Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: KevinA on January 19, 2013, 06:42:37 am

Title: Profit from Prints
Post by: KevinA on January 19, 2013, 06:42:37 am
Do people make a decent living out of selling Fine Art prints or is it just a paying hobby?
I'm just curious to know, not a side of photography I have considered in the past. I know there are the $1000,000 guys, I'm thinking more of the local guy selling prints.

Kevin.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: framah on January 19, 2013, 10:27:06 am
Remember the old adage:

Don't quit yer day job!

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Go Go on January 19, 2013, 10:55:54 am
Hey Kevin,

Fine Art is a business, why not research is like a serious student and find out the answers to your questions?

Go to a small gallery and talk to the owner...
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on January 19, 2013, 02:36:34 pm
It's a two step process.

1. Become a famous artist-photographer...

which will enable you to...

2. Sell fine art prints for lots of money.

It's tough business.  My suggestion is, a beginner should only do the print thing if he wishes to remain a hobbyist.  It's hard to make a part-time living in La Vie photographique, you either have to go for it 100%, or have a day job.

But OK, start by placing striking, LOCAL-INTEREST prints in local tourist spots, local galleries/gift stores, and local framers.  Be prepared to accept a commission-based sales scheme.  In the meantime, start building your reputation by doing art fairs and getting interviews in local publications and radio and TV shows.  Hint...those interviews will be a lot more forthcoming if you buy advertising, which is probably not worth it.  There's a guy who sells really pretty, nicely matted, 8x10 digital prints in a local, high traffic gallery.  I mean, gorgeous, knock-yer-eyes-out images!  About 2 sales a month.  And don't do the card thing.  Just don't.

Of course, that's the timid path.  Alternatively, you can jump right in doing outrageous, flamboyant work right off the bat and move directly selling through outrageous, flamboyant galleries.  It's happened.  Takes a certain amount of moxie.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Colorado David on January 20, 2013, 08:57:04 pm
A colleague of mine who has been a professional commercial photographer for years recently started in the fine art print business.  His accountant has told him he now has an expensive hobby instead of a business. ;D
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: gerafotografija on January 21, 2013, 02:48:03 am
Being of the scientific persuasion, I decided a test was in order. After researching the multitudinous ways that people attempt to profit from hosting and reselling your photos, i decided that the least treacherous path currently available is through Redbubble.

After spending a few hours setting up shop, linking to my photoblog on Wordpress.com, I am now a photo entrepreneur with no initial cash outlay. Well, not including camera, lens, software, ISP, computer, time and effort, etc...

I'll let you know how it goes.

If you would like to buy a nice panoramic print reminiscent of Thomas Gainsborough's ouevre, check it out here (http://www.redbubble.com/people/gerafotografija/works/9874082-crystal-forest-panorama?c=185489-nature&p=mounted-print).
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2013, 04:34:28 am
A colleague of mine who has been a professional commercial photographer for years recently started in the fine art print business.  His accountant has told him he now has an expensive hobby instead of a business. ;D


Funny; my accountants always maintained that I had a habit; almost suggested I take up coke instead and save money.

God knows what they were on, but they took plenty of mine!

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: roskav on January 21, 2013, 07:19:31 am
He he.  (Combined with a normal photographic practice I think that prints at best break even when you take time and customer care into account - what they are useful for though is making sure your name is up on somebody's wall who will perhaps show to friends or colleagues) At any large un-commissioned volume you are going into retail, with all of the responsibilities that entails.
R
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2013, 08:44:09 am
There are folk out there who have six figure turnover and yet still struggle to make a living.


That's opaque: you mean they really find it difficult to turn a photographic profit on that, or simply have different expections to mere mortals, or are wastrels?

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2013, 10:26:28 am
Really find it difficult to turn a photographic profit living on that once time and all expenses are taken into consideration.



Then I hate to say it, Keith, but that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there absolutely, really, truly and inescapably was a Golden Age - once upon a time!

;-)

Time's a tough one to figure: can you even begin to think in terms of day-rates, hourly rates etc. when you work, basically, for yourself, hoping to sell without benefit of assignment? Closest I got to that state was with stock: I didn't enjoy either the system or the stress; it utterly ruined my concentration, totally the reverse experience to doing more or less the same thing on assignment. The freedom from financial worry that the latter provided was a huge plus both emotionally and creatively, because one felt the need to top previous efforts for the same clients, and that did push the effort a bit further.

Rob C 
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: framah on January 21, 2013, 10:54:53 am
Long, long ago... I mean LONG ago!!!... I decided to set up at arts and crafts fairs in the tri state area (NY, NJ, Pa) and sell my matted photos and note cards. Initially, i was actually making close to $500 on a good weekend. That was almost as much as I was making at my office job.

Soon tho... the economy pooched and I was paying $300 to enter the show and driving 3 or 4 hours to get there and only making about $50 for the whole weekend.
I was looking for any unlocked dumpster on the way home just so I could throw all of it away!!

I quit selling my stuff until I got my framing business going and could have a place to hang my prints. I still consider it a hobby of sorts, but I don't care because I don't have to rely solely on my photos to survive. My framing business allows me to have a nice life and still afford to go play with my cameras when the  bug hits me.

Thus my "don't quit yer day job" comment.

It was hard enough when it was a really good economy. I can't imagine trying to start something like that in THIS economy.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Colorado David on January 21, 2013, 11:40:14 am

Funny; my accountants always maintained that I had a habit; almost suggested I take up coke instead and save money.

God knows what they were on, but they took plenty of mine!

Rob C

A story about the friend I just mentioned.  He's an excellent commercial photographer, Brooks Institute educated.  We would be driving somewhere for lunch and he'd see a homeless guy trying to fish coins out of a fountain.  He'd say "look, there's a retired photographer."
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2013, 11:55:01 am
Rob, perhaps you're forgetting about inflation, it's a great leveller.

100,000 GBP sounds like a helluva lot of dosh until you take inflation into consideration. 8,000 GBP in 1970 would be worth approx 103,000 GBP now. Did you consider a turnover of 8,000 GBP a helluva lot of money in 1970? Would 8,000 GBP turnover have been the basis for a good living?


You have a point!

God, has it really changed as much as that?

(Rolls eyes and thanks lucky stars!)

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 21, 2013, 11:59:05 am
Long, long ago... I mean LONG ago!!!... I decided to set up at arts and crafts fairs in the tri state area (NY, NJ, Pa) and sell my matted photos and note cards. Initially, i was actually making close to $500 on a good weekend. That was almost as much as I was making at my office job.

Soon tho... the economy pooched and I was paying $300 to enter the show and driving 3 or 4 hours to get there and only making about $50 for the whole weekend.
I was looking for any unlocked dumpster on the way home just so I could throw all of it away!!

I quit selling my stuff until I got my framing business going and could have a place to hang my prints. I still consider it a hobby of sorts, but I don't care because I don't have to rely solely on my photos to survive. My framing business allows me to have a nice life and still afford to go play with my cameras when the  bug hits me.

Thus my "don't quit yer day job" comment.

It was hard enough when it was a really good economy. I can't imagine trying to start something like that in THIS economy.

It certainly is problematic. As a working photographer I never gave print sales (as in loose prints) a thought. My mo’n’lo used to say I should sell them in the local framers’ shops – there was a couple around locally – but I always used to try and explain about the expense/economics of getting four-colour litho up and running at less than a few thousand copies a pop (and I had fine relationships with some good printers that ran my calendars for me). There was no bromide print history around in my area beyond straight commissioned work, and Ciba was far too limited to work with without access to better facilities than mine.

I would sometimes envy art galleries – they seemed to exist and sell stuff – and that was all painting apart from one Glasgow outlet that sold Annan prints – old historical Scottish material. Then, during a trip by car from here to Scotland we discovered a shop in Sarlat selling photographs as prints, framed or loose, and also books by the same photographer (Francis Annet) who also ran the shop. Sitting slap, bang in the middle of a very touristy old town, he had it made. I envied him his condition. He did landscape, as in misty views of the countryside, the Dordogne river, the Pyrénées, and his wife/partner (I don’t know) worked the shop. Cool.

How the current crisis has affected them, I have no idea; all I can say is that a rural hotel that we used to frequent on both legs of our trips, in Payrac, is on what used to be a busy N route; when the motorway was developed, bypassing it by several miles, I think life changed quite drastically. It has since changed hands and also name. Change, the only constant.

Rob C







Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 21, 2013, 03:58:55 pm
... In 1957 a Hasselblad 500C cost £270. In today's terms thats £5316. Today you can buy a new 503CW for £2466 list and less than £2000 street.

That's an interesting comparison. However, although the comparison choice appears to mimic apples to apples, the reality is a bit more complex. 500C back then was state-of-the-art, top-of-the line, just like 503CW years ago. Perhaps a different (better?) comparison would be with the "state-of-the-art, top-of-the line" Hasselblad today?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on January 21, 2013, 04:12:14 pm
In the early 60's I bought a new 500C and a spare mag for $580, including the 80mm Planar.  Also picked up a new 150  Sonnar for $450. Cleaned me out, but oh what a camera!  And still formidable in its analog sort of way.

IMHO the only way to make money from prints is to sell them framed.  If you try to sell bare prints along side that, you're only hurting yourself.  At retail level framing is valued more than prints, fact of life.

The Enemy. (http://o3.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/PATCH/resize/273x203/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/patch/138324d4e1d2147c9794b514e14c0811)
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Kirk Gittings on January 21, 2013, 10:09:46 pm
Quote
IMHO the only way to make money from prints is to sell them framed.  If you try to sell bare prints along side that, you're only hurting yourself.  At retail level framing is valued more than prints, fact of life.

FWIW. That is not true in the market that buys my prints. 8x10 inkjet matted sells for $400-framed $450. I just sold a large print 2x4 feet. It went for 4100.00 and change framed. Frame costs were about $400.00 if memory serves.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on January 21, 2013, 11:40:42 pm
FWIW. That is not true in the market that buys my prints. 8x10 inkjet matted sells for $400-framed $450. I just sold a large print 2x4 feet. It went for 4100.00 and change framed. Frame costs were about $400.00 if memory serves.

Hey Kirk, can I borrow your customer list?   :)  And congratulations!  Takes a while to develop a market like that, and no small amount of talent.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Kirk Gittings on January 22, 2013, 12:08:35 am
Had my first show in '72. ........90 shows later.........jezz it only took 41 years to get here!  :o
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bretedge on January 22, 2013, 07:40:31 am
I read each and every response and it seems I'm going to be the contrarian here.  I opened a gallery last March in Moab, Utah.  We sell canvas gallery wraps and archival plaque mounted prints as well as calendars, greeting cards and small matted prints.  Our goal for the first year was to not lose our asses.  We made a profit.  A small profit, but a profit nonetheless.  We managed that even in a less than stellar economy and we did it without the benefit of a 12 month "season" as the tourists are only in Moab from March to October.

