Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nataimages on February 11, 2013, 10:37:14 pm

Title: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 11, 2013, 10:37:14 pm
Hi,

I've been waiting for this moment for a long time... I am ready to buy a medium format.
Because for the last 10 years I've been using 35mm, I am overwhelmed with the information I find on the Internet and on forums. I would really appreciate your advice here.

My budget: around 20 - 25K

The conditions I shoot and type of photography I do:

- I mostly do photojournalistic and art work.
- I shoot in temperatures ranging from +50 to -50.
- I am planning on using this camera in Artic circle in about 1.5 month.
- Mostly use the camera outdoors.
- Shoot film for long art projects.

What do I look in the camera:
- Film and Digital back.
- Interchangable lenses. I would love to invest in lenses I could keep for a longer time.
- Lenses that communicate with a camera. AF would be nice but will look into MF.
- Easy to use.
- Weight does matter for me because I hike for very long time.
- Built-in light meter would be nice as I shoot a lot hand-held.
- Very good in low-light
- 6x6 film back would be nice but if the camera is right I could go with 6x4.5

What camera:
I have primary been looking at Hasselblad (not sure what model here as the latest models are all digital and dont take film back), Rollei hy6 mod2 (not sure how much different this camera is from Rollei hy6 but love what it has to offer), PhaseOne (dont know much about it but would love to know as I read a lot of good things), Mamiya (I also know very little about this camera).

I requested demonstrations with Mamya, PhaseOne and Hasselblad, not sure if I can even try to use Rollei in Australia but would be nice.

I would really appreciate any comments here as I need to make my decision during this week. I would love to know why you like certain camera and what camera do you think would be suitable for the conditions I work in.

Sorry for my English as its not my first language.

Natalia
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 11, 2013, 11:18:18 pm
Natalia
Just my 2 cents worth......... DSLR's like the Nikon D800e are so good these days for a general purpose camera and for the uses you state I would invest in a D800e plus 2-3 great lenses. Just my opinion, to increase IQ beyond state of the art DSLR's you need a 60-80 mpix digital back on a technical camera with expensive German lenses. That would be hard to do on your budget. My IQ180 is significantly improved when I have it mounted on the Cambo WRS/with Rodenstock HR lenses compared to it mounted on a Phase One DF camera with Mamiya and Schneider SLR lenses.  When I compare my D800e w/ Leica R lenses to my IQ180/Cambo/Rod_HR the IQ of the Medium format image is higher but when pixel peeping the Nikon pixels are sharper with more DR. With the Nikon you would have access to stabilized lenses too.
Marc
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 11, 2013, 11:51:35 pm
Hi,

When you pixel peep at actual pixels you see how the camera performs at the pixel level, you don't see the advantage of having more pixels. You don't get the whole picture.

Marc has a point for sure, he has Pentax K5, Nikon D800E, IQ180 and also had a P45+. So he has experience.

I would just add, whatever you buy, test it to find out everything works and is properly adjusted. That applies to all cameras DSLRs, too.

My understanding is that some dealers essentially test all cameras sold to make sure everything is within specifications. That may be a consideration when choosing a dealer.

I recently got a PM from a famous expedition type photographer who just switched from Nikon DSLRs to MF (IQ160) and he really enjoys both pixels and colors.

Best regards
Erik


Natalia
Just my 2 cents worth......... DSLR's like the Nikon D800e are so good these days for a general purpose camera and for the uses you state I would invest in a D800e plus 2-3 great lenses. Just my opinion, to increase IQ beyond state of the art DSLR's you need a 60-80 mpix digital back on a technical camera with expensive German lenses. That would be hard to do on your budget. My IQ180 is significantly improved when I have it mounted on the Cambo WRS/with Rodenstock HR lenses compared to it mounted on a Phase One DF camera with Mamiya and Schneider SLR lenses.  When I compare my D800e w/ Leica R lenses to my IQ180/Cambo/Rod_HR the IQ of the Medium format image is higher but when pixel peeping the Nikon pixels are sharper with more DR. With the Nikon you would have access to stabilized lenses too.
Marc
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 11, 2013, 11:54:14 pm
Hi Marc,

It's very interesting what you said.

I've been shooting on Canon DSLR for the last 10 years and want to move to medium mainly because I want a camera that will allow me to do both: analogue and digital without carrying 2 cameras and two set of lenses. It gets very heavy on long trips.

I also print large for my exhibitions which is nice to have that option. I find that if I stick to digital I look back at stories I've done 9 years ago and none of those files are really usable anymore in today's market. I guess thats where I get annoyed.

So as such you couldn't tell the difference between Nikon and Mamiya with PhaseOne?

Thank you so much. I am considering may be I should stay with Canon DSLR... though I feel like I miss film too much.

Natalia
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 11, 2013, 11:56:43 pm
Hi Erik,

I live in Australia and considering of buying a camera somewhere in Europe before my trip to Actic in end of March. Don't know much about dealers but might ask you later, if you dont mind.

I really appreciate your comment. Thank you.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 12, 2013, 12:14:07 am
Hi Natalie,

Thanks for being so responsive.

I have made a small writeup comparing MF and DSLRs based on images I got from Marc McCalmont and Tim Ashley.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts

The article has been checked by Tim Ashley and Tim Parkin and also Marc (I think). All those guys are great, they have also been there and done that.

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/blog

http://www.timparkin.co.uk/

Some guys have MF and just love it. Guy Mancuso is one of them: http://www.guymancusophotography.com/

Guy Mancuso and Jack Fletcher have http://www.getdpi.com

Good luck with your choice of equipment and your travel.

One bit of advice. Buy a second camera, a backup is always nice to have. I always carry two DSLRs on travel but in worst case I can rely on my Sony RX100.

Best regards
Erik



Hi Erik,

I live in Australia and considering of buying a camera somewhere in Europe before my trip to Actic in end of March. Don't know much about dealers but might ask you later, if you dont mind.

I really appreciate your comment. Thank you.

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: EinstStein on February 12, 2013, 12:20:21 am
A few months ago, I was trying to sell my Contax 645 kit + Hasselblad CF-MS 39mp back + the lenses 35mm + 80mm + 120mm + 210mm + 45-90mm zoom + WLF + batteries, etc. for the price under your budget. Even so it's hard to sell.

You can use the above set as your baseline, except you might want to add a second body and a second 80mm as back up. For journalist style, you may also want to replace the 120mm (manual focus only) with the 140mm (AF). You may also want to add a 45mm or 55mm lens, but don't try to take all the above lenses, they will be way to heavy too carry.  

I think you can get a pretty good set of MF system if you can live with used ones.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 12, 2013, 12:21:20 am
I went from a Canon 5DII to a Nikon D800E a significant improvement
I also went from a P45+ on a Mamiya 645 AFDII to an IQ180 on a Cambo with Rodenstock HR lenses also a significant improvement
Make sure you include the D800e/good glass in your evaluation
Marc
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 12:34:46 am
Thank you. How did you find Contax 645?
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 12:35:54 am
Hi Marc,

I will do a test drive of Nikon 800.

God it looks like I'll never make up my mind.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 12:51:25 am
Hi Erik,

Thank you so much for all these links, I will definitely read through them after work. The suggestion about two cameras is quite valid. I should look into it. I am in the process of selling all my Canon gear at the moment.

Natalia
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 12, 2013, 01:01:38 am
Hi Natalie,

These images are from Marc's comparison of the IQ180 and the D800E.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Images/MFMythsReality/McCalmont_upsize.jpg)
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Images/MFMythsReality/McCalmont_2.jpg)

The images are from this page:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts?start=5

The pair on top is Nikon upsampled to IQ180 resolution the second one is IQ180 downsampled to Nikon D800E resolution. I don't think you would see much of a difference in A2-sized prints. Printing is a great equalizer.

If you stay with Canon and happen to have a 24-70/2.8, it seems that a lot of them wear out. Canon can fix them at reasonable cost.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/02/optical-tune-ups#more-12306
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/10/the-limits-of-variation
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts?start=5
I went from a Canon 5DII to a Nikon D800E a significant improvement
I also went from a P45+ on a Mamiya 645 AFDII to an IQ180 on a Cambo with Rodenstock HR lenses also a significant improvement
Make sure you include the D800e/good glass in your evaluation
Marc
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 12, 2013, 01:08:32 am
Hi,

I was thinking about your intention to use both film and digital. There are still Nikon and Canon cameras for film, I just checked.
A film based body could be a nice backup.

MF cameras with interchangable backs are nice, but many of the newer ones don't take film.

James Russel (known as BCooter on these forums) uses a couple of Contax 645 with elderly Phase One backs (P30?) for most of his  commercial work. He switched back to MF pretty much from DSLRs and he loves those cameras.


Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,

Thank you so much for all these links, I will definitely read through them after work. The suggestion about two cameras is quite valid. I should look into it. I am in the process of selling all my Canon gear at the moment.

Natalia
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 01:13:18 am
Does anyone used Rollei Hy6 mod 2? It looks like it has an option of film and digital back.

I guess its rare to find the camera I am looking for on a budget I have and I am asking too much from a camera. I just cant bear carrying so much equipment on such long trips...my back stars to suffer :-)



Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 12, 2013, 01:32:42 am
Hy Natalie,

There are quite a few enthusiastic Hy6 users on these forums.

This gentleman is from DHW Fototechnik GMBH and is probably the right person to ask:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=70888

Anders_HK, has Hy6 and is very enthusiastic and also very helpful, you find him here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23705

I'm sure it is absolutely OK to PM both persons if you have questions.

