Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steve Hendrix on January 10, 2013, 01:09:53 am

Title: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 10, 2013, 01:09:53 am
We have finally obtained the MTF charts for the Schneider LS lenses for thew Phase One and Mamiya DF/DF+ Camera Systems. Through our hands-on testing, we know what these lenses produce and how they perform in real world on their own, and in comparison to their siblings and cousins. But what fun is that? :rolleyes:

These charts cover the 55/80/110 LS Lenses. As soon as we have the charts for the 28/150/240 & 75-150 LS Lenses, we'll publish those as well.


Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses (https://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/)


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 10, 2013, 02:26:10 am
Hi Steve,

That link is broken..., please fix!

Here is a link that works: http://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Please note! The MTF curves are given for 15/30/60 lp/mm so you cannot compare directly with the Hasselblad/Zeiss/Leica curves which are given for 10/20/40 lp/mm. The way the Schneider MTF is presented is more demanding. It also makes a lot of sense as digital sensor resolve well beyond 40 lp/mm.

Best regards
Erik


We have finally obtained the MTF charts for the Schneider LS lenses for thew Phase One and Mamiya DF/DF+ Camera Systems. Through our hands-on testing, we know what these lenses produce and how they perform in real world on their own, and in comparison to their siblings and cousins. But what fun is that? :rolleyes:

These charts cover the 55/80/110 LS Lenses. As soon as we have the charts for the 28/150/240 & 75-150 LS Lenses, we'll publish those as well.


Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses (http://"https://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/")


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: bradleygibson on January 10, 2013, 03:00:44 am
It's nice to see close-focusing performance as well.  Thank you for posting this, Steve.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 10, 2013, 09:38:52 am
Hi Steve,

That link is broken..., please fix!

Here is a link that works: http://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Please note! The MTF curves are given for 15/30/60 lp/mm so you cannot compare directly with the Hasselblad/Zeiss/Leica curves which are given for 10/20/40 lp/mm. The way the Schneider MTF is presented is more demanding. It also makes a lot of sense as digital sensor resolve well beyond 40 lp/mm.

Best regards
Erik





Ah - thanks Eric. Fixed now. S'what happens when you post in the wee hours of the morning.



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 10, 2013, 09:27:07 pm
(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Schneider-MTF-039-750x1024.jpg)

How did this one get the Schneider stamp of approval?

Lines look like a roller coaster ride...

Here is the Schneider 47mm

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8053/8369494036_1e530f109e_b.jpg)

Massive difference.
especially considering the 47mm MTF is a 20/40/60 graph.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 10, 2013, 11:27:37 pm
Hi,

The waviness is coming from correction of the field. There is a significant field curvature which is compensated near the edge. No question that there is very little contrast at 65% of half diagonal and 60 lp/mm but the 30 lp/mm figure is quite decent.

The 55 mm lens is an inverted telephoto (Distagon in Zeiss speak) while the 47 mm is a symmetrical design (Biogon in Zeiss speak). Symmetrical designs usually have less issues with field curvature. Would Schneider not show the 60 lp/mm curve nobody would be complaining.

The curves normally shown used to be either 10, 20, 40 lp/mm or 10 and 30 lp/mm.

The 30 lp/mm curve seems to stay at 70% (varies between 57% and 80%) that is quite decent.

Also, note that the lens has very little astigmatism and very little chromatic aberration. The MTF-curves don't diverge much.

I don't think this is a bad lens.

Best regards
Erik


(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Schneider-MTF-039-750x1024.jpg)

How did this one get the Schneider stamp of approval?

Lines look like a roller coaster ride...

Here is the Schneider 47mm

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8053/8369494036_1e530f109e_b.jpg)

Massive difference.
especially considering the 47mm MTF is a 20/40/60 graph.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 11, 2013, 02:34:55 am
.....

I don't think this is a bad lens.

Best regards
Erik



At 5.6 it has 25% modulation at 22mm from the image center. That is not even in the corners of the frame.
25% modulation at 30 lpm at 5.6 is pretty lousy. The image will have a doughnut ring of lack of sharpness.

This is a grossly overpriced lens and not up to the standards one would expect from Schneider.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 11, 2013, 04:03:13 am
Hi,

I'm pretty sure that you got it wrong. Curves are 15/30/60 lp so 30/lp is second from top. 30 lp/mm is around 55% MTF at 22 mm from center.

Best regards
Erik

At 5.6 it has 25% modulation at 22mm from the image center. That is not even in the corners of the frame.
25% modulation at 30 lpm at 5.6 is pretty lousy. The image will have a doughnut ring of lack of sharpness.

This is a grossly overpriced lens and not up to the standards one would expect from Schneider.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 11, 2013, 12:45:46 pm
Look at the bottom row.

They sell this for $4,290.00???

Relative illumination at 2.8 has a fall off of 2 stops.
That means that a 2 stop lens correction has to be done
to correct this. That is quite destructive especially if you also need to make some other
modifications you choose to do.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: chrismuc on January 11, 2013, 10:38:13 pm
For comparison I put together MTF curves of some 645/66/135PC 50-55 mm retrofocus lenses.
Remarks:
- 100% on the horizontal axis (image circle) is not exactly the same
- the MTF are mostly 10/20/40 l/mm but 15/30/60 for the Schneider lenses and Rodenstock adds data even for 80 l/mm resolution
- all at f8 but Rodenstock at f5.6
- Zeiss Hasselblad is photodo data

The Rodenstock lens has highest and most even MTF but maybe that's more easily achievable due to the shorter register compared than the others.
The Fuji/Hasselblad and the two Zeiss lenses have pretty even and similar high MTF values.
Both Schneider lenses have most wavy MTF.

BTW: I once compared the Zeiss Hasselblad 50f4 FLE and the Schneider PC-TS 50f2.8 at 25 to 35mm image radius (Canon 5D2 at full shift) and the HB was sharper, had less CA and less distortion compared to the Schneider. And it achieves 16mm shift radius without vignetting and without sharpness drop (with Mirex shift adapter) while the Schneider only can do 12mm. And that for a fraction of the price:-)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 11, 2013, 11:12:06 pm
Hi,

Many lenses loose about two stops at full aperture. See Hasselblad HC 3.5/50-II plot below, almost 3 stops.

Best regards
Erik


Look at the bottom row.

They sell this for $4,290.00???

Relative illumination at 2.8 has a fall off of 2 stops.
That means that a 2 stop lens correction has to be done
to correct this. That is quite destructive especially if you also need to make some other
modifications you choose to do.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 11, 2013, 11:18:22 pm
Hi,

Just a few comments.

It is not easy to compare MTF charts at different lp/mm and with different scaling. Would Schneider just present the usual 10/20/40 plots it would be much easier to compare with Hasselblad.

The Rodenstock lens is probably a nearly symmetric design. Those lenses in general have less field curvature than telecentric designs needed for DSLR-s. You can probably compare Zeiss Biogon 38 (Hasselbald SWC) and Distagon 40 to see the difference. You cannot mount a symmetric wide angle on an SLR. That was also the reason for the Hasselbald SWC.

On the other hand, it is quite possible to construct excellent telecentric designs. The Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 and the Samyang 15/2.8 are excellent proofs of the concept.

Also, keep in mind that an MTF graph actually says very little about the general appearance of an image. Why? Because it is valid for the point of best focus! Just defocus 0.03 mm in the film plane and you may get somewhat different results! I was recently testing a few 150 mm lenses at 3.85 m distance and f/5.6. I would say that the area of best focus was not more than 5 cm on each side of best focus.

Best regards
Erik



For comparison I put together MTF curves of some 645/66/135PC 50-55 mm retrofocus lenses.
Remarks:
- 100% on the horizontal axis (image circle) is not exactly the same
- the MTF are mostly 10/20/40 l/mm but 15/30/60 for the Schneider lenses and Rodenstock adds data even for 80 l/mm resolution
- all at f8 but Rodenstock at f5.6
- Zeiss Hasselblad is photodo data

The Rodenstock lens has highest and most even MTF but maybe that's more easily achievable due to the shorter register compared than the others.
The Fuji/Hasselblad and the two Zeiss lenses have pretty even and similar high MTF values.
Both Schneider lenses have most wavy MTF.

BTW: I once compared the Zeiss Hasselblad 50f4 FLE and the Schneider PC-TS 50f2.8 at 25 to 35mm image radius (Canon 5D2 at full shift) and the HB was sharper, had less CA and less distortion compared to the Schneider. And it achieves 16mm shift radius without vignetting and without sharpness drop (with Mirex shift adapter) while the Schneider only can do 12mm. And that for a fraction of the price:-)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 11, 2013, 11:21:52 pm
Hi,

Many lenses loose about two stops at full aperture. See Hasselblad HC 3.5/50-II plot below, almost 3 stops.

Best regards
Erik



The Hasselblad HC 3.5 50mm-II is part of their new approach to lens design where they cut weight and costs
but then fix the lens with digital correction. It's important to keep in mind that correcting for this is equivalent
to shooting under exposed by two stops and then brightening up in post. This results in a loss of IQ away from the center of the lens.

That is not my idea of progress.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 12, 2013, 12:47:55 am
For comparison I put together MTF curves of some 645/66/135PC 50-55 mm retrofocus lenses.
Remarks:
- 100% on the horizontal axis (image circle) is not exactly the same
- the MTF are mostly 10/20/40 l/mm but 15/30/60 for the Schneider lenses and Rodenstock adds data even for 80 l/mm resolution
- all at f8 but Rodenstock at f5.6
- Zeiss Hasselblad is photodo data

The Rodenstock lens has highest and most even MTF but maybe that's more easily achievable due to the shorter register compared than the others.
The Fuji/Hasselblad and the two Zeiss lenses have pretty even and similar high MTF values.
Both Schneider lenses have most wavy MTF.

BTW: I once compared the Zeiss Hasselblad 50f4 FLE and the Schneider PC-TS 50f2.8 at 25 to 35mm image radius (Canon 5D2 at full shift) and the HB was sharper, had less CA and less distortion compared to the Schneider. And it achieves 16mm shift radius without vignetting and without sharpness drop (with Mirex shift adapter) while the Schneider only can do 12mm. And that for a fraction of the price:-)
Hi Chris (and Erik),

It is worth noting that some of the ~50mm MF lenses (Contax, Rollei-Schneider, Mamiya and HC) are/were designed for portraiture and as such they perform best in the centre of the image circle and at short-medium distances. Luminance and sharpness/ resolution away from the centre are less important for typical portrait applications and the same goes for distortion, but they are typically faster @ f2.8

The Zeiss 50mm FLE, Rodenstock 50mm HR and SK 47mm XL on the other hand are/were designed as general purpose lenses suitable for landscape, architecture etc. so they perform well across the frame and at infinity at the cost of being slower (f4-f5.6).

I believe that when you compared the two 50mm lenses (originally designed for Rollei) you've noticed the difference in viewing/focusing experience, with the SK 50/2.8 being brighter and easier to focus.

Horses for courses...if you look at MTF charts with this in mind you'll find that they make some sense...

Best

Yair
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 12, 2013, 12:58:55 am
Hi,

Wide angles for typical portrait applications?!

This article gives some insights in wide angle constructions: http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/en_CLB41_Nasse_LensNames_Distagon.pdf

Regarding light fall of, the natural limit is called cos4 , that is the cosine of the ray angle to the power of four. If we assume 56x44 mm and a focal length of 55 mm the ray angle would be 33 degrees, corresponding to 66 degrees of angle of view. The law of cosine four would give two stops of light fall off. Inverted telephoto designs are often a bit better than that.

http://toothwalker.org/optics/vignetting.html

Best regards
Erik


Hi Chris (and Erik),

It is worth noting that some of the ~50mm MF lenses (Contax, Rollei-Schneider, Mamiya and HC) are/were designed for portraiture and as such they perform best in the centre of the image circle and at short-medium distances. Luminance and sharpness/ resolution away from the centre are less important for typical portrait applications and the same goes for distortion, but they are typically faster @ f2.8

The Zeiss 50mm FLE, Rodenstock 50mm HR and SK 47mm XL on the other hand are/were designed as general purpose lenses suitable for landscape, architecture etc. so they perform well across the frame and at infinity at the cost of being slower (f4-f5.6).

I believe that when you compared the two 50mm lenses (originally designed for Rollei) you've noticed the difference in viewing/focusing experience, with the SK 50/2.8 being brighter and easier to focus.

Horses for courses...if you look at MTF charts with this in mind you'll find that they make some sense...

Best

Yair
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 12, 2013, 12:14:56 pm
I've updated our blog to reflect the newer Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses and their respective MTF charts (28mm LS, 150mm LS, 240mm LS).

Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses - Updated (https://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/)

This information has been requested from LL members numerous times in the past, and I've put some effort into collecting the data on their behalf. I also have to thank Ulrich Eilsberger of Schneider for his greatly appreciated assistance.

The publishing of these charts was not intended to be ammunition for those who harbor grudges, agendas and biases. It's a shame that some have decided to use the information for that purpose. What is interesting is that the actual users of these lenses - the people who did pay for them and who use them on a daily basis - don't seem inclined to describe how awful they are. I believe that, generally, when there is bad news, it gets published much more frequently than good news, so you'd think anecdotal information of poor performance would be all over the place. But perhaps they're just missing an agenda.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on January 12, 2013, 12:28:27 pm
Hi,
Wide angles for typical portrait applications?!

Erik,
I've seen stunning portraits made with WA - for example, see some of Platon's excellent work: http://platonphoto.com/portraits/arts/index.html

Ed
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 12, 2013, 12:49:59 pm
+1

I think it's a great service to the community. In my opinion the curves are OK.

Best regards
Erik

I've updated our blog to reflect the newer Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses and their respective MTF charts (28mm LS, 150mm LS, 240mm LS).

Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses - Updated (https://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/)

This information has been requested from LL members numerous times in the past, and I've put some effort into collecting the data on their behalf. I also have to thank Ulrich Eilsberger of Schneider for his greatly appreciated assistance.

The publishing of these charts was not intended to be ammunition for those who harbor grudges, agendas and biases. It's a shame that some have decided to use the information for that purpose. What is interesting is that the actual users of these lenses - the people who did pay for them and who use them on a daily basis - don't seem inclined to describe how awful they are. I believe that, generally, when there is bad news, it gets published much more frequently than good news, so you'd think anecdotal information of poor performance would be all over the place. But perhaps they're just missing an agenda.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 12, 2013, 02:06:55 pm
50mm medium format lenses designed as portrait lenses????

Never heard something so silly.

The angle of view of 50mm on 645 cameras is the closest to human angle of view/visual perception.
It is a very general purpose focal length. That said a fast (relatively fast) 2.8 50mm lens is nice
for environmental portraits, but this story about sharpness only being important in the center
for portraits is not true. many many portraits with wider lenses are taken with the subjects face far from
the center of the frame.

Also just go and look at the brochures of nearly every fast 50mm 645 wide angle lens or (35mm 24x36 lens).
The sample photos are landscapes.

Another thing I have found is that wide angle portrait work is really much better with a tilt shift lens.

