Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 07:00:37 AM

Title: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 07:00:37 AM
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/iq-2-group.jpg)

Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq260-and-iq280-what-you-need-to-know)

1. Holy Dynamic Range Batman - Increased to 13 stops
2. Long Exposure has Returned with the Phase One IQ260
3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series
4. Wireless Viewing, No Computer Needed
5. Remote Operation of the Camera
6. Remote Review and Color Tagging
7. Wireless Works With Any iOS Device
8. USB3 is Fast
9. Wireless Works to TV
10. Sample Files Will be Available Soon
11. You Can See One In Person Starting in a Week

Edit: modified to exclude GPS Geotagging which is still pending as of July 12, 2013.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Emilmedia on March 04, 2013, 07:18:45 AM
So there is a half stop of increased dynamic range?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 07:24:06 AM
So there is a half stop of increased dynamic range?

Correct. IQ280 compared to IQ180 will be half a stop increase. IQ260 vs IQ160 will be a half stop increase.

The IQ180 had a smidgen more dynamic range than the IQ160 and this will be true with the IQ2 series as well: the IQ280 will have a smidgen more than the IQ260.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Kagetsu on March 04, 2013, 07:30:46 AM
Looks like they've also updated the back release button too... that switch had better be harder to actuate too.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: flynnyfalcon on March 04, 2013, 07:32:41 AM
•   Long exposures - up to one hour...

What does this mean for the P45+, the current long exposure king?  Does the inevitable high pricetag of !Q2 mean the P45+ value remains relatively unchanged?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: JV on March 04, 2013, 07:39:36 AM
Doug,

Will there be an IQ240?

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 07:39:48 AM
•   Long exposures - up to one hour...

What does this mean for the P45+, the current long exposure king?  Does the inevitable high pricetag of !Q2 mean the P45+ value remains relatively unchanged?

I'd say the market price of the P45+ will remain in demand for many years to come. The IQ260 does now offer long exposure, and does so with a base ISO (in long exposure mode) of 140 which makes it a powerful replacement for a P45+.

However, they are in such different pricing brackets that I don't know if the market price of the P45+ will be that affected.

Certainly I expect that we will be buying many P45+ units as part of upgrades to IQ260 units (for those who wanted the IQ but needed exposures longer than 2 minutes). Which is good because P45+ units became VERY hard to come by.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 07:40:23 AM
Will there be an IQ240?

There isn't in this announcement. That's all I can say for 100% sure.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Emilmedia on March 04, 2013, 07:42:13 AM
If i had 20 000 usd i would trade in my h3dii-39 for a iq160 once the price comes down. But i dont see that happening any time soon.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: JV on March 04, 2013, 07:48:43 AM
That is obviously the next question.  For most people the price of MFD is the main hurdle...  I assume no prices have been announced yet...?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Kolor-Pikker on March 04, 2013, 07:49:20 AM
So there is a half stop of increased dynamic range?
Knowing the way Phase markets the DR of it's cameras, it may actually be more than it seems, the IQ180 was rated as 12.5 stops, but DxO says 13.6 stops. This is probably because 13.6 is the absolute DR down to the noise floor, while 12.5 is what Phase considers "usable". If this is so, the IQ2xx series should have around 14 stops of DR, but at which ISO?

Edit: From GetDPI: "Prices start at 29990 EUR / 39990 USD."  :-[
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Stefan.Steib on March 04, 2013, 07:54:01 AM
And - is the USB3 working now ?

For the rest of it: Wireless - YES That´s definitely an upgrade !
Congrats, that was what was needed !

Regards
Stefan
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Kolor-Pikker on March 04, 2013, 07:57:37 AM
And - is the USB3 working now ?
Read on GetDPI that USB will work out of the gate on the 2xx series, and is almost out on the 1xx

Quote
For the rest of it: Wireless - YES That´s definitely an upgrade !
Congrats, that was what was needed !

Regards
Stefan
iPad as portable field monitor or bust.  ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: amsp on March 04, 2013, 07:59:14 AM
But I thought MFD was dead?  ::)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 07:59:46 AM
And - is the USB3 working now ?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75935.0

USB3 working out of the gate with IQ2.
Firmware for IQ1 now in final testing, available through your dealer as beta now.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 08:01:00 AM
But I thought MFD was dead?  ::)

Yes, and development of sensors has come to a stand still. :-)

O, except for the six new sensors, and three sensor technologies Team Phase One + Dalsa has developed in the last five years.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 08:02:20 AM
Knowing the way Phase markets the DR of it's cameras, it may actually be more than it seems, the IQ180 was rated as 12.5 stops, but DxO says 13.6 stops. This is probably because 13.6 is the absolute DR down to the noise floor, while 12.5 is what Phase considers "usable". If this is so, the IQ2xx series should have around 14 stops of DR, but at which ISO?

Yes, suffice it to say that DxO's definition of and method of measuring dynamic range is not the same as Phase One.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: amsp on March 04, 2013, 08:08:42 AM
Yes, and development of sensors has come to a stand still. :-)

O, except for the six new sensors, and three sensor technologies Team Phase One + Dalsa has developed in the last five years.


Not to mention the fact that you look at pretty much any behind the scenes video from a high-end photo shoot and you'll see it's about 70-90% MFD being used, despite what some people here like to think. My only complaint is that we're now on the second generation IQ-series and still no real new camera in sight.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 08:14:40 AM
Not to mention the fact that you look at pretty much any behind the scenes video from a high-end photo shoot and you'll see it's about 70-90% MFD being used, despite what some people here like to think. My only complaint is that we're now on the second generation IQ-series and still no real new camera in sight.

Just because today's announcement is for new digital backs doesn't mean it's the only thing Phase One is working for (no big surprise here, considering the CEO already publicly announced they are working on an entirely new body).

However, if you haven't used the DF+ you should give it a whirl: it's significantly more improved IMO than the "+" would indicate.

O, and in case there was any doubt the IQ2 will come in all the standard mounts: Mamiya/Phase, Hassy V, Hassy H, and Contax.

Something about mixing an IQ2 with an iPad on a Hassy 500 seems very steam-punk to me.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: amsp on March 04, 2013, 08:17:53 AM
Just because today's announcement is for new digital backs doesn't mean it's the only thing Phase One is working for (no big surprise here, considering the CEO already publicly announced they are working on an entirely new body).

However, if you haven't used the DF+ you should give it a whirl: it's significantly more improved IMO than the "+" would indicate.


I'm sure it is, but I'm still holding out for the completely new one. I'm not much for incremental upgrades.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: torger on March 04, 2013, 08:18:31 AM
Exciting products!

I assume it's is the same sensors being used, but there are improvements in the supporting electronics which makes long exposure and higher DR possible? DR of current IQ 1XX products is already more than adequately high so I think the long exposure feature is more exciting.

Also really nice with the IQ260 achromatic, should be valuable to high end black-and-white artists.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 08:18:56 AM
I'm not much for incremental upgrades.

Fair enough  ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 04, 2013, 08:23:06 AM
More data.


Editor Note: 
Each of the three new systems announced today features high-speed wireless connectivity and 13 full f-stops of dynamic range
More product images are available at: http://www.phaseone.com/media-library
Press Release Follows:


Phase One Announces IQ2 Series Digital Camera Backs Pushes Image Quality Beyond Megapixels

COPENHAGEN, March 4, 2013 — Phase One, the world’s leader in open-platform, medium format camera systems and solutions, today announced the Phase One IQ2 series: three new full-frame 645 format digital camera backs with high-speed wireless connectivity and 13 f-stops of dynamic range, plus new options to meet specific photographic goals. Building on the IQ digital back platform, the first choice of many of the world’s leading photographers, the technical advances in the Phase One IQ280, IQ260 and IQ260 Achromatic go beyond delivering ultra-high megapixel resolution to introduce greater mobility and workflow flexibility for professional photographers.

“Instead of trying to make our wireless connection a replacement for a wired file transfer, as others have done, our solution focuses on helping get the right image capture -- whether that means perfecting composition or focus, or simply easing the challenges of capturing a hard-to-reach image from a remote location,” said Jan H. Christiansen, marketing director, Phase One. 

All IQ2 camera backs feature full-frame 645 format sensors designed collaboratively by Phase One and Teledyne Dalsa to deliver the world’s best image quality. In addition, Phase One IQ2 camera backs deliver a full 13 f-stops of dynamic range, which combined with meticulous calibration and careful hardware and software optimization ensures that the image quality is matched by no other camera.

-- The 80 megapixel IQ280 puts Wi-Fi in a new perspective, enabling remote image capture and viewing of huge 80 megapixel images on an iPad running Phase One’s Capture Pilot App. It represents the pinnacle of image quality. With an ISO as low as 35, no other camera or digital back can get better silk-like images. 

-- The 60 megapixel IQ260 offers unparalleled capture versatility, with exposure ranges from 1/10000s to one hour with virtually noise-free images. The 60 megapixel sensor at the heart of the IQ260 is a unique 645 format full-frame device found only in this digital back. It offers the widest exposure range opportunities on the market coupled with phenomenal image quality. And both the IQ280 and IQ260 capture raw images at 16-bit color depth per channel, enabling reproduction of scenes with ultra-smooth transitions.

-- The Phase One IQ260 Achromatic is a dedicated image capture device designed to deliver the highest-quality pure black and white images. It fully shares the IQ2 series’ “unplugged” assets. At the core of this system is a 60-megapixel sensor with no color filter array mounted, which means that no interpolation is necessary. Each and every pixel of the sensor is focused purely on capturing the finest details of an image. This digital back comes with no mounted IR cut-off filter, and the IQ260 Achromatic is capable of capturing image in three light spectrums: infrared, visible and ultraviolet -- permitting photographers to experiment with a wide range of their choice of filters to create unique images for artistic and scientific purposes.

Capture Made Easy
All IQ2 backs include built-in accelerometers, whose input helps align images perfectly at the moment of capture. An intuitive virtual horizon offers a precise visual indication of an image’s roll and pitch; that data is automatically stored with the images and can be automatically corrected in Capture One software after import.

Rugged Build
IQ2 digital backs combine functional design with rugged build quality. Built of 100 percent aircraft grade aluminum, all electronic connectors and ports are protected with automatic retracting hatches or rubber covers to ensure that they work continuously even in the toughest shooting environments.

Capture One 7 Software
Capture One 7 is built on the world's best raw processing engine and is included with all IQ2 backs, providing highly responsive precision tools to capture, organize, view, edit, share and print images for an efficient workflow and superior image quality results.

Availability and Pricing
The Phase One IQ2 series camera backs are expected to be available in June 2013; they may be ordered now through Phase One professional photography partners worldwide: www.phaseone.com/partners For a complete list of all the new Phase One IQ digital back features, including supported camera bodies, please see www.phaseone.com/iq2

Prices start at 29990 EUR / 39990 USD. Attractive upgrade offers are available for all existing Phase One photographers. For a demo of these new products, please sign up here: www.phaseone.com/demo

About Phase One
Phase One is the world’s leader in open-platform, high-end camera systems and solutions. Phase One cameras, digital backs and lenses are designed to deliver superior quality image capture and investment value. Phase One’s Capture One and Media Pro software help streamline capture and post-production processes for both medium format and DSLR cameras. Phase One products are known for their quality, flexibility and speed enabling pro photographers shooting in a wide range of formats to achieve their creative visions without compromise.

Phase One is an employee-owned company based in Copenhagen with offices in New York, London, Tokyo, Cologne, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Sydney, and Tel Aviv. 

Phase One and Capture One are registered trademarks of Phase One A/S.  All other brand or product names are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holders.

For more information, please visit Phase One at http://www.phaseone.com; or you can contact the team directly on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/PhaseOneWW and on Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Phase-One/184811514906561-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 09:26:54 AM
I love reading press releases before my first cup of coffee.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Kolor-Pikker on March 04, 2013, 09:34:01 AM
I could have put together a press release like that and I don't even know anything about the new backs.

I translated this text "Prices start at 29990 EUR / 39990 USD" from Danish using Google and it told me "please bend over now".
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 09:59:55 AM
Exciting products!

I assume it's is the same sensors being used, but there are improvements in the supporting electronics which makes long exposure and higher DR possible? DR of current IQ 1XX products is already more than adequately high so I think the long exposure feature is more exciting.

That's a reasonable assumption to make. But in this case it's wrong.

The sensor in the IQ260 is an entirely new design with a new pixel-level design and supporting electronics. Implementing long exposure with a Dalsa sensor required some significant R+D.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Steve Hendrix on March 04, 2013, 10:10:12 AM
Here's a quick snap shot at new product pricing:

IQ180>IQ2180 = Available through your dealer

P65+>IQ2 280 = $17,500
P45+>IQ2 280 = $26,800

P65+>IQ2 260 = Our price is set but are not allowed to publish it
P45+>IQ2 260 = $22,500

Other significant changes:

P65+ New = $24,990
P40+ New = $13,990

P65+ Pre-Owned = $17,990
P40+ Pre-Owned = $9,990

Also, significantly, Lens pricing will be going up April 1st. Check with your dealer to see how much you will save buy buying before the price increase.

Steve Hendrix
[email protected]
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: torger on March 04, 2013, 10:17:11 AM
That's a reasonable assumption to make. But in this case it's wrong.

The sensor in the IQ260 is an entirely new design with a new pixel-level design and supporting electronics. Implementing long exposure with a Dalsa sensor required some significant R+D.

Nice! I'd liked to see further development of the 6 um sensor design, and now we got it! What's the color cast performance, same better, or worse?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Mr. Rib on March 04, 2013, 10:17:35 AM
Not that I have a horse in this race, but the timing was really the worst-just checked my email and that's what I had at the list:

"Capture Integration: CI Breaking News: The new Phase One IQ2"
"Phase One: Introducing IQ2 series"
.
.
"Hasselblad: H4D-40 Ferrari Camera - A Race to the Finish Line"

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 10:19:47 AM
Nice! I'd liked to see further development of the 6 um sensor design, and now we got it! What's the color cast performance, same better, or worse?

Same as IQ160. Some significant limitations (previously discussed) with 28XL and minor limitations on the 35XL.

23HR, 28HR, or 32HR would be suggested instead of the 28XL.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Stefan.Steib on March 04, 2013, 10:53:59 AM
Not that I have a horse in this race, but the timing was really the worst-just checked my email and that's what I had at the list:

"Capture Integration: CI Breaking News: The new Phase One IQ2"
"Phase One: Introducing IQ2 series"
.
.
"Hasselblad: H4D-40 Ferrari Camera - A Race to the Finish Line"



I really wished there was more than a bit red color on the Hasselblad side of things. We all can use a healthy portfolio and good competition.

Although there is still no CMOS and according improved Live View, I think the Phase Move was pretty smart.
The only way to get a better standing with the actual CCD´s is to improve connectivity and workflow and they did this to a very large extent.
Still, the question to a battery improvement is very valid, I wish there would be a second, external battery compartment to plug large
4800 or even 7200 mAh batteries to get full support for the improved functionality.
And - next question - what about the dark shots ? Can these be switched off now ? PLEASE !!!!! I mean 1 hour exposure and then 1 hour wait and in the middle of it the batteries die ? Come on !

Overall a good day for MF, I really appreciate the statement and commitment, I heavily rely on a healthy Phase (and Leaf and Blad....) with our HCam
so everybody can imagine I wish them well more than many others might ! And when I criticise this is ment as a help and not as an atttack.

Regards
Stefan
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: KevinA on March 04, 2013, 10:57:17 AM
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/iq-2-group.jpg)

Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq260-and-iq280-what-you-need-to-know)

1. Holy Dynamic Range Batman - Increased to 13 stops
2. Long Exposure has Returned with the Phase One IQ260
3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series
4. Wireless Viewing, No Computer Needed
5. Remote Operation of the Camera
6. Remote Review and Color Tagging
7. Wireless Works With Any iOS Device
8. GPS Auto Geotagging
9. Wireless Works to TV
10. Sample Files Will be Available Soon
11. You Can See One In Person Starting in a Week

Yeah all well on good on the surface, but if there isn't one in Ferrari red I think you will struggle to sell any.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 04, 2013, 12:18:04 PM
Yes, and development of sensors has come to a stand still. :-)
O, except for the six new sensors, and three sensor technologies Team Phase One + Dalsa has developed in the last five years.

P65+, IQ160 and IQ260 seem to be the same sensor. Same sensor for 3 generations of back.

Wireless looks interesting. Can focus be controlled over wireless without going through a computer and directly on
a smart phone or tablet. Not just checked, but controlled.

Also can the wireless signal of the back go through an external antenna rather than have it come straight out of the back?
Sending huge file sizes through one brain for the duration of a shoot can't be healthy.

Can the wireless direct to ipad or iphone send jpeg previews while storing RAW files on the CF card?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: sgilbert on March 04, 2013, 12:22:04 PM
Good questions as always, Fred.  It sounds like you're in the market for a back. 