Best regards
Erik
Does anyone used Rollei Hy6 mod 2? It looks like it has an option of film and digital back.

I guess its rare to find the camera I am looking for on a budget I have and I am asking too much from a camera. I just cant bear carrying so much equipment on such long trips...my back stars to suffer :-)




Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: EinstStein on February 12, 2013, 02:16:23 am
How do I find Contax 645?
I also have M9 + Zeiss ZM 25MM + SUMMICRON 50MM, + ELMARIT-M 90MM + ELMAR 135MM. If I compare M9 set with the Contax 645, ignore the weight and portability, the obvious win is Contax 645's gradation.
I also have Hasselblad V and a similar set of lenses, ignore the convenience again (but this time Contax is the winner though), Contax 645 wins the micro contrast.
I also have Kodak SLR/C with a set of Canon L lenses, again ignore the weight and convenience, well, nothing the Kodak/Canon-L can be even close.
I've tried Nikon 800E and Canon 5DIII. I think those two win hands down in the tele-lens range, but the gradation is nowhere close to M9, not to mention Contax 645.

The bottom line, size does matter. If anyone try to convince you otherwise, use your comment sense. The difference between the MF 645 and the FF 35mm is similar to the difference between the FF 35mm to APS-C, or APS-C to M43, or M43 to Nikon 1, or Nikon 1 to Dlux-4.  If you are convinced that FF 35mm makes more sense than MF 645, than you should ask yourself if  a APS-C also makes more sense than a FF 35mm, or vice versa.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: DHW-JHartje on February 12, 2013, 03:12:37 am
My budget: around 20 - 25K

The conditions I shoot and type of photography I do:

- I mostly do photojournalistic and art work.
- I shoot in temperatures ranging from +50 to -50.
- I am planning on using this camera in Artic circle in about 1.5 month.
- Mostly use the camera outdoors.
- Shoot film for long art projects.

What do I look in the camera:
- Film and Digital back.
- Interchangable lenses. I would love to invest in lenses I could keep for a longer time.
- Lenses that communicate with a camera. AF would be nice but will look into MF.
- Easy to use.
- Weight does matter for me because I hike for very long time.
- Built-in light meter would be nice as I shoot a lot hand-held.
- Very good in low-light
- 6x6 film back would be nice but if the camera is right I could go with 6x4.5

Hi Natalia,

I try to answer some of your questions. But first of all I have ome by myself:

Budget around 20-25K --> you mean $ right? Then I think you will have to work with used products, or you start with new body+ 1or2 lenses + used digital back

I shoot in temperatures ranging from +50 to -50. --> have you worked under these conditions allready? Which camera did you use? Film or digital? because as far as I now working with a digital camera below -40°C is kind of heavy. Do you have special housing or "warming therapy" for your camera?

You plan to come europe? I suggest you visit our factory and do some testings if you have the time to do so.

In my oppinion, the combination of your requests (shooting outdoor, film&digital, 6x6 & 6x4,5) fits very well to our camera. But as this is a huge investment and a longterm decision you shouldn't take the final advice for your decision from a (biased) manufacturer. Of course I will try to help you and provide you all information needed.

Best regards from good (c)old Germany,

Johannes 
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 12, 2013, 03:29:45 am
Natalia
Shooting MF digital and MF film with the same camera has some significant limitations.

First of all film when limited to the small 645 format is of limited quality.
Second neither Hasselblad or Phase one fully support film. The Phase One DF and DF plus cannot use a film back.
Hasselblad does still make a film body, but it's digital bodies do not support film backs.
You could go with a Contax 645, but I would not recommend an old second had camera for 1.5 months in the arctic.

My advice would be to get a film camera and stick with 35mm DSLR cameras for your digital and reportage needs.

If you are looking for a lightweight high quality film camera to complement your dslrs take a look at the Fuji GF670 80mm 3.2.
It is a folding 6x7 camera that can also shoot 6x6.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQElAh4oYkg2a2nKLYvRD1KEkoZslo_At7DKAcSwbMwGSnzGW5uPg)

Another ting to consider is that with your budget you would be looking at a 30 or 40MP MF digital. There is really no significant quality between a
D800E and a 40 MP hasselblad or Phase One.


Here is a direct Nikon vs 40MP Hasselblad

Full frame

(http://www.photigy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Nikon-d800e-test-review-sample-image.jpg)

Crops

(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69391.0;attach=64261;image)

Photogy did this test and a forum member here did the processing for the side by side photo.

Photogy article here:

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/ (http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/)

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 12, 2013, 03:36:59 am
though I feel like I miss film too much.

What aspect of film do you miss?

As far as I am concerned,... I would consider the following pain points:
- Having to change 120 rolls every 30 images by -30C,
- The delightful time spent removing dust specs from scans,
- The bulk of film rolls compared to 128GB memory cards,
- ...

For the kind of work you are considering, I would go for 2xD800e with a vertical grip (it takes larger batteries) and a few Zeiss/Nikkor/Leica lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: amsp on February 12, 2013, 04:18:08 am
My advice would be to not ask for advice on a forum, especially this one, and go try out stuff for yourself. It's the only way you'll get an unbiased view on what's right for you.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 04:32:57 am
Hi Johannes,

Thank you very much for your response. I will try to answer your questions and ask more of mine.

Budget around 20-25K --> you mean $ right?


That's correct.

Then I think you will have to work with used products, or you start with new body+ 1or2 lenses + used digital back

What digital back then you recommend on the budget?
I cant also figure out how much difference I would notice in the type of work I do between hy6 and hy6 mod2. I heard that I would be able to upgrade the camera if I want later on. I saw you have hy6 on special at the moment.

I also cant quite understand the difference between AF and AFD lenses. I would ideally get 3 lenses: 80mm, 50mm, 180mm.


I shoot in temperatures ranging from +50 to -50. --> have you worked under these conditions already? Which camera did you use? Film or digital? because as far as I now working with a digital camera below -40°C is kind of heavy. Do you have special housing or "warming therapy" for your camera?


I used video camera in those conditions and I had a lot of problems, so I solved the problem with housing like that: http://www.pronto1.ru/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/185c648d31365a5bcc264cdfff5c41f7.jpg

I would have to look for a solution in photo camera. Not even sure as of yet if it exists.

You plan to come europe? I suggest you visit our factory and do some testings if you have the time to do so.

I do have a limited time as I have to start the shoot on Mach 25 and I would be flying directly to Europe to pick up the camera and straight for the shoot. Which in my situations it makes it quite difficult because I cant find a lot of cameras in Australia to test drive them.

In my opinion, the combination of your requests (shooting outdoor, film&digital, 6x6 & 6x4,5) fits very well to our camera. But as this is a huge investment and a longterm decision you shouldn't take the final advice for your decision from a (biased) manufacturer. Of course I will try to help you and provide you all information needed.

That;s pretty much what I loved about the specs of this camera and wanted to know more about it.

I also have couple of more questions:
1) How sturdy is the camera?
2) Is there a rain jacket for it?
3) How easy is it to handle?

I am planning on investing into more lenses throughout the year and better digital back as the time goes on, its just the initial choice I am struggling with.

Thank you so much.
Natalia
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 04:36:55 am
Hi,

Thank you for your response. i am considering this option. Just getting a film camera as a second camera. I appreciate your advice.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 04:38:35 am
The reason why I shoot film is the following: I do a lot of art projects where museums and galleries take my negatives for collection. i cant do this with digital. Thats the main reason.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 04:40:08 am
I am fully aware of it. I just would like to see what the options are. May be I am not aware of options there might be.

In the end of the day it would be my choice what camera I choose to go with.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: yaya on February 12, 2013, 04:57:01 am
My advice would be to not ask for advice on a forum, especially this one, and go try out stuff for yourself. It's the only way you'll get an unbiased view on what's right for you.

I think it's OK to ask for advice here but also to filter and wade through the responses carefully, which can be hard for a newbie who does not know the posters, their credentials, background and/ or their agendas, if there are any...

Natalia, in Australia you can speak to Craig Robinson at Ted's in Melbourne, he should be able to help you also with trying an Hy6/ AFi body with a Leaf back. His contacts can be found here: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/fal_australia.asp (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/fal_australia.asp)

If you're in Europe and would like to try one of our products please let me know and I'll arrange that for you. My contact details are in my signature below

Safe travel!

Yair
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 05:05:12 am
Thanks Yair. Do you know anyone in Sydney by any chance? It would safe me a flight to Melbourne! Other then that I am prepared to make this flight just to try the camera.

I think it's OK to ask for advice here but also to filter and wade through the responses carefully, which can be hard for a newbie who does not know the posters, their credentials, background and/ or their agendas, if there are any...

Natalia, in Australia you can speak to Craig Robinson at Ted's in Melbourne, he should be able to help you also with trying an Hy6/ AFi body with a Leaf back. His contacts can be found here: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/fal_australia.asp (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/fal_australia.asp)

If you're in Europe and would like to try one of our products please let me know and I'll arrange that for you. My contact details are in my signature below

Safe travel!

Yair
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: yaya on February 12, 2013, 05:15:20 am
Thanks Yair. Do you know anyone in Sydney by any chance? It would safe me a flight to Melbourne! Other then that I am prepared to make this flight just to try the camera.


