Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: pjtn on March 16, 2013, 02:50:35 am

Title: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 16, 2013, 02:50:35 am
I'm just wondering what the Mamiya RZ67 cameras are like when used with a digital back? I'm currently looking at one to use with either a Phase One P25 or Mamiya DM28 back for landscape photography.

I understand they are very heavy and quite large, I'm pretty sure I could deal with that though. I have also heard the lenses are very good. Which is great because they're also very cheap.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: RomainVaucher on March 16, 2013, 05:50:50 am
I use a RZ67 Pro II. And I used it with several backs (from H5 to P25) but not for landscape work, mostly fashion.

I love it. It is really heavy but once you get used to it and to the manual focus on the fly, it is a great camera. Plus it is pretty cheap to get lenses etc. (You can fit some RB lenses on it if you need)

The only problem : Since I do not have the Pro II D there are some cables that get in the way.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: amsp on March 16, 2013, 07:35:56 am
I bought an rz67 pro IID a couple of weeks ago and I'm using it with my P25. It's pretty much like you said, big, heavy, great lenses, and a lovely big waist level finder. Crop factor is of course slightly annoying and means you won't be able to shoot really wide, as the widest lens is a 50mm. But for me it's not huge problem as there's always film or I can use my 645 if I need to. All in all it's a great camera with some limitations, I'm definitely happy with it.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 16, 2013, 10:23:51 am
Do you use it for landscape amsp? I'm a little worried about the weight, that would be my main issue. I guess it's not so bad as lugging around a large format film camera at least.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 16, 2013, 10:43:28 am
Does anyone know how the RZ lenses compare with those on the AFD system? I've looked around and the AFD lenses are usually around $700. I'd be looking for something like a 50mm, 80mm and 150mm.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: TMARK on March 16, 2013, 10:54:32 am
Does anyone know how the RZ lenses compare with those on the AFD system? I've looked around and the AFD lenses are usually around $700. I'd be looking for something like a 50mm, 80mm and 150mm.

RZ lenses are amazing. No dogs in the pack. For landscape get the 50 ULD version as it has a floating element.

As to weight, it's lighter than an Arca F Field 4x5. It gets heavy with the winder and a prism.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: amsp on March 16, 2013, 12:18:51 pm
Do you use it for landscape amsp? I'm a little worried about the weight, that would be my main issue. I guess it's not so bad as lugging around a large format film camera at least.

I don't use it for landscape, but I think if you can work around the issue of wide angle lenses (stitch maybe?) then I don't think the weight should be a problem. I'd actually say the weight is more an issue if you do a lot of handheld type of photography. Use a good backpack and you should be fine, like TMARK said it's no worse than a large format camera. As for 645 lenses they are no slouch either, especially the ones you mentioned, 55, 80, 150 are all good. I haven't used the rz67 enough to compare the two, but I'd expect the rz lenses to be somewhat better because of the bellows design. I definitely love the rendering so far.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: werner from aurora on March 16, 2013, 05:38:34 pm
   I can't give you any advice regarding the digital backs, but I use my RZ almost exclusively for portraits and landscapes. It can get a little heavy if you tend to carry every RZ lens you own with you.( in my case I am embarrassed to tell you how many). But there is a rhythm to using this camera that (for me) no full frame digital comes close to. I have gotten rid of a lot of Medium format cameras, but just can't part with this one. One day I know I will pick up a digital back for it.       Even if an older digital back barely matches some of the full frame DSLRs coming out, I know I would still get more keepers with the RZ. It just engages me in a way my full frame does not, and cannot. But that's just me. I don't make a living from my photography so I can afford to be a little eccentric. ( or stupid, depending on who you ask).
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 16, 2013, 05:53:28 pm
The RZ is a great camera. The waist level finder has quite good magnification for focusing, but it would be much better if Mamiya made a waist level finder specifically for the size of digital backs.

