Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: satybhat on March 04, 2013, 03:12:37 am
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Hi all.
First of all, let me say with no ire: This is SO different from the other forums I've frequented !! Loads of information, great shots, inspirations abound !!
Background:
So I come from the 35mm category for the last 10 years, and after unbelievable amount of GAS, I settled on the 1D4 for Bif, and M9 for family / portraiture / travel / landscape. . I will probably be selling the M9 (and lenses) and possibly also the 1D4 and paraphrenalia.
Have been about 14 years in the medical field and have possibly squeezed in about 20 yrs of hard work, I am now at a stage where I finally get some time for doing contemplative landscape fine art, an occasional jab at large prints, possibly starting end of this year. Come June, a bit of medical related work will start finally paying off and I may be in a position to get some MF gear I'm possibly doing an exhibition in Dec at a local community hall. (M9 is a bit like been there, done that and unless upscaled, does not stand to gallery sized prints)
So please help me with your ideas about gear selection: ( I have already read and re-read the post from Natalie )twice( but my requirements are slightly different ).
Parameters:
Most importantly, I think I am in it for the long term- I have my own ideas about landscape photography and haven't really had any time to ponder and develop these more.
1. Weight may not be an issue, but I don't want to be lugging bellows and behemoths. I would mostly travel with the family: wifey (may the good Lord give her more patience) and 2 kids.
2. planned visits this year (all in Australia): One trip to Tasmanian forests: moisture / damp / rain. One to islands further south (cold / ice) . One to Lake Eyre (heat) - no family on the last 2 trips . Subject matter: landscapes.
3. Cost bracket for gear: 30K to 50K.
So I'm not sure what system I would go into.
For some reason, Hasselblad does not appeal, apart from their 'Tru-phocus". They seem to have gone the leica way: great lenses, ok cameras and more of a luxury-client approach.
Questions:
1. P1: appeals, not sure about P65 vs the new IQ sensors ( should I buy the system or should I be renting the back and buy the camera and lenses and put more money into travel and printing ?
2. The technical cameras (Alpa / Cambo) appeal, but have no idea about these at all. If the back is digital, are there any advantages ( aside of no electronics ) to having tech rigs as against integrated systems say 645AF ?
3. If printing 1: 1, what would be the print sizes for a non-scaled images from P65, IQ 140 , IQ 160 and IQ 180 at 300 dpi?
4. Are the backs light rain-proof ?
Thanks in advance.
Saty
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3. If printing 1: 1, what would be the print sizes for a non-scaled images from P65, IQ 140 , IQ 160 and IQ 180 at 300 dpi?
Thanks in advance.
Saty
Welcome on board Saty!
We have a table on this page (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_credo.asp) listing the output sizes from the Credo 40, 60 and 80 that are using the same sensors as in the IQ140, 160 and 180. Go to that page and click on Specifications
Cheers
Yair
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I'd say hold your horses for a little bit! Phase just announced the new IQ2xx series, which means two things:
- IQ1xx series will get cheaper if the new ones take up the current price bracket.
- If you want the cutting edge, then the bar has just been raised.
So now might be a bad time to jump in... But I'm also on your boat, Hass doesn't appeal to me and Leica is cool, but really only works with Lightroom, which doesn't have (usable) flat-field correction, making it a no-starter.
I've been considering the move to MF as well, but things have been tough lately and now this... it looks like I'm back on the fence and will tide myself over with a new DSLR instead.
Questions:
1. P1: appeals, not sure about P65 vs the new IQ sensors ( should I buy the system or should I be renting the back and buy the camera and lenses and put more money into travel and printing ?
2. The technical cameras (Alpa / Cambo) appeal, but have no idea about these at all. If the back is digital, are there any advantages ( aside of no electronics ) to having tech rigs as against integrated systems say 645AF ?
3. If printing 1: 1, what would be the print sizes for a non-scaled images from P65, IQ 140 , IQ 160 and IQ 180 at 300 dpi?
4. Are the backs light rain-proof ?
1. P65+ and IQ160 are the same back, the IQ system is mainly an advancement in the way you work with the camera.
2. Tech cam lenses are incredibly sharp corner-to-corner (especially compared to 645 wides), and you have the benefit of movements, which makes them ideal for architecture and landscape.
3. You could print a meter wide with an 80mp of resolution no problem, I print stitched 80mp prints that big from a DSLR right now and it works well enough, so a MFDB should be even better.
4. From the photos I've seen, people use these cameras in some pretty ridiculous places, I'm not sure there are many situations you might find yourself that someone else didn't top already.
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We have a table on this page (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_credo.asp) listing the output sizes from the Credo 40, 60 and 80 that are using the same sensors as in the IQ140, 160 and 180. Go to that page and click on Specifications
Thanks Yair.
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I'd say hold your horses for a little bit! Phase just announced the new IQ2xx series, which means two things:
- IQ1xx series will get cheaper if the new ones take up the current price bracket.
- If you want the cutting edge, then the bar has just been raised.