Yes I've just sent you a PM with my colleague's contact details

Cheers

yair
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on February 12, 2013, 05:17:09 am
...When I compare my D800e w/ Leica R lenses to my IQ180/Cambo/Rod_HR the IQ of the Medium format image is higher but when pixel peeping the Nikon pixels are sharper with more DR. With the Nikon you would have access to stabilized lenses too.
Marc

Hi Marc, not to sidetrack the thread, but can you elaborate on which Leica R lenses you use on the D800? Thanks.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: MarkoRepse on February 12, 2013, 05:47:34 am
I agree with the statement that be careful what you read on forums. Its not a rare occurrence where opinion is misstated as fact. I also suggest doing your own tests. Online ones (while probably true) may or may not be accurate for your application.
To answer your question about the Hy6 mod2 vs the Hy6, the differences are here (scroll down): http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/en/rolleiflex-slr/rolleiflex-hy6-mod2.html
Both use film and digital and the body is upgradable at DHW.
Plug: I have a Hy6 kit for sale here http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=72772.0
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: MrSmith on February 12, 2013, 06:09:36 am
What about a Pentax 645 set-up? New digital body, s/h film body and a range of lenses that fits both* way cheaper than the Hblad/phase/HY6 options. And doesn't weigh a ton either.

*a Pentax user would need to confirm what lenses work with what body.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 12, 2013, 06:27:20 am
Hi Marc, not to sidetrack the thread, but can you elaborate on which Leica R lenses you use on the D800? Thanks.
I started with 3 zooms 21-35/3.5, 28-90/2.8-4.0, 70-200/4.0 with the 28-90 being outstanding
Then I added several primes 90/2.0 great bokeh, 180/3.4 razor sharp and the 280/4.0 razor sharp
the 3 zooms make a nice landscape set, same coatings, same "look" reasonable size and weight to carry around
Marc

ps Leitax adapters
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: tho_mas on February 12, 2013, 07:21:11 am
- (...) I shoot a lot hand-held
- Very good in low-light

I think these 2 requirements pretty much rule out MFD.
MFD shines at lower ISOs. Too, mirror/shutter shake is more of an issue than with DSLRs (larger mirror/shutter).
On the other hand... if ISO400/ISO800 is okay for you and if you feel fine to shoot at least with a monopod (as a kind of compromise between handheld and tripod shooting) ... then MFD might be a great choice for you.
Of course you should test it and use it extensively before you take it for a long travel (under extreme conditions).
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: nataimages on February 12, 2013, 07:27:44 am
I think these 2 requirements pretty much rule out MFD.
MFD shines at lower ISOs. Too, mirror/shutter shake is more of an issue than with DSLRs (larger mirror/shutter).
On the other hand... if ISO400/ISO800 is okay for you and if you feel fine to shoot at least with a monopod (as a kind of compromise between handheld and tripod shooting) ... then MFD might be a great choice for you.
Of course you should test it and use it extensively before you take it for a long travel (under extreme conditions).

Its a valid point. I might have to test drive this equipment before I make a leap to MF. I shoot a lot on monopod, so it shouldn't be an issue for me.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 12, 2013, 09:06:47 am
Hi,

The P645 is weather proof and seems to be very good. Regarding camera electronics it is about on par with other DSLRs.

Miles Hecker (of Wyofoto fame) owns one and is enthusiastic about it, you can contact him at info2@wyofoto.com .

http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt1.html

http://wyofoto.com/Pentax_645D/Pentax_645D_review_pt2.html

Also, check this thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50977.0

Lloyd Chambers (Diglloyd) has tested most of the Pentax 645D lense on his DAP site (subscription only): http://www.diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/Pentax645D/index.html

I perhaps should add that going on the trip of your life with brand new and untested equipment might not be the smartest thing to do. But clearly, you want the best stuff you can afford.

I had a bad day at Craters of the Moon National Monument in Idaho (USA) a couple of months ago. I had a brand new tripod from RRS, the leg joints came loose in two days, the Quick Release on the head also had issues and tripod mount on my lens got stuck. I could repair/fix all that same evening. FSCK can happen you know.

I'm very satisfied with RRS stuff and never had issues with my stuff before. Just to say that things can go bad. There is an advantage to stuff that has seen some use.

Best regards
Erik

What about a Pentax 645 set-up? New digital body, s/h film body and a range of lenses that fits both* way cheaper than the Hblad/phase/HY6 options. And doesn't weigh a ton either.

*a Pentax user would need to confirm what lenses work with what body.

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: alan_b on February 12, 2013, 10:14:22 am
With your time frame, cold temperatures, handheld shooting and budget, I'd spend my time getting a robust, redundant D800 system dialed in for this trip.  Not saying MF shouldn't eventually be your choice, but having a system in place and reliable for harsh conditions within a month sounds very stressful.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Sheldon N on February 12, 2013, 11:43:37 am
I think the best advice thus far is to take something on your trip that is 1) robust and 2) that you are familiar with.

Getting a brand new camera and heading straight to a shoot in extreme conditions does not sound like a recipe for success. Whatever camera you choose, the most important thing IMHO is that it does not interfere with your image making on the trip.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 12, 2013, 11:52:01 am
Naturally I am biased, but a Pentax 645D with a Pentax 645NII as the film body. Lenses work on both and having two complete cameras is a good backup. Both cameras have AF and naturally MF. The 645D is like a modern DSLR and has many nice features--multiple exposure, intervalometer, unlimited bulb, multi-point AF, interchangeable viewfinder screens, Auto ISO (and good ISO up to 1600), mirror lockup. IR remote, etc.

The cold weather performance on the 645D is very good--I have gone 6+ hours at subfreezing temperatures on one battery. The 645D body is weatherproof. Batteries are cheap and easily available. There are plenty of lenses.

Printing large is no problem--I print from a 44" large-format printer with the 44" on the short side.

The mirror is well dampened and I shoot with the 645D handheld all the time.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: gerald.d on February 12, 2013, 12:26:45 pm
OK, I'm going to throw a complete curve ball into the mix...

You say you've been waiting a long time for this, so make it special.

- I mostly do photojournalistic and art work.
Check.
- I shoot in temperatures ranging from +50 to -50.
Check.
- I am planning on using this camera in Artic circle in about 1.5 month.
Check.
- Mostly use the camera outdoors.
Check.
- Shoot film for long art projects.
Most definitely, check.

- Film and Digital back.
Yup.
- Interchangable lenses. I would love to invest in lenses I could keep for a longer time.
Yup.
- Lenses that communicate with a camera. AF would be nice but will look into MF.
Nope.
- Easy to use.
Yup.
- Weight does matter for me because I hike for very long time.
Absolutely.
- Built-in light meter would be nice as I shoot a lot hand-held.
Nope. But I'd argue you don't need one with practice and experience.
- Very good in low-light
MF digital will NOT satisfy you here. If "very good in low-light" is critical digitally, then walk away from MF and don't look back. BUT, that's where you can take advantage of shooting high ISO film.
- 6x6 film back would be nice but if the camera is right I could go with 6x4.5
Why stop there? How about 6x9?

In your shoes, I'd be seriously considering an ALPA 12TC with the 6x9 back. You should be able to pick that up, with a couple of lenses and necessary accessories for around $12-13K, leaving you just over $10K left which should get you a decent second hand back from a dealer.

Your shooting experience will be totally different to any of the other options being suggested here, and I really do believe it's worth considering.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 12, 2013, 12:32:24 pm
MF digital will NOT satisfy you here. If "very good in low-light" is critical digitally, then walk away from MF and don't look back. BUT, that's where you can take advantage of shooting high ISO film.

My Pentax 645D does better than any high ISO film in low light. No question about that. While it is limited to ISO 1600, it is doing just as well at 1600 as a 35mm DSLR.

Although, I agree a tech camera is an interesting choice.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 12, 2013, 12:34:18 pm
I agree with the proposal to consider a small tech camera.

In addition to the Alpa mentioned the Arca Factum (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/arca-swiss) and Cambo RC400 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/cambo-new-bodies). All three are high quality compact, precise lightweight, have varying film compatibility, advantages and disadvantages. They will survive virtually any weather (no electronic components, and a P1 back will hold up in the cold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgDsW8uTorY) just fine).

Quality, compact, fun to shoot (obviously very subjective), unique.

Also, hand holding a tech camera allows slower-than-expected shutter speeds with sharp results; it has no mirror and uses a leaf shutter.

I can't tell you if it will work for your shooting style and needs - nobody can. But I can tell you it's definitely worth your consideration given your criterium.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: gerald.d on February 12, 2013, 12:38:36 pm
My Pentax 645D does better than any high ISO film in low light. No question about that. While it is limited to ISO 1600, it is doing just as well at 1600 as a 35mm DSLR.

Although, I agree a tech camera is an interesting choice.

Thanks for the correction - I wasn't aware that the Pentax was so good at high ISO compared with film (although I guess the look would be different?).

It would probably be useful to know what kind of ISO Natalia is expecting to be able to utilise. Could be pretty key to the whole decision.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 12, 2013, 01:04:22 pm
The Pentax is like the ugly cousin in the MFD world dominate by Phase and Leaf. Pentax was able to really update MFD camera to today's standards. Phase and Leaf backs are nice, but they are really limited. I think we kind of forget about Pentax when we talk about MFD.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 12, 2013, 01:13:57 pm
Hi,

I have shot a lot of MF (Pentax 67) film and I never considered anything above ISO 100 useful.

My experience is essentially that 24 MP digital (Sony Alpha in my case) is superior to 120 film (Velvia and Ektar 100) in all aspects except resolution for high contrast subjects. I have used a semi pro CCD scanner, drum scanning can push the envelope a bit further.

