'reasonably' priced than some of the others, the Pentax 645D is out there.  Reputed to be a terrific camera.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 19, 2013, 12:12:11 AM
My theory on this is that Pentax is going to take the CMOS sensor that is in the Sony NEX 5r/Nikon D7000/Pentax k-5 and stitch it together a few times and make a 1.1x crop sensor. This is a Sony sensor. I think (if this was even possible) would be the extent of sony's involvement in medium format.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 19, 2013, 04:11:17 AM
The market is too small for the big players to care.

I'm quite sure lower prices and higher volumes would be possible with a different business strategy and some strong investors to back it up. But I don't think Phase One etc is capable or interested, they rather sell few at high price units than many at lower. And photographers seems to accept it and think the prices are well-motivated for the quality you get, at least for now.

Today the second hand market is quite attractive though I think. If you look at what you really *need* rather than what the best available is you can get it at a quite reasonable price. To reach 4x5" quality most agree that the 33 - 39 megapixel 48x36mm backs is enough. In that range Aptus 75 is one of the best price/performance and appears quite often on the second hand market. Combine that with a digital view camera like the Arca-Swiss MF-two or Linhof Techno and you have a nice digital drop in replacement for the 4x5" camera.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 19, 2013, 04:15:54 AM
Sony would not make an MF back for many reasons.

The main reason is that it does not make MF cameras and never has.
IF they made an MF back that is cheaper than the Phase One or Hasselblad backs that worked on those cameras
they would be shooting themselves in the foot. The reason why is that neither Hasselblad or Phase/Mamiya are sustainable without the
huge margins on their backs. They would not be able to stay in business making lenses and bodies with Sony taking away the digital back market.

The other reason why Sony would not be interested is that they know very well what the D800 sensor is capable and what the d7100
scaled up to FF would be able to do.

They know fully well that the MF market is only for those companies that are stuck in that format and don't have the resources to compete in the 35mm DSLR market.

IF there were a feasible market for an back only manufacturer I think Fuji would jump onto it as they have already made MF digital backs.
They to know the MF market well being the manufacturer for much of the Hasselblad. Fuji chose to go in the direction of high end smaller cameras.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Paul2660 on March 19, 2013, 09:15:57 AM
Over three years ago, on Canon rumors, there was a big deal about Canon and their patents for a Medium format sized chip.  This brought up a bunch of pondering, on that site and others  that Canon was going to come out with a new lineup.  I used to have the link to the paper that talked about the fab process etc.  Canon is unique in that they still make most of it not all of their chips, unlike Nikon.  Sony also makes most of their chips.  This was a CMOS chip in MF size.

At the time of the posting it was though that this chip would be used by Pentax, in the very much delayed Digital 645, which eventually came out with CCD. 

If any company was going to do it, and had the production line I would think it would Canon, however as Fred already posted, the market is much smaller and returns would be much less. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 19, 2013, 09:55:13 AM
They know fully well that the MF market is only for those companies that are stuck in that format and don't have the resources to compete in the 35mm DSLR market.

LOL.

This is like saying the only reason a successful Bespoke Suit Maker continues to make suits by hand is because he is stuck without the resources to produce 10,000 suits a year on large industrial machines. That's true, but it misses the point. He does it because it makes the best fitting suit; not everyone can afford to buy it and that is ok with him.

Or that the only reason a high-end wedding photographer who charges $10k per wedding only shoots 12 weddings a year is because he is stuck without the (time) resources to shoot more weddings. That's true, but it misses the point. He does it because he can offer 100% of his time/energy to each wedding and give them the best possible experience. Not everyone can afford to him, and that is ok with him.

I guess in a technical sense it is not false. Phase One would have a hard time competing in the Canikon dSLR market. But it misses the point. Some companies purposely position themselves to provide solutions only to a small % of the market. Not everyone wants to go the route of competing in a commodity market where considerable debate is had over whether the R+D department can use a $5 part in a new product when a $4 part would be 80% as good.

"stuck" -  ;D

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/is_mf_dead.shtml
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 19, 2013, 10:13:15 AM
Canon does make (very) large sensors that have been deployed in telescopes and such, but there's been no indications that they have any interest in traditional MF photography.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 19, 2013, 10:51:03 AM
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/is_mf_dead.shtml

Very interesting interview. It does seem like the independent pro market has become weaker due to the increased capability of DSLRs, but the advanced amateur market is growing so times are good. I hope that does not lead to a Hasselblad-like answer, i e make "luxury products", but perhaps rather try to make more affordable products so the advanced amateur market can grow further.

Also interesting to hear that "CMOS is coming eventually"... actually not heard that from Phase One before.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 19, 2013, 10:54:41 AM
They know fully well that the MF market is only for those companies that are stuck in that format and don't have the resources to compete in the 35mm DSLR market.


At least, it shows that small companies that do not have the NASA R&D budget can make tools for a niche market with craft in mind, and it's nice. Look at Hartblei for ex.

It happened and happens in the car industry and why not in digital photography?

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: michael on March 19, 2013, 10:59:46 AM
Not in the interview, but something that Phase One executives have made clear to me over the years (and again as recently as last week) is that they have no interest in building and selling "carriage trade" products, such as a Limited Edition Masserati Red camera body covered in reticulated ostrich testacal leather. None. Zero. Nada.

Michael
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 19, 2013, 11:28:06 AM
Not in the interview, but something that Phase One executives have made clear to me over the years (and again as recently as last week) is that they have no interest in building and selling "carriage trade" products, such as a Limited Edition Masserati Red camera body covered in reticulated ostrich testacal leather. None. Zero. Nada.

That's great to hear! :)

The part that the advanced amateur market has become more important is really interesting news. What does the advanced amateur shoot? My guess would be that there's a lot of landscape photographers in that group, and a lot of tech camera users. I would also think that the growth potential is huge if you not only wait for new Chinese millionaires to appear but also actually make a tech cam friendly entry level product that is resolution-wise competitive with the latest DSLR offers. Tech camera landscape photography is really the best representation of "slow photography" as was emphasized in the interview.

I wonder if Phase One has any interest in *that*, i e try to expand their market by trying to get lower priced products. In-between the lines I got the sense that the answer is unfortunately "no", they're open to answer to most customer feedback except that on pricing :-\.

I'm not expecting prices as low as DSLRs, but say if you could get a 48x36mm 50 megapixel back for $8000 (same price as a new Aptus-II 5) that would be a huge difference from today's offers and make a landscape tech camera much more accessible to amateurs. Getting a complete system (back, tech body, a few lenses) for $20K rather than $50K makes a large difference in terms of how many amateurs that can afford it.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Steve Hendrix on March 19, 2013, 11:39:01 AM


I'm not expecting prices as low as DSLRs, but say if you could get a 48x36mm 50 megapixel back for $8000 (same price as a new Aptus-II 5) that would be a huge difference from today's offers and make a landscape tech camera much more accessible to amateurs. Getting a complete system (back, tech body, a few lenses) for $20K rather than $50K makes a large difference in terms of how many amateurs that can afford it.


I think they feel that there is already opportunity for that part of the market to explore pre-owned or refurbished solutions at that price point and similar capability. For example:

https://captureintegration.com/pre-owned-cambo-phase-one-bundles/ (https://captureintegration.com/pre-owned-cambo-phase-one-bundles/)

And Phase One does indeed take part in this - while some of these bundles can be pre-owned product, other bundles (like the P65+ units) are factory refurbished product via a Phase One program. As a result, this does provide some lower priced solutions for this end of the market without the need for Phase One to try to produce new product that poses the difficulty in producing acceptable revenues from this price point.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 19, 2013, 12:02:22 PM
I think they feel that there is already opportunity for that part of the market to explore pre-owned or refurbished solutions at that price point and similar capability.

If so, they think the market is small. To get a pre-owned unit someone must have owned it first :). The deals you show look pretty good, but also very rare. I cannot get that type of deals around here.

I don't think that it would be too difficult to get an "acceptable margin" on such a product, the thing is that you would sell more volume.

You need some marketing aimed towards advanced landscape photography amateurs, there's very little currently to make people more aware of that these systems exist and what they are good at. You could for example show Joe Cornish working in "slow photography" fashion with his tech camera (instead of his Mamiya camera which is in the marketing material now, I think it is like 10 times easier to impress amateurs with a tech cam than with a MF SLR), see how it relates to traditional large format photography like Ansel Adams etc. Lots of opportunities to make amateurs interested.

When you look at Phase One's web site and hear the interview you get the impression that Phase One doesn't really know/care much about tech cameras at all, more than that they know they exist.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Steve Hendrix on March 19, 2013, 12:24:37 PM
If so, they think the market is small. To get a pre-owned unit someone must have owned it first :). The deals you show look pretty good, but also very rare. I cannot get that type of deals around here.

I don't think that it would be too difficult to get an "acceptable margin" on such a product, the thing is that you would sell more volume.

You need some marketing aimed towards advanced landscape photography amateurs, there's very little currently to make people more aware of that these systems exist and what they are good at. You could for example show Joe Cornish working in "slow photography" fashion with his tech camera (instead of his Mamiya camera which is in the marketing material now, I think it is like 10 times easier to impress amateurs with a tech cam than with a MF SLR), see how it relates to traditional large format photography like Ansel Adams etc. Lots of opportunities to make amateurs interested.

When you look at Phase One's web site and hear the interview you get the impression that Phase One doesn't really know/care much about tech cameras at all, more than that they know they exist.


That's really the key (the bold type). I think if they saw a benefit to being in that part of the market, meaning producing a profitable product at that price point with similar specs - they would probably already be doing it. I think also that "markets" for their product, their core product, are not so much professional, amateur, etc, as much as they are who can afford the product. Anyone interested in shooting medium format who can afford a Phase One solution is their market. And the evidence indicates that this market is quite ample. Resultingly, this also casts a light on whether it indeed would benefit them to produce a low cost solution.

If it would not negatively impact their core market - people interested in photography who can afford $20K to $40K photographic products - then if they could produce adequate profit from a low priced solution, they would do it. However, the amount of volume at the pricing you have in mind would have to be much higher, and I do not feel confident that the level of volume required would necessarily emerge. This level of volume also has significant costs above and beyond just product profits, there's expanded infrastructure in terms of marketing, sales management, and especially technical support for many, many more users. These are not insignificant considerations.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 19, 2013, 12:44:26 PM
This level of volume also has significant costs above and beyond just product profits, there's expanded infrastructure in terms of marketing, sales management, and especially technical support for many, many more users. These are not insignificant considerations.

Yes, I think that is where the core problem is. The company is too small and has too little financial backing and perhaps too little business knowledge to be able to pull it off, too high risk. It's not about technology, they would to some extent need a different business strategy. The trade-in dealer-centric business model is probably very solidly infused in the whole company structure, and this is made for low volume with huge margins and they are stuck in that. Probably happily so though. I would have loved to talk about this with the Phase One CEO though.

High prices is an advantage too, in the interview he said several times that MF is about being different from everyone else, and if too many can afford it then it is not exclusive any longer. Unfortunately (for Phase One) I don't think that MF contribute that much to "being different" concerning photographic results, it's all about what the photographer can do creatively. But for amateurs (and some pros) "being different" can simply mean having different gear than the others, preferably something that the others can't afford :).
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 19, 2013, 12:54:04 PM
Hi,

Keeping the system expensive can of course give a possible competitor an option to enter the market at a significantly lower price point. That may be what Pentax is doing, at least if they really introduce a significantly new model in the coming time.

Those Cambo/Phase offerings Steve Hendricks mentioned could be quite attractive, IMHO, but it is not exactly what I'm looking for and I'm not really ready to  go for MF anyway.

Best regards
Erik


Yes, I think that is where the core problem is. The company is too small and has too little financial backing and perhaps too little business knowledge to be able to pull it off. It's not about technology, they would to some extent need a different business strategy. The trade-in dealer-centric business model is probably very solidly infused in the whole company structure, and this is made for low volume with huge margins and they are stuck in that. Probably happily so though.

High prices is an advantage too, in the interview he said several times that MF is about being different from everyone else, and if too many can afford it then it is not exclusive any longer.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 19, 2013, 01:04:26 PM
LOL.

.......Some companies purposely position themselves to provide solutions only to a small % of the market. .......
"stuck" -  ;D

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/is_mf_dead.shtml

Yes Stuck. Just look at reality.
Hasselblad and it's investors made a desperate attempt to get into smaller formats and it was a colossal failure.

Phase One purposely chose to not try to enter such a market. Smarter choice. But the reality is that they are "stuck" in the MFD market.
Phase One has made the smart choice to enter somewhat into other formats through it's software.
They also snapped up Leaf and Mamiya because that is the world they are in.

Another important aspect is brand recognition in the market outside of MF. Both Hasselblad and Phase One
really do not have the type of brand recognition that could carry them into other formats.

The way the gear is marketed is also a determining factor. Canon's and Nikon's etc sell on the highstreet
and sell based on reputations and the shinny logos hanging around millions of people necks.
MFD is sold in a very different manner. Specialized dealers that market the living daylights out of the stuff
and mainly to immediate buyer candidates. This is what is needed to sell this stuff. However this type of
business model is not conducive to growing a brand and expanding into other fields.

Then there is the R+D difference. Giants like Nikon and Canon due to their huge resources put much more development
into products and the manufacturing process. They already work on technology that is maybe two three product generations
away. For this reason they know what the possibilities are and as a result see no reason for entering the MF arena.
Not only do these companies make their own sensors ... they make the type of utra high end equipment that makes sensors.

MFD is in a sense a dead end road. There are two ways it can go. Turn into a dead end back ally or be a posh and high quality Cul de Sac.

Phase is in the high quality Cul de Sac, Hasselblad almost blew it buy building a small Wallmart in it's Cul De Sac and thought that hiring
a fancy shop window decorator could save them.

Just look at the direction of technology.
Phase One comea out with a new back. IQ2 series. Through some endogenous tinkering they have improved long exposure.
Canon on the other hand demonstrated ultra high sensitivity sensor technology, yes still prototype, but technologically
a huge leap.

Then there is the synergy that both Nikon and Canon can get from their growing motion picture products.
Canon will benefit enormously as far as optical design goes with it's ultra high end motion picture lens designs where
lenses sell for $ 30,000 and have waiting lists. We are already seeing Canon lenses being used in front of MF sensors due to their
high quality.

In the past a Nikon or a Canon might have wanted to get into MF for prestige reasons, but that is not the case any more because their is no
longer the quality gap that there used to be between the formats. Also I think the Lunar project has pretty much killed the glory of MF as a noble
group of MF manufactures. I think it is safe to say that it has also pretty much killed off venture capital interest in MFD.


Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 19, 2013, 01:40:33 PM
I know that it would only be a matter of time before the hawks would get into this discussion.  I just made the leap and can't wait for the camera to get here. 

What made me jump was the access to different camera systems like Arca Swiss.  The ability to work with sysmetrical lenses that are much sharper than the DSLR wide angle retrofocal counter parts.  Also, the ability to do multiple exposures in a single digital capture; now I never have to worry about not having enough strobe power.  None of these are available for Nikon/Canon. 
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: EricWHiss on March 19, 2013, 01:45:50 PM
FredGGG,
Did you hear in the interview where the CEO of Phase says that 2012 was their best year ever in terms of sales and profit?  You can go back and edit all those posts of yours now.   ::)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 19, 2013, 02:11:45 PM
Hey,

I didn't know that cul de sac was used in english lenguage.