1. P65+ and IQ160 are the same back, the IQ system is mainly an advancement in the way you work with the camera.
2. Tech cam lenses are incredibly sharp corner-to-corner (especially compared to 645 wides), and you have the benefit of movements, which makes them ideal for architecture and landscape.
3. You could print a meter wide with an 80mp of resolution no problem, I print stitched 80mp prints that big from a DSLR right now and it works well enough, so a MFDB should be even better.
4. From the photos I've seen, people use these cameras in some pretty ridiculous places, I'm not sure there are many situations you might find yourself that someone else didn't top already.
Thanks mate. so tech cams: any sites where I could find reviews and such ? having said that, joe cornish is quite at ease with using the 645DF+, in seaspray and all... figures, since he likely doesn't own the rig :)
saty
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Reviews? Well, there are only a handful of tech cams out there, and I think the community at both LuLa and GetDPI would know the most about each system. You can find some reviews on the LuLa main site. The two most popular ones that I see among landscapers are the Alpa WA and Cambo WRS. I don't think you could go wrong with either of those.
One thing to be aware of, is that 80mp backs are so susceptible to lens cast, that you can only use retro-focus lenses. This means that you'll need the Rodenstock HR-W lenses, which are expensive to say the least... the legendary HR 32mm comes in at $7,500 and you'll need the center filter too. Going the 40/60mp route will let you use the much cheaper Schneider glass.
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You can find a 100% JPG from a 32HR on a tech camera here:
Phase One with Rodenstock 32HR (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-testing/28mm-32mm-test)
I can't speak to global market share but we have about equal numbers of Cambo (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/cambo-new-bodies) and Arca Swiss (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/news/arca-swiss).
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Oh yeah, the Arca rm3d, almost forgot about that one. The HR32 does look great, but it's also a beast of a lens, you should probably see one in person before deciding on whether it's right for you.
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First, rent and go to a workshop. Get your hands on these cameras and try them out. The workflow and problems will be new. Many people do find out that the effort is a bit too much.
Second, go to GetDPI.com. That forum has plenty of MFD shooters as well. It is a great source of information about these cameras and backs. LuLa is OK, but there is a lot of time spent here talking about whether MFD is actually alive or not.
The difference between a technical camera and DSLR is significant. Not in what you can shoot--you can do street with a technical camera and landscape with a DSLR. But how they work and the controls you have over them. Optics are very different with technical camera lenses coming out better over all. But then you have limited choices of optics--no telephotos with tech cams. Lens cast can be more of an issue with tech cam lenses.
As far as printing. You effectively have no limit to prints size nor are you going to see any big difference in these backs/cameras. A small print for me starts at 4'. Print size should not be a criteria for choosing any of these.
BTW, I use a Pentax 645D for my travel and family pics. I know someone at GetDPI that uses a tech cam for the same thing.
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First, rent and go to a workshop. Get your hands on these cameras and try them out. The workflow and problems will be new. Many people do find out that the effort is a bit too much.
Second, go to GetDPI.com. That forum has plenty of MFD shooters as well. It is a great source of information about these cameras and backs. LuLa is OK, but there is a lot of time spent here talking about whether MFD is actually alive or not.
The difference between a technical camera and DSLR is significant. Not in what you can shoot--you can do street with a technical camera and landscape with a DSLR. But how they work and the controls you have over them. Optics are very different with technical camera lenses coming out better over all. But then you have limited choices of optics--no telephotos with tech cams. Lens cast can be more of an issue with tech cam lenses.
As far as printing. You effectively have no limit to prints size nor are you going to see any big difference in these backs/cameras. A small print for me starts at 4'. Print size should not be a criteria for choosing any of these.
BTW, I use a Pentax 645D for my travel and family pics. I know someone at GetDPI that uses a tech cam for the same thing.
For your use the Pentax 645D sounds like the best way to go. Whole camera is weather sealed and Pentax weather sealing in serious weather sealing.
IQ backs may be "weather sealed", but the cameras and lenses are not, not even close. The connection between the back and the camera is not weather sealed.
Pentax also offers image stabilization in their new lens. More focus points than either Hasselblad or Phase One.
It appears that a Pentax 645D II will be announced soon. I would wait for that if I were you.
The 645D also has a very good track record. No serious issues. It's a Pentax. The whole system is made by the same company.
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3. If printing 1: 1, what would be the print sizes for a non-scaled images from P65, IQ 140 , IQ 160 and IQ 180 at 300 dpi?
Yair linked you to the numerical answer.
I'd just add that it's always dangerous to only look at the numbers and not look at actual prints.
The presence/lack of an AA filter, the sharpness and rendering style of the lens, the quality of the raw conversion (and how well tuned it is to the particular kind of file you're processing) can all affect the final print quality (not to mention all the factors like focus, camera shake, vibration, etc etc etc) in ways that are not easy to anticipate when only looking at the numbers.
Suffice it to say an 80mp raw capture, properly executed, makes a very good, very large print.
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For your use the Pentax 645D sounds like ................