The manufacturers can talk it up all they want, but even resolution or at least and smooth gradual fall off in resolution is important for wide angle lenses
be it portrait of landscape. With a wide angle lens features are smaller and hence to be described well need more resolution.

While most Mamiya Phase lenses are excellent when it comes to sharpness there is not an across the lens range consistency.

For example bokeh with the 150mm LS "Schneider" lens is not nice, however the Mamiya 150mm 2.8 is remarkably nice.. I would say
one of the all time best MF lenses.

My point is that the 55mm 2.8 LS is nothing special at all and grossly over priced for what you get.
On the other hand the older non LS Mamiya 55mm is really quite good and excellent for the price.
$ 800 vs over $ 4,000.
I have owned the Mamiya 55mm and tested the 55 LS.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: sgilbert on January 12, 2013, 03:10:20 pm
"My point is that the 55mm 2.8 LS is nothing special at all and grossly over priced for what you get."

Isn't this redundant?  Both your fans and your detractors surely know your point by now.  You've certainly made it often enough.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: henrikfoto on January 12, 2013, 04:01:54 pm
Hi Steve!

The curves from the 240LS. looks very impressing.
Have you compared it with the 120LS or 120mf?

Henrik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: bcooter on January 12, 2013, 04:42:08 pm
I don't know anything about MTF charts and the few times I've read the results it never matched up in the real world.

The Contax Zeiss lenses I use don't rate that high by most reviews, but they're sharp, almost too sharp but I think they're pretty and pretty is what it's all about.

Also I've never understood that a certain lens has to be used for a certain genre.  Sure if your shooting retail fashion you probably won't to compress a subject a little more than normal,
but like anything in life, there are no real rules.

This was shot with an Aptus 22 using a 45mm Hartblei which no one would consider a traditional portrait lens

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/boris_tilt_shift.jpg)

This also with an Aptus 22 with a 80mm Zeiss. and the next with a Zeiss 80mm on a p30+

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/contax_80.jpg) (http://www.russellrutherford.com/contax_80_black.jpg)

And this with a Leica 24 on a M8 which means the crop makes it something like a 35 lens on a full frame 35 camera

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/leicastudio5_sm_web.jpg)

Whatever looks pretty to the photographer works, the rest is just numbers.

To some the numbers are important and I can respect that, but to me it's just what it looks like that matters.

In reality, if you want to subtly change the look of a lens, if the scene permits, just pull back or get closer.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 12, 2013, 04:59:21 pm
Hi,

Regarding lenses, sharpness depends on how exact you focus. I have recently tested an old Sonnar 150/4 and performed very well on 24 MP APS-C. That lens has very good MTF and it performed accordingly. I even measured MTF and got very close to the published values, but I think this may have just been a coincidence. I used this lens because it was about second in sharpness among the classic lenses and I got a copy at very low cost. I may also add that my copy is very sensitive to lens flare.

I would say that MTF values describe the lens very well, but only at optimal focus. I do understand that lens makers base their designs on MTF but calculate dozens of MTF graphs for different focusing distance, defocus and also different spectrum of light.

Just looking at one set of MTF curves may be somewhat misleading.

Best regards
Erik

I don't know anything about MTF charts and the few times I've read the results it never matched up in the real world.

The Contax Zeiss lenses I use don't rate that high by most reviews, but they're sharp, almost too sharp but I think they're pretty and pretty is what it's all about.

Also I've never understood that a certain lens has to be used for a certain genre.  Sure if your shooting retail fashion you probably won't to compress a subject a little more than normal,
but like anything in life, there are no real rules.

This was shot with an Aptus 22 using a 45mm Hartblei which no one would consider a traditional portrait lens

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/boris_tilt_shift.jpg)

This also with an Aptus 22 with a 80mm Zeiss. and the next with a Zeiss 80mm on a p30+

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/contax_80.jpg) (http://www.russellrutherford.com/contax_80_black.jpg)

And this with a Leica 24 on a M8 which means the crop makes it something like a 35 lens on a full frame 35 camera

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/leicastudio5_sm_web.jpg)

Whatever looks pretty to the photographer works, the rest is just numbers.

To some the numbers are important and I can respect that, but to me it's just what it looks like that matters.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 13, 2013, 12:31:38 am
Hi,

Wide angles for typical portrait applications?!

Yes. Google the mentioned lenses and find the manufacturer descriptions...or speak to the people who design them, which is what I do regularly as part of my job...

Best

Yair
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Fine_Art on January 13, 2013, 01:43:37 am
Hi,

Wide angles for typical portrait applications?!

This article gives some insights in wide angle constructions: http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/en_CLB41_Nasse_LensNames_Distagon.pdf


Great article Erik, thanks.

You know, the explanation in there about keeping quality via lens symmetry with short registration distance (biogon) really sells the NEX with it's 18mm distance. I was looking for a good wide angle camera expecting to use my lenses on the FF A99 or it's successor. If I can get a FF NEX with top quality wide lenses it saves me a lot of money. I was even considering going Nikon D800 for wide and Sony for medium to telephoto APS-C.

I could even put the Canon T/S wide on it. I think my next camera will be NEX!

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: qwz on January 13, 2013, 01:49:06 am
2/24mm Distagon is excellent wide-angle lens for Sony mount.
Both for wide-open environmental portrait shots and landcape/architecture stuff.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qwz/8197336590/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qwz/8330515264/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qwz/8329457817/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qwz/8353537719/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qwz/8353543497/
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 13, 2013, 01:58:08 am
Hi,

It's not that simple, unfortunately. The symmetric wide angles have large "chief ray angle" which doesn't play well with present day FSI (Front Side Illuminated) sensors and micro lenses. Leica did some compromise on the M8 and somewhat less compromise on the M9 to work well M series lenses. Leica uses offset microlenses and thin IR filter for that reason.

If you google for "lens cast" you may find a lot of information. Some of the issues can be handled in software.

I don't know which top quality wide angles you need.

I have:

Sony ZA 24-70/2.8 (OK at f/8 all way out to corners, f/2.8 large sweet spot with weak corners)
Sigma 12-24/4.5-5.6 (Awful corners at 12 mm, almost usable 14-24 mm)
Samyang 14/2.8 (Almost OK across field at f/2.8, perfect at f/8, but this is a totally manual lens)
Minolta 20/2.8 (OK if stopped down to f/11)

You can also mount Zeiss ZF lenses on the Sony, using Leitax mounts: http://www.leitax.com/Voigtlander-lens-for-Sony-cameras.html

I have a Leitax adapter I never used (for reasons I don't have the time to explain), they seem nicely made.

Best regards
Erik


Great article Erik, thanks.

You know, the explanation in there about keeping quality via lens symmetry with short registration distance (biogon) really sells the NEX with it's 18mm distance. I was looking for a good wide angle camera expecting to use my lenses on the FF A99 or it's successor. If I can get a FF NEX with top quality wide lenses it saves me a lot of money. I was even considering going Nikon D800 for wide and Sony for medium to telephoto APS-C.

I could even put the Canon T/S wide on it. I think my next camera will be NEX!


Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 05:12:27 pm
I don't know anything about MTF charts and the few times I've read the results it never matched up in the real world.

The Contax Zeiss lenses I use don't rate that high by most reviews, but they're sharp, almost too sharp but I think they're pretty and pretty is what it's all about.

IMO

BC

The Contax 645 lenses rate very well and are known for their excellent quality as well as having a very nice look to them.

Also the MTF charts confirm this, especially on the wide angles.

Here is the Contax 645 chart overlaid on the Phase "Schneider" 55mm LS 2.8


(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8215/8380882281_6d028e1593_o.jpg)  
The Phase "Schneider" 55mm LS 2.8 is a 15/30/60 graph while the data for the Contax is 10/20/30

And here is the Contax 645 chart extrapolated to 15/30 overlaid on the
The Phase "Schneider" 55mm LS 2.8 is a 15/30/60 graph

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8376/8381963382_bc2ae359f9_o.jpg)

It is quite apparent that the old Contax lens is sharper and more uniform than the Phase "Schneider".
Interesting that a lens about 15 years old outperforms a lens designed more than 10 years later and is far more expensive.

This is why many people (including BC) stick with older Contax gear.







Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 14, 2013, 05:36:17 pm
I assume that it's clear to most readers that some commenters on this thread have sufficient backgrounds in lens design, optical quality testing, historical variations in MTF notations and derivation methods (along with the requisite background in photography to translate the numbers into what they do and don't tell you about the real world photographic result), to properly analyze the MTFs of these lenses while others do not.

Kudos to BCooter: he knows what he knows (a ton, especially how to make gorgeous images and run a successful image-making business) and knows what he doesn't know (some of the uber tech theory stuff), which allows him to provide an informative post that benefits the community. Above all he does not pretend to be an expert in areas that he is not. Respect!
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 14, 2013, 05:45:20 pm
It is quite apparent that the old Contax lens is sharper and more uniform than the Phase "Schneider".
Interesting that a lens about 15 years old outperforms a lens designed more than 10 years later and is far more expensive.

Dear Fred,

Have you shot and compared both lenses in a variety of circumstances? Or are you making your analysis through MTF charts alone?

Comparing two MTF charts from two different manufacturers a decade apart without knowing what criterium were used in their creation (other than cycle rates), and adding a pseudo interpolated curve for one of them, is, to put it mildly, an insufficiently thorough way of comparing two lenses for any given use.

I suggest the following authoritative reading on MTF charts, notably how messy they are to compare between vendors:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf (http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mtf.htm

More to the point I suggest shooting pictures with the lens in situations similar to how you would use it and then looking at the pictures to see if they suit your fancy, and how they compare to other viable options. What a crazy idea right?

Correcting misinformation on LL (nearly all from the same witch-hunter source) has become bad for my mental health and wellbeing.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Kolor-Pikker on January 14, 2013, 05:56:32 pm
I don't think anyone could fault the Schneiders for being soft or having a displeasing image. Also, the Contax 55mm is an f/3.5 lens, I would sure hope that it renders sharper if both of those MTF graphs are for the lenses wide open.

Which 645 lenses would you say are so bad as to be unusable or a waste to use on a 60/80mp back?
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 06:12:10 pm
I don't think anyone could fault the Schneiders for being soft or having a displeasing image. Also, the Contax 55mm is an f/3.5 lens, I would sure hope that it renders sharper if both of those MTF graphs are for the lenses wide open.

Which 645 lenses would you say are so bad as to be unusable or a waste to use on a 60/80mp back?

Both are at f8. Also there is very little difference between an f2.8 and an f3.5 lens. It's only 1/3rd of a stop.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 06:22:00 pm
Have you shot and compared both lenses in a variety of circumstances?
Or are you making your analysis through MTF charts alone?

Comparing two MTF charts from two different manufacturers a decade apart without knowing what criterium were used in their creation (other than cycle rates), and adding a pseudo interpolated curve for one of them, is, to put it mildly, an insufficiently thorough way of comparing two lenses for any given use.

"Have you shot and compared both lenses in a variety of circumstances?" Yup enough.
"Or are you making your analysis through MTF charts alone?" Nope.

I don't know what you mean pseudo interpolated .... I said extrapolated.

While there are differences in MTF graphs from different manufacturers they are still a good indication if you
know how to read them and take into consideration the modulation frequency.

However in this case the differences between manufacturers is not that relevant as the main issue here is the roller coaster
graph of the Phase One lens. A curve may be overall shifted up or down but different testing methods, but the relative height
across the curve (roller coaster) would not change. The differences across the frame of the 55 2.8 LS is very significant.
As can be seen with the 55mm 2.8 the Schneider Logo on the lens is not a guarantee of state of the art quality.



Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 06:26:05 pm
Dear Fred,

Have you shot and compared both lenses in a variety of circumstances? Or are you making your analysis through MTF charts alone?

Comparing two MTF charts from two different manufacturers a decade apart without knowing what criterium were used in their creation (other than cycle rates), and adding a pseudo interpolated curve for one of them, is, to put it mildly, an insufficiently thorough way of comparing two lenses for any given use.

I suggest the following authoritative reading on MTF charts, notably how messy they are to compare between vendors:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mtf.htm

More to the point I suggest shooting pictures with the lens in situations similar to how you would use it and then looking at the pictures to see if they suit your fancy, and how they compare to other viable options. What a crazy idea right?

Correcting misinformation on LL (nearly all from the same witch-hunter source) has become bad for my mental health and wellbeing.

Not a crazy idea at all. Actually one of my points is to compare the overpriced 55 2.8 LS to the respectable and older Mamiya 55mm 2.8
It's also a good idea to look at MTF graphs before taking test photos and looking to see if weaknesses indicated by the MTF graphs
are an issue for you in practice.

It's really silly when dealers and fan boys dismiss MTF graphs when they are used by every lens manufacturer to test and develop their lens designs.

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 06:29:46 pm
Kudos to BCooter: he knows what he knows (a ton, especially how to make gorgeous images and run a successful image-making business) and knows what he doesn't know (some of the uber tech theory stuff), which allows him to provide an informative post that benefits the community. Above all he does not pretend to be an expert in areas that he is not. Respect!

AND guess what ... he uses old Contax lenses and the Contax 645 with his digital back. He even shot the Phase One campaign with his old Contax lenses and Contax 645
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ken Doo on January 14, 2013, 06:56:02 pm
Not a crazy idea at all. Actually one of my points is to compare the overpriced 55 2.8 LS to the respectable and older Mamiya 55mm 2.8



Anyone that's actually owned and used both the older Mamiya 55mm 2.8 and the newer 55mm LS knows that there is a world of difference between the two lenses.  The old 55mm is a "throw-away" lens by comparison.  But maybe that's just me as my experience has been with using both lenses on the P65+ and IQ180.  The old 55mm was okay with much older MFDBs, and ahem, film.  And overpriced compared to what?  Sorry, but I disagree. The 55mm LS is a solid investment and a good performer.  I don't expect every Phase or SK lens that I buy to perform in the rarified air of the 150mm D, but that apparently is the standard you expect here of every Phase lens.  It seems every manufacturer has their "star" but I think it's unreasonable to hold that star-status standard to every other lens in the line and be objective, well, I guess unless your experience is limited to few months of shooting a Phase P25+ before abandoning the system and some obsessive witch-hunt mentality compels you to attack all-things Phase ad nauseum.  
Extrapolate all you want. When you enter your deep-seated bias into the equation it's just not helpful, and actually misleading imho.  

Imagine using a lens (especially if you think it's *ahem* overpriced) before you make a decision to purchase/invest.  Maybe actual experience will give you a better idea if a lens will work for you or not. MTF charts always had limited value to me.  Actually using a lens.  Wow, what a crazy concept that is Doug!   :P

The insinuation that "dealers" responding here are automatically biased is really offensive, particularly since they do have reputations for being fair, helpful, and transparent.  And then to call all others that actually have real life experience using medium format digital products for years (including Phase) "fan boys" is even more offensive, particularly when cast against someone who has an obvious axe to grind in a childish witch-hunt fashion against Phase One (and medium format digital), while having little if any real experience with the equipment in question.  Buying an old used P25+ digital back off of Ebay and then using it for oh, say 562 exposures/shots really doesn't count for much, though I guess it allows you can say, "I have owned and used a Phase digital back."  The overriding question that crosses my mind:  Is there really anything positive that this anti-Phase / witch hunt brings to this forum?  
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 14, 2013, 07:00:14 pm
Why are you extrapolating the contax 30 line on the second graph when you have overlain the original in the first graph ? Secondly, why is the extrapolated 30 contax line showing higher resolution (placed higher on the y-axis) when in the first graph the Schneider 30 line generally tends to out-resolve the contax 30 ?