MF digital has a weakness that the CCD sensors they are using has high readout noise. Modern CMOS based sensors can achieve very low readout noise at base ISO. Some other CMOS sensors (Canon, Nikon D3s and D4) can reach relatively low readout noise at relatively high ISOs. This is the main reason that CCDs are limited for high ISO work.

Weather anyone prefers film over digital or not has a lot to do with taste and perception.

Best regards
Erik


Thanks for the correction - I wasn't aware that the Pentax was so good at high ISO compared with film (although I guess the look would be different?).

It would probably be useful to know what kind of ISO Natalia is expecting to be able to utilise. Could be pretty key to the whole decision.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 12, 2013, 05:48:53 pm


Quality, compact, fun to shoot (obviously very subjective), unique.



At -50 degrees?

Fiddling around with focusing with the types of back she could afford on a tech camera???

Try setting up a leaf shutter in -50 weather and gloves....

(http://www.arca-shop.de/media/images/popup/Apo-digitar_35mm402.jpg)

Tech cameras are slow and the last thing you want to be dealing with in -50 degrees is anything slow...

Not a good option at all.

Nearly everyone here forgets that she is going to need redundancy..... going to the arctic to shoot with one used digital back or even a new one?

There are also many weather protection camera covers designed for DSLRs as well as blimps that can also be used to keep a camera protected and warmer,
such as the light weight Aquatech blimp

(http://blog.isarfoto.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/AquaTech-Sound-Blimp_wep.jpg)

Just look at use in Space these days... you won't find MF up there anymore.

(http://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Nikon-gear-in-space.jpg)

Aerospace use requires light weight, extreme temperature handling, reliability, redundancy and general ruggedness.

Clothing has it's similarities too when it comes to space and -50 in the arctic...

(http://www.nikonhq.com/images/2010/10/Astronaut-Nikon.png)

Even these "locals" have it figured out

(http://blog.newscom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/imagostock393743.jpg)
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: HarperPhotos on February 12, 2013, 06:00:06 pm
Hi Natalia,

What about the Mamiya RZ system?

http://www.mamiya.co.jp/home/camera/eng/products/index.html

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on February 12, 2013, 08:52:32 pm
Hi,

I've been waiting for this moment for a long time... I am ready to buy a medium format.
Because for the last 10 years I've been using 35mm, I am overwhelmed with the information I find on the Internet and on forums. I would really appreciate your advice here.

My budget: around 20 - 25K

The conditions I shoot and type of photography I do:

- I mostly do photojournalistic and art work. (snip)
Natalia,
You've already received a ton of comments, but I thought I weigh in any way.

You mention two critical uses, photojournalism and fine art. I began a long career in photojournalism and still catch a few assignment today, but have moved into portrait, editorial, limited advertising, architectural and fine art. So I have a lot of professional hands on, practical experience in the areas you mention. I shoot film, Medium Format Digital and 35mm film and digital. I use Nikons and Hasselblads.

The Nikon D800 series are excellent cameras, however, for fast moving photojournalism, I really prefer the D3s. The sensor on the D800 series is too large and hence too critical for that type of work unless you really need the large file size. I enjoy my D800 and have used it on PJ assignments, but it's not the one I grab first for that type of work.

I enjoy the handling of the H4D and the aesthetic look of the files from the Kodak CCD sensor. As you probably know, Hasselblad's optics, IMHO, are excellent. Personally, I would prefer the file quality of the Hasselblad digital for all of my work, but again, for photojournalism, I find it mostly impractical.

Before going with MFD, I tried others, except for the Rollei. What I have researched on them, they are superb too.

Your own idea to try a few and that of others is intelligent and, no matter what you settle on, a good dealer is invaluable as well. Second hand may also be a good option for you as there is a lot of value to be had there.

Good Luck in your search.

Ed

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: sgilbert on February 12, 2013, 09:15:01 pm
"My advice would be to not ask for advice on a forum, especially this one...." 

+
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: bcooter on February 13, 2013, 02:52:08 am
"My advice would be to not ask for advice on a forum, especially this one...." 

+

NOBODY can answer for you.

Reason is

1. You want to step up to a more professional camera which usually means medium format.

2.  You have some very unique circumstances, cold weather, shoot photojournalistic style (sometimes), need a film solution.

3.  It's really your call.  What matters most is what will let you get the shot and secondly what will give you the experience and results your after.

4. Your going to spend a lot of money and money is important so nobody can really tell you what to do.

Knowing this..............

I use Contax, have for a long time, will continue to, though under your brief description they are not cameras I would want to use in -50c conditions.

They're great cameras, shoot film and take digital, very sharp and slightly over crisp lenses and can be quite robust.

Flip side is they  use a lot of batteries, can be finicky if not cleaned with regularity and are not the lightest cameras for carrying a long time.

A lot of people are going to suggest the Nikon d800 and it seems a good camera, though I'm not the biggest fan of modern cmos sensors.  I find them very subject and lighting dependent in color and tone.

I like ccd cameras, just because I think the images are more predictable and look to me to be sharper and cleaner.  (just my opinion).

I should add that my Phase backs are 100% bulletproof.  Never an issue and I use the heck out of them in all kind of conditions, (except -50c)  I won't do -50c heck I hardly will do Moscow in the winter, next to a heated grip truck.

If you want to shoot a ccd I would suggest three cameras I don't use. 

The Pentax because it is robust, the lenses are lightweight, and that Kodak 40mpx sensor does fairly high iso well.  An extra Pentax film body would weigh little and cost very little.  It also uses film inserts that let's you preload with less weight than loaded multiple film backs.

Also I believe the Pentax uses lithium batteries which I would think would be a deal breaker in the weather your shooting in.

Then a tie between the H4d 40 (same sensor as the Pentax) and the Phase 40mpx because the Phase does pixel binning and allow you to go to higher iso.

I wish you the best of luck, hope your trip is profitable and enjoyable.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 03:06:55 am
Hi,

BC has a lot of good points as usual.

I would perhaps just add that Miles Hecker who shoots Pentax 645D in Wyoming may have some experience to share on cold weather performance.

Bernard does mountaineering with his D800 and may have experience with bad and cold weather, probably not down to -50C, though.

Note: The statement below is revoked, after a professional user clealy stating that D800/D800E are built tp "professional standards".
The Nikon D800/D800E is not really a "pro camera", in the sense that it is intended to be dropped on the floor. Nikon has the D4 for that.  Bernard has used D3X and switched to D800. I think he is quite happy, and I also think he is quite demanding of his stuff.

Best regards
Erik

NOBODY can answer for you.

Reason is

1. You want to step up to a more professional camera which usually means medium format.

2.  You have some very unique circumstances, cold weather, shoot photojournalistic style (sometimes), need a film solution.

3.  It's really your call.  What matters most is what will let you get the shot and secondly what will give you the experience and results your after.

4. Your going to spend a lot of money and money is important so nobody can really tell you what to do.

Knowing this..............

I use Contax, have for a long time, will continue to, though under your brief description they are not cameras I would want to use in -50c conditions.

They're great cameras, shoot film and take digital, very sharp and slightly over crisp lenses and can be quite robust.

Flip side is they  use a lot of batteries, can be finicky if not cleaned with regularity and are not the lightest cameras for carrying a long time.

A lot of people are going to suggest the Nikon d800 and it seems a good camera, though I'm not the biggest fan of modern cmos sensors.  I find them very subject and lighting dependent in color and tone.

I like ccd cameras, just because I think the images are more predictable and look to me to be sharper and cleaner.  (just my opinion).

I should add that my Phase backs are 100% bulletproof.  Never an issue and I use the heck out of them in all kind of conditions, (except -50c)  I won't do -50c heck I hardly will do Moscow in the winter, next to a heated grip truck.

If you want to shoot a ccd I would suggest three cameras I don't use.  

The Pentax because it is robust, the lenses are lightweight, and that Kodak 40mpx sensor does fairly high iso well.  An extra Pentax film body would weigh little and cost very little.  It also uses film inserts that let's you preload with less weight than loaded multiple film backs.

Also I believe the Pentax uses lithium batteries which I would think would be a deal breaker in the weather your shooting in.

Then a tie between the H4d 40 (same sensor as the Pentax) and the Phase 40mpx because the Phase does pixel binning and allow you to go to higher iso.

I wish you the best of luck, hope your trip is profitable and enjoyable.



IMO

BC

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 13, 2013, 03:36:36 am
Bernard does mountaineering with his D800 and may have experience with bad and cold weather, probably not down to -50C, though.

The Nikon D800/D800E is not really a "pro camera", in the sense that it is intended to be dropped on the floor. Nikon has the D4 for that.  Bernard has used D3X and switched to D800. I think he is quite happy, and I also think he is quite demanding of his stuff.

Erik,

I have unfortunately a lot less opportunities to do mountaineering for a year or so because of a combination of factors.

So I do not have as much experience with the D800 as I had with the D3x. I have enough to know that the small battery of the D800 offers a lot less autonomy than that of the D3x in cold weather, which is why I suggested a D800 with the vertical release since it can take larger batteries.

Image quality wise, both are excellent, but the D800 is clearly even better.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: torger on February 13, 2013, 04:33:11 am
At -50 degrees?

I'd say that a tech cam works comfortably down to -15 Celcius (5 Fahrenheit). Colder than that the gearing starts becoming stiff (hard to do movements), and fiddling around with the tiny controls on the copal shutter becomes uncomfortable. The slower workflow becomes a problem too, because you easily starts to freeze. I can use the tech camera in colder than -15, but would I face extreme cold for an extended period of time I'd use a system which you can operate quicker and with mittens on, which I can with my Canon system. When I can I use my tech cam though, because I like to shoot with it and it suits my style.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 13, 2013, 09:38:29 am
Fred: have you ever personally shot a digital back on a tech camera?

