Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: RFPhotography on January 15, 2013, 04:06:09 pm

Title: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: RFPhotography on January 15, 2013, 04:06:09 pm: The GH3 has been officially released and yet there are still no reviews on the main, 'credible' review sites like DPReview, Imaging Resource or DxO. Normally manufacturers supply cameras to these sites for testing, don't they? If that's true, wonder why Panasonic isn't making the GH3 available. There are a few clips on Vimeo with the production version and elsewhere but nothing comprehensive that I've seen.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: henk on January 15, 2013, 05:12:59 pm: I did some research in Europe and found these 2 respected German Magazines with information on Pana GH3 and Oly OMD

http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/kamerabestenliste/index.php?kamerakategorie=4288

http://www.colorfoto.de/testbericht/test-panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh3-1462460.html

http://www.colorfoto.de/produkte/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh3-1457097.html

http://www.colorfoto.de/testbericht/olympus-om-d-e-m5-1274187.html

http://www.colorfoto.de/bestenliste/?catId=50102#pagination_anchor

It looks that both conclude that the Oly OMD has better image quality! But lets wait and see what Dpreview has to say
Henk
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 15, 2013, 05:46:51 pm: This site provides links to lots of GH3 reviews...

http://www.43rumors.com/?s=gh3+review
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Vladimirovich on January 15, 2013, 07:43:56 pm: Quote from: BobFisher on January 15, 2013, 04:06:09 pm
The GH3 has been officially released and yet there are still no reviews on the main, 'credible' review sites like DPReview
why do you consider DPReview a credible review site ?
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: larkis on January 15, 2013, 10:06:36 pm: I'm not a "credible" reviewer but I do have the GH3 and just spent shooting with it extensively in cuba. If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will try to help any way I can. I will be posting some more observations as well as images shot with it to my blog in the coming days. Here are a few today:

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_01.jpg)

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_02.jpg)

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_03.jpg)

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_04.jpg)

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_05.jpg)

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_06.jpg)

(http://dominik.ca/forumposts/photos/cuba/cuba_07.jpg)
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: K.C. on January 16, 2013, 01:15:55 am: Quote from: Vladimirovich on January 15, 2013, 07:43:56 pm
why do you consider DPReview a credible review site ?

+1

That's one of the last sites I'd look to for a review that's not biased.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 16, 2013, 07:21:14 am: Quote from: larkis on January 15, 2013, 10:06:36 pm
If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will try to help any way I can.
I have a couple of questions and I'd be very grateful if you could answer them, if you have time.

I used to take a lot of low light pictures but I find using my G1 in low light very uncomfortable because of the light output from the EVF, basically it's like shooting with a torch shining directly into my eye. If I put my hand behind the EVF I can see the square of light being emitted, turning the EVF settings down makes no difference. Is the GH3 the same? Also, how does the GH3's EVF generally perform in low light?

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn313/alans70/Forum/IMG_9908.jpg)

Sorry about the quality of that image, I was holding my 5D with one hand ;D

And my second and last question... Is there definitely no ISO 100? I like to shoot with wide apertures even in good light and I don't really like using ND's and if there is no ISO 100 that may rule the camera out for me as I'd be using ND's a lot more.

If you can answer these questons, thanks ;D
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: RFPhotography on January 16, 2013, 08:19:39 am: Quote from: Vladimirovich on January 15, 2013, 07:43:56 pm
why do you consider DPReview a credible review site ?

Notice that I put credible inside quotes. I wasn't saying whether I, personally, consider any of them to be credible or not.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on January 16, 2013, 09:36:25 am: Quote from: scooby70 on January 16, 2013, 07:21:14 am
...Is there definitely no ISO 100? ...

There is an "Extended" ISO setting which gives ISO 125
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 16, 2013, 09:38:22 am: Quote from: Chris Sanderson on January 16, 2013, 09:36:25 am
There is an "Extended" ISO setting which gives ISO 125

Thanks. At a pinch that'd do ;D
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 16, 2013, 09:44:45 am: Quote from: Vladimirovich on January 15, 2013, 07:43:56 pm
why do you consider DPReview a credible review site ?