Paul

The Contax 645 lenses rate very well and are known for their excellent quality as well as having a very nice look to them.

Also the MTF charts confirm this, especially on the wide angles.

Here is the Contax 645 chart overlaid on the Phase "Schneider" 55mm LS 2.8


(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8215/8380882281_6d028e1593_o.jpg)  
The Phase "Schneider" 55mm LS 2.8 is a 15/30/60 graph while the data for the Contax is 10/20/30

And here is the Contax 645 chart extrapolated to 15/30 overlaid on the
The Phase "Schneider" 55mm LS 2.8 is a 15/30/60 graph

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8376/8381963382_bc2ae359f9_o.jpg)

It is quite apparent that the old Contax lens is sharper and more uniform than the Phase "Schneider".
Interesting that a lens about 15 years old outperforms a lens designed more than 10 years later and is far more expensive.

This is why many people (including BC) stick with older Contax gear.








Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ken Doo on January 14, 2013, 07:01:45 pm
AND guess what ... he uses old Contax lenses and the Contax 645 with his digital back. He even shot the Phase One campaign with his old Contax lenses and Contax 645

And the point?

This is a pretty misleading statement.  I don't think anyone but old Cooter can tell you why he uses an old Contax.  Maybe it's because he likes it?  It smells nice?  Dunno.  But your insinuation here is that James uses the old Contax because he doesn't like the Phase DF or the performance of the line of lenses.  I just didn't get that from Cooter's post.  I think the best part that makes sense from Cooter is, "Whatever looks pretty to the photographer works, the rest is just numbers."

 :)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 07:23:35 pm
And the point?

This is a pretty misleading statement.  I don't think anyone but old Cooter can tell you why he uses an old Contax.  Maybe it's because he likes it?  It smells nice?  Dunno.  But your insinuation here is that James uses the old Contax because he doesn't like the Phase DF or the performance of the line of lenses.  I just didn't get that from Cooter's post.  I think the best part that makes sense from Cooter is, "Whatever looks pretty to the photographer works, the rest is just numbers."

 :)

What I wrote isn't insinuating anything.... simply that he uses older Contax lenses and loves them.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 07:39:27 pm
Why are you extrapolating the contax 30 line on the second graph when you have overlain the original in the first graph ? Secondly, why is the extrapolated 30 contax line showing higher resolution (placed higher on the y-axis) when in the first graph the Schneider 30 line generally tends to out-resolve the contax 30 ?

Paul


Here are all three sets overlaid... should clear it up for you.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8081/8381242681_d8838401f3_o.jpg)

Red is Contax 10/20/40
Black is Phase "Schneider" 15/30/60
Blue is the extrapolated curve averaging the Contax  10/20 for 15 and 20/40 for 30.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 14, 2013, 07:45:14 pm

It would have been clearer had you written 10/20/40  instead of 10/20/30 in your original post...


Here are all three sets overlaid... should clear it up for you.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8081/8381242681_d8838401f3_o.jpg)

Red is Contax 10/20/40
Black is Phase "Schneider" 15/30/60
Blue is the extrapolated curve averaging the Contax  10/20 for 15 and 20/40 for 30.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 14, 2013, 07:56:07 pm

A few more questions:

 - What method was used to calculate the average curve ?
 - does the average of two mtf curves correctly predict the curve for this new cycle ? Is the drop in resolution across cycles linear ?

Paul

Here are all three sets overlaid... should clear it up for you.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8081/8381242681_d8838401f3_o.jpg)

Red is Contax 10/20/40
Black is Phase "Schneider" 15/30/60
Blue is the extrapolated curve averaging the Contax  10/20 for 15 and 20/40 for 30.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 14, 2013, 08:11:02 pm
A few more questions:

 - What method was used to calculate the average curve ?
 - does the average of two mtf curves correctly predict the curve for this new cycle ? Is the drop in resolution across cycles linear ?

Paul


Averages as I said before so it may be a wee bit off, but the point of this is not to determine the absolute resolution, but to show the more consistent curve of the Contax.

I think it's pretty safe to say that consistency over the frame is an important factor.

Modern 35mm DSLR 35mm 1.4 lenses have improved significantly and have nice smooth MTF curves

Canon:
(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/lens/ef_35_14mtf.gif)

Nikon:
(http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/en_INC/IMG/Assets/Camera-Lenses/2010/2198-AF-S-NIKKOR-35mm-f1.4G/Misc/AFS_35_G_MTF_i.jpg)

These are also lenses with shallower depth of field and very nice bokeh and still achieve a smooth MTF curve. Their is falloff but very little roller coaster down and up.

Also I don't know what Nikon did with the 35 1.4G, but the relative illumination is excellent wide open, but drops a bit as you stop down...
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 14, 2013, 11:57:48 pm
Hi,

I wouldn't exactly say that evenness is important as long as the curve stays reasonably high. I would regard a lens with MTF 40lp/mm > 50% a very good lens.

This wavy curves normally come from waviness of the field. So if you put focus on the subject, like the eye of the subject, and that part is around 22mm of center sharpness will be improved at that point. But reduced elsewhere. But, absolute sharpness can only exist in a very thin plane, so only the parts of the image having absolute focus are optimally sharp.

This situation is different if you shoot repro, where the whole image is in the same plane or distant landscape, those are the situations where a really flat field helps.

That of course takes us back to focus, I still consider live view necessary for pin point focus accuracy. If you cannot focus exactly great MTF cannot be achieved anyway.

Best regards
Erik

Averages as I said before so it may be a wee bit off, but the point of this is not to determine the absolute resolution, but to show the more consistent curve of the Contax.

I think it's pretty safe to say that consistency over the frame is an important factor.

Modern 35mm DSLR 35mm 1.4 lenses have improved significantly and have nice smooth MTF curves

Canon:
(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/lens/ef_35_14mtf.gif)

Nikon:
(http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/en_INC/IMG/Assets/Camera-Lenses/2010/2198-AF-S-NIKKOR-35mm-f1.4G/Misc/AFS_35_G_MTF_i.jpg)

These are also lenses with shallower depth of field and very nice bokeh and still achieve a smooth MTF curve. Their is falloff but very little roller coaster down and up.

Also I don't know what Nikon did with the 35 1.4G, but the relative illumination is excellent wide open, but drops a bit as you stop down...
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 15, 2013, 12:11:18 am

Erik summed it up pretty well:


Quote
The 55 mm lens is an inverted telephoto (Distagon in Zeiss speak) while the 47 mm is a symmetrical design (Biogon in Zeiss speak). Symmetrical designs usually have less issues with field curvature. Would Schneider not show the 60 lp/mm curve nobody would be complaining.

The curves normally shown used to be either 10, 20, 40 lp/mm or 10 and 30 lp/mm.

The 30 lp/mm curve seems to stay at 70% (varies between 57% and 80%) that is quite decent.

Also, note that the lens has very little astigmatism and very little chromatic aberration. The MTF-curves don't diverge much.

I don't think this is a bad lens.

Schneider is using much higher sets of cycle figures than other manufacturers (60 lppm = 50% > than what most other manufacturers state). Other Distagon designs such as the 50mm lenses from Rollei and Zeiss show similar curve shapes. As Erik stated, it's the nature of the lens design. As to new vs older lens designs, many older lenses like the Zeiss Biogon 38mm designed over 50 years ago have barely improved, and mostly due only to lens coating improvements.

As others have said, it's hard to compare graphs from different manufacturers; not only does Schneider use stricter/higher cycle figures, they also provide graphs for 3 different focusing distances (you chose close up focusing) while your graph for the Contax only shows sagittal or tangential without knowing which at some unknown focusing distance.

Since you didn't answer how you calculated the averages I'll assume you eyeballed it with Microsoft Paint. Looking at dozens of MTF graphs it appears that contrast fall off is not proportional to a decrease in cycles/mm so your extrapolations are quite likely inaccurate and not very meaningful. Why you even bother is beyond me. I still shoot film so I'm pretty unbiased but reading your comments on this forum it seems like you jump on every chance you get to bash Phase One - I'm curious why.

Posting MTF charts for 35mm lenses without any context or reference to focal length is also pretty silly. The MTF for the Nikon gives the impression it must  be incredibly soft along the edges and based on your extrapolation methods a 60 cycles/mm curve would begin at... 25% ? At 30 lppm the line already drops to 50% halfway through the frame. Nothing like a (Insert token D800 reference here) to take advantage of that lens ;)

As Erik stated, the MTF graphs for the Schneider 55mm are quite good and my 'similarly designed' Hasselbald CF 50mm FLE produces stellar images. The other Phase Schneider lens MTF graphs are excellent and pixelpeeping at the Phase Schneider files on the digital transitions website, the images are very impressive :

https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-testing/28mm-32mm-test

The PS 55 also seems to have very good relative illumination across the field with little light fall off around the edges. I'm not sure that consistency is that big of a factor, what the 'rollercoaster' graph tells me is that there is a bit of drop in contrast that picks up again all the way to the outer edges of the frame instead of 'consistently' dropping off a cliff like the Nikon lens.

PS - Could you edit your original post to indicate the contax curves being 10/20/40 instead of 10/20/30 ? It's a bit confusing when comparing the graphs.


Averages as I said before so it may be a wee bit off, but the point of this is not to determine the absolute resolution, but to show the more consistent curve of the Contax.

I think it's pretty safe to say that consistency over the frame is an important factor.

Modern 35mm DSLR 35mm 1.4 lenses have improved significantly and have nice smooth MTF curves

Canon:
(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/lens/ef_35_14mtf.gif)

Nikon:
(http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/en_INC/IMG/Assets/Camera-Lenses/2010/2198-AF-S-NIKKOR-35mm-f1.4G/Misc/AFS_35_G_MTF_i.jpg)

These are also lenses with shallower depth of field and very nice bokeh and still achieve a smooth MTF curve. Their is falloff but very little roller coaster down and up.

Also I don't know what Nikon did with the 35 1.4G, but the relative illumination is excellent wide open, but drops a bit as you stop down...
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 15, 2013, 12:57:12 am
Hi,

As far as I can see it the curve for the Nikon lens is as f/1.4, few lenses really excel at that aperture. I have seen that some test indicating the Nikon is an excellent lens.

Also, I may add that most curves shown may be calculated data instead of measured data. Especially, some curves presented by Sony give me the impression that they have originated in the design departement and not in the lens design departement.

Thanks for chiming in. I feel it's unfortunate the Schneider is getting a lot of flak for presenting honest MTF data, I wish more companies would do that, but that will not happen if we misuse the data to discredit the vendors.

Best regards
Erik



Posting MTF charts for 35mm lenses without any context or reference to focal length is also pretty silly. The MTF for the Nikon gives the impression it must  be incredibly soft along the edges and based on your extrapolation methods a 60 cycles/mm curve would begin at... 25% ? At 30 lppm the line already drops to 50% halfway through the frame. Nothing like a (Insert token D800 reference here) to take advantage of that lens ;)

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: henrikfoto on January 15, 2013, 02:58:13 am
I find it very interesting to read Fred's comments. I think he gets a lot of negative bullshit from
those who should know better.

The fact is: The lenses made 10 years ago were just as good, an sometimes better,
than the new Phase or Hasselblad H lenses. People don't like to admit that after investing
a lot in the "digital" lenses. I am not a tecnical guy like Fred, but I have tested and own a
lot of different lenses and backs. From my experience the new Phase lenses are good,
but not at all better than the older Hasselblad or Contax lenses.
The leaf shutter is of course an improvement for many.

Some of the older lenses can not even be made anymore because they used glas which is
now limited because of enviromental issues. Hope everybody understands my english :D
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 15, 2013, 08:20:00 am
I find it very interesting to read Fred's comments. I think he gets a lot of negative bullshit from
those who should know better.

The fact is: The lenses made 10 years ago were just as good, an sometimes better,
than the new Phase or Hasselblad H lenses. People don't like to admit that after investing
a lot in the "digital" lenses. I am not a tecnical guy like Fred, but I have tested and own a
lot of different lenses and backs. From my experience the new Phase lenses are good,
but not at all better than the older Hasselblad or Contax lenses.
The leaf shutter is of course an improvement for many.

Some of the older lenses can not even be made anymore because they used glas which is
now limited because of enviromental issues. Hope everybody understands my english :D

You misunderstand my frustration.

I agree: there are many absolutely fantastic older lenses. Newer or more expensive does not necessarily mean better. In fact BCooter loves his (old) lenses and I specifically called out that post as being a post useful to the community.

My point is that anyone who actually understands MTF curves knows it is highly suspect to compare MTFs from different sources, or to draw too broad of conclusions from them. To use them as conclusive evidence for definitive sweeping statements is the worst form of justification-by-technobabble.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: bcooter on January 15, 2013, 04:46:44 pm
I think anybody's critique would have a lot more validity if they didn't go after one brand or format  and they would show some "photographs" that are relevant or informing.

Also in every large rental stage I work in, from New York, LA, Milan and Tokyo is a rarity if I don't see one of the world's premier photographers shooting on set with a medium format camera and back, with Phase being the predominate back.

I don't think everyone that uses medium format is wrong or has thrown away their medium cameras for a Nikon.

Anyway, pretty photographs are fun, charts make me sleepy and Fred is capable of taking pretty photos show them and really make a statement.

If I believed every chart, every spread sheet that comes my way, wall street would own my studios, my cars, my clothes my house and my dog.  

See is believing.

But for the record I use a contax for digital because at the time the DF wasn't to the level it is today, the H system didn't have their complete integrated approach of camera to back and I'd heard rumblings of Phase and Hasselblad not getting along, so the Contax was the best option for me at the time.

Today who knows?

Doug says the old lenses are good and sure, they are, but the Contax doesn't autofocus as fast as the DF or the H4, that is one thing I've tested.  It works, works good and once you learn it's nuances its accurate, but you gotta think about it.

I also find the Contax lenses sharp, usually a little over sharp and brittle and honestly never liked them for transparency film as they are very contrasty, though since digital is kind of broad and flat in the middle they work fine.

But let's also be honest about lenses.  Anytime I see a "bad' lens is there usually was some problem in manufacturing or shipping.  Any lens that costs more than a pair of converse sneakers is usually sharp and good.  

It might have some distortion or fall off at the edges slightly but I don't mind that because I rarely have to worry about edge sharpness and distortion is a batch, easy software fix.  

I haven't test every phase/mamiya lens but I doubt very seriously if in todays time a manufacturer that sells high definition still cameras would ship non sharp lenses.  

I've got a lot of glass, PL mount RED's, Angenieux, Nikon mounts new, old, Nikon and Zeiss, a box of Canon lenses, some Leica glass even some Voigtlander.  For my Contax I have all but the 300 and the zoom (mostly 2 of each) Pentax 6x7 lenses with convertors, Hasselblad lenses with convertors Hartblei with a Contax mount and all are different, in color, tone, look and sharpness and I wouldn't say the lease sharp one is bad, I'd just say it looks different.