I absolutely agree the mechanical controls on a tech camera is a disadvantage for -50c. EVERY camera is going to have some disadvantages for use in this temperature. I've been on workshops with tech cameras and digital backs on the top of winter mountains pre-dawn with windchills that I'm not entirely convinced I ever recovered from. I was genuinely worried one of the attendees had gotten frost bite.

But I'd rather take that disadvantage than the potential for electronic failure on a dSLR-type body in such extreme temperatures. A digital back with moderate protection (a la Ken's shower cap) and a tech camera is an extremely durable machine which has very very few points of likely failure even in crazy weather.

What you probably don't know since you don't actually shoot this equipment is that you rarely have to change any setting other than shutter speed and recocking the lens, both of which can be done with gloves on. Your ideal shooting aperture and focus can be set in advance and provide an extreme confidence of correct hyerfocal focusing which can be very difficult to achieve (with such precision and with so little work) on any other kind of camera.

It's worth noting that with a Nikon or Canon if you want tilt/swing or rise/fall/shift your only option (which would be practical in this use-case) would be TS lenses which have tiny knobs for adjustment. If anything the tilt-knob on an Arca Factum and the rise/fall/shift knobs on an Arca/Cambo/Alpa are significantly easier to use with gloves on.

Is it slower? Absolutely, but even in -50c the idea is (for many people) to get one great image which justifies the human cost of being out there in such cold. Being able to racket off a dozen frames is not the point (for many people) but rather to be able to compose and confidently capture one frame of extreme quality.

You can be forgiven for not really having a good working knowledge of this equipment you don't use. But I find it strange you would make your assertion "Not a good option at all." regarding equipment you've never used in practice.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 13, 2013, 09:41:31 am
I'd say that a tech cam works comfortably down to -15 Celcius (5 Fahrenheit). Colder than that the gearing starts becoming stiff (hard to do movements), and fiddling around with the tiny controls on the copal shutter becomes uncomfortable. The slower workflow becomes a problem too, because you easily starts to freeze. I can use the tech camera in colder than -15, but would I face extreme cold for an extended period of time I'd use a system which you can operate quicker and with mittens on, which I can with my Canon system. When I can I use my tech cam though, because I like to shoot with it and it suits my style.

There are some special accommodations that can be made regarding the oil/grease used throughout a tech camera system, that would provide more fluid mechanical operation at very low temperatures.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 09:54:37 am
Hi,

As a general comment, I have the impression that there have been quite a few Phase One kits on Michael Reichmann's Antartic expedition, but I cannot recall any reports of failures on Phase.

Something like 5-6 canon 5DII going kerplonk and some Leica M's.

Best regards
Erik

Fred: have you ever personally shot a digital back on a tech camera?

I absolutely agree the mechanical controls on a tech camera is a disadvantage for -50c. EVERY camera is going to have some disadvantages for use in this temperature. I've been on workshops with tech cameras and digital backs on the top of winter mountains pre-dawn with windchills that I'm not entirely convinced I ever recovered from. I was genuinely worried one of the attendees had gotten frost bite.

But I'd rather take that disadvantage than the potential for electronic failure on a dSLR-type body in such extreme temperatures. A digital back with moderate protection (a la Ken's shower cap) and a tech camera is an extremely durable machine which has very very few points of likely failure even in crazy weather.

What you probably don't know since you don't actually shoot this equipment is that you rarely have to change any setting other than shutter speed and recocking the lens, both of which can be done with gloves on. Your ideal shooting aperture and focus can be set in advance and provide an extreme confidence of correct hyerfocal focusing which can be very difficult to achieve (with such precision and with so little work) on any other kind of camera.

It's worth noting that with a Nikon or Canon if you want tilt/swing or rise/fall/shift your only option (which would be practical in this use-case) would be TS lenses which have tiny knobs for adjustment. If anything the tilt-knob on an Arca Factum and the rise/fall/shift knobs on an Arca/Cambo/Alpa are significantly easier to use with gloves on.

Is it slower? Absolutely, but even in -50c the idea is (for many people) to get one great image which justifies the human cost of being out there in such cold. Being able to racket off a dozen frames is not the point (for many people) but rather to be able to compose and confidently capture one frame of extreme quality.

You can be forgiven for not really having a good working knowledge of this equipment you don't use. But I find it strange you would make your assertion "Not a good option at all." regarding equipment you've never used in practice.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 13, 2013, 10:02:58 am
Hi,

As a general comment, I have the impression that there have been quite a few Phase One kits on Michael Reichmann's Antartic expedition, but I cannot recall any reports of failures on Phase.

Something like 5-6 canon 5DII going kerplonk and some Leica M's.

I think a Hassy H body (an SLR style body) had a lens issue at some point on one of his workshops. But I can't recall any reports of issues with a back.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on February 13, 2013, 10:14:36 am
I started with 3 zooms 21-35/3.5, 28-90/2.8-4.0, 70-200/4.0 with the 28-90 being outstanding
Then I added several primes 90/2.0 great bokeh, 180/3.4 razor sharp and the 280/4.0 razor sharp
the 3 zooms make a nice landscape set, same coatings, same "look" reasonable size and weight to carry around
Marc

ps Leitax adapters

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: gerald.d on February 13, 2013, 10:41:10 am
You can be forgiven for not really having a good working knowledge of this equipment you don't use. But I find it strange you would make your assertion "Not a good option at all." regarding equipment you've never used in practice.

I've never owned a Ferrari, but I know one would be useless for bringing home a wardrobe from Ikea.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: sgilbert on February 13, 2013, 11:21:47 am
"I've never owned a Ferrari, but I know one would be useless for bringing home a wardrobe from Ikea."

No, you'd want a Nikon or a Fuji for that.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 11:55:49 am
Hi,

He lost the front group on a zoom lens on his Hasselblad H, rendering his P65 pretty useless as the zoom was the only lens he had. He was not happy. He was not alone, he found I think about 15 others who also had a similar issue. At that time I got the impression that Hasselblad put the blame on the users, they should not carry the camera with the lens pointing down.

Best regards
Erik


I think a Hassy H body (an SLR style body) had a lens issue at some point on one of his workshops. But I can't recall any reports of issues with a back.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: DHW-JHartje on February 13, 2013, 12:04:40 pm
Really? Again the generell discussion about MFDB vs DSLR?

Of course this is part of the question but in my opinion the main question will be with technique will survive -50°C for a longer period of time? For which camera is a suited and warming case availeable?

Concerning ISO: As far as I know, you Natalia will be in the Antarktis during a time when polarday could be possible (depending on her position) so IMO ISO shouldn't be a problem as low ISO would be recomended, or am I wrong at this point?

So for me it comes down to protecting the equipment and keeping it alive for the time of the journey.

Best regards,

Johannes
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 13, 2013, 12:21:20 pm

But I'd rather take that disadvantage than the potential for electronic failure on a dSLR-type body in such extreme temperatures. A digital back with moderate protection (a la Ken's shower cap) and a tech camera is an extremely durable machine which has very very few points of likely failure even in crazy weather.


Lets see... Nikons are used in space, including outside of the crafts. This involves very extreme temperature differences.


Here is what it's like for the space station.
Quote
A thermometer on the sunny side would reach something like 250 degrees F (121 C),
while a thermometer on the dark side would plunge to something like minus 250 degrees F (-157 C).

A tech camera has it's uses, but reportage and extreme weather photography is very far from ideal.

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 13, 2013, 12:24:27 pm
Hi,

He lost the front group on a zoom lens on his Hasselblad H, rendering his P65 pretty useless as the zoom was the only lens he had. He was not happy. He was not alone, he found I think about 15 others who also had a similar issue. At that time I got the impression that Hasselblad put the blame on the users, they should not carry the camera with the lens pointing down.

Best regards
Erik


This is weird, I have never heard of a lens element falling out of a lens.  Metal shrinks when it gets cold, should this have made connections tighter and the elements more secure?
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 13, 2013, 12:26:35 pm
You can be forgiven for not really having a good working knowledge of this equipment you don't use. But I find it strange you would make your assertion "Not a good option at all." regarding equipment you've never used in practice.

A tech camera is not exactly rocket science. I have plenty of experience with all sorts of formats and
it did not take me more than an hour or so looking at a tech camera to see it's benefits and limitations.

I think that you need to put aside your knee jerk salesman reactions and remember what the op on this thread is asking.
Her budget is not enough for an IQ back with on camera live view. Using a P series back without live view
makes working with a tech camera really slow. She also said that she needs really good low light.....
putting myself in her shoes (and not sticking my fingers in her wallet) this would lead me to believe that she
will also need to shoot wide open. Getting accurate focus relatively comfortably and quickly with a tech camera and a back that fits her budget
will not be possible.

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 13, 2013, 12:28:03 pm
This is weird, I have never heard of a lens element falling out of a lens.  Metal shrinks when it gets cold, should this have made connections tighter and the elements more secure?

Sometimes different metals shrink at different rates as temperature goes down. This can lead to loosening of some parts.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 13, 2013, 12:32:07 pm
Sometimes different metals shrink at different rates as temperature goes down. This can lead to loosening of some parts.
Yes, this is true, but glass does not shrink really at all.  I just find this odd.  Maybe the lens was not assembled correctly, which is not acceptable for a product that cost so much.  
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: JoeKitchen on February 13, 2013, 12:44:31 pm
Back to the subject at hand, I think a tech camera would be much better.  The controls are bigger than the counterparts on a DSLR.  Also, only the back uses a battery, lessen the chances for total failure due to the battery going dead.  Yes it is heavier, but if you are already carry 50 lbs in clothes to stay warm, whats that mean. 