Do you realise that the litteral translation in french is bag's ass ? (but means the same: a dead-end road)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: amsp on March 19, 2013, 02:22:39 PM
FredGGG,
Did you hear in the interview where the CEO of Phase says that 2012 was their best year ever in terms of sales and profit?  You can go back and edit all those posts of yours now.   ::)


Come now Eric, fighting Fred with facts and logic? That's like trying to make water stick to teflon  ::)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Steve Hendrix on March 19, 2013, 02:50:05 PM
FredGGG,
Did you hear in the interview where the CEO of Phase says that 2012 was their best year ever in terms of sales and profit?  You can go back and edit all those posts of yours now.   ::)



Wait for it -

"Oh, but I can't imagine why Phase One wouldn't make all their sales figures public so as to reassure their customers that the end was not near".


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 19, 2013, 07:13:37 PM
LOL. Fred, you are a hoot. Don't give up your day job.

Yes Stuck. Just look at reality.
Hasselblad and it's investors made a desperate attempt to get into smaller formats and it was a colossal failure.

Phase One purposely chose to not try to enter such a market. Smarter choice. But the reality is that they are "stuck" in the MFD market.
Phase One has made the smart choice to enter somewhat into other formats through it's software.
They also snapped up Leaf and Mamiya because that is the world they are in.

Another important aspect is brand recognition in the market outside of MF. Both Hasselblad and Phase One
really do not have the type of brand recognition that could carry them into other formats.

The way the gear is marketed is also a determining factor. Canon's and Nikon's etc sell on the highstreet
and sell based on reputations and the shinny logos hanging around millions of people necks.
MFD is sold in a very different manner. Specialized dealers that market the living daylights out of the stuff
and mainly to immediate buyer candidates. This is what is needed to sell this stuff. However this type of
business model is not conducive to growing a brand and expanding into other fields.

Then there is the R+D difference. Giants like Nikon and Canon due to their huge resources put much more development
into products and the manufacturing process. They already work on technology that is maybe two three product generations
away. For this reason they know what the possibilities are and as a result see no reason for entering the MF arena.
Not only do these companies make their own sensors ... they make the type of utra high end equipment that makes sensors.

MFD is in a sense a dead end road. There are two ways it can go. Turn into a dead end back ally or be a posh and high quality Cul de Sac.

Phase is in the high quality Cul de Sac, Hasselblad almost blew it buy building a small Wallmart in it's Cul De Sac and thought that hiring
a fancy shop window decorator could save them.

Just look at the direction of technology.
Phase One comea out with a new back. IQ2 series. Through some endogenous tinkering they have improved long exposure.
Canon on the other hand demonstrated ultra high sensitivity sensor technology, yes still prototype, but technologically
a huge leap.

Then there is the synergy that both Nikon and Canon can get from their growing motion picture products.
Canon will benefit enormously as far as optical design goes with it's ultra high end motion picture lens designs where
lenses sell for $ 30,000 and have waiting lists. We are already seeing Canon lenses being used in front of MF sensors due to their
high quality.

In the past a Nikon or a Canon might have wanted to get into MF for prestige reasons, but that is not the case any more because their is no
longer the quality gap that there used to be between the formats. Also I think the Lunar project has pretty much killed the glory of MF as a noble
group of MF manufactures. I think it is safe to say that it has also pretty much killed off venture capital interest in MFD.



Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 19, 2013, 08:51:16 PM
LOL. Fred, you are a hoot. Don't give up your day job.


Glad to be of entertainment....
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: eronald on March 19, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
Hasselblad will get a Sony sensor as a reward for doing the Loonycam.

Edmund
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 19, 2013, 10:27:40 PM
Hasselblad will get a Sony sensor as a reward for doing the Loonycam.

Edmund

Lunar... AKA Loonycam.... I think that put an end to any real collaboration between Hasselblad and Sony.
The Lunar.. fruit of Hasselblad's  "New Business Development Manager" whose previous experience was
product manager of De Longhi kitchen appliances. It's not very reassuring when the manager of new buisness development
of a high tech digital camera manufacturer comes from a small kitchen appliance company.
 
Also Fuji already makes much of the Hasselblad and is a sensor designer and manufacturer ... might be a more probable source for a sensor.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 19, 2013, 10:46:02 PM
LOL.

This is like saying the only reason a successful Bespoke Suit Maker continues to make suits by hand is because he is stuck without the resources to produce 10,000 suits a year on large industrial machines. That's true, but it misses the point. He does it because it makes the best fitting suit; not everyone can afford to buy it and that is ok with him.

Or that the only reason a high-end wedding photographer who charges $10k per wedding only shoots 12 weddings a year is because he is stuck without the (time) resources to shoot more weddings. That's true, but it misses the point. He does it because he can offer 100% of his time/energy to each wedding and give them the best possible experience. Not everyone can afford to him, and that is ok with him.

I guess in a technical sense it is not false. Phase One would have a hard time competing in the Canikon dSLR market. But it misses the point. Some companies purposely position themselves to provide solutions only to a small % of the market. Not everyone wants to go the route of competing in a commodity market where considerable debate is had over whether the R+D department can use a $5 part in a new product when a $4 part would be 80% as good.

"stuck" -  ;D

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/is_mf_dead.shtml

many companies serve specialized markets. It's interesting that a photography and electronics giant like Sony does choose to serve several very high end and
niche markets like digital cinema. Very expensive items with high margins.

For example the $ 65,000 4K cine alta

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/09/sony-camera.jpg)

Very high end pro equipment, not made in the 100s of thousands.

Yet they choose to stay away from MFD.

Dough's analogyies with a suit maker or a wedding photographer have nothing to do with this. Neither the photographer or the suit maker
are in the high end electronics business where huge R+D is astronomical.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JV on March 19, 2013, 10:51:17 PM
I think that put an end to any real collaboration between Hasselblad and Sony.

Not what the rumors say but who knows...:

Rumor has it that Hasselblad could be the first to announce a new medium format SLT digital slr type camera,  with a new Sony medium format Sensor.
The fixed  mirror of the SLT design would help increase image sharpness by eliminating mirror bounce from a much larger medium format mirror.
Rumor has a new camera possibly being announced in the 2nd quarter of 2013. A Sony version is rumored to come later.

http://ccvicfstop.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/sony-hasselblad-rumoured-to-be-working-on-a-new-medium-format-slt-digital-slr-camera/
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 05:31:43 AM
Not what the rumors say but who knows...:

Rumor has it that Hasselblad could be the first to announce a new medium format SLT digital slr type camera,  with a new Sony medium format Sensor.
The fixed  mirror of the SLT design would help increase image sharpness by eliminating mirror bounce from a much larger medium format mirror.
Rumor has a new camera possibly being announced in the 2nd quarter of 2013. A Sony version is rumored to come later.

http://ccvicfstop.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/sony-hasselblad-rumoured-to-be-working-on-a-new-medium-format-slt-digital-slr-camera/

Rather interesting that the "rumor" refered to big investments made by Sony in CMOS production.
That did happen. About $1 Billion, but for the manufacture of stacked CMOS sensors for smart phones.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 06:03:59 AM
Uhh... it would be nice if we for once could discuss MFD with some mild criticism, dreams hopes and guesses rather than take on the "MF must/will die" approach :)

The worst case for MFD I think is that it will stay as is, i e a 10,000 unit a year marginally small product which due to its extremely high prices may become even more marginalized to special applications like repro/industrial/cartography and being a luxury accessory for photography-interested millionaires.

If the "best year ever" simply is because the millionaire amateur market has more than compensated the loss in the independent pro market I think it is an unfortunate development.

What I think will happen in the coming 3 year period is that Canon will enter the high mp game and with a new sensor process get closer to what Sony/Nikon can do in terms of low ISO image quality. They will also upgrade their 45 and 90mm TS-E lenses. Then we'll have a reasonably flexible DSLR "tech camera" that can deliver essentially equivalent quality as a MF tech camera equipped with a P45+. We'll see more 135 lenses designed for high resolution sensors. Previous MFD users will start using high res 135 and with the growing user base the workflows will be further developed so we'll see an improvement in skin tone handling and other factors where MF is traditionally superior.

The problem is that 135 system will be able to reach so far in image quality that the willingness to pay a huge amount of extra money to get a bit better may go down drastically in many pro segments. If the response to this is to do nothing concerning pricing I think MFD could become a very narrow specialized niche product.

I do feel that we see a shift in marketing focus, it's now more about "being different" than having superior quality, and the reason for this I think is that many feel today that 135 systems are good enough for almost any type of use.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 07:04:33 AM
Rather interesting that the "rumor" refered to big investments made by Sony in CMOS production.
That did happen. About $1 Billion, but for the manufacture of stacked CMOS sensors for smart phones.

CMOS will happen for MF. I don't think the CEO from Phase One would dare to lie about that, and he indicated very clearly in the interview that it is coming. I would guess that Sony will not be the maker of it though, and that the first incarnations won't really reach Sony's quality per pixel. In a few years time we'll probably have CMOS and live view wireless to a tablet. It will be cool. It will also make it possible for a great revival of the view camera, as every ground-glass-challenged person can used it then, woohoo! Unless it's a color cast disaster...
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 20, 2013, 07:22:28 AM
Uhh... it would be nice if we for once could discuss MFD with some mild criticism, dreams hopes and guesses rather than take on the "MF must/will die" approach :)

The worst case for MFD I think is that it will stay as is, i e a 10,000 unit a year marginally small product which due to its extremely high prices may become even more marginalized to special applications like repro/industrial/cartography and being a luxury accessory for photography-interested millionaires.

If the "best year ever" simply is because the millionaire amateur market has more than compensated the loss in the independent pro market I think it is an unfortunate development.

What I think will happen in the coming 3 year period is that Canon will enter the high mp game and with a new sensor process get closer to what Sony/Nikon can do in terms of low ISO image quality. They will also upgrade their 45 and 90mm TS-E lenses. Then we'll have a reasonably flexible DSLR "tech camera" that can deliver essentially equivalent quality as a MF tech camera equipped with a P45+. We'll see more 135 lenses designed for high resolution sensors. Previous MFD users will start using high res 135 and with the growing user base the workflows will be further developed so we'll see an improvement in skin tone handling and other factors where MF is traditionally superior.

The problem is that 135 system will be able to reach so far in image quality that the willingness to pay a huge amount of extra money to get a bit better may go down drastically in many pro segments. If the response to this is to do nothing concerning pricing I think MFD could become a very narrow specialized niche product.

I do feel that we see a shift in marketing focus, it's now more about "being different" than having superior quality, and the reason for this I think is that many feel today that 135 systems are good enough for almost any type of use.

I find it interesting that we keep on missing one of the great things about MF, different systems.  Lets face it, from a camera stand point Canon and Nikon are the same thing.  Yes there is the sensor and lens argument, but they have the same look, feel, function, they even work the same.  

For MF we have Alpa, Arca, Cambo, Hassy, Mamiya, Linhof, Sinar, ...

They are all different, work differently.  For me the Canon TS lenses are horrible, dealing with shift and turn, such a pain in the ass.  But having two independent x and y movements flows so much better.  And you can do multiple exposures with MF, not to mention access to the sharpest lenses in the world with no sacrifice to quality (like designing around a mirror box).

But maybe you are right.  I am young, but I am also strange for most photographers my age.  No photographers my age that I have ran into know how to balance color on location with gels, they do not know what window gels are, many use no lights and know nothing about the different properties of different types of light (for instance the discontinuous light spectrum of fluorescents which makes it impossible to render color correctly).  I hear that many colleges do not require their students to take a course on the 4x5 camera any more or work with a color light meter.  Friends of mine who went to school for photography (I went to school for mathematics) did not know what a center filter was when I brought it up or the difference between a leaf and focal plain shutter

So maybe MF will die, but not because of budgets, because of laziness.  
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 20, 2013, 07:29:45 AM
On a side note, I always find it amusing when someone used the phrase "good enough."  Like Canon or Nikon are good enough.  I often wonder how these same photographers would feel if a Art Buyer looked at there work and said "well, he is good enough for this assignment."  I know I would not be very proud after hearing that. 
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: yaya on March 20, 2013, 07:48:20 AM
If the "best year ever" simply is because the millionaire amateur market has more than compensated the loss in the independent pro market I think it is an unfortunate development.

2012 also saw many pros that already had an older MF back from 3-4-5 yrs ago and that have decided to re-invest in their business and to buy a new one (either by trading the old one in or as a new purchase).

At the same time we saw many pros who took the DSLR route 3-4-5 yrs ago after many years of shooting MF/ LF film and who for a host of reasons have decided to go back to MF/LF cameras with a new digital back

The "millionaire amateurs" are a welcome addition obviously but they cannot take the place of the core business of commercial studios & shooters.

Other areas such as cultural heritage, aerial and other industrial applications are all on the up and are fast becoming much more than small niches.

No offence to anyone here but 5-10 regular LL posters do not represent the current market, buy any stretch...

As Henrik suggested in the interview, the money that comes in is routed back into R&D and drives innovation and new projects and helps them materialise faster. This does not mean that the product must become a commodity or available at a cost of smaller/ cheaper products.

Yair
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 07:57:53 AM
On a side note, I always find it amusing when someone used the phrase "good enough."  Like Canon or Nikon are good enough.  I often wonder how these same photographers would feel if a Art Buyer looked at there work and said "well, he is good enough for this assignment."  I know I would not be very proud after hearing that. 

It's in the sense that people used 4x5" instead of 8x10" because it was "good enough" for the print sizes and uses that was targeted, i e no-one would care about the difference so it was wiser to use the smaller, cheaper and more practical format. As I see it, 135 format is now approaching what 4x5" film could do in terms of resolution and image quality and thus starts to embrace many of the uses that 4x5" was sufficient for.

I e, it will be tougher and tougher for MF to sell on image quality advantage alone. People will start to ask themselves, if I make my 32" fine art print at 400 ppi instead of 200 ppi does it really matter, and am I prepared to pay 10 times the price for that?
Title: Will Sony Make a Digital Back? Extremely unlikely
Post by: BJL on March 20, 2013, 08:48:26 AM
Not what the rumors say but who knows...:
...
http://ccvicfstop.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/sony-hasselblad-rumoured-to-be-working-on-a-new-medium-format-slt-digital-slr-camera/
That link is no evidence of a rumor: it is just someone speculating (really just "wishing") on a blog, using some absurdly irrational (sorry, "optimistic") arguments. In addition to the many reasons already stated, lens sales are still an important part of the profitability of a cameras system, and there are already more than enough lens and body systems competing in the very small high end market for digital formats larger than 36x24mm, so I do not expect Sony (or Canon, or Nikon) to enter that market.

Since luxury car analogies keep coming up, expecting the Japanese camera industry giants to get into formats larger than 36x24 is like expecting Japanese car industry giants to start making cars to compete with high end niche makers like Bugatti or Lamborghini ... or arguing that companies like Toyota or Honda need to do so for fear of losing sales to those high end niche brands.