This project of about 18 setups was shot with a old Hartblei 45mm tilt shift except one image that I shot with the Zeiss 80mm.  (Zeiss on the left and old Hartblei on the right.)

(http://spotsinthebox.com/zeiss80_hart_45.jpg)

For this project I didn't like the Zeiss lens as I think it's too sharp and too crisp it falls off quickly, but 99% of the world wouldn't pick the old model Hartblei because it's not that sharp and by most pixel examiners they probably wouldn't like it.

BTW:  I've never shown these two photos side by side where anyone knew the difference . . . I did but I shot it and I thought there was a difference.

The thing is with digital as with film, every lens, every film (or digital) receptor, every lighting style produces a different effect and the only way I know what lens to pick is from using them.

I know photographers, DP's that swear over certain lenses.  They're just completely sure that the Panavision lens toasts a Cooke, a Nikon is better than a Canon, anything Zeiss or Leica rocks and for them and they're 100% correct . . . but for the rest of the world, it's all personal choice.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on January 15, 2013, 05:01:36 pm
BC,
The image on the right is stunning, simply stunning. Real work and examples trump charts any day of the week as it's all about how lenses perform in use under real world conditions.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts (putting things in perspective)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 15, 2013, 05:35:14 pm
Hi,

MTF curves say a lot about a lens. They are actually easy to understand, the higher the better. On the other hand, MTF just tells about sharpness, and that sharpness is only achieved in a single plane of focus. The link below shows the effect of defocus and diffraction for a 100/2.8 macro lens at 3 m. Best aperture is 5.6, going past 5.6 diffraction starts taking it's toll, defocusing 3 cm at 3m looses significant sharpness. What the MTF curve shows is sharpness at optimum aperture and exact focus. (Well, the curves are often given for maximum aperture and optimum aperture or f/8).

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/49-dof-in-digital-pictures?start=1

When shooting landscape at infinity at optimum aperture we do approach the MTF data. Also if we achieve optimal focus in a single point (or plane) we approach the MTF data. But for real 3D subjects at close and intermediate distances most of the subject will be slightly out of focus. Optical designers live by MTF curves but they probably calculate dozens or even hundreds of them. They calculate MTF for different amount of defocus, for instance.

An excellent MTF curve doesn't say that a lens makes good images or even sharp images. A lens with a really bad MTF curve cannot achieve brutal sharpness, but in many cases that may not be needed.

I would recommend this publication by Zeiss for anyone interested: http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b8b6f/embedtitelintern/cln_35_bokeh_en/$file/cln35_bokeh_en.pdf

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on January 15, 2013, 07:33:10 pm
Erik,

The Zeiss publication appears to be interesting reading. It's more than I can digest with a full plate, so I'll need to spread it out over a period of time. Thanks for the link and know that your intelligent comments are educational.

When I am in the market for a lens, though I have peeked at MTF charts on occasion, I would rather see images (when possible) made with lenses similar to how I plan to use a lens. Of course, I am interested in crispness, contrast, falloff, rendition and bokeh, but I am most interested in the "look" that a lens provides.

Once I have zeroed in on a particular model I have always believed it was necessary to test the lens, or multiple copies when that is possible (decreasingly so today) under the conditions that I plan to use it. I won't purchase a lens anywhere that I cannot return it within at least seven days.

While I don't have a "ton" of lenses, those that I do own are pleasing to me irregardless of what the MTF charts might reveal.

Ed
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 16, 2013, 04:12:46 pm
I find it very interesting to read Fred's comments. I think he gets a lot of negative bullshit from
those who should know better.

The fact is: The lenses made 10 years ago were just as good, an sometimes better,
than the new Phase or Hasselblad H lenses. People don't like to admit that after investing
a lot in the "digital" lenses. I am not a tecnical guy like Fred, but I have tested and own a
lot of different lenses and backs. From my experience the new Phase lenses are good,
but not at all better than the older Hasselblad or Contax lenses.
The leaf shutter is of course an improvement for many.

Some of the older lenses can not even be made anymore because they used glas which is
now limited because of enviromental issues. Hope everybody understands my english :D



Hi Henrik -

I agree - there is no reason to cast older lenses in a negative light, there are many strong performers and good glass is good glass. The one area where newer lenses usually outperform is with respect to chromatic aberration, and of course high sync speeds with certain leaf shutters, etc.

But back to the Schneider 55mm and its wavy charts. We compared this lens against the Hasselblad 60mm/3.5 CB Lens. While they appear equally sharp (and equally focused) in the center, the edges are a different story. All 4 edges look equally similar wit each lens. Draw your own conclusions. Raws are available upon request.

This isn't to make any point about old vs new (I'm in favor of both - if they are both good), other than a response to the hand wringing over the charts.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration


Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: henrikfoto on January 16, 2013, 06:40:02 pm
Hi Steve!

At what apperture wete these shots made?
And what shutterspeed?
Blitz?

Henrik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 16, 2013, 07:46:51 pm
Hi Steve!

At what apperture wete these shots made?
And what shutterspeed?
Blitz?

Henrik


They were f/8 @ 1/125. Blitz?

Again - they're not meant to definitively say how great the Schneider 55 is or how average the Hasselblad 60 is. I think anyone that approaches lenses with a fair and open mind will understand that there are few absolute rules on old vs new lenses. And really, this example is meant more to show real world performance in light of the wavy MTF charts - and in light of the concept of using a medium lens as a portrait lens or a non-flat field lens. I didn't check, but I wonder what the MTF chart for the Hasselblad 60mm lens looks like.

I also have a comparison between the Contax 80/2 and the Hassleblad HC 80/2.8. They are much closer in performance, so again it's not about newer being better than older.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 16, 2013, 11:59:33 pm
Hi,

Thanks for sharing. Depending the size of the sensor and the crop position it is possible that your crops don't cover the area where the Schneider has it's minimum. The Distagon also has some waviness. See samples below. Both Schneider and Distagon have their minimum at around 22 mm of center. It's hard to compare the graphs as they cover different frequencies.

In the corners the Schneider recovers while the Hasselblad lens drops. So I would expect the Schneider to be much better in the corners on non cropped MF. If we look at the minimum MTF the Schneider perhaps would give 44 % at 40lp/mm (by linear interpolation). Pretty much like the Distagon 60.

The Zeiss Distagon 35/2 ZF.2 has also some waviness, at 15 mm of center it would have around 50% MTF according to Zeiss MTF graphs, but that performance would be reached by f/4. The 35/2 ZF.2 is a 135 format lens.

The Hasselblad HC50II has also some waviness. It comes in at around 55-60 at 40 lp/mm. About the same as the Schneider, if I may guess.

Attachement order:

Schneider 55
Hasselblad Distagon 60
Zeiss 35/2 ZF.2
Hasselblad HC50II

Best regards
Erik




Hi Henrik -

I agree - there is no reason to cast older lenses in a negative light, there are many strong performers and good glass is good glass. The one area where newer lenses usually outperform is with respect to chromatic aberration, and of course high sync speeds with certain leaf shutters, etc.

But back to the Schneider 55mm and its wavy charts. We compared this lens against the Hasselblad 60mm/3.5 CB Lens. While they appear equally sharp (and equally focused) in the center, the edges are a different story. All 4 edges look equally similar wit each lens. Draw your own conclusions. Raws are available upon request.

This isn't to make any point about old vs new (I'm in favor of both - if they are both good), other than a response to the hand wringing over the charts.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts (Slightly off topic)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 17, 2013, 01:27:17 am
Hi,

This posting is off topic, but gives some insights in modern lens designs, I hope.

Zeiss develops lenses to be used for Nikon, the ZF.2 series, they also develop lenses for Sony. One of the legendary lenses is the 21/2.8 Distagon, a quite complex design with 15 elements in 13 groups. Known to be an outstanding performer.

Zeiss seems to have lot of pride in the new Distagon T* 25/2 ZF.2. This lens has two aspherical surfaces and three lenses with anomalous partial dispersion. Aspheric elements have been around for long but now it is possible to make moulded aspherics although only a few glass compositions can be used for those lenses.

With these new technologies the lens design can be made simpler.

These publication from Zeiss is an interesting read: http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/en_CLB41_Nasse_LensNames_Distagon.pdf

The enclosed figures from that article show the different MTF characteristics of the two lenses. Note that far out corners drop on the 25/2 design.  Also the radial and sagittal graphs separate at 40 lp/mm on the Distagon 25/2. This may indicate the lateral chromatic aberration is not fully corrected. This is stated clearly in the article above, but it is also clearly said that there is very little color fringing. The remaining color fringing can be removed in raw conversion.

The drop of at the outer corner is an interesting design choice by Zeiss. The sweet spot of the lens is very large and it gives excellent performance over a very large part of the image even at full aperture, but getting corners sharp needs a lot of stopping down.

The Distagon 25/2 also has a floating group which improves performance at close focus distances.

As a final word, once a lens is good enough, and most of them are, the main issue is to hone the skills of the photographer to make best use of the lens. Tripod, MLU, pinpoint focus, that stuff.

Best regards
Erik







Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: chrismuc on January 17, 2013, 03:28:41 am
:: Steve H.
Also acc. my tests, the Zeiss Hasselblad CF 60f3.5 does not perform so well outside center, the CF/CFi 50f4 FLE is much better (at any aperture).
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: chrismuc on January 17, 2013, 03:51:06 am
Actually the corner sharpness of the Schneider 55 of Steves pic also does not look convincing to me.

For comparison a stiched image by 5D2 + Mirex + the Zeiss Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE 16mm shifted upwards plus 12mm downwards and two crops at 2/3 image radius (where the MTF drop of the Schneider would be) and at the corner of 16mm shift.

The corner of the 16mm shift refers to an image circle of 72 mm which is already beyond the 645 image circle of 67mm (sensor 54x40mm).
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 17, 2013, 05:13:31 am
Actually the corner sharpness of the Schneider 55 of Steves pic also does not look convincing to me.

For comparison a stiched image by 5D2 + Mirex + the Zeiss Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE 16mm shifted upwards plus 12mm downwards and two crops at 2/3 image radius (where the MTF drop of the Schneider would be) and at the corner of 16mm shift.

The corner of the 16mm shift refers to an image circle of 72 mm which is already beyond the 645 image circle of 67mm (sensor 54x40mm).

Chris as I said before (to the "surprise" of some people) the 55mm was designed predominantly as a fast portrait lens for relative close distances. This is the manufacturer's description (the same one I happen to work for...): Minimal distortion wide angle design, provides a normal look, great for editorial portraits and on location lifestyle photography

The 50mm F4 FLE is a general purpose lens that has the floating element which flattens the field for closer distances. It is slower than the 55mm and when challenged with a high MP back it won't be as sharp in the centre of the frame. In my experience it is also a bit more prone to flaring.

I hope this makes sense

Yair

Yair
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 17, 2013, 09:25:52 am
Chris as I said before (to the "surprise" of some people) the 55mm was designed predominantly as a fast portrait lens for relative close distances. This is the manufacturer's description (the same one I happen to work for...): Minimal distortion wide angle design, provides a normal look, great for editorial portraits and on location lifestyle photography

The 50mm F4 FLE is a general purpose lens that has the floating element which flattens the field for closer distances. It is slower than the 55mm and when challenged with a high MP back it won't be as sharp in the centre of the frame. In my experience it is also a bit more prone to flaring.

I hope this makes sense

Yair

Yair


What is often not realized is that lenses are designed and manufactured with very directed and specific usage in mind. Some may provide better edge to edge results, some may be optimized for better stopped down (or wide open) performance, some for better near focus (or long focus) performance.

What I have found is that with many products, there is a depth of intent that occurs in the design and manufacturing process that often escapes (or is not known to) the perspective of users (or appraisers).

Also, I forgot to mention, these captures were with a Phase One P65+ in both cases (V and M mount).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: MarkoRepse on January 17, 2013, 09:45:52 am
Chris as I said before (to the "surprise" of some people) the 55mm was designed predominantly as a fast portrait lens for relative close distances. This is the manufacturer's description (the same one I happen to work for...): Minimal distortion wide angle design, provides a normal look, great for editorial portraits and on location lifestyle photography


Good to know about the 55mm. Can you comment on the other lenses where they perform best?
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: chrismuc on January 18, 2013, 12:31:15 am
:: Yaha and Steve

Hmm, I can't really follow your idea that a lens with lower out-of-center resolution would be designed or especially suitable for portrait shooting because this assumes that the object (esp. the head of the person) is quite exactly in the center of the image.

Enclosed two samples by Contax N 50f1.4 at open aperture with object out of center and good sharpness.
How should such images in sufficient sharpness be possible with the Schneider 55 lens?
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 18, 2013, 12:50:14 am
Hi Yair and Doug,

So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 18, 2013, 01:16:23 am
Hi,

I think you miss out a bit.

The "problem" the Schneider has is that the field is wavy. So the plane of best focus move back and forth when you move across the film plane. So the area where the lens looses MTF the loss is mostly (read entirely) attributable to small amount of defocus. If you place you main subject in the zone having the lowest MTF and focus on your subject MTF will be better than in the charts. Background will be out of focus anyway.

If you shoot at two-three meters with a 55 mm lens the zone with the best sharpness will be quite thin, unless you stop down hard, stopping down will improve MTF in the weak part reduce MTF elsewhere.

Also I would add that the LS 55 reaches something like 40-50% at 40 lp/mm, even at minimum, that is quite decent by any means.

On the other hand, I would also guess that modern designs are better. Using aspherics, SD glass and floating elements.

Hasselblad has a broschure comparing the old Zeiss lenses with the new Hasselblad designed Fujifilm built lenses. The new lenses are said to be better corrected for close distances while the older Zeiss lenses are corrected for infinity.

Looking at the MTF plots of the Zeiss Macro Planar 120/4 is quite instructive: http://lenses.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/hasselblad_cf/makro-planar4_120_cf_107836_e.pdf

The enclosed images show MTF at infinity (not impressive at all) and close (quite good). The Zeiss Macro Planar 120/4 is regarded a good lens, in spite of the curves.

Best regards
Erik





:: Yaha and Steve

Hmm, I can't really follow your idea that a lens with lower out-of-center resolution would be designed or especially suitable for portrait shooting because this assumes that the object (esp. the head of the person) is quite exactly in the center of the image.

Enclosed two samples by Contax N 50f1.4 at open aperture with object out of center and good sharpness.
How should such images in sufficient sharpness be possible with the Schneider 55 lens?
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 18, 2013, 01:28:42 am
Hi,

Buying a lens on EBay is a risk. There is a lot of sample variation on lenses.

On the other hand, Mamiya lenses can be very good.

Joseph Holmes has two great articles on the issue. He went from 4x5" film to MFD and tried to optimize quality all the way. I got the impression that he ended up with Mamiya lenses, sometimes choosing the best of five samples.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html

He also found a lot of problems:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

I would suggest that the above articles indicate that it is advantegous to work with a good dealer who stands behind their products. Steve Hendrix indicated in another posting that all problems with alignment can be solved. Out of spec lenses can be a bit difficult, but I guess that you can work out a reasonable return deal with a dealer.