And why you don't?
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 16, 2013, 09:48:24 am: Quote from: larkis on January 15, 2013, 10:06:36 pm
... I will be posting some more observations as well as images shot with it to my blog in the coming days. Here are a few today:

Great! Looks like it can even take pictures. ;)
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: larkis on January 16, 2013, 10:07:33 am: Quote from: scooby70 on January 16, 2013, 07:21:14 am
I have a couple of questions and I'd be very grateful if you could answer them, if you have time.

I used to take a lot of low light pictures but I find using my G1 in low light very uncomfortable because of the light output from the EVF, basically it's like shooting with a torch shining directly into my eye. If I put my hand behind the EVF I can see the square of light being emitted, turning the EVF settings down makes no difference. Is the GH3 the same? Also, how does the GH3's EVF generally perform in low light?

I will check this later in the evening. I did shoot at night a little and have not noticed anything unusual about the EVF. It's definitely lower noise compared to what the GH2 did and the light output did not bother me at all. The refresh rate due to the OLED is nicer as well.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 16, 2013, 10:09:16 am: Thanks.

I did wonder if OLED would be different to the earlier technology. The chances of me finding a camera to try before I buy are pretty remote, I buy mostly on line, so any help will be... a help ;D
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Vladimirovich on January 16, 2013, 12:13:42 pm: Quote from: K.C. on January 16, 2013, 01:15:55 am
+1

That's one of the last sites I'd look to for a review that's not biased.

I am not talking about bias - I do not like how they do raw files shooting/evaluation at all.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: larkis on January 16, 2013, 11:32:17 pm: Quote from: scooby70 on January 16, 2013, 10:09:16 am
Thanks.

I did wonder if OLED would be different to the earlier technology. The chances of me finding a camera to try before I buy are pretty remote, I buy mostly on line, so any help will be... a help ;D

I have checked the EVF on the gh3 and have not noticed anything to be overly bright. I have pointed it as a bright computer monitor in a darkened room and the brightness (to my eye) is about constant when I look at the monitor directly or through the camera. I definitely can't make it cast such a strong light onto my hand as what you have in your picture.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 17, 2013, 07:17:06 am: Thank you for taking the time to do that, it's a big help and has put my mind at reast regarding the OLED tech.

In the example shot I posted the camera was just on the bed and wasn't pointed at any light source at all so I can only assume the high light output is a result of a backlight or something.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: grzybu on January 17, 2013, 08:48:52 am: Every EVF emits light, no matter if it's OLED or LCD. So it's normal that you may be find it uncomfortable when it's really dark.
But when it's really dark you may not see anything in optical viewfinder.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 17, 2013, 09:42:14 am: Quote from: grzybu on January 17, 2013, 08:48:52 am
Every EVF emits light, no matter if it's OLED or LCD. So it's normal that you may be find it uncomfortable when it's really dark.
But when it's really dark you may not see anything in optical viewfinder.

But that example shot wasn't taken when it's really dark. As can be seen it was taken in a normally lit bedroom and the light output from the camera is very high. I suppose when the ambient natural light is higher the light from the camera is swamped and the eyes pupil is smaller too and the cameras light output isn't noticeable? Maybe. Whatever.

In this normal household lighting level my 5D is very easy to use and I can quite comfortably read a newspaper so it's hardly challenging lighting for the human eye or an OVF. Take the EVF equipped G1 camera into a dingy venue or an out of town countryside environment and with a fast lens I can actually see more detail than I can see through my 5D's OVF but for me it doesn't matter because the camera becomes completely and utterly unusable and I find taking even one shot very uncomfortable plus of course it completely destroys night vision. It's my main complaint with my current G1 camera and the main factor which has stopped me buying another CSC untried on line. I'm certainly looking for an improvement before I sink another penny into CSC/EVF.

Anyway, just for fun... night fishing, Ili river, Kazakhstan... taken with my 5D ;D

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn313/alans70/Forum/Y12.jpg)
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: speedyk on January 20, 2013, 08:01:37 pm: Great photos everyone. I do not have that issue with my G1, wonder if there's a setting somewhere or if you have the latest firmware...mine gets pretty dark when it's dark. Issue I have with G1 is focusing in the dark with viewfinder dim, wish they'd have put an infinity lock on the lens. I hate trying to take a shot and getting that insipid red rectangle and it won't even try, but then it will take out-of-focus shots when the auto-focus gets fooled by something that moved. It is a bit on the wrong side of the amateur/consumer line for me.