P. S. Not to say that one or two of those high end niche brands cannot thrive in that niche: I am no Fred. I rather expect a niche sensor designer like CMOSIS or Dalsa to provide them with good CMOS sensors someday, in the way that CMOSIS has already done so for the new Leica M.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 20, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
It's in the sense that people used 4x5" instead of 8x10" because it was "good enough" for the print sizes and uses that was targeted, i e no-one would care about the difference so it was wiser to use the smaller, cheaper and more practical format. As I see it, 135 format is now approaching what 4x5" film could do in terms of resolution and image quality and thus starts to embrace many of the uses that 4x5" was sufficient for.

I e, it will be tougher and tougher for MF to sell on image quality advantage alone. People will start to ask themselves, if I make my 32" fine art print at 400 ppi instead of 200 ppi does it really matter, and am I prepared to pay 10 times the price for that?

I'd argue the premise that 35mm DSLR's are close to 4X5". It's more than just PPI, so much more more. If it was just PPI then the Nokia 808 = the D800e for printing. It's one incredible phone but it ain't a FF DSLR. You can scan 35mm film to match the resolution of a 4X5 scan but it won't match it, or even close. Rendition, tonality, colour, feel, these are all as important for photographers (as opposed to pixel peepers) as the pure lines per mm. Then again I don't believe that our Aptus II-8  comes close to a 4X5 frame even cheaply scanned, for tonality and rendition. :D

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 20, 2013, 09:17:49 AM
many companies serve specialized markets. It's interesting that a photography and electronics giant like Sony does choose to serve several very high end and
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/09/sony-camera.jpg)


A F65 (or other Fs) isn't necesarly the queen in the niche market you mentionned. In fact it is not at all. The Aaton and similar beasts rule the very high-end motion production, not the still photography crowd shooting a bunch of rather low budget commercials. Sony might be a component provider for them. If my memory's correct, Aaton sensor is provided by Dalsa. It's french tech, DNG raw and proxies in DNxHD, they work very well in Hollywood, small company, same as Angénieux, small company located in the middle of a red-neck area in France. They do good stuff and they sell ww. Or Cooke lenses. The list is long.

I'm thinking of Grass Valley for example, wich is in fact a small company compared to Sony or Panasonic, they inundated the ww market with their 100.000 euros Elite cameras. There are more Grass Valley thomson bodies here in Teevees than all the sony and Panasonic together, because that's what want the high-end users for serious live coverage. The cost of those systems are out of range for a still imagery based production. Grass Valley makes profit, and they aren't Sony giant, but they make the profits within a very limited but very demanding niche market, same as Aaton. Sony is into this market but isn't ruling it, in fact they are more active and interested in the middle and low-end productions (not talking about low-end in terms of artistical value here but in terms of budget) because for a company like Sony they focus where the max profits are but in the very high-end the marketplace is much more fragmentated a a truth space exists for small companies.

The Cuantel Pablo's facilities are closing and how streange (how strange really) that a year ago, you had to put 15.000 bucks on the table to get a Smoke license, and suddenly, as by magic, the 2013 version, more powerfull, is sold at less than 4.000. What were those 11.000 then? Those 11.000 were because they could, now they can't anymore.

If a small company gives the tools the pros want, pros will continue to buy them. Grass Valley survives and makes profit selling cameras much more expensive than Sony, because there is a market that want thoses cameras, and in general (no, in general no, in absolute) those are highly trained and skilled operators who work where the real money is but not where the real profits are for a big company.  I'm sure there will always be a market different than the standardized mass productions as soon as they know how to spot their user needs, and within this market, price is not an issue.

Analogicaly, one can say, and would be right, that there are some japanese cars technologically more advanced, powerfull, cheaper and faster than Ferraris, so why buying Ferrari then? The thing is that Ferrari buyers want to drive a Ferrari, not a plastic electronic asiatic car that sounds like a vacuum cleaner, and they are ready to pay what Ferrari is asking them for having this experience. It's as simple.










  

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 09:41:13 AM
I'd argue the premise that 35mm DSLR's are close to 4X5". It's more than just PPI, so much more more. If it was just PPI then the Nokia 808 = the D800e for printing. It's one incredible phone but it ain't a FF DSLR. You can scan 35mm film to match the resolution of a 4X5 scan but it won't match it, or even close. Rendition, tonality, colour, feel, these are all as important for photographers (as opposed to pixel peepers) as the pure lines per mm. Then again I don't believe that our Aptus II-8  comes close to a 4X5 frame even cheaply scanned, for tonality and rendition. :D

The Nokia phone is just many pixels, colour accuracy, resolution, noise is all significantly worse so I don't think it's a good comparison. I'm aware of the more subtle unmeasurable aspects though, some see them and some don't. I don't know how many that do though. Probably when CMOS becomes available there will be some hardcore users claiming that CCD is the best, as some still think that Kodak fat pixel CCDs that measure worse on every aspect actually has better subjective image quality than a modern Dalsa sensor.

To me I find when bokeh is not a factor (as in my landscape photography) the look of the lens or sensor is not very relevant (although I do appreciate the spherical aberration-rich cloudy bokeh from the traditional "large format" lens designs), I can with skilled post-processing control the look as I want. Movements and available high quality focal lengths is a factor though, and there the DSLRs are too weak currently from my perspective. If those gaps are closed then it will surely be tougher for me to motivate having two systems, depending on how much it will cost to maintain the MF system. When bokeh is a factor like in portraiture the "look" becomes a stronger component, still it's quite difficult to see.

It's easier to motivate subtle advantages when the price difference is not as extreme as it is today. But with the goal of selling only 10,000 units I guess it should be no problem to find enough users where price is not an issue... so it will work out either way for the MF companies. If it will be a relevant tool for a wider audience an I'd like remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back? Extremely unlikely
Post by: gerald.d on March 20, 2013, 09:49:35 AM
That link is no evidence of a rumor: it is just someone speculating (really just "wishing") on a blog, using some absurdly irrational (sorry, "optimistic") arguments. In addition to the many reasons already stated, lens sales are still an important part of the profitability of a cameras system, and there are already more than enough lens and body systems competing in the very small high end market for digital formats larger than 36x24mm, so I do not expect Sony (or Canon, or Nikon) to enter that market.

Since luxury car analogies keep coming up, expecting the Japanese camera industry giants to get into formats larger than 36x24 is like expecting Japanese car industry giants to start making cars to compete with high end niche makers like Bugatti or Lamborghini ... or arguing that companies like Toyota or Honda need to do so for fear of losing sales to those high end niche brands.

Lexus LFA ;)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 10:02:58 AM
2012 also saw many pros that already had an older MF back from 3-4-5 yrs ago and that have decided to re-invest in their business and to buy a new one (either by trading the old one in or as a new purchase).

At the same time we saw many pros who took the DSLR route 3-4-5 yrs ago after many years of shooting MF/ LF film and who for a host of reasons have decided to go back to MF/LF cameras with a new digital back

The "millionaire amateurs" are a welcome addition obviously but they cannot take the place of the core business of commercial studios & shooters.

Other areas such as cultural heritage, aerial and other industrial applications are all on the up and are fast becoming much more than small niches.

No offence to anyone here but 5-10 regular LL posters do not represent the current market, buy any stretch...

As Henrik suggested in the interview, the money that comes in is routed back into R&D and drives innovation and new projects and helps them materialise faster. This does not mean that the product must become a commodity or available at a cost of smaller/ cheaper products.

Yair

I think you know what I'm at. I'm not saying that MF has no future or want it to disappear or something. I'm just interested in the possibility for MF digital to reach a wider audience among photographers that today would use DSLRs, an aggressive approach to become more relevant in traditional photography rather than to flee away and instead dig deeper into repro/aerial/industrial. Phase One could probably live quite well on *only* industrial applications plus Capture One software. I mean a company like Sinar makes digital backs, it does not take a large company or huge sales to be able to make these products. So it is just silly to say that MF will disappear.

As far as I can see though Phase One is totally uninterested in growing or addressing the pricing issue, but rather change customer base and find new markets that fits the high-price dealer-centric organization. To put it in other words, the industrial camera is an impressive product and certainly has its place (and should be in the portfolio for sure), but I would find it even more impressive if a new product strategy was made to challenge high-end DSLRs in a wider market. I'd like to see a vision that says "we want more photographers in more diverse fields to use our products" rather than a passive "we search for markets where pricing is a non-issue".

Maybe I'm a bit nostalgic, in the film days cameras were cheap enough so you could choose format as you'd like, if you choose 35mm or 8x10" was not a pricing issue but based on what you'd like to do. It would be nice if we could see something similar in the digital world.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 10:39:34 AM
Luxury car comparisons keep coming up, but I don't really think that people that choose MF over DSLR does it for the same reason that someone chooses Ferrari over Toyota.

For me it was rather a choice of classic vintage car (digital view camera) instead of a Lexus (pro DSLR), as my landscape photographer's personality fits the slow all-manual workflow better. But I don't consider the camera to be a luxury item that's expensive just to make it exclusive and my peers jealous, it's just a tool that through the way it is made and sold happens to be expensive. I'd be most happy if more photographers could join in the club.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 20, 2013, 10:57:45 AM
many companies serve specialized markets. It's interesting that a photography and electronics giant like Sony does choose to serve several very high end and
niche markets like digital cinema. Very expensive items with high margins.

For example the $ 65,000 4K cine alta

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/09/sony-camera.jpg)

Very high end pro equipment, not made in the 100s of thousands.

Yet they choose to stay away from MFD.

Dough's analogyies with a suit maker or a wedding photographer have nothing to do with this. Neither the photographer or the suit maker
are in the high end electronics business where huge R+D is astronomical.

So, you are saying that companies that make cine cameras don't enter the MFD market because MFD is dead? Could it be they don't enter that market because they have another market right now. I wonder why John Deere does not make sedans? Probably the sedan market is dead.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 20, 2013, 10:59:54 AM
As far as I can see though Phase One is totally uninterested in growing or addressing the pricing issue...

What is the issue? Apparently, Phase is doing fine with their pricing model. Their market seems to be large enough as well.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
What is the issue? Apparently, Phase is doing fine with their pricing model. Their market seems to be large enough as well.

None really. It's just an interest in a feature. Just as you could be interested in live view or CMOS, which they are doing just fine without and will do just fine without (the industrial segment won't need it for sure), you could have an interest in lower prices. I'm just representing myself as a user (and I do think there are more like me), and that's not more megapixels higher ISO or even live view that's would be most exciting, it's rather things like lower color cast, return of the 48x36mm format, an attractively priced tech cam digital back, an organization that works in places where dealers are not available etc. As a current user of MF I'm interested in discussing the path forward.

I was hoping for a more hungry company that meets the DSLR competition head-on rather than seeking for other markets.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 20, 2013, 11:36:34 AM
Some links of companies that are making really right stuff, sell/rent very well and do not have the R&D budgets of the giants, not everything is (and has to be) CineAlta. Some of those are regular award winners in their marketplace.

Aaton: http://www.aaton.com/

Angénieux: http://www.angenieux.com/

Cooke: http://www.cookeoptics.com/

Panavision: http://www.panavision.com/home

Hartblei: http://www.hartblei.de/en/index.htm

Grass Valley: http://www.grassvalley.com/

The Foundry: http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/

Vinten: http://www.vinten.com/

Red etc etc...the list is long.

Nota: it's really interesting to point that the brand that really changed the game recently is a rather small company call Red. They have top team and I doubt very much their R&D budget is remotly comparable to Sony.


In that sense, I don't see why MF manufacturers could not make it like other small companies have been able to succeed and stayed alive. RED is the perfect example of it.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 11:49:29 AM
Some links of companies that are making really right stuff, sell/rent very well and do not have the R&D budgets of the giants, not everything is (and has to be) CineAlta

Aaton: http://www.aaton.com/

Angénieux: http://www.angenieux.com/

Cooke: http://www.cookeoptics.com/

Panavision: http://www.panavision.com/home

Hartblei: http://www.hartblei.de/en/index.htm

Grass Valley: http://www.grassvalley.com/

The Foundry: http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/

Vinten: http://www.vinten.com/

etc etc...the list is long.

One could add every tech cam company to the list, Linhof, Cambo, Alpa, Arca-Swiss.

It's more difficult to make electronics without being big, but since you can collaborate with "generic" chip manufacturers it is indeed possible. Probably lagging behind a bit as you cannot have own R&D to lead the tech development, but as tech becomes more widespread you can do it. At some point someone will be able to make a CMOS chip with good image quality in MF size. MFDB makers have been fortunate that CCD tech has been as good as it is.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 20, 2013, 11:55:13 AM
One could add every tech cam company to the list, Linhof, Cambo, Alpa, Arca-Swiss.

It's more difficult to make electronics without being big,

Look at Red. Small company. Their cameras rule the motion world now. I think the secret of Red resides in the people they contract.

I think that all that need MF manufacturers is looking at Red example: have vision and contract the very best people (like me). And inovate from it.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 12:07:54 PM
Look at Red.

Yes do look at Red! :)

They have a very different business model from Phase One. Prices and webshop with put-in-cart on their web, and they actually have attractive pricing as a part of their success. More of that please :-). They had very strong(?) funding by the founder Jim Jannard so they were able to take risks. I hope they manage to stay strong and profitable with the new competition coming from Canon and others.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 20, 2013, 12:24:31 PM
Apparently, Cooter pointed several times some irritating downsides in the sale dep, but Red is inddeed amazing. A small company that brought more res, cheapper and built on to military standarts and they just changed the rule from bottom to the end. See how many big prods are now shooted on Red. They cover from low-end to indy to Biggest budgets.

The Aaton I mentionned before is IMHO an as good if not (probably in fact) better camera but it's targetting a niche market, while RED has been super clever from the beginning in every aspects, marketing included. But their gear work and rocks and all that at ridiculous costs in what motion budgets are concerned.

If MF follow a similar path, they could reach great success in the future. But again, the RED example is probably due to who they contracted. If you got the best ones, you can go very far.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: gerald.d on March 20, 2013, 12:26:38 PM
Whatever happened to Red's promise of 645 and 617 sensors?
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: alan_b on March 20, 2013, 12:42:52 PM
I know that it would only be a matter of time before the hawks would get into this discussion.  I just made the leap and can't wait for the camera to get here. 

What made me jump was the access to different camera systems like Arca Swiss.  The ability to work with sysmetrical lenses that are much sharper than the DSLR wide angle retrofocal counter parts.  Also, the ability to do multiple exposures in a single digital capture; now I never have to worry about not having enough strobe power.  None of these are available for Nikon/Canon. 

For the record, you can do multiple pops with Nikon at least - don't know about Canon.  (Multiple exposures -> Auto Gain: OFF) You don't even have to touch the camera between exposures to re-cock the lens.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 01:10:22 PM
For the record, you can do multiple pops with Nikon at least - don't know about Canon.  (Multiple exposures -> Auto Gain: OFF) You don't even have to touch the camera between exposures to re-cock the lens.

With 1DX and 5D3 Canon introduced a few multipe exposures modes:

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/1dx_multiple_exposures_article.shtml
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 20, 2013, 02:15:56 PM
Pricing of sensors rarely go public these days. The volume pricing for manufacturers of the KAF-50100 (which is in for example Hasselblad CFV-50) that was announced in 2008 was $3500, the CFV-50 back costs today $17,000 and is actually cheaper than for example P45+ which is at $20,000.

