Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: Morgan_Moore on March 18, 2013, 05:41:40 pm

Title: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 18, 2013, 05:41:40 pm
Hi just got v7 to make my new D600 work

Im bombarded with some weird file management stucture BS - sessions, collections or what not

I just want to browse my folders as I did with C1.6

Is there a way to do that?

Do I need the express version not the pro version - if so can I downgrade!

--

Separately (or not) I have a client attends their photo shoots - it would be easy (and acceptable) for me to put the raw files on to their machine.. then work my copy of the files and then send a small data file to them to apply to their copy of the images.

Thanks

S

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 02:31:46 am
Im totally lost here - P1 seem to have some language issues

Here is my understanding of some words..

Session - Drinking a lot of beer

Album - 33RPM record

Collection - thing done by a charity short of cash.

User - drug addict

Collection - shelf full of broken film cameras

----

Seriously I don't have to keep my head in the sand here but i'm pretty short on finding resources how to use all of this stuff

The mystical archiving in LightRoom and Aperture are the very reason that I has sold me C1 for the last 5 years or so.

I guess C1 is now forcing you to add images (or reference there-to) a database

So where is this database? - do I need to back it up. is it large, can it be shared?

The database references images - what happens if I move my images, around on the computer/on/offline (YES They get lost)

If I delete an image (from my machine) does the DB 'know' of just think its offline -

What a mess.













Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 02:46:23 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1uj5ytvklo&feature=player_embedded

The first words are 'c1p7 now has the option of storing your images as a catalogue

if it is an option who do I use c1 without taking that option up

I just want to take a raw file, give it a look and export as a tiff or jpg - is it that hard?

I have my own catalogue running since 2002 on millions of images and dont need a new one

S
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 02:58:36 am
Nice I just found; "Pictures: Capture One Library" 542mb (of what) from one little corporate shoot
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 20, 2013, 04:25:05 am
Morgan,

You can use Sessions exactly as before in Capture One 6.  That is what you were doing, but maybe inadvertently.

In any Session you can browse system folders... like you were doing in Capture One 6.

Goto File>New Session and continue as you did, in Capture One 6.

David

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 04:54:10 am
Thanks - life saver! That seems to work.

I see - sort of.

In my years of C1 ive never used (knowingly) a session

It now opens using 'untitled session' and works as expected

Still no idea what a session is or why I need one..

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: makaphoto on March 20, 2013, 05:22:32 am
Morgan
You're speaking out of my heart! The file system of C1 7 Pro to me is a mess too. So, I'm trying to stay with sessions as David Grover recommends. But be aware: sessions have changed too: Like you, i was happily browsing through folders back in C1 6 (not being aware that this is called a session and thus was moving on unstable grounds). Now with C1 7, if  you move a file into a different folder it will be gone (means: hidden from your view). You will have to open a new session to make it visible again in that other folder. Is this a bug? We don't know.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 06:34:51 am
Ill watch that!

Overall Im sure C1 catalogue is a good thing - maybe - but coming from 10 years on another system (MS access) it will not be easy to sell it to me

Hitting the new version on deadline for delivering some images was not a good idea - but thats life - shoot on new camera because old one was bust - grab the software upgrade to read the files.

But it seems like a lot of button presses - if Phase want people to move to thier system I think their videos need to be a lot more clear

there are so many questions that spring to mind for an old cynic like me when looking at a new way of doing things..
offline HDs,
moving deleting,
backing up
cumbersome duplicates filling up the HD
background processes slowing machine
bla bla

those things that Ap and Lr are so guilty of!

S

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 20, 2013, 06:45:22 am


Hi Maka,

No, that definitely shouldn't happen!  If you move an image it shouldn't disappear.  Have you raised it with support?

I don't exclusively recommend Sessions.  I recommend what's right for you.

Hi Morgan,

Want to know what a Session is?  You'll understand it in a few minutes..

http://youtu.be/_FcfE67Ln_4

I would disagree its a mess - somewhat new perhaps!  But you can

a) Still use a session
b) Browse the system folder if you wish
c) Use a Catalog for a whole bunch of other advantages!

Can I recommend you join a future Webinar or Catalogs?

http://www.phaseone.com/en/FooterMenu/Events.aspx

27th March.  9AM and 4PM GMT.   Free to join.