However one limitation you would have is wide angles. While the RZ has nice wide angles they are designed for 6x7 and with the crop of even a full frame MF digital sensor
You would not get much angle of view with the RZ lenses.
However the RZ lenses are very good even with film it's a very nice camera.
Here is a shot with film:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8492/8407847602_0037618922.jpg)

and here is a crop:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8351/8407847612_0c1a1851cd_c.jpg)

Black and white film could be a good compliment to a p25 RZ combo for when you want a wider angle, plus the option of shooting infrared film
is nice.


It would also be really nice if mamiya could make a stitch back for the RZ allowing you to shift the back making two captures that cover the full 6x7. Would be very nice for landscape and with a "modest" P25 you would get a 40MP capture.

You can get stitch backs for the Fuji gx680, but they are heavy cameras and the widest lens is 50mm.
However you can get very large files as it can do more than a two frame rectalinear stitch.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 16, 2013, 06:13:20 pm
  Even if an older digital back barely matches some of the full frame DSLRs coming out, I know I would still get more keepers with the RZ. It just engages me in a way my full frame does not, and cannot. But that's just me. I don't make a living from my photography so I can afford to be a little eccentric. ( or stupid, depending on who you ask).

It's that waist level view finder.... when you look down you frontal lobes in the brain get more blood... just kidding.
On second thoughts there might be something about that.
I shoot some 8x10 and to see the image straight on the ground glass I have to look at it upside down... even more blood to the brain. ;)
 
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 12:11:35 am
I have to admit personally I don't really like the modern DSLR's. Too automated and technology driven.

I'm also not convinced that the modern DSLR cameras have caught up to digital backs yet either. Looking at sample images from the latest 24mp DSLR cameras I find they lack detail and sharpness compared to a P25.

That photo is stunning FredBGG. The crop is also amazing, incredible detail. I wouldn't mind shooting film but here in country South Australia it's a long way to go for development. Scanning is also a huge problem.

Why are the RZ cameras so cheap when they seem to have such excellent optics?
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 17, 2013, 04:33:05 am

That photo is stunning FredBGG. The crop is also amazing, incredible detail. I wouldn't mind shooting film but here in country South Australia it's a long way to go for development. Scanning is also a huge problem.

Why are the RZ cameras so cheap when they seem to have such excellent optics?

Thanks for the compliment!
While processing and scanning is an issue with film it's a nice option to have. Also the photo I posted I processed the negatives myself and recently made the scan
with the Epson v750.

Personally I have found that I prefer a combination of top of the line 35mm DSLR  (d800 for me) for digital and them larger film formats for a different look.
I still shoot 6x8cm film, 8x10 inch film and for certain things straight to paper 8x10 inch.

However I think that the P25+ on an RZ with the film option of 6x7 with the excellent and inexpensive used RZ lenses is a great tool.
The Phase One P series backs are built like little tanks and the RZ is a very dependable and simple camera. However do keep in mind that you will get much better results when shooting mirror up. This is because the RZ has both a big mirror and quite a chunky lens driving mechanism that shuts down the iris etc.
However Mamiya made a very nice double cable release that makes mirror up shooting quite nice to do. However hand held it's a bit of an issue as there isn't a dedicated mirror up button.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 07:52:05 am
Ah yes, the mirror lock-up. That is one thing I keep forgetting to find out.

I'm amazed at the quality you got from the Epson V750. I had no idea it was so capable. How large do you feel a file like that would print?

Right know I'm basically just tossing up between getting an RZ or AFD. There are two digital backs I'm looking at between a Phase One P25 and Mamiya DM28.

Basically it seems features of the two systems are:

RZ
- Very heavy and large but well made
- Mechanical design should be reliable and needs very little battery power
- Cheap bodies and lenses
- Very good optical quality

AFD
- Smaller and lighter
- Auto focus
- Relies on battery power
- More modern automated features
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: neilwatson on March 17, 2013, 08:05:34 am
Yes, it would be really good if Mamiya would make a sliding back for the RZ.
Actually it would be very easy for them.  The current adapter rotates and allows horizontal and vertical images. 
If they just offset the hole and put it on one side and made it veritical.  You could take a shot then rotate 180 degrees to get the other half of the 6x7 image
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 08:15:37 am
Actually, I'm assuming that either the P25 or Mamiya DM28 would make a good 24x32" print?
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: TMARK on March 17, 2013, 09:30:24 am
Actually, I'm assuming that either the P25 or Mamiya DM28 would make a good 24x32" print?