Just kidding;  you're just Fredding.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Jeffery Salter on March 04, 2013, 12:26:50 PM
Hey Fred.  Take a break.  Be a gentleman and congratulate Phase one.  You have the rest of your life to google squirrel pictures.  And astronaut pictures.

Have a good day,
Jeffery
Title: recent new DMF sensors
Post by: BJL on March 04, 2013, 12:49:18 PM
Yes, and development of sensors has come to a stand still. :-)

O, except for the six new sensors, ... in the last five years.
The newest MF sensor I know of is the 80MP one from Dalsa that has been around for 2 1/2 years, since at least the September 2010 announcement of the Aptus-II 12, and before that the 60MP Dalsa sensor from July 2008, almost five years ago. Is there anything newer? Are the IQ2 models using new sensor new designs, or just making improvements in circuit noise to improve DR a bit?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 04, 2013, 01:09:59 PM
Bravo!
Exactly what I was waiting for.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 04, 2013, 01:16:22 PM
Hey Fred.  Take a break.  Be a gentleman and congratulate Phase one.  You have the rest of your life to google squirrel pictures.  And astronaut pictures.

Have a good day,
Jeffery


Hey Fred,

I have a friend that won't answer his cell phone because he's worried about radio waves, so he only texts and uses land lines.  He also sleeps with aluminum foil on his head, so go figure.

I sent him this, thinking it would allow him to up his communication skills and get a good nights sleep.

(http://www.ehidenface.com/images/Freddy%20Vs%20Jason%20topic%20resin%20mask%20dreaded%20masks.jpg)

Since you seem to be very interested in medium format again, this might be the right accessory for you.

If you don't go Phase, the red accents will match the new Hasselblad Ferrari.

Hope this helps.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: lance_schad on March 04, 2013, 01:17:17 PM
The IQ160 and 260 Achromatic use a similar sensor and the IQ260 with long exposure capabilities has a different sensor.

Lance
Title: Re: recent new DMF sensors
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 01:26:58 PM
Are the IQ2 models using new sensor new designs, or just making improvements in circuit noise to improve DR a bit?

IQ260 is an entirely new sensor design. It is not the same sensor as the 160 or even that sensor with additional electronics. It is a new sensor, and built from the ground-up for good long exposures.
Title: Re: recent new DMF sensors
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 04, 2013, 03:29:43 PM
Hi,

That will make some folks happy!

So, Phase was involved in the sensor design?

Any of the new sensors have micro lenses?

Best regards
Erik

IQ260 is an entirely new sensor design. It is not the same sensor as the 160 or even that sensor with additional electronics. It is a new sensor, and built from the ground-up for good long exposures.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 04, 2013, 04:01:20 PM
I'm completing an article mid-week on all the details of the new sensor, it's design, and other aspects of the "how they pulled a rabbit (dalsa+longexposure) out of a hat"
Title: Re: recent new DMF sensors
Post by: FredBGG on March 04, 2013, 04:12:42 PM
IQ260 is an entirely new sensor design. It is not the same sensor as the 160 or even that sensor with additional electronics. It is a new sensor, and built from the ground-up for good long exposures.

Very interesting.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 04, 2013, 04:36:34 PM
Hi Doug,

Looking forward to that!

Best regards
Erik


I'm completing an article mid-week on all the details of the new sensor, it's design, and other aspects of the "how they pulled a rabbit (dalsa+longexposure) out of a hat"
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Mr. Rib on March 04, 2013, 05:18:20 PM
Yep, should be a nice read. Looking forward to reading the article as well.
Title: Re: recent new DMF sensors
Post by: Nick-T on March 04, 2013, 05:42:46 PM
IQ260 is an entirely new sensor design. .

Are you sure Doug? This guy called Fred says it's not, and I reckon he knows a bunch of stuff about medium format...

Oh wait...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: rogerxnz on March 05, 2013, 12:51:22 AM
I am really excited about the new monochrome back! It's back to the old days of going on location with backs for colour shots and backs for B+W. Just a slight increase now in cost and weight (especially with the batteries required).
Roger
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: NROCH on March 05, 2013, 02:12:01 AM
If the colour cast issue, when used on tech cameras, has also been looked at then this could be a real contender to replace my p45+
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gebseng on March 05, 2013, 05:21:02 AM
Any ideas if live preview will work over WiFi? Hard to imagine though,

geb
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Tony Jay on March 05, 2013, 05:44:53 AM
Any ideas if live preview will work over WiFi? Hard to imagine though,

Maybe Michael can check this out in his forthcoming test and review.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 06:50:13 AM
Live preview over wifi is on the plan but will not be ready on day 1.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gebseng on March 05, 2013, 07:04:35 AM
Wow, that would be exciting! I am shooting architecture tethered to a 11" macbook air, mainly because I really like the large preview for composition. Live preview to an iPad would be SO much more convenient for me…

thanks for the insight,

geb
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 07:07:26 AM
If the colour cast issue, when used on tech cameras, has also been looked at then this could be a real contender to replace my p45+

Color cast is identical to the previous generation (IQ160=IQ260, IQ180=IQ280).

This means the IQ260 will have significant limitations with the Schneider 28XL and some minor limitations with the Schneider 35XL. A Rodenstock 23HR, 28HR, or 32HR would be better choices at that end of the wideness spectrum.

Being limited in the way you can use two specific lenses is something to consider. However, you do have the Rodenstock equivalents at the super wide end, and you can use any of the Schneiders starting around 43mm without meaningful limitations.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Jeffery Salter on March 05, 2013, 07:52:51 AM
Hi Doug,

The IQ260 will be perfect for my magazine work.  No more tripping over the tether cable....Will the wireless work with other brands of tablets?

When will the new body be coming out?  My present DF body only goes to 1/4000 and new back will allow one to shoot at 1/10,000.  Also will the flash sync be increased?

Thank you,
Jeffery
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gerald.d on March 05, 2013, 09:06:58 AM
Jeffrey -

I'm not sure you should read too much into the 1/10,000th shutter speed capability. This has been the quoted performance cabability of backs since (at least) the P65+.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 09:37:48 AM
The IQ260 will be perfect for my magazine work.  No more tripping over the tether cable....Will the wireless work with other brands of tablets?

When will the new body be coming out?  My present DF body only goes to 1/4000 and new back will allow one to shoot at 1/10,000.  Also will the flash sync be increased?

Wireless at launch will only support the iPad/iPad Mini/iPhone/iPod Touch.

They are considering a version which would support a broader range of devices. But I wouldn't count on it, and such a solution definitely won't be ready at time of launch.

The only public comments on a new body is by the CEO saying it is a project they are working on. I can't be more specific than that.

Flash sync of 1/1600 is already a full stop higher than any other body which accomplishes flash sync by means of a leaf shutter. I suspect we won't see anything faster than that based on mechanical technology (leaf shutters), or if we do it will only be a bit faster. Surely at some point electronic shutter technology ("global shutter") will reach the point where a sensor can be designed with it without any image-quality compromises. At that point every shutter speed will sync with flash. But I suspect we are several years from that.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: abiggs on March 05, 2013, 09:46:39 AM
For your viewing pleasure:

http://vimeo.com/61092760
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: shaun on March 05, 2013, 09:51:11 AM
Hi

Does the wifi to ipad send a jpeg or full raw file?

Shaun
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: abiggs on March 05, 2013, 09:51:48 AM
It's just the jpg preview....
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: shaun on March 05, 2013, 09:55:50 AM
Thanks Andy

Ok, then I guess similar to Hasselblad.

Shaun
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 09:57:36 AM
Does the wifi to ipad send a jpeg or full raw file?

To be a technical nit-pick I wouldn't call it a "JPG".

But Biggs is right, the IQ2 is doing all the math/decoding and sending it in real time to the iPad. So when you zoom to 100% on the iPad the IQ2 will decode just that part of the file and send it to the iPad. This makes it really fast compared to any solution where you have to transmit the entire file. You can zoom to 100% after capture, even on an 80mp file.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: abiggs on March 05, 2013, 09:59:05 AM
This is amazing technology, and I am jones-ing for long exposures as well as the review capabilities.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: TMARK on March 05, 2013, 10:39:36 AM
Samples from Acromatic!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 11:34:54 AM
Ok, then I guess similar to Hasselblad.

Hasselblad (and Phase One before this announcement) requires a computer between the digital back and the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch. In other words you must be tethered, and the computer is the device broadcasting to the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch device.

This announcement is for the IQ2 which can broadcast directly from the digital back to the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: rogerxnz on March 05, 2013, 12:24:17 PM
This announcement is for the IQ2 which can broadcast directly from the digital back to the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch.

At last, we have the equivalent functionality to what the Bluetooth-equipped Aptus backs gave us 10 years ago!
Roger
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 12:42:02 PM
Yes, the Aptus+iPaq was WAY ahead of it's time.

But working over bluetooth it was very slow and the iPaq itself left a lot to be desired regarding battery life, interface, responsiveness, boot up speed etc.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: TMARK on March 05, 2013, 01:59:07 PM
Yes, the Aptus+iPaq was WAY ahead of it's time.

But working over bluetooth it was very slow and the iPaq itself left a lot to be desired regarding battery life, interface, responsiveness, boot up speed etc.

I rented a Leaf back from Fotocare once and they handed me the iPaq.  I played within for a night and thought to myself:  "One day this will be amazing.  But not now."  That day seems to have arrived.

Good job Phase.  Are the Leaf backs due for an upgrade to this tech? 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: george2787 on March 05, 2013, 03:46:45 PM
Very cool feature, it would be even cooler if you could do the same thing on any computer running c1, when I can I shoot to a 27" imac and is great for reviewing.

I expect this wifi-feature to devour battery life, any real life tests?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 05, 2013, 03:49:49 PM
The wifi implementation direct to iPad sending low res Full image and then tiles for zooming in
is a very smart approach. Minimal data is sent around saving battery and minimizing how much your optic nerve is exposed
to the wifi signal.... the antenna is really very very close to your eye. Smart to send just what the screen needs to display.
Efficient and a "fuel efficient" way to make it fast.

Nice work by Phase on this.

If I understand correctly it is not a substitute for tethering to save all raws to the computer or iPad.
However it is a very nice review tool. Particularly nice that it can send rating back to the camera.

One thought. Using an ad hoc network set up and emanating from the camera requires that the back
power the wifi all the time and emitting a signal to keep the ad hoc network up.

Can it work using an ad hoc network setup by an iPad or tablet PC? Would save back battery power and
minimize wifi exposure if your peeking into the camera for a long time.


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 05, 2013, 03:52:45 PM
Very cool feature, it would be even cooler if you could do the same thing on any computer running c1, when I can I shoot to a 27" imac and is great for reviewing.

I expect this wifi-feature to devour battery life, any real life tests?

Ad hoc network probably quite greedy, but the really efficient way of sending only low res and parts of the image seems very efficient.

Also for the type of use being made long range is not really necessary so there is probably no need for a powerful signal.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 05, 2013, 03:56:17 PM
To be a technical nit-pick I wouldn't call it a "JPG".

But Biggs is right, the IQ2 is doing all the math/decoding and sending it in real time to the iPad. So when you zoom to 100% on the iPad the IQ2 will decode just that part of the file and send it to the iPad. This makes it really fast compared to any solution where you have to transmit the entire file. You can zoom to 100% after capture, even on an 80mp file.

This is sort of like a pyramid stack like Live Picture the retouching software used back in the day. Open and look at just as much as is needed. VERY smart.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 04:09:49 PM
One thought. Using an ad hoc network set up and emanating from the camera requires that the back
power the wifi all the time and emitting a signal to keep the ad hoc network up.

Can it work using an ad hoc network setup by an iPad or tablet PC? Would save back battery power and
minimize wifi exposure if your peeking into the camera for a long time.

Yes. Though generating an ad hoc network does not take that much more power than hitching a ride on an existing network, so I would not expect battery life to be drastically different.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 05, 2013, 04:13:35 PM
Also for the type of use being made long range is not really necessary so there is probably no need for a powerful signal.

We're expecting operating range over ad-hoc to be around 8 meters. I agree that covers most anticipated uses. Though, I can imagine many situations where a greater distance would be very useful, and for those situations (and really any situation for which plugging an airport express into an a/c outlet isn't a hinderance) a dedicated wifi network would be preferable..
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 05, 2013, 06:44:54 PM
We're expecting operating range over ad-hoc to be around 8 meters. I agree that covers most anticipated uses. Though, I can imagine many situations where a greater distance would be very useful, and for those situations (and really any situation for which plugging an airport express into an a/c outlet isn't a hinderance) a dedicated wifi network would be preferable..

You could also use a battery powered hotspot as a go between the ipad and the back.

Even a Galaxy SIII with the double  "fat"  battery could do the job as it can make an ad hoc network.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 05, 2013, 07:25:28 PM
We're expecting operating range over ad-hoc to be around 8 meters. I agree that covers most anticipated uses. Though, I can imagine many situations where a greater distance would be very useful, and for those situations (and really any situation for which plugging an airport express into an a/c outlet isn't a hinderance) a dedicated wifi network would be preferable..

Okay Doug that is just not freaking far enough from the Grizzly sucking down a fish that I want to shoot can we please work on twelve meters here. I'm getting old and slow with not enough speed to run my ass off at 8 meters maybe 12 I have a fighting chance. You guys really need to step up your game here. Please pass this on to Phase and let them know I said not good enough. I need more.
( I should add here I bet Nikon can do it, I'm sure will hear about it)

Better yet I'm sending your butt to the camera and hit the shutter and I will  direct it from the IPad . ROTFLMAO

Small detail its a 28mm on the tech cam. Sorry bud
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: jsiva on March 05, 2013, 07:54:13 PM
Okay Doug that is just not freaking far enough from the Grizzly sucking down a fish that I want to shoot can we please work on twelve meters here. I'm ...

Guy, surely you are not planning on leaving your spanking new IQ260 and 28mm on a Cambo with ivory handles for the grizzly?  At at 8m, at least you have a chance to jump in between the bear and the kit -- you need to think practical here :)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 05, 2013, 08:00:49 PM
Guy, surely you are not planning on leaving your spanking new IQ260 and 28mm on a Cambo with ivory handles for the grizzly?  At at 8m, at least you have a chance to jump in between the bear and the kit -- you need to think practical here :)

ROTFLMAO. Damn forgot about the ivory handles. That alone is worth getting in between them
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: julienlanoo on March 06, 2013, 12:33:41 PM
That direct ipad thing, i could do that 5 years ago with a leaf valeo and palm pad, so i think its logical they use the technology again.. On modern pads ?..
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: julienlanoo on March 06, 2013, 12:35:34 PM
What would be nice is if we could use capture pilot to rename files.. Handy when shooting packshots in studio ...

As i could stay near my set instead of always rolling around on the chair to see te computer ...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: MrSmith on March 06, 2013, 12:43:12 PM
Will there be a Bently edition? I want sharkskin, engine turned aluminium plates and British racing green.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 12:44:15 PM
That direct ipad thing, i could do that 5 years ago with a leaf valeo and palm pad, so i think its logical they use the technology again.. On modern pads ?..

Same idea.

VERY different programming/implementation on both the camera side and the viewing device side.

Main difference to the end user: much faster than the Valeo bluetooth solution.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 12:45:08 PM
What would be nice is if we could use capture pilot to rename files.. Handy when shooting packshots in studio ...

As i could stay near my set instead of always rolling around on the chair to see te computer ...

I'll definitely make that suggestion. Alternatively (or in addition), some form of keywording (in addition to the rating/color-tags) could help with this.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 06, 2013, 02:12:15 PM

Same idea.

VERY different programming/implementation on both the camera side and the viewing device side.

Main difference to the end user: much faster than the Valeo bluetooth solution.

I briefly owned a Valeo before my Aptus came in, great studio camera, really great as it didn't take much power to run it and it was bulletproof.

Used the Ipaq thing on two location gigs.  It took a long time to get it worked out, larger batteries for the Ipaq and Leaf was upgrading the firmware, but once it did work it worked great except the bluetooth signal only went to one ipaq.

Shot one gig on a great loft on Wooster.  Had 11 clients and the room we were shooting in they just couldn't fit (than god), so they went to another room and 9 people huddled around that little Ipaq and watched every frame.

Doug, which leads to a few question on your new backs.

1.  Does the wi-fi signal go to more than one Ipad?  This to me is really important as 1/2 the projects we do have multiple "eyes" that want/need to see.

2.  What is the fps or spf of the 260?   

3.  Can you set color/tone/look on the Ipaq, like in C-1 so the view is a little more customized?

4.  What is availability for other camera platforms.  Usually Contax is last on the list to come out.  In regards to mounts what will be offered.  Obviously DF+ and H, Contax, but any other mounts without adapters?

5. What is the REAL useable ISO?  Keep in mind that I don't mind some noise if it's pretty and shoot my P30+ at 800 iso all the time. Does all the IQ series do as well as the P30+ because the last time I used an Aptus with a Dalsa sensor, I loved the look but it didn't go to 800 as well as the Kodak sensor. 