How did we do it?  First of all, it's a tourist town and though our season may not last the entire year we've got 8 solid months of heavy tourist traffic.  We opted for a low rent space with Main Street visibility.  We're 1/3 of a block away from the main shopping district but our rent is half what it would have been for the same space just a few dozen feet to the south.  My wife and I run the place, so we've got no employee expenses.  We priced the prints reasonably and offer free shipping anywhere in the U.S., which makes it much easier for people to pull the trigger.  We barteed with local tourist guides for free advertising in exchange for the use of a few of our photos.  We invested in gallery quality LED lights up front and saved a ridiculous amount of money on our electric and air conditioning bills, and we didn't have to replace bulbs every 2 to 3 months.

In a nutshell, I do think you can be profitable selling prints if you've got a market and the ability to reach that market. 
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: framah on January 22, 2013, 09:11:37 am
Had my first show in '72. ........90 shows later.........jezz it only took 41 years to get here!  :o

Ayuh!! Couple more yeahs and you'll staht gettin' good at it!! ;D
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: HSakols on January 22, 2013, 09:43:42 am
Lately I've been more interested in making prints than selling them.  My job as an elementary school teacher helps me along and has to be my priority for now.  However, I found I was able to sell small nicely matted prints, but only rarely could I sell large sized prints.  The problem is I want to print big (well 16x20).  I don't want to frame my larger prints because then I have no place to store them and they just get dusty.  I think I'll take up boats or golf instead.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 22, 2013, 09:49:06 am
BTW, in 1957 that £270 for the 500C was the equivalent of six months salary.


Keith, where on Earth did you pull that from?

I can hardly remember a time when any simple tradesman wasn't making at least 20 quid a week, which is about a grand a year. Right, as an apprentice 1st-year engineer in mid '56 I think I made about two pounds and a few shilling a week, but we were only starting out and wasting more company assets than providing any profit to the firm!

In '73 or '74 I bought my Humber Sceptre for just over a grand - I think an average salary was around double that? In '59 my first Ford, the then new Popular with a side-vale 1172 (?) cc engine (and three gears with no synchro on first!) was just around five hundred, which was where the first Mini came in at introduction later that year. I was happy not to have bought the Mini, but would feel very different about today's version, which is nothing like the original box. And bloody expensive here, even for the most basic One.

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 22, 2013, 12:10:11 pm
In way of a reminder of the state of the nation: I used to be given a nice, large calendar with all of the local fiesta and saints' days (important to know in case you thought you were going to the bankl) as well as a little bit of scribble space, by my local veg and fruit seller. There wasn't one this year, and as I didn't need or desire to pay for one of those de luxe tourist ones you're supposed to buy as presents, with glorious scenics of the island, I decided today to visit one of the other local shops - a general stationery outfit that sells school jotters etc. - and buy one from them. The girl told me: the two suppliers on the island have gone out of business...

I walked out onto the pavement wondering where the hell to try next, and then I thought of the printer who did my business cards for me (we used to call them calling cards some time ago...) so I went there to try my luck. He smiled when I asked, and said that nobody was doing private calendars anymore - he'd had two clients this time around. But my guardian angel was on duty: he (the printer, not the angel) reached over to a wall and took down a large business calendar from one of his trade suppliers and handed it to me. So there I was, a free calendar better than the one I didn't get from the greengrocer. The printer told me that last year he had a staff of six; this year, there's but two people working there.

Was a time I used an English printer in Derby called Bemrose; they did lots of bespokes for private corporate clients apart from the stuff  I gave them, and also sold stock ones in tiny volumes to smaller firms that couldn't afford more than, say, fifty units. They did fine-art reproductions of paintings, too, and I think they also did banknotes and security stuff. They had a huge factory. I recently met a retrired chap here who used to be in the printing press sales business; he told me that Bemrose had gone belly-up a couple of years ago, leaving behind nothing but a tiny, reduced ticket-printing outfit. No wonder photography stock has dived, quite apart from penny-pirates!

;-(

Rob C

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 22, 2013, 01:11:27 pm
...We made a profit.  A small profit, but a profit nonetheless...

Does that include a reasonable salary for you and your wife? Equipment depreciation? Or just a profit resulting from subtracting direct expenses from print sale revenues (e.g., paper, ink, framing, gallery rent and utilities)?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: fike on January 22, 2013, 01:32:32 pm
Does that include a reasonable salary for you and your wife? Equipment depreciation? Or just a profit resulting from subtracting direct expenses from print sale revenues (e.g., paper, ink, framing, gallery rent and utilities)?

That's what I was going to ask. Are you paying yourself a half-decent living wage for a desirable tourist town?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 22, 2013, 01:54:12 pm
Rob, the quote "The 500C was taken up by an enormously wide range of photographers almost from day one (1957). Despite its price, an eye-watering two hundrend and seventy pounds in the UK (when a good family income for the year was five hundred pounds) its obvious superiority in both quality and effectiveness made it the default choice for anyone using medium format film to earn their living. " comes from a History of Hasselblad cameras.

The following link is from an article in the Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/8374130/Facts-about-Britain-at-work-in-the-Fifties.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/8374130/Facts-about-Britain-at-work-in-the-Fifties.html)


Well, I came back to Britain in '53 and can't remember anyone working at those levels; as I said, I started working as an apprentice in '56 and was getting about 125 quid a year doing next to nothing in my first year. Four years later it rose to about nine quid - over 450 p.a. for an apprentice.  The guys beside me, time-served engineers, were getting way, way above any of that.

Frankly, I trust these newspapers not at all on anything. I have just listened to the interpretations of Prince Harry's soundbite on shooting from his chopper: boy, can these press people change what's said, even when it's said to the public so the public can hear the original, as did I. They have set him up as a target for the next T'ban crazy that reaches London.

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Chairman Bill on January 22, 2013, 02:47:29 pm
A note on UK newspapers - The Daily Hate Mail is possibly the biggest threat to democracy in Britain today. People believe the lies & misrepresentations it prints. Sad.

As for selling prints - I was in a local art shop a week or so ago (wife was buying something), and I asked about the photographs she was selling. They weren't very good. I'd have been embarrassed to show some of them to next doors cats, let alone offer them for sale. But people were buying them nonetheless. But they were so cheap. Once I'd factored in the price of paper, ink, mounting/matting & framing, I wouldn't even break even, let alone cover the shop's 40% take. No profit there. Then she explained - it was bog-standard photo paper, the sort you might buy in a supermarket. The mounts & frames were poor quality, bulk-buys. I'd spend more on the paper than the photographer had on the mount & frame. "Nobody cares too much about the paper & the quality of the inks" she explained. So there you have it. Even so, I reckon the photographer was making about £15 - £20 per photo, and not selling too many at that.

Question is, would her customers spend more for better quality images on better quality paper, with better quality inks and so on? I'm not convinced they necessarily would.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 22, 2013, 05:20:07 pm
One positive thing: this thread made me go out and actually order a replacement yellow for my HP B9180; heaven knows where that madness might lead me! It's been dead so long that perhaps the daily runs that the machine is supposed to make have not, in fact, been made... if so, then it's time to go bigger, spend more money and get even less in return!

I love progress.

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bretedge on January 22, 2013, 10:26:28 pm
Does that include a reasonable salary for you and your wife? Equipment depreciation? Or just a profit resulting from subtracting direct expenses from print sale revenues (e.g., paper, ink, framing, gallery rent and utilities)?

My business does not rely solely on print sales to be profitable.  However, when expenses related to making prints are deducted from the revenue created selling prints, there was a small profit.  When all the other income streams (stock image licensing fees, assignments, workshops/tours, e-book sales, etc.) are added into the equation, we earned what we consider to be a reasonable salary.  As anyone with any business sense knows you shouldn't expect to crush the market in your first year.  If you break even, you're doing good.  We did a little better than that with regard to gallery sales.  I expect that as we build a reputation and client base we'll improve print sales each year.  Obviously, this isn't a business where overnight success is likely and we're in it with long term goals.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Ellis Vener on January 24, 2013, 09:01:37 pm
"Profit from Prints?"

I certainly do my best to!
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 24, 2013, 10:11:57 pm
I've been selling my prints for just over two years now in a small ski town in Canada. I've been able to support myself (just) selling primarily unmatted 8x12's, 12x18's, 16x24's and a couple panoramas (one of which is a best seller at 12x48").

Costs are continuing to grow as I progress though, from selling out of my car in front of a friends cafe/restaurant all winter where only my framed pieces hang, to doing farmers markets in summer, then renting a vacant store front with 30' of well lit window space and a separate office 1 block away (again selling outside all winter), to moving into a 600 square foot gallery (month to month, no lease) 7 months ago. Carrying the rent cost will be a challenge come spring and fall though which are slow.

At the moment I'm trying to find ways to lower framing costs though. Can anyone recommend other Canadian wholesalers besides larsen-juhl as I shop around. I'm also looking into "Frames by Mail" and pictureframes.com (both of which my framer recommended) and was wondering if anyone knows what duties there might be on frames from the U.S. to Canada. I live 40 min from Montana where there's a shipping outlet so I can pick up orders fairly easily.

Edit: I guess for reference I should list my prices (which just went up by 15%)
8x12's are now $115
12x18's  $230
16x24's.  $380
24x36's. (Just 2 images so far in this size are offered, primarily because my 4880 is only 17") $800
And the 12x48 is at $690 (3 of which sold just before Christmas. 1 was framed and priced at $1700)
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on January 25, 2013, 01:36:58 am
If you were in the US I'd tell you to go to the West Coast Art and Framing Show in Las Vegas, NV.  The vendor booths are open Jan 28-30.  You can see almost every important framing vendor there in one spot, including some wholesale readymade frame guys.  I go to see moulding, yack, and eat bad $15 sandwiches.  Epson and Canon have booths this year, wisely placed at opposite ends of the building.  Last year Epson showed glassless, framed example prints of their entire media line, which made going almost worthwhile just for that.  Was also fun to see the wiggy but clever canvas coating machine, etc.

http://s19.a2zinc.net/clients/ezhobbypub/wcaf13/public/MainHall.aspx

I build all my own frames, which saves a bundle but can be pain just ahead of shows or the holiday season.  After about the 2,000th frame you can do it with your eyes closed, in almost no time.  A helper comes on line next month, woohoo!  The retail, online framing suppliers are to be avoided in terms of the price points you need for your kind of operation.  You can do much better if you are willing to buy in wholesale quantity large enough for good discount and to not be killed by freight shipping minimums.  Photographers sometimes enter alliances with local framers, you might check that out as well.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 25, 2013, 05:13:05 am
That's an interesting idea about the Vegas show. Hmmm. Probably can't afford it but as you say, it would be valuable to see so many examples in one place.

When I'd mentioned my local framer, that's what I actually have with her. She's basically charging me cost plus, as well as a cutting fee for the glass and mat. I get a case of 40x60" acid free foam core, cut that down and do the assembly myself, picking up from her the joined frames (which come joined from Larsen-Juhl) and the cut to size mat & glass. In exchange, she'd be getting a greater discount on her overall order which gives her more profit with her other customers. I just have no idea how much of a discount I might be getting and it changes with each order. My bill just comes as "custom framing, $4500". ...and its an hours drive each way, which means 4 hours total each time I make the order.