Working with a dealer is of course not free. They need earn living, too.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Yair and Doug,

So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 18, 2013, 02:25:06 am
Hi Yair and Doug,

So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Cheers

Simon

Hi Simon,

Neither will work on your Nikon nor on your RZ so why are you asking???
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 18, 2013, 02:49:38 am
Hi Yair,

I still have my Mamiya 645 AFDII camera that's why.

So what is your answer concerning my question. Would a old Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens produce a higher resolution image over the entire frame for landscape photography compared to the Schneider 55mm LS lens due to your comment that the Schneider 55mm LS lens is designed for portraiture.

Its a simple question.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 18, 2013, 03:18:40 am
Hi Yair,

I still have my Mamiya 645 AFDII camera that's why.

So what is your answer concerning my question. Would a old Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens produce a higher resolution image over the entire frame for landscape photography compared to the Schneider 55mm LS lens due to your comment that the Schneider 55mm LS lens is designed for portraiture.

Its a simple question.

Cheers

Simon

Well the simple answer is no, but your AFDII won't work with the LS so you'll have to stick with the Bay option;-)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 18, 2013, 07:56:25 am
:: Yaha and Steve

Hmm, I can't really follow your idea that a lens with lower out-of-center resolution would be designed or especially suitable for portrait shooting because this assumes that the object (esp. the head of the person) is quite exactly in the center of the image.

Enclosed two samples by Contax N 50f1.4 at open aperture with object out of center and good sharpness.
How should such images in sufficient sharpness be possible with the Schneider 55 lens?


I have not commented in reference to the 55mm being "intended" for portraiture. I am in agreement - in general - that lenses are often produced with (subtly) specific intents that users are unaware of. However, irrespective of the MTF Charts, the image samples I provided don't really correspond with your image samples, as in my examples the distance to subject was much closer than in yours, which would produce a greater impact from lens curvature.

If you filled the frame with someone's face, then yes, the edges of that person's face would be significantly less sharp than the center with the Hasselblad 60 and to a lesser, but similar degree with the Schneider 55. But in the examples you provide, the sharpness at the edges would be improved from my examples if shot with the same Hasselblad and Schneider lenses.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 18, 2013, 09:40:27 am
I shot both the 55LS  , 55mm Mamiya and the Schneider 60 XL on a tech cam as well , which I consider maybe the sharpest tech lens I have shot to date. The differences are there as the Schneider 60 is extremely sharp but the 55LS is very close to it but more important has a much nicer look to the images as well as the 80 and 110 LS lenses. Irrespective of the leaf shutter in the LS lenses I found the color tonality and smoothness of these lenses to be extremely nice and I really have some great images from them in landscape, fashion and other work that I really like the look of that glass over even the Schneider 60 XL ( little clinical looking) and much nicer than the Mamiya 55 although sharp but boring look to it. Frankly if I was purchasing again I would only buy the LS glass regardless of price, they look to those lenses is something I really like irrespective of MTF charts which lets face it is only a small part of the lens story. Personally I'll take a look lens anyday over anything else. Not saying I did not love the Schneider 60 XL tech lens which I loved but I feel the 55LS has a nicer smoother look to it.

Now I will admit I had a very good copy of the 55ls and the best of three that I tested but its a really nice focal length on a FF sensor. I tested it with both the IQ 180 and IQ 160
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 18, 2013, 04:20:36 pm
Hi,

I think you miss out a bit.

The "problem" the Schneider has is that the field is wavy. So the plane of best focus move back and forth when you move across the film plane. So the area where the lens looses MTF the loss is mostly (read entirely) attributable to small amount of defocus. If you place you main subject in the zone having the lowest MTF and focus on your subject MTF will be better than in the charts. Background will be out of focus anyway.

Best regards
Erik


IF this is the case focus and recompose is going to be even more of an issue. Center focus point limitation combined with a focus plane that you say is not flat.
That would make the lens less appropriate for fashion.
Less of an issue stopped down, but would add to the focus and recompose issue of shorter focal lengths.
Hasselbad for example uses true focus to help deal with this issue and true focus II takes into account focus plane curvature
if it is present in the lens.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 18, 2013, 05:01:20 pm


Hi Henrik -

I agree - there is no reason to cast older lenses in a negative light, there are many strong performers and good glass is good glass. The one area where newer lenses usually outperform is with respect to chromatic aberration, and of course high sync speeds with certain leaf shutters, etc.

But back to the Schneider 55mm and its wavy charts. We compared this lens against the Hasselblad 60mm/3.5 CB Lens. While they appear equally sharp (and equally focused) in the center, the edges are a different story. All 4 edges look equally similar wit each lens. Draw your own conclusions. Raws are available upon request.

This isn't to make any point about old vs new (I'm in favor of both - if they are both good), other than a response to the hand wringing over the charts.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration




Chris as I said before (to the "surprise" of some people) the 55mm was designed predominantly as a fast portrait lens for relative close distances. This is the manufacturer's description (the same one I happen to work for...): Minimal distortion wide angle design, provides a normal look, great for editorial portraits and on location lifestyle photography

....
Yair


From the Phase One website:
Quote
55mm LS f/2.8
A preferred choice for on location fashion photographers using fill-in flash.
With its extreme fast flash sync capabilities this lens makes it easy to balance flash and daylight and let's you create stunning images.

Regarding the wavy MTF chart with a really deep dip and then recovery at the edges.. well edge resolution is OK, it's more of an issue in the ring that the deep dip in the MTF graph
corresponds too.

Here is pretty much where the ring falls. This is an approximation based on the graphs. Not intended to be an definative argument, but to illustrate the issue
of a "roller coaster" MTF curve. Something to look for when test the lens and comparing to the far less expensive alternatives.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8050/8392497957_9aee658ef3_o.jpg)
Full frame sensor such as iq180 or p65+

There are plenty of compositions where important features will fall into this lower sharpness ring.

Also regarding the editorial and lifestyle (fashion) photography attribution lets see where this falls in a magazine double page:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8392497947_fdace363fa_o.jpg)
Full frame with a two 5:4 magazine pages side by side crop.

Here one can see that there is a significant area that falls into the deep dip of the MTF chart.

It's actually even more of a composition issue if you take into account the gutter in between the two
pages in the magazine.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8476/8392497939_1fbf3f75be_o.jpg)
Brown area indicated the gutter in the center of the opened up magazine.
Taking into account the gutter ones compositions tend to move more to the left for the left page and more to the right for the right page.
This increases the likely hood of important features being in the "deep dip"

With a crop sensor 33x44 it's less of an issue.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8360/8392497937_0585793615_o.jpg)
Full frame with 33x44 crop.

Fall off at the very corners is quite different from falloff nearer the center and then contrasted with sharper corners.
Lower sharpness areas are more apparent when they have higher sharpness areas on both sides.

This is hardly what one should expect from a $ 4,290 lens with a Schneider logo on the barrel.

Now that said images can be quite pleasing even with quite strong sharpness falloff, even dramatic falloff can be quite stylish
however I think one would prefer to blur in post rather than be stuck with it.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 18, 2013, 11:50:23 pm
ROFFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!

From the Phase One website:
Regarding the wavy MTF chart with a really deep dip and then recovery at the edges.. well edge resolution is OK, it's more of an issue in the ring that the deep dip in the MTF graph
corresponds too.

Here is pretty much where the ring falls. This is an approximation based on the graphs. Not intended to be an definative argument, but to illustrate the issue
of a "roller coaster" MTF curve. Something to look for when test the lens and comparing to the far less expensive alternatives.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8050/8392497957_9aee658ef3_o.jpg)
Full frame sensor such as iq180 or p65+

There are plenty of compositions where important features will fall into this lower sharpness ring.

Also regarding the editorial and lifestyle (fashion) photography attribution lets see where this falls in a magazine double page:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8392497947_fdace363fa_o.jpg)
Full frame with a two 5:4 magazine pages side by side crop.

Here one can see that there is a significant area that falls into the deep dip of the MTF chart.

It's actually even more of a composition issue if you take into account the gutter in between the two
pages in the magazine.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8476/8392497939_1fbf3f75be_o.jpg)
Brown area indicated the gutter in the center of the opened up magazine.
Taking into account the gutter ones compositions tend to move more to the left for the left page and more to the right for the right page.
This increases the likely hood of important features being in the "deep dip"

With a crop sensor 33x44 it's less of an issue.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8360/8392497937_0585793615_o.jpg)
Full frame with 33x44 crop.

Fall off at the very corners is quite different from falloff nearer the center and then contrasted with sharper corners.
Lower sharpness areas are more apparent when they have higher sharpness areas on both sides.

This is hardly what one should expect from a $ 4,290 lens with a Schneider logo on the barrel.

Now that said images can be quite pleasing even with quite strong sharpness falloff, even dramatic falloff can be quite stylish
however I think one would prefer to blur in post rather than be stuck with it.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 19, 2013, 12:01:01 am
(...wiping blown snot from iPhone...)

Could Steve Doug or anyone with a LS55 please post a sample file image taken with the lens so we can
 finally put this issue to rest ?!

That last post was gold ! Time to start a 'Best Of Fred' thread ;-)


From the Phase One website:
Regarding the wavy MTF chart with a really deep dip and then recovery at the edges.. well edge resolution is OK, it's more of an issue in the ring that the deep dip in the MTF graph
corresponds too.

Here is pretty much where the ring falls. This is an approximation based on the graphs. Not intended to be an definative argument, but to illustrate the issue
of a "roller coaster" MTF curve. Something to look for when test the lens and comparing to the far less expensive alternatives.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8050/8392497957_9aee658ef3_o.jpg)
Full frame sensor such as iq180 or p65+

There are plenty of compositions where important features will fall into this lower sharpness ring.

Also regarding the editorial and lifestyle (fashion) photography attribution lets see where this falls in a magazine double page:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8392497947_fdace363fa_o.jpg)
Full frame with a two 5:4 magazine pages side by side crop.

Here one can see that there is a significant area that falls into the deep dip of the MTF chart.

It's actually even more of a composition issue if you take into account the gutter in between the two
pages in the magazine.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8476/8392497939_1fbf3f75be_o.jpg)
Brown area indicated the gutter in the center of the opened up magazine.
Taking into account the gutter ones compositions tend to move more to the left for the left page and more to the right for the right page.
This increases the likely hood of important features being in the "deep dip"

With a crop sensor 33x44 it's less of an issue.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8360/8392497937_0585793615_o.jpg)
Full frame with 33x44 crop.

Fall off at the very corners is quite different from falloff nearer the center and then contrasted with sharper corners.
Lower sharpness areas are more apparent when they have higher sharpness areas on both sides.

This is hardly what one should expect from a $ 4,290 lens with a Schneider logo on the barrel.

Now that said images can be quite pleasing even with quite strong sharpness falloff, even dramatic falloff can be quite stylish
however I think one would prefer to blur in post rather than be stuck with it.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 19, 2013, 12:05:44 am
How did I let this one slip by ?!?!

ROTMFFLMMFAO !!!!

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

IF this is the case focus and recompose is going to be even more of an issue. Center focus point limitation combined with a focus plane that you say is not flat.
That would make the lens less appropriate for fashion
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 19, 2013, 11:17:21 pm
Glad you found this entertaining, but I can understand why you would not find it relevant as your portfolio
is made up of landscape, cityscape and giant heavy machinery (rather nice by the way).... none shot with very shallow depth of field.
Keeping a models eyelashes in focus with razor shallow depth is something rather important to those that need it.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 20, 2013, 02:15:04 pm

Now I will admit I had a very good copy of the 55ls and the best of three that I tested but its a really nice focal length on a FF sensor. I tested it with both the IQ 180 and IQ 160

Well that doesn't say much for the Schneider logo being a guarantee of quality control if there are discernible quality differences.
One would expect $ 4,290 lenses to not have differences apparent enough to be visable in simple user testing.

I'm sure the MTF graph was made with a good copy... I wonder what the other two lenses MTF would look like if the photographer could see the difference by eye.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 20, 2013, 03:10:45 pm
Chris as I said before (to the "surprise" of some people) the 55mm was designed predominantly as a fast portrait lens for relative close distances. This is the manufacturer's description (the same one I happen to work for...): Minimal distortion wide angle design, provides a normal look, great for editorial portraits and on location lifestyle photography

Yair

So a Phase One photographer who needs to shoot with a 33x44 sensor and wants a normal lens angle of view has to shoot with a lens designed for portrait and lifestyle.
How silly is that?
Same thing goes for the owner of a full frame MF back that want's to shoot architecture with a slightly wide angle lens.

Why in the hell would Phase One / Mamiya / Schneider develop a normal lens for 33x44 backs that is not designed as a general purpose lens?

I think it's more about the 55LS being a bit of a dog and giving it the lifestyle and "editorial portrait" attribution because that stuff is predominantly published smaller,
unlike landscape and architecture.

Regarding descriptions the old non LS Mamiya 55 2.8 is described as a general purpose lens.

Quote
provides sharp images up to infinity and with minimal perspective change, produces the most natural image of all wide angle lenses.
Adapts to a wide range of situations from general photography to scenics.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8398633201_5504fda9dc_o.png)

The original Mamiya is a 2.8 so still has shallow depth of field and really apart from the leaf shutter there is nothing wrong about it
for shooting "editorial portraits" or "lifestyle".

However I think that especially for file style a fast 24-70mm 2.8 on a 6 to 10 fps dslr would be a far better choice even if overpowering the sun or fill in flash is needed.

The Canon 24-70 II is quite a step forward.

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/cameras/lenses/EF_24to70_LII/sampleimg/ef_24-70_tele_mtf.gif)

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/cameras/lenses/EF_24to70_LII/sampleimg/ef_24-70_wide_mtf.gif)

Here is a good example of it wide open and showing nice bokeh.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bims2008/8351883090/sizes/l/in/pool-2121875@N22/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bims2008/8351883090/sizes/l/in/pool-2121875@N22/)

The 55mm 2.8 does not look to good when compared:
(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Schneider-MTF-039-750x1024.jpg)

In the Canon graph the thin continuous lines corresponds to 30 cycles. Blue is wide open and black is at f8
In the Phase One/Schneider graph the middle line corresponds to 30 cycles.

Also keep in mind that when comparing a 36mm sensor width with a 44mm sensor witch you will need to enlarge the 36mm image a bit more.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8074/8400163300_79bc73ea47_m.jpg)

Even with that in mind the modern Canon zoom hold up well against the older 55mm 2.8 LS.

Canon 24-70mm 2.8 II $2,299
Phase Schneider 55 2.8 LS $ 4,290

Even the cheap ass Canon 50mm 1.8 holds up quite well for a $ 150 lens.

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/lens/ef_50_18mtf.gif)

Actually at f8 the 30 cycle line is quite remarkable. Sharp dropoff in the very corners, but no big dip roller coaster graph.

And before a riot starts ... I'm not suggesting anyone go out and buy the 50mm 1.8 II....



 
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 20, 2013, 03:21:18 pm
Actually the corner sharpness of the Schneider 55 of Steves pic also does not look convincing to me.