6.  I know your just getting these in, but how is the realiability.  Stability is first on my list and I have zero time to go back and forth with issues? (This isn't a knock on Phase, because nearly all digital devices seem to need a series of firmware updates to catch some issues.

7.  Will a Leaf version on the wi-fi become available.  I love the reliability of my Phase backs, but recently did a quick test (actually testing LED fresnels) and tested a H4d, a Aptus and a IQ and in my very brief test, like the Leaf interface.   On a side note I thought the DF (not the plus) autofocus was very good.  I know there are some people that didn't think that, so when I tested these cameras, I really tried to trick the DF autofocus with people passing the foreground, soft backlight, walking to camera at a quick pace, etc. and thought the DF worked very well in autofocus.  I did have more difficulty hitting manual focus on the DF and not to hijack a thread, but thought the H4d40 I tested had good manual focus.

8.  Will the IQ backs (the new and the older IQ versions give a black and white preview?  I don't shoot a lot of B+W only projects but when I do it's great to see it in black and white.

9.  This question is going to seem kinda of crazy but for years we've investigated ways to get multiple screen views from one camera.  Let me explain.  I've always wanted to have a custom frame build (kind of like rack mount video/field monitors, that work like this.  Let's say you have 8 monitors (of Ipads).  When you fire the first frame it goes on screen one and holds, frame 2 goes to screen 2 and holds, frame three goes to screen 3 and holds, etc. etc. until frame nine that then refreshes to frame 1 and starts the process again. 

(sorry to go off topic but . . .)

I know this sounds like a dog and pony show (it is) but these is a usefulness of this as clients are always huddling around the tech station when we're shooting saying "can you go back to the previous frame.

Also, regardless of economy, regardless of stripped down production, client's love production like this.  This really takes viewer ease to a different level and is something they can't do at home with their dslr.

If you ever been on a film set, there are multiple viewing monitors all around the set and allows client's ADs to be in one viewing area, the on set art crew can view from a closer to set area, etc.

People on this forum will tell you that the camera or system you use doesn't matter to clients, but today it does, especially when the client comes off a gig where the previous photographer only shot to a powerbook or no tethering at all.  Your not going to ever have them come over and say "wow" I hire you guys because of the camera you use (in fact I'd never want to hear that), but the last few projects we've done have illustrated how the complete view of the production impresses a client.

A few weeks ago we shot a TV/financial celeb, in Bev Hills.  He works 324 days a year and came directly off our set from a network set across the street in a rental location.
(http://spotsinthebox.com/prod_still.jpg)

I peeked into the Network set and it wasn't as advanced as ours, as we ran three reds, our two phase backs and two people with Canons shooting behind the scenes and some stylized behind the scenes to be inserted into the digital video piece.

The subject actually inserted a line in the script talking about how much production value was in the shoot and I heard the AD tell the client  "this is why budget is important to give you and your subject a first rate production".

A shoot, a month previous was for a book cover.  The most challenging (to put it politely) subject I've ever worked with.  Because of outside forces the publisher became pressed for budget and was looking for ways to cut costs . . . after the shoot.   

They briefly asked if I would trim a somewhat large amount and before I could respond they put the invoice into payment at full price.  When I talked to the AD she said she looked at our estimate and compared it to what we brought on set in regards to production values in equipment and crew and said it wouldn't have been fair to cut our price.

Had we been running a leaner project it would have shown and I bet they would have tried to cut the costs. 

10.   How will the IQ2 impact the prices on the IQ1?   Will there bee a rush of trade ins/ups?

11.   Any word (wink wink) of what the new phase camera will be like.

I vote for a removable prism with a series of finders, high eye point, chimney tube, 90 degree prism.  Also I'd love to see a series of cropping guides (actually black out would be better) so when you go 4:3 to 2:3 you can exactly see the crop. 

Actually I'd love for this to be on a some kind of orientation sensor.  In other words the crop changes if you move the camera from horizontal to vertical.

Every horizontal I shoot is either cropped around 2:3 or 16x9, or 2:1, every vertical I shoot is 4:3.

It would be great if the camera did this.

Another option would be an RZ type of blade system where the back rotates and when it does blades crop out the optical viewfinder so you exactly see the orientation.

I'm not wild about little red lines or etched ground glass (plastic) because under pressure with a revolving back you just forget sometimes.

Also on dslrs that have those crop lines AND all of those little blinking focus points blocking the screen makes composition a little difficult. 

12.  I doubt if this will happen, but what is the chance of a back that mounts to different platforms, like a Hasselblad and a Contax?  I know, I know, but a person can wish.

13.  Is it possible to put my p21+ inside an IQ2?   Just kidding, actually not exactly as I love the speed, the file look of the p21.  I've shot that back so often and worked it so much in post I have it zoned out like I know my favorite pair of shoes.  It's just all automatic to me making that file look like film.

I know, I know nobody is going back in pixels.

Actually I find all this high pixel count talk interesting.

When Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad comes out with more megapixels, I know a lot of photographers that use dslrs that said they don't need more megapixels.  Of course the same photographers flipped when the Nikon came out saying "see, see, this camera has the same megapixels as a medium format back.

Go figure.

Sorry for the long post.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on March 06, 2013, 02:29:15 PM

And - next question - what about the dark shots ? Can these be switched off now ? PLEASE !!!!! I mean 1 hour exposure and then 1 hour wait and in the middle of it the batteries die ? Come on !


I found out today, seemingly you still have to use the dark exposure. I find this to be a complete waste of time. I mean can someone here please explain their workflow if they take a 1hr exposure and than have to sit there scratching their ass for another hour before another exposure can be captured. It's like you buy a nice car but you have to push it half the journey each time. The camera seems fantastic but why the hell do Phase One re design the sensor and than offer what appears to be a great feature but is unusable for many photographers due to the time required to capture the shot.
Title: Re: Phase One annoucement
Post by: sanzari on March 06, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
i am going to be so childish as I had a bad day at Focus in the UK with the total lack of innovation in the camera market. Rubbish from Nikon, nothing from Canon, resin from Fuji, Pentax who, Hassleblad blah blah Sony yep another repeat. Phase were not present so here goes -

1. Holy Dynamic Range Batman - Increased to 13 stops - and given most of these cameras are used in studios why do i need 13 stops as the lighting is totally controlled ? Most of the ones that make it into the field are they working professionals who actually bought the camera ??
2. Long Exposure has Returned with the Phase One IQ260 - brilliant so the ones that get out in the world (most are loaners on test) it appears to take a while to process. the fact it has returned , innovation ???
3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series - perfect and so I dont need SilverEfex Pro which is leaps ahead of most things for $100, and as I shoot raw why do i need an 80 million pixel jpeg
4. Wireless Viewing, No Computer Needed  - brilliant, except Nikon D800 is unusable with RAW images over the wire. I hope Phase has put in something else to move images faster, but everyone says JPEG only so hmmm
5. Remote Operation of the Camera - i thought this was already there, called assistant please press the button
6. Remote Review and Color Tagging - in the studio takes ages to walk from one end to the other
7. Wireless Works With Any iOS Device - great, at least we may find one fast enough
8. GPS Auto Geotagging - I know where my studio is and actually it spends all its time there, save the innovation and add something like a new camera
9. Wireless Works to TV
10. Sample Files Will be Available Soon - great
11. You Can See One In Person Starting in a Week - brilliant


Well I know it was childish but we need innovation if people are going to announce version 2 products. Phase will be the only MF maker left, they are a great company and likely the others will fold through lack of users or people moving to DSLR as it being good enough.

Please everyone upgrade to Q2, that way as a working photographer who pays for my gear I might one day afford the P65+ or 45+, all these 11 points are huge innovation and a must have set of features, so upgrade come on, the lease will just extend and you will only pay 20% more of the original price of your upgradeable model.

Right childish behaviour over, come one phase, give us that camera and be all you can be, best SW, Best Back best camera,


Title: Re: Phase One annoucement
Post by: jsiva on March 06, 2013, 03:55:58 PM

3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series - perfect and so I dont need SilverEfex Pro which is leaps ahead of most things for $100, and as I shoot raw why do i need an 80 million pixel jpeg


Converting a file that has gone through a bayer array to B&W is quite different from a file from an Achromatic sensor which does not have the bayer array to begin with.  There is a difference.  The Leica MM and previous Phase Achromat+ are the only "production" versions of this kind of sensor I am aware of.  Kodak may have had one in the early days as well.  Unlike the Leica MM, both old and new Phase Achromatic backs allow full-spectrum accross UV, visible and IR.

While I do enjoy using Silver EFEX and consider it a great product, we are talking two different animals here.

Also, the file out of the Achro back is not a JPEG - as in processed into BW.  It is a BW RAW file.
Title: Re: Phase One annoucement
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 06, 2013, 04:55:56 PM
The Leica MM and previous Phase Achromat+ are the only "production" versions of this kind of sensor I am aware of. 

And the Red Epic Monochrome...  I have a project I think I need one of those for  ;)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gazwas on March 06, 2013, 04:56:15 PM
Sanzari, you must of had a bad day!

Just shows we are all very different - the IQ2 feature set is just what every MFD shooter dreams about. The Wifi to iPad/iPad Mini/network alone is just amazing. Shoot with a tech camera and you will understand that as good as the IQ's built in screen is, 3.2" is just not very big for image review. As for DR, I don't understand your point of view - who wouldn't want more just because they shoot in a studio?

My P65 shoots beautiful files and I think it is a wonderful back but the whole IQ package is just excellent. Today I was shooting some product lifestyle shots with the 150D on the DF and this combo just rocks. The IQ would be the icing on the cake!
Title: Re: Phase One annoucement
Post by: jsiva on March 06, 2013, 05:05:06 PM
And the Red Epic Monochrome...  I have a project I think I need one of those for  ;)

Chris, I stand corrected, but those are the really big boys and I'm not allowed to run with that crew :)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 05:17:58 PM
1.  Does the wi-fi signal go to more than one Ipad?  This to me is really important as 1/2 the projects we do have multiple "eyes" that want/need to see.

No. On launch day it will only work with one iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch. Maybe something for future firmware improvements.

However, any iOS device can be jacked into an HDMI monitor or HDMI TV.

If you're in a studio, shooting in a more controlled environment, and don't mind the tether cable I think tethering is still the best option. That gives you one or two primary monitors at the tether station and the option for several iPads.


2.  What is the fps or spf of the 260?    

In full resolution (60mp) speed is 1fps with no buffer limit (you can fill a large CF card without slowing down)

If you're ok with the 15mp resolution in sensor+ mode that increases to 1.4 fps (again, no buffer limit)

3.  Can you set color/tone/look on the Ipaq, like in C-1 so the view is a little more customized?

Today: no.

In the future, perhaps some minimal/limited customizations (a few presets for curves/color for instance). I would not buy it predicated on that requirement.

4.  What is availability for other camera platforms.  Usually Contax is last on the list to come out.  In regards to mounts what will be offered.  Obviously DF+ and H, Contax, but any other mounts without adapters?

Contax, Hassy H, Hassy V, Mamiya/Phase

The first batch to ship will surely be Mamiya/Phase but the others should follow shortly thereafter.

5. What is the REAL useable ISO?  Keep in mind that I don't mind some noise if it's pretty and shoot my P30+ at 800 iso all the time. Does all the IQ series do as well as the P30+ because the last time I used an Aptus with a Dalsa sensor, I loved the look but it didn't go to 800 as well as the Kodak sensor.  

I'd MUCH rather answer this by providing you raw files at ISO 200/400/800 and letting you decide. High ISO performance will be very similar to an IQ1 so I can provide such samples today. Capture One v7 does a great job with higher ISO files (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152207239185165&set=a.10152207238975165.923078.126184805164&type=3&theater), especially from a digital back.

But if you're asking for my personal opinion I think ISO400 on full resolution and ISO1600 in sensor+ resolution are both eminently useable. Both will have grain/bite, but it's "pretty" in my opinion (again, I'd rather provide you files you can play with and decide for yourself).


6.  I know your just getting these in, but how is the realiability.  Stability is first on my list and I have zero time to go back and forth with issues? (This isn't a knock on Phase, because nearly all digital devices seem to need a series of firmware updates to catch some issues.

As you say, all we have is prototypes, so I absolutely cannot comment directly on real world reliability of the shipping product - they haven't shipped yet.

I think one can have high confidence in them based on these facts:
- as you've experienced with your own P1 backs, P1 has a solid track record of reliable performance
- these are an improved version of an existing/established/proven line. All the kinks of the IQ1 were worked out long ago.

Putting on my cynical digital tech hat for a second, it is absolutely the case that a brand new product should be assumed buggy until proven stable/reliable in hard testing. Perhaps you'd like to volunteer to play this role for us and report the results the forum?

7.  Will a Leaf version on the wi-fi become available.  I love the reliability of my Phase backs, but recently did a quick test (actually testing LED fresnels) and tested a H4d, a Aptus and a IQ and in my very brief test, like the Leaf interface.   On a side note I thought the DF (not the plus) autofocus was very good.  I know there are some people that didn't think that, so when I tested these cameras, I really tried to trick the DF autofocus with people passing the foreground, soft backlight, walking to camera at a quick pace, etc. and thought the DF worked very well in autofocus.  I did have more difficulty hitting manual focus on the DF and not to hijack a thread, but thought the H4d40 I tested had good manual focus.

I can't comment on products that don't exist. Team Phase One is one company and includes Phase One, Leaf, Mamiya, and a long term strategic arrangement with Schneider, but for now the IQ2 technology is only in the IQ2.

If you liked the DF autofocus I think you'll really like the DF+ autofocus. The DF was accurate, but would occasionally hunt for focus. The DF+ locks on more immediately, with more confidence, and with what can only be described as more gusto.

That said, you love Contax, and I'd never try to talk someone out of a body they feel they have a great working relationship with.

8.  Will the IQ backs (the new and the older IQ versions give a black and white preview?  I don't shoot a lot of B+W only projects but when I do it's great to see it in black and white.

9.  This question is going to seem kinda of crazy but for years we've investigated ways to get multiple screen views from one camera.  Let me explain.  I've always wanted to have a custom frame build (kind of like rack mount video/field monitors, that work like this.  Let's say you have 8 monitors (of Ipads).  When you fire the first frame it goes on screen one and holds, frame 2 goes to screen 2 and holds, frame three goes to screen 3 and holds, etc. etc. until frame nine that then refreshes to frame 1 and starts the process again.  

I know this sounds like a dog and pony show (it is) but these is a usefulness of this as clients are always huddling around the tech station when we're shooting saying "can you go back to the previous frame.

This could absolutely be done today (I'm pretty sure I could program it), but would require a LOT of custom programming/scripting/implementation which probably makes it impractical to pursue on your own. I think it's a really fantastic idea and I'll pass it on to Phase One; it's very specific, but tools like Overlay, Focus Mask, and the Profoto lighting control in Capture One all started as user requests that seemed very narrow-application at first.

You may also want to look into the WEB version of Capture Pilot, which could be viewed on an iPad, iPhone, or iMac (or any internet connected device with a modern browser including smart TVs). It's interface is not exactly as you describe, but might address the same problem in an efficient (and bullet proof) manner without any custom code and with minimal setup/hassle.
[/quote]

10.   How will the IQ2 impact the prices on the IQ1?   Will there bee a rush of trade ins/ups?

List price for the IQ1 has already been lowered in anticipation of the shipping of the IQ2 this summer. This sounds saleish, but so be it: the next few months will be an excellent time to buy an IQ1 whether used, new, refurbished, from a dealer or not. Once the IQ2 has started shipping the volume of trade-ins
will slow considerably.

I do expect a lot of trade-ins, especially from the IQ160 and P45+. So if you're looking for pre-owned my suggestion would be to make your desires/time-frame/budget known to your dealer of choice so it's on their desk as they start taking trade-in deals. Especially for Contax or Hassy V users, as those mounts are less common in an IQ back.

11.   Any word (wink wink) of what the new phase camera will be like.

I think the IQ, IQ2, and Schneider LS lenses are the best real-world guidelines as to what Team Phase One's R+D department are able to accomplish with today's technology. Translate that level of industrial design, electronic performance, and design priorities into a body and you have the most concrete information I can give you :-).


12.  I doubt if this will happen, but what is the chance of a back that mounts to different platforms, like a Hasselblad and a Contax?  I know, I know, but a person can wish.

For better or worse I think the chance of this is zero. Sorry :(

13.  Is it possible to put my p21+ inside an IQ2?   Just kidding, actually not exactly as I love the speed, the file look of the p21.  I've shot that back so often and worked it so much in post I have it zoned out like I know my favorite pair of shoes.  It's just all automatic to me making that file look like film.

I know, I know nobody is going back in pixels.

Actually...

P21+ is 1.25 fps, 18mp (4:3) with ISO100-800 (I'd say 400 was the highest usable, opinions rightly vary).