 My December order with her came to about $4500 after tax which was for 15 pieces, pretty much based around getting the bulk discount on ordering  4 cases of 40x60 UltraVue glass (8 lites total). The moulding ranged in size from that for a 6x24" pano, to a pair of 24x36's. The six pano's (2 of each size with 2.5"-3.5" double matting) used a moderately expensive "ferrossa" moulding, and the rest were a moderately priced black moulding on 7, 16x24's and 2, 24x36's all with a single white or black mat of 6 inches.

3 of those 16x24's went out the door the day after I picked them up as they were for a commission, and 1 small pano and 1 large pano sold this month already, leaving me feeling a bit short on framed display pieces of my best seller. So i'm thinking of another order but perhaps not as large and so less of a discount. As well as my gallery, I still have 4 pieces three doors down in the cafe/restaurant which gets a tonne of exposure and send people to the gallery, as well as 1 medium pano down the street in a specialty deli with higher end clientelle.

Anyway, the online retailers looked roughly not far off price wise from what I'm getting, but I'd still have to get glass cut which I don't have the space for to do myself and Frames by Mail appears to have a silver metal moulding which seems popular that I had found initially over two years ago, but haven't seen since (it had come from Michaels then).

There is another ~300 square feet of office space here which makes sense for me to rent, but I just don't think I can carry the expense through the quiet time, and to rent that, it would make the most sense to then have a 44" printer and all the necessary framing tools. Which means more time framing.... and although I now have a large collection of framed pieces, my sales are still mostly loose prints, though that may perhaps be changing as my prices rise. This month in fact nearly all my sales were framed. 5 framed pieces went out the door (2 separate sales) to Calgary or local condos. All but 1 were 16x24" or larger.  Hmm.... lots of decisions to make...  and I'm still just scraping by... but I suppose i can drop everything on a moments notice if I want and go for a ski. Which i couldn't do if working for someone else.

The 4880's been churning out print after print for 3 years now and I think about the possibilty of it breaking down at any moment, so the investment in more space and a new bigger printer and some proper framing tools seems like the logical next step. Along with trying to generate sales online... lots of uncertainty though with quiet time coming up and uncertainty with the space too which is month to month at a low-ish rate in a building which may soon be sold. At some point too, I'll need to get more photos and a bit more of a life....

Profits? Not quite yet if I account for all my time. A meagre living though and my work is spreading and becoming well known. Maybe in a couple more
years... if i want to continue the time investment....
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on January 25, 2013, 10:51:38 am
> …I'm also looking into "Frames by Mail" and pictureframes.com (both of which my framer recommended)

I buy a lot from pictureframes.com and they generally produce an excellent product and the prices can’t be touched by local shops, especially for my larger pano frames. If you buy in volume and talk with them on the phone, they’ll give a price break. Otherwise get on their mailing list as they run promotions nearly every week.

Also, I sell lots of works that are mounted by the use of clear corners on foam core and covered by a clear plastic bag. Along with this, I recommend that my customers go to pictureframes.com for frames.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on January 25, 2013, 01:58:49 pm
Lately I've been more interested in making prints than selling them.  My job as an elementary school teacher helps me along and has to be my priority for now.  However, I found I was able to sell small nicely matted prints, but only rarely could I sell large sized prints.  The problem is I want to print big (well 16x20).  I don't want to frame my larger prints because then I have no place to store them and they just get dusty. I think I'll take up boats or golf instead.



Boating will sink your finances, however much you have, because its always proportional; golf will turn you into a frustrated soul with limited conversation.

Stick with silly prints - you can always burn them in the end if you run out of heating money.

Sound advice; free! Who said Christmas only comes once a year?

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 25, 2013, 03:10:28 pm
Quote
mounted by the use of clear corners on foam core and covered by a clear plastic bag

This is how I sell my prints as well. Photo corners on foamcore.

I've spent a bit of time now on the pictureframes.com site and haven't come across many mouldings that I like. They seem to have a lot of fairly ornate stuff and if I think about what customers have told me, it seems contemporary, simple designs would be more popular. There are a few on the framesbymail site that are appealing though. I also found their site easier to use than pictureframes.com

I'm beginning to think it may just be easiest to get supplies directly from Larsen-Juhl....  it's still a nuisance to drive to Montana to pick things up even though it would likely only be a few times a year.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on January 25, 2013, 03:12:20 pm
Nairb, paying $300 per framing job is certain death.  My total cost per piece for a 24 x 72 pano mounted in a 32 x 80 frame is considerably less than $100, and that includes everything from amortization on the coffee machine to recent price increases in Ibuprofen.  That's where you need to be to make a living at the ordinary levels of the retail art world.  Takes a lot of homework.

Canvas is the ideal medium at your level.  No glass, no mattes, no sealing the back of the frame, no crud stuck under the glass.  If you're out in the boondocks, the amount of heavy freight shipping is hugely reduced just by not using glass.  Mount the coated canvas, build a simple rectangle of moulding, cut the mounted canvas to fit, slam it in the frame with Fletcher points, add wire, and voila!  Looks fabulous on the wall.  You will not hear a word about "no mattes."  All you will hear is "OMG does that price include the frame, wow!"  I won't tell you how little time I have invested per frame because you wouldn't believe it.  While I have owned some very expensive framing equipment, the extremely efficient production equipment I actually use could be bought for under $1000.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 25, 2013, 03:37:10 pm
Roughly speaking I'd say I was paying about $225 to frame (doing the assembly myself) a 16x24" print with 6 inches of mat and anti-reflective glass, making a piece that measures 32x40" which I have priced at $800. From what you are saying, I should be able to get this for less than $50??

By mounted, do you mean frame, glass, matting, and backing board? If so, who is your supplier(s), because, so far I've only been able to find Larsen-Juhl as a supplier here in Canada and I've been told that even their wholesale prices are not much lower than what I've been paying. I haven't yet been able to find out what duty may be charged on framing materials from the US...

My main concern with the cost of the framing tools is that it will cost me an extra $500/month to have the space needed to use them.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: KenBabcock on January 25, 2013, 03:40:47 pm
Bill, I'm curious what moulding you use.  I don't ever mount canvas myself - only stretch.  But now I have visions in my head of walking through Home Depot stores seeing 16' lengths of moulding stacked and just can't imagine any of the goofy moulding sold here at my local Home Depot store wrapped around the perimeter of a canvas.

Heck, I can't even purchase Miracle Muck here in Canada to mount a canvas to Gator.  Stretcher bars all the way here.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: framah on January 25, 2013, 05:17:24 pm
Nairb... No, he can't get it done for that amount if you are using anti-reflective glass. The glass alone would be more than that for your supplier.

If you were only using regular glass then, maybe, you might be able to do it for that much. Plus if Bill only prints on canvas and frames that.. then, in that case,
yes, it is quite cheap that way.

Bill....that is why his process are so high. He's using museum glass. Not cheap stuff! ...and  I forgot to expense my pain pills!!! That is why I'm always broke! ;D

$225 is  a good amount for what you are getting.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: framah on January 25, 2013, 05:22:52 pm
Ken, forget Home Despot. Up in Canada, you MUST have some woodworkers who can shape you some cheap moulding. It doesn't have to be fancy, just a nice clean capture.

It's too bad there are those tariffs or whatever on stuff you buy in the US and ship across the border.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 25, 2013, 05:40:04 pm
Well not museum glass, but Tru vue UltraVue which is still anti-reflective but blocks 65% uv vs 98% and has no tint. The reason I chose this is that I have quite a number of very dark night images, so they get framed with black mat. Without the anti reflective, it will basically just be a mirror with so much dark behind it. Yes, she showed me her wholesale price in the book when I ordered it and with the discount it was ~$460 for a 2 sheet box if you ordered 4 boxes at 40x60". Which for that 16x24 I'd mentioned, the 36x28.5" piece of glass would be about $98 wholesale. My former rental mate who was setting up a custom framing business in the back of my space (the 300' office I'd mentioned) quoted me $345 to do that 16x24" print. I've also grown to very much dislike the non-glare glass. I can't look at it anymore without feeling like I need to rub my eyes.

I've seen so many photos done on canvas wrap and the look just doesn't work for me. It's mostly the texture as well as the smearing of detail and necessary matte finish. That and there is so much of it now and mostly dirt cheap and poorly done that it seems it's not far off from buying a poster. Photo paper mounted on aluminum or dibond looks pretty good with a float mount, but I question it's durability and longevity.

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on January 28, 2013, 11:29:41 pm
I've seen so many photos done on canvas wrap and the look just doesn't work for me. It's mostly the texture as well as the smearing of detail and necessary matte finish. That and there is so much of it now and mostly dirt cheap and poorly done that it seems it's not far off from buying a poster. Photo paper mounted on aluminum or dibond looks pretty good with a float mount, but I question it's durability and longevity.

Nairb,

Funny you should say this because canvas prints for me are going well.  Since I sell wholesale, the numbers just don't work with frames pieces.  I do sell prints, but let the framing stores that sell my work frame it up.  They are of course happy because most of the money goes to them, versus selling a canvas where 50% of it goes to me.  But the look of canvas is quite nice.  

I am surprised you are complaining about a matte finish.  I find the glossy finishes on canvas look unattractive and I am using a mostly matte surface for my canvas.  It does of course lose some contrast, but it looks more elegant to me and most store owners like it more.

But hey.. you gotta do whatever works.  I would love to actually put the canvas in a frame, that would satisfy the asthetic appeal, but as you know, moulding is just soooo expensive.  Canvas really seems to be the only way to make money.   As a reference, canvas prints that I do, anything from 20x40 to 18x72 would be in the neighbourhood of $200 to $300 wholesale, and then a 100% markup by the store.

I would love to see some of your work.  Its awesome that you are able to sell to the higher end of the market. 
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 30, 2013, 11:55:15 pm
Oh, I know that canvases sell well. I just don't like the look of them, so I don't want to offer something I'm not fond of aesthetically.

I actually am not fond of matte prints on paper either. I prefer a bit of gloss to a photo as well as the contrast that comes with it. Perhaps I'd feel differently about portraits, but I don't do much of that. This preference could very well be due to the fact that I haven't experimented too much with printing on matte as switching my 4880 is costly and tedious. It also simplifies things by not offering too many choices.

You can see some of my images here (http://brianpollock.ca/)

As it happens, I've just sent off a quote for someone who was in on the weekend and wants a 24x36 and three 16x24's. The snow plow and the army truck images. She wants to get them framed herself in Calgary, which is how many of my sales go. Unframed prints. But this may perhaps be changing now that I have a gallery space with more framed pieces hanging. This has been the case since December anyway; more framed pieces selling than prints.

Brian

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on January 31, 2013, 03:06:40 pm
Oh, I know that canvases sell well. I just don't like the look of them, so I don't want to offer something I'm not fond of aesthetically.

As it happens, I've just sent off a quote for someone who was in on the weekend and wants a 24x36 and three 16x24's. The snow plow and the army truck images. She wants to get them framed herself in Calgary, which is how many of my sales go. Unframed prints. But this may perhaps be changing now that I have a gallery space with more framed pieces hanging. This has been the case since December anyway; more framed pieces selling than prints.


