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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: Robert Boire on February 08, 2013, 02:45:07 pm

Title: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Robert Boire on February 08, 2013, 02:45:07 pm
Hello


I would like to calibrate my understanding of the Book module/blurb with respect to color management
After reviewing this forum and the blurb site this is what I understand:

1. Send Book to Blurb converts the images to sRGB, the "preferred RGB" color space for blurb.
2. Soft proofing should be done in sRGB rather than using the blurb color profile, which is probably not that reliable for different printer/papers.
3. There is no way to in LR to select another workspace

Did I get that right?

That being said, why wouldn't blurb accept any of the other color spaces? What happens if a PDF is sent with Adobe color space?

Thanks

Robert
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 08, 2013, 03:53:37 pm
soft proofing should be done in the output space, not in sRGB.  sRGB is not an output space, and Blurb simply follows standard procedures for most requiring sRGB for submitted work to avoid issues with incorrectly tagged images.  This means they assume the image is sRGB whether it is tagged sRGB or is untagged. This works fine because the gamut of their presses is easily contained inside the gamut of sRGB. The image will be converted to the indigo press output space before being sent to the press, which is why you want to soft proof with this space.

Lightrooms "space" is irrelevant.  The working space doesn't really affect any of this.

So soft proof them in the blurb output space, then output them as jpeg sRGB files to submit to blurb.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 08, 2013, 06:05:19 pm
I would like to calibrate my understanding of the Book module/blurb with respect to color management
After reviewing this forum and the blurb site this is what I understand:

1. Send Book to Blurb converts the images to sRGB, the "preferred RGB" color space for blurb.
2. Soft proofing should be done in sRGB rather than using the blurb color profile, which is probably not that reliable for different printer/papers.
3. There is no way to in LR to select another workspace
Did I get that right?

Yes and so now you can just about forget soft proofing. For one, LR can't support CMYK profiles and that's the process used for output. Blurb does provide a single profile that they want us to believe defines all their printing processes, papers etc. Forget about that. You have no control over rendering intent which is image specific nor do we know if the conversion they use will support Black Point Compensation. So it's a totally silly color management 'workflow' if I can be so kind to use the term. Might as well just forget about soft proofing in Photoshop which supports CMYK profiles let alone LR which doesn't.

There are ways to make an RGB profile that could soft proof a CMYK process but since Blurb doesn’t provide the actual profiles used to convert the data, it's moot. Note too, they use a different print process for the cover versus the inside of the books. So more disconnect in terms of a proper color management workflow. Send them the book, hope for the best (which in my case, wasn't so good).
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Robert Boire on February 08, 2013, 06:35:32 pm
So it's a totally silly color management 'workflow'

Hmmm..... So is there a POD service for photobooks that does not have a silly process that you would recommend?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 08, 2013, 06:48:47 pm
Hmmm..... So is there a POD service for photobooks that does not have a silly process that you would recommend?

I don't know of any but there may very well be such a service. I've only printed books through LR and Aperture.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on February 09, 2013, 01:48:46 am
Yes and so now you can just about forget soft proofing.
Not my experience.
Whilst there may not be a full and perfect proofing standard to work to with Blurb, soft proofing to sRGB will highlight any serious issues and prevent a lot of surprises. The presses used for photo books in Europe seem pretty consistent and the HP Indigo profile Blurb suggest using will give a very good idea of what to expect.

The main thing that seems to trip up people is the problem of getting true blacks. An sRGB 0,0,0 won't seamlessly match with a 'Black' applied as a page background in CMYK, so dark images might not melt into the page as expected.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 09, 2013, 01:53:28 pm
Not my experience.
Whilst there may not be a full and perfect proofing standard to work to with Blurb, soft proofing to sRGB will highlight any serious issues and prevent a lot of surprises.

Well based on the years I've used color management, and based on my understanding, that doesn't make sense.

The sRGB color space is one based upon a synthetic color space based on an emissive CRT with defined phosphor's and ambient condition.
It has no relationship to the CMYK output color space being sent to the printer. Any more than Adobe RGB (1998), Melissa RGB (which is what you see anyway in LR) or ProPhoto RGB.

Less farther away but just as bogus is the profile Blurb provides which when examined shows it's a GRACoL2006 Coated1. Even if we are to believe they've setup all the Indigo's and whatever press is used for the cover, to emulate GRACoL2006 Coated1 within a decent dE (say a max of dE5), what about all the differing paper's offered. And what rendering intent do they force on every image and using BPC or not?

Quote
An sRGB 0,0,0 won't seamlessly match with a 'Black' applied as a page background in CMYK, so dark images might not melt into the page as expected.

The idea that soft proofing on a display (which can't be set for a contrast ratio based upon the one output device a profile describes), the inability to use the Simulate paper and ink preview isn't proper soft proofing!

The sRGB soft proof idea seems more like a soft proof placebo. There are those on the opposite camp that dismiss soft proofing because it will never appear 100% like the print (an emissive display can never match a reflective print). That camp fails to accept that a 95% match is better than a 80% match. All the various figures can waver depending on how effective the actual color management workflow is and where the weakest link lies. The just send sRGB workflow is great for consumers who wouldn’t know an ICC profile if it hit them in the face. Blurb from LR doesn't seem to fit that mold. Least we forget you can if you so desire, download an actual ICC profile for a device that resides in a specific Costco store. You could actually soft proof and convert you image for output at that actual store.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on February 10, 2013, 04:50:09 am
Well based on the years I've used color management, and based on my understanding, that doesn't make sense
If anything in this thread doesn't make sense it's your earlier comment "you can just about forget soft proofing".

Do you really think there's no possible way to help improve the visualisation of the final printed product ?

If Blurb ask for sRGB images, what reason is there not to soft proof to that colourspace ?

No, it's not perfect, but it's the best solution there is available at the moment within LR.
Actually it works pretty well too.

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Robert Boire on February 10, 2013, 10:02:18 am
One thing I do not understand....

According to blurb, sRGB is the "preferred" color space. The implication is that other color spaces will be accepted but are not ideal. If we Send Book to Blurb via LR, I suppose there is no choice but to use sRGB.  But what happens if a book is submitted directly to blurb outside of LR using - say- Adobe RGB? Does blurb convert to sRGB? Does it even know that the images have been sent with Adobe?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 10, 2013, 10:42:47 am
If anything in this thread doesn't make sense it's your earlier comment "you can just about forget soft proofing".

The quote is incomplete. Just forget about soft proofing, using sRGB to Blurb. It's a complete waste of time. It shows you nothing useful.

Quote
If Blurb ask for sRGB images, what reason is there not to soft proof to that colourspace ?

The idea behind soft proofing is to simulate on screen, the output process before you output the document. You are sending your data to a CMYK device. You don't have a profile for that device in this case, the Blurb CMYK profile doesn't define their output(s). Using sRGB is even farther from the truth. Viewing a sRGB soft proof going to a CMYK device doesn't tell you anything about that output. And as I said, any soft proof that voids the use of the simulation of ink and paper is an incorrect soft proof unless you've properly calibrated your display for that by controlling the contrast ratio (few displays can do this).

In LR, you're viewing in an RGB working space anyway, the idea to switch to sRGB somehow tells you something useful in it's preview based on a CMYK process is about as ineffective as loading an Epson 3880 Luster profile when you're printing to a Canon ipf5000 on their glossy paper. Why would you ask LR or Photoshop to show you a complete lie in the preview of a soft proof that has no bearing on the output?

You pick the output profile you will use to convert that data going to the output device for soft proofing. Period. You have to also examine the effect of the Rendering Intent and the paper and ink simulation. That is how you view, on-screen, the image as it will appear (as close as our technology allows) on the output device. The sRGB color space has no role here (even on the Web outside your system).

If you want to get picky, you should be aware that by the time the CMYK conversion process is to start, sRGB (any RGB) is out of the picture, the data will be in Lab. You could just have picked ProPhoto or ColorMatch RGB and the 'soft proof' would be just as incorrect, a lie about the output as if you picked sRGB.

Quote
According to blurb, sRGB is the "preferred" color space. The implication is that other color spaces will be accepted but are not ideal. If we Send Book to Blurb via LR, I suppose there is no choice but to use sRGB.  But what happens if a book is submitted directly to blurb outside of LR using - say- Adobe RGB? Does blurb convert to sRGB? Does it even know that the images have been sent with Adobe?

In LR, you're exporting sRGB to Blurb. FWIW, in Aperture it's Adobe RGB (1998) going to their CMYK printers. IF they tell you they can take any RGB working space, it means their front end is smart enough not to assume sRGB (that's good) and they will convert to the output color space from any tagged RGB  space. Unlike many silly RGB lab's out there, they will allow you to send them something other than sRGB. Blurb doesn't, as these other labs do, assume and demand sRGB. But when rubber hits the road, whatever RGB working space you provide will play a small role, mainly in terms of out of gamut colors in the source that could be mapped to the destination (yet again, you have no idea what rendering intent or in this discussion profile will be used to end up in CMYK).