IQ160 in sensor+ is 1.4 fps, 15mp (4:3) with ISO200-3200 (I'd say 1600 is the highest usable, opinions rightly vary).

So I think it's fair to say you can have a P21+ in an IQ. You'll also receive, as a nice "extra" the option to flip a switch and shoot 60mp, 1fps (4:3) with ISO50-800. Also, it will be full frame, rather than a 1.3 crop. So when shooting your 80/2 lens wide open you'll get an even crazier shallow DOF.

Every camera has a unique look/draw. However, a good dealer can work with a collection of sample files from both cameras (under your lighting types/style/etc) and help you craft C1 styles (curves, profiles, etc) for the new back which closely mimics the older back. I've done this several times.
Title: Re: Phase One annoucement
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 05:38:22 PM
1. Holy Dynamic Range Batman - Increased to 13 stops - and given most of these cameras are used in studios why do i need 13 stops as the lighting is totally controlled ? Most of the ones that make it into the field are they working professionals who actually bought the camera ??

Of our IQ customers I'd say over half shoot outside or in uncontrolled light at least 20% of the time, and at least a quarter of them do so at least 80% of the time*. This is a big change from a decade ago when the Phase One H25 was just being released and could only shoot tethered, had no LCD and was, in practice, limited to ISO100. Perhaps that's what you think medium format is today; but that is not the Phase One IQ.

When shooting architecture, interior, landscape, location fashion, location portrait, weddings, or any event DR can be enormously important.

If exclusively shooting in studio with full control over lighting I completely agree DR is not high on my priority list.

It really never hurts though.

2. Long Exposure has Returned with the Phase One IQ260 - brilliant so the ones that get out in the world (most are loaners on test) it appears to take a while to process. the fact it has returned , innovation ???


I'd agree it doesn't count as "innovation" as they already did it before with the P45+. This time around they've increased the base ISO for long exposures to ISO140 which means waiting around 1/3rd as long.

But "innovation" or not it's going to be very popular.

3. Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series - perfect and so I dont need SilverEfex Pro which is leaps ahead of most things for $100, and as I shoot raw why do i need an 80 million pixel jpeg

Not everyone will understand/want/care-about an 60mp raw bayer-free pure black and white camera with the ability to shoot visible, IR, or UV images, in a chassis with all the features of the IQ. In fact, most people will not. For a small group of fine art shooters, hobbyists, scientific/technical/art-reproduction/preservation/aerial companies, and purists it is not an exaggeration to say this is a huge announcement.

4. Wireless Viewing, No Computer Needed  - brilliant, except Nikon D800 is unusable with RAW images over the wire. I hope Phase has put in something else to move images faster, but everyone says JPEG only so hmmm
7. Wireless Works With Any iOS Device - great, at least we may find one fast enough

Correct. Sending full raw files wirelessly is a recipe for slow performance, and a disjointed workflow (when the raws are both on the CF and computer, and it can be a challenge to be 100% sure all CF card images made it to the computer).

That's why P1 made the wireless review/editing function work in an entirely different way. The images remain on the CF card, and the iPad/iPhone can view the shots as they are made, or review past shots, including rating, tagging, and white balancing.

6. Remote Review and Color Tagging - in the studio takes ages to walk from one end to the other

If YOU (the photographer) are rating the images then the iPad/iPhone option will not be that helpful - you can already do this on the back of the camera, or at the tether station.

However, in many workflows it is some third party (art director, client, hair stylist, talent manager etc) who is rating the images. If they have to do so on the tether computer or on the back of the camera the shoot can grind to a halt. Put them in a cushy seat, give them a glass of chardonay and an iPad, ask them to mark images they are fond of (in an interface a child could use, and which provides no chance for them to screw up the images somehow), and maybe they will stay the heck out of the way.  ;D

5. Remote Operation of the Camera - i thought this was already there, called assistant please press the button

We have customers use remote operation in situations where the camera is not easily/advisably accessible (e.g. on a crane, in a cherry picker, mounted overhead of a set, etc). Having that control without having to tether to a computer will open up some possibilities.

We also have several customers who do relatively large shoots solo (for privacy, for cost, out of tradition/hatred-for-working-with-others). For them to walk into the set (of e.g. an interior) and move something and have the ability to trigger the camera, change aperture/shutter/iso, and see the resulting image (without having to tether or walk back to the camera) will be a big deal.
 
8. GPS Auto Geotagging - I know where my studio is and actually it spends all its time there, save the innovation and add something like a new camera

If you never leave your studio GPS auto tagging won't help you one iota.

Many of our customers do, and for them auto tagging of GPS data without any additional accessories/cost (assuming you own an iPhone) will be very nice.

They are working on a new camera, as announced publicly by the CEO. You can R+D more than one project at once. In fact if you don't you're likely to fail.

That said the DF+, H4X, Contax, RZ, and Rollei all make pretty darn good cameras today. As do the plethera of tech cameras (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/cambo-cameras) and view cameras. All offer capabilities you cannot find in a dSLR, and capabilities different from each other, creating a nice ecosystem if you ask me.

*this is of course just a guesstimation - made in good faith, and with decent experience to make it, but nevertheless based on no formal survey/statistics/science.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 05:50:52 PM
I found out today, seemingly you still have to use the dark exposure. I find this to be a complete waste of time. I mean can someone here please explain their workflow if they take a 1hr exposure and than have to sit there scratching their ass for another hour before another exposure can be captured. It's like you buy a nice car but you have to push it half the journey each time. The camera seems fantastic but why the hell do Phase One re design the sensor and than offer what appears to be a great feature but is unusable for many photographers due to the time required to capture the shot.

Bear in mind the base ISO of the long exposure is now ISO140 rather than ISO50 (as it was with the P45+). So if the P45+ required an hour for a given scene the IQ260 will only require 20 minutes, followed by a 20 minute dark frame - 20 minutes LESS than the hour the P45+ required just to do the capture (let along the dark frame).

Now if your goal is specifically to do time lapse or star trails, in which you only care about doing multiple exposures in a row with minimal gap (rather than getting enough light from a given scene for a good exposure) then the dark frame sucks. There are some work arounds for some situations; others it's a simple no-go.

Of the backs that don't require a dark frame the longest exposure specification is 256 seconds at ISO100. So for anyone who wants more than that in a digital back this is the best solution out there. You have to give them some credit for getting much more in the way of long exposure out of each sensor than anyone else has. If it doesn't work for your needs I totally understand, but that doesn't make it a "waste of time" for everyone; others will have other needs which this fits extremely well.

Now, why the dark frame can't be turned off for shorter exposures (e.g. 15 seconds) where it's conceivable that you could maybe get good quality without it - that does irk me a bit. I'll be speaking with R+D about the technology behind the IQ260 long exposure soon and will ask about this.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 06, 2013, 05:52:22 PM
Just shows we are all very different - the IQ2 feature set is just what every MFD shooter dreams about. The Wifi to iPad/iPad Mini/network alone is just amazing. Shoot with a tech camera and you will understand that as good as the IQ's built in screen is, 3.2" is just not very big for image review. As for DR, I don't understand your point of view - who wouldn't want more just because they shoot in a studio?

The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

I can understand the value of wifi for the x% of IQ users shooting for clients in "studio" environment (indoors or outdoors) because it may help show them live images being shot (but a large HDMI screen sounds better when possible).

Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct? For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 05:55:27 PM
Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct?

I certainly can't say that definitively. Pros and non-pros both represent a big chunk of the users, as do rental houses, institutional, and special applications. It's a much more diverse market segment than most individual photographers get to see. Yesterday I spoke with a half dozen photographers (architecture, landscape, 2xfashion, portrait, editorial) about purchases/upgrades to the IQ260/IQ280. Today I worked with the City Hall of a major city on evaluating using a back on a copy stand for capturing a large vault's worth of architectural blue prints from the early 1900s. On Thursday I'm training a group of professors/students at a major university how to use a digital back on a microscope to capture slides of monkey brains for rapid medical diagnosis.

Certainly it's fair to say the non-pro segment has grown with the advent of digital backs which are easier to use in the field. There were very few non-pro users of the tether-only-no-LCD H25 for instance. It's also fair to say that group is very well represented on this forum (not surprising given the name and heritage of the forum).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 06, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

[...]

For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

CMOS-style 30fps live view would be preferable yes.

But for many such users a [digital back on a tech camera with Schneider/Rodenstock wide angles and the ability to capture 60/80mp raw files in a single image with movement on every lens and a manner of shooting which some find to be very tactile/traditional] is preferable to a [dSLR platform].

So since today (and for the foreseeable future) you can't have both, this provides a way to make the digital platform more enjoyable/desirable/full-proof.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 06, 2013, 06:13:15 PM
CMOS-style 30fps live view would be preferable yes.

But for many such users a [digital back on a tech camera with Schneider/Rodenstock wide angles and the ability to capture 60/80mp raw files in a single image with movement on every lens and a manner of shooting which some find to be very tactile/traditional] is preferable to a [dSLR platform].

So since today (and for the foreseeable future) you can't have both, this provides a way to make the digital platform more enjoyable/desirable/full-proof.

Makes sense Doug, thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 06, 2013, 06:33:32 PM
The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

I can understand the value of wifi for the x% of IQ users shooting for clients in "studio" environment (indoors or outdoors) because it may help show them live images being shot (but a large HDMI screen sounds better when possible).

Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct? For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

Cheers,
Bernard


Hey Bernard,

I can tell you what I've learned about image review.

As much as we all say we want to "feel" the shot in the viewfinder (and I did this for years with film)  once we got electronic previews from the small camera lcds, to 30" monitors and now monitors for clients and an I pad I put next to the camera . . .

I've found that nothing really shows you the image like seeing it large to larger.

After all our Canvas is really the computer.  Every image, even if your final goal is print, spends 99.9999999% of it's viewing time on a screen and the closer you can get to seeing it on an lcd Canvas the more you, or should I say "I" notice things.

Photography is a profession of woulda, coulda, shoulda and when I'm shooting fast, reviewing images on the back of my Canon, they're ok, I can see them, judge them, but once I put them on the screen I always find things I would like to have changed.

When I can slow down and tether to a larger screen and send the image to an I-pad I usually notice it on the set, rather than later.

After all if nobody needed to change anything after the shot, they're wouldn't be photoshop.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: stevenf on March 06, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
I am with Bernard - as a landscape photographer viewing the image on the back of the camera and using live view for critical focus would be my preferred choice. Of course, I am always interested in trying something new and willing to change. Already, I am hiking with 56 lbs of camera gear adding an ipad would just be more weights. I guess if you are the sort of landscape photographer that shoots from the road and does not hike for miles than this may not matter and the larger screen would be great.

Steven
http://www.friedmanphoto.com (http://www.friedmanphoto.com)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: JohnCox123 on March 06, 2013, 07:30:41 PM
Will I be able to integrate these backs into (self published) iOS applets?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 06, 2013, 07:31:03 PM
Thanks Doug,

Great information as usual.

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 06, 2013, 08:42:35 PM
1.  Does the wi-fi signal go to more than one Ipad?  This to me is really important as 1/2 the projects we do have multiple "eyes" that want/need to see.

No. On launch day it will only work with one iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch. It's possible that they may implement the ability to have a second device connect, but the second device would have limited capability (e.g. maybe it couldn't zoom to 100% or maybe it could only show thumbnails).



Doug and BC... how about something like this.

Have one iPad that is the one that communicates to the back and then have this iPad forward (broadcast) what you are looking at.
This way the back would only have to "deal" with one iPad.
You could even do this in a manner that only what the person on the main iPad decides want is to be made available to the other iPads.

You could even make the main iPad store what is viewed on it in a session and make that available for viewing on the other iPads without
having to "bother" the back again.

I imagine that viewing files that are on iPad from the back might interfere with capture, so keeping the rest of the crew away from accessing the back
would be a good thing.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gerald.d on March 06, 2013, 11:35:03 PM
Fred got their first, but presumably you could use AirPlay to mirror the iPad screen to an Apple TV.

For a Mac, you can use something like Reflector, and then mirror to multiple other computers.

Not sure if there's a way to mirror to multiple iOS devices, but I'd be amazed if there wasn't something out there already that can do this.

/edit

According to this article (http://www.macstories.net/reviews/mirroring-multiple-ios-devices-to-a-mac-comparing-airserver-and-reflection/), you can mirror an iOS device, through Air Display (http://avatron.com/apps/air-display) running on a Mac, to another iOS device.

Time for some reading up on this I think to understand the potential :)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gazwas on March 07, 2013, 03:36:13 AM
I am with Bernard - as a landscape photographer viewing the image on the back of the camera and using live view for critical focus would be my preferred choice.

However, the prerequisite to shooting MFD is not just landscape photography and I find it amazing that some people are unhappy with Wifi intergration and think it pointless? ?

Sooting interiors on a Tech camera with a huge iPad preview screen attached to the tripod will not only make my life much easier but if clients are on set it will be very impressive. I can hear then now - "What no cables.... wow". I say Nice work P1.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: MrSmith on March 07, 2013, 05:13:48 AM
Will it do stepped focussing (from the phone/iPad)?  That would be a useful feature for stacking. It's already working for 35mm dslr's.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: torger on March 07, 2013, 06:02:16 AM
I agree that a large screen makes you see things which are not visible on smaller previews back on a MFDB or on a DSLR. Depth of field issues for example.

It's thinkable for me to hike with a tablet to get that large screen when doing landscape photography, but not with any iOS products, those are *not* for outdoor use. They absolutely suck concerning reliability in any sort of weather or heat or cold. The android tablet market is much more diverse and open, there are hardened android tablets for outdoor use for example, so I think it is a bit unfortunate that only Apple products are supported by the IQ2. The Apple products are "cooler" and more desirable by the general public though, so to impress clients I guess it is the right choice.

This tablet for example: http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/06/fujitsu-stylistic-m702-hands-on/ I'd rather trust out in the field than an iPad.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 07, 2013, 06:23:01 AM
However, the prerequisite to shooting MFD is not just landscape photography and I find it amazing that some people are unhappy with Wifi intergration and think it pointless? ?

I don't believe anyone here wrote wifi was pointless as an IQ back feature.

I just wrote that it doesn't contribute to making these backs more appealing for my landscape applications.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: julienlanoo on March 07, 2013, 12:34:08 PM
yeah wifi is a FANTASTIC idea,

hoping it could do file transfer correctly in the future :) :p
( as Canon's option was SH**) mmmmhh no coffee cups broken anymore by tripping over cables.. :)
No 1000h calls to Apple to repair a laptop screen, :) mmmhh heaven !!

Just some "gainsbourg" in the studio and the click beep from camera and flashes
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: mmbma on March 07, 2013, 03:38:33 PM
For me the deicision is between 260 or 280. I think Phase priced this one so accurately that the decision is truly difficult. I personaly don't NEED the long exposure feature. It's nice to have and will allow me to experiment with more things, but to be honest I never found the P65+ exposure length to be lacking.

So, 14k for the IQ260 or 17.5K for a IQ280? I suspect the 260 will outsell the 280 due to this "must have" feature to certain photographers, while the IQ280 is less of an evolution from the 180. Perhaps in 2 years the two backs would be of the saime price on second hand market? Although Phase will always give a higher trade in value for the 280 backs when upgrade time comes.

Decisions decisions. 3.5k for extra 20M pixels?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 07, 2013, 03:49:39 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that the x60 series has a sensor that is ever so slightly larger than the x80 series, yielding a hair more image area.  It's only 0.2mm on the long side, but for me that means that every so often I don't have to go to the next wider lens for that little bit extra image.  This plays out much more critically in Architecture than, say... Landscapes or Fashion.

It seems I've always got my camera against the wall wishing I could go to the 55 but stuck with the 43.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gazwas on March 07, 2013, 04:34:23 PM
Decisions decisions. 3.5k for extra 20M pixels?

And a heap load of headache with certain tech lenses....... No contest IMO.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Ken Doo on March 07, 2013, 08:14:03 PM
And a heap load of headache with certain tech lenses....... No contest IMO.

Nah, no heap load headaches.  It's just means a heap load of (more) money to buy certain tech (Rodenstock) lenses.   ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Marlyn on March 08, 2013, 12:29:45 AM
The real question being why image review is needed in the field at all when shooting landscape...

I can understand the value of wifi for the x% of IQ users shooting for clients in "studio" environment (indoors or outdoors) because it may help show them live images being shot (but a large HDMI screen sounds better when possible).

Now, it appears to me that a majority of Phaseone customers are not shooting for clients in a pro environment. Is this assumption correct? For those guys (let's call them landscape shooters for the sake of discussion) isn't perfect focusing with live view a better solution? Light can be disapearing fast, why have to go through a focus accuracy check on an ipad you have to carry around in the field? Genuine question... I would really like to understand the use case.

Cheers,
Bernard


Good question Bernard.

As a user of Phase + Technical camera for landscape work,  I find the WiFi to iPad for the field to be a fascinating and likely very useful feature.  This is especially true if/when it supports liveView on the iPad as is planned.  (Although not in first release as Doug points out).