Yes they would. One thing to keep in mind is that the Phase backs need a wake up signal, so you need a wake up cable. The Leaf backs don't need the cable.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 09:39:42 am
Ah ok, I think the combo I'm looking at already has the wake up cable. The photos I've seen have a cable which runs from the front of the camera to the DB.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: yaya on March 17, 2013, 10:16:15 am
If you opt for the DM28 and a non-D body you need to order the Leaf adapter which A) rotates, B) comes with a lens-to-back synce cable and a marked focusing screen for your back

As TMARK mentioned you only need a sync cable from the lens to the back

Cheers

Yair
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: amsp on March 17, 2013, 10:19:10 am
There's no wake-up required with a P25 on an rz67, at least not with the IID.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 10:42:56 am
I need to check but I think this is the Pro ii non D model.

I just did a little hunting for specs and I'm a little less worried about the weight now. With waist level finder, film back and 110mm lens it is only 2.5kg. My old Hasselblad H1 and P30+ with a lens would have weighed that. I never had an issue with that cameras weight either.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: george2787 on March 17, 2013, 10:43:20 am
If you opt for the DM28 and a non-D body you need to order the Leaf adapter which A) rotates, B) comes with a lens-to-back synce cable and a marked focusing screen for your back

As TMARK mentioned you only need a sync cable from the lens to the back

Cheers

Yair

Yaya, one quick question... With an rz pro IID and an aptus ( not sure if any aptus or just the II version) you won't need any cable. I suppose you will need an adapter.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: amsp on March 17, 2013, 12:23:21 pm
No matter if you decide on the AFD or the rz67 the nice thing is you can always complement it with the other later on. I love being able to move my P25 between such different camera systems.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 17, 2013, 01:05:26 pm
Ah yes, the mirror lock-up. That is one thing I keep forgetting to find out.

I'm amazed at the quality you got from the Epson V750. I had no idea it was so capable. How large do you feel a file like that would print?

Right know I'm basically just tossing up between getting an RZ or AFD. There are two digital backs I'm looking at between a Phase One P25 and Mamiya DM28.

Basically it seems features of the two systems are:

RZ
- Very heavy and large but well made
- Mechanical design should be reliable and needs very little battery power
- Cheap bodies and lenses
- Very good optical quality

AFD
- Smaller and lighter
- Auto focus
- Relies on battery power
- More modern automated features

Regarding backs I would suggest going with the larger sensor size of the P25 that is 48x36.
The DM28 is a 44x33 sensor. You will get better wide angle coverage with the p25.
More coverage is important considering that you are already cropping a 6x7 system.

Regarding the reliability of the RZ, even the first version is very good. The two weak points are:

Lens shutter failure. While quite rare it can be a real problem with film because if the electronics fail the
shutter defaults to a fast mechanical shutter speed. 1/400th if I recall correctly. Also it sounds just the same as a 60th going off.
Anyway less of a problem with digital because you would know right away.
Seeing as I shoot film in 6x7 or 6x8 I decided to move to the Fuji gx680 as it has a sensor that measures light reflected off the film to confirm shutter functionality
on all exposures. It sounds an alarm if exposure is not within 1 stop. A nice feature when shooting film.
However I have never has a Fuji gx680 shutter fail. I had two shutter failures on the RZ. One was a used lens, and the other was bough new, but only failed after
about 4 years of use... and that was by me and my two assistants.

Second weak point is transport mechanism wear, but this again is more of an issue with film.
The shutter/mirror cocking mechanism and film advance is all done with the same lever and over time it wears out.
I would not say this is much of an issue buying new, but if you are buying used take a good look at the transport/cocking lever play.

One other thing I never likes was the really crappy motor drive. I always affectionately called it the coffee grinder.
It also makes the camera harder to hand hold.

All that said the RZ is a fine camera and my experience with it was good. I can't say the same for the Phase One AF and Phase One DF.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: george2787 on March 17, 2013, 01:12:45 pm
Yaya, one quick question... With an rz pro IID and an aptus ( not sure if any aptus or just the II version) you won't need any cable. I suppose you will need an adapter.