Thanks for showing me your porfolio... some really nice stuff in there.  I especially like the night pictures with the city lights, mountains and stars.

I completely understand where you are coming from with regards to having to like what you sell.  But I think that you have to learn to seperate the photography/art from the business.  I had to do this and it has paid off.  In my local area, cityscape pictures were going for $40 in the store... this is a 9"x36" print on luster.  I was shocked to see this, because this was retail, so my wholesale price had to be much lower.  Can you imagine selling a picture that size for $20???  So in the end, I had to give in if I wanted to compete.  I joke around now that I no longer am a photographer selling art, but rather a printer selling ink and paper, it just happens to be my image on it.  The thing is that I am in a tourist town and many of these go out the door, so instead of them not buying anything if its priced too high, I am happy when the store phones up and order 10 more prints.  It keeps my printer well lubricated and puts some money in pocket.

Sure I wonder if I am killing sales of more expensive sizes, but the bigger canvases of that same image still go.  In the end, you wanna give a customer choice and capture both types of customers, rich and poor.  The rich ones might go for the 6 foot canvas, the poor ones might only ever consider the cheap paper print.  But I think the idea is to extract as much money from each image as possible.  At least this is how I am doing it now and it is somewhat working.

I also go the canvas route because customers love a finished piece that is ready to hang.  If they just buy a print I think many are shocked to find out what it costs to frame it.  With canvas, your markup for materials is huge compared to what your markup can be for framed pieces, which I think you are seeing.  If a framed piece sells for $600, I think you'd be lucky to have the materials come in at less than $200... where as with canvas, your margins would be much better.

Since you have the space now, I say try a bit of canvas.  I know you say you don't like it and I can understand that, but if someone comes in and buys it, isn't this better??  The good think also is that its easy to sell them rolled canvas and they can just have it stretched at home, which for them will be much cheaper than framing a piece and you are keeping way more money.  Look at it like this.  If they have $600 to spend, but can't carry a framed piece home, you are stuck selling them paper for $100 and someone else gets all that money.  If you sell them a framed piece, you have still invested well over $200 in the materials.  If you sell them stretched canvas, your materials are way less than $100, and if its rolled, you saved the time stretching and can also charge more for the rolled canvas since their cost to stretch it will be much less than their cost to frame a paper print.  The way I think about it is what does it cost to put that art on the wall and how much of that total value can be in my pocket versus someone else's pocket.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 31, 2013, 04:09:30 pm
I've got lots to consider as I continue to do this.

I've just today had two people come in inquiring about this train image. The first was from Toronto and his initial question was whether it was a limited edition (it is not. I number and sign but do not limit and have sold 5 at this size now with the price going from $560 just about 2 yrs ago to $800 now. More like 10-20 pieces sold in each of the smaller sizes). His friends didn't come in as they had a dog so they left after just sticking his head in the door and taking a business card. He didn't even ask about the price. The second guy walked right to me in the back and asked "how many thousands?" assuming it would cost that much.

I also just received word from the woman from last weekend that she'll be here beginning of March and will definitely take the train image but her husband wants to see the truck images in person. I let her know that because of the interest in it, I'll likely be increasing prices in the near future.

So then I need to ask myself about having several pricing levels. For the images that garner less interest.

*and just now as I was writing this another woman from Ontario walked in to inquire about the train image. She'll be back with her husband.

Brian
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on January 31, 2013, 05:23:48 pm
Haha.. well then.. never mind what I say!  Your location certainly brings in the affluent customer so that probably requires a much different business model then what works in a big town with lots of competition such as what I am facing.

The image in question that is now $800... is this a framed piece?  What size and how much are you paying for all your materials?  I have been following this thread and see you are using top end materials that are costing you roughly $300.. is this correct?  Still not bad if you are pocketing $500.  The price of the paper and ink is almost negligible when you are selling at the upper end, so I just wonder about all your other material costs.  How much would you sell just the print for and in what size?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 31, 2013, 05:29:09 pm
Unframed print sizes are

  8x12 $115
12x18 $230
16x24 $380
20x30 $575
24x36 $800  framed I have this priced at $1850 with framing material costs at about $350 perhaps a tad more.

I had someone in here two weekends ago who wasn't sure the 24x36" (framed to about 38x50") was large enough for the space he had in mind.

edit: Oh and about a year ago I had a woman propose having this image used to cover a 16' high wall in the entry way of their new condo, applied as a mural. They never followed through though.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on January 31, 2013, 05:55:04 pm
Wow... excellent.  I am dealing with wholesale prices rather then retail, so that certainly means my prices are half of what retail prices are, but that is still great that you have buyers who have deep pockets!  Thanks for all the info about your business.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on January 31, 2013, 07:57:02 pm
Yes, well my other costs are pretty high still (ie. rent) and then this is also a ski town so come mid April there won't be many people around until July and August, then real quiet again until December...
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: telyt on February 08, 2013, 04:40:24 pm
I've spent a bit of time now on the pictureframes.com site and haven't come across many mouldings that I like. They seem to have a lot of fairly ornate stuff and if I think about what customers have told me, it seems contemporary, simple designs would be more popular.

I (and my customers) also prefer simpler contemporary mouldings so I make them myself from a variety of hardwoods.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on February 08, 2013, 06:33:10 pm
Would love to see some samples!  After using your router I assume... do you stain it or what kind of finish?  I just started making my own stretcher bars.  Incredible what I was paying before compared to now!
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: telyt on February 08, 2013, 10:53:53 pm
Would love to see some samples!  After using your router I assume... do you stain it or what kind of finish?  I just started making my own stretcher bars.  Incredible what I was paying before compared to now!

I'm getting better results with a radial arm saw.  I usually finish them with a watco oil topped with urethane.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on February 09, 2013, 07:34:25 am
Framing is definitely the costly factor for me when selling prints, either my fine art work or client stuff like portraits.  I do get my frames wholesale from suppliers like Larson-Juhl, but get them ready-made and pay a premium for that. 

What are you guys that are building your own using to assemble the moulding or stretcher bars? Is it frame production equipment like under-pinners or more traditional woodworking techniques?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: telyt on February 09, 2013, 09:07:40 am
What are you guys that are building your own using to assemble the moulding or stretcher bars? Is it frame production equipment like under-pinners or more traditional woodworking techniques?

I'm using traditional woodworking techniques.  There's more labor involved so depending on how I value my time there isn't a lot of savings OTOH the cash outlay for building inventory for a show is more manageable and the customers like the quality.  I also have a huge array of wood species, grain and finishes available.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 09, 2013, 11:46:52 am
Framing is definitely the costly factor for me when selling prints, either my fine art work or client stuff like portraits.  I do get my frames wholesale from suppliers like Larson-Juhl, but get them ready-made and pay a premium for that. 

What are you guys that are building your own using to assemble the moulding or stretcher bars? Is it frame production equipment like under-pinners or more traditional woodworking techniques?


I looked into doing that and almost bought an underpinner to add to my wood working tools, but found that some framing shops can produce outstanding results and ship them to me for less than I pay for sticks locally. Plus it is 1 thing less to worry about and spend time on. If there is a problem, they ship the fix in a couple of days. The combination of quality and ease, and frankly, lower cost than doing it myself, is what lead me to using pictureframes.com and economyframes.com. I only buy frames and sometimes do the final assembly for these, but still do the other parts in-house.

At my next show, I’m partnering with a framing company who offered me a bunch of coupons to hand out at the show. They don't sell art and i'd rather not sell frames unless i have to. This combination means I can promote my works and people can get frames made to their impulse. It is a win-win, at least in theory.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: jjj on February 10, 2013, 03:51:05 am
.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 10, 2013, 10:43:22 am
.

+1
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on February 10, 2013, 01:40:20 pm
I make my own frames for my large canvases.  I wield the investment I made in that ability as a WMD against all competitors, both imaginary and real.  And it about doubles my net profit.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 11, 2013, 12:02:11 pm
^ To manufacturer at scale it is always valuable to control the entire process in-house. From earlier conversations it sounded as if you buy your framing materials at an exceptional value and iirc, also have the skills to do something approaching a karate chop with a compound miter saw. No matter the particular technique, doing precision cuts takes way more than just some practice, and it really sucks (and adds up) when you’re off by a 32nd of an inch, or when you notice that the saw has drifted out of alignment after cutting 40 pieces, or when a billion tiny splinters demonstrates the blade is past due for sharpening.

But after a while one can anticipate most of that.

The best part of doing everything in house is that it all but eliminates the sometimes long delay when trying to turn around orders, and can provide substantial savings while most importantly, it helps to keep customers smiling.

In my case the choice is one of both convenience and practicality, but even still, I can wrap a 2x6 foot long image with 2.25” wide sticks of beautiful precision crafted dark hardwood for a little over a C note and about 15 minutes of labor. Doing it in-house and at scale would cut the cost by about half or more, increase the manufacturing time by a trivial amount, and eliminate a long week or more wait for frames to be delivered. That’s a fabulous improvement when the volume of work is needed.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on February 11, 2013, 01:32:26 pm
^ Cutting good frames is only about as hard as learning Lightroom.

And the tolerance is not 1/32", it's more like 1/128" variance between two opposite sides, which can be realistically achieved with a Home Depot grade DeWalt saw and a cheap cutting fence, provided the latter is equipped with a decent angled stop mechanism.  Anybody who relies on splitting pencil marks is deluding themselves, you must have a mechanical stop.  One learns to listen to the Song of the Blade and the Feel of the Cut, which speak volumes about how much longer a blade will behave itself.  And one soon learns that there are far better and somewhat cheaper blades than the ones labeled "for picture frame moulding."

But in the last 1000 or so frames that I have snookered together, there have been no rejects except for defects in the raw moulding that I failed to notice before I assembled the pieces*.  And with a few little tricks I have never had to force together a frame or use one of those ridiculous sander thingies to get perfect joints even in relatively twisted-sister moulding, of which there is plenty in the wild.

Total floor space taken up by my frame-building operation is 66 square feet.  In the past I got away with about half of that by opening the garage door and sticking part of the uncut moulding into the lowered tailgate of my pickup truck, using piled up moving blankets for support.  There is a certain kind of personality for whom such things are not daunting.  But snow, hail, sleet, and rain make that technique somewhat iffy in the winter.

*the best option being to beat up the rest of the frame to match the defect.  It's called "distressing" and at the end of a hard day it offers a certain relief.  framah probably charges extra for it.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on February 11, 2013, 02:45:35 pm
To manufacturer at scale it is always valuable to control the entire process in-house...

Not to sidetrack the discussion too much, but there is an alternative view on that, pioneered by Adam Smith, which says, paraphrased, that everyone is better off when everyone does what they do best and trade the rest. In other words, when photographers photograph and framers frame.

The question then becomes is your time better spent learning the tricks of another trade and then doing it, or making more images? Or perhaps engage in marketing them, if you are better at that than at framing. It is worth noting though that marketing and sales can just as well be outsourced.