Bottom line:
IF you have a service provider that demands sRGB, soft proofing is hardly useful assuming they give you a generic CMYK profile that doesn't define the output fully. Soft proofing to a CMYK device using an RGB working space based on a CRT is just a waste of time, it shows you nothing that has any bearing on the output in terms of a soft proof. Might as well just view the image in it's current RGB working space.

If you have service provider that demands sRGB and a profile they will use for the actual output, and they let you use it fully, that is now very useful as you control the process and presumably (short of using a device link which seems unnecessarily), they will send the CMYK numbers as is, to the press. The data you converted and saw is the data sent to the printer.

For this to work, the display calibration and profile and the print viewing conditions have to be configured correctly. It's 'diffcult' enough doing this to a high degree with the correct output profile. Using a profile that has no bearing on the output and thus the soft proof is just a soft proof that has nothing useful to show you.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on February 10, 2013, 12:41:29 pm
In LR, you're exporting sRGB to Blurb.
So why not proof to that space ?

Are you suggesting that the differences between Melissa RGB and sRGB aren't worth considering ?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 10, 2013, 01:20:30 pm
So why not proof to that space ?
Are you suggesting that the differences between Melissa RGB and sRGB aren't worth considering ?

It is an intermediate color space that has absolutely nothing to do with the output device which is in CMYK. You could send them Lab and that would be the case as well. At least that's a device independent color space not that it helps in soft proofing to an undefined output color space.

Have you ever seen the differences between say sRGB and a CMYK output device like an Indigo in 3d?

Yes, the differences between Melissa RGB (which is used for numbers, not the color space you're viewing, that depends on the modules and other factors) and sRGB are not worth considering in terms of the soft proof.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on February 10, 2013, 01:26:55 pm
Yes, the differences between Melissa RGB (which is used for numbers, not the color space you're viewing, that depends on the modules and other factors) and sRGB are not worth considering in terms of the soft proof.
If it's not worth trying to soft proof to sRGB, why did Adobe build in the facility ?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 10, 2013, 01:29:47 pm
If it's not worth trying to soft proof to sRGB, why did Adobe build in the facility ?

You should always have the ability to soft proof to another RGB working space. I'm working in ProPhoto and I want to see what that image would look like IF I convert to that color space. Get it? You load the profile for a soft proof based on what you want it to simulate. You're printing to a CMYK device. You're not sending the Blurb book to the web (on your system). There is zero reason to soft proof to sRGB. It isn't the output color space.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on February 10, 2013, 01:39:46 pm
There is zero reason to soft proof to sRGB. It isn't the output color space.
Well sRGB IS the space output from your system to Blurb and it IS different to the default space the images are in when being viewed in LR.

No, it's not the final printed output space, but it makes sense to me to least take an interest in what the files you send to Blurb will actually look like leaving LR, even if it's not the most perfect proof view that might be possible for the final printed product.

Just throwing your hands in the air and saying nothing is worth doing isn't very helpful when there are tools available that at least help to spot problems before publishing.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 10, 2013, 01:48:28 pm
Andrew, you seem to know a lot about how Blurb works. Please tell me if the procedure below might get you decent soft proofing.

First, order a book with the cover and paper selections that you'll use in the real book. Make the images in the book color patch sets like this one (not very artistic, but useful for characterizing their printing process). Pick a supported RGB color space for the target, one that is big enough to encompass the printer gamut, but not so big that the eight-bit-per-color-plane encoding causes problems.

(http://www.kasson.com/ll/I1ltrtgt.JPG)

When you get the book, cut the pages out and scan them with a spectrophotometer, then make profiles for the pages and the cover.

Use those profiles for soft proofing.

When you export from LR, use the color space that you used for the targets. [Correction: export in the color space of the profile that you created, so it can control the gamut mapping. Then assign the profile of the supported RGB color space you used for the target, but don't change the data.]

I can see some potential problems with this approach. What if Blurb does image-dependent processing on what you send them? What if the send your images to different presses with different characteristics depending on their internal operational needs? What if they don't calibrate the presses to some invariant standard?

Still, it might be better than nothing, assuming you're ordering enough books to make it worthwhile to go to all that trouble.

If their process is stable, then others could use the profiles you developed, given that the license that you bought for your profile maker lets you distribute the profiles.

What do you think?

Jim
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 10, 2013, 01:53:47 pm
You can't build a profile for Blurb without sending them the correct (CMYK) targets and by having an understanding of the front end and how it deals with untagged CMYK. You need to know (or work though lots of output) GCR, total ink, linearization based on lpi and a host of other stuff only Blurb knows.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 10, 2013, 02:24:24 pm
You can't build a profile for Blurb without sending them the correct (CMYK) targets and by having an understanding of the front end and how it deals with untagged CMYK. You need to know (or work though lots of output) GCR, total ink, linearization based on lpi and a host of other stuff only Blurb knows.

Andrew, if these are all point processes, why can't we calibrate them out in the profile-making process? The way I see it, the situation is similar to making a profile for an Epson printer. The printer is a CMYK device (or a CcMmYKlKllKGO device, in the case of the x900 printers) but the driver wants RGB input. I build a profile for that printer by feeding it RGB targets and seeing what colors come out. The printer driver can do all the under color removal, gray component replacement, ink limiting, etc. it wants, as long as it does it the same for every RGB triplet, and it does it without discontinuities that render the three-D by three-D trilinear interpolation unacceptably inaccurate.

But maybe I'm missing something. At the conceptual level, what's the difference between and Epson 4900 and the Blurb liquid electrophotographic printers?

Jim
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on February 10, 2013, 05:15:37 pm
There are at least two ways you could build an RGB profile just to soft proof Blurb within LR. We need the profile that actually defines the process, then build a ColorCast profile in ColorThink Pro in RGB which one could load to soft proof. You can't convert of course. And you still have to force a rendering intent on every image on the receiving end. Sending out the RGB targets to build an RGB profile just for soft proofing could work nicely and it is way better than using sRGB! The TAC, GCR settings wouldn't affect the soft proof much if at all. Minor tweaking for a match could be done in an display specific setting and profile.

Now that you have this RGB soft proof profile, how does the actual press behavior vary over say a month? How close does the calibration bring it back to the measured target? Ideally you'd send that target out X number of times over a month (I'd prefer 2-3 a day). You'd see how it varies over average and max dE among other metrics,and then use that average data to build the profile again for soft proofing.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 10, 2013, 05:39:02 pm
Now that you have this RGB soft proof profile, how does the actual press behavior vary over say a month? How close does the calibration bring it back to the measured target? Ideally you'd send that target out X number of times over a month (I'd prefer 2-3 a day). You'd see how it varies over average and max dE among other metrics,and then use that average data to build the profile again for soft proofing.

Andrew, you're right about all that. Who knows how stable the process is? You'd think hp would have built in some calibration features, and maybe they have, but I don't know what they are. I'd try it and post the profile, but my license to the profile making software I use won't let me do that, so this idea may remain a gedanken experiment. I'm not planning on printing any books in the near future, so it's not worth it to try it for myself.

As a side point, the marking engine of most of the hp Indigo line has seven toner stations. I don't know how many Blurb uses, but, if they use them all for process colorants, profiling in colorant space could be complicated.

Thanks,

Jim
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: herminy on January 11, 2018, 06:19:04 pm
Hi, there! First let me say that I am very glad that I subscribed to this site, it has been invaluable in helping me navigate the wonderful brave new world (for me) of printing with a new Canon Pro 1000 printer. Right now, though, I am trying to make a decent photobook rather quickly using the output from LR, which I thought would be an okay option. The soft proofing piece has thrown me a bit, as a lot of my images have pretty saturated blues in them, and I really want to know if they are falling out of gamut. My question is this: having downloaded the ICC profile from blurb, does it make sense to soft proof using that profile in PhotoShop, and then pull the images back into LR to plug into the book layout module? Is that going to get me the closest to where I need to be colorwise, even though what is getting uploaded won't be CMYK? I hope this question makes sense. I was very disappointed to find that you can't use the CMYK profile in LR, and proofing using sRGB seems like a pretty crummy option...Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 11, 2018, 07:05:40 pm
My question is this: having downloaded the ICC profile from blurb, does it make sense to soft proof using that profile in PhotoShop, and then pull the images back into LR to plug into the book layout module?
There's no reason to soft proof at all!
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Redcrown on January 12, 2018, 12:12:40 am
I hesitate to defend Blurb, but I've produced 21 copies of 13 different books with good satisfaction. Certainly the quality of the CMYK printing is not equal to most alternatives. And Blurb is definitely inconsistent. Identical books printed at different times or places (US vs. Europe) often have easily visible differences. And Blurb often creates garbage. Of my 13 books, I've rejected 3 and Blurb reprinted at no charge, with no argument. Two of those had bad color and tone, one had physical damage to several pages.

But consider that you get what you pay for. Blurb is cheap, from 30% to over 200% cheaper than their competitors. That's a big factor many overlook. With the exception of AdoramaPix books that are printed on "real" photo paper (and cost a small fortune) all the others use the same CMYK process. Maybe one has a consistently better CYMK process than the others, but is it twice as good? I don't think so.