Thanks :)

While I'm at it... Is there any combination of rz (non d version) and back that does not require sync or wake up cable?
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 17, 2013, 01:38:34 pm
I'm amazed at the quality you got from the Epson V750. I had no idea it was so capable. How large do you feel a file like that would print?

Well it's not all the V750. The large 6x7 negative is a great starting point. 645 will not be the same.

Print size looks very nice even very large. However it's a different type of detail and look to digital.
One really nice thing about film with very large enlargements is that the way the detail falls off into the grain texture
is nice and smooth. Digital on the other hand gets funky artifacts right on the drop off of detail.

Here is a comparison

(http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/miroscope-700.jpg)

Bigger here:
http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/miroscope-700.jpg (http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/miroscope-700.jpg)

Unfortunately the comparison does not include a very fine grained film, but the point I want to make is that
if you like the feel of grain printing even very big looks nice. An IQ180 will get you way more detail than 6x7 film
Also part of the artifact problem is due to there being no anti alias filter.

Going back to the v750 you can get great results. Quailty is excellent, however it is not a heavy duty machine and sometimes the glass flatbed gets a bit fogged up and needs to be opened to clean it. You can get even better quality making a wetscan with the v750 as well as dual exposure.
The Silverfast software it comes with can get great results, but it's quite complicated and does not ship with particularly good film negative profiles.
I find I sometimes have to do a fair bit of fiddling around.

Anyway here is another example, but this time with a very fine grained film.. Panatomic-X (unfortunately no longer available):

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5250/5356464560_f46a54d63a_b.jpg)

and here is a crop:

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5142/5738647019_08d35d415e_z.jpg)


Anyway if you also want a DB solution and also want to dabble in film I think that the RZ is a good choice to have both with the same camera.

If size is not an issue I would recommend the Fuji gx680, but you also need a control box to control camera and back.
Prices are really good on the version I and it's also my prefered model. You also get tilt and shift on all lenses. 50mm to 500mm.
You can also use the shift to do stitching. Very effective for landscape.

I ca send you some documentation of the Fuji gx680 is you want, just PM me your email.

Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 17, 2013, 07:31:45 pm
Just a quick note that the above linked comparison was (from the look of it) almost surely done in capture one v6 or ACR/LR. Capture One v7 handles micro detail much better; more correct details, less artifacts. This puts an iq180 (or any phase/leaf) much closer in any such test.

It should also be pointed out that the premise/methodology of that tea was pretty sound but was geared towards answering a question like "in a perfect world how much detail can be had from x, y, and z formats." As always I recommend any testing be done by the person who wants answers, and be done in as close to real-world conditions (for that persons shooting style/situations) as possible. Though tests like this are always academically interesting.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: FredBGG on March 17, 2013, 09:13:07 pm
Just a quick note that the above linked comparison was (from the look of it) almost surely done in capture one v6 or ACR/LR. Capture One v7 handles micro detail much better; more correct details, less artifacts. This puts an iq180 (or any phase/leaf) much closer in any such test.

It should also be pointed out that the premise/methodology of that tea was pretty sound but was geared towards answering a question like "in a perfect world how much detail can be had from x, y, and z formats." As always I recommend any testing be done by the person who wants answers, and be done in as close to real-world conditions (for that persons shooting style/situations) as possible. Though tests like this are always academically interesting.

Doug... my point was not to say that film is better then the IQ180. Film will out preform the IQ180, but we would be talking about 8x10 film, a huge heavy camera and it would have to be very good processing and scanning. It's pretty clear that an IQ180 or IQ160 will produce better results form a purely technical point of view than film that can be used in a manner that is even remotely as practical.

The point I was making is that when making big enlargements film reveals it's limitations, but they are "pretty".
With digital while it may take more to reveal the artifacting when it shows up it looks far less appealing.
And that is the same with all digital, the only difference is that with a very high res sensor it's takes more for it to show up.
In a certain sense the Sigma chips have an edge on all the others.