P.S. "You" above is a rhetorical one, not aimed at Justan
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on February 11, 2013, 03:45:00 pm
^ But it allows me to kick-butt selling photographs, rather than sitting back and philosophizing about divisions of labor and the consequent socio-political fallout.

Having done it both ways, I find making framed pieces far easier and less time consuming than negotiating their ordering, delivery, and quality control.  For about the same abstracted amount of effort, with my do-it-myself frames I wind up with a product that gives me better per-piece profit for a lower selling price, which price attracts gaggles of customers heretofore unable to put a decent piece of art above their sofas.  That alone should be excuse enough for any violation of social responsibility incurred along the way.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 12, 2013, 12:32:04 pm
Selling art is a lot about appealing to impulse purchases. Building frames and thereby reducing cost to the consumer is a great way to encourage the impulse and thereby bring in customers.

It’s been decades since I read “The Wealth of Nations”, but don’t recall Adam Smith commenting on his art fair purchases in his writings. He may have. Did Mr. Smith address impulse buying? Did he ever purchase a work of art for his den? I dunno, but welcome insight on how to produce something that attracts more customers.

In earlier research, I found that frame making supply houses sell a variety of saws that are expressly designed for cutting frames in volume. I agree that a DeWalt compound miter saw, sharp blade, the right jigs, and some other tools can do a perfectly acceptable job, once one learns the many nuances. I made a few frames as tests and decided I’d need to do a higher volume to justify doing the work myself, plus, as mentioned above, I can get good frames for less than the cost of sticks.

The production of art is a lot about mastering manufacturing techniques that serve precision and efficiency. Selling art successfully demands that the artist at least equal the competition aesthetically, and it really helps if they can beat others on cost. After all, most of the people that shop at shows, also shop at Target. Consumers care a lot about cost. My experience at shows is that those who don’t ask a lot for their works, actually sell a lot of works.

That said, I’m off to load-in for another event. This will be the Seattle Home Show. Last year, the organizers said that about 90 thousand people bought tickets for the show. That is a darned fine turn out for a down economy, and frankly an intimidating number of people. I have not a prayer of building inventory for this, so for the first time will take orders for all but my print bin works. I could run out of those the first day. And also for the first time I’m offering coupons from a good frame maker. In addition, I’m offering my bigger works, with a no fame option. It should be a fun event!
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on February 14, 2013, 07:42:44 am
Be sure to let us know how it goes Justan. 
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 14, 2013, 08:42:48 am
Someone is asking me to write more? Heck yeah!

The top organizer of the event said he’d provide a place to store my trailer at the facility, but asked that I wait until today. That was very kind of him! Plus when I was at the facility Tuesday there were semi-tractors pulling all orders of stuff within inches of where my booth space is located, and that alone made me more than happy to defer. Otherwise nfw am I gonna find a place to park a nearly 9’ tall trailer + a SUV in downtown Seattle. I’m out the door in about 20 minutes for a long day of setting up.

Last time I setup the 10x20 exhibit it took about 6 hours. That was 3 weeks ago. This time one end of the exhibit is on an open corner so it’ll have more exhibit space then last time. Yesterday I picked up some carpet that’s required for the show.

The purveyor of frames is sending me nearly 70 lbs. worth of coupons, that they printed just for the event. They originally asked about sending their catalogues but I politely said there is no way I can or will deal with their catalogs in my exhibit space, so they made me some coupons. Awesome! These are supposed to arrive tomorrow. The show starts Saturday morning.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: framah on February 14, 2013, 10:43:12 am

*the best option being to beat up the rest of the frame to match the defect.  It's called "distressing" and at the end of a hard day it offers a certain relief.  framah probably charges extra for it.

You Betcha!!!

If you make a mistake, do it again 5 or 6 times and it becomes a design concept.   :o


I have a couple of artists who used to do their  own framing and soon realized that it was easier for me to do it for them, gave them more time to paint, and as it looked way more professionally framed then their job did, they could charge more for the piece then they were before. $2,000 pastel plus a $500 frame job sold for $3,000.
Only you can decide when your business becomes too big to do it all by yourself and when you need to devote your time to the more important parts and let the pros take care of  the rest.

It also helps to know the framer you use does quality work and consistent work. Drop it off and it is done, no worries. I keep 100ft of a certain moulding in stock just for one artist so when he drops a bomb on me of needing it right away, I can do it.

Not everyone needs an underpinner.. a good old corner vise still works wonders. Buy 4 of them and make multiple frames at once... just remember to predrill the nail hole so you don't split the wood.

One could also buy a wedging system. It is a router system that cuts a butterfly shaped cutout in the frame joint and then you glue a plastic wedge in and tap it tight. Too small time for my shop but for photographers wanting to DIY, it is about the right size.

A miter sander does help remove the "tolerance" of a miter cut. I use it on most chops I buy from suppliers. 4 or 5 turns and it is good to go.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on February 14, 2013, 04:23:14 pm
Hey Justan, we're in parallel universes!  My best gallery decided 6 days before the event to feature my wall-filling art at an Albuquerque home show this weekend.  With about 1/10 the attendance of yours.  I don't have to do anything except loan my Pro-panels and frame 40 pieces in 5 days.  And yes, spent this morning dodging fork-lift propelled hot tubs down at the hall. Booth is set up and we're hanging the art late Friday, then I go back to crankin out frames.  The booth is flanked by garden sheds and guys who can fix ANY roof leak, guaranteed!  I'll suggest they move to Seattle.  The concept of having a gallery involved is not uninteresting to one as old and decrepit as I.  The booth will be manned by the gallery sales folks who are quite frankly much better salespeople than yours truly, or at least a lot prettier.  Can hardly wait to see how the concept of selling art-as-hottubs turns out.  Perhaps this is the new face of art marketing in the 21st century.

Hope you find a parking place there on the streets of Seattle, and good luck!  And like Mike says, keep us posted.

*********************************

And those of you who use supplier-made "chops" need those sanders because most of the time the guy who makes the cut is an expert and gets them pretty right.  But when he's got Norovirus Sam up in sales who never actually assembled a frame in his entire life waddles down at the end of the day and does the work instead.  And there's a difference.  Don't ever get a framer started on the quality of chops he or she receives, your ears will be burning.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 15, 2013, 10:49:42 am
> My best gallery decided 6 days before the event to feature my wall-filling art at an Albuquerque home show this weekend.

A trick I learned from some fair gypsies is to never agree to book a show more than a few days before the show. Typically the people who sell space for a show will drop their prices, often drastically, as show time draws near. Sounds as if your gallery folks follows this wise mantra.

> I don't have to do anything except loan my Pro-panels and frame 40 pieces in 5 days.

Only 40 pieces? Like a leisurely breakfast (not). Do you have the pieces made?

>The booth is flanked by garden sheds and guys who can fix ANY roof leak, guaranteed!

Heck, roofing and Tuff Sheds amount to most of what the 500+ vendors here sell. The key difference is the colors!

> The booth will be manned by the gallery sales folks who are quite frankly much better salespeople than yours truly, or at least a lot prettier.

The only cute woman i get to help is my partner, and she often outsells me.

> Perhaps this is the new face of art marketing in the 21st century.

As long as it’s a pretty face. After all, what could hurt to get in front of lots of people expressly looking to make their home or office a nicer place?

> Hope you find a parking place there on the streets of Seattle, and good luck!  And like Mike says, keep us posted.

Back ‘atcha for good luck and keeping us posted!

I am already about the luckiest person at the show. To my amazement and delight, the organizers set up a space inside the building for my trailer. It’s “hidden” behind a curtain near the front of the building, and there is enough room for 2 other trailers the size of mine there. Krikey, I wish my booth had the location that my trailer does! Had I known I’d have at least washed the trailer!

One of my recent skillful feats occurred getting the trailer to this location. I drove down one of the main isles where I had not quite 2 inches of room on the sides, or would have crushed any of about 80 displays containing everything from ceramics to bonsai plants to fire places, to, of course, roofing exhibits. And then I had to round a corner, and then another. Whew! The bad news is that I definitely won't be among the first out, but at least I won’t need to move the trailer to load it!

The only bad part of the day is that my booth is located near a door so big it could have its own zip code and due to the gale force winds blowing through it, I can’t hang my works until they close the door this (Friday) evening.

> Don't ever get a framer started on the quality of chops he or she receives, your ears will be burning.

That detail was the inspiration for this forum http://thegrumble.com/forum.php

One of the dirty little secrets about framing art works is that most of the supplies suck for precise measurement. It is as if the manufacturers are incapable of measuring precisely and so they ship anything that’s close to what was ordered. That ineptitude flows down the supply chain.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Iluvmycam on February 25, 2013, 02:47:45 pm
If you do 'pretty work,' you can sell at art fairs and get ink money...if your lucky.

Sure famous people can make some $...Mary ellen Mark gets thousands per print, so does Sally Mann, Cindy Sherman gets millions.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 26, 2013, 11:25:33 am
Be sure to let us know how it goes Justan. 


Well….gosh, the implications of a wounded economy were everywhere. Many of my neighbors at the Home Show said that sales were way down. One said that sales were off by over 50%, compared to last year. Another, directly across from my display said she sold only a few hundred dollars worth of goods over the 9 day run. Ouch. Anecdotes up and down the aisles echoed similar comments. I saw countless people agonize about buying something from my print bins, with comments such as “…but the frame will cost….”

Yet I did pretty well. This was my biggest display at 10’ x 20’ with a corner location. First time I’ve had a corner location with this size display and the first time I’ve been able to show my coastal series. The display was a bear to set up and take down. It required about 8 hours each to unpack and to pack. I need to streamline this process somehow.

I have no idea how many people were in the booth over the last 9 days but my voice has dropped over an octave from talking, and I don’t think I had more than 5 minutes at a time away from the booth during the event. My partner “Justine” joined me during the evenings and weekends and we sold from the Pro Panel walls and from the print bins, and by custom order for bigger works. I haven’t started to count the custom orders. Lots of people who said they saw my display at one of my 5 previous events stopped by. My favorite visitor was a beautiful young woman who said my works gave her goose bumps.

Made acquaintances with a well-known artist painter and his wife. Their booth was a short distance away. They were very kind and offered me a lot of great advice from their nearly 40 years of exhibiting all over the country. The artist’s work has some of the nicest, most delicate color treatments I’ve seen. I will definitely work to emulate this when possible. We made many more acquaintances from other exhibitors at nearby booths. I sold works to over a dozen professional photographers, which I consider a darned high honor.

I was printing nearly every evening to replace stock that sold from the bins. I wish I had way more of my small framed canvas panos on hand, as the ones I had sold out the first day.

There were a lot of opportunities presented. A few of the more noteworthy ones includes a restaurant owner who said he owns several high end area restraints asked me to show on his walls and said he’d sell for me with 0 commission. Another restaurateur offered the same. One of the high-end house builders offered to show my works at his open houses. A company that owns and operates some tug boats loved my collection of the industrial water front, which just happens to feature a lot of their tugs. They are building a new building and asked me to contact them about decorating their walls. On separate occasions, two art fair judges who said they adjudicate for some of the bigger local events bought prints and said I should apply to shows for which they judge. I applied for one of them several weeks ago and the comments raised my hopes considerably. One person asked if I’d be interested in sending some of my 6’ unmounted canvas city-scapes to Japan (Hell yeah!). Many asked if I had any vertical panos, which I don’t but will soon. Some asked about architectural panos. Some asked if I’d be interested in lecturing and/or offering classes.