This suggests to me that there indeed is room to make a more cost efficient product that could sell in much larger volumes in for example the growing amateur tech camera market. I think the "right" price for a back similar to CFV-50 would be $8K, to be matched with Cambo, Arca-Swiss, Alpa, Linhof systems costing $12K - $15K (or much cheaper systems from for example Silvestri, $6K you can get something decent). You would then get a new complete system for $14K - $20K that already on paper wins the psychologically important megapixel battle with the DSLR, and has this all-different shooting experience which suits the among amateurs super-popular genre landscape photography.

There is already today a back that new costs $8K, the 22 megapixel Leaf Aptus-II 5, which is a great back but 22 megapixel is not sexy enough these days to make it a success for this application, and few even knows that it exists and combines well with tech cameras -- marketing is lacking. What you see marketed is the flagship products, marketed towards pro users, and very rarely you see marketing targeted specifically for tech camera usage. It's more like "here's our great 645 body which is great for everything from fashion to landscape, and by the way you can smack it on a view camera or something too"

As it seems it would require new thinking though and therefore a different company than the established players.

1) make a product based on a standard sensor such as KAF-50100 or Dalsa FTF-6080C (user-changable mount of course, perhaps with builtin shimming)
2) collaborate closely with tech camera makers, and make it show
3) make marketing material focusing primarily on usage with tech cameras for landscape photography, and typical pro usage (architecture, product) secondary, also show how it can be used with vintage cameras (RZ, Hasselblad V etc)
4) make it easy and accessible for the customer to buy things, employ direct sales via the web, make attractive tech camera bundles
5) have popular photo magazines/sites review the system, make lots of noise having a new "affordable" MF system that serious amateurs can afford. Meet DSLR comparison head-on with no-bullshit strategy. Focus on the shooting experience just as much or more than image quality.
6) watch you pass 10,000 sold units within the first year and cause tech cam makers to have long waiting lists on their gear ;-)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: ibear88 on March 20, 2013, 02:24:57 PM
Hi, as the original poster I'd like to say there have been some great comments. Thanks.

My questions were not really intended to enter the fray into whether dslr is better than medium format or vice versa as I think those are very personal choices.

I'd like to recap some of what I've heard here:

Cons for a cheaper backs: the market is too specialized to achieve production and customer service scales necessary to support cheaper backs, pro and high end amateurs want the service that goes with purchasing from a skilled support network, r&d costs are too high so far, older used backs serve the lower end market, dslr cameras already bring high quality sensors to consumers in an economical way, and some consumers want a higher cost digital back to differentiate their craft from the crowd. Last, if you shoot a lot of film the digital back price model looks good and if you don't shoot a lot of film then film remains available.

Pros for cheaper backs: the technology already exists within the dslr cameras and the r&d has already been done, the distribution network already exists among the large camera makers, the large camera makers could license the existing technology to a niche digital back reseller, thousands of existing lenses and medium and large format film cameras could be revitalized with digital backs and not all of those owners are looking for super high resolution but would like the convenience of a digital back, and existing margins are very high and barriers to entry for Sony type makers are low. Last, the digital back price as a model based on film replacement will break down as film diminishes and backs become more plentiful.

I could see digital backs as an interchangeable item like lenses. One could have a black and white back, a back with a larger micron sensor for great bokeh, and perhaps a back maximizing skin tone. The dslr camera could be reconfigured as well to allow users to own multiple backs and to sensors without upgrading cameras.

To me, there is a good case for someone to market a digital back in the space between nothing and Phase. The Sony types already have all the technology and all that is missing is some tooling of a back, which at the Sony scale is probably the easiest part of the equation.

Thanks again for all the comments. Jeff
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 20, 2013, 03:20:54 PM
Torger, I get the feeling that those who need a MFDB already know why a D800e is not enough and therefore know that they cannot get what they need at a cheaper price. If a D800e will not suffice then there is no more point wondering about its price, it's no longer relevant. P1 know this and that is why they are marketing to those who NEED more and know that they have no other option but paying it. If they try to compete in the market place owned by Canon and Nikon they will be buried, there are not enough who realise the advantages vs the very obvious disadvantages to make it a viable market to compete in, they would get buried in a year. For a small company like that to exist and invest in itself it needs either sales figures or high prices. High sales figures they cannot do because the only way to do it is lowering prices where they get creamed by the big Japanese boys. High prices and margins targeted at a specific niche on unique and very high end products is then the only route left.

Not that I know anything about marketing but the above seems to make sense to me.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 20, 2013, 03:59:16 PM
Hi,

There are other players, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Hasselblad and Leaf. Mamiya and Leaf of course belong to Phase but the others compete and may compete on other priorities.

Best regards
Erik


Torger, I get the feeling that those who need a MFDB already know why a D800e is not enough and therefore know that they cannot get what they need at a cheaper price. If a D800e will not suffice then there is no more point wondering about its price, it's no longer relevant. P1 know this and that is why they are marketing to those who NEED more and know that they have no other option but paying it. If they try to compete in the market place owned by Canon and Nikon they will be buried, there are not enough who realise the advantages vs the very obvious disadvantages to make it a viable market to compete in, they would get buried in a year. For a small company like that to exist and invest in itself it needs either sales figures or high prices. High sales figures they cannot do because the only way to do it is lowering prices where they get creamed by the big Japanese boys. High prices and margins targeted at a specific niche on unique and very high end products is then the only route left.

Not that I know anything about marketing but the above seems to make sense to me.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 20, 2013, 05:37:42 PM
As it seems it would require new thinking though and therefore a different company than the established players.

1) make a product based on a standard sensor such as KAF-50100 or Dalsa FTF-6080C (user-changable mount of course, perhaps with builtin shimming)
This is already done. All MFD backs/cameras use a standard sensor.
Quote
2) collaborate closely with tech camera makers, and make it show
Why? The camera company can use any back--that is the point of the tech camera. Working with the back company will not change anything. If you want automation, why would the tech camera companies take on the risk of investing in that? You need to prove the sales are there.
Quote
3) make marketing material focusing primarily on usage with tech cameras for landscape photography, and typical pro usage (architecture, product) secondary, also show how it can be used with vintage cameras (RZ, Hasselblad V etc)
This is already done. Alpa certainly pitches their cameras for landscape. So does Pentax. The reason the companies pitch to pro use is because pros buy their products and amateurs are looking for pro gear--it works. The amateur that is buying old cameras are not the group that has the money to spend on these systems.
Quote
4) make it easy and accessible for the customer to buy things, employ direct sales via the web, make attractive tech camera bundles
You need to see if a consumer direct model works--I though I one point I could buy directly from Alpa? What happen to that? Since the cameras are available and dealers can make package deals, bundles are already done.
Quote
5) have popular photo magazines/sites review the system, make lots of noise having a new "affordable" MF system that serious amateurs can afford. Meet DSLR comparison head-on with no-bullshit strategy. Focus on the shooting experience just as much or more than image quality.
Wrong market. You think a Pop-photo reader is going to care? Pop-photo never did view cameras in the past, just how to do puppy pictures. You are never going to get a MFD system meet the price of a DSLR system and so the amateur is still going to go to 90% of MFD quality at 10% cost. It is just the wrong market. You cannot sell on shooting experience as that is too fuzzy--you can't understand the experience unless you have had it.
Quote
6) watch you pass 10,000 sold units within the first year and cause tech cam makers to have long waiting lists on their gear ;-)

There has always been high-end gear. They why the market works has been very similar. The price become irrelevant because no matter how you slice it, these are expensive camera with an almost-as-good DSLR option much cheaper from the larger manufacturers. Knocking a bit off the price or bring it too low does not necessarily increase sales where you actually make money--the more you lower prices, the more units you need to sell, and the lower the margins.

Why not sell your landscape photographs for $10 rather than $2,000? You will make a killing because everyone can buy them and you will get tons of orders. If you do get tons of orders, you will be working like a dog for little money, but if the orders don't pan out, you go bankrupt really fast. OK, you say. I will sell them for $1,800 instead of $2,000. Now, instead of selling 50 prints a year, you sell 52 prints--you have just lost money. But you say, if I advertise at the local McDonalds, lots of people who eat cheap food will jump at the offer--or maybe not...

Believe it or not, but the camera industry has been working on how to optimize sales for a long time. The system you see is a direct result of successful systems. The pricing models are not random.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 07:26:59 PM
So, you are saying that companies that make cine cameras don't enter the MFD market because MFD is dead? Could it be they don't enter that market because they have another market right now. I wonder why John Deere does not make sedans? Probably the sedan market is dead.

No I am saying that some companies choose to go into niche markets, even creating new ones because they see growth and it's an addition to what they do.

Sony chose to go into very high end digital cine cameras 4K etc. However even though they are one of the largest photography companies and absorbed Minolta
they chose not to go into the MFD market because they do not see growth. The have the capability and Minolta had actually made some MF cameras in the past.
They don't see big potential because they are already working on the next generations of full frame sensors and know that the gap is getting smaller and smaller and that
the need for anything better than theor future gear is getting smaller and smaller.
Phase on the other hand only makes MFD cameras. They are committed, entrenched and "stuck" with it.
The "NEED" for MF is becoming more of a "WANT" rather than need as the quality of top of the line gear in both formats is getting beyond what is needed in the real world
for the vast majority.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: EricWHiss on March 20, 2013, 07:41:25 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I am guessing most people that own MF cameras and/or digital backs also own some other cameras too. The premiss that it's either a DLSR or an MFDB never made sense to me.  I would be surprised to read about a person working for a living that has only one camera.  What would happen if they had a problem with one on the job?   And for the category of buyer that does because he/she can afford it... I doubt those folks stop with just one also....  ;)

But a MFDB + DLSR does make sense.  The DSLR is there for backup and for jobs requiring AF tracking or High ISO.    Of course there are those of us (myself included) that still shoot film but that's another story.

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JV on March 20, 2013, 08:04:37 PM
...they are already working on the next generations of full frame sensors and know that the gap is getting smaller and smaller...

I also own a Fuji X-Pro1. Great camera, excellent image quality.  very enjoyable shooting experience.
Not the best camera if you want to shoot wildlife (no long lenses) or if you want to shoot sports but outside of that it will do most things and it will do them well.
The Fuji X forums are filled with people who dumped their D700 or D800 and who prefer their X-Pro1 or X100s to a D800.
Some shoot weddings with it:
http://www.briankraft.com/Blog/fuji-x100s-wedding-photography-colorado/

Just a thought, the full frame DSLR might actually be gone long before MF is gone...
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 08:24:32 PM
I also own a Fuji X-Pro1. Great camera, excellent image quality.  very enjoyable shooting experience.
Not the best camera if you want to shoot wildlife (no long lenses) or if you want to shoot sports but outside of that it will do most things and it will do them well.
The Fuji X forums are filled with people who dumped their D700 or D800 and who prefer their X-Pro1 or X100s to a D800.
Some shoot weddings with it:
http://www.briankraft.com/Blog/fuji-x100s-wedding-photography-colorado/

Just a thought, the full frame DSLR might actually be gone long before MF is gone...

Big difference.
The 35mm DSLR is already "morphing/mutating" into other camera types while maintaining the features of DSLR.
The D800 shoots video, stills, in camera HDR. Shoots varois sensor areas for HD video and stills. Shoots 24x36 aspect ratio and 5x4.
Shootsa SLR or Live view.

The big companies that make DSLR cameras also make mirrorless and smaller formats. The two leading MF companies make only MF and one failed terribly attempting to gert into compact mirrorless.

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JoeKitchen on March 20, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
Big difference.
The 35mm DSLR is already "morphing/mutating" into other formats while maintaining the featured of DSLR.
The D800 shoots video, stills, in camera HDR. Shoots varois sensor areas for video and stills. Shoots 24x36 aspect ratio and 5x4.
Shootsa SLR or Live view.

The big companies that make DSLR cameras also make mirrorless and smaller formats. The two leading MF companies make only MF and one failed terribly attempting to gert into compact mirrorless.


Are you sure you don't work for Nikon?
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 08:41:07 PM
Luxury car comparisons keep coming up, but I don't really think that people that choose MF over DSLR does it for the same reason that someone chooses Ferrari over Toyota.

For me it was rather a choice of classic vintage car (digital view camera) instead of a Lexus (pro DSLR), as my landscape photographer's personality fits the slow all-manual workflow better. But I don't consider the camera to be a luxury item that's expensive just to make it exclusive and my peers jealous, it's just a tool that through the way it is made and sold happens to be expensive. I'd be most happy if more photographers could join in the club.

The luxury in a car is all about the owner being pampered by the comfort and luxury. MF are not luxurious in that sense. It's not a luxury carrying them around, it's not a luxury how slow they are. The person seeking luxury will most likely seek Leica and if they are also keen about fashion they'll want it in a Hermes dress.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 20, 2013, 08:43:44 PM
No I am saying that some companies choose to go into niche markets, even creating new ones because they see growth and it's an addition to what they do.

Sony chose to go into very high end digital cine cameras 4K etc. However even though they are one of the largest photography companies and absorbed Minolta
they chose not to go into the MFD market because they do not see growth. The have the capability and Minolta had actually made some MF cameras in the past.
They don't see big potential because they are already working on the next generations of full frame sensors and know that the gap is getting smaller and smaller and that
the need for anything better than theor future gear is getting smaller and smaller.
Phase on the other hand only makes MFD cameras. They are committed, entrenched and "stuck" with it.
The "NEED" for MF is becoming more of a "WANT" rather than need as the quality of top of the line gear in both formats is getting beyond what is needed in the real world
for the vast majority.


Fred, do you know when both Minolta and Konica made their last medium-format camera? You do know they do not have the human capital to do it today because the engineers that made those camera, and lets put the fact to the side that they were film cameras, have long since retired and most are not likely even living. This is an important factor.

Minolta or Konica Minolta would have never entered the MFD because they do not have infrastructure to make them. Nor would the risk involved to develop those would work with a company that size. Sony will not go that way either, basically for the same reason. This does not mean there is not growth in the MFD market. It just means it is not a market for Minolta/Sony.

You are forgetting one important thing in your argument, MFD like Phase are making money. It is a profitable business. They are not "stuck." They are working in their field. There is no reason for them to enter markets that do not interest them.

I understand you personally dislike, for some bizarre reason, the MFD market. But making stuff up will not change that.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JV on March 20, 2013, 08:49:00 PM
The two leading MF companies make only MF and one failed terribly attempting to gert into compact mirrorless.

In your head it is already a failure but that does not necessarily make it one...
Whether it will be one from a commercial point of view still remains to be seen.  
The camera only gets released next month... shortly followed by 3 new Zeiss lenses which could give the entire NEX/Lunar platform a new boost...
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 20, 2013, 09:03:04 PM
Fred, do you know when both Minolta and Konica made their last medium-format camera? You do know they do not have the human capital to do it today because the engineers that made those camera, and lets put the fact to the side that they were film cameras, have long since retired and most are not likely even living. This is an important factor.

Minolta or Konica Minolta would have never entered the MFD because they do not have infrastructure to make them. Nor would the risk involved to develop those would work with a company that size. Sony will not go that way either, basically for the same reason. This does not mean there is not growth in the MFD market. It just means it is not a market for Minolta/Sony.

You are forgetting one important thing in your argument, MFD like Phase are making money. It is a profitable business. They are not "stuck." They are working in their field. There is no reason for them to enter markets that do not interest them.