For comparison a stiched image by 5D2 + Mirex + the Zeiss Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE 16mm shifted upwards plus 12mm downwards and two crops at 2/3 image radius (where the MTF drop of the Schneider would be) and at the corner of 16mm shift.

The corner of the 16mm shift refers to an image circle of 72 mm which is already beyond the 645 image circle of 67mm (sensor 54x40mm).

Steve's test is hardly representative of that a wide angle is used for. I don't think map repro and close focus is a main stay of
moderate wide angle lenses. Corner resolution can change quite significantly when focusing very close...

An more representative test would be at larger distance and using several ISO resolution test charts. Center/midframe/corner.

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 21, 2013, 03:48:20 pm
(...wiping blown snot from iPhone...)

Could Steve Doug or anyone with a LS55 please post a sample file image taken with the lens so we can
 finally put this issue to rest ?!

That last post was gold ! Time to start a 'Best Of Fred' thread ;-)

Gladly.

Here is an f/5.6 handheld shot with the 55LS at a wedding in Upstate New York I shot earlier in the year. I've taken the liberty of overlaying Fred's chart of where the 55LS shows "quite strong sharpness falloff".

These are 100% crops (default sharpening) from a 60mp back, so printed at 240dpi the print would be nearly 40" long without any upsampling.

You'll have to forgive FredBGG. Since he does not own or shoot with a 55LS all he make his evaluation with is an MTF chart which can be very misleading, especially when comparing MTFs made with different techniques, by different manufacturers, many years apart. See again some resources that explain what you can and can't tell from an MTF curve:

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/55LS-wedding-shot-small.jpg)
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/1.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/2.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/3.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/4.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/5.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/6.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/7.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/8.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/9.jpg)(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/10.jpg)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 21, 2013, 03:52:52 pm
Doug I bet that the whiff of cloud at the top left is soft as putty ;)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 21, 2013, 04:21:39 pm
Doug I bet that the whiff of cloud at the top left is soft as putty ;)

Not as soft as the whiffs of cloud in this other 55LS shot I have:

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/11.jpg)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 21, 2013, 04:32:26 pm
So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Before spending the $$$ I'd suggest working with a dealer than can provide you both lenses to test for your own evaluation.

The Mamiya 55AF lens is a good option if budget is a consideration and you don't need a leaf shutter and you don't want to use a tech camera (a Schneider 47XL or 60XL would outperform either lens - and just about any other lens you could compare them to).

Such range of options is one benefit of having the DF/DF+ platform be compatible with a huge range of glass, old and new.

Hopefully as my sample image illustrates the 55LS is no slouch, in fact, quite the opposite; it is a very sharp lens.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 21, 2013, 04:34:52 pm
:: Yaha and Steve

Hmm, I can't really follow your idea that a lens with lower out-of-center resolution would be designed or especially suitable for portrait shooting because this assumes that the object (esp. the head of the person) is quite exactly in the center of the image.

Enclosed two samples by Contax N 50f1.4 at open aperture with object out of center and good sharpness.
How should such images in sufficient sharpness be possible with the Schneider 55 lens?

Hopefully my sample image posted above shows that Fred's evaluation of the sharpness distribution of this lens (based on his reading of the MTF curves) is simply incorrect. This is the danger of individuals posting what amounts to a strongly negative review of a lens they don't have experience on based on charts and graphs rather than pictures.

Also note that my sample image was taken with a camera three times higher in resolution than the sample images you posted. Higher resolution strains the lens more, and, as you can see the 55LS holds up to the strain very well.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 21, 2013, 04:48:17 pm
Hi Doug,

Thanks for responding to my question and also the sample image in a professional and polite manner not like some.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Don Libby on January 21, 2013, 04:48:43 pm
Hi Yair and Doug,

So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Cheers

Simon

Simon - I've stayed away from this because I feel it's degraded into a who's wiener is larger and who can complain the most about everything and anything dealing with digital medium format post.

To answer your question directly and not speaking for either Yair or Doug (both who's opinion I respect).  I recently got a Schneider 55mm LS lens spending 2-months in the Jackson Hole area this fall.  Based on what I've seen using the 55 with a DF and IQ160 I'd say this makes a very good high quality landscape lens.

I don't have images to share at the moment as I'm not on a computer which have them; I have however posted several images on out blog, just looks backwards to September/October 2012 for them.  I'll be in a better position tomorrow and will post one or two here.

 Don
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 21, 2013, 05:02:02 pm
I don't have images to share at the moment as I'm not on a computer which have them; I have however posted several images on out blog, just looks backwards to September/October 2012 for them.  I'll be in a better position tomorrow and will post one or two here.

Don I hope you don't mind me linking to your image found here (http://www.ironcreekphotographyblog.com/):

This is a beautiful image. It has been such a pleasure to watch here, on GetDPI, and on your blog, as your work has changed and a distinctive style has emerged. I realized recently that I joined this forum in 2007, which makes nearly 6 years I've been watching as some of my favorite photographers and people post, discuss, learn, and otherwise love photography. Given my age that is a significant portion of my adult life.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t8sVyt10Kps/ULehPnlzwUI/AAAAAAAAF7I/yHF3EeZqV9I/s1600/Working9-20-2012_Red+Creek.jpg)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Don Libby on January 21, 2013, 05:14:00 pm
Don I hope you don't mind me linking to your image found here (http://www.ironcreekphotographyblog.com/):

This is a beautiful image. It has been such a pleasure to watch here, on GetDPI, and on your blog, as your work has changed and a distinctive style has emerged. I realized recently that I joined this forum in 2007, which makes nearly 6 years I've been watching as some of my favorite photographers and people post, discuss, learn, and otherwise love photography. Given my age that is a significant portion of my adult life.


Thank you Doug you humble me with your words.

The image Doug posted was taken in Jackson Hole WY is past Fall with the crappy (evil grin) 55LS.
 ;D
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 21, 2013, 05:41:37 pm
Simon let us know if you would like to play with some RAW files. If a lens is designed predominantly for certain applications this does not necessarily mean it won't perform well in other areas...

© me, Credo 60 on 645DF+
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 21, 2013, 05:56:09 pm
Hi Don,

Lovely image the Autumn leaves are superb.

Yair thanks for the offer.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 21, 2013, 07:43:04 pm
Thanks for the compliment about my work :)

Looking at MTF graphs for canon lenses, why would anyone even bother with Nikon ;) Looking at some of the sample files posted from Doug and others it's pretty obvious the LAST thing the LS 55 is a dog - the images speak for themselves and it's pretty clear how the lens passed through Schneider quality control.

Listening to theories about viewfinder focusing problems with model eyelashes and off center blur from tiny enlargements in a magazine spread (from razor sharp 80MP images at 100% magnification) is wildly entertaining !!  :-*  :-*

I'm sure most of your comments are directed at some of the dealers on this forum and you probably get a kick out of wry-ling them up, but I think you're doing a disservice to many readers by constantly bashing medium format and specifically phase one. 35mm isn't for everyone, it really isn't. I hate the format. Not out of snobbery, I just can't compose an image with one, not for jack. I have really shitty eyesight and wear contacts with maximum correction for astigmatism. I focus with the magnifying hood (+diopter) on the hassy, then put on my reading glasses so that I can compose the image on the ground glass. I hate the 35mm format's aspect ratio, it just sucks, no matter what any MTF graph might say. While some may like the format for publication, no matter how wide a lens you get you're always cropping the vertical - it's dreadful. I need space, and lots of it, and it's why I shoot SQUARE. I'm an artist and I love the square and if black and white photography wouldn't exist I would be drawing or painting gigantic SQUARES :)  I once considered a Fuji 680... until I saw one for real. It's a brick, and I can't imagine ever mountaineering with one, or stuffing one in my backpack, or taking one with me on my bike.

The technical cameras made by arca swiss cambo and alpa are fantastic cameras, as are the medium format digital backs made by Phase One. They're not crap - FAR from it, and neither are their lenses. While I find your comments very entertaining - you're doing a disservice to all the other readers who might be considering MFD with your fuzzy math. Not everyone is a fashion or wedding photographer. If there is a valid criticism to the format it's the astronomical cost of entry that makes it prohibitively expensive for artists like me to get into, and that's a damn shame.


Paul


So a Phase One photographer who needs to shoot with a 33x44 sensor and wants a normal lens angle of view has to shoot with a lens designed for portrait and lifestyle.
How silly is that?
Same thing goes for the owner of a full frame MF back that want's to shoot architecture with a slightly wide angle lens.

Why in the hell would Phase One / Mamiya / Schneider develop a normal lens for 33x44 backs that is not designed as a general purpose lens?

I think it's more about the 55LS being a bit of a dog and giving it the lifestyle and "editorial portrait" attribution because that stuff is predominantly published smaller,
unlike landscape and architecture.

Regarding descriptions the old non LS Mamiya 55 2.8 is described as a general purpose lens.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8398633201_5504fda9dc_o.png)

The original Mamiya is a 2.8 so still has shallow depth of field and really apart from the leaf shutter there is nothing wrong about it
for shooting "editorial portraits" or "lifestyle".

However I think that especially for file style a fast 24-70mm 2.8 on a 6 to 10 fps dslr would be a far better choice even if overpowering the sun or fill in flash is needed.

The Canon 24-70 II is quite a step forward.

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/cameras/lenses/EF_24to70_LII/sampleimg/ef_24-70_tele_mtf.gif)

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/cameras/lenses/EF_24to70_LII/sampleimg/ef_24-70_wide_mtf.gif)

Here is a good example of it wide open and showing nice bokeh.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bims2008/8351883090/sizes/l/in/pool-2121875@N22/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bims2008/8351883090/sizes/l/in/pool-2121875@N22/)

The 55mm 2.8 does not look to good when compared:
(https://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Schneider-MTF-039-750x1024.jpg)

In the Canon graph the thin continuous lines corresponds to 30 cycles. Blue is wide open and black is at f8
In the Phase One/Schneider graph the middle line corresponds to 30 cycles.

Also keep in mind that when comparing a 36mm sensor width with a 44mm sensor witch you will need to enlarge the 36mm image a bit more.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8074/8400163300_79bc73ea47_m.jpg)

Even with that in mind the modern Canon zoom hold up well against the older 55mm 2.8 LS.

Canon 24-70mm 2.8 II $2,299
Phase Schneider 55 2.8 LS $ 4,290

Even the cheap ass Canon 50mm 1.8 holds up quite well for a $ 150 lens.

(http://www.usa.canon.com/CUSA/assets/app/images/lens/ef_50_18mtf.gif)

Actually at f8 the 30 cycle line is quite remarkable. Sharp dropoff in the very corners, but no big dip roller coaster graph.

And before a riot starts ... I'm not suggesting anyone go out and buy the 50mm 1.8 II....



 
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 21, 2013, 08:42:22 pm
Paul if your seriously interested in the 55LS lens I have plenty of images shot with the p40 and IQ 160 that PROVE the REAL reality how good this lens really is . I will always help those that want the truth in these things otherwise any posted image here is frankly just worthless and a waste of my time to even post. It will always suck since it has Phases name on it and we all know that by now. Send me a e-mail I have many posted already but I'm busy taking care of a family member once again so I'm limited on my time on the forums.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 21, 2013, 09:54:33 pm
Hi Doug,

Thanks for sharing! Nice shot, by the way. I also like that you have good detail on the dark parts of the image, a few of the samples posted seemed to have very little detail in the blacks.

Which back were you using, P65+?

To my surprise I think I see some problems with sharpness on a single crop, left one enclosed below. That is well outside the red circle. The crops on the red circle are very sharp in my view.

Getting back to the MTF curves, I'm actually a bit curious. I don't think that lens is seriously bad, but the 60 lp/mm actually drops to near zero value. On the other hand, 40 lp/mm is probably quite OK. We are talking about a large sensor. The 40 lp/mm on the P65+ (?) would correspond to someting like 60-80 lp/mm on 135, depending on your crop.

I have not seen any MTF plots on Canon lenses at 40/60/80 lp/mm so I cannot speculate on that.

I have recently tested a Sonnar 150/4 at f/8 compared with some Sony Alpha Zooms. These lenses are at medium telephoto range where well designed lenses are very good and on axis.

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Images/Zeissness_3/F8/Imatest_small.png)

The plots indicate that good lenses still transfer decent contrast (20%) at say 80 lp/mm. But 80 lp/mm really correspond to something like 45 lp/mm on full frame (depending on crop) where the Schneider would still have say 35-45% MTF at the weakest point.

Also, it would be my theory that the drop at 22 mm on the Schneider would be an issue with wavy field, so just putting focus in that area would improve rendition. So would you put focus on say eye-lashes in that are and focus on the lashes, MTF would improve (be better than in chart) in that zone. Stopping down more may also be helpful.

Best regards
Erik



Gladly.

Here is an f/5.6 handheld shot with the 55LS at a wedding in Upstate New York I shot earlier in the year. I've taken the liberty of overlaying Fred's chart of where the 55LS shows "quite strong sharpness falloff".

These are 100% crops (default sharpening) from a 60mp back, so printed at 240dpi the print would be nearly 40" long without any upsampling.

You'll have to forgive FredBGG. Since he does not own or shoot with a 55LS all he make his evaluation with is an MTF chart which can be very misleading, especially when comparing MTFs made with different techniques, by different manufacturers, many years apart. See again some resources that explain what you can and can't tell from an MTF curve:
  • http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf (http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf)
  • http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mtf.htm


Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 21, 2013, 11:01:03 pm
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/55LS-wedding-shot-small.jpg)

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/3.jpg)
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/6.jpg)
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/8.jpg)
(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/6.jpg)

Doesn't look either natural or sharp to me. (not a creative critique... the photo is a fun image  :))
Colors and contrast look punched up. Eyeballs are blueish, irises are exageratedly dark (even the fair hired girl and lady), wedding dress, and white shirts. Overall tonality is just unnatural.
Blown out highlights and crunched blacks. This kind of exaggerated contrast produces apparent sharpness.

I find the fine detail looks unnatural in both the grass and hair. Even softer less contrasty detail can look far more natural and descriptive than that.

For example look at this image that is shot with the 80mm 2.8 LS despite it being shot wide open.

Image URL http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/full961.jpg (http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/full961.jpg)
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/15641-anyone-got-phase-110mm-schneider-ls-lens-yet.html (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/15641-anyone-got-phase-110mm-schneider-ls-lens-yet.html)

Corner crop
Image URL http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/lcentercrop961.jpg (http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/lcentercrop961.jpg)

Way more natural looking, far more descriptive despite the slight flare due to the crop being corner frame and shot wide open rather than at f5.6.

Also look at these crops (same size in frame as Doug's crops) from a Hasselblad image.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8361/8404441546_c72d3d6ea2_b.jpg)

Far more natural rendering and you can even see dust particles on the subject.

But lets also look at a Canon 17mm lens infront of a Leaf 80MP sensor and HCam:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8514/8403524875_3d8bd00c00_b.jpg)

Crops:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8227/8403524901_a346a0ddda_b.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8403524797_16501d39a1_b.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8403524763_160f1d9273_b.jpg)
In this last one look at how well and NATURALLY the flowers in the windows are described, compared to the flowers in the grass.