More people than I can count asked if I have a permanent gallery in town. I don’t but do have small exhibits at 3 galleries. I handed out over a thousand cards along with my products and services documents. Some sent in images for my custom printing service. This was my first big show in town and I could go on for hours about it, but in summary, it was a fabulous, if loooong event.

As noted earlier, my trailer got about the best parking spot possible, inside the facility. Toyota put their trailer next to mine. By today the over 500 exhibits will be torn down and I can bring the trailer home. Have not set a next exhibit but I will definitely be attending more of the bigger events in the future.

There was a roughly 30’ tall inflated mom and baby kangaroo that presided over the event, stationed by my trailer, and I asked the owner if I could pull the plug on it at the end of the event. She said “Sure.” It was so big it took about half an hour to deflate.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Isaac on February 26, 2013, 11:53:36 am
Congratulations!
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on February 26, 2013, 12:51:52 pm
Awright Justan!  You're a genuine Art Gypsy!  Order the t-shirt.  Goose-bumps, eh?  You old smoothy!  And take that frame cost comment to heart.  What you want to hear is, "you mean that price includes the frame, wow!"  Since framah will probably read this I won't tell to slip a print in an HL frame and put it above your bin as an example of cheap framing.  But honestly, I genuinely feel that print bins lead to reduced overall take, but that's another story.

Yeah artists are starting to discover those home shows, and where better to show your work than to people with big, empty walls and that new-house smell wafting about them.  If only the nightmares about setting up my booth at Home Depot would stop.

Those open houses are a good opportunity.  My best gallery actively pursues that.  The local Parade of Homes significantly increases gallery traffic, and accounts for perhaps 6 extra sales of wall-stuffer pieces per month when a Parade is actually in progress.

And restaurants can be ok, too.  I have done quite well with those, provided I display only kick-butt local interest work not requiring too much artistic sensibility.  But beware of display locations locations overly close to airborne kitchen grease.  You'll sell 3 times the number of pieces if the restaurant is willing to process the payment versus having the potential customer call you, but also beware of potential irritating payment problems with typically cash-flow-strapped businesses.  Although 0% commission sounds nice, in the long run a 1/4 to 1/3 commission paid on the spot will lead to a much happier and more survivable relationship.

Well my little 2 day show was not quite so stellar.  5,000 attendance, woohoo!  But nevertheless, 3 eight footers, 1 seven footer, 3 six footers, and 2 four footers were sold, which is not quite 1/5 the normal weekend art fair total but still satisfies my minimal show-qualifying criteria of 1 piece per 500 to 700 attendees.  However, 7 of those 9 sales were to other vendors buying showcase pieces for their office or home, rather than to the lack-luster attendees, very few of whom wore nice shoes.  The gallery also attributes several sales in the following week to the show, so maybe that's a small bandaid on the low numbers.

But hey, obviously there are still substantial markets for our kind of products that do not have art fairs and galleries on their demographic radar.  Let's reach out.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: telyt on February 26, 2013, 10:53:57 pm
Congrats Justan!

 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on February 27, 2013, 10:01:19 am
Thanks very much for the congrats!

The event organizers told me that prior to ’08 that the local home show had a large number of artists that participated. In this one there were 4.

Around this area there are only a few art shows, and then only in the spring/summer and one ultra high-end show around xmas. And then, most art shows are a double gouge for the seller. The show demands both a high booth fee plus a commission. The rest of the time arts are mostly incorporated along with the larger overall shows. A couple of gallery owners I work with have asked me about their doing home shows, wine and chocolate shows, and some crafts fairs. Evidently none are willing to commit to the expense.

The downside to doing a home show is that the artists are in the same display area as any number of other hawkers. F’instance, one neighbor sold a tool that separates garlic and ginger from the plants’ skin ($12 to $30 per sale); another sold hand warming devices ($3 to $18 per sale), another sold aloe vera lotion ($8 to $30 per sale), another promoted their acupuncture service, another sold pillows, and so on. The closest near-art product nearby was some nice higher end knives – and they said they had a bad show. Such is the nature of the economy at this time.

And yet, nowhere else can one get access to close to 100K people shopping for something (probably inexpensive) for their home.

On the other hand, I sold at least one work that started out as print bin item, but turned into a custom made 6’ long work. To be truly successful at this kind of hesitant and reluctant environment, I will need to learn a lot about closing sales.

Bill, you are extremely fortunate to be in a community that is highly supportive of the arts. Here, even though hundreds or more said “That cost includes the frame!?” for my bigger and even mid-sized works, I felt like I need more chutzpah or other sales skills to really increase the sales numbers.

I was lamenting this with another husband and wife artist team. The sellers of heating pads and aloe can show the consumer how nice the stuff feels on the hands, or how it warms and relaxes the shoulders and thereby play to the impulse purchase. With art one cannot really try something on for size or feel, but instead the product must grab an emotion or fulfill enough of a perceived need for them to contribute C notes. Thousands said they loved (or fill in the positive comment about the work) but only a tiny fraction of those converted.

Next year I plan to do at least 3 of these shows, and between now and then will read several books on 1:1 sales techniques and acquire some good panos of local interest for the other locations.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on February 28, 2013, 02:18:52 pm
The artists dropped out mostly because at least locally the booth rate at home shows is a little more than twice that of art fairs, for 1/8 the attendance.  $950 for a 10x10 corner booth.  A roofer will probably find leads, but not necessarily an artist.  And the two home shows here have a requirement that both side panels can only be 3 feet high, which makes displaying flat art a difficult thing.  Had quite a fuss about that at setup time, we won.  It's important not to assume that home-show rules = art-fair rules.

And uhuh, the guys on the other side of the drapes were doing Chinese Pulse Analysis, and the "it slices / it dices" guys were everywhere with their tilted mirrors.  The vendors that weren't of the Home Depot persuasion were of the County Fair persuasion.  Our neighbor across the aisle had an entire, extra-large tree shredder set up for display, with its safety-orange paint polished shiny-bright, and tires stained RGB zero black.  Strangely fun, in a surreal sort of way.

We're going to try one more in April, which is said to be a better show.  If sales are mostly to vendors again, that'll be it for home shows.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on February 28, 2013, 03:40:07 pm
On Sky TV's Finance show tonight, they posted an item on UK High Street shop closures They were up over 900%, yes, 900% in 2012. The greates number of deaths? Card and poster shops. What's the point anymore unless you own your own property in a hot tourist town?

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: David Watson on February 28, 2013, 05:22:38 pm
On Sky TV's Finance show tonight, they posted an item on UK High Street shop closures They were up over 900%, yes, 900% in 2012. The greates number of deaths? Card and poster shops. What's the point anymore unless you own your own property in a hot tourist town?

Rob C

Rob

Even that does not work too well.  We have an hotel and restaurant in a smart tourist village 2.5 hours from London.  We opened a gallery in a redundant building.  Plenty of visits, plenty of compliments but hot many sales.  The reasons?  Lack of money; lack of space;

Even in a good charitable cause sales are limited as we found out with a show in support of the National Trust.

Unless you have "name" and the possibility  of potentially increased value selling prints for more than peanuts in the UK is very very difficult.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on March 01, 2013, 01:41:05 am
The artists dropped out mostly because at least locally the booth rate at home shows is a little more than twice that of art fairs, for 1/8 the attendance.  $950 for a 10x10 corner booth.

Very different market here. HS rates are about on par with our biggest art fair – the Bellevue show, plus the Bellevue show charges a commission. Of course, they both claim nearly 100 thousand visitors, which deserves a premium rental. I’m not convinced the art show deserves a premium rental plus a $% on sales.

Quote
And the two home shows here have a requirement that both side panels can only be 3 feet high, which makes displaying flat art a difficult thing.  Had quite a fuss about that at setup time, we won.  It's important not to assume that home-show rules = art-fair rules.

Agreed that is not a wise assumption. I ran into that quibble starting at my first show and since then have gone to pointing out to the organizers in great detail from the outset, including asking them to look at the Pro Panel web site that due to these panels, my booth can’t meet the height restriction on the front part of the booth. By spelling out the details, I’ve gotten mostly good locations (including the need for great parking for my trailer at every show so i can get inventory). Another plus is that by putting a big bright lighted pano on the neighbor’s side – with their grateful permission, of course - my booth can be seen from the other end of the festival.

Quote
Our neighbor across the aisle had an entire, extra-large tree shredder set up for display, with its safety-orange paint polished shiny-bright, and tires stained RGB zero black.  Strangely fun, in a surreal sort of way.

I didn’t see a chipper at the show but did see the tree trimmer saw with 30’ long extension pole was on the next aisle. (I remember several years back when they sold those long poles with little electric chain saws on the end and a remote switch. Man oh man did that ever have Bad Idea written all over.)

I know what you mean about the fun. It is a simple if odd life at one of these shows, and I’ve gone through some withdrawals the last couple of days that surprised me.

Quote
We're going to try one more in April, which is said to be a better show.  If sales are mostly to vendors again, that'll be it for home shows.

Here the Feb. HS is the big one. In spring other shows bring the major crowds.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on March 01, 2013, 01:29:09 pm
In regards to the  "cards" question that disappeared while I was writing this post, I don't do cards for lots of reasons.

They distract attention away from the far more lucrative framed pieces.

They take away display space from the far more lucrative framed pieces.

At the very important attendance peak in the early afternoon they can fill your booth with people who like to rummage through ditzy little stuff, and effectively block people interested in framed pieces.

If you're selling them, that takes valuable time away from schmoozing potential big buyers.

They can kill sales.  "Oh, I just love that piece, how much is it?  Oh, here it is as a card..."  Lots of times well meaning friends will point out a card to save their buddies from spending real money.

And at some level they make your booth look somewhat déclassé.

One of the most dangerous things you can have in booth is a promotional card with a URL visible on it.  "Oh, I just love your work, but is this all you have?  Oh, I see on this card that you have a web site!  I'm going to go home and look at all your work!"  Goodbye forever.  Once again, so-called friends often point out the URL as a defusing tactic.  Promotional cards should only be given to good leads who are walking away empty handed.  But keep those URL cards out of sight.  Business cards are somewhat safer to leave in view, but for various reasons only 3 or 4 should ever be available to simply pick up.

But if you do want to leave a big pile of cards up for grabs on your table, you can easily restock by digging them out of the trash cans at the exits.

The promotional cards I use are mostly leftovers from gallery show announcements.  That refers customers to commission galleries instead of directly to me, but it gives people a place they can go right away and once again be exposed to pieces they can buy on the spot.  That's a lot more likely to create a sale than somebody staring at a web site.  And it puts a salve on the wounds of gallery owners who feel competed-with when their artists attend nearby art fairs.

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on March 02, 2013, 12:21:53 pm
The business card thing at an art booth is an interesting one.