Also how often do you see artist trying to mimic the digital artifacts and how often to you see digital photographers trying to recreate distressed film.

While some like the new "engine" in Capture One 7 IMO it's too punchy and has a somewhat manipulated look to it.
Phase One did well to keep the previous rendering engine as an option in version 7.

Going back on topic the Mamiya RZ with a P25 back and a film back is a nice combination. Inexpensive, can use Capture 1 6 or 7 rendering as well as film.

I think it would be an even better option if Phase One made a stitch back adapter for the RZ.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 09:15:36 pm
I just found out it's actually a P25 Hasselblad mount with the RZ67 system. So essentially I'm comparing two systems within my price bracket.

- P25 on RZ67
- Leaf AFI II 6 / DM28 on Mamiya AFD
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: TMARK on March 17, 2013, 09:31:54 pm
While I'm at it... Is there any combination of rz (non d version) and back that does not require sync or wake up cable?

No. The wake up cable is a pain. It's an extra trigger, essentially.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 10:19:35 pm
I think maybe I have only one option left available to me now. The listing for the DM28 appears to be a scam. I tried Google image search on the product photos and it came up also on ebay.co.uk and had been sold previously.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/perth-cbd/digital-cameras/dm28-leaf-aptus-ii-6-28-0-mp/1015942795#
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 17, 2013, 10:49:46 pm
Does anyone have a P25 file they could send me? Preferably of landscape.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 18, 2013, 09:33:50 am
If you work with a dealer rather than peruse gear listings (which as you just discovered can have major pitfalls - the "easy way" in this case), then you will be able to test the gear in hand (e.g. does the weight/balance/ergos of the RZ work for you), get lots of relevant raw samples and/or shoot your own, and will have someone to help you with any of the questions that can come up when you're going into an entirely new system.

Having read through your brief journey so far I'd strongly suggest you look at an RZ Pro IID which would keep all your options open in the future.

RZ Pro II: V mount, cables, WLF option
RZ Pro IID: M mount, no cables, WLF option
AFD/AFDII/AFDIII/AF/DF/DF+: M mount, no cables, autofocus, no WLF option

So if you go with a Pro II and a V mount you prohibit yourself from buying an AFD body (now or in the future).

If you go with a Pro IID and don't like the RZ body you can simply sell it and buy an AFD. Or even if you do like it you can still add an AFD and switch your back from one to the other (it takes <10 sec to switch from one to the other).

There are other minor advantages/disadvantages to each choice (e.g. the IID has to be "tricked" into going beyond 60 seconds when using a digital back).

I know budget, especially on the first purchase (the big hunk of it), is always an issue. But sometimes in trying to save money (e.g. some modest difference in price between [RZ Pro II + adapter] and [Pro IID + adapter] you back yourself into a corner which will may be more expensive in the long run.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 18, 2013, 09:50:45 am
Doug... my point was not to say that film is better then the IQ180. Film will out preform the IQ180, but we would be talking about 8x10 film, a huge heavy camera and it would have to be very good processing and scanning.

I have to wonder about that.  When I was handling the transition of Hedrich to digital (which involved the purchase of 6 entirely new camera systems) I tested our 4x5 stock against the P45+.  The P45+ easily out resolved Ektachrome 100 (EPN).  If you shot really slow 8x10 black and white and used a fine grain developer, I wonder how that would compare to an IQ180 on a tech camera?  Intriguing.  Almost intriguing enough for me to fire up my drum scanner.  Almost.

Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: torger on March 18, 2013, 10:45:53 am
I have to wonder about that.  When I was handling the transition of Hedrich to digital (which involved the purchase of 6 entirely new camera systems) I tested our 4x5 stock against the P45+.  The P45+ easily out resolved Ektachrome 100 (EPN).  If you shot really slow 8x10 black and white and used a fine grain developer, I wonder how that would compare to an IQ180 on a tech camera?  Intriguing.  Almost intriguing enough for me to fire up my drum scanner.  Almost.