Hey Fred,
When you tested the Pentax 645 against your IQ/DF, did you test them side by side?
I didn't have the opportunity to shoot actual files side by side, but when I viewed the Pentax I took my Contax with the right angle grip into the store and compared the ergonomics to the DF with a grip, my contax and the Pentax.
I like the Pentax but found shooting vertical wasn't that easy given the camera grip, but everyone is different. How did you find it?
Also just shooting the Pentax to card seemed slow to clear the buffer. I don't need 10fps but I do need a little more responsiveness.
When you did your testing, how did that effect you?
Also, since you seem to know a lot about the Pentax, I assume you have some contact with the company. When/if the new 645d will be on the shelf, what sensor will it use, are they going to up their tethering suite to have ipad transmission like Phase and Hasselblad? Will the newer 645d have a bigger buffer and faster processor?
That would be great if they did.
Thanks in advance for the inside info.
BC
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Hi,
Regarding Pentax 645D I would like to point to these articles:
http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt1.html
http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt2.html
Lloyd Chambers has tested most of the lenses for the Pentax 645D so I think he has valuable info. He also tested the Leica S2 and the Hasselblad D4 (HD50?)
http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/Pentax645D/index.html
http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/HasselbladH4D/index.html
Lloyd's different sites are pay sites, but if you consider Pentax I think it would be a good read.
I'm a Sony shooter so I don't have any ponies in this race, just an interested bystander.
Best regards
Erik
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To read you must pay?
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With that budget I'd go for a IQ260. That'll stop you from trading up gears for at least 2 years and focus on taking pictures. At lower budget I'd go for a P65+ as they have great trade in value for the IQ2xx backs if you want to upgrade later. Stick with Phase system for ease of upgrade/resale.
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Hi,
If you refer to my posting about the Diglloyd site it is indeed the case. On the other hand, if you plan to spend 20000 USD on Pentax equipment (camera + a few lenses) it may be a good investment to spend 25 USD on a site that has tested 40 lenses for that camera, don't you think?
I actually have reservations about pay sites but it's not the cost but the fact that you cannot share the information.
Best regards
Erik
To read you must pay?
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Hey Fred,
I like the Pentax but found shooting vertical wasn't that easy given the camera grip, but everyone is different. How did you find it?
BC
I don't know if everyone is different, but I can say that the Phase One Vertical grip for me was the best for horizontal shooting.
Both hands on the grip. Left hand clasping the bulge between thumb and index finger palm down.
For verticals I preferred the DF without grip. Right elbow infront of my chest and wrist at 90 degrees. I find I get more stability with my wrists
folded at about 90 degrees.
The Pentax thanks to the recessed front felt very nice both ways despite the lack of a vertical grip.
However I liked that the camera has a built in vertical tripod thread on the side so you don't have to use a dumb L bracket.
I'd like to see that on more cameras.
Anyway I am 6ft 4in, 230lbs and due to years of windsurfing and kitesurfing I have the so called "grip of death" as well a long hands I am by no means a typical case.
Hell I shoot hand held with the Fuji GX680 ... and that is silly to say the least...
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Hey Fred,
Also just shooting the Pentax to card seemed slow to clear the buffer. I don't need 10fps but I do need a little more responsiveness.
When you did your testing, how did that effect you?
BC
I don't shoot very fast for long times. I come from shooting a large amount of 8x10 Polaroid for editorial fashion and advertising.
Loads of free Polaroid 8x10 thanks to being sponsored... just had to credit Polaroid using Polaroid by Fred.... rather than Photo by Fred ....
So I shoot relatively slowly even with faster digital cameras. I'll go at a slow pace, but do like a fast burst if something fast happens like a cool gust of wind
that makes a special moment. However for that I need faster them MFD speeds.
A bigger buffer and faster write speeds to memory cards would be better.
However I did like the dual card setup. CF and SD cards don't fail much, but when they do it can be a big pain in the ass.
Having redundancy with two cards is a very nice feature especially shooting situations where a re shooting a setup
is out of the question.
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Hey Fred,
Also, since you seem to know a lot about the Pentax, I assume you have some contact with the company.
BC
No special contact with the company, but for a "full disclosure" I have highly recommended the Pentax W30 compact and chatted with the US product manager of this compact
water proof camera about how I use it kitesurfing. I attach it to my kite 100 feet up and have it shoot my whole sessions either video or stills. I made a few suggestions regarding
marketing the w30 to kite surfers, windsurfers and downhill mountain bikers as well as giving it a remote.
Here's one on my wall.... big day up on the central coast riding a twin tip after trashing both mu surfboards. The high fog made the water look like chrome from the kites viewpoint.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8529548437_5de18a6660_b.jpg)
Getting back on subject a bit more. My recommendation of the Pentax 645D to the OP (Saty) is in large part due to Pentax's high reliability
and weather sealing expertise. My w30 point and shoots survived being trashed with my kites in huge surf.
It fared better than me a couple of times.