On the one hand, advertising is a key to success and traditionally handing out a business card and promotions is the most direct way to do this.

On the other hand, I’ve heard a number of long time artist say that cards should only go to paying customers.

At my last event I offered both cards and promotions. I handed out > than 1000 of each. If nothing comes of it, I’ll probably reduce the practice to those who buy or those i talk with for a while at shows.

WRT selling gift or holiday cards, that looks to be a very difficult way to make a living. It would probably require stocking and restocking display bins at a lot of locations, which brings with it a pretty high overhead. In general trying to make it worthwhile to sell something at $1 to $7 profit per package requires a lot of work and production for not a lot of return. But clearly there are those who do it well.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: MartinSpence on March 02, 2013, 05:11:52 pm
Hi folks

I'm wondering what you think of this as a marketing tool in the hope it may lead to sales of other prints....

I had seen someone else do this and thought I'd give it a go?

Basically I allow people to download an image as a wallpaper for their PC/iPad as on this link:

http://www.martinspencephotography.co.uk/blog/yes/white-park-bay-photo-download-pcipad

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on March 02, 2013, 06:47:51 pm
First of all, your work is gorgeous and among the best I have seen in that genre.  Congratulations.

I think it's a bad idea.

Most of all, I don't think people make connections between what's on their monitors and what they might want of the wall.

Some years ago I gave somebody in local government several 1000 x 3000 dpi image files on the stipulation that they would be used one time only for a printed brochure, and then destroyed.  A year or later I found cards with those images on them for sale at a gift shop.  Somebody at city hall decided they should just go ahead and put my images up on line, full size.  It took quite a while to clean up the mess.  The person making the cards claimed that since they were online they were public domain, and all the more so because the "government" had put them there.

I have a more or less abandoned website with some images on it.  I get a couple calls a month from people who will gladly pay $19.95 for a large print, just like down at the hobby store.

And lastly, try running one of those 1920 dpi files through Resize 7.5 or PhotoZoom5.  It's scary.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: BrianWJH on March 02, 2013, 10:58:45 pm
I agree with Bill, after a while the wallpaper image looses it's initial impact even if it's spectacular it just takes a bit longer by then a print sale is less likely.

Cheers,
Brian.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Iluvmycam on March 03, 2013, 09:47:29 pm
Martin, nice work. Start selling on ebay. I see people selling smaller size prints for $25 to $50 a pop.

Go to the big name photogs sites and see what they get. Mary Ellen Mark $3000 a print, Les Krims $600 to $2500 and such. If your a 'no name' like me, then serious collectors may not even want it for free. They collect names not photography.

You guys should start selling prints right here if it is allowed. I'd buy some prints if they were cheap. $25 - $35 a pop. I buy prints on ebay once in a while, just for fun and to help other photogs in a very small way. Print them with archival pigment, no need for wet prints unless you want to do wet prints to sell. The rule for me is: if the ink jet = the wet print in IQ then it is fine. And if it does not, then it must be a wet print.

On the Large Format forum they do print exchanges. But I don't have large format prints nor did I have their subject matter of rocks that was this years topic. 18 guys exchanged prints. They got them very cheap, some nice stuff too.

I don't have too many pretty subjects. Mine are more for collectors that like odd subjects. But I never promoted my name, so I have no notoriety and collectors don't want a 'no name' photog.  I am trying to make a short run book right now. (200 to 400 copies, not a Blurb book.) One publisher possibly interested, but will most likely have to self publish. 3 printers rejected me since they don't approve of the subject matter.

I just started in Dec with promoting myself.  It is almost like a full time job. I am in 2-1/2 museums and possibly 2 or 3  more once the Boards vote. Or they can reject me just as easily. Wife and daughter-in-law will trash all my photography when I die. (They both hate it.) So I figured it is now or never to try and archive some of it, or it will all end up in the nearest dumpster when I kick off.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: KevinA on March 06, 2013, 01:50:37 pm

I looked into doing that and almost bought an underpinner to add to my wood working tools, but found that some framing shops can produce outstanding results and ship them to me for less than I pay for sticks locally. Plus it is 1 thing less to worry about and spend time on. If there is a problem, they ship the fix in a couple of days. The combination of quality and ease, and frankly, lower cost than doing it myself, is what lead me to using pictureframes.com and economyframes.com. I only buy frames and sometimes do the final assembly for these, but still do the other parts in-house.

At my next show, I’m partnering with a framing company who offered me a bunch of coupons to hand out at the show. They don't sell art and i'd rather not sell frames unless i have to. This combination means I can promote my works and people can get frames made to their impulse. It is a win-win, at least in theory.

Some years ago I did the lot, cut matts, cut frames underpinned etc. It taught me one thing, doing it all is not cost effective. It just isn't. I bet most people here do it themselves to keep the price lower, I doubt many work out what it costs to get it done professionally and charge themselves at that rate, be honest you don't.
If you don't you are working for cheap. Making frames and mounting takes time to do well.
So say you do charge full whack for doing it yourself, would it not make more sense to be working at something else, like marketing your work?
Whatever I do these days I price it at what it costs to get the work done professionally, if there is something I have the time and expertise to do and I do it, then I make extra profit. I would hate to extra work just to be cheaper.
It took sometime for me to realise this, because when you work it out with the money you have available it looks to make more sense in doing it yourself.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: bill t. on March 06, 2013, 05:34:42 pm
I cut and joined the following frames last nite, between 7 and 10:30, using very modest equipment:

1, 36 x 96
1, 35 x 84
2, 29 x 64
2, 27 x 50
4, 20 x 49

Hard to work up really good numbers, but I figure I was earning around $300+/hr doing that in savings over commercially available frames, even at wholesale.  Good work if you can get it, IMHO.

The trick is, the rules for just plain old sticking a canvas in a bare frame without any of the BS involved with mattes, glass, backing, etc is a whole different world o' framing, and a heck of lot easier.  It's those prissy little matted frames with glass that kill you, meh!  Canvas was partly a design-for-manufacturing decision for me.  And I have to say, I have never once had to settle for a goofy looking corner.

It's three in afternoon, and I just now finished stuffing my pre-mounted canvases in those frames.  Not bad at all, I'm very pleased with myself today.  I'm going to an art fair this weekend and I can guarantee I will kick the butts of everybody there who relies on third party framing.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on March 06, 2013, 10:27:42 pm
Bill, do you use an underpinner for joining the frames?  What's your 'modest equipment', if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: dgberg on March 08, 2013, 11:48:24 am
Mike,
Here are several options to go along with your framing and other offerings.. (Apologies in advance if I have shown this in the past.)
Multiply with clear coated edges and back and aluminum hanger. (Other half not shown.)
Canvas mounted to multiply with Seals print mount ultra.
You can mount canvas or paper on hardboard as well.
I have a big edge sander to polish the edges which makes them look real nice.
You can clear coat the edges and back or leave them unfinished.
Spraying them black is another option that looks good.
The third picture is printed metal attached to multiply with the same Print Mount Ultra through the laminator.
Yes it takes time to be fooling around with edges and backs but they look so good finished properly.


Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: kevk on March 09, 2013, 01:29:12 am

The trick is, the rules for just plain old sticking a canvas in a bare frame without any of the BS involved with mattes, glass, backing, etc is a whole different world o' framing, and a heck of lot easier.  It's those prissy little matted frames with glass that kill you, meh!  ...

... I just now finished stuffing my pre-mounted canvases in those frames.  ...I can guarantee I will kick the butts of everybody there who relies on third party framing.

I like the tune you are whistling here Bill - how do you pre-mount? Do you glue or vacuum press the canvas to board or something? Do you spray the canvas with one of those varnishes before/after mounting?

Cheers!
Kevin
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Graham Clark on March 09, 2013, 04:58:07 am
The business card thing at an art booth is an interesting one.

On the one hand, advertising is a key to success and traditionally handing out a business card and promotions is the most direct way to do this.

On the other hand, I’ve heard a number of long time artist say that cards should only go to paying customers.

At my last event I offered both cards and promotions. I handed out > than 1000 of each. If nothing comes of it, I’ll probably reduce the practice to those who buy or those i talk with for a while at shows.

WRT selling gift or holiday cards, that looks to be a very difficult way to make a living. It would probably require stocking and restocking display bins at a lot of locations, which brings with it a pretty high overhead. In general trying to make it worthwhile to sell something at $1 to $7 profit per package requires a lot of work and production for not a lot of return. But clearly there are those who do it well.


I agree, however with social media tools if more cards get into more hands, and if more links are visited there's a chance it can be re-spun and go viral!

Graham
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on March 09, 2013, 09:20:20 am
Quote
I like the tune you are whistling here Bill - how do you pre-mount? Do you glue or vacuum press the canvas to board or something? Do you spray the canvas with one of those varnishes before/after mounting?

Not to speak for Bill, but I learned the technique from him: The face of the canvas is coated with Glamour II and left to fully cure. The coating can be done by spray or roller.

After that use Gator Board or Mighty Core as a substrate and a thin coat of a glue known as Miracle Muck by Raphael’s ( http://raphaelsap.com/miraclemuckandaccessories.aspx ) on the Gator or Mighty, then carefully apply the canvas onto coated media. You can roll the canvas onto the glued media, or lay the canvas flat, back side up, and carefully lay the media over the canvas and press to make sure it is flat and so there are no trapped air bubbles, and then turn the laminated work face up to dry. Be sure to immediately clean any glue from the face of the canvas!

The Muck drying process can be kind of scary to watch. The corners of the gator will probably lift into a lazy U shape and then relax down to being perfectly flat. Do NOT use FOAMCORE as it will curl and stay that way.

After the Muck fully dries, trim the work and wrap a frame around it and you’re good to put it on the wall.

Quote
I agree, however with social media tools if more cards get into more hands, and if more links are visited there's a chance it can be re-spun and go viral!

The operative term there is “if” and yet it’s definately worth a try. Were it me, I’d start gearing up now by way of contacting local vendors in preparation for the Thanksgiving to New Year buying crowd. Add to that your suggestion of a lot of social media. The more opportunity the better!

My only advise is that when one does everything right, one will get what one sets out to get. So if the goal is to collect lots of $5 dollar bills, that shall be the reward.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on March 09, 2013, 09:33:27 am
What do you do to produce the image's deckled edge treatment shown in _DSC0011.jpg?
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: dgberg on March 09, 2013, 01:15:13 pm
For the metal print I used OnOnes Photo Frame 4.6 now discontinued.
Borders are now in Perfect Effects 4 part of the Perfect Photo suite 7.
When printing on metal a square or rectangular  looking printed edge can look funky.
(You cannot trim the uneven borders of metal prints after printing like you can with paper.)
A great way to take your eye away from those square printed edges or uneven borders.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Gulag on March 09, 2013, 11:50:38 pm
I was wondering whether or not anyone has done any large C-Print. If not, your reasons against it? Thanks.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: kevk on March 10, 2013, 06:18:17 am
Thanks for the details Justan, I'll see if I can get similar materials here in sunny Australia and give it a go.

Kevin
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: dgberg on March 11, 2013, 11:27:04 am
I was wondering whether or not anyone has done any large C-Print. If not, your reasons against it? Thanks.