I understand you personally dislike, for some bizarre reason, the MFD market. But making stuff up will not change that.
Minolta made a TLR in the 70's, -it doesn't really count. At that point everyone was making everything. I think I have a canon watch somewhere, that doesn't mean the watch industry died in the 90's.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 20, 2013, 09:08:34 PM
...
Are you sure you don't work for Nikon?
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 09:50:11 PM
Are you sure you don't work for Nikon?

No I don't work for Nikon. Actually the D800 is my first Nikon in about 20 years. Worked with all sorts of camera.

Yashica/Contax
Hasselblad
Mamiya
Pantax
Canon
Phase One
Nikon
Fuji
Toyo 8x10
Sinar

For a full disclosure I have been sponsored by Polaroid : free 8x10 polaroid for fashion photography in exchange for being featured in their advertising and
photo credit being Polaroid by {my name}.
I have also had collaborations with Elinchrom and Manfrotto.

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 09:54:34 PM
In your head it is already a failure but that does not necessarily make it one...
Whether it will be one from a commercial point of view still remains to be seen.  
The camera only gets released next month... shortly followed by 3 new Zeiss lenses which could give the entire NEX/Lunar platform a new boost...

 :o

Are they seriously going ahead with it despite the overwhelming negative response from just about all directions...
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 20, 2013, 11:33:10 PM
On a side note, I always find it amusing when someone used the phrase "good enough."  Like Canon or Nikon are good enough.  I often wonder how these same photographers would feel if a Art Buyer looked at there work and said "well, he is good enough for this assignment."  I know I would not be very proud after hearing that.  

The truth of the matter is that for the work out there that is not going to be printed very large and on a high resolution printer top of the line DSLRs are far more than good enough.
Shooting above the required quality level is a good idea. Today you can do it both with MF and 35mm DSLR. There is good enough, there is a bit better than you need and then there is overkill.

When the pure image quality of both high end 35mm DSLR and MF are more than good enough other things become more important.
Reliability, agility, speed (ready to use when needed), lens range and cost.... not to mention weather sealing etc etc.

Regarding your art director comment... well I doubt many art buyers could distinguish MFD from say a D800 of Canon 5D III unless your portfolio was printed 30x40 inches.
On the other hand the art buyer will be able to see what they are really looking for.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: EricWHiss on March 21, 2013, 12:13:32 AM
Wow! Fredjeang!  That's awesome! Skills!

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: eronald on March 21, 2013, 12:37:11 AM
Look at Blackmagic.
They are targeting RED's market at 10% the price, 1% the hype, and doing very well.


Edmund

Yes do look at Red! :)

They have a very different business model from Phase One. Prices and webshop with put-in-cart on their web, and they actually have attractive pricing as a part of their success. More of that please :-). They had very strong(?) funding by the founder Jim Jannard so they were able to take risks. I hope they manage to stay strong and profitable with the new competition coming from Canon and others.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: HarperPhotos on March 21, 2013, 01:05:00 AM
Hello,

I was on a recee today for a TVC I am shooting the stills for next week and the camera man had this video camera I have never seen before. He told me it was a Blackmagic and he had just got it. It was so small and compact and he mentioned than it created a more film like quality than other cameras. As I have no experience with the motion side of the industry I wouldn't know but I am looking forward to Tuesday to see how the thing goes.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Petrus on March 21, 2013, 01:40:23 AM
I also own a Fuji X-Pro1. Great camera, excellent image quality.  very enjoyable shooting experience.
Not the best camera if you want to shoot wildlife (no long lenses) or if you want to shoot sports but outside of that it will do most things and it will do them well.
The Fuji X forums are filled with people who dumped their D700 or D800 and who prefer their X-Pro1 or X100s to a D800.

Just a thought, the full frame DSLR might actually be gone long before MF is gone...


I also have X-Pro1 (and X-E1 as a spare body) AND D4 and D800E Nikons. Those systems are so different that I can not understand how somebody would ditch DSLRs and keep Fujis for everything. Or the person is only doing "Fuji X-Pro1 type" photography and does not really need the modern DSLR functionality (fast (tracking) focus, 10 frames per sec etc). I like those Fuji cameras a lot and have done long assignments with them both for practical reasons (they weigh 80% less) and for reasons of blending in and having the right "feel" for the situation. If I could keep only one kit, it would be Nikon, as almost everything can be done with them well, with Fuji only some things can be done well. It is not about the image quality, either. I would be mostly the same with mid format cameras. It is not as much about the picture quality, but different mindset, taking less and hopefully better planned frames, slow photography. I have not shot digital MF, but it was sometimes refreshing to use 6x7 for something usually done with 135. Extra quality was one thing (difference is not as big anymore), but mostly it was the limitations which forced me to be more creative.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 21, 2013, 03:35:05 AM
This is already done.

A lot to respond to here, I'll keep it brief. I don't believe that MF business model is the perfect balance and that pricing must be the way it is. I believe that the trade-in dealer-centric business model was created some 10-15 years ago before the 'net was big, and now when the model is dated it's very difficult to change. It's easier to find new business (industrial) where the model works than to respond to the changed environment in traditional photography. It think it will unfortunately require a new company like Red to revolutionize the business.

It's not about going from $2000 to $10 as you stated in the example, that's absurd. It's about providing attractive entry-level products at a reasonable price, i e $8000 50 megapixel 48x36mm digital back, rather than having two ultra high-end backs and boring entry-level backs that has been surpassed by DSLRs. It's about getting visible in the market-place. Sure "pop-photo" sites/magazines will write about MF, it's about having skilled marketing, knowing how to become visible. The customers are 40-something middle-age crisis men that buys this type of camera system instead of a motor cycle :). I think there is an interest which you could capitalize on if you dare to take the risk.

Another aspect, when MF was new and the business model was set the pro photographers worked with film, medium format, 4x5" etc. This is no more. The new generation of photographers often haven't even used a film camera, but have used various digital compacts and DSLRs. The photography market is different, the customers are different. I don't think the current business model and product range is the best way to address these changed conditions.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 03:55:56 AM
Fred, do you know when both Minolta and Konica made their last medium-format camera? You do know they do not have the human capital to do it today because the engineers that made those camera, and lets put the fact to the side that they were film cameras, have long since retired and most are not likely even living. This is an important factor.

Yes I know very well when Minolta and Konica made medium format cameras. I have a couple.

What on earth are you talking about?
Do you seriously think that the industrial giant Sony can't put together something to compete with the Mamiya DF?
"They don't have the human Capital". These are the men and women that put phase detection focus points right in the sensor.
Sony recently made a 1 billion dollar investment to increase their sensor production from 50,000 to 60,000.
They have all the resources needed to develop a camera of any format if they chose to do so.

They also happen to make theatrical 4k projection systems with lenses that project form their 3 inch imaging device.
Those are optics with an image circle of 80mm. They can produce large format lenses without any problem, not
to mention their ongoing relationship with the optical giant Zeiss.

I guess you never heard of the Contax 645? Yashica/Kyochera had never made a MF camera.
Their first model wa the Contax 645 and it remains on of the best MF bodies ever made even today.
It is utter bullshit that some kind of superior engineers are needed to design MF compared to smaller formats.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 21, 2013, 04:03:19 AM
Look at Blackmagic.
They are targeting RED's market at 10% the price, 1% the hype, and doing very well.

Yes that will be interesting to follow. A little bit too early to say how they will succeed. It's also a bit early to say how Red will succeed in the long-term. I've also got the impression that Red has over-hyped their products/technology and maybe that will strike back.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 04:10:45 AM
I understand you personally dislike, for some bizarre reason, the MFD market. But making stuff up will not change that.

I have no dislike for the market or those that use MFD... however I do have an aversion to the marketing BS put out by some in the MFD industry, dealers
and MFD fanboys.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 21, 2013, 04:18:43 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I am guessing most people that own MF cameras and/or digital backs also own some other cameras too. The premiss that it's either a DLSR or an MFDB never made sense to me.

Indeed I think most have a DSLR too, also amateurs. I have a Canon system that I use frequently in addition to my tech camera. The cost-conscious amateur don't necessarily need a pro DSLR system, but can instead have a decent low cost consumer DSLR with one or two all-around zooms, which will cost like $1000. When one has a MFD system all other cameras seem like a bargain so there's no problem to have an extra camera or two ;).
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: hjulenissen on March 21, 2013, 04:25:09 AM
Q:Will Sony make a MF camera, salvaging parts from their mass-produced cameras as needed, resulting in a more stream-lined, modern and economical MF camera?

A:Did not Pentax allready do this?

Q: Will Sony introduce a MF CMOS sensor using similar technology as the D800 or D7100?

A: It seems that Sonys sensor division is willing to sell tech to anyone willing to pay the price. If there was a business-case to be made for developing and manufacturing a camera based on such a sensor, one might expect Sony or other manufacturers to have done this allready?

What could a Sony branded camera (or one using Sony technology) potentially offer that todays MF cameras does not offer? Higher pixel count? Better [email protected] ISO? Better high-ISO quality? Improved Liveview? More intuitive user interface? Lower price?

-h
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 21, 2013, 04:57:46 AM
I have no dislike for the market or those that use MFD... however I do have an aversion to the marketing BS put out by some in the MFD industry, dealers
and MFD fanboys.

Fandoyism always exist. I don't use the Red forum because
Of the incredible level of fanboyism involved, just can't deal
With it. I had a tech question on red color and posted here,
At the risk of having little or no imputs. This Forum is rather
Sweet and more than blind fanboyism, I see passion.

About the big R&D, you mentionned Sony. I hacen't seen so
Far a Sony dslr body in a plateau. No One use them. Sony
Is huge compared to Nikon and it's not a straight equation.
Not because they have the money they could reshape minolta.
They lost in high-isos race, they lost in marketing, etc...
Now they want to come in feature film territory and compete
With alexas and epics. They sold gazillion of f35, but in that
Niche market battle is far from being decided and they
Haven't been able to put Red or Arri out, despite its size and
The unlimited ressources they have. Red succeeded because
They had genuises and vision.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 21, 2013, 05:00:42 AM
Q:Will Sony make a MF camera, salvaging parts from their mass-produced cameras as needed, resulting in a more stream-lined, modern and economical MF camera?

A:Did not Pentax allready do this?

Problem with Pentax and Leica S is that it's not a digital back, you cannot use it on a tech camera.

From an amateur perspective I think tech cameras are much more interesting than MF-DSLR type of cameras, easier for a manufacturer to make business with that (at least for a smaller player) when 135-DSLR competition is tough. To me MF-DSLR is a pro studio camera, hand-held with lots of flashes etc. For the amateur it's harder to see the advantages and why it would be more fun to use than a regular DSLR which works in a very similar way and actually is more capable in many aspects. Tech cameras on the other hand is totally different, they look cool, is all-mechanical and basic, it's like playing with large format film but without the mess of actually using film.

I'm looking into eventually getting a second hand Hasselblad H2 just for fun because they can be had cheap and I happen to have a H-mount back for my tech camera. But an MF-DSLR is not something that attracts on its own as a complement to my 135-DSLR. Maybe if I had a studio and worked a lot with flashes, but for amateurs I think landscape photography is a much larger genre and for that a tech cam is just so much more fun.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 21, 2013, 05:08:14 AM
About the big R&D, you mentionned Sony. I hacen't seen so
Far a Sony dslr body in a plateau. No One use them.

I think we need to give Sony DSLRs more time, they need a better and more complete lens fleet for the system to be able to become a serious alternative to Nikon and Canon. They need put more focus on pro and advanced use. They'll get there eventually, and I think their market share will grow at the cost of Nikon and Canon.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 21, 2013, 05:36:39 AM
I think we need to give Sony DSLRs more time, they need a better and more complete lens fleet for the system to be able to become a serious alternative to Nikon and Canon. They need put more focus on pro and advanced use. They'll get there eventually, and I think their market share will grow at the cost of Nikon and Canon.

Yes, but they may succeed or may not. Panasonic for example, also a giant. Well, they had a big oportunity to compeat with the Canons (way smaller company) in this brand new market of dslrs-for-video. They had better electronics, better sensor implementation for video, bla bla...but they took some wrong decisions in some areas and they lost the oportunity. You find plenty of dslr Canon in video, included cine prods, very very little GH gear, even hacked. If their huge R&D is not targetted properly, if they lack of vision, or simply if they don't give the users the tools they want, size+money will not solve anything. This is a market that does not tolerate mistakes.

But I have the sensation that it's all about human ressources. A small company with the right people can defeat a giant. A big company with all the tech and R&D could loose battles if they make strategical mistakes (and they tend to make a lot). Then, they are very hard to correct. I doubt the pro market will embrace Sony dslrs as easy, even with a wide range of Zeiss signature lenses and pro service, not at least in the middle term. And they are probably not even interested in it.  

Look what happens with Apple. Nobody knows what will be the roadmap for their next macpros and now that windows are not the BS they used to be, and can put on the table much more powerfull workstations at less costs, the pros still stay Apple because it's hard to change habits and licenses and handle as they can the lack of power and uncertainties. Even if Apple becomes completly obsolete for the niche market (as they are targetting clearly the mass market now), people with continue to use Macpros for decades, even if they know they are becoming obsolete and can have better for cheaper.

I've been closely in touch with the Autodesk Smoke, because it's a soft to know if you want to have jobs here in the cine industry (in the end discarted it). Well, Smoke only serves Mac. There is a huge claim from the users, even the all-life Mac fanboys to get a windows-linux version because they lack power. Autodesk users were in flame with that (no pun intended), but in the end nobody changes and well, they get used to what they got and end to build a satisfactory workflow. How many FCP7 users have shifted to Adobe or Avid when FCPx shows-up? hands-up? They didn't, they stayed FCP7 in the vast majority.
I don't see this forum suddenly be Windows...even if Mac says: "boys, your niche doesn't interest us anymore, if you want to compose 3D in 6K in real time go to another drugstore". it's not going to happen and people will be using their macpros until the fan's blades desintegrate.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: bcooter on March 21, 2013, 06:18:30 AM
Fandoyism always exist. I don't use the Red forum because
Of the incredible level of fanboyism involved, just can't deal
With it. I had a tech question on red color and posted here,
At the risk of having little or no imputs. This Forum is rather
Sweet and more than blind fanboyism, I see passion.



I agree with you Fred, the RED forums can be informative and a good place to find equipment, but they can also be over the top about the RED cult.

Then again, lately our forums have become very negative coming from a small number of participants.

I work a lot of hours.

It's now 2:46 am and I'm putting a first cut online and working on a creative treatment due tomorrow.

I only go on these forums to learn, share but mostly to enjoy a brief break from my work.

I don't like negativity born out of personal agendas.  I like it when people share what works for them, I love it when they show interesting photographs,  but just to be negative turns me off.

I almost dropped out completely, but instead decided to block a few participants and rarely read what they post even if I'm not logged in.

I don't see the point and btw:  I don't really mind what anyone says as long as it's not purposely hurtful, as everyone has a different opinion.

What I find funny about these posts railing against larger than 35mm cameras is there is proof from the recent Phase One interview that most of these opinions are wrong.

In fact if I was the CEO of Phase I'd kind of have a chuckle to myself when I'd read that larger than 35mm is doomed, especially when they came off their best financial year.

Regardless of the minority though vocal opinion, medium format has more offerings and is more widespread today that it was 10 years ago.  We may have lost Sinar backs, but gained Pentax on the lower price scale, Leica and new Phase backs at the high end, Hasselblad in the middle.