After my second Blurb book, I made a "test" book, using several images printed in 3 or 4 versions. Each version had a slightly different curve adjustment applied, trying to match the soft proof. As a result of that test, I now apply a very slight s-curve to images I submit. The curve lowers RGB value 76 to 68 while anchoring the curve above 175. It's not a perfect restoration of blacks and shadows, but it's as close as I can get to my sRGB monitor display.

I also include a small synthetic version of the Macbeth colorchecker as the last page of every book. I can then compare each new book with older ones, and have a good basis for rejection if needed.

And I have to respectfully disagree with Andrew. There is good reason to soft proof. It will give you a reasonably good indication if your image is printable to your satisfaction. If you are not satisfied, there is little or nothing you can do about it. Either live with it, or don't print that image.

In one of my Blurb books I had an image of a Japanese woman in a dark blue kimono. It came out a flat, solid blue. All the folds and texture of the kimono were lost. Really ugly. After the fact, I soft proofed the original image. The out-of-gamut problem was obvious. Nothing I could do about it. I wish I had proofed before printing, because I would not have used that image.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 12, 2018, 09:32:26 am
It’s pointless to soft proof if you don’t have the ICC profile for the process. Blurb does not supply such a profile. It’s a generic profile they expect you believe defines all papers for one and that’s impossible! Therefore I submit again it is worthless to soft proof using blurbs profile!
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: David Eichler on January 16, 2018, 02:25:42 pm
It’s pointless to soft proof if you don’t have the ICC profile for the process. Blurb does not supply such a profile. It’s a generic profile they expect you believe defines all papers for one and that’s impossible! Therefore I submit again it is worthless to soft proof using blurbs profile!

Since it seems there will always be some inconsistency with POD, would a specific ICC profile be of any real use, anyway? Are there any POD services that provide specific ICC profiles and deliver a relatively high degree of consistency?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 02:34:18 pm
Since it seems there will always be some inconsistency with POD, would a specific ICC profile be of any real use, anyway? Are there any POD services that provide specific ICC profiles and deliver a relatively high degree of consistency?
IF the process control were sound (it isn't and I'm not the only one reporting this) then yes, an ICC profile that actually reflects output conditions would be useful for soft proofing. And conversions to the output color space if allowed. That's a big if too. Lots of shops provide profiles they state you can use just for soft proofing but do not permit you to convert the files for output. That's a sign you're dealing with a shop that's not savvy about color management but want unsuspecting customers to think they are. Soft proofing with a profile that isn't used for the final conversion is simply a waste of everyone's time.
What is a POD (other than something dub kids eat instead of throwing in a washing machine?).
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 16, 2018, 02:36:02 pm
It’s a generic profile they expect you believe defines all papers for one and that’s impossible!
Given the HP Indigo press works in a different way to RGB inkjets or CMYK offset presses etc. The generic profile helps gain an appreciation of what you might get.
No it's never going to be entirely accurate, but you will get an idea and so does have some benefit.

POD = print on demand
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 02:46:41 pm
Given the HP Indigo press works in a different way to RGB inkjets or CMYK offset presses etc. The generic profile helps gain an appreciation of what you might get.
No it's never going to be entirely accurate, but you will get an idea and so does have some benefit.

POD = print on demand
I've worked massively with so called POD's (we call them digital presses): Indigo from 5000's on, NexPress, Xeikon all with the goal of creating custom profiles for each type of machine, for shops spread across the globe each using dozens of each digital press per location! Along with process control measures for each site. They can be maintained and calibrated to a nearly non perceptual differences but it takes work and the measurement of custom targets thought the day. It's expensive. IOW, you can get a digital press to behave like an inkjet in terms of consistent output with custom profiles. No generic profiles necessary. Blurb doesn't operate this way!


Blurb doesn't supply a generic profile of their devices that start to define their print processes. They supply one that's not even based on their device let alone the various output differences with respect to differing papers. It's easy to see this by examining the profile they provide! Unless something recently changed, the Blurb ICC profile is GRACoL2006 Coated-1, right down to the paper white L*a*b* values. What they're using is essentially a copy of the IDEAlliance GRACoL profile and has little if anything to do with how they're actually printing. So using it for soft proofing is a waste of time. But if it makes you feel better doing so, have at it.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 02:54:45 pm
The generic profile helps gain an appreciation of what you might get.
Like the idea of soft proofing to sRGB, only after suspending all rational thought and logic would that make sense  ;)
At least with Blurb and the books I've printed using identical images over the course of time, it does not provides appreciation of what you might get. Seems my experience is similar to another here as well. 
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 16, 2018, 03:41:10 pm
Well, two of us in this thread think it is of some value to soft proof, you don't.

Let the OP decide.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: ButchM on January 16, 2018, 04:29:46 pm
Well, two of us in this thread think it is of some value to soft proof, you don't.

Let the OP decide.

Not quite what Rodney was sharing .... soft proofing to a 'known' target could prove very beneficial and can be quite valuable. OTOH soft proofing to a profile that is very likely not the correct target for the end product is merely an exercise in futility. It's like playing darts blindfolded. If you hit the target it's purely the result of chance not measured effort with reliable, repeatable results.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 04:38:03 pm
Not quite what Rodney was sharing .... soft proofing to a 'known' target could prove very beneficial and can be quite valuable. OTOH soft proofing to a profile that is very likely not the correct target for the end product is merely an exercise in futility. It's like playing darts blindfolded. If you hit the target it's purely the result of chance not measured effort with reliable, repeatable results.
Exactly! The OP can examine such facts and see why soft proofing to any profile that doesn’t define the output is folly.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 04:47:05 pm
Here's one view of sRGB (red) versus an Indigo running glossy paper (custom). This should illustrate how idiotic it would be to soft proof sRGB when the output is to an Indigo! Should I plot the differences between the Blurb profile and my Indigo profile to again show how really silly it is to use the wrong profile when soft proofing? Might as well dig up an old Epson 1200 ink jet profile and use that for soft proofing to Blurb; it's just as silly an idea but it may make some here fell they are benefiting from the big fat lie the soft proof indicates. And some here probably don't have the tools to see how their displays may or may not have the gamut to view all the colors from the output device.

The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of soft proofing, is that those who have it are so eager to share it
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 16, 2018, 05:24:29 pm
This should illustrate how idiotic it would be to soft proof sRGB when the output is to an Indigo!
But it doesn't. All that shows is that there's some bits of the Indigo gamut that exceed sRGB.
We both know there's a lot more to this sort of issue than a simple flat screen shot.

Somewhere along the line you should be able to accept that sometimes things don't have to be absolutely perfect to be helpful.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 06:08:18 pm
But it doesn't. All that shows is that there's some bits of the Indigo gamut that exceed sRGB.
Nice speculation without a lick of colorimetric data or proof!
There's not 'some bits' out of gamut; it's massive and hugely visible. You seem to know as little about viewing gamut maps as soft proofing so let's look at actual data.
First, let's convert 988 solids into sRGB and then Indigo CMYK (I'll use a good profile that actually defines the device). Here's the report:
It's sorted with worst dE at the top and those who understand such a report can also see the average dE is 4.7, easily visible but the worst 10% is a whopping 9.77 and the worst offender is nearly a dE of 15. Not sure you even understand what dE means but let me clarify that IF you use sRGB to soft proof to an Indigo, it's a mile off (excuse the non scientific distance, it might sink in for some here).
That's NOT even taking the display into account!!! We're off, way off using sRGB to define a CMYK indigo press. But you seem to believe it's good advise to the OP he should either use sRGB or some profile from Blurb that doesn't define their process. So I think you need to study up on this before posting again. If you need help with dE may I suggest:


Delta-E and color accuracy

In this 7 minute video I'll cover: What is Delta-E and how we use it to evaluate color differences. Color Accuracy: what it really means, how we measure it using ColorThink Pro and BableColor CT&A. This is an edited subset of a video covering RGB working spaces from raw data (sRGB urban legend Part 1).

Low Rez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be)
High Rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4 (http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4)



Suggesting someone use sRGB to soft proof to an Indigo is a bit like someone suggesting that if their images appear too dark on-screen, just turn up the brightness knob on the display, it will look better and somewhere along the line you should be able to accept that sometimes things don't have to be absolutely wrong to be unhelpful.
I apologize if the colorimetric facts ruin your day and by all means, do provide the audience here your own colorimetric data that suggests otherwise.


The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to regularly share it! - The Digital Dog
Here's a close up of the gamut map for you to inspect again....

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 06:17:24 pm
Well, two of us in this thread think it is of some value to soft proof, you don't.