The best test I've seen so far in that regard:
http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/
http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/800px.html

Here 4x5" velvia (now dead!) vs P45+:
http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/topping-housesleft-small/topping-housesleft-small_0006_4x5%20Velvia.jpg
http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/topping-housesleft-small/topping-housesleft-small_0002_P45.jpg

If you want "grain-free" film does not resolve that much, but as film resolves past the grain quite much detail can be had from a 4x5" if you scan it at high ppi. In terms of resolved detail 4x5" is quite similar to IQ180, and definitely higher than P45+. But if you want grain-free, the P45+ could be said to exceed 4x5". And if we go to Portra400 which is still live today the resolution is not as good as Velvia and it is still closer with the P45+:

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/topping-housesleft-small/topping-housesleft-small_0005_4x5%20Portra%20400.jpg

In any case, if you would make an extremely large print which can be viewed on nosing distance I prefer the film grain look out of 4x5" that the blocky aliasing from digital. Film (drum-scanned at ultra-high resolutions) enlarges to more pleasing results than upscaled digital I think.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 18, 2013, 11:03:33 am
Yeah, if you have to enlarge to the point of grain visibility, I'd rather see actual grain than pixels.  For our tests, I shot the P45+ against the film stock that we used for 90% of our work.  I drum scanned the 4x5 chrome with enough res as seemed appropriate (I believe it was 1500dpi).  Then I made prints at 17x22.  There was more detail in the digital capture print.  Far more tonal range (easy enough against chrome) and better color fidelity.  The testing was restricted to our commercial workflow as any other parameters would have been irrelevant.  That print viewing was the death of film for us.

Thanks for the links, those are certainly interesting.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: torger on March 18, 2013, 11:28:14 am
Of what I've read/heard/seen I think the P45/P45+ and similar backs (i e the generation after the 9 um 22 megapixel backs) was indeed the tipping point for many professionals to ditch 4x5" film and go digital. Quality finally as good or even better, and much faster workflow.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 18, 2013, 11:32:59 am
Also, we used Readyload / Quickload.  That stuff and the polaroids generated so much friggin landfill.  I do NOT miss it.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: yaya on March 18, 2013, 11:35:11 am
So if you go with a Pro II and a V mount you prohibit yourself from buying an AFD body (now or in the future).

If he goes with a ProII and an M mount (Leaf) back then there's no problem using the back on an AFD as well...
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: TMARK on March 18, 2013, 11:42:27 am
I don't shoot film for the res.  I replaced MF film with a 1ds when it came out, but then went back to film for editorial work.  Its the look, is all.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Fritzer on March 18, 2013, 01:00:20 pm
I'm using my old RZ 67 II occasionally with the Aptus 75, and it works very well .
The RZ is still my favourite MF camera, I just love the focussing mechanism and no-nonsense controls .
And while it's a bit on the chunky side , it's also very light - until you attach a lens .

As for the lenses, I only have the 50, 110 and 150mm ; they look very sharp and detailed to me, but really require stopping down a couple of stops, else there are severe issues with CA , in my experience .

The mirror slap is another possible issue, as mentioned before, if you need to be shooting without mirror lock-up and available light.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 18, 2013, 01:04:36 pm
I don't shoot film for the res.  I replaced MF film with a 1ds when it came out, but then went back to film for editorial work.  Its the look, is all.

This is the case with many filmmakers as well.  While I don't miss chrome at all, neg film can be really beautiful!

Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: fredjeang2 on March 18, 2013, 01:52:43 pm
Yeah, but beware of FilmConvert abuses  ;)

Or CineGrain. ???
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: amsp on March 18, 2013, 03:03:51 pm
I don't shoot film for the res.  I replaced MF film with a 1ds when it came out, but then went back to film for editorial work.  Its the look, is all.

+1

I've had the exact same evolution. I replaced my Pentax 6x7 with a 1Ds, then got a P25, and now I'm back to shooting as much film as I can. I could care less about resolution, it's all about the look and feel.

Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 18, 2013, 05:12:23 pm
I shoot film for a similar reason. In the photography world digital cameras are everywhere, to be taken seriously as an artist (or just noticed) you have to be different, some people print on canvas or have other ways of making their work stand out. I use film as a way of distancing myself from the crowd of pixel peepers. I get that unique film look that a lot of them are going for and have to work less to maintain it.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 18, 2013, 08:19:59 pm
I'm leaning more towards and AFD setup now. I have found someone in Australia that has a P25+ back for sale too. It's more than I'd like to pay but I guess it will be good for quite some years to come.