All of their softwares and workflows are much more professional than they were even 6 years ago and in the case of C-1, they are the gold standard for tethering for almost every format.

I also find it curious that the people that are 100% positive that certain equipment is too expensive, won't buy it anyway, so I really doubt if Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad or Leica really pay any attention to those comments.

Me, my Leaf and subsequent Phase backs have been very, very profitable and good for my business.  My 2 RED 1's and Scarlets have been more than good for my business the last two years.

My old Leica M8 probably isn't that profitable, but a lot of fun.  

If people don't believe that, fine, because I just chuckle to myself.

My take is that most professional photographers have more than one system and I just bought a 1dx, have another one planned to purchase and even with that don't see them as a replacement to my REDS or my Phase backs, even though the 1dx for me shoots a great file with very nice skin tones and good video.

They're just different cameras for different purposes.

Now I also plan this year plan to buy a new medium format camera.  I'm waiting for the h5d to come out and test it within our workflow next to a Leaf and a Phase.

Don't know for sure if or what I'll buy, but i think this is going to be a very good year.

(Fingers crossed).

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 21, 2013, 06:43:03 AM

I agree with you Fred, the RED forums can be informative and a good place to find equipment, but they can also be over the top about the RED cult.

Then again, lately our forums have become very negative coming from a small number of participants.

I work a lot of hours.

It's now 2:46 am and I'm putting a first cut online and working on a creative treatment due tomorrow.

I only go on these forums to learn, share but mostly to enjoy a brief break from my work.

I don't like negativity born out of personal agendas.  I like it when people share what works for them, I love it when they show interesting photographs,  but just to be negative turns me off.

I almost dropped out completely, but instead decided to block a few participants and rarely read what they post even if I'm not logged in.

I don't see the point and btw:  I don't really mind what anyone says as long as it's not purposely hurtful, as everyone has a different opinion.

What I find funny about these posts railing against larger than 35mm cameras is there is proof from the recent Phase One interview that most of these opinions are wrong.

In fact if I was the CEO of Phase I'd kind of have a chuckle to myself when I'd read that larger than 35mm is doomed, especially when they came off their best financial year.

Regardless of the minority though vocal opinion, medium format has more offerings and is more widespread today that it was 10 years ago.  We may have lost Sinar backs, but gained Pentax on the lower price scale, Leica and new Phase backs at the high end, Hasselblad in the middle.

All of their softwares and workflows are much more professional than they were even 6 years ago and in the case of C-1, they are the gold standard for tethering for almost every format.

I also find it curious that the people that are 100% positive that certain equipment is too expensive, won't buy it anyway, so I really doubt if Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad or Leica really pay any attention to those comments.

Me, my Leaf and subsequent Phase backs have been very, very profitable and good for my business.  My 2 RED 1's and Scarlets have been more than good for my business the last two years.

My old Leica M8 probably isn't that profitable, but a lot of fun.  

If people don't believe that, fine, because I just chuckle to myself.

My take is that most professional photographers have more than one system and I just bought a 1dx, have another one planned to purchase and even with that don't see them as a replacement to my REDS or my Phase backs.

They're just different cameras for different purposes.

Now I also plan this year plan to buy a new medium format camera.  I'm waiting for the h5d to come out and test it within our workflow next to a Leaf and a Phase.

Don't know for sure if or what I'll buy, but i think this is going to be a very good year.

IMO

BC


Nice to read you James,

I agree with you about the forum. I was also posting as a brief fresh break, and decided to leave because in part it was a time consummer black-hole, I was studdying, lots and lots of hours on post-prod
and realised that Lu-La had started to be addictive for me and what was supposed to be breaf breaks became long distractions, posting each time more BS, just for posting and then it lacked sense and needed to be out. Well used, this is a great place to be and share.  

I really do not understand those recent strategical constant bombings on MF that I've never seen at this point before. Yes, we always had those thread wars MF vs DSLRs, but when I remember those times, they were sort of fun to read, completly useless but fun; it was like those pub's conversations were everybody speaks loud, argue strong to argue, but everybody's drinking beer at the same table. But the recent tonalities are very different. Sometimes I even miss Ray compared to what's on air now.

Glad that you're going to keep shooting MF.

Yeah, it smells a very good year too.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: torger on March 21, 2013, 07:39:33 AM
I still find it kind of entertaining, and think it's reasonable well-contained. The war-threads are quite obvious which they are, and as they are long I assume many find them to be great entertainment still. If you think someone is trolling the best method is to ignore.

I haven't seen any drop in usefulness of the forum in terms of getting help with problems or asking about methods to do things etc. It can be very educational, I would have never ventured into MF digital if it weren't for this forum.

A bit unfortunate though is that it is difficult to constructively discuss things that in parts does criticize the current state of things, it seems like people have become polarized, either all for or all against. I e either the MF companies is doing everything perfect and earns nothing but praise and all our money, or they are rotten to the bone and deserve to go under.

I think the current companies are missing business opportunities by sticking with a business model that suited the film photography pro generation 15 years ago, and I do think the companies would be healthier with a larger customer base, and I think there are ways to achieve this, by becoming more visible on the net, making it easier to buy things, and having attractive entry-level products rather than just attractive high-end products, and looking more into advanced amateurs' interests.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: hjulenissen on March 21, 2013, 07:48:49 AM
Problem with Pentax and Leica S is that it's not a digital back, you cannot use it on a tech camera.
Ahh. I need to read the question before hitting reply...

-h
Title: Will Sony Make a money losing halo product?
Post by: BJL on March 21, 2013, 09:58:20 AM
Lexus LFA ;)
Ah yes, the Toyota "halo product": according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_LFA)
Quote
Production ended in December 2012 with 500 vehicles completed, ...
which indeed was the stated plan all along: it was not an ongoing move into a new high-end product niche.

Does Sony want or need to spend many millions of dollars on a halo project like that (multiple good lenses are needed too!), done maybe to burnish the company's image a bit or just to satisfy some front-office egos, but losing a lot of money too? Hint: Sony is already losing a lot of money.

Anyway, a high end camera system cannot be done as a one-off like that: most customers would need assurance of continuity in things like lens development.

It is at least far less unlikely that Sony might become a MF sensor supplier. For example, the Pentax 645D currently uses a sensor from the now moribund Kodak/Truesense MF sensor catalog, so Pentax is probably looking for a new sensor source, and already works with Sony for sensors.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
I have no dislike for the market or those that use MFD... however I do have an aversion to the marketing BS put out by some in the MFD industry, dealers
and MFD fanboys.

So, you don't like the people running the MFD business and you just want to "get your own back"? So, it is a personal attack. This is interesting in light of want you do--celebrity portraiture and fashion. Talk about BS industries.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 02:26:46 PM
So, you don't like the people running the MFD business and you just want to "get your own back"? So, it is a personal attack. This is interesting in light of want you do--celebrity portraiture and fashion. Talk about BS industries.

Well, I believe what Fred was referencing re: marketing BS is the notion, which I've really only seen officially from Hasselblad and unofficially from kids, that to be a "Pro" you need medium format.  This is complete BS and devalues photographers in favor of gear.  As to attacking Phase's management or anyone else, I try to avoid reading too many of the "format wars" posts, so I'm not sure what else you are responding to.

As to fashion, well, there is lots of fluff on it but in the end its portraiture.  So no, its not a bullshit industry.  In fact, its more common to find art in fashion editorials and ads than in any other realm of commercial photography, and its often much better art that what purports to be fine art photography.  Fashion editorials are conversations between a photographer and whatever s/he is responding to, which generally is a vibe that is on the cutting edge of consciousness, or at least the mood, of the culture, which is moving so fast now, and consuming so much "content", that it is hard to keep up.  Sorry I went off on a tangent.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Vladimirovich on March 21, 2013, 02:50:50 PM
people with continue to use Macpros for decades, even if they know they are becoming obsolete and can have better for cheaper.
actually people will (actually it is not "will" - it is the current state) close their eyes and run OSX on PC... EULA ? well...  8)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: bcooter on March 21, 2013, 02:58:20 PM
.......snip............and devalues photographers in favor of gear.  As to attacking Phase's management or anyone else, I try to avoid reading too many of the "format wars" posts, so I'm not sure what else you are responding to.



T,

Sorry to go off topic.

I agree that equipment won't make the photographer more talented, or the photograph more compelling.

But as you know, today we live in a precarious world.

Client's want to be impressed. 

I'm not saying I'd buy a camera only because it might impress a client, but if it did, I sure as heck wouldn't complain.

Everything counts.

Looks shouldn't matter but they do, because whether we like it or not, appearances count and in todays urber competitive world, everything matters.

From estimates and creative treatments, to crew, facilities, equipment and client service  . . . everything is noticed, everything is compared, everything has a bottom line cost.

Clients are very serious about upping their game and getting all the value they can and they expect the same from all of their suppliers.

In response we have to run an expert, but not a lavish production.   We have to use what works but it's a plus if the client looks at the set and sees equipment that they don't see at the local camera store.

Now, nobody start screaming on that last comment, because I am not comparing camera formats or comparing level of talent. 

We all know a good photographer can get pretty much the same end results with a Nikon, Canon, Phase, Leaf or Hasselblad.

I think we also know that most working photographers also have more than one camera, usually more than one format.

I'm just commenting on what MY clients notice, what they respect, what they consider to be a positive experience and outcome.

This photo is a example of the above, from our shoot last week. 

By the last day Friday we could consolidate the wardrobe truck to the RV, the prop truck was not needed and the Lighting and Grip Van was consolidated to one truck so we returned two production vehicles the night before and saved a few dollars.  5 years ago we wouldn't have bothered, actually 5 years ago we would have had two RV's, just for comfort. 

(http://spotsinthebox.com/location_3_15_sm.jpg)

My point is 5 or 6 years ago this scene would look much different with many more vehicles, people and equipment.

Still, saving money is good and I guess we could have cut the RV and dressed the model in the back of a van, but there is a point where comfort and appearances matter.

Should anybody run out and buy a hasselblad to look more professional...No....I don't think so, but if you enjoy that camera or format and want to use it, it gets you the results and maybe a client notices, there is no downside to that.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 03:28:01 PM
T,

Sorry to go off topic.

I agree that equipment won't make the photographer more talented, or the photograph more compelling.

But as you know, today we live in a precarious world.

Client's want to be impressed. 

I'm not saying I'd buy a camera only because it might impress a client, but if it did, I sure as heck wouldn't complain.

Everything counts.

Looks shouldn't matter but they do, because whether we like it or not, appearances count and in todays urber competitive world, everything matters.

From estimates and creative treatments, to crew, facilities, equipment and client service  . . . everything is noticed, everything is compared, everything has a bottom line cost.

Clients are very serious about upping their game and getting all the value they can and they expect the same from all of their suppliers.

In response we have to run an expert, but not a lavish production.   We have to use what works but it's a plus if the client looks at the set and sees equipment that they don't see at the local camera store.

Now, nobody start screaming on that last comment, because I am not comparing camera formats or comparing level of talent. 

We all know a good photographer can get pretty much the same end results with a Nikon, Canon, Phase, Leaf or Hasselblad.

I think we also know that most working photographers also have more than one camera, usually more than one format.

I'm just commenting on what MY clients notice, what they respect, what they consider to be a positive experience and outcome.

This photo is a example of the above, from our shoot last week. 

By the last day Friday we could consolidate the wardrobe truck to the RV, the prop truck was not needed and the Lighting and Grip Van was consolidated to one truck so we returned two production vehicles the night before and saved a few dollars.  5 years ago we wouldn't have bothered, actually 5 years ago we would have had two RV's, just for comfort. 

(http://spotsinthebox.com/location_3_15_sm.jpg)

My point is 5 or 6 years ago this scene would look much different with many more vehicles, people and equipment.

Still, saving money is good and I guess we could have cut the RV and dressed the model in the back of a van, but there is a point where comfort and appearances matter.

Should anybody run out and buy a hasselblad to look more professional...No....I don't think so, but if you enjoy that camera or format and want to use it, it gets you the results and maybe a client notices, there is no downside to that.

IMO

BC

BC,

I agree with you 100%.  All I am saying is that Blad's marketing, or at least that one sentence, is ridiculous.  

If you are shooting jobs with honey wagons, good craft services and your crew isn't hung over and scaming work from the client, you probably own an MFD or at least have one on set.  Image is important, but Blad's messaging falls flat.  The copy writer needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something more subtle that conveys the importance of image without generating all this ill will.



Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 03:36:31 PM
I have to wonder, if these kids can't recognise BS when they see it then perhaps they're not cut out for the industry and should consider a career in dry walling? Are they really that naive?

Millenials are confounding.  I don't think they are cut out for much.  The ones that do sheet rock install are more savvy about life than the college educated kids.  I'm in advertising now, at an agency, and a big part of my job is finding messages that resonate with millenials.  You know what I've found, after countless focus groups?  The higher the socio-economic chain the more niave and sentimental they are.  They want to be street smart but are prone sentimental journies.  They distrust advertising but are voracious consumers of goods, advertising, and propoganda.  You can sell these kids wool scarves to wear in the summer, because they have some Bloomsbury fantasy floating around in their heads and think scarves are signifier of their "life style".  I could go on, and on, and on.  In fact, I attended a convention on the topic at MoMA last year.  The upshot:  the kids are not alright.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Rob C on March 21, 2013, 03:40:15 PM
Well, I believe what Fred was referencing re: marketing BS is the notion, which I've really only seen officially from Hasselblad and unofficially from kids, that to be a "Pro" you need medium format.  This is complete BS and devalues photographers in favor of gear.  As to attacking Phase's management or anyone else, I try to avoid reading too many of the "format wars" posts, so I'm not sure what else you are responding to.

As to fashion, well, there is lots of fluff on it but in the end its portraiture.  So no, its not a bullshit industry.  In fact, its more common to find art in fashion editorials and ads than in any other realm of commercial photography, and its often much better art that what purports to be fine art photography.  Fashion editorials are conversations between a photographer and whatever s/he is responding to, which generally is a vibe that is on the cutting edge of consciousness, or at least the mood, of the culture, which is moving so fast now, and consuming so much "content", that it is hard to keep up.  Sorry I went off on a tangent.


No, you didn't. You said something that needed saying, and I agree with you if only because I've been there, done that. The art/buzz of the job was why I had to do it. Money had nothing to do with it at first, and in my case, unfortunately, never did in any big way; I got by, paid the bills, fed the kids. But it was one helluva great ball to which to have held a ticket!

Rob C
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 03:46:03 PM
Nail, head. It's marketing, needs to be seen for what it is.

Exactly!  Seperate the marketing from the product.  The product is good, its a tool.  It does something really well.  Other things no so well.  The branding/marketing people need to concentrate on the truth of the product, its strengths.  Blad's marketing is designed well, the magazine is nice, but the strategy is a failure because it relies too much on sentimentality that may or may not live up to the truth of their products.  I ask myself this question:  what happens to the person who buys on sentimentality and emotion?  The come down can be rough if they don't get new business, if the client doesn't notice, and if they aren't Helmut Newton or Avedon after they shoot with it for a year.  Then there is a backlash, and people start posting in forums about how the product sucks.  Then someone from Blad has to counter it, but it generates ill will.  Thes eare my thoughts, I very well may be wrong, only a fool is certain yada yada.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 03:59:26 PM

No, you didn't. You said something that needed saying, and I agree with you if only because I've been there, done that. The art/buzz of the job was why I had to do it. Money had nothing to do with it at first, and in my case, unfortunately, never did in any big way; I got by, paid the bills, fed the kids. But it was one helluva great ball to which to have held a ticket!