Saty mentioned
"One trip to Tasmanian forests: moisture / damp / rain. One to islands further south (cold / ice) . One to Lake Eyre (heat)"
That is why I recommend the Pentax becasue this is the type of weather sealing Pentax makes:
http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw (http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw)
IF I'm taking a once in a lifetime trip to the Tasmanian jungle with expensive cameras I would want to be able to fit two
cameras into my budget and have serious weather sealing. Hence the Pentax 645D or 645D II.
Here's a funny one...
http://youtu.be/qtF4z7uKYoY (http://youtu.be/qtF4z7uKYoY)
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Hi Fred,
8x10" Polaroid still around? Nice to hear!
Best regards
Erik
I don't shoot very fast for long times. I come from shooting a large amount of 8x10 Polaroid for editorial fashion and advertising.
Loads of free Polaroid 8x10 thanks to being sponsored... just had to credit Polaroid using Polaroid by Fred.... rather than Photo by Fred ....
So I shoot relatively slowly even with faster digital cameras. I'll go at a slow pace, but do like a fast burst if something fast happens like a cool gust of wind
that makes a special moment. However for that I need faster them MFD speeds.
A bigger buffer and faster write speeds to memory cards would be better.
However I did like the dual card setup. CF and SD cards don't fail much, but when they do it can be a big pain in the ass.
Having redundancy with two cards is a very nice feature especially shooting situations where a re shooting a setup
is out of the question.
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Many thanks Eric, Doug, Fred and others.
just so we're clear, I'm actually in Australia at present, so the visit to Tasmania may not be once in a lifetime. having said that, I would want to invest in a scaleable system. I almost pulled the trigger on the 645D last year, before I got waylaid by a friend and decided to buy the Leica 24 lux and 90 cron instead. I wish I hadn't listened and gotten the pentax instead.
if 645D -2 is released, it may be worth looking at, from what I hear, the pentax lenses have lets just say larger tolerances, therefore more variation. but I have no first hand information.
Is there any reason you would choose the arca / cambo or other technicals for landscaping rather than an integrated phase 645DF+ ?
Or put it other wise, money being no concern (upto say 40K) what would your ideal kit be ?
THanks guys !!!!
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Hi Fred,
8x10" Polaroid still around? Nice to hear!
Best regards
Erik
No it's no longer produced. Impossible project is bringing it back somewhat. However I am doing some direct to paper shooting with the 8x10. Nice look.
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Is there any reason you would choose the arca / cambo or other technicals for landscaping rather than an integrated phase 645DF+ ?
Well, there is currently no T/S lens for the 645D (although Pentax mentioned 2 years ago to me that they were looking into this), so that is one obvious value of Tech camera mounted standalone backs, unless you are willing to cope with the challenges of DoF stacking of course.
I personnally find shift of little value for landscape, but some photographers prefer to be able to correct for verticals in camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Many thanks Eric, Doug, Fred and others.
just so we're clear, I'm actually in Australia at present, so the visit to Tasmania may not be once in a lifetime. having said that, I would want to invest in a scaleable system. I almost pulled the trigger on the 645D last year, before I got waylaid by a friend and decided to buy the Leica 24 lux and 90 cron instead. I wish I hadn't listened and gotten the pentax instead.
if 645D -2 is released, it may be worth looking at, from what I hear, the pentax lenses have lets just say larger tolerances, therefore more variation. but I have no first hand information.
Pentax lenses are outstanding as are most current MF lenses.
The New Pentax 645 90mm 2.8 is also the only MF lens with image stabilization.
Another thing you should consider is weight and speed/ease of use.
The Pentax has more focusing points than Phase One or Hasselblad cameras and all three are far faster to use than a tech camera, especially when it comes to focusing.
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if 645D -2 is released, it may be worth looking at, from what I hear, the pentax lenses have lets just say larger tolerances, therefore more variation. but I have no first hand information.
Their lenses are equal to Mamiya and, in some cases, better. You would need to go to a Leica S for something more consistent. There is a lot of information about which lenses work well with the 645D. You also have a choice of Pentax 67 lenses with an automatic aperture and you can fit Hasselblad lenses, but with only stop-down metering. I don't know anybody who has bothered with Hasselblad lenses and are satisfied with the Pentax 645 line. I use four Pentax lenses, one of the new lenses for the 645D, one of the AF lenses from the film era, and two manual focus lenses from the film era. All fine lenses.
Is there any reason you would choose the arca / cambo or other technicals for landscaping rather than an integrated phase 645DF+ ?
The optics may be a factor. Especially is you shoot wides. But that can also be more complex as you need to start thinking about lens cast and center filters.
Movements are another reason. One, for controlling perspective and the plane of focus and, two, for stitching panoramas if you want a flat field pano. I certainly do panoramas with my 645D, but a cylindrical projection works better in my opinion.
Technical cameras are fun to use. If photography is a hobby, buying something for kicks is just as valid as anything else.
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Hi,
At least for the time I'm not ready to invest in MFD, I have considered it from time to time. But there are a few buts. Economy is an important aspect but there are others.