Are there any lenses in the Mamiya line to keep away from? Or any lenses that are particularly good?

I'll get a setup along the lines of a 55mm, 80mm and 150mm. I notice there is also a 45mm which is a little more expensive than the 55mm.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: HarperPhotos on March 18, 2013, 08:24:12 pm
Hello,

The 45mm was my favourite.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: neilwatson on March 18, 2013, 08:53:44 pm
I use to use the mamiya 45mm, 55mm and 120 macro mostly. 
I recommend the 120 macro.  Super sharp and good price on the used market.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: pjtn on March 18, 2013, 08:56:19 pm
Actually, something worth asking just for interest sake, how much would it cost for an Alpa setup for the digital back?

I hadn't really considered it because I've always imagined they must be very expensive. However I've never seen a price on one before. They look too nice to be cheap.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 18, 2013, 10:31:30 pm
Actually, something worth asking just for interest sake, how much would it cost for an Alpa setup for the digital back?

I hadn't really considered it because I've always imagined they must be very expensive. However I've never seen a price on one before. They look too nice to be cheap.

"An Alpa setup" or a setup of any other good tech camera is a very broad category.

Pre-owned (e.g. Cambo Wide DS with adapter) might be less than $1500 used (without lens).

At the high end:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76222.msg610051#msg610051

It's a surprisingly large ecosystem of at least a dozen bodies made by at least a half dozen manufacturers. So it's hard to be more specific. Working with a good dealer you can work your way through the variety of options pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Sheldon N on March 18, 2013, 11:52:53 pm
Crap, just buy Simon's kit. Heck of a way to get started properly. :)

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76445
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: HarperPhotos on March 19, 2013, 12:08:11 am
Hi Sheldon,

Thanks for the free plug.

Its a great system and has done me proud over the years and will be a great system for the next owner.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: marcel b on March 19, 2013, 04:36:24 am
If somebody is still looking for a RZ system - I got some stuff for sale:

RZ Pro II Body in great condition
Winder
Sekor M 65 L-A
Sekor Z 90
Sekor Z 180 W-N
Leaf Adapter RZ to H, incl. Cables and Screen for Aptus 22/75
CU Ring 45mm
Handgrip
2 Filmbacks

just send me a message

cheers,
marcel
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: mcrepsej on March 19, 2013, 07:23:48 am
(http://www.iversenfoto.dk/used_gear_for_sale/PhaseOne%20Mamiya%20adapter.png)

For sale: PhaseOne adapter plate to Mamiya RZ/RZ II to DB wiht Hasselblad V mount

Kind regards

Jesper Iversen
Denmark
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: EnriqueSalvadorToso on April 23, 2014, 01:17:53 pm
Hello all!! this is a very interesting thread!!

I have an RZ Pro II with 5 lenses in one hand, and a Phase One P20 digital back in the other. I used to work with that back in a Hassel H1, but the shutter dies, so Im not taking any MF pictures nowdays...kind of depressing, lol.

Is there any way to put the PhaseOne P20 in the RZ Pro II camera?? I know that i need a cable for sincro, and an adapter, but can't find wich one!!

Any answer will be great.

Sorry for my english, and cheers from Argentina!!
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 23, 2014, 04:40:39 pm
Hello all!! this is a very interesting thread!!

I have an RZ Pro II with 5 lenses in one hand, and a Phase One P20 digital back in the other. I used to work with that back in a Hassel H1, but the shutter dies, so Im not taking any MF pictures nowdays...kind of depressing, lol.

Is there any way to put the PhaseOne P20 in the RZ Pro II camera?? I know that i need a cable for sincro, and an adapter, but can't find wich one!!

Any answer will be great.

Sorry for my english, and cheers from Argentina!!


Your English is fine, Enrique.