Rob C

Your work is really wonderful.  

I think many people on this forum, as its landscape based, have misconceptions about fashion.  This is understandable, not many people in the general population read the better mags or have an understanding of what the industry is really about at its core, and the photographers who are a part of the artistic side of the industry.  Most people in the states think of American Vogue, Cosmo and Alure as fashion mags.  They are, but they are very mainstream.  Rarely is Grace Codidngton given the room to do what she wants.  It happens, but not nearly as much as in the European Vogue titles.  (As an aside, I think conflating fashion and celebrity was the worse thing that has ever happened to fashion magazines.  It roped in more readers, but man, at what cost?  Thanks Ms. Wintour for that culteral fuckery!).

 

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 04:00:17 PM
Hey, it could be people believe the BS. It could be me who is being naive.

They WANT to believe it, even when they know its probably not true.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 21, 2013, 04:08:56 PM
I think conflating fashion and celebrity was the worse thing that has ever happened to fashion magazines.  It roped in more readers, but man, at what cost?  Thanks Ms. Wintour for that culteral fuckery!).

I was about to write just that, and you get ahead!

N.Y Vogue and the ironwoman psychopatic saga...yeah. What was to expect with her? Nobody stands her but everybody fears her.

The prob is that now it's not just inside magz but the celeb culture is deeply anchoered into the fashion world as a way of life and unfortunatly it sweats from all the pores.

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: TMARK on March 21, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
I was about to write just that, and you get ahead!

N.Y Vogue and the ironwoman psychopatic saga...yeah. What was to expect with her? Nobody stands her but everybody fears her.

The prob is that now it's not just inside magz but the celeb culture is deeply anchoered into the fashion world as a way of life and unfortunatly it sweats from all the pores.

You nailed it.  Having a celeb on the cover will move a mag on the newsstands faster than an Irving Penn or Paolo Roversi cover of a professional model.  If people think fashion is vapid, it has nothing on celebrity culture, which is like fashion "Lite" or fashion with no ambiguity or sophistication.  Not always, there are exceptions, of course. W has good shooters shooting celebs, but its a colaboration.  Like the Steven Klein's celeb editorials with Brad Pitt, Bruce Willis (shot on Red) etc.  But the spreads aren't good BECAUSE its Brad Pitt or Bruce Willis.  The spreads are just good photography and good talent. 
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 05:45:05 PM
Well, I believe what Fred was referencing re: marketing BS is the notion, which I've really only seen officially from Hasselblad and unofficially from kids, that to be a "Pro" you need medium format.  This is complete BS and devalues photographers in favor of gear.  As to attacking Phase's management or anyone else, I try to avoid reading too many of the "format wars" posts, so I'm not sure what else you are responding to.

As to fashion, well, there is lots of fluff on it but in the end its portraiture.  So no, its not a bullshit industry.  In fact, its more common to find art in fashion editorials and ads than in any other realm of commercial photography, and its often much better art that what purports to be fine art photography.  Fashion editorials are conversations between a photographer and whatever s/he is responding to, which generally is a vibe that is on the cutting edge of consciousness, or at least the mood, of the culture, which is moving so fast now, and consuming so much "content", that it is hard to keep up.  Sorry I went off on a tangent.

Really, you take product advertising at its word? Do you really believe that shiny new sports car is going to make you younger and more handsome?? I have known for a very long time that there is no such thing as a "professional" camera. "Professional" is the most overused word in camera advertising. Is Fred confused about that?

Fashion is the objectification of women and men. Wear this and be beautiful. And if you are beautiful you will be loved and admired. Isn't that the messaging? Isn't it built on taking little girls and making them women--how perverse is that? Girls that end up staving themselves because of a twisted body image. Now, if you want to work in fashion and make a living from it, that is great. There has been a lot of advertising images I have enjoyed. But it is hardly some benign, innocent industry interesting in beauty and art.

Sorry, it does not matter whether the image maker is selling cameras, clothes, or sex, it comes down to the same thing.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 05:49:57 PM
Millenials are confounding.  I don't think they are cut out for much.  The ones that do sheet rock install are more savvy about life than the college educated kids.  I'm in advertising now, at an agency, and a big part of my job is finding messages that resonate with millenials.  You know what I've found, after countless focus groups?  The higher the socio-economic chain the more niave and sentimental they are.  They want to be street smart but are prone sentimental journies.  They distrust advertising but are voracious consumers of goods, advertising, and propoganda.  You can sell these kids wool scarves to wear in the summer, because they have some Bloomsbury fantasy floating around in their heads and think scarves are signifier of their "life style".  I could go on, and on, and on.  In fact, I attended a convention on the topic at MoMA last year.  The upshot:  the kids are not alright.

As every generation before them. That includes you and me and our parents and grandparents all the way back to the dawn of time. Each generation looks back and says exactly the same thing about the generation following them. And that younger generation can't understand us either, just like we did not understand our parents. That is called life.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: BJL on March 21, 2013, 06:20:54 PM
Millenials are confounding.  I don't think they are cut out for much.  ...  the kids are not alright.
Be careful, or you will confirm the prejudice that the main remaining market for MF is change-resisting grumpy old men.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Rob C on March 21, 2013, 06:24:44 PM
As every generation before them. That includes you and me and our parents and grandparents all the way back to the dawn of time. Each generation looks back and says exactly the same thing about the generation following them. And that younger generation can't understand us either, just like we did not understand our parents. That is called life.



But what we are on about here has nothing to do with generation: it's to do with culture.

Rob C
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
Quote
I have no dislike for the market or those that use MFD... however I do have an aversion to the marketing BS put out by some in the MFD industry, dealers
and MFD fanboys.

So, you don't like the people running the MFD business and you just want to "get your own back"? So, it is a personal attack. This is interesting in light of want you do--celebrity portraiture and fashion. Talk about BS industries.

I never said I don't like the people in the MFD industry or their dealers.... i said I have an aversion to bullshit especially when it is used in marketing of very expensive tools to people
working hard on a career.

As for your accusation of "get your own back" and that what I do professionally is BS... well I find it really quite silly....

Let me tell you a little something. The other day I was at a store here in LA that is an MF dealership for both the big names in MF.
Well I had shown the guys behind the MFD counter some of my work and this time around had brought them some prints
of celebrities they were big fans of. They were samples from my future book of some 300 unpublished celebrity portraits.
I gave them several prints. Iggy Pop, Tommy Chong, Tommy Lee, Sting. Does that sound like a vendetta to you?

As for the fashion industry and the celebrity phenomenon. It's entertainment. The presence of Celebrities on the covers and in the spreads has a lot to do with what readers are interested in.
It's partly about being fans, but it also has a lot to do with women today that are more interested in famous beautiful successful people
that win oscars, produce multi million dollar movies, are talented, are often also mothers, are often over 20 and sometimes 50.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Rob C on March 21, 2013, 07:16:29 PM
Your work is really wonderful.  

I think many people on this forum, as its landscape based, have misconceptions about fashion.  This is understandable, not many people in the general population read the better mags or have an understanding of what the industry is really about at its core, and the photographers who are a part of the artistic side of the industry.  Most people in the states think of American Vogue, Cosmo and Alure as fashion mags.  They are, but they are very mainstream.  Rarely is Grace Codidngton given the room to do what she wants.  It happens, but not nearly as much as in the European Vogue titles.  (As an aside, I think conflating fashion and celebrity was the worse thing that has ever happened to fashion magazines.  It roped in more readers, but man, at what cost?  Thanks Ms. Wintour for that culteral fuckery!).

 


Thanks for the compliment – apart from surprising me, it made my day, which by 11.28pm had done very little else to raise my spirits – so thanks again for renewing my faith in the eleventh hour!

Grace Coddington used to be a model too, until misfortune ruined it for her, though I imagine she’s had a far longer career in editorial work than modelling could have provided. There was a film shot a couple of years ago about the making of the September issue of US Vogue in which she featured quite strongly, and it became crystal clear that she had her own opinions about how the place functioned – a brave lady, but perhaps she knew her value.

I watched the link Fred supplied about Vogue España  - but the thing is, Testino didn’t just come out of nowhere as a snapper: he was already very well connected in South American society, and none of that gets in the way of one’s climb! Especially when it isn’t really about money. That can annoy the hell out of many people who need both money and the work, but if you happen to be the golden boy, do you care – should you care?

The point was made by ‘guy with…’ that fashion is about the changing of very young girls into women, steallng their youth. What nonsense! Young girls don’t figure: young girls have no money. The only reason some young girls have a part is because they are young and, consequently, they have a naïve quality that can photograph well, and their skin is pretty much better than that of women of the age to buy the product. If anything, young girls are a damned nuisance in a working environment because they create responsibilities that folks don’t need. But, if you dig beyond the stuff written about the ‘younger girls’ in the business, you must be blind not to realise that the women making the money and getting the top work are not really all that young anymore. Last time I looked, Ms Moss was still actively employed. That kids are idiots isn’t the fault of a magazine editor or photographer: if anything, where the hell are the parents? If you need to find someone to blame, look for the goddam dealers.

As for fashion being objectification – that sounds so very innocent a concept that I can hardly believe it was written by a photographer active today. Objectification of women by themselves, then? You don’t believe that women actually enjoy clothes, shoes, looking the best that they can? There’s a kind of sense in that view that is divorced from any experience that I have had of females in my entire life. It has the same provenance as has the belief that girls only like dolls because their mothers give them to them as toddlers. If anyone believes that, I suggest they take themselves off to a third-world state and have a look at the really, really poor children at play: maternal instincts are always there, and where mother can’t give the little daughter anything, hardly even food, you won’t find a pretty, pink china doll but you will find a bit of wood with some rags wrapped around it that represents the very same urge. It’s inborn. It’s life.

It’s also bedtime,. So buenas noches, world.

Rob C
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 07:36:25 PM


But what we are on about here has nothing to do with generation: it's to do with culture.

Rob C

Well, it must be so ingrained in the culture that it is the same for each generation.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 07:47:49 PM
I never said I don't like the people in the MFD industry or their dealers.... i said I have an aversion to bullshit especially when it is used in marketing of very expensive tools to people
working hard on a career.

As for your accusation of "get your own back" and that what I do professionally is BS... well I find it really quite silly....

Let me tell you a little something. The other day I was at a store here in LA that is an MF dealership for both the big names in MF.
Well I had shown the guys behind the MFD counter some of my work and this time around had brought them some prints
of celebrities they were big fans of. They were samples from my future book of some 300 unpublished celebrity portraits.
I gave them several prints. Iggy Pop, Tommy Chong, Tommy Lee, Sting. Does that sound like a vendetta to you?

As for the fashion industry and the celebrity phenomenon. It's entertainment. The presence of Celebrities on the covers and in the spreads has a lot to do with what readers are interested in.
It's partly about being fans, but it also has a lot to do with women today that are more interested in famous beautiful successful people
that win oscars, produce multi million dollar movies, are talented, are often also mothers, are often over 20 and sometimes 50.


Well, you either have a real problem in separating reality from marketing and so are "shocked" when you see it, or your are simply bashing the MFD market because of some personal reason. You certainly know nothing about the camera manufacturing industry.

Right, the fashion industry and celebrity mill is just BS. Those industries hugely distort their image to con people to want it. Selling lifestyles that are pure fantasy--at least with Phase, you get a camera. And what great lifestyles too--how is Kim K doing? (And MFD is cheap compared to fantasy celebrity lifestyles.)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: MrSmith on March 21, 2013, 08:08:22 PM
Camera makers are selling a dream too (all of them) they make you think you will create beautiful imagery and capture memories that will live forever, and you need the new and improved to get more affirmation for your vanity purchasing from your peers on Flickr.
99% of the resulting imagery is cats and sunsets. >:(
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 08:23:11 PM
Well, you either have a real problem in separating reality from marketing and so are "shocked" when you see it, or your are simply bashing the MFD market because of some personal reason. You certainly know nothing about the camera manufacturing industry.

But you're the expert aren't you because your name here on the forum is theguywitha645D

Funny thing is that a leading pro equipment manufacturer and world wide distributor of pro gear invited me up to his factories
for a few days to sit down with his designers and brainstorm. Luxury hotel and fine dining included.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 09:00:33 PM
But you're the expert aren't you because your name here on the forum is theguywitha645D

Funny thing is that a leading pro equipment manufacturer and world wide distributor of pro gear invited me up to his factories
for a few days to sit down with his designers and brainstorm. Luxury hotel and fine dining included.

Well, my former employer, Minolta and then Konica Minolta Photo Imaging, put me with the product teams that actually designed the cameras, scanners, and software. I just got a company apartment and had to buy my own food, but then it was a job for me. Part of my job was to write the initial press release for the products for all markets outside Japan. Inside the company, I just worked with the engineers, marketers, and QC guys on the production of the products. But I guess a few days at a factory just made you the expert. I know about "experts" invited to the factory. We had them too. Great marketing gimmick.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 21, 2013, 09:13:11 PM
645D,

You are pointing ethics and values. We, as humans, are living in both spiritual and physical form. All that is a big game in the world of form. We're just playing, nothing is serious. A camera is a toy, a more sophisticated toy that replaces the toys we where playing with when kids. A gun is also a toy. Those are all toys for adults playing games in the world of forms, creating and destructing, doing and de-do all the time. Nothing all what we do has real value because all what we do is already destined to disappear at some point. Even earth will disappear, even the sun.

So fashion is not pretending talking about the Genesis or finding the dynamics of black holes singularity, nor establishing eternal values. It's all about shapes and forms, linked to seduction, desire, attraction, sophistication, etc...all the forms. Fashion is very very rarely spiritual, only in the hands of few, very few masters that were able to transcend the mask, but it should be at least elegant and not vulgar as we see too often.

There is no danger in that. The problem is, when people confund everything and put the values of the form above all. That's when fashion can become a total distortion. Same as money. Not a danger in itself, it becomes dangerous when money is all.
It's all about the use we make with our tools-toys. Nowdays, apparences are all. That's a distortion. Apparences aren't evil in itself. It's what we project and beleive as values that are.

TMARK pointed something important, is that there has been a drifting in the lastest years, where fashion as a great art form, started to be mixed, associated and recuperated with celeb. Celeb is 100% ego, therefore 100% false. Fashion by essence isn't. Fashion has been manipulated, reduced to its heavier and lowest expression by people who are not interested in art in form. A decadence always starts like that.

I am just rattling Fred's cage. Nothing is ever that simple--unless it is the camera business a la Fred. But the is the wonderful thing about the internet, there are lots of big brushes we can paint with. Naturally, even in the fashion world there is a huge spread from L. L. Bean catalogs to Vogue or whatever the top outlets are--I have certainly enjoyed fashion, but I don't follow it closely.