I would say the Pentax is an interesting alternative, one I may actually consider. Obviously some of the lenses are very good. Lloyd Chambers has tested a lot of lenses and found a great variation. That said, most samples I have seen from the Pentax 645D were good and most reviews I read were glowing with praise. A concern with the Pentax may be the focal plane shutter, if you need short sync times. Vibration from the shutter may also be a problem, it definitively was a problem on the Pentax 67.
I'm not enthusiastic about Hasselblad, but I guess it is a decent offering.
My main interest would be technical cameras. Perhaps foremost the Hartblei HCam and the Alpa FPS, but I would say that both would be much more interesting with Live View. Both these cameras are built around a Mamiya FP shutter but they have reduced vibrations significantly, according Stefan Steib of Hartblei by using a very solid aluminium body and imbedding the shutter in a rubber bad.
Would I have 40K handy I guess they may stay in the bank, but those IQ backs are attractive and so are Rodenstock lenses.
Best regards
Erik
Many thanks Eric, Doug, Fred and others.
just so we're clear, I'm actually in Australia at present, so the visit to Tasmania may not be once in a lifetime. having said that, I would want to invest in a scaleable system. I almost pulled the trigger on the 645D last year, before I got waylaid by a friend and decided to buy the Leica 24 lux and 90 cron instead. I wish I hadn't listened and gotten the pentax instead.
if 645D -2 is released, it may be worth looking at, from what I hear, the pentax lenses have lets just say larger tolerances, therefore more variation. but I have no first hand information.
Is there any reason you would choose the arca / cambo or other technicals for landscaping rather than an integrated phase 645DF+ ?
Or put it other wise, money being no concern (upto say 40K) what would your ideal kit be ?
THanks guys !!!!
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I would seriously consider IQ2. If you can hold with the investment a bit, I would wait fot some tests o IQ2 and give it a test drive. Also see if Hasselblad anwsers in any way, but I wouldn't count on anything special.. Versatility is there (you can always swap a mount, use a tech camera etc) and, at least for me & for now only on paper, but still- IQ260 is the new king with it's claimed 1h exposure.
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Well, there is currently no T/S lens for the 645D (although Pentax mentioned 2 years ago to me that they were looking into this), so that is one obvious value of Tech camera mounted standalone backs, unless you are willing to cope with the challenges of DoF stacking of course.
I personnally find shift of little value for landscape, but some photographers prefer to be able to correct for verticals in camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
No there is no TS on Pentax (yet). Even if they did, I'm not sure this would be a weather-sealed system. I would probably require tilting, perhaps panos as well, although am yet to work out sliding backs and the logistics or carrying the gear. Not quite interested in focus-stacking, and have never done any cylindrical projections. Am I correct in assuming that the technical cameras are not weather proof ?
So in terms of gearing up, I am thinking of renting the backs for now... (will likely travel for 6 weeks only in the remaining year) and am attracted to the phase backs, likely will try iq160 (not very confident with the colour casts issues with the iq180 - and may eventually gravitate towards iq2 160 due their long exposures. BUT would likely BUY the system and lenses this season.
So my question is: is there any technical system out there that is weather proof: (sea spray, light rain, -20*C ? ) or am I being too paranoid ? I hear lots of folks have travelled to crazy places with the technicals, but how does it fare with digital backs and actually shooting in inclement weather?
Thanks Bernard and others !
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Easy enough to shoot tech cams in less than ideal weather. Have a small towel or rain cover. Cameras were used outdoors long before weatherproofing was invented.
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So my question is: is there any technical system out there that is weather proof: (sea spray, light rain, -20*C ? ) or am I being too paranoid ? I hear lots of folks have travelled to crazy places with the technicals, but how does it fare with digital backs and actually shooting in inclement weather?
Thanks Bernard and others !
Don't drop it into the ocean, and avoid shooting for extended periods in a monsoon, and you'll be fine.
When things get ugly a shower cap (a suggestion I picked up from Ken Doo / Guy Mancuso / Jack Flesher - I don't remember which) works remarkably well, and requires no pack weight/size.
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Aye, that be me, Doug. You might not recall because you were either tied up and/or blindfolded at the time... ;D
A small towel is nice to pack along with your tech cam, and you can simply throw it over the camera to cover from minor misting. A small hotel shower cap works great with its light elastic band, holding onto your tech camera or DSLR. There really is no such thing as a weather-proof camera, imho, just weather resistant cameras. But don't be fooled---you'd be surprised how well a technical camera (or Phase DF) and a Phase One MFDB hold up in weather or harsh conditions. And honestly, if conditions get that harsh and miserable out----that's when photography just isn't fun anymore.
Take a peek at my Cambo WRS and IQ180 in this blog article. Images taken right in the wind and spray of Lower Proxy Falls in Oregon. http://kendoophotography.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/photographing-oregon-with-the-cambo-wrs1050-and-phase-iq180/
ken :)
p.s. I've found that shooting with a technical camera really isn't much slower shooting landscapes for me than with the Phase DF or DSLR (yech). I'm shooting with all manual settings anyway. Extra minute to attach the cable release; another 15 seconds to shoot the LCC. But using a technical camera is infinitely more enjoyable!