Unlike many, I find live view on the Phase to be extremely useful and I use it all the time.   It does require some effort with ND's, but like anything, once you have a system in place,  a shooting workflow, it becomes straightforward.  This, combined with the Focus Mask,  to me, is $$$.    I feel making this available on a larger screen (and where I don't have to contort myself behind the back at times to get a clear view) will be extremely valuable to me.

The iPad mini, which has recently become my new best friend (over the iPad 3), also makes this more viable, as it fits in a jacket pocket with ease.

I ordered the upgrade from 160 to 260 due to two features alone.   1. Long Exposure, 2. Wifi to the iPad.    These are what matter to ME and make it very attractive and I am pleased with what phase has done with the new backs.   As always, everyone else's millage may vary depending on your use case.

Note: I use a TECHNICAL camera exclusively for Medium Format.  Nothing in a DSLR range gives me the options this does which I find useful, so many of the other comparison features are not relevant to the way I want to work.   I own a wide range of DSLR's from various manufacturer,  but what ends up going into the field for landscapes, is the tech cam.     Including right now as I type this from Iceland, about to start a shoot.

All in all, it is a good time to be a photographer.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: rogerxnz on March 08, 2013, 01:07:15 AM
Will the Phase One improvements filter down or across to the Credo range?
Roger
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gazwas on March 08, 2013, 07:12:41 AM
I'd be very surprised with the IQ being the "premium" product line. A bit like how focus mask never made it across to the Credo I guess even though IQ/Credo share the same technology so is possible.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: design_freak on March 08, 2013, 12:15:29 PM
I read and wonder. Since we have wifi, the screen is not needed. Through this equipment could be more durable, use less energy ...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: MrSmith on March 08, 2013, 12:20:55 PM
Will it do stepped focussing (from the phone/iPad)?  That would be a useful feature for stacking. It's already working for 35mm dslr's.

Apolagies if this has been answered already but as 'remote control of the camera' is supported will you be able to control a phase camera/lens from a tablet/phone and do focus bracketing without touching the camera?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 08, 2013, 01:09:36 PM
The iPad mini, which has recently become my new best friend (over the iPad 3), also makes this more viable, as it fits in a jacket pocket with ease.

The iPad mini could make a great sidekick for the new IQ backs. Someone needs to make a folding loup so as to make viewing these tablets
out in the sun. I've made my own.... it's really nice to be able to check images while blocking out all outside light.


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 08, 2013, 01:17:16 PM
Apolagies if this has been answered already but as 'remote control of the camera' is supported will you be able to control a phase camera/lens from a tablet/phone and do focus bracketing without touching the camera?

No. Remote stepping of focus for focus bracketing will not be possible.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: MrSmith on March 08, 2013, 01:18:21 PM
Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 09, 2013, 11:53:12 PM
Thanks for clearing that up.

The Rollei Hy6 can in camera control focus for focus stacking if you need it in MF.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: vjbelle on March 10, 2013, 08:36:34 AM
After reading this entire post it seems that there is no change in the implementation of live view.  I had wished that there would be.  That is the real hurdle for Phase One.

Victor
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: torger on March 10, 2013, 12:17:52 PM
After reading this entire post it seems that there is no change in the implementation of live view.  I had wished that there would be.  That is the real hurdle for Phase One.

Is it? Despite being as "bad" as it is, isn't it still the best when compared to the other medium format brands? And if we take DSLRs into the equation I'm sure live view is not the real hurdle that makes many people choose the DSLR -- it is the cost.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Chris Barrett on March 10, 2013, 12:27:59 PM
You'll never see really workable Live View unless MFDB manufacturers move to CMOS sensors.  Is it desirable for them to do so, I don't know?  Here's a little chip primer (http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/knowledge-center/appnotes/ccd-vs-cmos/).  The fact that P1 and Blad haven't switched tells me there must be great hurdles to implementing MFDB CMOS...

Hell, if there wasn't, RED would have done it already.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 10, 2013, 03:01:15 PM
Hi,

That chip primer is a bit old, and it is coming from one of the firms mainly producing CCDs.

My guess is that CCDs are manufactured in simple inexpensive processess. CMOS needs more precision, better fabs and more layers, because it has much more active components.

The article from DALSA gives some intresting insight:
"First, leverage is key. At the risk of stating the obvious, imagers that are already on the market will cost much less than a full custom imager, regardless of whether it is a CMOS or a CCD imager. If customization is necessary, unless the change is minor, it is generally cheaper to develop a custom CCD than it is to develop a custom CMOS imager. CMOS imager development is generally more expensive because CMOS uses more expensive deep submicron masks. There is also much more circuitry to design in a CMOS device. As a result, even in applications where a custom CMOS imager clearly has better performance, the value proposition can still favor a custom CCD." So they say that small scale economics favor CCD, because it is simpler to manufacture.

The only advantage I can with CCDs I can see would be a better fill factor, but that would really take a frame transfer design ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device#Frame_transfer_CCD) , which I don't think CCDs in MFDBs are.

Small sensor cameras were mostly CCD devices, it is only now that they convert to CMOS. DSLRs were mostly CCD and first with conversion to CMOS did they really get competitive. Early Nikons, Minoltas and so on used CCD devices, but once Sony and Nikon switched to CMOS development has been fast.

My guess is that the main reason MFDB vendors use CCD is availability of sensors in the corresponding sizes. That said, I still think they are excellent devices, and there is a lot of innovation in software and usability.

Best regards
Erik


You'll never see really workable Live View unless MFDB manufacturers move to CMOS sensors.  Is it desirable for them to do so, I don't know?  Here's a little chip primer (http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/knowledge-center/appnotes/ccd-vs-cmos/).  The fact that P1 and Blad haven't switched tells me there must be great hurdles to implementing MFDB CMOS...

Hell, if there wasn't, RED would have done it already.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 10, 2013, 04:36:13 PM
Yes, suffice it to say that DxO's definition of and method of measuring dynamic range is not the same as Phase One.

Hi,

You are wrong both;-) DxO actually gives a DR of 11.89 for the IQ 180, the higher figure is coming from DxO presenting data in "print mode" that is normalized to 8 mpixels. So an IQ 180 image scaled down to 8 MP would have a DR of 13.56. I don't know which DALSA senor the IQ180 uses and couldn't find the corresponding data sheet, but most modern DALSA sensors are about 70 DB which 11.6 EV, pretty close to the DxO figures.

If you get a Datasheet from DALSA I would expect it to say > 70 DB or even 71.3 DB (11.89 EV)-

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 10, 2013, 05:23:55 PM
I'm sure live view is not the real hurdle that makes many people choose the DSLR -- it is the cost.


I don't know the science behind these cameras, but I can see the results.

Personally I see a slight to major difference in color detail between ccd and cmos.

I don't or really care if it comes from format size, sensor, filter or lenses, I just see it.

Medium format seems less global in color that my 35mm colors, but that's not always good, depends on what you shoot, depends on the brand, depends on the post production.

If I'm going to dive deep into a file from my ccd cameras I will see every bit of slight discoloration in a face or skin, or even the whole scene.  

That's the downside, but the upside is if I need all the colors to work a file deep then the ccd is easier for me to get there than cmos.

Not to go of topic but . . .

Man if you could just get the best of both formats, medium format and 35mm you'd probably really have something.

I tried the one camera fits all routine, for stills and for video and I don't think it's there.  

Still cameras that really go to high speed like the Canon 1dx are much different in operation than a Nikon d800, much, much different than a digital back and much different than a dedicated digital video camera.

The bottom line to me is you can do just about everything with a 35mm cmos, camera, you just can't do everything perfectly.

When the Pentax came out, I thought finally medium format kind of woke up to the new realities professional photographers faced.  

Cost close to the 1 series Canons, big viewfinder for manual focus, in camera jpegs for better lcd viewing, quick web galleries, 4:3 vertical crop, reasonably priced lenses.

I've gone into a store to buy that camera 5 times and always walked off.  Just two slow on write speeds and the new lenses are very expensive and there is no professional tethering option.

For some the write times won't matter, but next week we shoot for an apparel client on three locations, 29 set ups per day.  Not 29 shots, 29 setups.

Given that this project is sunlight dependent, so  8 hours of shooting, if everything goes smooth.  That's 17 minutes a session.  Seriously 17 minutes.

Now add in the wait time on a Pentax previews along with the difficulty in tethering and if you lose 90 seconds to 2 minutes a session, that is 3 shots that don't get done.

Add the fact that almost every project we do requires some video and the compression of time is evident.

Add the cost of starting up with a new platform like the pentax and 4 new lenses and one body is slightly under 20 grand.  With backup body add another 9.

Going to a new Phase back is nearly $40,000 using my current contax platform,  and though the improvements of the IQ are attractive, $40,000 in todays world of every shrinking budgets is a lot and in my case, that doesn't improve my camera platform.

It doesn't take a genius to see why the d800 is attractive.  I'd buy a d800 because I own all the new Nikon glass and the camera body compared to the costs I've just mentioned is virtually free.  The problem I have is I don't think the look of the Nikon glass is very pretty.

(That's just a personal opinion).

To me the company that could rock the world is Pentax, if they up their game.   I don't think they need a wholesale change, just a one step improvement in write speed, slightly better 800 to 1600 iso processing and a tethering solution that's robust.

Or maybe Leaf.   If Leaf plays off the Phase tech and can come in at a better price point with the mamiya and Leaf all in one combination they have an opening.

Or, maybe Hasselblad if they take their 40mpx camera, amortize the price down to compete at Pentax levels, they could be a solution.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Rob C on March 10, 2013, 05:44:25 PM
"Given that this project is sunlight dependent, so  8 hours of shooting, if everything goes smooth.  That's 17 minutes a session.  Seriously 17 minutes."


BC, you are going to give yourself a heart attack.

I couldn't have worked at that pace even with a girl with no clothes at all; it's a ticket to a pine box.

You have got to think about your health - both physical and mental - and hope that clients can come to their senses too. Nothing is worth having a client eat your health: they just get a new snapper, you can't get a new self. There's coffee out there - smell it before it's too late.

Rob C

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 10, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
Hi BC,

It seems Hasselblad prices go down, H4D-40 is now 15,999 at B&H, the price even includes a camera and a viewfinder. Also, you get a 20$ rebate on Photoshop Elements, that is a really good price!

If you feel that you need something exclusive there is the H4D-40 Ferrari Edition that ads some nice color and an 80/2.8 lens for a mere 13,500$ extra, the packaging is a very advanced one even if the camera is not.

Best regards
Erik





I don't know the science behind these cameras, but I can see the results.

Personally I see a slight to major difference in color detail between ccd and cmos.

I don't or really care if it comes from format size, sensor, filter or lenses, I just see it.

Medium format seems less global in color that my 35mm colors, but that's not always good, depends on what you shoot, depends on the brand, depends on the post production.

If I'm going to dive deep into a file from my ccd cameras I will see every bit of slight discoloration in a face or skin, or even the whole scene.  

That's the downside, but the upside is if I need all the colors to work a file deep then the ccd is easier for me to get there than cmos.

Not to go of topic but . . .

Man if you could just get the best of both formats, medium format and 35mm you'd probably really have something.

I tried the one camera fits all routine, for stills and for video and I don't think it's there.  

Still cameras that really go to high speed like the Canon 1dx are much different in operation than a Nikon d800, much, much different than a digital back and much different than a dedicated digital video camera.

The bottom line to me is you can do just about everything with a 35mm cmos, camera, you just can't do everything perfectly.

When the Pentax came out, I thought finally medium format kind of woke up to the new realities professional photographers faced.  

Cost close to the 1 series Canons, big viewfinder for manual focus, in camera jpegs for better lcd viewing, quick web galleries, 4:3 vertical crop, reasonably priced lenses.

I've gone into a store to buy that camera 5 times and always walked off.  Just two slow on write speeds and the new lenses are very expensive and there is no professional tethering option.

For some the write times won't matter, but next week we shoot for an apparel client on three locations, 29 set ups per day.  Not 29 shots, 29 setups.

Given that this project is sunlight dependent, so  8 hours of shooting, if everything goes smooth.  That's 17 minutes a session.  Seriously 17 minutes.

Now add in the wait time on a Pentax previews along with the difficulty in tethering and if you lose 90 seconds to 2 minutes a session, that is 3 shots that don't get done.

Add the fact that almost every project we do requires some video and the compression of time is evident.

Add the cost of starting up with a new platform like the pentax and 4 new lenses and one body is slightly under 20 grand.  With backup body add another 9.

Going to a new Phase back is nearly $40,000 using my current contax platform,  and though the improvements of the IQ are attractive, $40,000 in todays world of every shrinking budgets is a lot and in my case, that doesn't improve my camera platform.

It doesn't take a genius to see why the d800 is attractive.  I'd buy a d800 because I own all the new Nikon glass and the camera body compared to the costs I've just mentioned is virtually free.  The problem I have is I don't think the look of the Nikon glass is very pretty.

(That's just a personal opinion).

To me the company that could rock the world is Pentax, if they up their game.   I don't think they need a wholesale change, just a one step improvement in write speed, slightly better 800 to 1600 iso processing and a tethering solution that's robust.

Or maybe Leaf.   If Leaf plays off the Phase tech and can come in at a better price point with the mamiya and Leaf all in one combination they have an opening.

Or, maybe Hasselblad if they take their 40mpx camera, amortize the price down to compete at Pentax levels, they could be a solution.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 10, 2013, 07:25:49 PM
Is it? Despite being as "bad" as it is, isn't it still the best when compared to the other medium format brands? And if we take DSLRs into the equation I'm sure live view is not the real hurdle that makes many people choose the DSLR -- it is the cost.

Probably for some people. As far as I am concerned I would frankly still pick my D800 over a phase/hassy for landscape work... even if the backs were given to me free of charge.

That is the case without a single hesitation for images where stitching is doable, but probably also the case for generic landscape outings where many of my favourire images are shot in pre dawn light where my eyes simply cannot focus a camera accurately without the help of live view.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ryandutch on March 10, 2013, 07:41:45 PM
not when you want to use it on a technical camera it doesn't.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 10, 2013, 09:25:46 PM
Hey Rob,

How bout not putting out the bad Ju Ju.

I thought you English were tuff.

My wife's from London and she's the toughest person I know.

Maybe it's cause your from the North . . . right?  (insert smiley face)

Hey man, there are two ways to do life.  Accept it or go home.  I accept it and in a strange way kind of dig it, because our schedule separates the amateurs from the pros.

I have the best crew I've had in my career and they work with surgical precision.  To complete what's coming up next week, we will never look hurried, never look panicked.

Anyway, I'm not retirement age and if I was I still wouldn't want to quit.

When I was 25 I had two billion photos in me and not enough time to do them.  

Heck in a week I think of a million more.

Really the most stressful part of our life isn't shoot days.  

Shoot days are like a vacation.

It's pre production, which is huge, post production which is huge, but behind that it's the biz and the politics.

Everyday I get a request for a file, a retouching change, a video edit, repurposing of data.

Then there gig your doing for an agency and the client gets involved, or the direct gig you have from the client and the agency gets involved.

Or the 4 revised estimates, (minimum), or the creative treatments you do six times (minimum).

Add to that we work everywhere so today I get a request from Australia for an edit (Sunday), last week I was doing concept changes at 4am (LA times with a client in Munich).

I'm not complaining cause I'm working and I like working.

I need purpose, I need a deadline, I need a reason.

The industry changed

I get it and changed with it, but it's not as bad as people think.

Just different.

IMO

BC


Bernhard,

If someone offers you a $40,000 back and you don't take it, give me a call.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: tsjanik on March 10, 2013, 10:03:51 PM


.............When the Pentax came out, I thought finally medium format kind of woke up to the new realities professional photographers faced.  

Cost close to the 1 series Canons, big viewfinder for manual focus, in camera jpegs for better lcd viewing, quick web galleries, 4:3 vertical crop, reasonably priced lenses.

I've gone into a store to buy that camera 5 times and always walked off.  Just two slow on write speeds and the new lenses are very expensive and there is no professional tethering option.....................


BC


BC :

Any reason you can't use two at the same time?  Serious question.

Tom
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 11, 2013, 12:48:27 AM
Bernard,


Doug has some postings on the issue.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75145.msg599955#msg599955

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75145.msg599887#msg599887

I also think that  Doug mentioned using a tilt calculator.

One thing I know that I have problems focusing on ground glass, but I have corrective eye glasses that doesn't make live easier.

LV really helps, if subject is not moving to fast. I use it all the time, specially long lenses.

Best regards
Erik


Hum... Focusing 4x5 optimally in low light with movements applied was already a nightmare even with the best GG and cameras featuring assymetric tilt, I am wondering how you guys do it with much higher density devices.

Pre-calibration is hardly a solution when tilt comes in the picture, which is the main value of tech cameras in my view.

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 11, 2013, 02:56:58 AM
Hey Rob,

How bout not putting out the bad Ju Ju.