David



Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 06:56:29 am
That video does not tell me what a session is in any way at all.

Listen to the audio from that video, maybe write it down and you will see that it does not tell what it is.

It tells me they are 'popular', 'still supported', 'traditional', etc but not what one is or why I should want one.

I guess a 'session' is a small file/folder inside the  folder of images that stores information prescient to the C1 experience, changes to WB, variants, etc.

but that is just a guess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session

That document/file could e known as an EDL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edit_decision_list) or many other things

S








Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 20, 2013, 09:36:38 am
That video does not tell me what a session is in any way at all.

Listen to the audio from that video, maybe write it down and you will see that it does not tell what it is.

It tells me they are 'popular', 'still supported', 'traditional', etc but not what one is or why I should want one.

I guess a 'session' is a small file/folder inside the  folder of images that stores information prescient to the C1 experience, changes to WB, variants, etc.

but that is just a guess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session

That document/file could e known as an EDL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edit_decision_list) or many other things

S





I don't have to write the audio down as I wrote the script...

A Session is a simple way of keeping all elements from a shoot or project in one place.  Basically we have a straightforward folder structure to help us organise our images.


voiceover
The Session folder we named has a number of other folders and files inside it.  The first file is the Session file.

voiceover
Double-clicking on this will open the Session in Capture One Pro 7.

voiceover
The next folder contains the image files we just imported.

voiceover
It also contains a subfolder which has settings information for each of the images.

voiceover
The Output folder contains processed image files.

voiceover
The Selects folder can be used to store the best images from a Session.

voiceover
Finally, the trash folders contains any images deleted from a Session.  However, they can still be retrieved if necessary.  To permanently delete them, choose ‘Empty Session Trash’ from the file menu.


That part describes every folder in the finder one by one.

I am not sure how it could be any clearer?

David
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 10:23:25 am
But I have a way of keeping my shoots organised and in one place.. a folder (aka directory)

desktop->images->2013_03_20_myclient

Containing
RawCard1-n
TiffSelect1-n
Web_500px
 etc.

Been doing this for a decade.

So the video doesn't explain what a session is or what it does or why as it appears to solve a problem I don't have - keeping everything together?

I guess a session is a file(+bits) that mean the edit decisions don't get separated from the images and those decisions are (legitimately) considered to be an 'element' of the shoot?

If that is the case do I need a new session for every folder I work on or what etc etc?

I need everything to be in the folder "2013_03_20_myclient" as that folder can get moved all over the place - different machines and then offline to backup HDs

==

Believe me Im a massive fan of C1 and the images rendered and the GUI, just this upgrade threw me a little and now im feeling a little lost.

ANd thanks for taking the time to answer BTW..


Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 20, 2013, 12:16:03 pm
Morgan....You are not alone....You are in the MAJORITY!!
I have used C1 since 10 years now.
It is something that is simply WRONG with C1, NOT wrong with YOU! PERIOD.

It is ignored as their Achilles heel.  If you search my posts I have explained, as others have on why C1 doesn't change this due to their enrollment program of educating and digital tech  "industry" they chose to create and want to fuel and keep exclusive.

Until they change it, even the new users that get into C1 will soon see how limiting and frustrating it is and look for an exit.

The only solution is for C1 to make a alternate version WITHOUT Sessions..IF they ditch the market they keep fueling.

Until PhaseOne Capture One addresses this, there will be MANY Morgan's, Phil's and all the others that will switch and avoid using C1 as much as possible. Need I say, these are usually a small group when compared to those that simply ditch C1 and use an alternate program.

If you are a long time LL active member, you will see that even the FOUNDER of this site doesn't support such a working approach and finds it confusing, and I think uses LightRoom(? I don't want to misinform, but that's what I thought a few years back from the posts). (In reality people looking for quality files will use multiple tools if they have to).

I will take every opportunity to stress this issue. I do this as C1 is a wonderful raw processor. I think for some of my work, I can get the best results. But I avoid it like a West Nile Virus!!
When I shoot with a Phase One back, I have NO choice, so that is why I can not simply move on! My apologies to Doug, David and others that have to keep hearing this, and as much as they try and explain, and try to show the positives...It never resolves the actual use and the limitations this approach forces...and they too know this.

I say this, so you know that it ISN'T YOU!


