Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: Andres Bonilla on February 13, 2013, 03:53:06 pm
-
Jerry came to California when he was 3 years old undocumented with his grandma; his dream was to serve in the army so he enlisted as a paratrooper, after several tours he came back to work as roofer and he admits he had trouble coping so he started using drugs. He went to therapy with his army buddies and they were waited for him, they wanted to know about his immigration status; he was told not to worry he was a veteran. He was deported immediately; he was left in Tijuana with his broken Spanish. The next day he went back to the US, he jus walked in. He was caught a month later and banned for life from the US. He told me he used to make 30 dollars an hour as a roofer, now he makes 30 cents an hour. He lives in this small place where he helps other deported veterans. The worst part is not staying with his daughter, his wife told him her health is deteriorating and she believes is the stress, she told him she loves him but she needs to move on. He still believes his actions are the reason for his deportation, he should not have gotten involved with drugs, he should have not taken for granted his legality. I always thought I was an American, he told me.
-
A 3-year old is hardly responsible for being in this country illegally. And I'm sorry, but anyone who puts their ass on the line for this country deserves automatic citizenship along with their honorable discharge from the military.
-
+1. We agree again, Doug. :D
-
A 3-year old is hardly responsible for being in this country illegally. And I'm sorry, but anyone who puts their ass on the line for this country deserves automatic citizenship along with their honorable discharge from the military.
I agree but the VA seems overwhelmed with a myriad of problems and quite frankly deported veterans are at the end of the list. Some of the fallen soldiers get the medal but their families not the benefits; it is a serious problem, they are two very different government entities.
-
@ medalla--
This is a strong photograph that is also near perfectly executed. The central subject appears to be in his comfortable surroundings and there is a wealth of content to examine along with the subject. I think while there is a ton of content in the photograph, there is none that seem extraneous. I can't zoom in, but there would be lots to examine closely and hold attention, and fill in the blanks about the subject. Anything removed would make the photo less than it is. This photo also elicits an emotional response that is present from the moment I laid eyes on it. Powerful, compelling and technically excellent photograph.
-
Jerry came to California when he was 3 years old undocumented with his grandma; his dream was to serve in the army so he enlisted as a paratrooper
so how it is possible that US Army hires (recruits) somebody who is undocumented ? aren't they doing any simple background checks like matching SSN# to the name/DOB/etc ? or that guy just invented a story ?
-
And I'm sorry, but anyone who puts their ass on the line for this country deserves automatic citizenship along with their honorable discharge from the military.
there are provisions (and they were for ages) for permanent residents to get US citizenship = http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/m-599.pdf
however the issue is different... you need to be a permanent resident at least to join the army or there was for a while a small exception (limited number) for non immigrants who were legally admitted = http://www.goarmy.com/info/mavni.html
http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf
-
Things seem to have changed in recent years, but signing up for the army used to be a pretty viable path to immigration.
-
+1. We agree again, Doug. :D
+2
-
+1. We agree again, Doug. :D
+3.
-
The photo is very nice. I wish I could zoom in to read the details.
The story is stranger than fiction. Unbelievably sad, and makes me realize how incompetent our government is.
-
Things seem to have changed in recent years, but signing up for the army used to be a pretty viable path to immigration.
never was (do not mix immigration = when non immigrant receives a status of a permanent resident with the situation when permanent resident = already immigrated legally applies for US citizenship) - read the last page of the http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf ... numbers were peanuts and were allowed only in certain limited periods of time.
-
The story is stranger than fiction. Unbelievably sad, and makes me realize how incompetent our government is.
the story is clearly invented to serve as a cheap ad for the photo... if that undocumented alien used fake documents to join the armed forces then it is a good reason to prosecute him and also find and prosecute those recruiters who did not catch such blatant infiltration or rather were driven by greed to facilitate that to happen.