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I've shot my Cambo WRS in the surf, heavy fog, light and heavy rain/snow and beside a waterfall all without a problem. So long as I thought it out ahead of time. I carry a light-weight towel and a shower cap for just these times. I have been caught in a blowing dust storm where I thought it worse than all the above.
Remember the 6-P Principal - Proper Planning Prevent P-Poor Performance.
Don
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I've shot my Cambo WRS in the surf, heavy fog, light and heavy rain/snow and beside a waterfall all without a problem. So long as I thought it out ahead of time. I carry a light-weight towel and a shower cap for just these times. I have been caught in a blowing dust storm where I thought it worse than all the above.
Remember the 6-P Principal - Proper Planning Prevent P-Poor Performance.
Don
Or simply enjoy the freedom of movement of a fully weather sealed camera. Everything can be managed one way or the other, but it's worth considering the benefits of
a fully weather sealed system for peace of mind and the freedom that advanced weather sealing permits. Not having to pamper the camera.
Another consideration that needs to be made is turn around times for service on MF gear, especially if you are located in Australia.
Going back to speed.... speed makes a huge difference with the fast changing light of dawn and sunset through low clouds and fast changes of fog moving out or quickly changing weather.
How much difference in quality is there going to be between the fully weather sealed 40MP Pentax and a tech camera. There is a difference, but is it worth the weather and ergonomic difference.
Just to give this some proportion here is a comparison between an IQ180 and a Nikon d800E 36MP and smaller sensor than the Pentax 645D.
http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)
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Hey Fred,
When you use your 645D what lenses do you use?
The newer designed digital based lenses or older film era lenses?
Did you get a chance to compare them, because I wonder if there is a difference?
The 645D looks like a great camera and I'm sure that your enjoying it.
I'd love to see some photos you shot from it.
I bet they're great.
BC
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BC,
If you want to see some images from the 645D look at my review here http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt2.html
There are 100% crops available.
I shot through a Yosemite wet snow storm for the Tunnel View shoot.
The bottom line is the 645D is bullet proof and weather proof.
The old lenses can take it with a little care, I use part of a plastic bag and a rubber band to weatherproof them.
All people shooting Canon gear that day had the viewfinder fog, even the 1 series bodies.
Only my Pentax and David Brookovers Nikon D3x made it through the shoot.
Pentax doesn't pay me, although I would be happy to take there $$. ;D
Miles
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Nice,
I know ou shoot nature, but how is it on skintones?
Thanks
BC
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Hey Fred,
When you use your 645D what lenses do you use?
The newer designed digital based lenses or older film era lenses?
Did you get a chance to compare them, because I wonder if there is a difference?
The 645D looks like a great camera and I'm sure that your enjoying it.
I'd love to see some photos you shot from it.
I bet they're great.
BC
Many of the film era lens are fine on the 645D. There are a few dogs like the 45mm, but there are plenty of fine optics in both the A and FA series lenses that work with the 645D very well.
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Nice,
I know ou shoot nature, but how is it on skintones?
Thanks
BC
It does skin very well in the studio and in the real world.
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No there is no TS on Pentax (yet). Even if they did, I'm not sure this would be a weather-sealed system. I would probably require tilting, perhaps panos as well, although am yet to work out sliding backs and the logistics or carrying the gear. Not quite interested in focus-stacking, and have never done any cylindrical projections. Am I correct in assuming that the technical cameras are not weather proof ?
So in terms of gearing up, I am thinking of renting the backs for now... (will likely travel for 6 weeks only in the remaining year) and am attracted to the phase backs, likely will try iq160 (not very confident with the colour casts issues with the iq180 - and may eventually gravitate towards iq2 160 due their long exposures. BUT would likely BUY the system and lenses this season.
So my question is: is there any technical system out there that is weather proof: (sea spray, light rain, -20*C ? ) or am I being too paranoid ? I hear lots of folks have travelled to crazy places with the technicals, but how does it fare with digital backs and actually shooting in inclement weather?
Thanks Bernard and others !
As other have said, rain/snow is not really a major issue. Sea spray can be a bit more problematic since it typically occurs when there is significant wind blowing. I prefer to use a full blown transparent protection in such conditions, I sometimes do with a light cloth when it is just rain/snow without wind. But the main problem in those conditions is to keep the front glass of the lens clean of water. Depending on wind, this is sometimes next to impossible to achieve which forces you to work with wider apertures, think real hard about what you shoot when and makes panos a nightmare.