And I haven't tried this last months release of .2 update to v7...but the folder browser freezes/crashes on me.  I hope that is ironed out.  This has kept me from changing the folder I'm "supposed" to be working in. With v7 intro of catalog, it at first looks like it works cleaner, but you can't switch out(unless that is changed) .. I have to open back to a Session to go to folder. Its really a mess for anyone who manages their own work folders.....Let alone the folders it forces to make and use.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 20, 2013, 12:37:50 pm
Morgan....You are not alone....You are in the MAJORITY!!
I have used C1 since 10 years now.
It is something that is simply WRONG with C1, NOT wrong with YOU! PERIOD.

It is ignored as their Achilles heel.  If you search my posts I have explained, as others have on why C1 doesn't change this due to their enrollment program of educating and digital tech  "industry" they chose to create and want to fuel and keep exclusive.

This is simply not correct. But we've had this argument many times in the past and I know I won't change your mind.

The way C1 does organization is different than other software. It's much better for some users/uses and irritating for some users/uses. In my experience (namely doing C1 workshops, seminars, webinars, and phone calls for several hundred photographers/techs/assistants/retouching-departments over five years), it's loved by maybe 40%, accepted by 40%, and berated by 20%. The 20% sure are vocal though (and have valid points for their personal preferences and needs).

Promoting and arguing for a change or additional options that would suit your personal needs/wants better, and seeking out others with the same opinion to have greater sway is smart, and good for everyone. But to say that C1 "ignores" this because it's not done the way you personally (and some small group of users here and on the P1 forum) would prefer, and making the issue so vitriolic (at least that's how it reads in the written word) is... well, silly and counter productive.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 20, 2013, 01:18:40 pm
Quote
But to say that C1 "ignores" this because it's not done the way you personally (and some small group of users here and on the P1 forum) would prefer, and making the issue so vitriolic (at least that's how it reads in the written word) is... well, silly and counter productive.

Yes, we have had this open dialogue/discussion often (I don't think it is an argument with 60%, (specially from perspective with much of your time training users  ;-)

I admit I am a bit bitter about it. (It costs me and my crew money from capture to final process). It puts a kink in workflow.

Also... I do deal with it Doug, and I fall into the 40% that does. It doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my opinion if I'm dealing with it.....Specially when there are others in the 40% that deal with it and another 20% that have switched or do what ever...

So it isn't simply a personal gain, nor a small group.   I don't want to be counter productive...silly, sure, why not. It isn't the end of the world.  But the point is, that there is at least 60% that sway this way..... Correct me if I'm wrong, but C1 HAS ignored this. How have they addressed it?


On another note....
For anyone that is looking to use C1 or needs any training in it, I can personally say from my experience that Doug Peterson is an amazing person/instructor(thats hardly the limits of his abilities and work of course). He can custom tailor and advise you for your shooting or studio needs.
He has resolved issues and has responded to calls of help with no hesitation, taking his personal time to get you up and running. So if you have to use C1 or a part of the 20% that love it..... 

Big FYI, I too Love C1 for its processing abilities,  as I have stressed in most of my critical comments. Its a love hate relationship I continue to deal with since C1 3.7's folder browsing changed.

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 20, 2013, 02:56:19 pm
But I have a way of keeping my shoots organised and in one place.. a folder (aka directory)

desktop->images->2013_03_20_myclient

Containing
RawCard1-n
TiffSelect1-n
Web_500px
 etc.

Been doing this for a decade.

So the video doesn't explain what a session is or what it does or why as it appears to solve a problem I don't have - keeping everything together?

I guess a session is a file(+bits) that mean the edit decisions don't get separated from the images and those decisions are (legitimately) considered to be an 'element' of the shoot?

If that is the case do I need a new session for every folder I work on or what etc etc?

I need everything to be in the folder "2013_03_20_myclient" as that folder can get moved all over the place - different machines and then offline to backup HDs

==

Believe me Im a massive fan of C1 and the images rendered and the GUI, just this upgrade threw me a little and now im feeling a little lost.

ANd thanks for taking the time to answer BTW..




Happy to help!

You can pretty much setup the Session structure as you want.  Once you have your session setup, you could make any number of folders within the Session folder, drag them to "Session Favorites", make them the Capture folder or Selects folder by right clicking on them and choosing the appropriate options.