I think it's quite remarkable that an ultra wide angle Canon ultra wide angle 17mm  Tilt shift lens that costs $ 2,180 can out preform a fixed moderate wideangle (normal lens for an IQ140) 55mm "Schneider" lens that costs $ 4,290.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 21, 2013, 11:10:08 pm
Hello,

Firstly I am not trying to be a s...t stirring here but due to the fact that the Mamiya 645 C 55mm F2.8N has an extra element in its configuration would it be a sharper lens overall especially in the far corners of the image.

It would be interesting to compare it against the new 55LS lens.

I know that my Mamiya 50mm F4.0 shift lens is very sharp from edge to edge.

Ciao

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 21, 2013, 11:42:40 pm
Don I hope you don't mind me linking to your image found here (http://www.ironcreekphotographyblog.com/):

This is a beautiful image. It has been such a pleasure to watch here, on GetDPI, and on your blog, as your work has changed and a distinctive style has emerged. I realized recently that I joined this forum in 2007, which makes nearly 6 years I've been watching as some of my favorite photographers and people post, discuss, learn, and otherwise love photography. Given my age that is a significant portion of my adult life.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t8sVyt10Kps/ULehPnlzwUI/AAAAAAAAF7I/yHF3EeZqV9I/s1600/Working9-20-2012_Red+Creek.jpg)


Lovely image. Wonderful manipulation of color while still portraying the natural beauty of the place. A very nice interpretation.
In particular how far you have gone with the color and contrast while maintaining a earthly nature to the image.
as is the other picture on the same page taken with the Canon zoom. A lens does not have to be particularly good to produce
a beautiful image if the photographer is skilled and the location is beautiful.

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 12:02:13 am
Hi,

I have not found any MTF of the 55, but:
"The Mamiya 55 mm f/2.8 AF lens, which I purchased used, at first did not impress me all that much, because I was looking at it from the perspective of performance at 5.6 and 8. However after testing a manual focus f/2.8 45 mm N lens, and finding is much worse, I went back for another two rounds of testing and decided that with only one corner of the 55 being noticeably weak at f/8, and that corner luckily being the top right with the camera in horizontal position, that this 55 was actually excellent. When the camera is in either vertical or horizontal position, the weak corner is always at the top, and thus more likely to be filled with subject matter that will not reveal a problem (e.g. sky). Besides, the 55 is incredible at f/11 and up. So chalk up one success out of one lens tried. The sample is too small to tell, but one success out of one is a much better sign than one failure out of one. Also, other photographers' comments on this lens have been quite complementary. Oh — I almost forgot. There was one other 55 AF, which a friend tested and showed me the results: it was a good one also. Although I did not see a test shot which revealed the performance of all four corners, the behavior in two of the four corners and throughout most of the rest of the frame was superb at f/8. So without knowing about the two top corners at f/8 with that lens, I'll go out on a limb and call that two for two — an even better sign for this design."

From this article, worth reading: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html

Best regards
Erik


Hello,

Firstly I am not trying to be a s...t stirring here but due to the fact that the Mamiya 645 C 55mm F2.8N has an extra element in its configuration would it be a sharper lens overall especially in the far corners of the image.

It would be interesting to compare it against the new 55LS lens.

I know that my Mamiya 50mm F4.0 shift lens is very sharp from edge to edge.

Ciao

Simon
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 01:14:56 am
Hi,

In part I agree with FredBG. But, this is in my view one of the better wedding pictures posted and I actually like the rendition of shadow detail.

The part I agree with FredBG on is that fine detail reproduction is odd. What ISO was used?

The grass looks good to me, I see some aliasing but otherwise just fine. The aliasing indicates that lens outresolves sensor (OK has > 20% MTF at Nyquist).

Could it be a combination of noise reduction and sharpening in the darks.

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/6.jpg)

In the picture above the hair of the young lady shows some moiré, that indicates that there is detail in the image the sensor cannot resolve, so lower frequency artifacts are shown instead. The face eye and eybrows don't show a typical sharp noise pattern, so I guess some noise reduction is in play and some sharpening. That may all be default in raw converter.

Best regards
Erik


Doesn't look either natural or sharp to me. (not a creative critique... the photo is a fun image  :))
Colors and contrast look punched up. Eyeballs are blueish, irises are exageratedly dark (even the fair hired girl and lady), wedding dress, and white shirts. Overall tonality is just unnatural.
Blown out highlights and crunched blacks. This kind of exaggerated contrast produces apparent sharpness.

I find the fine detail looks unnatural in both the grass and hair. Even softer less contrasty detail can look far more natural and descriptive than that.


Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: henrikfoto on January 22, 2013, 02:45:07 am
I agree with Fred!
The details shown in the wedding-photo are not impressing.
I can't see any loss of sharpness along the "Fred-Ring", but on the other hand
it would be very hard to see in this picture. Maybe it was shot in iso 200?

Henrik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 05:11:44 am
Sorry Luke,

Can you explain?

Best regards
Erik
Gosh, there are some suspect sample images posted here.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 07:16:46 am
Sorry for mixing up the names!

Best regards
Erik

Erik, not sure who Luke is but will I do?

Let's just say it never ceases to amaze me how often images are posted to prove a point only to have them do quite the opposite. The knowledge, skill and giving nature of many folk here is beyond question but at times I have to wonder why they then post the images they do. No names, no pack-drill ;-)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 22, 2013, 08:02:43 am
Simon: the 50mm is good including for 60/80mp and including a few mm of shift. It shows much more chromatic abberation than the 55LS which is a pet peeve of mine. Buy it's also a lens worth trying out as you make your decision which tools are best for you.

Fred: sorry you don't like my image styling. The point is the pixels/lens is sharp so if someone prefers a different level of edge contrast or saturation or a different s curve they are welcome to make it.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 22, 2013, 08:04:39 am
But lets also look at a Canon 17mm lens infront of a Leaf 80MP sensor and HCam:
[...]
In this last one look at how well and NATURALLY the flowers in the windows are described, compared to the flowers in the grass.

Hi Fred,

The sharpening is horrible, IMHO. It distracts immensely from any quality that the lens has to offer, and makes a quality assessment virually impossible. I'm surprised it is used as an example.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 22, 2013, 08:19:03 am
Fred: sorry you don't like my image styling. The point is the pixels/lens is sharp so if someone prefers a different level of edge contrast or saturation or a different s curve they are welcome to make it.

Hi Doug,

I agree, personal processing preference is a different subject all together. Focusing on that, only distracts from the original topic.

What some people (not you) seem to be confused about is that a dip in an MTF curve doesn't mean that strict resolution is lacking, but rather the contrast transfer. That will mean that specific spatial frequencies (= contrast of certain feature sizes) with low contrast will not be imaged as vividly as other spatial frequencies. Higher contrast features with that same spatial frequency will still be resolved, but somewhat less obvious.

Since the highest spatial frequencies (approaching Nyquist) will have a low contrast transfer by definition, it is only there that total loss of low contrast detail will occur and will be easy to spot visually as well (think extreme corners, with shift, or as in the case of the 55mm lens, a zone at roughly 65mm from the center). Higher contrast highest spatial frequency detail will still be resolved in those areas.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 22, 2013, 09:22:38 am
This is my first post on LL.  I'm a WORKING magazine and commercial photographer.  This is my perspective on a few matters.

The dealers on LL all love photography.  If Doug left DT I would have to send a few boys to break his lens.  He's a great photographer and a fantastic person.  I'm not a photo techie. But I'm wise enough to know that creativity and how you get to a creative image takes quite a bit of technique.  Some of which I have the time to learn about.  When I don't I simply pick up the phone and call Dave G. or Doug P. They are resources.  They are just as important to my photography CAREER as my P40+ (soon to be updated to a IQ160) and Schnieder glass.

In regards to the Schneider LS 55mm.  It's a workhorse lens. Tack sharp. Please don't sell yourself short by not having this lens in your working kit.   I shoot it all the time at 2.8 (recomposing for off center composition) at 1/1600 with profoto strobes. (Sorry Fred I don't have time and my clients don't  either while I dick  around  with little portable canon/nikon speedlites)  and find it to be crisp.  All those charts and graphs that Fred is putting up just don't stand up to real world photography.  If you want to see for YOURSELF,  then call a dealer.  They will let you shoot a few test frames.  Take the files home on a CF and see for yourself.  FYI.  The photo editors I work with Steve Fine (Sports Illustrated), Debbe Edelstein (People Magazine) never complain about my 55mm LS being blurry....

I read the posts of LL to learn from many respected photographers like Bcooter, D Libby, G Man., Ellis V,  those very cool landscape and architectural shooters in Great Britain, and many others.   I don't shoot landscapes, but the guys on this forum who do leave me breathless and inspired.  They help inform my vision as portrait photographer.  This photography business is damn hard.  Assignments are not guaranteed.  We should be helping uplift the photography community.  And to be frank it's quite sad when FRED posts such negativity.  How can you critical of a 55mm LS, when you have never used the lens?  If you have used the lens then please post YOUR images and not some Climate denier chart.....WE (the working photographers, fine art photographers and enthused amateurs don't have enough time to waste with you passive - aggressive rants against PHASE One.

A very long time my high school photography instructor James Cooper, told me to choose your lenses like a painter chooses a brush.  It all depends on what you are trying to say in you work. I use my 55mm LS for close-ups, for long shots and whatever.    If it works on an assignment, the editor will call me back for another gig....

Happy snaps,
Jeffery

Here's a recent cover.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 22, 2013, 09:53:12 am
Thanks for sharing! Nice shot, by the way. I also like that you have good detail on the dark parts of the image, a few of the samples posted seemed to have very little detail in the blacks.

Which back were you using, P65+?

To my surprise I think I see some problems with sharpness on a single crop, left one enclosed below. That is well outside the red circle. The crops on the red circle are very sharp in my view.

IQ160 (for other readers: same sensor as P65+)

Is it possible you are simply observing the (very fast) fall off in DOF? The blades in the front of that crop and back of the crop are both outside of the plane of sharpness. The blades that are in the center are, IMO, quite sharp and detailed.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 22, 2013, 10:00:22 am
A very long time my high school photography instructor James Cooper, told me to choose your lenses like a painter chooses a brush.  

Hey Jeffrey, great to see you here. I'd imagine there are quite a few here that would love to see your work down in the islands in one of the image-sharing threads. Moreover I'm sure they'd love to hear some of the background stories behind them.

Probably worth starting a thread at some point about our high school instructors, first photographers we worked for, or whomever else originally inspired us to go into photography. In my case it was Jim Retzel an accomplished bird photographer and high school photo teacher. I'm convinced he was the best instructor of basic photography (DOF, exposure, composition etc) I've ever met. Without him I'm quite convinced I would be a computer programmer or engineer (like my dad). Funny... he never once showed me an MTF chart.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Don Libby on January 22, 2013, 02:29:12 pm
As promised here a few samples of images captured using a DF/IQ160 and the 55 LS lens.

The first image is looking down into a geo pool in Yellowstone Nation Park.  f2.8 1/100 ISO50
The second image was captured from a window ledge looking inside an old abandoned garage in the Jackson Hole area. f/2.8 1/20 ISO400
The third is back inside Yellowstone National Park. f/8 10 seconds ISO50

Hope these help

Don
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 04:01:42 pm
Hi Don,

Thanks for posting excellent images. Unfortunately they don't really help, the problem indicated by the MTF charts may be visible at actual pixels, I'm not sure it is visible at all. It may even not be a problem, except when field is flat, like shooting repro or distant landscape.

Best regards
Erik


As promised here a few samples of images captured using a DF/IQ160 and the 55 LS lens.

The first image is looking down into a geo pool in Yellowstone Nation Park.  f2.8 1/100 ISO50
The second image was captured from a window ledge looking inside an old abandoned garage in the Jackson Hole area. f/2.8 1/20 ISO400
The third is back inside Yellowstone National Park. f/8 10 seconds ISO50

Hope these help

Don
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Don Libby on January 22, 2013, 04:09:27 pm
Thanks Erik - I wanted to do a follow up on my post.


This reminds me in someway of a person trying to lean to swim by reading about it and watching videos of other swimming. 

I've shied from reading charts as in the end I want to see how a particular lens will work for me.  While charts might get you in the right area to begin; the end user can tell to what extent a lens, camera body, tripod, etc will actually work.  Swimming like sex - you can read all you want about the subject however until you actually try the sport out you'll never really know....

Don
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 04:24:39 pm
Hi Don,

As I said I very much appreciate your posting. On the other hand, much of the discussion is about a measured drop of performance within a ring well described by FredBG. From what I read out from the MTF chart I would say that the problem is a bent focal plane. I don't think it would obvious except in situations where focal plane is flat.

So my guess is that the difference in sharpness may be noticeable if you pixel peep a 30x40" print, how do you think posting a small image would proof or disproof a difference?

Personally, I think it is a good lens. Personally I would also guess that good lenses are pretty similar when closed down to f/8. You may pay a premium for good performance at large aperture, smooth focusing, leaf shutter and a nice name.

You can buy a lot cheaper lens if you don't need some of those features.

Finally, I used to say that what matters is what is in front (subject), below (tripod and head) and behind (photographer) the camera.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks Erik - I wanted to do a follow up on my post.


This reminds me in someway of a person trying to lean to swim by reading about it and watching videos of other swimming.  

I've shied from reading charts as in the end I want to see how a particular lens will work for me.  While charts might get you in the right area to begin; the end user can tell to what extent a lens, camera body, tripod, etc will actually work.  Swimming like sex - you can read all you want about the subject however until you actually try the sport out you'll never really know....

Don
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 22, 2013, 04:28:25 pm
Hi Don,

Thanks for posting excellent images. Unfortunately they don't really help, the problem indicated by the MTF charts may be visible at actual pixels, I'm not sure it is visible at all. It may even not be a problem, except when field is flat, like shooting repro or distant landscape.

Best regards
Erik

Erik if you look at the images I've attached a few posts back, while not being too appealing visually (my apology if they offend anyone) they may tell the lens's story better than a chart or at least add something to the story

And as previously offered (on numerous occasions) a real test/demo with a real product is worth more than others' written opinions. You shoot the camera in your own environment and at your own pace and then you can play with the raw files to your heart's content!

Cheers

Yair
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2013, 05:10:12 pm
Hi,

Update: I have looked quite a bit at your images and I simply don't know. May be I don't like Capture One rendition?! Hair detail on girl is good, the building seem to show sharpeing artifacts. I guess you use default settings in C1? adding a central crop may give a reference.

I'm not sure I agree. I have been shooting several lenses prolonged periods without finding out problems. Charts don't tell the full story about a lens but they tell a lot about how it is designed to perform. If you do a well designed test comparing two lenses some issues may become obvious.

Also, please don't forget, I'm the one actually saying that the lens is quite OK, based on the charts. I also say that the charts indicate a bent focal plane, and if I'm right the problem can be solved by focusing correctly for 3D subjects. Landscape or repro may show the weakness.

On the other hand, if I am wrong and the issue is not caused by a bent focal plane the lens would be a bad match for a sensor like P65+ or IQ 160. The P65+ has a pixel pitch of 6 microns, corresponding to 83 lp/mm but the 55 mm lens only transfer a few percent contrast at 60 lp/mm, corresponding to 8 micron pixels.