I thought you English were tuff.

My wife's from London and she's the toughest person I know.

Maybe it's cause your from the North . . . right?  (insert smiley face)

Hey man, there are two ways to do life.  Accept it or go home.  I accept it and in a strange way kind of dig it, because our schedule separates the amateurs from the pros.

I have the best crew I've had in my career and they work with surgical precision.  To complete what's coming up next week, we will never look hurried, never look panicked.

Anyway, I'm not retirement age and if I was I still wouldn't want to quit.

When I was 25 I had two billion photos in me and not enough time to do them.  

Heck in a week I think of a million more.

Really the most stressful part of our life isn't shoot days.  

Shoot days are like a vacation.

It's pre production, which is huge, post production which is huge, but behind that it's the biz and the politics.

Everyday I get a request for a file, a retouching change, a video edit, repurposing of data.

Then there gig your doing for an agency and the client gets involved, or the direct gig you have from the client and the agency gets involved.

Or the 4 revised estimates, (minimum), or the creative treatments you do six times (minimum).

Add to that we work everywhere so today I get a request from Australia for an edit (Sunday), last week I was doing concept changes at 4am (LA times with a client in Munich).

I'm not complaining cause I'm working and I like working.

I need purpose, I need a deadline, I need a reason.

The industry changed

I get it and changed with it, but it's not as bad as people think.

Just different.

IMO

BC


Bernhard,

If someone offers you a $40,000 back and you don't take it, give me a call.



29 setups a day and you call it a vacation..... sounds pretty miserable especially if your other days are worse.
Is it really worth it? There is a lot more to life that photos. It's particularly ironic that quite a bit of what you shoot
is called lifestyle... happy relaxed people.

I second Rob's comment. No point ending up in a pine box even if you've worked so much that it's a mahogany
box instead of pine.

Personally I found my workaholic period to be my least productive period of my life. Dedicating a lot of time to different
things makes all of them more enjoyable.

Each to his own... we all have our addictions... I kitesurfed a few to many hours today... it was bliss.. Malibu was beautiful
today from the Ocean. Well I'm off for my daily midnight hike in the Santa Monica Mountains. A half hour of ocean air before sleep.
No client is going to keep me up till 4am. You know unless your client runs a sweat shop he'll be OK with you getting a bit of sleep.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gazwas on March 11, 2013, 04:13:37 AM
29 setups a day and you call it a vacation..... sounds pretty miserable especially if your other days are worse.
Is it really worth it? There is a lot more to life that photos. It's particularly ironic that quite a bit of what you shoot
is called lifestyle... happy relaxed people.

I second Rob's comment. No point ending up in a pine box even if you've worked so much that it's a mahogany
box instead of pine.

Personally I found my workaholic period to be my least productive period of my life. Dedicating a lot of time to different
things makes all of them more enjoyable.

Each to his own... we all have our addictions... I kitesurfed a few to many hours today... it was bliss.. Malibu was beautiful
today from the Ocean. Well I'm off for my daily midnight hike in the Santa Monica Mountains. A half hour of ocean air before sleep.
No client is going to keep me up till 4am. You know unless your client runs a sweat shop he'll be OK with you getting a bit of sleep.


Fred, that has to be the most inspirational comment I've ever seen you write and probably I've ever seen posted in this forum for as long as I can remember.

I feel BC's pain after just finishing a 2am finish followed by a 6:30am start.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Jeffery Salter on March 11, 2013, 04:29:28 AM
BC.  Simply Bravo.  Why play small?  Pursue your passion.  It's a funny thing about photography..... You actually have to do it, to be good at it.  

Fred.  I would love to see some of your pictures from your "work-a-holic" period.  Why don't you have a website? Why do you call BC's love of his art and dedication to his craft an addiction?    

By the way... We all end up in a pine box.  So why let fear control us?  Why let our fears control how others run there lives?  

And really taking midnite walks sounds lonely.  Sounds really deep. Did you ever read about Buddhism?  There is a tenet about...going to the mountaintop for enlightment.  And it basically says that the enlightment you find on the mountaintop is that  which you brought with you.

Regards,
Jeffery


Each to his own... we all have our addictions... I kitesurfed a few to many hours today... it was bliss.. Malibu was beautiful
today from the Ocean. Well I'm off for my daily midnight hike in the Santa Monica Mountains. A half hour of ocean air before sleep.


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: torger on March 11, 2013, 05:07:55 AM
The ground glass has got more bashing on this forum than it deserves. All it takes is a strong loupe and some confidence ;). Oh, well seriously, it can be a problem depending on your eyesight status, but I believe that more can work with it successfully than one might think. The biggest mistake I see is that people use too weak loupes. I use a 20x.

As a view camera user (Linhof Techno) I actually don't see the lack of live view to be that problematic for actual picture making. However the view camera would of course be more elegant and lighter (and cheaper) if I could ditch the sliding back and focus on the digital back directly.

As a feature I'd desire lower color cast more though, and I'm afraid that CMOS tech would push the performance in the exact opposite direction (not sure though).

It should also be said that part of the difficulty in focusing is not actually dimness or ground glass, but that the widest aperture is relatively small, i e an f/5.6 is harder to focus than a f/1.4 due to the softer focus peaking. That is a property that we cannot move away from as wide aperture lens designs would destroy many of the properties that makes up the quality of large format digital. So it will always be a bit more difficult to work with, but not *too* difficult.

Bernard,


Doug has some postings on the issue.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75145.msg599955#msg599955

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75145.msg599887#msg599887

I also think that  Doug mentioned using a tilt calculator.

One thing I know that I have problems focusing on ground glass, but I have corrective eye glasses that doesn't make live easier.

LV really helps, if subject is not moving to fast. I use it all the time, specially long lenses.

Best regards
Erik


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Stefan.Steib on March 11, 2013, 06:57:20 AM
Depends on the camera I´d say
On the HCam You can use either Arcbody/SWC/Acumatte viewfinder adapter, or what I use now a Hy6 screen with Grid/split screen and very fine grain.
Focusing is top exact with this and with the 4x loupe we provide with the camera the most exact I know till now.
And as Torger already said: combined with the much brighter  35mm lenses 2,8/3,5 or even better you can hit focus absolutely on target.

Regards
Stefan
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Ken Doo on March 11, 2013, 09:26:15 AM
BC.  Simply Bravo.  Why play small?  Pursue your passion.  It's a funny thing about photography..... You actually have to do it, to be good at it.  

Fred.  I would love to see some of your pictures from your "work-a-holic" period.  Why don't you have a website? Why do you call BC's love of his art and dedication to his craft an addiction?    

By the way... We all end up in a pine box.  So why let fear control us?  Why let our fears control how others run there lives?  

And really taking midnite walks sounds lonely.  Sounds really deep. Did you ever read about Buddhism?  There is a tenet about...going to the mountaintop for enlightment.  And it basically says that the enlightment you find on the mountaintop is that  which you brought with you.

Regards,
Jeffery

+1.

You've found your calling in life when work is play and play is work. 

I'd rather do something I'm passionate about than struggle everyday----or gripe about something incessantly.  When that happens, it's time to walk away.  Nobody likes a nattering nay-bob of negativity.

ken  :-*


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 11, 2013, 09:33:57 AM
The ground glass has got more bashing on this forum than it deserves. All it takes is a strong loupe and some confidence ;). Oh, well seriously, it can be a problem depending on your eyesight status, but I believe that more can work with it successfully than one might think. The biggest mistake I see is that people use too weak loupes. I use a 20x.

As a view camera user (Linhof Techno) I actually don't see the lack of live view to be that problematic for actual picture making. However the view camera would of course be more elegant and lighter (and cheaper) if I could ditch the sliding back and focus on the digital back directly.

It should also be said that part of the difficulty in focusing is not actually dimness or ground glass, but that the widest aperture is relatively small, i e an f/5.6 is harder to focus than a f/1.4 due to the softer focus peaking. That is a property that we cannot move away from as wide aperture lens designs would destroy many of the properties that makes up the quality of large format digital. So it will always be a bit more difficult to work with, but not *too* difficult.

In my experience the difficulty of ground glass focusing is more-than-expected difficult as you step up in resolution. Ground glass focusing a 22mp back vs. an 80mp back is a very different experience.

I also agree aperture matters: a Roddy f/4 lens is a good bit easier to focus than a Schneider f/5.6 lens.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: torger on March 11, 2013, 10:27:55 AM
In my experience the difficulty of ground glass focusing is more-than-expected difficult as you step up in resolution. Ground glass focusing a 22mp back vs. an 80mp back is a very different experience.

I also agree aperture matters: a Roddy f/4 lens is a good bit easier to focus than a Schneider f/5.6 lens.

The hardest part is to focus on a flat surface with a largish shooting aperture, say a painting on a wall at f/8 or even f/5.6. Then focusing errors is noted the most. At f/11 for 3D subjects it becomes drastically easier, simply because it is less visible exactly where the focus plane sits. It still is some element of skill to it though, one has to concentrate to make the best out of it and one gets better with training.

If one needs absolute safety one cannot beat high precision focusing rings with laser distance metering though. For indoor architecture the poor light + flat surface challenge arises often enough to make pancake camera with HPF desirable, but for landscape I would not have any trouble to do 80 megapixels with my Techno (Joe Cornish is one example of a pro photographer that actually does it).
Title: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: BJL on March 11, 2013, 10:57:00 AM
The ground glass has got more bashing on this forum than it deserves. All it takes is a strong loupe and some confidence ;).
A loupe does not completely overcome the fact that the secondary image that one sees scattered off the ground glass has distinctly less resolution than lenses delivers or sensors can record. From what I have read, the image coming from the "ground glass" (frosted plastic?) of a 35mm format SLR has resolution comparable to only about a 2MP sensor.  Presumably the OVF resolution is several times better for medium format, especially if the VF designs are still more oriented to manual focusing than modern 35mm format SLR viewfinders are, but I doubt than any OVF or view camera ground glass comes close to matching 60MP+ sensors.
Title: Re: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: torger on March 11, 2013, 11:43:31 AM
A loupe does not completely overcome the fact that the secondary image that one sees scattered off the ground glass has distinctly less resolution than lenses delivers or sensors can record. From what I have read, the image coming from the "ground glass" (frosted plastic?) of a 35mm format SLR has resolution comparable to only about a 2MP sensor.  Presumably the OVF resolution is several times better for medium format, especially if the VF designs are still more oriented to manual focusing than modern 35mm format SLR viewfinders are, but I doubt than any OVF or view camera ground glass comes close to matching 60MP+ sensors.

I've actually measured this on my Techno, and visible detail on the ground glass under magnification corresponds to about what you would see in an ~18 megapixel image in the 48x36mm area. So how is this enough for an 80 megapixel sensor? Since you work with small shooting apertures the DoF/diffraction masks the exact position of the focus plane so the focusing errors you do is masked, and in many types of scenes the exact position is actually not that important.

If you would pixel peep 80 megapixel f/2.8 portrait images focused on the eyeball manual focus on the ground glass would be near hopeless of course, but the view camera application is generally not that. If you actually do need the best precision in focus plane placement for a technical camera then high precision focusing ring is the answer (assuming you don't tilt). For MFD SLRs there's phase-detect autofocus.

Shooting style shifts a bit depending on what the camera is good at. I use tilt a lot (which for many scenes makes focusing more forgiving by the way), many pancake camera users use focus stacking a lot but rarely tilt.

At some point it becomes a problem though. When you get very high resolution, say 200+ megapixels and don't want to kill detail with diffraction, image making for the type of landscape subjects I like to shoot becomes unpractical. I don't like focusing stacking, I want to capture it all in one shot. I think f/11 is a good shooting aperture for landscape and MFD, and for that ground glass can certainly be adequate. But if we would like to focus stack several f/5.6 images to make the final image the ground glass is indeed obsolete (live view is not good for that either, again the high precision focusing ring is the answer).
Title: Re: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: FredBGG on March 11, 2013, 01:59:15 PM
I've actually measured this on my Techno, and visible detail on the ground glass under magnification corresponds to about what you would see in an ~18 megapixel image in the 48x36mm area. So how is this enough for an 80 megapixel sensor? Since you work with small shooting apertures the DoF/diffraction masks the exact position of the focus plane so the focusing errors you do is masked, and in many types of scenes the exact position is actually not that important.

Are you claiming that a ground glass focusing screen can resolve  9 or 10 microns...... ?

I can see peach fuzz in an 11 MP photo and heave never been able to see peach fuzz through and ground glass screen even with a Leica or Fuji loup.
Even on an 4x5 or 8x10 shooting with HMIs even with special focusing screens. Accute Matte or whatever. Not to mention that with a loup anywhere away from
the very center of the lens becomes way less clear unless using a very long lens.
Title: Re: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: FredBGG on March 11, 2013, 02:23:29 PM
At some point it becomes a problem though. When you get very high resolution, say 200+ megapixels and don't want to kill detail with diffraction, image making for the type of landscape subjects I like to shoot becomes unpractical. I don't like focusing stacking, I want to capture it all in one shot. I think f/11 is a good shooting aperture for landscape and MFD, and for that ground glass can certainly be adequate. But if we would like to focus stack several f/5.6 images to make the final image the ground glass is indeed obsolete (live view is not good for that either, again the high precision focusing ring is the answer).

How can a ground glass be just fine for an 80MP sensor and no good for a 200MP sensor that is a multi shot from a 50 MP sensor. The 80MP sensor actually only
has 36.81 % less resolution than a 200 MP MS and that is only if the lens still out resolves the 200MP capture.

(percentage difference going from 16,352 to 10,328)

I really don't see how the ground glass could be just fine for 80PM and obsolete for a 200MP image.

Also when it comes to focus stacking you only have to select a range of focusing. After that nothing is better than
remote control of focusing. Even a precision focusing ring means you have to touch the camera. You would need one hell of a camera stand to avoid moving
the sensor at a micron level.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on March 11, 2013, 02:25:24 PM
Bear in mind the base ISO of the long exposure is now ISO140 rather than ISO50 (as it was with the P45+). So if the P45+ required an hour for a given scene the IQ260 will only require 20 minutes, followed by a 20 minute dark frame - 20 minutes LESS than the hour the P45+ required just to do the capture (let along the dark frame).

Now if your goal is specifically to do time lapse or star trails, in which you only care about doing multiple exposures in a row with minimal gap (rather than getting enough light from a given scene for a good exposure) then the dark frame sucks. There are some work arounds for some situations; others it's a simple no-go.

Of the backs that don't require a dark frame the longest exposure specification is 256 seconds at ISO100. So for anyone who wants more than that in a digital back this is the best solution out there. You have to give them some credit for getting much more in the way of long exposure out of each sensor than anyone else has. If it doesn't work for your needs I totally understand, but that doesn't make it a "waste of time" for everyone; others will have other needs which this fits extremely well.

Now, why the dark frame can't be turned off for shorter exposures (e.g. 15 seconds) where it's conceivable that you could maybe get good quality without it - that does irk me a bit. I'll be speaking with R+D about the technology behind the IQ260 long exposure soon and will ask about this.

Hi Doug.
The argument that because the base exposure is greater doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. If I had to wait 1 hr I'd be pissed off. If I had to wait 20 minutes I'd be pissed off. If I had to wait 256 seconds I'd be pissed off.  :) For a lot of people who earn from photography it would be a waste of time. Grand if you are a hobbyist who has the luxury of doubling you're shoot time but I'm not paid to stand around. Obviously I'd have more time shooting my landscapes but in the first or last light of the day when a minute or 2 can make a difference in the type of light, I would go ballistic if I had to wait after each exposure. I mean why do they advertise the frame rate of the back when it is completely dependent on the exposure time on the view camera.

I love the look of the camera but this is the main reason why (and the issues with Schneider lenses) I wouldn't change to a Phase One System at the moment. When I read the 1hr exposure limit I almost had a hear attack. It would be ideal for a project I want to develop. Aw well
Title: Re: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 11, 2013, 03:33:14 PM
How can a ground glass be just fine for an 80MP sensor and no good for a 200MP sensor that is a multi shot from a 50 MP sensor. The 80MP sensor actually only
has 36.81 % less resolution than a 200 MP MS and that is only if the lens still out resolves the 200MP capture.

I don't think Torger was specifically referencing the H4D-200. I think he was using "200mp" as an abstract reference to "even higher resolution".