Not really a way for you to do this, unless you want to shoot the P20 in 2 shot, wake up mode.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: chiek on April 24, 2014, 03:01:27 am
I'm doing my RZ pro2d (50, 110mm) sometimes with ixpress RZ adapter.
Working fine even Multishot but Can't mirror up so Very slow capture between multishot doing.

110mm lens is excellent , over 39Mpx but 50mm is NOT GOOD.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: bpepz on April 24, 2014, 01:24:59 pm
I'm doing my RZ pro2d (50, 110mm) sometimes with ixpress RZ adapter.
Working fine even Multishot but Can't mirror up so Very slow capture between multishot doing.

110mm lens is excellent , over 39Mpx but 50mm is NOT GOOD.

You need to use the 50mm ULD. The only lens sharper then it in the rz line up is the 140mm LA and the APO lenses.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: bpepz on April 24, 2014, 01:29:09 pm
Also, for anyone interested, It is possible to use any hasselblad H3D back on it. But it is not easy. Leaf made a H mount adapter to the rz67 for their backs, you will have to use one of those. Problem is, it needs modified slightly to get it to fit on a H3D back. The prong is too deep, and the release lever gets in the way. Also, the H3D backs have trouble syncing with analog shutters. I had to do some soldering of wires and make a somewhat convoluted solution, but in practice it shoot seamlessly now.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: chiek on April 25, 2014, 03:00:59 pm
Also, for anyone interested, It is possible to use any hasselblad H3D back on it. But it is not easy. Leaf made a H mount adapter to the rz67 for their backs, you will have to use one of those. Problem is, it needs modified slightly to get it to fit on a H3D back. The prong is too deep, and the release lever gets in the way. Also, the H3D backs have trouble syncing with analog shutters. I had to do some soldering of wires and make a somewhat convoluted solution, but in practice it shoot seamlessly now.
I think H3d and my Hasselbald Cf back interface are same.
I'm use many mechnical shutters for my cf digital backs, just connect your shutter and hasselblad back. What is problem, please detail what is problem sync.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: bpepz on April 25, 2014, 03:38:15 pm
I think H3d and my Hasselbald Cf back interface are same.
I'm use many mechnical shutters for my cf digital backs, just connect your shutter and hasselblad back. What is problem, please detail what is problem sync.

I used to think it would be the same, but apparently the H3D series backs have something different in the way they work.  It is not just me who has seen this, I ended up contacting the guy who made the article below, because I wanted to know how he get his rz67 to sync.

http://probokeh.com/blog/hasselblad-h3d31-vs-mamiya-rz67-pro-ii-h3d31-back/

Turns out, he didn't really get it to sync. He had to use a remote release and set the h3d expose time on the back to 2 seconds, and shoot the rz67 in between. I ended up going a bit further and made my own solution that mainly eliminates that, but it was not easy to figure out.

Alright, as for the problem itself, basically even if I directly sync with a sync cord from the rz67 to the h3d, the exposures will have a horrible purple caste and artifacts at any speed above 1/60th. Interestingly, if there is no ambient light, and you use a strobe, the images turn out perfectly even at 1/400th. This made me believe the h3d backs have a problem with early light, and the low tolerances and timing of the rz67 was too out of sync for it.  My solution, was to solder the cable from a rz67 L-grip into a 2.5mm jack and plug it into the triggering port of the h3d. I then took the other end of the cable from the l-grip for the rz67, which is basically an electronic release, and soldered it into a 3.5mm jack and placed it into the flash output port of the h3d. So, now to shoot with the rz67, I press the "shutter" button on the grip, this "triggers" the h3d and it starts exposing, but nothing has happened yet. As soon as it starts exposing, it sends a signal through the flash output port and triggers the rz67 via the electronic release on the other end. The result? Perfect exposures at all shutter speeds now. You can use this to sync perfectly with the Fuji GX680 as well. It seems this only affects h3d backs. I used it with the h3d-39, and the other guy used an h3dii-31, so I think it is safe to say it is a problem with all of them.
Title: Re: Mamiya RZ67 with digital back?
Post by: Joe Towner on April 25, 2014, 08:10:00 pm
Steve at CI quoted me on a kit for the RZ and my H4D - it was ~$1,300.