Let the OP decide.
Easier now that he has actual colorimetric data instead of colorimetric fiction.
BTW, I'm a huge believer in soft proofing and suspect I've written more peer reviewed articles and a few video's dating back to the advent of soft proofing (in 1997) than you. By far! Or your friend who believes using the utterly incorrect profile for soft proofing has any merit. Yes, let the OP decide but hopefully his decision will be made based on colorimetric data provided by those who understand how to produce and present such facts.  ;)
Quote
We both know there's a lot more to this sort of issue than a simple flat screen shot.
You've not at all convinced me that's at all true.  :(
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 16, 2018, 06:33:30 pm
Lastly, for the visually inclined: Left is sRGB, Right side is Indigo CMYK. Yes, soft proofing! If they appear the same to you, you should get your eyes examined tomorrow or don't and continue to soft proof using any profile that comes up in the list. Enough said until we can get Rhossydd's colorimetric data to suggest this is all wrong.....


(http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBvsIndigoSoftProof.tif)
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 16, 2018, 09:52:14 pm
Your image isn't showing up, Andrew. I'm seeing a large empty gray box with broken doc icon.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 17, 2018, 04:01:10 am
It's like playing darts blindfolded. If you hit the target it's purely the result of chance not measured effort with reliable, repeatable results.
Interesting analogy. What the Blurb profile says is where the dart board is likely to be, you might not get a double 20, but you're more likely to hit it.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 17, 2018, 05:02:57 am
Well this thread originated back in 2013 and Blurb's requirements have changed since then.
There's now a difference in recommended practice between PDF to book (now prefers CMYK files in their own profile), Bookwright (sRGB) and LR's print module(delivers sRGB as I understand it).

Let's be clear about about a couple of issues.
Waving around dE numbers in this context isn't helpful when looking at this. What you need to know is what colours won't reproduce as expected, not just theoretical colour differences.
What we need to know is where the printer gamut may be smaller than the file's sRGB colourspace . Any colours beyond aren't important as the source file won't have them in it anyway.

For those unused to seeing how an image on a monitor look when arriving in a printed book from Blurb are likely to have a nasty surprise if they haven't got some idea of what that reproduction process will change. In that context soft proofing, imperfect though it maybe with Blurb's profile, will give an idea of what colours will change.

That imperfect insight may help with image preparation, image choice and design decisions for the book.
Redcrown's experience above is a good example of this;
“In one of my Blurb books I had an image of a Japanese woman in a dark blue kimono. It came out a flat, solid blue. All the folds and texture of the kimono were lost. Really ugly. After the fact, I soft proofed the original image. The out-of-gamut problem was obvious. Nothing I could do about it. I wish I had proofed before printing, because I would not have used that image. “
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 17, 2018, 11:03:50 am
Well this thread originated back in 2013 and Blurb's requirements have changed since then.
There's now a difference in recommended practice between PDF to book (now prefers CMYK files in their own profile), Bookwright (sRGB) and LR's print module(delivers sRGB as I understand it).

Let's be clear about about a couple of issues.
Waving around dE numbers in this context isn't helpful when looking at this. What you need to know is what colours won't reproduce as expected, not just theoretical colour differences.
What we need to know is where the printer gamut may be smaller than the file's sRGB colourspace . Any colours beyond aren't important as the source file won't have them in it anyway.


The deltaE numbers clearly illustrate it's just foolish to advise people soft proof using sRGB for anything but sRGB. It's equally foolish to recommend a CMYK profile for soft proofing that doesn't define the CMYK print conditions. You've totally failed to provide any evidence that your recommendation is sound and the colorimetry AND visual examples show your concept is wrong and silly. By all means use your own silly workflow but if you come into forums and advise others to do so, those with colorimetric data and proof will call you out. And you have been called out and you've not provided any evidence your concept makes any sense other than to you and maybe your other friend here.


Let's be clear about a couple of facts already provided that dismiss this idea that soft proofing with ANY ICC profile that doesn't define the actual process is (to be kind) really dumb and a waste of time.
And while you're ignoring any request to provide data to back up your claims, perhaps it is silly for me to ask you to specifically tell us what you mean when you say: Blurb's requirements have changed since then. This another set of assumptions or you have specific data (profiles for one) to prove what they supply is what is used for conversion and output?


Your text about out of gamut is equally misinformed; you again need the actual output profile used for printing to view an OOG overlay which itself is often buggy and not at all useful. So again, you've illustrated to your audience it would be prudent to study the facts and learn from those of us who's day job is involved in color. Or not; just try not to provide so much misinformation on this subject unless you continue to desire to be corrected. OK? 
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 17, 2018, 11:06:44 am
What the Blurb profile says is where the dart board is likely to be, you might not get a double 20, but you're more likely to hit it.
What the Blurb profile says is it's not a profile for any of their output conditions. You'd understand that fact if you understood how to examine the profile itself, but it's not necessary; you seem to believe incorrectly that one supplied ICC profile defines all of Blurb's output conditions, papers and the fact they use differing press technology for differing parts of a book.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 17, 2018, 11:37:28 am
ask you to specifically tell us what you mean when you say: Blurb's requirements have changed since then.
Back in 2013 Blurb were suggesting using the HP Indigo profile as a guide to help image preparation and wanted all files, including with the PDF to book workflow, to be sRGB.
Quote
you seem to believe incorrectly that one supplied ICC profile defines all of Blurb's output conditions, papers and the fact they use differing press technology for differing parts of a book.
I haven't suggested that at all. Correct me on what I've actually written, not what you've assumed I've meant.

I've repeatedly said that using Blurb's profile will give a GENERAL impression of what limitations there are in their processes, I've purposely avoided suggesting that it is anyway a specific or accurate profile for any particular process.
That general impression can be useful to many people.
If it really was so useless as you seem to suggest why would Blurb continue to make it available ? If it was misleading most users it would harm their business.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 17, 2018, 11:58:02 am
Back in 2013 Blurb were suggesting using the HP Indigo profile as a guide to help image preparation and wanted all files, including with the PDF to book workflow, to be sRGB. I haven't suggested that at all.

Yes you did! Here's your EXACT quote back in 2013 Reply #6:
Quote
Whilst there may not be a full and perfect proofing standard to work to with Blurb, soft proofing to sRGB will highlight any serious issues and prevent a lot of surprises.
Rubbish.
Quote
I've repeatedly said that using Blurb's profile will give a GENERAL impression of what limitations there are in their processes
Repeated speculation without a lick of proof, colorimetric or otherwise.
The general impression one should take in this series of posts is you don't understand color management very well. Some others here posting that have called you out absolutely do.
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If it really was so useless as you seem to suggest why would Blurb continue to make it available ?
Because their marketing people are correct in their impression that some of their customers, like you, don't understand color management and soft proofing very well if at all.
Quote
If it was misleading most users it would harm their business.
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument. Or any actual data to back up his misunderstanding.  :(
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 17, 2018, 12:26:50 pm
My goal isn't to get Rhossydd to change his workflow but simply to point out facts to others about how this soft proofing stuff actually works and how it really can't with Blurb. So another data point that will fall on the deaf ears of those that do not make decisions about workflow based on science but rather fiction. I just measured all the papers Blurb provides in their sample book I received, just the papers alone are not even close to GRACol 2006. In fact, the deltaE differences in just the two most different papers are nearly dE4!
One profile for all print processes where the paper alone differs a dE of 4? No! A profile that you cannot pick the rendering intent for soft proofing because not only isn't the supplied profile used but you can't use it for conversion? No! Using the incorrect profile for Out of Gamut preview? No! Soft proofing sRGB (which you must send through LR) for a CMYK process? No!
Forgive me for providing facts that may ruin the day of some posters here who's idea about color management isn't based on color science.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 17, 2018, 02:41:27 pm
Or any actual data to back up his misunderstanding.
Why do you refuse to deal with the idea of a general impression ? something that can't be backed up with 'actual data'. Two of us have said it's helpful, why contradict that ?

Life's too short to waste printing sample books to measure to provide 'actual data'.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 17, 2018, 02:45:43 pm
Why do you refuse to deal with the idea of a general impression ?
It's wrong. Why do you refuse to deal with the colorimetric facts and visual examples that clearly disprove your ideas?
Enough said. You soft proof as you think you should. Lurkers have heard from someone who understands and can provide data to dismiss your soft proofing ideas. Or not; I'm not here to convert people from flat earth concepts but rather to show them with something akin to satellite data, the earth is really round.
Quote
Life's too short to waste printing sample books to measure to provide 'actual data'.
And life is too short wasting time reading recommendations about color management that are simply wrong. But it's your life sir.  ;D
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 04:46:44 am
It's wrong. Why do you refuse to deal with the colorimetric facts and visual examples that clearly disprove your ideas?
Why is the general impression wrong ?
Do you think it's too contrasty ? lacking in saturation ? are the blacks not deep enough ?

Frankly your examples don't prove much at all for the aforementioned reasons. One image isn't even there.
Your example of dE of 4 where comparing papers is interesting as it suggests that side by side you'd see a difference, but in isolation not many people have that level of colour recall.

What disappoints me about this dialogue is your unhelpfulness. Your answer to 'how might my Blurb books look?' seems to be a shrug of your shoulders and say it's impossible to have any idea.
Most people I know who have had books from Blurb would agree that there's a general 'look' to how their photos will appear in print. Blurb's profile suggests that. You're correct in saying it's unlikely to ever be exactly correct because of their range of locations and processes, and I agree totally.