MF is the way to sanity with the G1. Also, if you MF back and forth a bit and then settle in the middle, on P it will lengthen the exposure to attempt more DOF, compared to just snapping. This works even if the it's set to AF, but I half-press the shutter and then focus with the lens ring. Nice touch that says there were photogs around when it got designed.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: lowep on January 22, 2013, 07:09:35 am: night fishing, Ili river, Kazakhstan... taken with my 5D

apologies for intruding into this GH3 thread with a question about this Canon 5D image :-\

this was made without flash, right? would you mind sharing which lens, ss and f-stop? if you can get such night shots with a 5D why (apart from bells and whistles and dust bunnies and video) why should I bother spending more on any later model Canon DSLR if IQ is of paramount concern and 12mp is good enough?
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on January 22, 2013, 12:07:09 pm: Quote from: lowep on January 22, 2013, 07:09:35 am
night fishing, Ili river, Kazakhstan... taken with my 5D

apologies for intruding into this GH3 thread with a question about this Canon 5D image :-\

this was made without flash, right? would you mind sharing which lens, ss and f-stop? if you can get such night shots with a 5D why (apart from bells and whistles and dust bunnies and video) why should I bother spending more on any later model Canon DSLR if IQ is of paramount concern and 12mp is good enough?

Here is another showing just how good the 5Dc still is, sorry it's only a kid picture. iso 3200 f1.4, 1/13 handheld. That's under EV 0. Used auto focus.

(http://www.studio-beni.net/kids_sleep.jpg)

Honestly, it's still an utterly incredible camera. Only just bought a 5D3 yesterday because my 2nd 5Dc died from overuse and old age.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 22, 2013, 12:09:41 pm: Quote from: lowep on January 22, 2013, 07:09:35 am
night fishing, Ili river, Kazakhstan... taken with my 5D

...this was made without flash, right? would you mind sharing which lens, ss and f-stop?

I'm sorry for posting a 5D image in this thread. The reason I did so was that this is exactly the sort of shot and circumstance I'd love to use a compact system camera for but at the moment I have two issues with my admittedly ageing G1.

Firstly the very highest ISO performance is relatively poor, although this is probably fixed with the very latest cameras.

Secondly the light output from the EVF at wide apertures is uncomfortable for me. With my 25mm f0.95 and 55mm f1.7 I really can't use them wide open in very low light. At f2.8 it's much more useable but obviously I'm using a smaller aperture and therefore a higher ISO and/or shutter speed.

Still, not sooooo long ago I thought myself lucky to have an f4 lens.

The night fishing shot was taken with a 5D MK1, ISO 3200, 1/30 sec., Sigma 50mm f1.4 set at f1.4.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: fike on January 22, 2013, 01:54:08 pm: I like to read DPREview because it has a pretty comprehensive accounting of features and their database of raw images that can be compared side-by-side is quite large. I would never suggest that DPReview is the final authority on good cameras. I don't think they are. But I would say they are a credible resource when comparing cameras. I feel much the same about DXOMark.

As for reviews on the Panasonic...as a recent adopter of MFT with the OM-D it seems like the press can't quite consider smaller cameras as serious tools for photo work, though the OM-D is the best treated of the bunch. I see mirrorless (MFT or APS-C) eventually overtaking and replacing APS-C in the traditional DSLR size and shape. Some in the press are seeing that trend, but there is a lot of inertia around the old way of selling DSLRs and review sites mirror that inertia.

After that long off-topic rant...good luck with the GH3. I am sure you will like it.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: lowep on January 22, 2013, 02:19:38 pm: 5D MK1, ISO 3200, 1/30 sec., Sigma 50mm f1.4 set at f1.4

thanks, seeing is believing! Not sure if the GH3 or any other micro four thirds or APS=C camera can match this IQ?
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 22, 2013, 04:17:41 pm: Quote from: lowep on January 22, 2013, 02:19:38 pm
5D MK1, ISO 3200, 1/30 sec., Sigma 50mm f1.4 set at f1.4

thanks, seeing is believing! Not sure if the GH3 or any other micro four thirds or APS=C camera can match this IQ?

I may be wrong but I think that the very latest CSC probably could match the 5D at ISO 3200, at least in reasonably sized prints when viewed normally.