Images can be drag and dropped into your chosen selects folder or there are short cut keys for the job.

When you export you can make a recipe which automatically drops the images into folders with the appropriate names (like Web_500px as ou suggest).  Or make multiple recipes with multiple output types all going into automated folders.

I am not sure I fully understand your folder structure...

Is "2013_03_20_myclient" the top level of a folder which contains everything for ONE particular shoot?  Or is it for multiple clients for one day?  If its the first option then you have pretty much described a Session!

A Session can work for you, you just need to know how to pull the strings.

How about sitting down with your Phase One Partner for half an hour for some advice?  Or see how other users use Sessions in our own forum?

I am glad you are a fan of the GUI and the rendering.  Thanks!

David
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: hubell on March 20, 2013, 06:00:56 pm
Happy to help!

You can pretty much setup the Session structure as you want.  Once you have your session setup, you could make any number of folders within the Session folder, drag them to "Session Favorites", make them the Capture folder or Selects folder by right clicking on them and choosing the appropriate options.

Images can be drag and dropped into your chosen selects folder or there are short cut keys for the job.

When you export you can make a recipe which automatically drops the images into folders with the appropriate names (like Web_500px as ou suggest).  Or make multiple recipes with multiple output types all going into automated folders.

I am not sure I fully understand your folder structure...

Is "2013_03_20_myclient" the top level of a folder which contains everything for ONE particular shoot?  Or is it for multiple clients for one day?  If its the first option then you have pretty much described a Session!

A Session can work for you, you just need to know how to pull the strings.

How about sitting down with your Phase One Partner for half an hour for some advice?  Or see how other users use Sessions in our own forum?

I am glad you are a fan of the GUI and the rendering.  Thanks!

David


David, I have also voiced similar complaints to you about Sessions. What you describe as a workflow here may "work", but it is obviously a workaround, a kludge, that allows you to make nice with the Sessions-based architecture of the program so you can go and try to produce work. It is completely non-intuitive. The best software is software that allows you to work intuitively, and the Sessions concept is anything but intuitive. I don't expect you to admit it in a public forum as you work for Phase now, but Phocus was, in my experience, a far more user friendly program than Capture One. Not better in terms of results, but better in terms of ease of use.
You make a great processing engine with some excellent tools. Why make it so difficult for most of us to use them? There are millions of potential users of DSLRs out there who are shooting raws that might love the results that they would get with Capture One 7. Do they need Sessions? I cannot imagine that it is anything other than a huge PIA for them. They may also not be interested in using the Phase One catalog alternative (which by many accounts is not ready for prime time). They may already have a catalog in Lightroom. 
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: jeanvalentin on March 20, 2013, 06:42:48 pm
.... But to say that C1 "ignores" this because it's not done the way you personally (and some small group of users here and on the P1 forum) would prefer, and making the issue so vitriolic (at least that's how it reads in the written word) is... well, silly and counter productive.


Doug,

You can call it silly, but there is one fact that you can't change: C1 is NOT intuitive (like most software out there). All we ask is to make it intuitive. That's based on common software UI and workflows. It's not what a "small group" wants. It's what's expected from using countless other software programs.

And 40% accepted it, it's a nice way of saying that they deal with the way it works because they like the output, not because it makes sense the way it works. And probably part of the other 40% that love it is because they hire people to do it for them :)
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 20, 2013, 07:04:36 pm
A little perspective

I remember trialing LR, Aperture and C1 some years ago when I discovered raw - kodak proback, SLRn or maybe D100

I remember LR and Aperture 'eating' my files - as does itunes, Iphoto and also FCPx (im now doing video)

The USP at that time (2003??) to me of C1 was that it did not 'eat' my files,

And really with 'sessions' it does not 'eat' them either.

Now im up and running im having exactly the same experience as I did with 5 or 6 or whatever I was using.

-----

Looking to the future (or my future at least) I can see that there is possibly a 'sea change' in workflow coming my/our way that may 'force' me to move  forward in workflow.

Early RAW was basically WB and Exposure comp - if this was lost when the file was revisited in the future doing it again was not a problem

I can see (and have been considering this over the day) that the 'EDL' 'Edit Decisions' made in modern raw processors can be significant work and one would not want to lose that data - so correct management of same comes to the fore.