-
@ medalla--
This is a strong photograph that is also near perfectly executed. The central subject appears to be in his comfortable surroundings and there is a wealth of content to examine along with the subject. I think while there is a ton of content in the photograph, there is none that seem extraneous. I can't zoom in, but there would be lots to examine closely and hold attention, and fill in the blanks about the subject. Anything removed would make the photo less than it is. This photo also elicits an emotional response that is present from the moment I laid eyes on it. Powerful, compelling and technically excellent photograph.
Thank you very much for your comment! Yes his environment elicits chaos but as much as he tries to keep it together, his world has unraveled. He was the one who started the support program but he seems overwhelmed most of the time.
-
so how it is possible that US Army hires (recruits) somebody who is undocumented ? aren't they doing any simple background checks like matching SSN# to the name/DOB/etc ? or that guy just invented a story ?
Things may have changed after terrorist attacks but for the most part a criminal background check was done. These guys are american in everyway, they speak perfect english, they went to high school in USA, they follow american sports, they bought houses, they worked in the USA and like many others( Liliana Plata, 25,from Mexico, who assumed the identify of another woman in order to join the Air Force in 1999 and Danny Lightfoot, a fraudulently enlisted Marine from the Bahamas who was ultimately permitted to remain in the Corps) They just got in thru the cracks. They didn't even used fraudulent papers.
-
there are provisions (and they were for ages) for permanent residents to get US citizenship = http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/m-599.pdf
however the issue is different... you need to be a permanent resident at least to join the army or there was for a while a small exception (limited number) for non immigrants who were legally admitted = http://www.goarmy.com/info/mavni.html
http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf
During their situation the rules were a bit different. It also depends on how far behind the particular branch of the armed forces is in its recruiting goals. The article from the Village Voice says: "While it’s Army policy to enlist only citizens and legal residents, the service gets more flexible during wartime. “In any particular case, separation for an erroneous or fraudulent enlistment may be appropriate,” Lieutenant Colonel Pamela Hart, of the public affairs office, wrote in an e-mail. “In other cases, a commander may determine that a soldier has served so meritoriously that he or she may recommend an exception.”
Except if the soldier commits a grave error or the "war time" criteria is no longer valid.
-
Things seem to have changed in recent years, but signing up for the army used to be a pretty viable path to immigration.
Yep but now is only a proposal.
" The Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors (DREAM) Act is a bipartisan bill that would provide a path to legal residence for undocumented young people who were brought to the United States as children. The conditions: They must graduate from high school, demonstrate good moral character, and -- to keep their legal status -- complete at least two years of higher education or at least two years service in the U.S. military."
-
The photo is very nice. I wish I could zoom in to read the details.
The story is stranger than fiction. Unbelievably sad, and makes me realize how incompetent our government is.
Thanks! Well is not only the government, lots of folks do not agree with a path to residency, much less citizenship just because you are a veteran.
-
never was (do not mix immigration = when non immigrant receives a status of a permanent resident with the situation when permanent resident = already immigrated legally applies for US citizenship) - read the last page of the http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf ... numbers were peanuts and were allowed only in certain limited periods of time.
Yep, a retired military officer and attorney wrotte this. " About 65,000 such eligible students graduate from U.S. high schools each year, but upon graduation, these young people, who include honor roll students, star athletes and junior ROTC members, hit a wall.
Instead of advancing to college or the military and later repaying the investment that taxpayers made in their education, they live in fear of being discovered by the Department of Homeland Security and deported to their "home" country, even if it is a country they cannot remember and where they have no friends, family or support."
-
the story is clearly invented to serve as a cheap ad for the photo... if that undocumented alien used fake documents to join the armed forces then it is a good reason to prosecute him and also find and prosecute those recruiters who did not catch such blatant infiltration or rather were driven by greed to facilitate that to happen.
What????????? The story is going to air on national television with the Veteran Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security involved, don't you think they would expose a lie before this airs? This guy is not the only one, there are hundreds of them all over. Driven by greed? What do they get? What do you get by serving in Korea, Kosovo or the Persian Gulf other than the satisfaction of serving your country? Clearly invented? Why !to post in a photographic forum? Sir, please do some reading before you make moronic comments.