Space may be a different story.  Especially considering you do not have the advantage of gravity holding things in place (including you and the camera) while you compose a shot, meter it, put the back in place, cock the lens (I am sure this would move the camera considering 0 gravity), and get the shot.  What the hell, if I ever go space, I'll bring a DSLR. 

Time to go call Richard Bransen; I'm sure he'll get me there.  ;)
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Dustbak on February 13, 2013, 12:56:58 pm
This is weird, I have never heard of a lens element falling out of a lens.  Metal shrinks when it gets cold, should this have made connections tighter and the elements more secure?

It is an old issue HB had with some of the 50-110 Zoom lenses. Some lenses the front element could eventually fall off.

I have had loose front elements with various lenses and converters after transport. Apparently certain vibrations can tum these retainerrings loose. If you have the guts to stick a sharp screwdriver in the opening of the retainerring you can easily fix this by yourself
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 13, 2013, 01:00:13 pm
A tech camera is not exactly rocket science. I have plenty of experience with all sorts of formats and
it did not take me more than an hour or so looking at a tech camera to see it's benefits and limitations.

[...]Getting accurate focus relatively comfortably and quickly with a tech camera and a back that fits her budget
will not be possible.

Perhaps in your one hour of looking at tech cameras you missed that one of the primary ways users focus a tech camera is rigid presets: ie.. you don't have to focus. A single preset focus point and shooting aperture on a body like an Arca Factum or RM3Di holds the same perfectly-hyperfocal point with zero effort. As I said, the only thing I expect her to do in the field is recock the lens between shots and rotate the shutter speed dial.

If she wants to do isolated-focus shots wide open then this would not be a good approach. If she wants to do sweeping landscape shots it is an even better approach than live view on a dSLR.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 13, 2013, 01:23:20 pm
Also I suspect a major driver in the selection of cameras for the space station is the ability for one body to serve many purposes.

I'd be the first to suggest a dSLR if you told me that you wanted a jack of all trades system that could shoot with very long lenses (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/Coll/weekly.htm), shoot at crazy ISOs (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/images/EFS/lowres/ISS026/ISS026-E-16368.jpg) (that link is ISO12800), do snapshots of crew life, do macro shots (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/06/26/a-light-bending-exercise-in-space/#.URvZ31pATyA) for scientific research/fun, and maybe even video (speculation only). Especially when you told me it cost US$10k to bring a pound of payload to the station and that you had specialized multi-million satellites at your disposal should you wish to shoot anything "out there" that required extreme image quality.

Medium format is the epitome of specialization. A tech camera would make for an entirely useless system for runway photography. It covers on a narrow range of use (architecture, interior, landscape, zone or hyperfocal focused street photography) but it does it better than anything else can. Only the original poster could say if that range covers what they want to do.

So yeah, if the OP was asking for a camera to go the moon with I'd actually recommend a Canon/Nikon. But somehow I don't find a national agencies needs for general purpose photography in space to be a very close analogy for an individual art photographers search for a suitable camera for their journeys down here on earth.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Gigi on February 13, 2013, 02:17:37 pm
Sometimes different metals shrink at different rates as temperature goes down.

And when do they not?
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 02:21:21 pm
Hi,

The cameras NASA sent to the moon were Hasselblads, not Nikons. I guess that Natalie is not going to space but to the artic, probably on ship (water ship). Ships roll along three axes, so I don't think she is going to use a technical camera on a Gitzo five series tripod. Astronauts don't wear space suits by the way. I got the impression that the dress code aboard is shorts and t-shirts/polos.

Best regards
Erik

Also I suspect a major driver in the selection of cameras for the space station is the ability for one body to serve many purposes.

I'd be the first to suggest a dSLR if you told me that you wanted a jack of all trades system that could shoot with very long lenses (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/Coll/weekly.htm), shoot at crazy ISOs (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/images/EFS/lowres/ISS026/ISS026-E-16368.jpg) (that link is ISO12800), do snapshots of crew life, do macro shots (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/06/26/a-light-bending-exercise-in-space/#.URvZ31pATyA) for scientific research/fun, and maybe even video (speculation only). Especially when you told me it cost US$10k to bring a pound of payload to the station and that you had specialized multi-million satellites at your disposal should you wish to shoot anything "out there" that required extreme image quality.

Medium format is the epitome of specialization. A tech camera would make for an entirely useless system for runway photography. It covers on a narrow range of use (architecture, interior, landscape, zone or hyperfocal focused street photography) but it does it better than anything else can. Only the original poster could say if that range covers what they want to do.

So yeah, if the OP was asking for a camera to go the moon with I'd actually recommend a Canon/Nikon. But somehow I don't find a national agencies needs for general purpose photography in space to be a very close analogy for an individual art photographers search for a suitable camera for their journeys down here on earth.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 03:03:51 pm
Hi,

I am a bit skeptical about hyperfocal focus. My interest in this area was started by a Pentax 645D user complaining about sharpness in the background when focusing at a subject 200-300 yards away. I think he used a 150 mm lens at f/9.5. I made a series of test shots using an equivalent setting and could indeed see a problem. My view is that to achieve critical focus you need to focus on the subject, exactly.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/49-dof-in-digital-pictures

My test was done on a Sony with 6 micron pixel pitch. Physics care little about make of sensor, but a better equipment would be even more demanding.

I actually think hyperfocal focus works, but for best sharpness we need to calculate using a very small CoC, making the hyperfocal distance be very far away.


Best regards
Erik


Perhaps in your one hour of looking at tech cameras you missed that one of the primary ways users focus a tech camera is rigid presets: ie.. you don't have to focus. A single preset focus point and shooting aperture on a body like an Arca Factum or RM3Di holds the same perfectly-hyperfocal point with zero effort. As I said, the only thing I expect her to do in the field is recock the lens between shots and rotate the shutter speed dial.

If she wants to do isolated-focus shots wide open then this would not be a good approach. If she wants to do sweeping landscape shots it is an even better approach than live view on a dSLR.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: HarperPhotos on February 13, 2013, 03:32:16 pm
Hi Erik,

This comment is a doozey

“The Nikon D800/D800E is not really a "pro camera", in the sense that it is intended to be dropped on the floor. Nikon has the D4 for that.”

I’m a pro and my Nikon D800E and D800 are as tough as my old Nikon D3x which I did drop onto the concrete floor of my studio and it did not survive. The entire top plate and prism had to be replaced.

So please stop making ridiculous comments.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 03:36:03 pm
Hi Simon,

Thanks for making this point.

So it is your experience that the D800/D800E is built to similar standards as the D3s and D4?

Best regards
Erik
Hi Erik,

This comment is a doozey

“The Nikon D800/D800E is not really a "pro camera", in the sense that it is intended to be dropped on the floor. Nikon has the D4 for that.”

I’m a pro and my Nikon D800E and D800 are as tough as my old Nikon D3x which I did drop onto the concrete floor of my studio and it did not survive. The entire top plate and prism had to be replaced.

So please stop making ridiculous comments.

Cheers

Simon

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 13, 2013, 03:36:15 pm
I am a bit skeptical about hyperfocal focus. My interest in this area was started by a Pentax 645D user complaining about sharpness in the background when focusing at a subject 200-300 yards away. I think he used a 150 mm lens at f/9.5. I made a series of test shots using an equivalent setting and could indeed see a problem. My view is that to achieve critical focus you need to focus on the subject, exactly.

As you back away from infinity there is some range of movement in which the appearance of infinity does not change, even for critical analysis at 100% (or higher). How far that range is depends on:
- aperture
- resolution
- focal length*
- you're level of analysis**

I'm not surprised that for a 40mp body at f/9.5 with a relatively long lens that the photographer noticed a difference with even the smallest adjustment that was possible on that kind of lens focus barrel.

With a shorter lens, higher aperture number, lower resolution, or more precise focus mechanism I'm sure you can appreciate he might have a different experience.

When switching to an Arca Swiss RM3Di or Factum for instance you can make very precise changes in focus very repeatable and reliable. This makes it much easier to analyze the effect of backing away from infinity by varying amounts. When using the 32HR at f/16 and a 22mp back for instance you can back away from infinity by a considerable amount prior to seeing any visible change at infinity, and further still if you accept "extremely good" rather than "any visible difference" as the threshold for acceptable sharpness at infinity.

Hyperfocal focusing is not a myth (when taken as a practical matter of getting incredibly sharp infinity detail while not wasting any focus beyond infinity). It is, however, far easier to accomplish on a precise tech camera than on an SLR with general purpose lens focus mounts.

**e.g. a computer analysis might show a numerical drop of MTF which even a very picky photographer would not notice or care about

*in so far as it relates to how much focus changes for each degree of rotation of like-sized focus rings
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 13, 2013, 03:57:03 pm
Hi,

It is really about making the best images under a wide variety of conditions. Natalie clearly indicated that one of her prime interests is high image quality, as she feels older images don't keep up to todays demands.

On the other hand, she expects the equipment to work under a wide set of conditions. If she travels by air, I also presume that weight is a concern. In addition she needs to use film. What to buy is definitively her decision, and she takes all the risk. My view is that we can point to the best information available.

She got a lot of decent information, some coming from folks who own all kinds of cameras from Pentax K5 to IQ180. We all now that any equipment may fail.