Im also studying video post a little where a colourist may work on footage at a seperate location and then just send the meta data he has created back to the client to affix to their copy of the footage

I see a similar thing with stills in the future - I have one client we shoot in the studio and she leaves with an HD of all images after waiting for me to do basic post - now it would be interesting for her leave instantly with a copy of the raws and for me to e-mail her the colour settings later in the day

Again web speeds are opening to work on images hosted in the cloud or office server by a remote colourist (probably me) - again in such a situation one can see that a more solid approach to handling the images/data comes to the fore.

Interesting times.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 21, 2013, 08:47:56 am
David, I have also voiced similar complaints to you about Sessions. What you describe as a workflow here may "work", but it is obviously a workaround, a kludge, that allows you to make nice with the Sessions-based architecture of the program so you can go and try to produce work. It is completely non-intuitive. The best software is software that allows you to work intuitively, and the Sessions concept is anything but intuitive. I don't expect you to admit it in a public forum as you work for Phase now, but Phocus was, in my experience, a far more user friendly program than Capture One. Not better in terms of results, but better in terms of ease of use.
You make a great processing engine with some excellent tools. Why make it so difficult for most of us to use them? There are millions of potential users of DSLRs out there who are shooting raws that might love the results that they would get with Capture One 7. Do they need Sessions? I cannot imagine that it is anything other than a huge PIA for them. They may also not be interested in using the Phase One catalog alternative (which by many accounts is not ready for prime time). They may already have a catalog in Lightroom. 


Its not a work around or a kludge at all and used successfully by many of our customers.    I agree Sessions was born out of the studio so may be more applicable to tethered shooting, hence introducing Catalogs for our customers who don't always work in the studio and don't want job - to - job image management but a complete overview of their Photographic work.

I think we have a great Catalog solution.  There are more options that Lightroom or Aperture for example (Shared Catalogs, working with multiple catalogs, storing images inside the Catalog (like Aperture) or referenced images (like Lightroom).

Yes, it is very likely a potential customer may already have a Lightroom catalog, but you can simply point Capture One to your existing system folder structure and import.  You could even bring over meta data and ratings with the help of .xmp files.  Settings of course would not be possible.

I will also say that we can improve on our Catalog implementation and will continue to do so.

D

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 21, 2013, 08:53:14 am

Doug,

You can call it silly, but there is one fact that you can't change: C1 is NOT intuitive (like most software out there). All we ask is to make it intuitive. That's based on common software UI and workflows. It's not what a "small group" wants. It's what's expected from using countless other software programs.

And 40% accepted it, it's a nice way of saying that they deal with the way it works because they like the output, not because it makes sense the way it works. And probably part of the other 40% that love it is because they hire people to do it for them :)

It's enjoyable to use, intuitive and powerful, and if you aren't currently bought-in to any particular system, it gives a very creamy, refined experience.

Nikonians Review.

I think as Doug says above you can't speak for all users.  As I have also stated in the past, we are working hard to make Capture One faster, easier, more efficient every day.

I would also argue that 'most' software is intuitive.  I can think of plenty of applications that have caused me frustration!
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Morgan_Moore on March 21, 2013, 06:58:06 pm
Doubtless Catalogue is Excellent

But hitting the page http://www.phaseone.com/en/Imaging-Software/Capture-One-Pro-7/Features.aspx - organisation

I find so many words extremely vague that I don't really want to engage with it

I don't know if there is something Danish going on but really the words don't make a lot of sense to me

I wrote me own imaging library and the linguistics is critical

Shoot - Job - Assignment ? for example (I selected job - less letters)

Mix that linguistic confusion and some elementary tests (moving folders around) and it all becomes fairly un appealing (as are LR and Ap)

As for intuitive use - yes - much software is highly intuitive - from basic things like using a cash-machine to most apps they are indeed intuitive

I see any software or hardware with a manual (that is ever used) as basically poorly designed

S

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: john beardsworth on March 21, 2013, 08:29:31 pm
Makes me wonder if P1 should have just canned the sessions concept in v7 - or at least amalgamated it in the catalogue - rather than trying to be nice to existing users. Going forward, how viable is it to maintain two alternative organisation metaphors in one app. Better to take the heat?
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 21, 2013, 10:19:50 pm
That's why when C1v7 came out, I was beside myself. I thought, wow, these guys are either way out of touch, or they care zero about the independent studios, and photographers and only care about shooters that hire a digital tech.
The other portion of brainwashed folks(besides the niche shooter that for some reason do love the way C1 works. Let me not forget you few) that got their certification in C1 software and now wear it like some badge as a shield to protect it, and feel exclusive.