This from the OC register "Yes, some illegal immigrants have lied to enlist in the military. They're in good company. Like that of U.S. Marine Jack Lucas, who was awarded the Medal of Honor at age 17 after lying about his age to enlist as a 14-year-old. Lying to gain the opportunity to serve and fight for the country you call home is not run-of-the-mill immigration fraud. It should be made clear that those who go this route will be discharged once found out, and will not gain residence or citizenship from lying. If they are successful in joining, they will get the chance to fight for their country--no more and no less."
-
Things may have changed after terrorist attacks but for the most part a criminal background check was done.
for the most part, really... so what the SSN# that he was using and where did he get it ?
assumed the identify of another woman... a fraudulently enlisted...They didn't even used fraudulent papers.
reread yourself :D... and whoever allowed to remain in Corps that is US DOD decision... US citizenship and immigration fraud is not.
-
During their situation the rules were a bit different.
no rules were not different... you have to be at least a legally admitted non immigrant to enlist if US DOD has such a program (and they had recently for a limited number of slots, specific skills)... that guy was not, why do you try to protect the immigration fraud and army recruiters fraud to get a commission ? to peddle a photo ?
The article from the Village Voice says: "While it’s Army policy to enlist only citizens and legal residents, the service gets more flexible during wartime.
and that is why US DOD had a regulation (see example above) allowing enlisting legally admitted non residents who came here legally using non immigrant visas - that is in addition to citizens/permanent residents and US nationals... at no point in time during "their situation" US DOD was allowing to enlist illegal/undocumented aliens.
-
Yep, a retired military officer and attorney wrotte this. " About 65,000 such eligible students graduate from U.S. high schools each year, but upon graduation, these young people, who include honor roll students, star athletes and junior ROTC members, hit a wall.
Instead of advancing to college or the military and later repaying the investment that taxpayers made in their education, they live in fear of being discovered by the Department of Homeland Security and deported to their "home" country, even if it is a country they cannot remember and where they have no friends, family or support."
they can advance to college if they want and able... much more people than 65K (you are not saying that 100% of them are "honor roll students, star athletes and junior ROTC members", are you :D) are legally coming to study in USA legally on F1 student visas each year (300K+ in fact) and then, if they want, they work hard to legally get their permanent residency by finding employers at no taxpayers expense at all and by proving that they are useful in a competition w/ others... and not just because somebody smuggle them across the border.
-
This thread is at risk of turning into a political discussion. I suggest taking it to private messages or something, perhaps?
-
The story is going to air on national television with the Veteran Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security involved, don't you think they would expose a lie before this airs?
so did anybody dared to ask him a simple question on air - where and how did you get your SSN# ? the end of story...
This guy is not the only one, there are hundreds of them all over. Driven by greed? What do they get? What do you get by serving in Korea, Kosovo or the Persian Gulf other than the satisfaction of serving your country?
this is not his country... if we wants that - come legally, do not break the laws... if the country wants exchange blood for citizenship - look @ France and their Foreign Legion, but "When Rome went out and hired mercenary soldiers, Rome fell." (c) Dwight Eisenhower, 1951...
This from the OC register "Yes, some illegal immigrants have lied to enlist in the military. They're in good company. Like that of U.S. Marine Jack Lucas, who was awarded the Medal of Honor at age 17 after lying about his age to enlist as a 14-year-old. Lying to gain the opportunity to serve and fight for the country you call home is not run-of-the-mill immigration fraud. It should be made clear that those who go this route will be discharged once found out, and will not gain residence or citizenship from lying. If they are successful in joining, they will get the chance to fight for their country--no more and no less."
to use Jack Lucas to justify an immigration fraud is beyond the pale...
-
This thread is at risk of turning into a political discussion. I suggest taking it to private messages or something, perhaps?
Yes it is and the reason of my answer was that I was told I was basically a liar, my comments are not to suggest that I encouraged or share the believe that it is ok to lie in order to enlist the army, I don't even believe these soldiers are complete victims of the system and they have admitted their msitakes. My posts were to Vladimirovich that the situations portrayed DOES happen and it is not a "cheap" attempt and selling a photo.