It's bit like someone coming up and saying what's the weather going to be like in Iceland this summer ?
You can't say that on the 17th June it will be 16C with a SE wind speed of 8mph and 3mm of rain.
You can says it's likely to be windy, you'll get rained on and it will be cool not hot. That's likely to be helpful in what clothing to take. That's a general impression that can be helpful.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: ButchM on January 18, 2018, 08:53:56 am
... One image isn't even there.


All images shred are showing in my browser. The issue doesn't appear to be universal.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 09:34:49 am
Why is the general impression wrong ?
Your making this hopeless! I've shown visually and colorimetrically how and why it's wrong. Yet you cannot and will not show us why it's right. I'm again not attempting to convince YOU not to follow your silly recommendations. Only your readers who wish to hear from someone who's day job for two decades in the realm of color had stated multiple times that soft proofing without the output profile is a waste of time; unlike like your inability to prove your idea has a lick of usefulness or produces a visual match (or numeric if you could). Please, continue to waste your time but please stop wasting mine and other's here.

As for a few here who can't see the image on their browsers, not my problem, it works just fine and all you need to do is download the Gamut Test File and convert it to sRGB and some CMYK profile (I used Blurb's silly profile) and look at the two side by side. I know for some, that's too much work and I'm sorry you cannot see the images here but this is a screen capture of Safari that clearly illustrates the two images are showing up:


Quote
What disappoints me about this dialogue is your unhelpfulness.

What disappoints me about this dialogue is your inability to examine the facts or provide one piece of data that suggests your idea has merit. It doesn't. I can't think of anyone in the world of color or photography who understands this topic who would ever recommend soft proofing with the wrong profile or sRGB; it's rubbish. It's OK to fool yourself into believing you're using a sound color management workflow but please do not try to fool others!


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Søren Kierkegaard (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/6172.S_ren_Kierkegaard)
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 09:53:51 am

Lastly, what disappoints me about this dialogue is your dishonesty in what you've said you didn't post about sRGB and soft proofing using it for Blurb that when shown to be true, you ignore your own errors:

Back in 2013 Blurb were suggesting using the HP Indigo profile as a guide to help image preparation and wanted all files, including with the PDF to book workflow, to be sRGB. I haven't suggested that at all.
And proof that will fall on deaf ears:

Whilst there may not be a full and perfect proofing standard to work to with Blurb, soft proofing to sRGB will highlight any serious issues and prevent a lot of surprises.
As seen here:

Yes you did! Here's your EXACT quote back in 2013 Reply #6: Rubbish. Repeated speculation without a lick of proof, colorimetric or otherwise.
So yeah, we have no data from you that shows your idea has merit and now we have a paper trail showing you recommended soft proofing to sRGB (by blindly following Blurb's recommendation or dreaming it up, you clearly believe this nonsense and wish others here to believe it too), and we have a paper trail of you being less than honest about it. Sad.

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 10:02:56 am
It's OK to fool yourself into believing you're using a sound color management workflow
Go back and read what I've said. I've never suggested using the Blurb profile to soft proof is a "sound color management workflow" I've said time and time again it's not a perfect answer, just a general help to understand what you might get.

It's impossible to deliver 'actual data' that the soft proofed image looks closer to the book I have on my desk than not using it. It's just disingenuous to suggest that's possible.

You're saying if it's not absolutely perfect, it's no use. I'll disagree with that and get better results by having an idea of what I'll see in my next book.

Quote
showing you recommended soft proofing to sRGB
At the time it was the best route to gaining an impression of what the printed outlook would be like. If you're outputting to sRGB from LR why not soft proof to the destination profile ?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 10:41:15 am
It's impossible to deliver 'actual data' that the soft proofed image looks closer to the book I have on my desk than not using it. It's just disingenuous to suggest that's possible.
Your concept has no proof or merit. You can't find any outside reference (perhaps other than Blurb) that suggests anyone use the WRONG profile for soft proofing.
What is impossible thus far is for your text on soft proofing to be taken seriously because it's been shown to be colorimetrically wrong and visually wrong while you've provided nothing to suggest let alone prove anyone should follow your or Blurb's advise about soft proofing. Enough said; your flat earth color theories are just that and I've shown multiple examples, along with what many lack (common sense) as to why the only profile to use for soft proofing is the profile used for the conversion to the output device. Simple.

I have the perfect answer since you don't: USE the actual ICC profile for soft proofing that defines the actual output and allows you to honor the rendering intent you pick per image for that conversion. IF you can't do that, soft proofing is worthless to those with a lick of common sense or those that have a lick of understanding about color!
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If you're outputting to sRGB from LR why not soft proof to the destination profile ?
BECAUSE IT ISN"T THE DESTINATION PROFILE!
I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.  Over and out.  :o
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 11:31:13 am
OK, so you want numbers.

I remembered that when I was doing some testing for Blurb (you're not the only one here with a professional interest in CM) I popped some test charts at the end of a book. As the vacuum cleaner is broken and I'm sitting here waiting for scripts to arrive I've a spare half hour.

Method
A profiling target was printed on the back page of a Blurb book.
Measured with an i1Pro with GMB Colorpicker record Lab values
Load the same file into PS and assign ProPhoto RGB take Lab values
Covert file to sRGB take Lab values
Convert to Blurb profile take Lab values

Five random patches measured.

Average dE between all patches.
What LR would show you (Prophoto is as close as I have a colourspace for)
PP to printed page dE 69
sRGB to printed page dE 46.8
Blurb profile to printed page dE 19.1

Some patches showed very large dE 122 to 4.5 from PP to the page
Some much less so 1.9 > 1.2
Which is exactly what we would expect.

So real actual measures of printed pages back up the visual impressions that the profile is more useful than not.

No it not the exact destination file we all know that. But it IS close enough to be useful.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 12:00:41 pm
I remembered that when I was doing some testing for Blurb (you're not the only one here with a professional interest in CM) I popped some test charts at the end of a book.
Covers and backs are printed on a differing product than the pages. So you're lost already with your testing methodology!
Quote
So real actual measures of printed pages back up the visual impressions that the profile is more useful than not.
Nope, not even close. And not enough to make it useful but by all means, continue to convince yourself it is.
Quote
What LR would show you (Prophoto is as close as I have a colourspace for)
That's wrong too. You're really on a roll here. Tip: When deep in a hole of your own digging, stop digging.
And your indefensible recommendations about soft proofing to sRGB or that sRGB is the destination profile as you posted today is more evidence you're lost here. Do get the last, wrong concept of soft proofing on the pages here if you really must but I'd recommend you just stop digging.
Quote
Some patches showed very large dE 122 to 4.5 from PP to the page
Some much less so 1.9 > 1.2
Which is exactly what we would expect.
You've provided a set of numbers based on a hugely misguided methodology but the wrong numbers also show the massive dE errors if we accept them (which I don't). Nor do I accept what a poor testing methodology you came up with; next time ask an expert how to conduct such testing. You'll save a of time and end up with data that is useful, not fictional.


Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 12:14:04 pm
Covers and backs are printed on a differing product than the pages. So you're lost already with your testing methodology!
Oh common read it.. back PAGE

Quote
Nor do I accept what a poor testing methodology you came up with; next time ask an expert how to conduct such testing. You'll save a of time and end up with data that is useful, not fictional.
So how would evaluate the difference between a printed page and three different proofs ?
The data isn't 'fictional' it's the data I've just measured. Have you ever actually done anything like this with a Blurb book ? if so, post your numbers.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 12:53:58 pm
Oh common read it.. back PAGE
So how would evaluate the difference between a printed page and three different proofs ?
The data isn't 'fictional' it's the data I've just measured. Have you ever actually done anything like this with a Blurb book ? if so, post your numbers.
Here's what I've done: I spent 4 years with my partner, spending literally hundreds of hours, at multiple locations all over this planet, in shops for one customer (a Fortune 50) setting up Indigo's Nexpress and Xeicon digital presses for color managed output of books like Blurb would love to be able to produce, along with setting up process control procedures to ensure the color from all plants is within a very small dE agreed upon by this big company. That's my day job. What's yours?
I don't need to measure anything to see how far off Blurb's process control is; I've printed the identical book over the course of time and I don't need a Spectrophotometer to see how the output differs from Blurb. So not only like you, do they not have a solution for soft proofing their products, they can't even keep their devices consistent enough to match output over the course of a few months. Another reason why soft proofing to their product, even if they did provide the actual output profile, (which they do not and which you cannot seem to wrap your head around), is pointless. It's a moving target and I'm not the only one here who's seen this result!

You don't have the CMYK profile for their process.
You can't control what Rendering Intent they use (begging the question, which to use for soft proofing if they even could keep their process in-line and supply a profile to reflect this).
You can't send sRGB or soft proof sRGB to a digital press; it's pointless. Open up any ICC profile to soft proof, you'll end up with the same incorrect rendering of what you'll get.
You don't understand the fundamentals of soft proofing; use the actual profile and RI to soft proof and then convert.
You are wasting my time with you lack of acceptance of the points above. And I don't expect you ever will but your audience has data and an opinion from someone who's spent far, far more time color managing digital presses (and probably everything else) than you sir.