It's what Intuit Quickbooks was at one point geared to do(when going up with PeachTree and MS Money, etc), but years back they made the choice to open the flood gates(Not rely on training revenue or tech, and make it easy to use). So now there is a huge portion of businesses running on QB.  Not sure it that is a great example...but I see it fitting. Even MS is slowly after all these years seeing an alternate business model. Look at the surge of anything that is user friendly...Its often the unknown reason for a products success. That's my perspective. Maybe I'm too idealistic in a greed based world dominance of puppeteers?
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 22, 2013, 03:48:55 am
Makes me wonder if P1 should have just canned the sessions concept in v7 - or at least amalgamated it in the catalogue - rather than trying to be nice to existing users. Going forward, how viable is it to maintain two alternative organisation metaphors in one app. Better to take the heat?

Hi John,

Because contrary to what Phil would like you to believe Sessions are a very popular workflow for some of our customers.  Read Doug's post earlier for a fair representation.

Therefore it stays.

D
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 22, 2013, 03:51:38 am
That's why when C1v7 came out, I was beside myself. I thought, wow, these guys are either way out of touch, or they care zero about the independent studios, and photographers and only care about shooters that hire a digital tech.
The other portion of brainwashed folks(besides the niche shooter that for some reason do love the way C1 works. Let me not forget you few) that got their certification in C1 software and now wear it like some badge as a shield to protect it, and feel exclusive.


Brainwashed?  Seriously?

I would hope that most of us would not choose to belittle a young person who has decided to spend their own money and further their education in their chosen industry.

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: john beardsworth on March 22, 2013, 04:26:34 am
Because contrary to what Phil would like you to believe Sessions are a very popular workflow for some of our customers.  Read Doug's post earlier for a fair representation.
Therefore it stays.
Sometimes you've got to take a leap of faith and give people something that may be good for them. You can always sugar that pill by, for example, making sessions into catalogue collections, and you'd obviously have to do other things to bring the workflows together. Perhaps a bit much for one cycle, but the alternative catalogue/sessions tracks seem unnecessarily confusing and costly in terms of engineering and (more importantly) learning.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 22, 2013, 04:36:27 am
Sometimes you've got to take a leap of faith and give people something that may be good for them. You can always sugar that pill by, for example, making sessions into catalogue collections, and you'd obviously have to do other things to bring the workflows together. Perhaps a bit much for one cycle, but the alternative catalogue/sessions tracks seem unnecessarily confusing and costly in terms of engineering and (more importantly) learning.

Maybe we are just too nice.  ;)

You can in one click bring a Session into a catalog (useful for archiving).

Also, there is nothing to prevent you from shooting tethered directly into a Catalog if you wish.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: john beardsworth on March 22, 2013, 05:38:32 am
Time will tell....
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 22, 2013, 11:55:56 am
You can say it can shoot into a catalog, or bring a Session into a Catalog......

 The more you have to explain it David, the more obvious is the flawed approach. 

People have their own eyes ears and brain to process, I don't have to try and make anyone believe anything.  C1, or even Raw processing is not for trigger happy cowboys. It's for a methodical approach, which makes C1 an oximoron at that.

And yes, please do read what Doug posted, even with a forgivable bias there is 20% that really like it. The 60% who just deal with it or they simply look for alternate solutions.

This goes along my previous post(that I guess I left my first point somewhat incomplete).

David, you are too nice, to not help secure your future. There will at some point be an alternate, and when the other 20-40% question themselves..."Why is this software locking down the way I want to take pictures and make folders",... they too will see the light and jump ship.
With the economic down turn, the digiitech business model has shrunk and continues to shrink.   You have been very helpful with users, and this forum. I thank you for your contribution as your job, or personal input. And I don't say thiese things because I have to meet you guys face to face or that I'm in this relation for such a long time, and I feel I have to say anything nice. It is true and you are professional and doing a very good job with specific help people need. Unfortunately this is overshadowed by the foundational issues C1 has, and because you are surrounded by the enrolled culture, you don't see the outside paradoxical reality.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 22, 2013, 12:24:52 pm
You can say it can shoot into a catalog, or bring a Session into a Catalog......