Inkjet is so easy and affordable too.
Not color but if you want to see big, look at Clyde Butcher's black and white prints.
 Google "Clyde Butcher Technical Information" he has a whole page dedicated to the process.
The equipment and required space is huge.

Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 11, 2013, 11:33:51 am
C-prints are less durable, for one. Not sure about color gamut, but probably not as wide as inkjet.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Justan on March 11, 2013, 12:35:19 pm
For the metal print I used OnOnes Photo Frame 4.6 now discontinued.
Borders are now in Perfect Effects 4 part of the Perfect Photo suite 7.
When printing on metal a square or rectangular  looking printed edge can look funky.
(You cannot trim the uneven borders of metal prints after printing like you can with paper.)
A great way to take your eye away from those square printed edges or uneven borders.


> Borders are now in Perfect Effects 4 part of the Perfect Photo suite 7.

Thanks! I’ll have to play with Perfect Effects. I stopped by their web site and that is as far as time permitted.

I also looked at doing similar in PS and found some links which shared common themes.

http://www.wetzelandcompany.com/Photoshop_Tutorials/TornDeckleEdge.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AJ3qJOL1w
http://www.earlkdesign.com/2012/06/make-your-own-custom-deckle-edge.html

Somewhere I saw a variant that not only has a deckled edge, but also the area of the deckle transitions appearance into more or less random colored brush marks against white.

> When printing on metal a square or rectangular looking printed edge can look funky.
(You cannot trim the uneven borders of metal prints after printing like you can with paper.)

I bet any kind of trimming on metal would be a lot of work.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Gulag on March 11, 2013, 03:16:10 pm
C-prints are less durable, for one. Not sure about color gamut, but probably not as wide as inkjet.

Thank you. I've seen many huge C-prints in my recent visits to some local galleries.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 11, 2013, 04:18:14 pm
Thank you. I've seen many huge C-prints in my recent visits to some local galleries.

I am speculating here, but I think the main attraction for galleries is that they can advertise it as "real" photographs, on photo paper, classical, traditional, rather than digital "trickery," for better or worse. You know, these days everyone has an inkjet at home, so artists (or "artists") have been trying to run away from such a "lowly contraption" in two directions: one would be using a fancy, artsy-fartsy name for it ("giclee" - French, thus must be artsy), the other using C-prints. Again, just speculating.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Gulag on March 11, 2013, 05:02:44 pm
I am speculating here, but I think the main attraction for galleries is that they can advertise it as "real" photographs, on photo paper, classical, traditional, rather than digital "trickery," for better or worse. You know, these days everyone has an inkjet at home, so artists (or "artists") have been trying to run away from such a "lowly contraption" in two directions: one would be using a fancy, artsy-fartsy name for it ("giclee" - French, thus must be artsy), the other using C-prints. Again, just speculating.

That I don't know since there wasn't any particular sales pitch at any of those galleries. But those c-prints are huge in size.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Iluvmycam on March 11, 2013, 06:30:37 pm
That I don't know since there wasn't any particular sales pitch at any of those galleries. But those c-prints are huge in size.

I was refused by galleries because my prints are inkjet. Have not had any issues to speak of from museums with ink jet. But I donate and don't sell.

Good ink jet print will outlast the best type C...aka Fuji Crystal Archival. But Fuji still has an outstanding C paper that is maybe 90% as dye fast as the lower end pigment ink jet. Best of any of the wet papers I've tested for dye stability. But it still is no ink jet...at least when it comes to light stability. Have not tested them for long tern dark storage.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Kirk Gittings on March 11, 2013, 07:27:56 pm
I have had no problems selling inkjets to museums.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: nairb on March 15, 2013, 02:19:41 pm
Speaking of selling prints, can anyone recommend a preferred way of taking payments from overseas customers? I assume people are using Paypal, but I have little to no experience with it and am leery of using it until I'm comfortable with the process. Unless there's another preferred method? I just looked into direct bank transfers but the fees are roughly $50 ($35 on their end, $15 on mine). I understand paypal fees are about 3% which would work out to $13.50 on a $450 print.

Thanks
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: louoates on March 15, 2013, 05:20:57 pm
I thought it was just my vision failing when seeing so many poor to very poor "C" prints in museum shows.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on March 16, 2013, 02:26:52 pm
Speaking of selling prints, can anyone recommend a preferred way of taking payments from overseas customers? I assume people are using Paypal, but I have little to no experience with it and am leery of using it until I'm comfortable with the process. Unless there's another preferred method? I just looked into direct bank transfers but the fees are roughly $50 ($35 on their end, $15 on mine). I understand paypal fees are about 3% which would work out to $13.50 on a $450 print.

Thanks

I would say paypal is probably the most accepted, so you can't go wrong from a comfort point of view.  When I did this though I felt that Paypal cheated me because upon asking me to accept the payment, it had the currency equivalent in my currency listed.  Then when I got it in my account, there was yet another fee for currency conversion.  I couldn't get an answer from them as to why this currency conversion fee doesn't appear when I am given the choice to accept and the value in my currency is clearly shown (which isn't the amount that I ultimately ended up getting).  So just be aware that in addition to the Paypal fee, you will also get slapped with a currency exchange fee that you won't know about until it goes into your account.  If you never accept online payment, then Paypal is the way to go, but certainly if my business revolved around doing this regularly, I would look at other options.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 16, 2013, 10:07:34 pm
Credit card companies do the same: they use the most unfavorable (for you) exchange rates to convert your foreign purchases, AND they slap you with a currency conversion fee on top of that. Then again, there are CC companies that do not charge conversion fees at all. So, PayPal is not unique in what they are doing.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Rob C on March 17, 2013, 09:36:17 am
Credit card companies do the same: they use the most unfavorable (for you) exchange rates to convert your foreign purchases, AND they slap you with a currency conversion fee on top of that. Then again, there are CC companies that do not charge conversion fees at all. So, PayPal is not unique in what they are doing.


Absolutely; that's why it suits me best to retain a credit card in pounds and another in euros. One uses them depending on where the thing's going to be used and invoiced.

Trouble is, you have to be able to pay them back in whichever place... bummer.

Rob C
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on March 17, 2013, 10:12:39 am
Credit card companies do the same: they use the most unfavorable (for you) exchange rates to convert your foreign purchases, AND they slap you with a currency conversion fee on top of that.

Oh absolutely, but in this case, Paypal is even more deceiving.  They would say...from a transaction from England, "Do you accept the payment of X pounds (Y dollars)?"  So they clearly show you what the conversion is and state you will receive Y dollars.  But then when you look in your account, the amout you received is less than the Y quoted.  When I called to ask why, they told me about the conversion fee.  Of course I tried to expalin why they didn't tell me about this conversion fee when I was asked to accept and was quoted the exact amout of money I should have been receiving but didn't... and got no reply.  I think for a company as big as Paypal it would be quite an easy software fix to show you how much money you will actually receive.. but alas.. that would be too honest.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 17, 2013, 10:54:56 am
Well, the same goes for their regular fees. While I know there is a transaction fee, you never see it next to the transaction amount until the final statement. The same with third-party ATMs: they'll warn you about the fee they are going to charge, but not about the fee your bank is going to add on top of that. Even your own bank's ATM will slap you with a fee when you withdraw money from your credit card, but you won't know about it until you get the statement (when it is already too late to reconsider the transaction).

In other words, nothing particularly exceptional or sinister about PayPal practices. In all of the above cases, it is all disclosed somewhere, usually in small print, but not during the transaction. Not that I condone it, but I file it under "life's little annoyances." Teams of marketeers, psychologists, economists, behaviorists, spent decades perfecting methods meant to induce you to spend more by hiding the true cost of it, by making it look smaller than it is. My pet peeve: after ten years in the States, I am still royally annoyed that my restaurant bills come up 25-30% higher than the sum of menu prices (tips and tax).
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on March 17, 2013, 10:41:50 pm
If you're worried about the cost of CC charges, then you're probably not charging enough for your product in the first place. ;)
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Landscapes on March 18, 2013, 06:23:25 pm
If you're worried about the cost of CC charges, then you're probably not charging enough for your product in the first place. ;)

Its one way to look at it.. but suppose you have $10,000 a month in sales and you're losing 3% on each transaction.. that amounts to $300 every month.  I don't know about you.. but I would hate to be throwing out $300 every month.  You can call it the cost of doing business, but if there is a better way... I say go for it!  I mean does it matter if you order your ink from Adorama, B&H or Atlex?  Its the same ink from the same manufacturer.  Likewise, a transaction run through Paypal, or Visa, or MC or some other form is all the same, unless of course the customer doesn't like your options for forms of payment.  I would rather take cash and save the 3% any day! 

I guess my point is, the more sales you have, the more each 1% matters.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 18, 2013, 07:41:27 pm
... but if there is a better way...

The real question is "is there a better way?" Someone, somewhere will want to charge those 3% (or whatever) anyway. If you accept a payment over a credit card, the CC company will charge you a processing fee. Apparently, American Express is the priciest (5% - that's why many establishments do not accept it - or so I heard).   

Quote
... I guess my point is, the more sales you have, the more each 1% matters.

Hehe... the alternative point would be: 1% is 1% ;)
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Richowens on March 18, 2013, 11:15:07 pm
According to my calculation, 97% of 10,000 beats the hell out of 100% of nothing. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on March 19, 2013, 07:42:09 am
That's exactly correct Rich.  I got myself one of the 'Square' card readers just so I could accept CC's when I'm on location.  I've definitely made extra sales by being able to accept CC's that way. It's a flat 2.75% (the reader is free).  So few people carry cash or cheques anymore (I don't accept cheques in most cases - too many returns that cost way more than 3%).
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: markd61 on March 28, 2013, 03:25:30 am
I understand about watching costs but the cost of credit card transactions are vanishingly small compared to the sales opportunities they afford your business. Obsessing about 1 or 2% is idiotic. It IS a cost of doing business and as such you build it into your selling price. So you sell a print for $100. Want to make sure you don't get "screwed" by the card fees? Sell the print for $105 and make even more money!

If your business model breaks over 2% then it isn't worth much.
Title: Re: Profit from Prints
Post by: leeonmaui on March 31, 2013, 07:41:59 pm
Aloha,

I think you can make a very good living and beyond from the sales of your prints, lets call your prints art, and the selling of your art business.

The art business like any business takes an incredible amount of work to be successful at, whatever work/time you put into making your art; times that by 10 and add infinity to make the business side successful. In this regard, it's no different from any other business.

Working smart and working with a plan will not necessarily ensure success, working stupid and working without a plan will most likely ensure failure.

I have been earning a very good living for the past two years selling my prints, my business continues to grow and evolve, I have been very lucky to some degree, as I have a great location and solid cash flow, which has allowed me to develop, refine and expand my business model.

I don't necessarily think you can quantify initial success or failure; or always monetize your results every, business has tangibles and intangibles.
 
Making money from your artwork is not easy, it can be done with varying levels of success depending on a multitude of factors.
I think the biggest factor confronting your success is your desire, and your desire must be truthful and fearless.