I also think we look at the past with rose-colored specs, as every generation does. What was superficial and trite becomes the classic forms of an era. HCB was branded with the snapshot aesthetics, a pejorative. Today he is the god of street--he is good, but not that good. You can see the cycle no matter which period you look at--Bach, Mozart, van Gogh, Picasso, Wolfe, Pollack, Warhol, Hockney, and a whole host of artists were at one point in their career or reputation looked down on before they were elevated to greatness. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: Ken Doo on March 21, 2013, 09:14:46 PM
Quite frankly, I'd rather listen to someone who actually has and uses a medium format digital camera, e.g., a 645D, rather than someone who bought an old MFDB, had it but for a scant few weeks/months, and couldn't get it to work for them, yet still feels compelled in an overbearing paternalistic manner to warn others about the dangers of medium format digital.  There's really no need to protect those ignorant uneducated young photographers anymore, since medium format digital is dead anyway, right?   ::)    ;)

Maybe that paternalistic instinct would be better served warning impoverished debt-ridden masses from listening to misleading automobile advertising that induces these poverty stricken families to purchase (and further customize) expensive cars, rather than put food on the table or pay the rent.   :'(  Thank God, we've found a new saviour.   ;)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 11:07:10 PM
Fashion lite, I like that. Yes, very very lite, with zero %.

The thing is that celeb is easy and fast money, quick to set, zero creativity, except the cases you mentionned. And ironically, photographers feel that they become "someone" when they do celeb because they are part of the pathetic show...well, it's like an interviewer who would think is part of the Rolling Stones because he interviews them. But from a celeb point of view, in 99% of the cases, they are servants. They are some truth colaborations but are numbered.

Watch that: http://www.vogue.es/videos/mario-testino-y-vogue-espana/1707
With this lite music, lite comments it just kills the fish. And I haven't find some real footage of the celeb party: baroque, gayish, snobish lite lite lite...ridiculously corny; watch specialy the end, MT negligible is telling all; the photos were good, but that's what's arround that stinks.


Gayish, snobish?.... do you have a problem with gays..... sounds like we have a homophobe on the forum... great ::)

What is your problem. To me it seems to be a nice production wrap party.
I watched the video and just saw a lot of enthusiasm and happy people.
Mario is a very amicable person and takes beautiful images of his subjects.
He doesn't have even the slightest snobbish attitude and everyone I know who has shot with him
seem to speak about him with a sort of affection.
I particularly like how he doesn't take himself too seriously.
He's soft spoken and open minded with a sense of the times.
I think what you are missing here is that these are all people that work hard
and know how to unwind.
Some brilliant people at the party...
Rossy de Palma... brilliant actress

http://youtu.be/I8h_bSf9PVY (http://youtu.be/I8h_bSf9PVY)

Loles León... another brilliant actress... extrordinary in MUJERES AL BORDE DE UN ATAQUE DE NERVIOS

Bebe  one of my favorite singers

http://youtu.be/n79LFcX19Gw (http://youtu.be/n79LFcX19Gw)

She wrote Malo an amaizing song about violence against women

http://youtu.be/01d0UhR75CI (http://youtu.be/01d0UhR75CI)


Here is a little something....a though on covers

http://youtu.be/prj8IZmYfLE (http://youtu.be/prj8IZmYfLE)

Vinila von Bismark is so damn cool I don't know where to start

http://youtu.be/0wFtnZwE03A (http://youtu.be/0wFtnZwE03A)

http://youtu.be/tu-r_684zd0 (http://youtu.be/tu-r_684zd0)

I really hope I get a chance to work with her.

fredjeang.... that stinks? That's a lot of talent and fantastic characters.

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 11:35:27 PM

Fashion is the objectification of women and men. Wear this and be beautiful. And if you are beautiful you will be loved and admired. Isn't that the messaging? Isn't it built on taking little girls and making them women--how perverse is that? Girls that end up staving themselves because of a twisted body image. Now, if you want to work in fashion and make a living from it, that is great. There has been a lot of advertising images I have enjoyed. But it is hardly some benign, innocent industry interesting in beauty and art.


I really find this ridiculous. The fashion business is not built on taking little girls
and turning them into women.

let me tell you a story about taking a little girl and "making her a woman".
I photographed a pretty young girl that had a debilitating handycap. I was asked to photograph her by one of her doctors.
She had brain damage and severe motory problems. She would move in a very shaky and un co-ordinated manner.
The photos came out rally well and gave her a massive boost in confidence. Her doctors said the effect was a dramatic improvement.
The confidence she gained made it much easier to control her movement and her shaking.
The best part of the story is that I showed this image to Vogue Spain and they loved it and ran it as the cover of their beauty section.
You can only imagine how this lovely little girl felt when I showed her the magazine in the news stand on the streets of Milan.
I still get cards from her and her family 20 years later.

The Fashion business like many other is made up of a very diverse group of people. There are all types, there is a lot of good will and heaps of generosity.


Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 21, 2013, 11:59:21 PM
Absolutly. Cyclic.

MT was a great photographer, but now, from the top, the game escapes from his control and he is starting to sink into a caricature of itself, and it's even sad to see him ridiculous like in the link I posted.
Same happened to KL. From the top, he sunk into decadence and now barely a caricature of what he used to be.
The night, the fame, you know all those photocall BS are just eating people.

The few who have been enough clever to stay away from parties and didn't want to be part of the celebs festin when they were on the top are still making great stuff.
Sunk into decadence? For having a bit of fun and being confident enough to not take himself too seriously.

So it seems we have a puritan on the forum....

For other reading here take a look at Mario's philanthropy and support of artists

http://www.mariotestino.com/philanthropy/ (http://www.mariotestino.com/philanthropy/)
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: theguywitha645d on March 22, 2013, 12:40:30 AM
I really find this ridiculous. The fashion business is not built on taking little girls
and turning them into women.

let me tell you a story about taking a little girl and "making her a woman".
I photographed a pretty young girl that had a debilitating handycap. I was asked to photograph her by one of her doctors.
She had brain damage and severe motory problems. She would move in a very shaky and un co-ordinated manner.
The photos came out rally well and gave her a massive boost in confidence. Her doctors said the effect was a dramatic improvement.
The confidence she gained made it much easier to control her movement and her shaking.
The best part of the story is that I showed this image to Vogue Spain and they loved it and ran it as the cover of their beauty section.
You can only imagine how this lovely little girl felt when I showed her the magazine in the news stand on the streets of Milan.
I still get cards from her and her family 20 years later.

The Fashion business like many other is made up of a very diverse group of people. There are all types, there is a lot of good will and heaps of generosity.




No dark side to the fashion industry?

So, this is the point. You come here not knowing how the camera manufacturing business works and make up all kinds of rubbish. Well, it is a cheap shot. Just like me painting an extreme image of the fashion industry. I get tired of the BS about the industry I worked in. Just as much as you probably don't like the brush I am painting your industry with. The camera business is full of talented dedicated professional, just like your industry. And I have no doubt of your talent and ability. Stick to what you know.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 22, 2013, 01:29:41 AM
No dark side to the fashion industry?

So, this is the point. You come here not knowing how the camera manufacturing business works and make up all kinds of rubbish. Well, it is a cheap shot. Just like me painting an extreme image of the fashion industry. I get tired of the BS about the industry I worked in. Just as much as you probably don't like the brush I am painting your industry with. The camera business is full of talented dedicated professional, just like your industry. And I have no doubt of your talent and ability. Stick to what you know.

After 30 years in professional photography I know a thing or two about cameras I have used and what it's like buying them.
I'm the first to say that the camera industry if full of amazing engineers and produce gear that empower photographers.
Talking about Minolta.... The Minolta Color Meter was one of my essential tools as a photographer shooting all over Europe in different rental studios Checking the lights for color balance
was really important. I've sent flash head back to the rental room many a time.

I've also bought cameras on and off for 30 years. One learns a thing or two about the marketing.
In some cases it's blatent missinformation. MFD digital just seems to put out more of it.
One doesn't even have to be an expert for god's sake. Just look at the USB thing. Phase and Mamiyaleaf have had claims of USB3
on their websites scince the backs were launched. Only a few days ago beta software was made available.
NOWHERE on their two websites did it say it did not work yet. That is bullshit and theirs plenty more.

Anyway I think it's not worth spending anymore time arguing with a homophobic puritan.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 22, 2013, 01:36:28 AM
Anyway I think it's not worth spending anymore time arguing with a homophobic puritan.

That language is a bit harsh.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 22, 2013, 03:44:21 AM
That language is a bit harsh.

Yes you are right I did use harsh language and I stand behind what I said. I will not stand by
and do nothing when I see bigotry. Denigrating someone for his sexual orientation whatever that may be
is unacceptable to me and a response using harsh language is the least I can do.

Do you not find it harsh that he denigrates Mario Testino for being gayish, calling him decadent for
enjoying himself at a party.

I wonder if theguywitha645D even understands Spanish and listened to the video he posted the link to.


Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: MrSmith on March 22, 2013, 04:43:52 AM
I still come out in a cold sweat when I think back to shooting for 3 months in a car studio and having to deal with serious noise issues with flexcolour for Hblad/imacon (the scanning software that was made to work as capture software) we were emailing the factory pleading for the software updates, this is exactly the kind of attitude Fred is on about, get the product out there worry about it later.
It's like the new and improved long exposure backs, the elephant in the room is the dark frame of the same duration, but let's not talk about that.
I don't drink anyone's cool-aid if it's got a whif of bullshit about it.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 22, 2013, 02:56:40 PM

 ;D a lot of vociferous words here. In a way, I can understand them.

Personaly, I don't feel absolutly attacked nor concern by  homophobic puritan. I think Fred readed selectively what he wanted.

My best friend is gay, 2 of my very good friends are gays, I've been working many times with gays, I'm actually invited to their homes and parties
and always had great respect, and received the same respect from them.
I am one of the very few men that is allowed and welcome to enter in a private lesbian bar here, and I've been helping many times some gay or lesbian
in their carreer acheivement or personal problems and also received help from them.

Actually, you might know a Little less than I do the gay world. If you knew it, you'd know that "gayish" is a term they actually use themselves as "falling into" when
they tend to fall-or been trapped into a certain kind of parade. Themselves, use frequently those expressions for describing certain type of things.
A gay person would have actually smelled perfectly what was the real meaning of my thoughts in the context I was describing.
As puritan, I won't talk about my private life here, but...well...if I'd say to people who know me: "hey, this guy told me I'm puritan", I think everybody would fall laughin in tears.
But that's not the point, as I said, I don't felt concerned by those attacks, it's like Fred was talking about someone else, so no objection,
no problem, nothing wrong. Fred doesn't know me personaly and couldn't know from where I was using certain words and why.
I can understand why such a visceral reaction from him (or someone else). Then, If someone responds with agressivity or harshness, (whatever the subject is, whatever the person is, it's the person's concern).

Fred used the lenguaje he feels like to, according to what he understood or wanted to understand of my post. Actually the points that Fred was making on my "evil" post were not the ones I was trying to explain. Nothing to do with Testino talents and merits. Nothing to do with hard work. Nothing to do with people having fun and having good time, nothing to do with MT recognition and sweetness others feels with him, nothing to do with the quality of his pictures etc etc...none of the points Fred mentionned had something to do with what I was talking about. But I won't re-write differently in order to precise better my points and try to be understood. That would be loosing time and turning arround concepts that have nothing to do with the thread.
As I don't write in my native lenguaje, well, that's what is and it's always a risk to be misinterpretated. (if I see that even between same native lenguaje posters misinterpretations are legions...so)

Everything's perfectly fine for me. No offense felt. Not concerned.

Precisions made and time to move on.

Cheers.

 

Who do you think you are fooling trying to wiggle your way out of this one.

What you said was very clear...

Quote
baroque, gayish, snobish lite lite lite...ridiculously corny; watch specialy the end, MT negligible is telling all; the photos were good, but that's what's arround that stinks.

You denigrate Mario Testino as gayish, snobish.. rediculously corny and in the same sentence say it STINKS.

You go on to call it decadent.... and this is the video you were talking about...

http://www.vogue.es/videos/mario-testino-y-vogue-espana/1707 (http://www.vogue.es/videos/mario-testino-y-vogue-espana/1707)

If you could actually understand what was talked about in the video you might have caught
that it was a wrap party of the issue of Vogue Spain that he shot, but not only
was he the photographer but he was the guest director of the issue.
That is what I call being on top of the game. World class photographer and invited to direct an issue of Vogue.

You call this party decadent, say gayish stinks and then want us to believe you are some sort
of career advisor for gays and the darling of a private lesbian bar.

Who do you think you are kidding. It's typical for idiots that let their real bigotry show
to try to cover it up like you are.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: sgilbert on March 22, 2013, 03:06:42 PM
"Anyway I think it's not worth spending anymore time arguing with a homophobic puritan."

But you're going to do it anyway, right?
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 22, 2013, 04:06:03 PM
To FredBGG

And go on and on and on....like the Little nervous dog that doesn't want to release the toy

I wrote time to move-on, been more tan educated with you, now being treated as an idiot, inventing some sort of carreer advisor for gays or lesbians that you just interpretated from my words,
just inventing, interpretating, Reading what you want and more importantly, thinking that you know and that you are important.

Let me tell you mister Fred what I think of you before I wisedly disable in this forum your sickening and agressive posts.

You is just ego. And you have a huge problem with your ego and should consult a guru or a psy. There is a lot of work to do here.

Constantly critisizing and judging people, constantly attacking MF users, being harsh when you read something that is not according to your beleif,
allowing you to litterally insult when nobody insulted you.

Giving constant lessons in this forum from some sort of knowledge that makes you beleive you are on the top.

The thing is that you'd like to be at the top, but you're not.
But, mister Fred, if you really were at the top, 1) you wouldn't have time to post all those crapperies on MF that we read all the time
2) you would not even feel the need to talk about those things nor being rude to anybody

You are insecure, you have a completly immoderate ego, and you feel superior.

In short: poor person indeed.

From now on, I won't have the privilege to read your stupid posts so no need to answer, don't loose more time on that.

fredjeang2, I think this response says more about YOU than it does about me.

While you choose to denigrate celebrities and the successful (I'm refering to Testino) saying they are lite lite lite, decadent, gayish, corny bla bla bla
make fun of how they dance.. bla bla...

In reality though this is the sort of thing they do and often do so before much of society follows.
http://www.deadline.com/2013/03/amy-pascal-asks-hollywood-to-eliminate-gay-slurs-stereotypes-from-movies/ (http://www.deadline.com/2013/03/amy-pascal-asks-hollywood-to-eliminate-gay-slurs-stereotypes-from-movies/)

Mario happens to have opened a free clinic for children in his home town among other things.
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 22, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Back on topic, check out this.
http://fotodioxpro.com/index.php/vizelex-rhinocam-for-sony-nex-e-mount-cameras.html

Digital back made for sony...  ???
Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 22, 2013, 07:11:44 PM
Back on topic, check out this.
http://fotodioxpro.com/index.php/vizelex-rhinocam-for-sony-nex-e-mount-cameras.html

Digital back made for sony...  ???

8 frame rectilinear stitch, but the quality is quite amazing.
Ground glass for composition and live view for fine focus.
rectilinear frames are very easy to stitch.
Significantly higher quality than 40 and 60 mp sensors.

(http://fotodioxpro.com/RhinoCam_Images/website/vrc-crop-demo-4up.jpg)

They are also making more compact two frame stitch options for D800 etc.

I have a few Fotodiox adapters and they are nicely built. It this camera has a similar built it should be really quite nice.

Title: Re: Will Sony Make a Digital Back?
Post by: michael on March 22, 2013, 09:36:30 PM
No more insults, no more accusations or the thread will be closed.

Michael