 The more you have to explain it David, the more obvious is the flawed approach. 

People have their own eyes ears and brain to process, I don't have to try and make anyone believe anything.  C1, or even Raw processing is not for trigger happy cowboys. It's for a methodical approach, which makes C1 an oximoron at that.

And yes, please do read what Doug posted, even with a forgivable bias there is 20% that really like it. The 60% who just deal with it or they simply look for alternate solutions.

This goes along my previous post(that I guess I left my first point somewhat incomplete).

David, you are too nice, to not help secure your future. There will at some point be an alternate, and when the other 20-40% question themselves..."Why is this software locking down the way I want to take pictures and make folders",... they too will see the light and jump ship.
With the economic down turn, the digiitech business model has shrunk and continues to shrink.   You have been very helpful with users, and this forum. I thank you for your contribution as your job, or personal input. And I don't say thiese things because I have to meet you guys face to face or that I'm in this relation for such a long time, and I feel I have to say anything nice. It is true and you are professional and doing a very good job with specific help people need. Unfortunately this is overshadowed by the foundational issues C1 has, and because you are surrounded by the enrolled culture, you don't see the outside paradoxical reality.

Then I guess we agree to disagree.

Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: hubell on March 22, 2013, 12:28:30 pm
I think nothing has so perfectly captured the impenetrability of the C1 7 Sessions architecture as the following post from another forum from a very experienced photographer who has owned a number of Phase backs and who was trying to get her head around Sessions so she can just get her images processed:

"Ok, [Mr. X, an individual who is a Capture 1 "expert" trying to explain how to set up a folder structure to accommodate Sessions], let me understand something...say I have the top folder: Colorado RAW. Inside that is the session folder that contains the capture folder, output folder, trash folder, etc etc. Now should the actual colorado raw files be in the primary top level "Colorado RAW" folder OR....should the raw images actually be inside the Capture folder that is inside the session folder that is inside the primary "colorado RAW" folder?? Hope I'm not being too confusing. thanks!"

Seriously. Who would design a piece of software like that if you were starting from scratch?
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 22, 2013, 01:55:09 pm
Ive been dazed for years. To this day I have not come across the 20% in the 10+years with PhaseOne backs alone, well after v3.7 was revamped.... saying that C1 is the software to use.... UNLESS you are on the job with a digital tech and everyone is there to make the client happy. And yes, it makes the best processing for some images than other processors,(I don't just give you that, you deserve it)  but all the fuzz during the shoot with client is just icing to make what we do look smooth with no bumps int the process.

It is unfortunate that C1 IS the ONLY software you can capture with when using a PhaseOne back. Why is that when brands like Canon or Nikon, or most other brands have extended this to other apps willing to offer it?

Even the little help of other apps allowing the shoot would help...... I would shoot with ANOTHER app, I could just browse to MY folders and forcefully process my base file in C1 and "Get Out of Dodge" to what ever else I will do with the file in processing and catalog/archiving.

I was doing this with C13.7 for some time. then things got slow new drivers, and new processing engine, it would force yet another application by going from C13.7 to C17 to process, then to another ,....this is the daisy chain C1's approach puts forward.
Title: Re: C1.7 file management - I want folder browsing back..
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 22, 2013, 08:05:17 pm
Up until C1v3.710 they had it perfect.

I'm sure they would have to change a number of things from v3.7x to what it was able to do up until v6(before catalog/cripple sessions).
But none that would have to change the way we could select a folder and files simply get written in them. Simple as that.

It was fast, light, accurate, simple to browser as you would in Folders, or Win Explorer......and now we have metadata, layers, brush, grads, lens corrections. These are all rather welcome, but at the price of fundamental approach to OS file ssytems??? Are you kidding me?! Program Architect is either running things at C1, or perhaps a family link of loyalty that is unshakable, and that person is on the high up position. Otherwise this entire approach would have collapsed ages ago.

Too bad, do we have to wait for the industry to shrink to a point they see that they shouldn't be bottling it? While the entry and mid level is growing and booming, they are missing the boat on that front. I doubt retailers and workshops are preaching C1!