But anyway, the real problem with cameras and water mostly result from condensation following a change from cold to warm environments. That gets every single square mm of the camera/lens wet. You can reduce the impact by trying to seal the camera/lens in an air tight bag, but in my experience it often ends up being very wet anyway.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sounds like a tech camera is your interest, but a few comments about the 645D. I’ve had my 645D since December 2010 ; like Miles’ it’s been in bad weather - snow, rain, blowing sand – not a hiccup. The files are quite malleable when used at ISO 1-200, above noise appears, but is easily removed. I have a large collection of Pentax 645 lenses and most are excellent with the 645D. The 120mm A macro, which clearly out resolves the 645D sensor, might cost $400 (and I’ve never heard of a bad copy); other lenses are of similar quality. I followed Lloyd Chamber’s testing of the 645D very closely and supplied a few of the lenses he tested. He found some excellent and some wanting. I admire his intelligence and methodology, but he tested a random collection of used lenses (many 20+ -years-old). Understandably, he tested the lenses in a very rapid manner, his business model depends on getting subscribers and Pentax is not a big market share. Many of his tests were shots of the Stanford Memorial Church mosaic; a lovely mosaic, but the functional equivalent of the brick wall. One of the lenses I sent him he found to be so-so, but I find it to be wonderful for landscape - very sharp, no flare and little CA, but I have the luxury of time in my tests.
No tilt or shift (yet), but an adapter for a 4x5 view camera is available (you need to use LF 90mm+ lenses). You can also modify the excellent Pentax 67 55mm or 45 mm lenses with a shim in the lens mount for a fixed 5 degree tilt.
The D800 has driven Pentax lens prices are very low; they are an amazing bargain (not the new ones).
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Hey Fred,
When you use your 645D what lenses do you use?
The newer designed digital based lenses or older film era lenses?
Did you get a chance to compare them, because I wonder if there is a difference?
The 645D looks like a great camera and I'm sure that your enjoying it.
I'd love to see some photos you shot from it.
I bet they're great.
BC
I don't use the Pentax 645D, but tested it.... I think you know that already.
I only tested it with the 55mm DA and the 120mm Macro FA.
Both very nice lenses.
View finder is very nice too. Far better than the Film Pentax 645 I had years ago.
Anyway I decided against buying one and prefer the combination of D800/D800E and shooting large 6x8 MF film and 8x10 large format.
A larger full frame sensor in a Pentax 645D II would might sway me .....
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It does skin very well in the studio and in the real world.
There is a fellow that has many images posted on flickr. Lots of portraits.
Plenty of images showing skin tones in many situations, models and portraits
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13377977@N04/5840902476/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/13377977@N04/5840902476/in/photostream/)
But really these days skin tones are really very very good with d800, Phase, Pentax, Hasselblad. All the high end
do very well. Skin tone issues are more likely to be lighting problems, casting the right model and how the subjects skin is on the day you shoot.
It's also funny how so many people go on and on about skin tones and then manipulate the skin tones so much in post that they have nothing to
do with the colors the camera captures.
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Another well pleased Pentax 645D owner here. I have really put this thing through it's paces without a single hiccup. Today it was soaking wet when I stopped shooting in a heavy wet snow. I have several lenses and find them all to be satisfactory. I too read all of the "tests". Currently using the 35A, 75A, 120FA, 200A, and 400FA. I am able to produce and sell 80 inch prints that are tack sharp.
I guess I really don't understand all of the concern about write speed and high iso. Wasn't too long ago that I liked Kodachrome 64 because it was so fast. Then I waited a week [write speed?] for the film to come back to see the results. Ah, life in the slow lane!
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................I guess I really don't understand all of the concern about write speed and high iso. Wasn't too long ago that I liked Kodachrome 64 because it was so fast. Then I waited a week [write speed?] for the film to come back to see the results. Ah, life in the slow lane!
LOL, me too. For really low light there was Kodachrome 200! The preview is slow, but I once took eight shots in ten seconds trying to capture a landing goose. Not bad for MF
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I guess what I really like is how tough this thing is. It is built like a tank. I suppose I should keep my mouth shut because sooner or later I will want to trade cameras, but... This camera took roll down a flight of six uncarpeted stairs with the 120 attached. Didn't faze it. Fell out of the front seat of the car onto the black top, a little road rash. Works great! Been baked in the sun, carried up hill and dale, wet and dusty. Picked up this old friend and put it to work this morning. It didn't ask any questions and delivered. I think I'm in love. Ray
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BTW, you don't get a better camera because you pay more money--you simply get a more expensive camera. So, to say I want to spend $30K on a camera is not really a very meaningful statement. You really want a camera you will use, AND then see if you have the budget.
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THanks chaps.
no I don't necessarily HAVE to spend 30-40K. That happens to be the budget. In all likelihood, I will rent a back and buy the system. a year or so, if I have consistent use, I will buy a back.
Overall, if asked what my the over-arching requirement, I would say:
I want to make 2 x 1.5m prints if required for the best of my files.
Would the pentax 645D satisfy ? Your experience and opinions welcome here.
Which is the reason why I considered MF in the first place. The exhibition requires me to make large prints ( I have an allocation of 3 frames upto 2x1.5m dimensions). A few important chaps from the local art scene will attend. I have no hopes to turn professional for now (I work as a doctor), but who knows, someone might like my work.