I hope she finds the stuff that satisfies her needs (and wants), works perfectly and helps her in making great images. I don't care a bit about make, name on the lens, CCD/CMOS or format.

Best regards
Erik

Really? Again the generell discussion about MFDB vs DSLR?

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: bcooter on February 13, 2013, 05:04:11 pm
Sorry Natalia for going off track, but I bet by now you've run out of the room screaming. 

I know I would.

This section needs to be renamed the buzz kill forum.

Maybe it's just today's world where expectations are lower, or the weird democracy of the internet where every opinion really, really, really, really matters,  but I think a lot of people missed the story here.

Natalia has saved her money and waited 10 years to "buy a medium format camera".

That was the title, that was the thought, that was the intent.

Anyway, I knew the moment I saw this I knew here would come the Buzz kill with 45 links to other peoples information and photos trying to prove, Nikon is the best  vs. the s**t world of medium format.

I didn't think it would go to astronauts and squirrels but now that I think about it . . . predictable.

Once again, I think most missed Natalia's question and at best sure took a lot of fun out of her buying process.

Who cares or knows what is the best camera for a given person?  I don't.  Heck I don't even know for me sometimes.

Hell photographers have traveled the world with what the vast majority of peers would say is the wrong camera.  8x10 in Africa, medium format digital in the Arctic and they got the image "they" wanted, using the equipment "they" wanted.

I respect other's decisions.  I wouldn't buy the Nikon because it doesn't work for what I do (Today). 

Simon likes it, he shoots with it, earns a living with it, so I respect that.

A lot of other good photographers use other equipment and it works for them, so yes I respect that.

As much as I find this Brand talk boring and I own 5 Nikon digital dslrs, 3 Canon dslrs, 2 phase backs and a lot of other stuff, if you save and want something, you want to hear about that.

This conversation reminds me of pulling in the garage with your new BMW and the neighbor across the alley says "why did you buy that?   

You could have bought two Kia vans and carried more, saved gas, been a better person and stopped global warming."

Buzz kill.

Sorry Natalia.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 13, 2013, 05:29:02 pm
But I'd rather take that disadvantage than the potential for electronic failure on a dSLR-type body in such extreme temperatures. A digital back with moderate protection (a la Ken's shower cap) and a tech camera is an extremely durable machine which has very very few points of likely failure even in crazy weather.

So, then moderate protection would protects the DSLR electronics. So no real difference there.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 13, 2013, 06:49:47 pm
Sorry Natalia for going off track, but I bet by now you've run out of the room screaming. 

I know I would.

This section needs to be renamed the buzz kill forum.

Maybe it's just today's world where expectations are lower, or the weird democracy of the internet where every opinion really, really, really, really matters,  but I think a lot of people missed the story here.

Natalia has saved her money and waited 10 years to "buy a medium format camera".

That was the title, that was the thought, that was the intent.

Anyway, I knew the moment I saw this I knew here would come the Buzz kill with 45 links to other peoples information and photos trying to prove, Nikon is the best  vs. the s**t world of medium format.

I didn't think it would go to astronauts and squirrels but now that I think about it . . . predictable.

Once again, I think most missed Natalia's question and at best sure took a lot of fun out of her buying process.

Who cares or knows what is the best camera for a given person?  I don't.  Heck I don't even know for me sometimes.

Hell photographers have traveled the world with what the vast majority of peers would say is the wrong camera.  8x10 in Africa, medium format digital in the Arctic and they got the image "they" wanted, using the equipment "they" wanted.

I respect other's decisions.  I wouldn't buy the Nikon because it doesn't work for what I do (Today). 

Simon likes it, he shoots with it, earns a living with it, so I respect that.

A lot of other good photographers use other equipment and it works for them, so yes I respect that.

As much as I find this Brand talk boring and I own 5 Nikon digital dslrs, 3 Canon dslrs, 2 phase backs and a lot of other stuff, if you save and want something, you want to hear about that.

This conversation reminds me of pulling in the garage with your new BMW and the neighbor across the alley says "why did you buy that?   

You could have bought two Kia vans and carried more, saved gas, been a better person and stopped global warming."

Buzz kill.

Sorry Natalia.

IMO

BC


Tend to agree here. For MF you can't really go wrong with a Phase back and still keep the battery in your pocket to keep warm. Issue is with ANY system is lenses are not designed for -50 with the grease they use. So any AF lens will slow down with any mechanical lense. So think manual focus here and frankly a tech cam maybe the best solution in extreme weather since the only electronics are the back which I shot Phase backs in very cold weather and never had issues , battery yes as it gives you less shooting ability and can just not work in that cold if weather but you can get around that. Really what you need is to get lenses greased with lubricant to handle extreme temps. If you want to shoot film and digital than you need the AFDIII as it will do both. For your price range a P65 would be lovely . Great back plenty of horsepower full frame and built like a tank. Phase has great glass too. I would get 2 bodies though going in those extremes. Honestly body only is not that heavy. Go for it and enjoy.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Nick-T on February 13, 2013, 07:03:30 pm
Just FYI a New Zealand photographer shot in around Scott's huts in the Antarctic with Hasselblad digital and produced a book.

That indicates to me that it is possible to work somewhere cold with medium format... Just saying.

Nick-T
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 13, 2013, 08:56:25 pm
There is one element I would seriously take into account... and that is weather sealing.

My experience doing winter camping in temps close to -20C has told me a couple of things:
- It is real demanding stuff and days are busy between moving, ensuring one's own saftety, shooting, maintaining a shelter, melting water, cooking, managing clothing and accessories,... you can't really afford to waste time baby sitting the camera, everything has to work perfect all the time,
- Condensation is often an issue because the temp inside the tent can be above freezing temperature, whaterever you do, cameras and lenses often end up being soaked and then refrozen and the re-soaked,... This is much worse than rain exposure because every square millimiter of the camera gets wet. There are ways aronud that, but that is back to the baby sitting comment above.

I would personally not risk valuable images opportunities to a system that is not reasonably weather sealed, or at least I would try first to ensure that things are OK.

By the way, the Antartica expeditions of Michael appear to be performed in much milder conditions than typical winter camping in Northern hemisphere. If I recall, temps were around freezing or so.

Just my 2 cent.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 13, 2013, 09:10:06 pm
Natilie
I'm sorry I first answered your post with a well intentioned recommendation based on my experience with both the IQ180, tech camera, Rodenstock lenses, phase One DF, Mamiya AFDII, Canon 5DII, Nikon D800e, Nikkor and Leica lenses. It seems this thread has wandered away from good advice. You set a budget $20-25k and a use, photojournalism, that if it were me I would recommend a D800. If your budget was $80-100k I would recommend the IQ digital back, a P1 DF camera a technical camera Rodenstock lenses D800 and Nikkors. But you set a budget and a time frame and a use. I'm wondering what MFD system you will end up with in one months time on your budget? When I go out on Landscape treks I pack both the tech camera for the wide shots and the DSLR for the long shots but again you set a budget.
Marc
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 13, 2013, 10:24:42 pm
Perhaps in your one hour of looking at tech cameras you missed that one of the primary ways users focus a tech camera is rigid presets: ie.. you don't have to focus. A single preset focus point and shooting aperture on a body like an Arca Factum or RM3Di holds the same perfectly-hyperfocal point with zero effort. As I said, the only thing I expect her to do in the field is recock the lens between shots and rotate the shutter speed dial.

If she wants to do isolated-focus shots wide open then this would not be a good approach. If she wants to do sweeping landscape shots it is an even better approach than live view on a dSLR.

No I did not miss that. I have shot large format for years and know perfectly well about the use of hyperfocal focus setting.
Reportage involves a lot more than shooting acceptably sharp at infinity with the camera set to hyperfocal point.
Title: Off topic, using hyperfocal focusing
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 14, 2013, 12:33:25 am
Hi,

I moved this discussion to a new thread:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75223.0

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: torger on February 14, 2013, 05:03:28 am
There are some special accommodations that can be made regarding the oil/grease used throughout a tech camera system, that would provide more fluid mechanical operation at very low temperatures.

That would be kind of cool... but I guess one would have to change to winter oil and then to summer oil, so it would be a bit messy :-).

Another thing I've noted is that some of my Schneider push-on lens caps change size depending on temperature. Sits a bit loose when its warm, and tight when cold. I will probably replace that one with a standard spring-loaded lens cap. I hope the metal in the lenses is a bit more temperature stable :-).
Title: Re: Off topic, using hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on February 14, 2013, 06:57:11 am
Hi,

Sorry for going off topic.....

If you have to apologize for going off topic, then why do it? Maybe it would be better to present your scientific data research in a new thread?

Title: Re: Off topic, using hyperfocal focusing
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 14, 2013, 09:51:57 am
1) If you calculate hyperfocal distance the calculation will assume some CoC. What I have seen, critically sharp images would require a small CoC. In my experience I would say that setting the CoC equal to pixel pitch is needed for optimal sharpness.

At 100%? Erik, DoF and hyperfocal distance is an angular resolution problem in the viewer, not a linear resolution one on the image. Nor is it about "critical" sharpness, but acceptable sharpness. CoC is based on format, not pixel pitch-you are not going to get less DoF in a format because it resolves more--no one ever used film resolving power in DoF calculations, the same applies to sensors.
Title: Re: Off topic, using hyperfocal focusing
Post by: torger on February 14, 2013, 10:15:05 am
At 100%? Erik, DoF and hyperfocal distance is an angular resolution problem in the viewer, not a linear resolution one on the image. Nor is it about "critical" sharpness, but acceptable sharpness. CoC is based on format, not pixel pitch-you are not going to get less DoF in a format because it resolves more--no one ever used film resolving power in DoF calculations, the same applies to sensors.