Assuming your day job (undefined) isn't say a doctor, do you find your time is well spent at his/her office arguing with them about the subject of medicine you have little if any training in? I suspect you probably do. Again, for your readers, an important consideration when trying to evaluate who's advise to listen to: The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to regularly share it! - The Digital Dog
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 01:12:04 pm
What's yours?
Can't be bothered to look at my profile then ?
I've been here for 8 years just on this ID and another before LuLa trashed it.

I had a big respect for your opinions before, but your current dismissal of my visual assessments and your suborn refusal to accept any possibility that a general impression is more useful than total ignorance has made me reassess that.


Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 01:18:47 pm
Can't be bothered to look at my profile then ?
Can't be bothered to actually state what it is you do?

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 01:21:17 pm
Can't be bothered to actually state what it is you do?
So you can't be bothered to click on the web site icon then ?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 01:27:27 pm
So you can't be bothered to click on the web site icon then ?
Confirms my suspicions that you like to argue with people who have vastly more experience and understanding of a topic (color management) than you.
Hole 2 feet deeper. Let's move on; your concepts are based on color science fiction.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 18, 2018, 02:55:12 pm
I really don't like to argue with anyone, especially someone who is reasonably knowledgable about a subject.

However you're telling me I'm wrong with the evidence I'm seeing here.
When I give you measurements to back up my observations you say they're wrong, but won't say why or how one could make measurements that you'd accept.

I've not disagreed with your statement that the Blurb profile is in any way a definitive tool for soft proofing.
I simply don't understand why you can't see that there is a compromise view of it being useful without it being a 'correct' solution at the same time.
For a colour expert you seem to taking a very black and white attitude to this. It's really very unhelpful to just say there's no way at all of knowing what you might get from Blurb, when that doesn't seem to be the case in my, and others, experience.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 18, 2018, 03:10:19 pm
I've not disagreed with your statement that the Blurb profile is in any way a definitive tool for soft proofing.
It's a totally inadequate one! It's color science fiction. I prefer Stephen King!
I just measured ONE patch from the two books from Blurb printed over time. The patch was from an image of a MacBeth Color Checker (purple). It's is nearly a dE of 8!
NO profile, custom and certainly not canned, that doesn't define the print conditions can be used for soft proofing when the output varies this much.
Quote
I simply don't understand why you can't see that there is a compromise view of it being useful without it being a 'correct' solution at the same time.
You've been told repeatedly why and more data just above but again, it will likely fall one one person's deaf ears. I'm OK with that.
Quote
For a colour expert you seem to taking a very black and white attitude to this.
Unlike you, I'm taking a colorimetric attitude and all the measured data thus far, show that Blurb doesn't supply a profile for their process and their process control kind of sucks. So yeah, pick ANY ICC output profile to soft proof and throw that dart blindfolded and enjoy the wasted time doing so. I'm here to help others; you made up your mind about how useful sRGB or a profile that doesn't define device behavior is for you. As for others, let em waste their time or not. The data is as clear as the nose on your face; Blurb's profile and Blurb's process control doesn't provide a sound color managed path. So long.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Chris Kern on January 18, 2018, 07:52:51 pm
Delta-E and color accuracy

In this 7 minute video I'll cover: What is Delta-E and how we use it to evaluate color differences. Color Accuracy: what it really means, how we measure it using ColorThink Pro and BableColor CT&A. This is an edited subset of a video covering RGB working spaces from raw data (sRGB urban legend Part 1).

Low Rez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy0BD5aRV9s&feature=youtu.be)
High Rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4 (http://digitaldog.net/files/Delta-E%20and%20Color%20Accuracy%20Video.mp4)


Thanks for posting this: commendably clear.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: herminy on January 24, 2018, 12:33:55 pm
Wowza! Er...thanks for responses...?  ;) This is all helpful. As I am new to this forum and to using this type of forum in general, I thought I would get a notification via e-mail if anyone responded so I didn't realize all this was going on, and in the interim I did my own feeble experiment and sent in a "test" book to blurb for printing. Of note: My ultimate goal is to make 100 50 page books as part of a larger project my husband and I are working on. We're not rich, so I am researching the POD option (winds up being about $19 per book with Blurb)...which is leading to much hair pulling! Here's what I did: I tried 3 different options for several images, side by side in the book. Option 1, corrected in Photoshop using the ICC provided by blurb with gamut warning turned on. Option 2, same as previous but then pulled those images into LR and corrected further (if necessary) using sRGB profile as recommended by Blurb. Option 3, I just corrected for print in Photoshop as though I were going to print my image on my Pro-1000 at home, doing all corrections that I would normally do prior to adding an ICC profile for whatever paper I would use (so NO ICC profile other than what I set up for my monitor). I bet some of you can guess what I got back...They all basically looked the same, except that the ones with the sRGB correction looked kind of dead and overly desaturated in some areas. The good news? I get a proof copy before I go ahead and get 100 made. The bad news, I don't even feel very confident that the bulk order will match the proof copy! Mind you, some of the pics looked pretty great, as I chose the "Proline Pearl" paper option and it seems nice for the price. I don't know yet whether I will wind up going the Blurb route. Do any of you recommend any other POD options over Blurb? I am looking into AsukaBook, but I don't know yet if there is an option for such a small run of books that can meet what I'm hoping for print quality-wise. Thanks for any and all help here.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on January 24, 2018, 03:45:17 pm
Hannah,

If you decide to go with Blurb, after you have a reasonably satisfactory sample copy, be patient! Wait for Blurb to offer a discount of 35 to 40% and then order your big batch.

Once you have bought a book, they will email you frequently urging you to order more, and 40% discounts seem to be offered several times each year, as are lesser discounts. I haven't seen any in excess of 40%.

Good luck with your project!

-Eric M.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 24, 2018, 05:42:51 pm
I've got a Blurb book on it's way which was once printed over a year ago. Identical book sent through Lightroom except, a year or so apart. In the books are more than one page of a Macbeth which I"ll measure and report back. First report will be to compare the 24 patches printed this week versus a year ago. This will tell us how consistent the output is. Then I'll use the actual supplied Blurb profile to convert the Macbeth to get Lab values and compare what the profile predicts versus what the output is! This will tell us the accuracy of the supplied profile (on a mere 24 patches but that's a start). Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: herminy on January 24, 2018, 06:40:59 pm
If you decide to go with Blurb, after you have a reasonably satisfactory sample copy, be patient! Wait for Blurb to offer a discount of 35 to 40% and then order your big batch.

Once you have bought a book, they will email you frequently urging you to order more, and 40% discounts seem to be offered several times each year, as are lesser discounts. I haven't seen any in excess of 40%.

Good luck with your project!

-Eric M.

Hi, Eric! Thanks! I actually contacted their customer service department for a quote on the larger order when I started the process. The book I hope to order, if I do get it from them, would "normally" cost about $55 for one copy, they are quoting me about $19 per for the bigger order, so it's a pretty good deal...if it turns out looking nice!

Andrew, thanks for your info and I will be curious to see what you come up with. I am getting a total crash course in color management since buying a Canon Pro-1000 printer a few months ago. It's not as painful as I expected...but it's still a little painful. ;)
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 01:24:22 pm
New book from Blurb with images printed through LR in the past. Here's just the color differences between the same image (MacBeth 24 patch target) on the outside cover and the inside:

--------------------------------------------------


dE Report


Number of Samples: 24


Delta-E Formula dE2000


Overall - (24 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   5.84
    Max dE:   9.13
    Min dE:   1.40
 StdDev dE:   2.12


Best 90% - (21 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   5.39
    Max dE:   8.52
    Min dE:   1.40
 StdDev dE:   1.87


Worst 10% - (3 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   8.96
    Max dE:   9.13
    Min dE:   8.74
 StdDev dE:   0.20


--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------


SAME Blurb ICC profile for download is said to describe the two; really?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 01:27:24 pm
New book versus old book, just the MacBeth from inside each:



--------------------------------------------------


dE Report


Number of Samples: 24


Delta-E Formula dE2000


Overall - (24 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   6.30
    Max dE:  19.24
    Min dE:   1.19
 StdDev dE:   4.34


Best 90% - (21 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   5.05
    Max dE:  12.14
    Min dE:   1.19
 StdDev dE:   2.70


Worst 10% - (3 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:  15.01
    Max dE:  19.24
    Min dE:  12.82
 StdDev dE:   3.67


--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
Max dE is pretty awful!
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 02:50:36 pm
Now show a before and after of an actual photo of the two prints that comprise a wide range of colors in the form of actual photographed scenes (not just Xrite CCchart flat colors) so we all know what the visual differences these Delta numbers reflect.

Lab numbers can shift by as much as 5 points without showing a visual difference and Lab is the reference for Delta number mismatches.

I'm sure I'll get a straight forward and respectfully toned answer from Andrew as well as the A/B print proof I requested to back up what he says.