-
This thread is at risk of turning into a political discussion. I suggest taking it to private messages or something, perhaps?
look the topic by itself (the very original posting) is a political discussion... and OP is using that to market a photo (because its only value is that it depicts an illegal alien who failed in the process of committing an immigration fraud)... it is very clear... like our politicians are using the issue of illegal aliens just to gain seats... just means to an end
-
so did anybody dared to ask him a simple question on air - where and how did you get your SSN# ? the end of story...
this is not his country... if we wants that - come legally, do not break the laws... if the country wants exchange blood for citizenship - look @ France and their Foreign Legion, but "When Rome went out and hired mercenary soldiers, Rome fell." (c) Dwight Eisenhower, 1951...
I am sure if you ask someone who has lived most of his live here this is their country.
-
look the topic by itself (the very original posting) is a political discussion... and OP is using that to market a photo (because its only value is that it depicts an illegal alien who failed in the process of committing an immigration fraud)... it is very clear... like our politicians are using the issue of illegal aliens just to gain seats... just means to an end
And my benefit from post this photo is? I need to market this photo because......? The only reason I originally answer your post was because basically you stated the photo was a sham. If you or anybody else believes that he deserves to be where he is, you are completely in your right. It is a democratic forum, just like any other in the Internet. Your political views are not of my concern really, actually I welcome your POV on my photo.....but don't call me a liar. My posts were to show you that many undocumented immigrants have enlisted and have been deported for some reason. How they managed to enlist with all the provisions to make sure that only legally able young men and women do it, I don't know because each case is different.
How many of these young Latino recruits are illegal immigrants? “Nobody knows,” says Flavia Jimenez, an immigration policy analyst at the National Council of La Raza. “But what we do know is that recruiters may not be up to speed on everybody’s legal status. … We also know that a significant number of [illegals] have died in Iraq.” The recruitment of illegal immigrants is particularly intense in Los Angeles, where 75 percent of the high school students are Latino. “A lot of our students are undocumented,” says Arlene Inouye, a teacher at Garfield High School in East Los Angeles, “and it’s common knowledge that recruiters offer green cards.” Inouye is the coordinator and founder of the Coalition Against Militarism in Our Schools (CAMS), a counter-recruitment organization that educates teenagers about deceptive recruiting practices. “The practice is pretty widespread all over the nation,” she says, “especially in California and Texas. … The recruiters tell them, ‘you’ll be helping your family.’ “
I am not saying that it is ok to enlist in the army without proper documentation but I am saying is that their story is real and your assumption that is all fake is wrong.
-
This is a fascinating photograph and an interesting and important story.
Please terminate all name calling and accusations.
Michael
-
OK, politics aside, I do like the photograph.
But I have to say that it kind of has the feel of a diorama in a wax museum and the man in it doesn't look entirely real to me.
I'm sure it's just the lighting.
-
This is a fascinating photograph and an interesting and important story.
Please terminate all name calling and accusations.
Michael
Thank you! I will post more photos of the series.
-
OK, politics aside, I do like the photograph.
But I have to say that it kind of has the feel of a diorama in a wax museum and the man in it doesn't look entirely real to me.
I'm sure it's just the lighting.
Thank Doug! That is interesting, it was very dark with a few light bulbs in the bathroom and kitchen. Would you have used more fill to open up the shadows?
-
Thank Doug! That is interesting, it was very dark with a few light bulbs in the bathroom and kitchen. Would you have used more fill to open up the shadows?
The whole thing looks like a set to me, not like someone's home. The more I look at the scene the more artificial it seems. The uniform, the folded flag and the discharge certificate on the side table, the picture of JFK, the Airborne banner on the wall, the pictures of soldiers on the table in front of him. And then there's the way he's looking blankly off camera. It all looks staged to make a "statement" and IMO it's laying it on a bit thick.