So I rephrase. 2 x 1.5m prints: what system will satisfy ? Film is too tedious here in Oz.
Cheers chiefs.
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THanks chaps.
no I don't necessarily HAVE to spend 30-40K. That happens to be the budget. In all likelihood, I will rent a back and buy the system. a year or so, if I have consistent use, I will buy a back.
I went the same route myself. But, it turned out to be a mistake, at least with Mamiya/Phase. Buying DF body + 80mm lens WITH a back is much much cheaper than buying it separately. They even have special offers on additional lens from time to time. I find buying DF body separately not attractive at all.
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THanks chaps.
no I don't necessarily HAVE to spend 30-40K. That happens to be the budget. In all likelihood, I will rent a back and buy the system. a year or so, if I have consistent use, I will buy a back.
Overall, if asked what my the over-arching requirement, I would say:
I want to make 2 x 1.5m prints if required for the best of my files.
Would the pentax 645D satisfy ? Your experience and opinions welcome here.
Which is the reason why I considered MF in the first place. The exhibition requires me to make large prints ( I have an allocation of 3 frames upto 2x1.5m dimensions). A few important chaps from the local art scene will attend. I have no hopes to turn professional for now (I work as a doctor), but who knows, someone might like my work.
So I rephrase. 2 x 1.5m prints: what system will satisfy ? Film is too tedious here in Oz.
Cheers chiefs.
Well, I print on a 44" roll-paper printer--really expensive to go bigger or you need to join multiple sheets. I have a 1.07m X 4m panorama on my wall where I cannot see all the detail in the file. That 1.07m is the short edge of the 645D frame. I think you will be able to make really nice 2m x 1.5m prints from a 645D or any 40MP back.
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I went the same route myself. But, it turned out to be a mistake, at least with Mamiya/Phase. Buying DF body + 80mm lens WITH a back is much much cheaper than buying it separately. They even have special offers on additional lens from time to time. I find buying DF body separately not attractive at all.
Ah,
therein lies my elegant solution: See, since last week, I have been toying with the idea of getting a tech cam, something along the lines of Alpa 12TCS, with a rented back.
Then, only if I need to plunge into a MF camera on the lines of 645DF+ or something, I will over the next year do that.
Any thoughts on that ? or am I being ridiculous !! :-\
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Ah,
therein lies my elegant solution: See, since last week, I have been toying with the idea of getting a tech cam, something along the lines of Alpa 12TCS, with a rented back.
Then, only if I need to plunge into a MF camera on the lines of 645DF+ or something, I will over the next year do that.
Any thoughts on that ? or am I being ridiculous !! :-\
I think that is a very smart move. Maybe even see if you can rent the tech camera too.
Renting the back at first is a good idea as it is an expensive commitment.
Have you considered hiring a digitec who owns a tech camera for a short trip?
I also think that something to consider is a combination of cameras.
Tech camera and a D800E. Two different approaches. Both together offer the best of both worlds and are compact enough to travel together
and you would have redundancy.
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I guess what I really like is how tough this thing is. It is built like a tank. I suppose I should keep my mouth shut because sooner or later I will want to trade cameras, but... This camera took roll down a flight of six uncarpeted stairs with the 120 attached. Didn't faze it. Fell out of the front seat of the car onto the black top, a little road rash. Works great! Been baked in the sun, carried up hill and dale, wet and dusty. Picked up this old friend and put it to work this morning. It didn't ask any questions and delivered. I think I'm in love. Ray
I'm somewhat kinder to mine. Still, 2.3 years without a glitch - I look forward to the 645dII.
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Yes, I know, I should be a bit more careful. Seriously though, this has been a great experience with this camera. It's like having a DSLR on steroids. I keep it on the seat next to me as I travel, always ready to go. Incredible battery life. I rarely turn it off and just leave it on so it is always ready. Of course I learned from days gone by running cars at the drag strip that cubic money will always trump cubic inches! Soooo.... I suppose that means that if you spend a ton of money you will get great images? When I look at great art pieces I always check to see that they have great detail from way up close (satire alert).
I know it is thrilling to see a bug on a leaf printed a quarter inch in diameter rendered crisply in an 8ft panorama. I admit to having fallen into that trap also at times. If the viewer emotional response isn't there is it a successful image? As always, the best camera is the one you are actually using and creating images that are meaningful to you. Ray
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........................... If the viewer emotional response isn't there is it a successful image? ...................................
Ray
It's successful if the photographer likes it. Anything else is gravy.
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The Leica S is weather resistant, has outstanding native lenses, and adapters for Hasselblad H (with full AF and aperture control), Pentax 645 and other lenses (w/ manual everything) are available.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3214761610/leica-s2-against-megapixel-arms-race
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great ...
a little respite from absolute confusion all over...
I seem to have gravitated towards a decision:
step one: decide and buy a tech camera system (my next forum question- if information is not already there) 8)
step two: rent a back. try the system, then buy.
thanks guys...