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 03:04:35 pm
Now show a before and after of an actual photo of the two prints that comprise a wide range of colors in the form of actual photographed scenes (not just Xrite CCchart flat colors) so we all know what the visual differences these Delta numbers reflect.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 03:14:08 pm
And where's an actual photo taken of a real scene containing a wide range of colors to show how off the Blurb print is from the actual digital file.

If Blurb is using a CMYK offset commercial printer and no custom profile it's guaranteed it's not going to match "perfectyl" due to the very small gamut of commercial presses compared to even sRGB except with cyans. It's how off and objectionable it makes the photo look is what's important. Consistency between prints is second in importance. Split hair precision to the original sRGB file is wishful thinking with offset printing unless the paper is printed on glossy paper and even that will show anomalies down into the darker colors.

Inkjet printing would give a closer match but still not as precise as a custom profile across ALL possible photographed scenes.

And thanks, Andrew for the straightforward answer.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 03:17:36 pm
And where's an actual photo taken of a real scene containing a wide range of colors to show how off the Blurb print is from the actual digital file.
Some yes. It shows a visual difference. A very big one!
And as of the moment I'm typing this, you haven't even viewed the numbers:

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 03:35:25 pm
I viewed the numbers but I don't and can't see visual differences in color patches that will translate into how screwed up it makes the printed photos compared to the original digital file.

Examining color patches in relation to Delta numbers for me is a waste of time when it comes to how it changes the aesthetics of the printed photo. Perfect match is the goal but how much time is spent getting there I have to way against whether it will increase sales or desire for the printed photo.

People viewing the printed photo will either say it looks like crap or it looks beautiful without having the original digital file to compare against. If they see the original first and there is a slight mismatch, if the photo is desirable they may just chock it up to the limitations of the technology.The decision on whether they want to buy the print whether it is in a book or hanging on a wall will be influenced by other factors other than just Delta E number mismatches to the original digital file.

Your posted Xrite CCchart prints shows it is far worse than I thought, but I don't know how much a custom ICC profile will fix it. I certainly will not be using Blurb to print books if it's that bad.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 03:38:15 pm
What the worst (dE 19) patch looks like:
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 03:40:12 pm
People viewing the printed photo will either say it looks like crap or it looks beautiful without having the original digital file to compare against
They don't match. That's what you're missing. They should; they are suppose to both define, by the same profile, something useful for soft proofing OR even considering a match? They don't match. By a lot.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 03:45:48 pm
They don't match. That's what you're missing. They should; they are suppose to both define, by the same profile, something useful for soft proofing OR even considering a match? They don't match. By a lot.

And you're missing the point on whether those that would use Blurb to print photos they care about or want to promote as a way to increase sales should expect a perfect match to the original file or just be happy the print reflects the original intended aesthetic.

I've seen some color photos of our local parks printed on my local papers newsprint and have been surprised they're as good as they look considering they've been printed on what amounts to toilet paper. Oh, I doubt they match the original but I don't know how much is on account the newspaper uses a custom ICC profile.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 03:52:23 pm
I think what would help quite a bit for those deciding to use a printing service like Blurb is to present an original digital photo that looks fabulous and pleasing that contains a wide range of colors and show how the aesthetics (the like factor) of the photo are altered or reduced by showing twp versions of the print, one without a custom profile next to the one printed using an ICC profile.

That would really show how useful this technology is.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 03:56:04 pm
I think what would help quite a bit for those deciding to use a printing service like Blurb is to present an original digital photo that looks fabulous and pleasing that contains a wide range of colors and show how the aesthetics (the like factor) of the photo are altered or reduced by showing twp versions of the print, one without a custom profile next to the one printed using an ICC profile.

That would really show how useful this technology is.
By all means, please do so. On your dime. I've printed two books now on my own dime and provided my data. Please start your own print output project and provide data.
Without data, you're just a person with an opinion.  ;D
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 04:08:02 pm
That 19 Delta measurement of the burnt orange color is pretty bad but can you show how much a custom ICC profile can fix it vs how much it would be limited by offset printing technology and paper being used.

I don't think it's opinion that you can't possibly turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 29, 2018, 05:18:05 pm
how much a custom ICC profile can fix it vs how much it would be limited by offset printing technology and paper being used.
A huge chunk of this thread has repeatedly said that it's simply not possible to provide a specific custom profile for the exact press your book will use. There are just too many processes and presses across the world to do it.
Andrew has again produced proof that even on a single book the cover and pages won't be exactly the same due to those differences.

Where we differ is the usefulness of the profile Blurb provide;
Andrew says it's entirely useless.
Some of us say it's helpful in gaining an idea of what the books will look like, even if it's not to be entirely relied on.

Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 29, 2018, 07:29:58 pm
A huge chunk of this thread has repeatedly said that it's simply not possible to provide a specific custom profile for the exact press your book will use.
It is quite possible to do so, I've done it. With many, many dozens of presses. They all have to behave the same and they all have to do this consistently! My tests show this isn't possible with Blurb.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 29, 2018, 10:25:28 pm
A huge chunk of this thread has repeatedly said that it's simply not possible to provide a specific custom profile for the exact press your book will use. There are just too many processes and presses across the world to do it.
Andrew has again produced proof that even on a single book the cover and pages won't be exactly the same due to those differences.

Where we differ is the usefulness of the profile Blurb provide;
Andrew says it's entirely useless.
Some of us say it's helpful in gaining an idea of what the books will look like, even if it's not to be entirely relied on.
I've thoroughly understood the purpose of this thread but fail to see why anyone would want to use a book printing service to reproduce one's cherished photos and yet expect to get an idea of what it will look like. What do you expect to see? Quality? or some reasonable facsimile? Not a chance in my book.

Why does one want a book of their photos? To preserve the quality in the form of an archived hard copy instead of printing each individually and placing in a photo album?

If Blurb is printing by outsourcing to numerous different CMYK offset presses on non-glossy paper, quality is not one's concern and especially color matching so why even soft proof. Just send it to Blurb and hope for the best which won't be the image's best rendition with concern to archival quality. That book will act as a rough cut preview of a much better looking image that no one will ever be able to see.

I'm facing the same issue with all my fantastic looking images in that I have too many to be able to afford to print even an 8x10 of each so maybe there could be a high quality contact sheet printing service that at least prints 4x6's to be archived in a photo album.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 30, 2018, 01:29:32 am
It is quite possible to do so, I've done it. With many, many dozens of presses. They all have to behave the same and they all have to do this consistently! My tests show this isn't possible with Blurb.
<sigh>We all know it's possible to build "custom profiles", what it isn't possible to do is know which actual printer Blurb will use for any individual book. Hence why any profile they supply will only give a general idea of what you might get, not a specific output profile.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Rhossydd on January 30, 2018, 01:47:38 am
Why does one want a book of their photos? To preserve the quality in the form of an archived hard copy instead of printing each individually and placing in a photo album?
I would hope that anyone who has seen a book and seen a high quality photo print (inkjet or analogue) will appreciate that book printing can never really match 'proper' photo quality.

For me, and most people I know that print their own books, we choose to bring together sets of images to build a story from. You can then build a narrative with images, and sometimes appropriate text, that isn't so easy with say 120 individual images. It provides a different context for our images that isn't possible with a box of prints.
I'm sure we'd all love to perfect proper 'photo quality' reproduction, but economically it's just not possible yet for us. Maybe one day ? but for now 'book quality' is better than nothing.
Of the POD services I've seen Blurb gives the best value. There's a lot worse, but anything significantly better is usually a magnitude more expensive and beyond my budget.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 30, 2018, 10:47:59 am
<sigh>We all know it's possible to build "custom profiles", what it isn't possible to do is know which actual printer Blurb will use for any individual book. Hence why any profile they supply will only give a general idea of what you might get, not a specific output profile.
<sigh> clearly this is a topic that confuses some of the people posting here.
This has nothing to do with custom or non custom profiles! ICC profiles define device behavior or they do not. Blurb's not only doesn't, the bigger issue is, their process control sucks!
I don’t know if some here purposely trying not to understand this, or if they are really struggling with it.
I sent the SAME RGB values from 24 patches to Blurb over the course of a year. They are a MILE off in terms of matching. No profile defines both or either I suspect but it doesn't matter. Even the SAME book is a mile off between the cover and the inside yet some here continue to believe the ONE profile Blurb supplies is of any use. It isn't. Nor do they conduct adequate quality control; patches should not be 19dE off from each other, ever!


I've worked in shops that have far more digital processes, spread across the world than Blurb does, and yes, they can be managed such they never produce a single dE error over 5! In EVERY press in operation. People like Rhossydd, Tim and now presumably Blurb have no such experience setting up color management systems with profiles that notify a client within minutes if their press run exceed a set of deltaE metrics. It's called process control. it is time consuming and expensive and hobbyists labs like Blurb, the labs some here use for soft proofing and utterly inconsistent print output use them too. Now you know why I do not, expect for actual colorimetric testing so few here can conduct and a few do not understand.