Also, I don't really want to get involved in a discussion of resolvable feature size on ground glass. I almost always fall back on the "try it yourself" argument but I think that especially applies to ground glass focusing. That said, I do want to point out that you don't actually need to have a resolveable feature size that matches the pixel size of the back you're using. When focusing most camera systems (of any kind/make/model) there is some range of focus travel in which the subject remains equally sharp in appearance. For some camera systems this range is quite miniscule (a Canon 5D3 with a 24-70m1 in my experience is like this) on other systems with more precise (read: higher barrel travel vs. lens movement) focus systems the range is quite large (e.g. and Arca Swiss R series with it's very large focus bayonet and fine-gearing). Whatever that range is, a very high-confidence estimation can be made that the perfect point of focus is half way through that looks-the-same focus range.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 11, 2013, 03:39:02 PM
The argument that because the base exposure is greater doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. If I had to wait 1 hr I'd be pissed off. If I had to wait 20 minutes I'd be pissed off. If I had to wait 256 seconds I'd be pissed off.  :) For a lot of people who earn from photography it would be a waste of time. Grand if you are a hobbyist who has the luxury of doubling you're shoot time but I'm not paid to stand around. Obviously I'd have more time shooting my landscapes but in the first or last light of the day when a minute or 2 can make a difference in the type of light, I would go ballistic if I had to wait after each exposure.

Well... ok. But no matter what you have to wait some period of time (e.g. a 2 minute exposure without a dark frame still requires you to stand around for 2 minutes doing nothing).

If you can take the shot in 2 minutes with Camera A, which only requires the main exposure time and you can take the same shot in 1.5 minutes with Camera B, does it really matter if Camera B was doing a dark frame during part of that time?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on March 11, 2013, 03:49:55 PM
Well... ok. But no matter what you have to wait some period of time (e.g. a 2 minute exposure without a dark frame still requires you to stand around for 2 minutes doing nothing).

If you can take the shot in 2 minutes with Camera A, which only requires the main exposure time and you can take the same shot in 1.5 minutes with Camera B, does it really matter if Camera B was doing a dark frame during part of that time?

Ah If I was taking a photo for example a panoramic photo consisting of 2 sets of images, that would have a huge difference. For example the light may change, clouds will have moved significantly many things may have changed. Ditto for a single view with under normal and over exposed exposures. Not everywhere in the world has nice blue skies for the entire day. For panoramic the light and clouds (if present must run smoothly from one side of the panoramic to the other)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: chrismuc on March 12, 2013, 01:40:06 AM
Doug, a question regarding the iPad resolution.

From my understanding, only the partial image which is actually viewed on the iPad will be converted in the IQ2 backs from raw to jpg and transmitted via Wifi to the iPad app. For an iPad mini and the older iPads that would be a partial image of 1024x768 pixel size. Is for an iPad retina an image of four times that pixel count = 2048x1536 pixel calculated and transmitted? If yes, does this cause a relevant delay compared to the 1024 iPads?

Thx Christoph
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 12, 2013, 01:58:36 AM
The argument that because the base exposure is greater doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. If I had to wait 1 hr I'd be pissed off. If I had to wait 20 minutes I'd be pissed off. 

The whole dark frame thing is a pain. One should also consider the reliability of the dark frame being effective.

When a dark frame is made there is the assumption that it will record the same noise that was recorded during the photo exposure.
However is this going to be the case. The fact that a dark frame has to be recorded right after taking the photo shot means that it will be an attempt at recording the same noise pattern.
Changes in temperature and other things that produce noise could alter the recorded noise.
If that were not the case then one should be able to simply use a previously saved dark shot file.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 12, 2013, 02:23:14 AM
The whole dark frame thing is a pain.


Fred.

Is this  theory or something you discovered in practice?

The only dark frames I've shot with seriousness are background plates with my M-8 Leica and they worked very well.

This image is a work in progress, soon to be a cinematic.

(http://spotsinthebox.com/sf_cinematic_start.jpg)

The Background was with the M8, the inserted photo my p30+ back.



Do you have any long exposure frames YOU shot with your Phase One back?

Do you have any compelling images you can show that you shot with any digital camera?



IMO

BC
Title: Re: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: torger on March 12, 2013, 02:41:35 AM
Are you claiming that a ground glass focusing screen can resolve  9 or 10 microns...... ?

Here's an actual photo:http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/img/dwcf-fs.png it's of the ground glass and the resulting 33 megapixel image. It's grainy, but you actually see the individual dashes on the mm-scale of the folding rule. The 18 megapixel estimation is no scientific measurement, and probably a little bit exaggerated, the point is that you see detail through the grain, just as with film.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 12, 2013, 02:45:02 AM
Hi BC,

Dark frame exposures are a pain weather you shoot Phase One or Sony. You wait for an extra exposure that is used to reduce thermal noise. If you are concerned about writes times on the Pentax you would also be concerned about dark frame exposures.

Now, dark frame exposures are for a reason. On some cameras you can disable, it is possible on Sony I don't know on Phase.

So, I'm with Fred on this one but I don't see it as matter of Phase vs. something else. It's PIA of digital.  With film we had reprocity failure, that was PIA of film.

Best regards
Erik


Fred.

Is this  theory or something you discovered in practice?

Do you have any long exposure frames YOU shot with your Phase One back?

Do you have any compelling images you can show that you shot with any digital camera?

IMO

BC
Title: Re: resolution limits of the secondary image scattered off the ground glass
Post by: torger on March 12, 2013, 02:48:50 AM
How can a ground glass be just fine for an 80MP sensor and no good for a 200MP sensor that is a multi shot from a 50 MP sensor.

With higher resolution you tend to want to shoot with larger apertures to avoid killing resolution with diffraction. With larger apertures and higher resolution the exact position of the focal plane becomes more clear when you pixel peep, i e you require higher precision. However, if you still choose to shoot at f/11 with you 200 megapixel back as you would with a 40-60 megapixel back, it will be okay. When/if pixels become cheap it can be a good idea actually, outresolving diffraction to minimize aliasing issues.

I think ground glass is good to f/11. If you want to shoot f/8 or f/5.6 it is too high risk to miss. If you do it only occasionally and shoot tethered it's okay anyway since you can see any miss on the computer and compensate, but if it is part of the main work I'd choose an Arca-Swiss RM3Di or Alpa and a laser distance meter.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: bcooter on March 12, 2013, 02:48:54 AM
Hi BC,

Dark frame exposures are a pain weather you shoot Phase One or Sony. You wait for an extra exposure that is used to reduce thermal noise. If you are concerned about writes times on the Pentax you would also be concerned about dark frame exposures.

Now, dark frame exposures are for a reason. On some cameras you can disable, it is possible on Sony I don't know on Phase.

So, I'm with Fred on this one but I don't see it as matter of Phase vs. something else. It's PIA of digital.  With film we had reprocity failure, that was PIA of film.

Best regards
Erik


I understand, I've only done 8 seconds on the Leica and for backgrounds haven't found it too much problem, though I rarely stitch.

My point is the theory of the dark frame possibly not working was mentioned by someone that never shows images they shot in those situations.

Thx.

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 12, 2013, 10:17:02 AM
Doug, a question regarding the iPad resolution.

From my understanding, only the partial image which is actually viewed on the iPad will be converted in the IQ2 backs from raw to jpg and transmitted via Wifi to the iPad app. For an iPad mini and the older iPads that would be a partial image of 1024x768 pixel size. Is for an iPad retina an image of four times that pixel count = 2048x1536 pixel calculated and transmitted? If yes, does this cause a relevant delay compared to the 1024 iPads?

That is correct.

However, Phase One is considering a button in Capture Pilot to push to drop the Retina iPad down to non-retina resolution. This would have two benefits:
- speed will increase by around a factor of 4
- when viewing at 100% the pixels will be easier to see (at Retina resolutions you may wish to slide to 200% to carefully evaluate the pixel-level detail/sharpness depending on your eye sight)

I'm anticipating the iPad Mini being the ideal balance of resolution, portability, and size. However, everyone's needs will vary.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on March 12, 2013, 10:40:32 AM
I have worked with Nikon, Canon and Phase all with long exposures, some totaling up to 55mm. 

Nikon and Canon on their higher end cameras offer a dark frame, both will allow you to turn it off.  When you stack, it's imperative to turn it off as the resulting dark frame will create a gap.  Gaps can be closed in software, but it's an added step that sometimes has trouble depending on the camera lens combination. 

It's always been my understanding that the dark frame is more to reduce "stuck Pixels" rather than traditional noise.   Stuck pixels will increase over time of exposure and can ruin a frame.  Some cameras will show them red, blue other pure white.  Either way, they have to be removed before you can run a stacking solution or just from a single long shot.  Your DSLR's are all CMOS and thus tend to be a bit less noisy on longer exposures.  You still have to watch for heat (both in camera from longer run times and ambient outdoor temps and humidity).

When shooting Canon or Nikon I really don't notice any noise difference with Long Exposure noise reduction turned on.  On a short stack say 2 min to 4 min, I will start to see a few stuck pixels over the course of a nights shoot, but nowhere near as many as when I do a single long exposure.   It's very easy to test this by taking two single long exposures, say 20 minutes, one with Dark Frame on, one without.  The image without LEN on will more than likely will show considerable stuck pixels, the other should be clean.  In the old days, before this was available, you always had to shoot one shot with the lens cap on of the same length of exposure then reduce the stuck pixels manually.  Never worked as well for me.  Also the longer a camera runs, 1 hour, 2 hours, etc. the more stuck pixels tend to show up and most times they are not in the same place each time, thus the need for the internal software (in camera) to remove them.   

Since the 5D MKII, Canon has allowed you to run the long noise in the background i.e. buffer.  So you could take usually 3 30 to 40 min long exposures before the buffer locked you out.  Nikon works just like Phase One (except you can't turn phase off), shoot 1 frame and you are locked out of the camera until the dark frame is written.  Before I shot all stacks I preferred Canon over Nikon for this simple reason, i.e. you could get a lot more done in one night before the camera buffered out.

Some of the raw converters can remove some of the stuck pixels, like LR, but I have only found this to work if the image capture is raw.  With a jpg, then they are truly stuck.  Since most people seem to still shoot jpgs I think this one of the reasons the large camera companies added this feature.

Phase one, with at least the P45+ seemed to do a bit more than just remove the stuck pixels and the dark frame that camera ran IMO was more critical to the end result.  Doug or others closer to design by Phase would know more about this. This is CCD and the Dark frame may be more critical to the end result. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on March 12, 2013, 11:01:36 AM
Hi BC,

Dark frame exposures are a pain weather you shoot Phase One or Sony. You wait for an extra exposure that is used to reduce thermal noise. If you are concerned about writes times on the Pentax you would also be concerned about dark frame exposures.

Now, dark frame exposures are for a reason. On some cameras you can disable, it is possible on Sony I don't know on Phase.

So, I'm with Fred on this one but I don't see it as matter of Phase vs. something else. It's PIA of digital.  With film we had reprocity failure, that was PIA of film.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik
I shoot on a Hasselblad back with a Cambo. You don't need to shoot a dark frame. I can squeeze  about 90 seconds out of the exposures on the view camera (Don't ask me how because the official limit is 60 seconds :D) After that it times out. If the exposure is correct than noise is not an issue as are stuck pixels. ( Occasionally I get the odd one)

This was the reason I went with the Hasselblad. Doug made the argument that the limit on the new IQ260 is much longer and that is true but about 60% of my photos are between the 1 second and 90 second range. The rest are faster and obviously if I could shoot longer that would open some lovely new doors of opportunity. My point is the vast majority of the time I would be able to shoot images within the 90 second limit each time not having to double my waiting time for my exposures.

Doug made a very valid point that it would be a good idea if Phase were able to limit the use of the dark exposure after a certain exposure time, so that say it's not needed until after a minute or 2. That should be possible. If Hasselblad can do than I don't see why Phase One can't do it. That would move the goal posts for me ( I have to test the H5D 4D or H5D 60 yet to see if there is an issue with the Schneider lenes also and I'll post my findings. That is the other stumbling block  :))
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: MrSmith on March 12, 2013, 12:33:34 PM

Doug made a very valid point that it would be a good idea if Phase were able to limit the use of the dark exposure after a certain exposure time, so that say it's not needed until after a minute or 2. That should be possible. If Hasselblad can do than I don't see why Phase One can't do it.

they don't always do what the end user wants.
Hblad and the HY cameras both do focus stacking but the new phase backs/cameras/software do not. surely these kind of features would be seen as essential if all the competition have enabled it? 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on March 12, 2013, 12:36:23 PM
they don't always do what the end user wants.
Hblad and the HY cameras both do focus stacking but the new phase backs/cameras/software do not. surely these kind of features would be seen as essential if all the competition have enabled it? 

I would say that the ability to shoot images without having to double the exposure time is a fundamental need for most photographers don't you think ???
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Enda Cavanagh on March 12, 2013, 12:39:44 PM
By the way Gary. I love your shots of the mounds of coal or slag (not sure which)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: CryptoMuseum on March 12, 2013, 02:10:58 PM
Doug: What exactly does this mean?

Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series

What delivery time do you predict for IQ280 (Contax)?

What is the upgrade cost, my IQ180 is like new, only a few 1000 exposures and has the Plus Package wty?

Kind Regards,


Jon
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: MrSmith on March 12, 2013, 02:48:19 PM
I would say that the ability to shoot images without having to double the exposure time is a fundamental need for most photographers don't you think ???

Very much so.
Thanks for the comments (I think it's coal being shipped)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: lance_schad on March 12, 2013, 03:16:36 PM
Doug: What exactly does this mean?

Achromatic Has Come to the IQ2 Series

What delivery time do you predict for IQ280 (Contax)?

What is the upgrade cost, my IQ180 is like new, only a few 1000 exposures and has the Plus Package wty?

Kind Regards,


Jon

The official upgrade cost for an IQ180 to IQ280 with Value Added Warranty is $15,990.
You get a new 60 month warranty when upgrading from Value Added Warranty.
From what we have heard about ship times for the new IQ2 series is June timeframe. From past experience Phase One has started shipping the Phase/Mamiya platform followed by the others.
Lance
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 12, 2013, 06:13:11 PM
Do the IQ260 and IQ280 have live view over USB3?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: sgilbert on March 12, 2013, 06:53:21 PM
Gee, think Fred's in the market for a Phase back?   :-\
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Gel on March 12, 2013, 07:23:00 PM
The official upgrade cost for an IQ180 to IQ280 with Value Added Warranty is $15,990.

These figures scare me. Does it come with a free unicorn?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: JV on March 16, 2013, 01:54:04 PM
Once more the Phase One website is not clear on whether the H4X is supported or not, it only lists the H1 and H2...

I would assume that it is supported given that it was supported by the IQ1 and Credo backs was well...?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 16, 2013, 03:16:58 PM
Once more the Phase One website is not clear on whether the H4X is supported or not, it only lists the H1 and H2...

I would assume that it is supported given that it was supported by the IQ1 and Credo backs was well...?

H4X is supported.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 17, 2013, 04:53:53 AM
Do the IQ260 and IQ280 have live view over USB3?

Doug responded on the USB3 beta thread....

Capturing over USB is supported now.

Live View over USB is forthcoming.

This is the case for both the IQ1 and IQ2.

So for now you are limited to live view on the digital back itself, or on a computer via firewire or thunderbolt (using the firewire adapter).

So for now live view over USB3 on the computer is not possible for either IQ1 series or IQ3 series.

However he said that live view can work on the back while tethered with USB3. Should tide people over till it's implemented over USB3.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: PeterLH on March 26, 2013, 04:08:59 AM
Does anyone out there know what the noise is like at 3200 between the 260 and 280?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 26, 2013, 06:57:02 AM
Does anyone out there know what the noise is like at 3200 between the 260 and 280?

I just shot a wedding with the IQ260, including many images at iso1600 and 3200. Shoot me an email and I can send you a few.

Based on the new sensor technology of the 260 and based on the 160 vs 180 performance as well as 160 vs 260 performance I would expect a modest advantage in pixel level quality of the 260 above the 280 when at very high iso, albeit with modestly lower resolution which would partially offset that difference (as the grain/noise will be slightly smaller at any given print size). At very low ISO I expect the opposite: the 280 with modestly more dynamic range and IQ.  However I can only speculate until public prototypes or production units of the 280 ship.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: abiggs on March 26, 2013, 08:36:34 AM
Greetings from Iceland! Here is a 4-minute exposure from the IQ260 from Skógafoss waterfall, taken yesterday.

(http://www.andybiggs.com/Misc/Biggs_IQ260.jpg)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Ken R on March 27, 2013, 07:15:40 PM
Stunning Image thanks for sharing
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 30, 2013, 10:49:14 PM
Possible USB3 wirekless solution for IQ1 series backs?

http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/img/dwcf-fs.png (http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/img/dwcf-fs.png)

Modified code would be needed, but could be an option
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Pics2 on March 31, 2013, 09:11:56 AM
Possible USB3 wirekless solution for IQ1 series backs?

http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/img/dwcf-fs.png (http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/img/dwcf-fs.png)

Modified code would be needed, but could be an option
I think you've got a wrong link.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on March 31, 2013, 03:22:36 PM
I think you've got a wrong link.