As far as the lights, I'm not sure what I'd do. But it looks stagey and overly dramatic to me and the way he's sitting is odd. He looks like he's in an underground bunker planning a battle campaign. I think I'd connect to the guy and his story better if the scene and lighting were more naturalistic. Having him looking at the camera might help too.
-
The whole thing looks like a set to me, not like someone's home. The more I look at the scene the more artificial it seems. The uniform, the folded flag and the discharge certificate on the side table, the picture of JFK, the Airborne banner on the wall, the pictures of soldiers on the table in front of him. And then there's the way he's looking blankly off camera. It all looks staged to make a "statement" and IMO it's laying it on a bit thick.
As far as the lights, I'm not sure what I'd do. But it looks stagey and overly dramatic to me and the way he's sitting is odd. He looks like he's in an underground bunker planning a battle campaign. I think I'd connect to the guy and his story better if the scene and lighting were more naturalistic. Having him looking at the camera might help too.
Doug thansk for your reply! Wow I guess this is the case where reality exceeds filmaking, I am sure a production designer would have a tough time recreating these guys place. To be honest with you I missed the discharge certificate and I still don't see it. Actually this was the second location we chose to do the interview; the first one was Fabian's room, another vet, but his was plastered with airborne photos and a few were ripped. My reporter thought it was self serving and the torn photos too much of a dramatic statement. You have to realize this is a 2 bedroom place were 5 guys live, 5 histories crammed in there. The JFK photo belongs to Barrios the oldest one, the flag belongs to Jerry but to the right, Fabian had a photo of president Obama, to me that would create a totally different discussion, so instead of moving it which is a capital sin in the eyes of the field producer I framed it out. Now the stare had two elements both technical and subjective; technical because even though I was shooting 1600 ASA, during the interview he was gesturing and I kept on getting him blurred. I do not mind blurred hands but his face was blurred, so I waited until he paused for a bit, this came not when he talked about the deportation but when he talked about the mother of his children, the who told him about the consequences of the drugs, the one who told him to marry her and he never did.The subjective aspect was that in thelong interview he also told us funny stories from the army and in my mind, having him smiling and laughing did not go with the essence of the story. We did not tell him ok, now be sad, look ahead, I rather waited and snapped the photos when in my eye they were right. I have few including one he dropped his head but that one looked too much to me. Talking about the uniforms, they have them in the bathroom hanging there and I love my video shot of the doorway framing the uniforms, the news director thouhgt they looked staged, we explained him that they used the steam to get the wrinkle out, that shot was edited out. The place was full of things I wanted to shoot, like the big branch they used as a Christmas tree with all the dog tags hanging, we shooted in January so those were edited out. The lighting is all my call, it was at dusk and I used the bare bulbs in the kitchen, lamp and bathroom with one low wattage tungsten light with a rungun diffusion. That was it. I had plenty of lights in the truck but again, this was documentary style and a hair light or a background light with a pattern would habe been out of place. This was as naturalistic and less intrusive as I could.
I hope I managed to explain my choices understanding that no 2 photogs would shot something the same way :)
-
Doug thansk for your reply! Wow I guess this is the case where reality exceeds filmaking, I am sure a production designer would have a tough time recreating these guys place. To be honest with you I missed the discharge certificate and I still don't see it.
It looks like there are actually two Honorable Discharge certificates, immediately to the right of the JFK photo.
In any case, I understand what you were working with and the choices you made. I can only say what the final product looks like to me. There's no question in my mind that technically the picture is quite well done. I guess it comes down to deciding between recording a scene and revealing the person. I feel in this case the scene overwhelmed the person and we don't get very close to the real him.
I would have brought the camera down to his eye level, gone in a little tighter on him and shot with the lens wide open. By shooting from above him with a deep focus you made him just another element in the scene. I would have let him be the focus with the room in the bokeh behind him so that maybe only the white stars in the folded flag would be barely recognizable to make a subtle point. If i wanted to show his certificates and flags and his other military stuff I would have shot those separately as still lives.