NO! Their one profile is not a general idea of what you 'may' get, and if you understood the ramifications of a dE 19 (or even dE9) means, you'd retract that non colorimetric comment really quickly.

Blurb can't maintain process control. Blurb's profile is not based on their output unless and perhaps you're lucky enough to print on a day when the moon and star's align perhaps. The next day, the next month, all bets are off. They were off 19dE in one example; that's horrible. Again, without data, you're just a person with an opinion. My data suggests it is based on misunderstanding of maintaining the ideal behavior of ICC profiles for large numbers of digital presses. I'm sorry again if actual data has ruined your day.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 30, 2018, 10:51:42 am
I would hope that anyone who has seen a book and seen a high quality photo print (inkjet or analogue) will appreciate that book printing can never really match 'proper' photo quality.
Nor without a lot of work, it's consistency. Had you ever created ICC profiles for a major printing company for them to release, as I have, you'd know this fact too.
That's what actual colorimetric experience teaches some of us. If you have only imagined it, you haven't experienced it.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 30, 2018, 10:54:52 am
I've thoroughly understood the purpose of this thread but fail to see why anyone would want to use a book printing service to reproduce one's cherished photos and yet expect to get an idea of what it will look like.
What you thoroughly don't understand is the purpose of process control, where you send the same RGB numbers of ANY image to a device and get the same color appearance you got in the past and will get in the future. Some of us expect consistency in our work and output. Some can't figure out IF they should calibrate and profile a display, let alone actually do so. That's the difference between a pro photographer looking for professional quality and consistent output and a hobbyist. Blurb's inconsistent output and I suppose more so, their pricing, is ideal for all you hobbyist who don't care if the color today and the color in a month are off (differ) by a mile.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: David Eichler on January 30, 2018, 12:32:35 pm
What you thoroughly don't understand is the purpose of process control, where you send the same RGB numbers of ANY image to a device and get the same color appearance you got in the past and will get in the future. Some of us expect consistency in our work and output. Some can't figure out IF they should calibrate and profile a display, let alone actually do so. That's the difference between a pro photographer looking for professional quality and consistent output and a hobbyist. Blurb's inconsistent output and I suppose more so, their pricing, is ideal for all you hobbyist who don't care if the color today and the color in a month are off (differ) by a mile.

POD services like Blurb are not just for hobbyists. Many professionals use them as well. Of course they realize the limitations in doing this, but these books still have their place for professional usage. For example, a former teacher of mine at NESOP, Neal Rantoul, has used Blurb (and before that, My Publisher) to print many books of his art photography, which he prints in quantity and sells. Neal is a master digital printer as well as a master printer with traditional black-and-white gelatin-silver. Not saying the print quality of the POD books would be near that of exhibition prints, but these books are a relatively inexpensive way to disseminate one's work with acceptable quality. Would always advise doing a proof copy first before having multiple copies printed.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: digitaldog on January 30, 2018, 01:14:58 pm
Would always advise doing a proof copy first before having multiple copies printed.
What does one do if the proof is spot on/approved and the finished product differs visually by a large amount?  :-[
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: David Eichler on January 30, 2018, 01:45:15 pm
What does one do if the proof is spot on/approved and the finished product differs visually by a large amount?  :-[

According to the former teacher I cited, when he has pushed back against poor print quality and color, he has been able to get them to do another
print run and been pleased with the (eventual) results. Given the consistency problems, if doing this a lot, it makes sense to deal with a local service,
which is what this person has done, with resulting lower cost and higher convenience. Of course, not everyone will have this available to them. Looking for
such a service in the San Francisco Bay Area, if anyone knows of one.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 30, 2018, 03:18:16 pm
It's called process control. it is time consuming and expensive and hobbyists labs like Blurb, the labs some here use for soft proofing and utterly inconsistent print output use them too. Now you know why I do not, expect for actual colorimetric testing so few here can conduct and a few do not understand.

According to the former teacher I cited, when he has pushed back against poor print quality and color, he has been able to get them to do another
print run and been pleased with the (eventual) results. Given the consistency problems, if doing this a lot, it makes sense to deal with a local service, which is what this person has done, with resulting lower cost and higher convenience. Of course, not everyone will have this available to them. Looking for such a service in the San Francisco Bay Area, if anyone knows of one.

Between all the time Andrew has spent preaching to the choir over this subject vs Blurb's reprinting a entire book for those not satisfied with their print quality, who is making more of a profit?

I don't think it's Andrew, so why does he keep hanging out here arguing about technical issues no one can afford to implement anyway? He's already asserted his authority on the subject so what else does he get out of these discussion other than the joy of beating a dead horse.

I too would like to know an efficient way to print a lot of my images but at a price I can afford that at least maintains the print quality of a Fuji Frontier drylab at Walmart. Right now I can get 8x10's for $3 each and they can print larger if I wanted them to at slight cost increase.

I guess this is as good as it's going to get...
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 30, 2018, 03:39:58 pm
I didn't need to soft proof those Walmart prints but I did download a Fuji Frontier drylab ICC profile from Dry Creek Photo's database and assigned it to an sRGB (the color space the Frontier drylab prints in) sample image and got a very close match especially burnt oranges that originally looked yellow.

That printer profile was more accurate at predicting the hue shifts more so than even Andrew's Delta E measurements of the Blurb printers.

Wonder if there are canned CMYK icc profiles in Photoshop that could be used as a predictor of similar hue shifts by converting to a "standard" CMYK profile that reflects closely the characterization of the Blurb prints and implementing the same assigning routine that worked for the Frontier in standard sRGB in my case. I can't do this because I've never printed to a CMYK offset press. But from what David indicated it might not be worth the trouble.

This is how I soft proofed in sRGB for one of the Walmart Fuji Frontier prints shown above...
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: David Eichler on January 30, 2018, 05:14:41 pm
Between all the time Andrew has spent preaching to the choir over this subject vs Blurb's reprinting a entire book for those not satisfied with their print quality, who is making more of a profit?

I don't understand this comment. Presumably, the vast majority of Blurb's customer base is not as demanding as the person in example I have given. Otherwise, Blurb and similar services would have to rethink their business model. It kind of makes sense for them to leave things as is. If they were to offer a premium service to more demanding customers at a higher cost, then that might have adverse consequences for trying to market their standard service to the hoi polloi.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on January 30, 2018, 05:46:30 pm
I don't understand this comment. Presumably, the vast majority of Blurb's customer base is not as demanding as the person in example I have given. Otherwise, Blurb and similar services would have to rethink their business model. It kind of makes sense for them to leave things as is. If they were to offer a premium service to more demanding customers at a higher cost, then that might have adverse consequences for trying to market their standard service to the hoi polloi.

That was more a rhetorical question, David, as a comment comparing Andrew's point about the expense of maintaining consistent color managed process controls across a series of different CMYK printers vs having it good enough seeing that Blurb will still make a profit even if they get a demanding customer such as your teacher you cited where he pushed back and got what he wanted from them.

So, is it worth getting it "good enough" and not being able to soft proof accurately, when as you've said with the teacher, it's possible to get Blurb to do a reprint if a customer is not satisfied?

Don't see the importance of soft proofing if Blurb will do a reprint.
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: David Eichler on January 30, 2018, 06:26:56 pm
That was more a rhetorical question, David, as a comment comparing Andrew's point about the expense of maintaining consistent color managed process controls across a series of different CMYK printers vs having it good enough seeing that Blurb will still make a profit even if they get a demanding customer such as your teacher you cited where he pushed back and got what he wanted from them.

So, is it worth getting it "good enough" and not being able to soft proof accurately, when as you've said with the teacher, it's possible to get Blurb to do a reprint if a customer is not satisfied?

Don't see the importance of soft proofing if Blurb will do a reprint.

It is worth to the person I cited because it offers a way to disseminate a fair amount his work at a reasonable price, with adequate quality for someone who is an experienced and demanding maker of exhibition prints. If he had to rely only on traditional book publishing, he would have many fewer opportunities for having his work published and disseminated. Furthermore, the consistency issue aside, the print quality levels of various traditional book publishers can vary quite a bit, with some being not that much different from typical POD quality. Obviously, there are a few POD printers with higher consistency than Blurb and the like, but what is the cost involved for, say a typical 11 x 13 monograph-style book?
Title: Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
Post by: herminy on February 06, 2018, 03:15:23 pm
An update, for what it's worth. I'm making a hundred books for a project, and was considering blurb for this to keep it economical. This thread has been helpful. I ordered a book with some side by side correction/profile options for me to get a feel for how they do, but as has been stated here multiple times, that sample means nothing because they may do something totally different next time. Consistency is the issue. I have approached a local printer that has an HP indigo digital printer and can make the book I'm hoping to make for $19 per book and I won't have to pay for shipping like I would have through Blurb (and it would have been a lot!). The nice thing is that they are right here in town, and they will make a proof for my approval that I can look at WITH THEM. If anyone out there is trying to do a small run of books economically, this seems like a nice route. If you have a reputable local printer that offers indigo digital printing, it may not be as expensive as you might have thought to make a book with them (obviously NOT if you are only making 1 or 2 copies).