I've only had two MFT so far, a GF1 and a G1 and the image quality between the two is pretty much identical IMVHO. I use/d both on auto ISO which selects anything from 100-1600, 2000, 2500 and 3200 being available to select manually. I'd say that up to about ISO 800 is no problem at all with reasonably sized prints easily lost and indistinguishable in a pile of 5D shots. I'd also say that 1000-1600 are usable with just a little care and that even the values above 1600 are useable with just a little more care especially as these cameras (IMVHO) tend to over expose at least at the higher ISO's and once the exposure is backed off to look a little more like the actual scene things look even better.

I took this shot with a GF1, ISO 1600, 1/80, f1.7 and it's perfectly usable as is every other shot I took that evening.

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn313/alans70/Forum/Bel-Brugge-1.jpg)

If ISO 1600 is acceptable with first generation MFT cameras I'd expect the latest ones to do better. I'd certainly like to try one but the only thing that's stopping me from ordering one at the moment is the issue that I personally have with the light output. I appreciate that for some it may be a non issue but I personally find shooting at wide apertures in low light very uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Ken Bennett on January 22, 2013, 09:34:55 pm: I have a GF1 and a GH2, and my wife has a G1. IIRC the GF1 and G1 have the same sensor. They are good up to ISO 800 with a little post processing, then ISO 1600 is usable. ISO 3200 is not so good, in my experience. Really not usable.

The GH2 has a very usable 3200, and I've shot some decent photos at 6400. Getting a proper exposure helps a lot - my GH2 tends to underexpose by about 2/3 of a stop, and increasing the exposure in Lightroom also increases the noise.

Of course, my expectations for image quality may be much lower than others'.
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 23, 2013, 06:52:47 am: Quote from: k bennett on January 22, 2013, 09:34:55 pm
...GF1 and G1... ISO 3200 is not so good, in my experience. Really not usable.

Of course, my expectations for image quality may be much lower than others'.

Thinking about the performance I get from my own CSC v 5D and my own particular problems of higher ISO performance and actually using the cameras in low light I've convinced myself that from what I've seen on line the newer CSC's will provide good enough image quality for me to produce prints up to A3 at all ISO's up to and including 3200 and probably higher too with care.

I thought I'd check again the performance of my G1 at ISO 3200 but as I take very few shots at this setting I turned the light off and took the following test shot, ISO 3200, 1/2 sec. At the settings the camera chose it looked too bright to me and was also noisy. The exposure needed to be adjusted -1 and the darks and shadows set to -50 to produce a shot that still looked a little brighter than it looked to my eyes and more detail is still visible than I could actually see by eye, there is some blur because I couldn't hold the camera steady at this shutter speed. This is what I got...

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn313/alans70/Forum/_1120232s.jpg)

Here's the NR screen in CS5 showing ho-hum hardly heroic or extreme settings, in fact the NR could probably be pushed higher for a cleaner final image...

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn313/alans70/Forum/Radio32.jpg)

If I can get this from an elderly G1 with little effort I think that I'll be perfectly happy with the image quality of any of the newer CSC's at higher ISO's and the lenses look good to me too. So the only questions I now face are can I live with fly by wire no marking lenses (although I mostly use legacy lenses I do like to have a couple of newer AF lenses too) and can I feel comfortable using an EVF in low light.

If I can find a newer CSC I feel comfortable to use in low light I think I would take it night fishing in Kazakhstan ;D and not have any worries about actual image quality but perhaps my expectations are lower than others ;D

I'm sorry for taking this thread more than a little off track but hopefully no one minded...
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: Ken Bennett on January 23, 2013, 08:24:52 am: Quote from: scooby70 on January 23, 2013, 06:52:47 am
and not have any worries about actual image quality but perhaps my expectations are lower than others ;D

Heh. I put that disclaimer in my post because it seems that every time I like a photo that I shot with Camera X at some ridiculously high ISO value, and it makes what I think is a nice print, I'll see a dozen posts here and elsewhere decrying Camera X for being totally unusable at ISO 400. And here I thought my print looked fairly nice, but I guess not.... :)

Anyway, getting back to your comment on newer compact cameras, yes, I think if you pick up an OM-D or a GH3 you will be quite happy with the results. My GH2 has somehow managed to make some very nice images in spite of my low standards. :)
Title: Re: Panny GH3 - Still No Reviews
Post by: scooby70 on January 23, 2013, 08:43:53 am: I thought I had the lowest standards on the internet ;D but I see that there are others who are easy to please :D