With traditional viewing distance average-eyesight based calculations all we need is a 4 megapixel camera or so. All extra resolution is wasted because we cannot see it if we stand at a nice-behaving viewing distance and have average good eyesight.

However, the more resolution we get in our landscape photography camera sensors, the more desire we get to resolve more detail (we like nosing prints!), and therefore many of us digital photographers have abandoned the traditional way of looking at CoC and instead base it on how much detail the sensor can resolve, regardless of format size. I prefer connect CoC to diffraction airy disk size (as diffraction is a key tradeoff factor in deep DoF photography), others connect it to pixel pitch. In doing so we can make better tradeoffs concerning aperture and focus distance, and make images as sharp as the situation allows rather than "sharp enough for standard viewing distance". With this way to look upon CoC and DoF we see that the more resolution we got, the tougher it is to make use of it all. Some focus stack to get around it.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: theguywitha645d on February 14, 2013, 11:08:17 am
Setting a CoC does not limit the detail in your image. The CoC is simply a way to model the perception of sharpness a viewer may experience. Smaller and sharper details can be in the image regardless at what value I set the CoC. That is why the term "acceptable sharpness" is used with DoF and CoC--it is not defining the sharpness at the plane of focus.
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K (My reflections)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 14, 2013, 01:05:50 pm
Hi!

If I may reflect on what has been said:

Marc McCalmont suggests that D800 covers the requirements Natalie listed best. He uses IQ180, too and feels the IQ180 is superior for detail. Personally he carries both.

Guy Mancuso suggests  AFDIII and P65+. He says that the body and back are built like a tank. Guy also says that the AFDIII works with film backs, which is important for the OP.

BC is as usual very honest/serious. He suggest Phase, Pentax 645D or Hasselblad although I think he mostly uses Contax. The Pentax 645D is interesting in being fully weather sealed.

Honestly, those suggestions make most sense to me.

To that I would add my own observation. Buy from a decent dealer and test the stuff you buy, regardless of make, used or new. bad samples slip trough sometimes and it is best to find out ASAP.

Personally, I guess that if I would go for an arctic trip I would take the equipment I have experience with. On the other hand I may upgrade to the latest stuff. I would not go with a single camera.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K (My reflections)
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 14, 2013, 02:55:02 pm
Hi!

If I may reflect on what has been said:

Marc McCalmont suggests that D800 covers the requirements Natalie listed best. He uses IQ180, too and feels the IQ180 is superior for detail. Personally he carries both.

Guy Mancuso suggests  AFDIII and P65+. He says that the body and back are built like a tank. Guy also says that the AFDIII works with film backs, which is important for the OP.

BC is as usual very honest/serious. He suggest Phase, Pentax 645D or Hasselblad although I think he mostly uses Contax. The Pentax 645D is interesting in being fully weather sealed.

Honestly, those suggestions make most sense to me.

To that I would add my own observation. Buy from a decent dealer and test the stuff you buy, regardless of make, used or new. bad samples slip trough sometimes and it is best to find out ASAP.

Personally, I guess that if I would go for an arctic trip I would take the equipment I have experience with. On the other hand I may upgrade to the latest stuff. I would not go with a single camera.

Best regards
Erik

AFD iiii because it can do both film and digital
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 15, 2013, 12:48:34 pm
Also I suspect a major driver in the selection of cameras for the space station is the ability for one body to serve many purposes.

I'd be the first to suggest a dSLR if you told me that you wanted a jack of all trades system that could shoot with very long lenses (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/Coll/weekly.htm), shoot at crazy ISOs (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/images/EFS/lowres/ISS026/ISS026-E-16368.jpg) (that link is ISO12800), do snapshots of crew life, do macro shots (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/06/26/a-light-bending-exercise-in-space/#.URvZ31pATyA) for scientific research/fun, and maybe even video (speculation only). Especially when you told me it cost US$10k to bring a pound of payload to the station and that you had specialized multi-million satellites at your disposal should you wish to shoot anything "out there" that required extreme image quality.

Medium format is the epitome of specialization. A tech camera would make for an entirely useless system for runway photography. It covers on a narrow range of use (architecture, interior, landscape, zone or hyperfocal focused street photography) but it does it better than anything else can. Only the original poster could say if that range covers what they want to do.

So yeah, if the OP was asking for a camera to go the moon with I'd actually recommend a Canon/Nikon. But somehow I don't find a national agencies needs for general purpose photography in space to be a very close analogy for an individual art photographers search for a suitable camera for their journeys down here on earth.

For the heck of it I contacted NASA and received the following reply:
 
Quote
[Q: Any idea if the pool of tested cameras (for inclusion in the space program) includes the modern incarnations of the medium format bodies that went to the moon like those from Phase One and Hasselblad?]
No they are not.  The medium format cameras have much larger file sizes than the servers on ISS or communications can handle on a regular basis.  Also, traditionally, the medium format cameras do not have as long of lenses available as do the 35mm format cameras which are essential for a variety of tasks.  Now if NASA decides to return to the Moon, Mars, or travel to some other celestial body, then we will relook at using the medium format cameras.

So the reason medium format is not on the space station: too big of files and no long lenses (presumably a combination of absolute lengths and the aperture/speed of lenses available on both).
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 16, 2013, 06:40:25 pm
So the reason medium format is not on the space station: too big of files and no long lenses (presumably a combination of absolute lengths and the aperture/speed of lenses available on both).

That is a ridiculous over simplification of what is involved with working on the space station and modern space exploration.

First of all the cost of one man hour of research on the space station is over $ 10,000,000.
Time is very very valuable. Cameras with advanced functionality are far more important than MP count.
Also recording motion image with the same equipment.

As far as future space exploration goes it will not be manned. That stupid cold war bullshit is over.

As far as producing high resolution images the mars rovers used 2MP cameras and advanced stitching techniques.
The cameras used will have more of a background from scientific and military use.

In space with high contrast light dynamic range is far more important than MP count. For that reason space exploration cameras will be
built around advanced custom sensors, not old technology MF sensors.

Also as far as future exploration goes it will be robotic with the need of remote control. This wil be done with propitiatory custom equipment.
It will be far more along the lines of modern technology in Nikons and Canons that already have quite advanced remote control, even consumer products are available with wireless control and wireless live view.

I also doubt that any space program would put themselves in the hands of current mfd companies that don't have the
financial solidity that would be required to be a supplier. They will either go with technology giants like Canon, Fuji, Zeiss, Nikon or Teledyne
or one of the many other industrial imaging giants that have experience and products that go beyond the visible spectrum.


Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: Chris Livsey on February 17, 2013, 03:46:18 am

As far as future space exploration goes it will not be manned. That stupid cold war bullshit is over.


Stupid yes but it brought in the money. The public, who pay, will only back the big bucks if a manned mission is on the cards. How many remember the first man made object to reach the moon surely THE milestone ? ( Luna 2 (E-1A series) in 1959 was Soviet. ). Logically the robots are the answer but since when has logic won out? How many will remember the Mars Rover after a maned landing?

Apologies for now going so far OT, about 238,857 miles actually  ;D
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 17, 2013, 01:23:22 pm
Logically the robots are the answer but since when has logic won out?

As far as interplanetary exploration goes.... logic has won out for the last 40 years.

My neighbor worked on the Mars rovers. Currently two are still working. Two of the last three rovers have
continued working long after the original planned mission duration.

The space Shuttle has been canned. It has been replaced by the much smaller Robotic x-37b.
Manned missions to the space shuttle rely on older more conventional rockets.

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: yaya on February 17, 2013, 02:33:43 pm
For the heck of it I contacted NASA and received the following reply:
 
So the reason medium format is not on the space station: too big of files and no long lenses (presumably a combination of absolute lengths and the aperture/speed of lenses available on both).

Also 35mm shoot JPEG which is what the space guys use (for the same reason...limited bandwidth). Worth noting that all Mars Rovers to date incorporate DALSA CCD Imaging sensors image capture and navigation, predominately for their low-light capabilities...
Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: FredBGG on February 17, 2013, 03:07:29 pm
Also 35mm shoot JPEG which is what the space guys use (for the same reason...limited bandwidth). Worth noting that all Mars Rovers to date incorporate DALSA CCD Imaging sensors image capture and navigation, predominately for their low-light capabilities...

Yup Dalsa sensors, but sensors that have nothing to do with MFD sensors. Very different sensors with very low MP count.

Both Mastcams on the Rovers are fully custom designs. Fixed focal length. 2MP and 10fps video capability.
Both cameras are telephoto with 5.1 and 15 degree angle of view. Stitching is used to produce wider angles of view.

Some interesting background here:
http://msl-scicorner.jpl.nasa.gov/Instruments/Mastcam/ (http://msl-scicorner.jpl.nasa.gov/Instruments/Mastcam/)

Title: Re: Help me choosing medium format camera! 20 - 25K
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 17, 2013, 03:09:23 pm
Hi,

Mars is not like earth. We don't need much radiation hardening for instance, because we have van Allen belts shielding most of the cosmic radiation from earth.

My impression was that Natalie would shoot on earth without having a space suit.

Best regards
Erik


Also 35mm shoot JPEG which is what the space guys use (for the same reason...limited bandwidth). Worth noting that all Mars Rovers to date incorporate DALSA CCD Imaging sensors image capture and navigation, predominately for their low-light capabilities...