Oops..

http://www.hypershop.com/iUSBportCAMERA-by-HyperDrive-s/231.htm (http://www.hypershop.com/iUSBportCAMERA-by-HyperDrive-s/231.htm)

there is also a thread here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76884.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76884.0)

Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: kerian on April 03, 2013, 11:11:36 PM
Simple question:
 Should I trade in my P45+ for the new back?   Is it worth the 18k upgrade price?

yes or no?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: buckshot on April 03, 2013, 11:39:26 PM
Simple question: Should I trade in my P45+ for the new back?   Is it worth the 18k upgrade price?

Who's quoting you $18k? As far as I can tell the number is $22.5k (http://www.phaseonesc.com/blog/2013/03/p45-to-iq260-special-upgrade-pricing/) for P45+ to IQ260 with a Classic Warranty - as long as the trade-in is done before the end of June.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: buckshot on April 04, 2013, 06:45:40 PM
I did find this post (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/44854-p45-iq260-special-upgrade-pricing.html) from Lance Schad over at GetDPI which, at least, doesn't contradict what I said above.

Also, am assuming the $18k is in USD - might not be of course...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: gerald.d on April 05, 2013, 12:30:36 AM
I did find this post (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/44854-p45-iq260-special-upgrade-pricing.html) from Lance Schad over at GetDPI which, at least, doesn't contradict what I said above.

Also, am assuming the $18k is in USD - might not be of course...

There was a considerable amount of confusion over the upgrade pricing when these backs were announced.

Apparently, this (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/495330-post23.html) post does contain some WRONG numbers (example - the P65+>IQ280 price is not correct). This post also highlights the $22.5K for P45+>260. Given Lance's post is more recent, I would suggest it's more likely to be correct.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: lance_schad on April 05, 2013, 10:15:56 AM
The current price for an upgrade prices for P45+ to IQ260's are:

Classic:
Price of IQ260 CL: $36,990.0
Normal Price: $26,170.43
Promo Price (until 6/30/13) $22,564

Value Added:
Price of IQ260 VA: $40,990.00
Normal Price: $29,000.43
Promo Price (until 6/30/13) $25,003

Information on Warranty Differences (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-warranty-information-value-added-vs-classic)

Hope this helps clear up any confusion.


Lance
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on April 05, 2013, 10:35:02 AM
Lance,

Thanks for the clarification.  As a Phase customer since March 2008, I am curious if the "Promo" price will become the "standard" price over time, especially if orders don't come in as fast would be hoped?

Also, per history, Phase has had two forms of special pricing, (pricing that is not controlled by a dealer yet)

1.  Promo prices when new equipment is announced, i.e. the excellent promo pricing that P65+ users received to move to a IQ180
2.  December promos, as it seems that in December of each year Phase tends to put a few products on a "special" price promo and this sometimes runs into Jan of the next year.

As I recall in Dec. of 2012 there was a "special" on refurbished P65+ backs, and later a special price on a P40+ with DF camar and 80mm lens.  I can see their reason to want to move the
refurb P65+ with the scope of the IQ260. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Grischa Rueschendorf on April 05, 2013, 01:05:08 PM
Does P1 offer any crossgrade from 180 to 260? If so what's the ballpark figure?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 05, 2013, 01:15:32 PM
P1 does not. Individual dealers may. We (Digital Transitions) will be offering cross grades for a limited number of clients. Pricing will depend on shot count, condition, warranty of your back and other factors. You can email or call us for details.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on April 05, 2013, 01:23:02 PM
P1 does not. Individual dealers may. We (Digital Transitions) will be offering cross grades for a limited number of clients. Pricing will depend on shot count, condition, warranty of your back and other factors. You can email or call us for details.

Why a limited number of clients? Still good that you offer this while Phase does not.
Seems to me a bad move by Phase as the clients that bought 180 backs should be treated with while gloves as they are
clients that bought the very top of the line. maybe they were worried about to many wanting to change and being overwhelmed.
Going from the 180 to a 260 should not be considered a "cross grade" Wifi alone is a significant upgrade and really the resolution difference between 80MP and 60MP
is not significant in practice.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul Ozzello on April 05, 2013, 01:34:28 PM
Any special upgrade paths from A12 to IQ260 ?

 ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on April 07, 2013, 08:31:11 PM
Quote
e: IQ2 + Wireless
by Drew » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:10 am

Tilman wrote:
This is not very customerfriendly.

I apologize but I do not quite understand?
A new model of any product is, in fact, a New Product. The IQ2 series is a newly designed unit, with new Hardware, new firmware and many alterations to improve upon the previous version.
This is the same path that any new product follows, improving upon previous designs. We have done this in the past with units like the P45 and then later the P45+. Both of these were 39mp Sensors but with several years of new technology improvements introduced in the latter. Aside from our own products, this is the nature of all systems. Last years BMW cannot simply be taken to the local dealer for the new engine, transmission, dash, sat nav, etc... it is necessary to trade in/purchase the new model.
Again, I apologize if you feel as though the release of our new IQ2 series is somehow conflicting with your previous purchase but there are certainly trade-in opportunities at your local dealer and Phase One provides guaranteed value protection on all of it's products. If you've purchased your IQ180 within the last 12 months, we will buy it back for 90% of your original purchase price... something that can't be said for the car dealerships of the world.

http://www.phaseone.com/en/FooterMenu/I ... ction.aspx
Kind Regards,
Drew
Phase One
Drew
Crew

 
Posts: 2928
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:34 pm
Location: New York


So if anyone has an IQ180 that is under 12 months old Phase One will buy it back for 90% of the purchase price...

Maybe he mean't to say it will be valued at 90% of purchase price against the purchase of a new IQ280 at list price.
Probably a $ 5,000 ish upgrade compared to a straight street price purchase. For a $ 40,000 + back that's worth it if the Wifi feature
is important.

Hopefully there is a realistic option for those just over 12 months..... or more.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on April 07, 2013, 10:22:06 PM
What I want to know is when did the time frame change from 18 to 12 months.  I was on the Phase One site just a few weeks ago and it stated clearly 18 months. I started conversations with my dealer trying to figure what my "purchase price" was.  This was less than 2 weeks ago.  Either I was somehow on a older cached view of the Phase One site, or the number of months just dropped.   I am still within the 18 month time frame, but not 12.

It's never been made very clear what Phase One determines the actual purchase price to be. 

Since Phase does not publish list prices, I am trying to remember what the original purchase price of a IQ160 was back in Dec 2011.  It was around 36K or 39K, (there are plenty of dealers on that read this site, so if I am wrong, please let me know the old price)  before value add.  However if you traded in a used back say a P45+, your "purchase price" was adjusted by the trade in amount.  So a IQ160 with a P45+ traded in was around 25K before value add. 

I don't think Phase One is going to allow you the 90% based on the "list" price if you had a trade in as part of the buy.  They will give you 90% of the adjusted price after trade in i.e. 90% of 25K.  The value add issue is another problem also in trying to figure out if it will transfer.

I can't find the post that Fred is quoted by Tilman, but he appears to be a Phase One employee from New York.  I hope that Phase One will read this entire post and pick up on some of the frustration that the current pricing policy creates.   Please clarify what  you are giving back a full 90% of, the List price or adjusted price. There is huge difference here.  I also believe that most people who have a 180 class back, purchased that back via a upgrade of some type and did not pay full list. 

This whole "investment protection"  issue to me is not very well worded and needs to be spelled out in a more clearly. 

Paul Caldwell


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: HarperPhotos on April 07, 2013, 10:38:44 PM
Hello Paul,

What you have written reminds me of a situation that happened in New Zealand some years ago.

The then CEO of Telecom New Zealand a lady by the name of Theresa Guttung said at a conference about Telecom NZ marketing was its policy was to keep its customer confused when it came to there pricing structure.

I get the feeling Phase One are implementing the same policy.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 08, 2013, 08:29:30 AM
There is something I don't end to get here or there. It's about prices.

If some camera nanufacturers are targetting both the high-end profesional sphere and the "wealphy dentists" amateurs as the refrain says, what's the Price point then?
What's 30.000 bucks for people who are making 300.000?

I'm not saying that the Price isn't important, but if the target is people who have more than enough to afford those equipments, then the Price question is pointless.

Making a paralel with motion, one can argue that Red brought Raw on the cheap and a small structure can successfuly use Epics, but the fact is that what I'm seeing here is
that were the money is (or where the money still is because you know the spanish situation...), they would use Arri Raw because cost isn't a concern. And there could be endless debates Red vs Arri etc etc...but for the people-structures who have
mediums, those questions are pointless, the relation Price/value is pointless, just the value counts. Nikon target is mass market, big volume. Others aren't targetting this.

And about the Nikon, how is the pro service in Nikonland? Because is not just about a camera performance isn't it?

Something even more absurd: An Hasselblad covered of diamonds would be ridiculously vulgar. But if you think about it, some nouveau riches would bite, but I don't think a Nikon covered of diamonds will interest them
because there isn't enough exclusivity-luxury-prestige in Brand's image involved. My point is that the brand's prestige counts and has a Price too, regardless if some chinese industry would produce something
better at 1/100th of the cost. Manolo Blahnik is not the same as Bally with the exception that both are suitable to walk.

To ilustrate my lack on understanding on the Price/value side, the other day I was on set (invited, not working in) with a "silly" co-production digital cinema. An "historical" serie Co-produced by the national teevee. It's never going to be projected in theaters but HD tv. There was no tripod under 5.000 bucks, there was no lens under 55.000 (and generaly cine lenses are so expensive that they work in rental only). What's the point on spending huge amount of money on out-fashionned productions that nobody will watch except our grand'mas ? They could have filmed with a Scarlet and cheap Nikon optics, or with a C300 and guarantee that no viewer would ever notice something. The only reasonable answer I have is that they do it because they can. Same happens in still imagery. If some people can afford ultra-expensive lenses or cameras, they will do it, even if one can proof that there is the same or better at 1/10th the cost. All that is very relative.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Rob C on April 08, 2013, 05:46:10 PM

To ilustrate my lack on understanding on the Price/value side, the other day I was on set (invited, not working in) with a "silly" co-production digital cinema. An "historical" serie Co-produced by the national teevee. It's never going to be projected in theaters but HD tv. There was no tripod under 5.000 bucks, there was no lens under 55.000 (and generaly cine lenses are so expensive that they work in rental only). What's the point on spending huge amount of money on out-fashionned productions that nobody will watch except our grand'mas ? They could have filmed with a Scarlet and cheap Nikon optics, or with a C300 and guarantee that no viewer would ever notice something. The only reasonable answer I have is that they do it because they can. Same happens in still imagery. If some people can afford ultra-expensive lenses or cameras, they will do it, even if one can proof that there is the same or better at 1/10th the cost. All that is very relative.


Television now, but maybe there is an idea at the back of their minds that shooting at high quality might provide alternative commercial outlets later on... Non?

Rob C
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 08, 2013, 07:25:34 PM

Television now, but maybe there is an idea at the back of their minds that shooting at high quality might provide alternative commercial outlets later on... Non?

Rob C

I don't think so Rob. It's more likely because those are big structures, highly trade-unioned, and operators-producers are used to work that way forever, until 5 o clock afternoon... It's the mammouth.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: FredBGG on April 08, 2013, 07:44:10 PM
"wealphy dentists"

great spelling mistake! Made me smile..... Sounds like a wealthy dentist missing a front tooth....
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: fredjeang2 on April 08, 2013, 08:58:29 PM
great spelling mistake! Made me smile..... Sounds like a wealthy dentist missing a front tooth....

 ;D It took me time to see where my mistake was. That "t"

The thing is that phoneticaly we don't have the "th" sound in french (it's like ph) and it's damn hard to remember.

Very true, it sounds like a dentist  missing a front tooth ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: narikin on April 13, 2013, 08:56:08 PM
I would love a straight answer what an IQ180 to IQ280 upgrade cost is?  or at least the ball-park figure.

My P65+ to IQ180 was an $8500 upgrade, (May 2011) with Value Added Warranty, so I can't believe that for this upgrade, which is the same exact sensor, the mentioned price of $14,000 is right, especially when Phase claim to give you an "Investment Protection Program".

If it is correct, then doubt I'll be alone in waiting it out for the upcoming CMOS chips to arrive in 2014.


 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on April 13, 2013, 10:38:16 PM
One thing I have learned, the "investment protection policy" does not apply if you upgraded on your current back.  Example, if you own a IQ160 and you purchased it via a Upgrade say from a P65+ or P45+, then you don't qualify.  It's only for a situation where you paid list (or discounted list) for the back you own, which I believe is less common.  The math doesn't work anyway, since you would only be getting the 90% against your adjusted price (list subtract trade in).  I spoke to Phase (NY) directly on this last week.  It's a bit confusing but that is how it was explained to me.

The only price right now besides the list for a IQ260 which I believe is 36,900 (U.S) no value add, is the Cross grade pricing that Phase announced in March, i.e. IQ160 to IQ260, and so forth.  And as I understand, this pricing will go away as soon as the 260's start to ship.

Paul Caldwell


Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Jozef Zajaz on April 14, 2013, 07:59:14 AM
There isn't in this announcement. That's all I can say for 100% sure.

No there won't be a iq240. They will continue selling the 140 though.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: johndk on July 11, 2013, 03:23:00 PM
Hello.

I just wanted to check with others, I haven´t been on these forums since I got my P45+ just over 5 years ago!

I did the upgrade to the IQ260 (my P45+ has over 320k shots!) and today they showed up with my new IQ260. However, I was really shocked that it doesn´t even include a battery or charger. What as been the experiences of the rest of you that have gotten your IQ260?

BTW, they brought me one for Mamiya but I ordered for Hasselblad, so finally I couldn´t  take reciept of it. :( Sounds like a Phase one mistake and not my dealer.

Thanks in advance.
John
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on July 11, 2013, 05:49:14 PM
That sounds about right.  I know you don't get the same equipment as when you purchase a back "new", not via the upgrade.  When I upgraded from the P45+ to IQ160 back in 2011 I thought I got a new battery, but maybe not.  I know you don't get a case, charger etc.  You should get the new cables for USB3 and possible a Phase One zero latency cable for a tech camera.  You also should have a copy of Capture One software, but not the Pro version.  They may not include this anymore as you can download it and it's free for all Phase One digital back users.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: ddanois on July 12, 2013, 10:23:40 AM
Same for me. I think the expectation is that you still have your kit from the original DB purchase.

Derek
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Doug Peterson on July 12, 2013, 10:49:49 AM
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/phase-one-warranty-information

This page contains the contents of each kind of purchase.

Upgrades are halfway down.

Of course one can use the argument "for $XXXXX you should through in a free ____" for just about any expensive purchase. But every added "free" accessory is of course not really free but raises the cost of the underlying package (sometimes in unexpected ways such as increased shipping costs as you go past some size/weight).

I'm torn on this one - anyone upgrading their back is very likely to have several batteries and likely several chargers and including another charger/battery would likely be superfluous. Of course there can be exceptions so the Digital Transitions sales team makes an effort to discuss what is going to come with whatever purchase the customer is making to head off any unexpected confusion/disappointment.

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/product_images/Upgrade.JPG)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: tom_l on July 12, 2013, 12:22:31 PM
It probably depends.

I only upgraded once : P25->IQ160 and got 1 battery, 1 charger, 1 new short cable, 1 cleaning set.

I once send the old back in for cleaning, firmware upgrade, general check, which is quite expensive as you may know, but... I got it back in a new Peli Case

Tom
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Graham Welland on July 14, 2013, 12:22:30 PM

Of course one can use the argument "for $XXXXX you should through in a free ____" for just about any expensive purchase. But every added "free" accessory is of course not really free but raises the cost of the underlying package (sometimes in unexpected ways such as increased shipping costs as you go past some size/weight).

I'm torn on this one - anyone upgrading their back is very likely to have several batteries and likely several chargers and including another charger/battery would likely be superfluous.

I understand where you're coming from on this, although I strongly disagree. Given the costs of the backs and the margins that must exist on technology like this to make it worth Phase One and any dealer's efforts worthwhile, it seems pretty cheap not to just provide the accessories with an upgrade. It's not like we're talking a $500 upgrade price here, plus we're talking about providing those accessories at manufacturer's cost - not retail cost.

My $0.02.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: strok on October 18, 2014, 09:17:06 AM
What about upgrading to a 5 year added value warranty? Does it still come in a paper box with no accessories?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on October 18, 2014, 09:52:05 AM
What about upgrading to a 5 year added value warranty? Does it still come in a paper box with no accessories?

Not sure what your question is. If you upgrade to a new IQ2 back it now includes a 5 year value add warranty.
So the back upgrade would still ship with nothing extra in the box.

Paul
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: strok on October 18, 2014, 11:31:48 AM
Thank you Paul.
But the Value Added package is different from the one year warranty one. From my understanding is should include the extra stuff which is not provided by a regular kit. (case, Lens cast calibration plate, etc)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ260, IQ280, and Achromatic - 11 Things to Know
Post by: Paul2660 on October 18, 2014, 01:00:18 PM
I believe that only applies to a new back purchase not an upgrade.  You still get all the extras with a new back purchase that is an IQ2. The IQ1 backs only come with the classic 1 year warranty.

Paul