Now, perfect focus does only exists at infinity or in a very narrow plane. So, most parts of our image will be more or less out of focus. So we have four possible options.

- Important matter is in the sharp zone, no important matter is in the weak zone, everything OK.

- Important matter is in the weak zone and we focus on the important matter, just fine.

- Important matter is in the weak zone and focus is in sharp zone, bad luck.

- We have important matter in both zones, bad luck.

What we also need to keep in mind that MTF curves are about sharpness, in a single plane. They say nothing about out of focus areas, coma, ghosting and a lot of other factors that matter a lot.

On the other hand, lens designs are mainly based on MTF curves. The designer sets up a basic design and a computer optimizes the design, based on design criteria, but the engineers use a lot of MTF data.

Zeiss has a very nice article here about the interpretation of MTF curves: http://www.smt.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_31_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_2_en.pdf

There is a page with images illustrating the different aspects of the MTF curves here:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/CLN31MTF-KurvenBild1/$File/Image_01.jpg
and here:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/GraphikTitelIntern/CLN31MTF-KurvenBild2/$File/Image_02.jpg



Best regards
Erik


Erik if you look at the images I've attached a few posts back, while not being too appealing visually (my apology if they offend anyone) they may tell the lens's story better than a chart or at least add something to the story

And as previously offered (on numerous occasions) a real test/demo with a real product is worth more than others' written opinions. You shoot the camera in your own environment and at your own pace and then you can play with the raw files to your heart's content!

Cheers

Yair
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 22, 2013, 09:48:44 pm
Fred: sorry you don't like my image styling. The point is the pixels/lens is sharp so if someone prefers a different level of edge contrast or saturation or a different s curve they are welcome to make it.

"different level of edge sharpness"  This image you posted is obviously heavily sharpened, edge contrast level being one of the characteristics of edge contrast.
Edge contrast is one of artificial artifacts of sharpening. When it is a visible as it is in the image you posted it is obviously heavily sharpened.
Posting a heavily sharpened image to demonstrate the sharpness of a lens is ... rather silly to say the least.

The signs of sharpening are so obvious:

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/3.jpg)
The black line along the edge of the white dress.



Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 23, 2013, 01:12:24 am
.....
In regards to the Schneider LS 55mm.  It's a workhorse lens. Tack sharp. Please don't sell yourself short by not having this lens in your working kit.   I shoot it all the time at 2.8 (recomposing for off center composition) at 1/1600 with profoto strobes. (Sorry Fred I don't have time and my clients don't  either while I dick  around  with little portable canon/nikon speedlites)  and find it to be crisp.  All those charts and graphs that Fred is putting up just don't stand up to real world photography.  If you want to see for YOURSELF,  then call a dealer.  They will let you shoot a few test frames.  Take the files home on a CF and see for yourself.  FYI.  The photo editors I work with Steve Fine (Sports Illustrated), Debbe Edelstein (People Magazine) never complain about my 55mm LS being blurry....
.....

Jeffery


You can name drop the photo editors of magazines, but we all know perfectly well that you don't need massive resolution for editorial photography.

People magazine... it's 8x10 and hardly known for high image quality. Celebrity gossip magazine.

As for your on not having time to dick around with Speedlights While I actually use many types of lights.. Tungsten, strobes, HMI etc
I often use speedlights (Canon and Nikon) in particular when I need some extra speed. This is often due to time constraints and working with
A-List clients whose time cost many times my rather high rate.

Here are a few examples of shots taken with Speedlights.

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b234ea592793.jpg[img]Pink[img]http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b234ed00d632.jpg)
Lady Gaga

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8485/8249482974_f9744e342b_c.jpg)
Shaq

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b2351e80f7c7.jpg[img]Robert Pattinson[img]http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b234dd18b48a.jpg)
Kristen Stewart

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/101015/14/4cb8c27f17622.jpg)
Ben Affleck

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8082/8407770976_f5d2251476_b.jpg)
Rev. Al Sharpton

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8190/8406677431_05cdc081d0_b.jpg)
Rammstein

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b2350eb74fa1.jpg)
Evan Rachael Wood

All taken with speedlights and my custom modifiers.
I can even hand hold the speedlight in one hand and camera in the other changing the light angle
with every small movement of the subjects face to get exactly the right shadow on the eyes.
I've developed a knack for reading the preview "pilot lights of sorts".

I also use strobes when I want to. Actually my biggest investments are in lights.

Regarding the 1/1600th of a second thing with LS shutter and Prophoto...
I have no problems shooting up to 1/8000th with the D800 and my Elinchrom Micro 6000 w/s and 3000 w/s packs.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 23, 2013, 08:50:32 am
You can name drop the photo editors of magazines, but we all know perfectly well that you don't need massive resolution for editorial photography.

People magazine... it's 8x10 and hardly known for high image quality. Celebrity gossip magazine.
ms shooting up to 1/8000th with the D800 and my Elinchrom Micro 6000 w/s and 3000 w/s packs.

Good morning Fred.

I believe in the power of photography.  It's my passion and art.  Avedon and Irving Penn, the photographic icons used 4 x 5 and 8 x10 for "Editorial photography". Do you think that was overkill for a magazines?  Contemporary photographer David Lachapelle uses  Phase one for his editorial shoots.  Its unfortunate to be shortsighted as a photographer.  My personal and professional  philosophy is to "begin with the end in mind".  And my end in mind is not limited to images printed in a magazine.  I believe you live in Los Angeles, which has some amazing photography galleries. Perhaps you should get out and visit them. Many galleries are featuring "editorial photography" printed huge.  

Frankly you do a disservice by arguing less is more.  Are suggesting that we limit are ourselves as artists by notion of "you don't need massive resolution for editorial photography".  Why Fred?  I understand the dots/line per science in printing presses.  But what makes you think that in the future the Museum of Modern art wont' call you and say hey Fred we love your work with actors.  We want to give you a show and print your images the size of an IMAX screen.  You can always downsize your images in CO or Photoshop.  Try to blow-up an iphone picture larger than 8 x10.  

Over the Christmas holidays I went to the Andrew Smith Gallery in Sante Fe, NM.  They have several huge Ansel Adam prints on display.  When Mr. Adams started photographing wilderness his images were used for the Sierra club.  That didn't stop him from lugging 5x7, 8 x 10 cameras up steep mountain slopes.  Why be mediocre?  

People Magazine is one of the top selling magazines in America. The magazine runs huge printed photos. You probability missed the simply touching and poignant photo essay the magazine ran on wounded American Iraqi war veterans.  (Not too shabby for a "Gossip Celebrity Magazine")  I suggest you look at the bylines of some of the photographers who currently shoot for the magazine and have in the past. Why are you showing backstage photos of celebrities? If you have a problem with "Celebrities Gossip magazines"? (Its a bit ironic, perhaps?)   As far as Sports Illustrated magazine is concerned. I suggest you google Walter Iooss who has shot some amazing photographs for SI with an 8 x 10 view camera.  Readers Digest is a  5 x 7 magazine.  When I shoot for them I use my MFD.  My pictures for them only run about 7 x 10 (across the spread), but boy do they pop off the page!  The editors of that tiny wordy magazine love photography.  They have a great IPAD app.

Namedrop?  Of course I do.  It's called demonstrating credibility. Having picture editors/ client approve of your work is very important.  I don't reference a chart when I choose to shoot at f2.8 with a tack sharp LS 55mm.  Do you suggest I google some red lens fall off rings?  I hardly think that really inspires the Lu-La readers to go out and shoot some great images.

I applaud your skills at photographing celebrities backstage.  The equipment you choose fits your working style.  Portable canon or Nikon speedlites definitely have a place for certain types of photography.  But I think we are talking apples and oranges.  In my type of photography I prefer consistent color temperature,  rapid recycle times and high power (The Profoto 7B pack is a dragon slayer!) plus the  ability to fill an 8 ft. octabank and etc.

In regards to the your success with 1/8000 flash sync. with a focal plane shutter.  That's cool.  But with me every shoot I do can make or break my relationship with a client.  In my field of photography, if you screw-up......they simply don't call you back for another gig.  I prefer to go with the leaf shutter glass and high power / short flash duration  packs like the elinchrom or Profoto.  Bi-tubes are great for freezing action.  

A link to my website is below.  My style tends toward the bright and poppy.   My main kit is Phase one P40 + with all Schneider glass.  My backup kit is Canon 5 d mk IIIs.  

Thank you,
Jeffery
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 23, 2013, 10:05:52 am
"different level of edge sharpness"  This image you posted is obviously heavily sharpened, edge contrast level being one of the characteristics of edge contrast.
Edge contrast is one of artificial artifacts of sharpening. When it is a visible as it is in the image you posted it is obviously heavily sharpened.
Posting a heavily sharpened image to demonstrate the sharpness of a lens is ... rather silly to say the least.

The signs of sharpening are so obvious:

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/3.jpg)
The black line along the edge of the white dress.

Just FYI the sharpening applied was very near the defaults in Capture One 7.0.2:
Sharpening Amount 160 (default is 140)
Sharpening Radius 1.0 (default is 1.0)
Sharpening Threshold 1.0 (default is 1.0)
Luminance NR: 0 (default is 55)
Color NR: 46 (default is 50)
Fine Grain: 10 (default is 0)
Clarity: 10 (default is 0)

If you prefer a different sharpening aesthetic that is fine.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on January 23, 2013, 10:33:10 am
Jeffery,

Welcome to LULA. It's always good to have real pros who contribute in positive ways based upon real world experiences. You have some amazing images on your site that are skillfully crafted that speak well of your story-telling ability and proficiency.

I hope you will continue to share your experiences and knowledge here.

Ed
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 23, 2013, 10:40:05 am
Thank you Ed.

Lu-La has always been my guilty pleasure! 

I like your portraits of Theologists.  It's a nice series.

Have a good shoot!
Jeffery
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Don Libby on January 23, 2013, 10:50:02 am
Welcome aboard Jeffery, it's always nice to have yet another professional who is willing to share experiences in a constructive rather than a destructive manner.

And thanks for the compliment!

Don
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 23, 2013, 09:30:39 pm
Were those shot with a LS55 ?!?! Red doughnuts of confusion everywhere !

Very nice pictures by the way  :-*



You can name drop the photo editors of magazines, but we all know perfectly well that you don't need massive resolution for editorial photography.

People magazine... it's 8x10 and hardly known for high image quality. Celebrity gossip magazine.

As for your on not having time to dick around with Speedlights While I actually use many types of lights.. Tungsten, strobes, HMI etc
I often use speedlights (Canon and Nikon) in particular when I need some extra speed. This is often due to time constraints and working with
A-List clients whose time cost many times my rather high rate.

Here are a few examples of shots taken with Speedlights.

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b234ea592793.jpg[img]Pink[img]http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b234ed00d632.jpg)
Lady Gaga

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8485/8249482974_f9744e342b_c.jpg)
Shaq

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b2351e80f7c7.jpg[img]Robert Pattinson[img]http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b234dd18b48a.jpg)
Kristen Stewart

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/101015/14/4cb8c27f17622.jpg)
Ben Affleck

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8082/8407770976_f5d2251476_b.jpg)
Rev. Al Sharpton

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8190/8406677431_05cdc081d0_b.jpg)
Rammstein

(http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091212/00/4b2350eb74fa1.jpg)
Evan Rachael Wood

All taken with speedlights and my custom modifiers.
I can even hand hold the speedlight in one hand and camera in the other changing the light angle
with every small movement of the subjects face to get exactly the right shadow on the eyes.
I've developed a knack for reading the preview "pilot lights of sorts".

I also use strobes when I want to. Actually my biggest investments are in lights.

Regarding the 1/1600th of a second thing with LS shutter and Prophoto...
I have no problems shooting up to 1/8000th with the D800 and my Elinchrom Micro 6000 w/s and 3000 w/s packs.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 23, 2013, 10:14:35 pm

Doug may simply have fallen victim to the bent field of focus and had trouble focusing.

Anyone have any popcorn ?

"different level of edge sharpness"  This image you posted is obviously heavily sharpened, edge contrast level being one of the characteristics of edge contrast.
Edge contrast is one of artificial artifacts of sharpening. When it is a visible as it is in the image you posted it is obviously heavily sharpened.
Posting a heavily sharpened image to demonstrate the sharpness of a lens is ... rather silly to say the least.

The signs of sharpening are so obvious:

(https://digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/55LS/3.jpg)
The black line along the edge of the white dress.




Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 23, 2013, 10:42:48 pm
My P65+ and IQ 180 shots with the 55mm LS seem to be tossed out as it was a test when I first tested the IQ 180 and a prototype 55LS. But I do have a couple from the P40+ which PLEASE dont remind me its a crop sensor , we are all not that stupid. I said it was a great lens on a Full Frame sensor and your just going to have to take my word on it or not. Frankly reading this thread is some lame comments from people that never shot it, tested it or owned it. I really wonder how in your right mind you can make comments on vapor shooting something. I'll never understand the armchair quarterback thingy. Oh well as B.C. said the internet is free. ROTFLMAO

I'm really not sure why i am even posting this stuff as i know for a fact it will get turned into something other than some decent shots with a nice lens. Maybe I'm the stupid one for even trying to tell the truth.

Anyway I actually shot these at F16 which I'm somewhat surprised I did that except for water movement I was trying to slow down.

B&W image shot for 6 seconds at F16
Color image shot for 3 seconds at F20 which I was forced into shooting at that small aperture. I dont really see diffraction in this one as i knew it was a risk shooting this slow.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 23, 2013, 10:48:38 pm
2 more from the same time frame both at F16 and one was 3 seconds and one 6 seconds and I am remembering using ND filters on all of these. Since we realized at this altitude we needed IR ND filters instead. Yosemite about 9k feet.


The first image I am focused fairly close up.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: chrismuc on January 23, 2013, 11:33:01 pm
Guy, could you please add 100% crops of the relevant area, it's impossible to evaluate the sharpness from web resolution pics. Thx.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 12:50:35 am
Guy, could you please add 100% crops of the relevant area, it's impossible to evaluate the sharpness from web resolution pics. Thx.


Hard to tell at Web resolution.

Nice shots. In particular the black and white.

The images are nice at this resolution, but are shot at F16 and F20 with a crop sensor. The MTF curve shows improvement just going from F5.6 to F8 as far as leveling off of the
roller coaster shaped curve. While there is some diffraction many other problems go away when you stop down. Things even out. Relative illumination levels out too.


It would also be interesting to see the black and white in RAW, Sky seems a bit on the noisy side for a straight ISO 100 with a DB.

Paul if your seriously interested in the 55LS lens I have plenty of images shot with the p40 and IQ 160 that PROVE the REAL reality how good this lens really is .......

My P65+ and IQ 180 shots with the 55mm LS seem to be tossed out as it was a test when I first tested the IQ 180 and a prototype 55LS.

Pity no full frame shots. What about the IQ160?
Pity you tossed them out. I always keep tests I like.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2013, 01:57:17 am
Sky is burned in. I would not use it as any reference a lot was added there. FF Images are buried or tossed , sorry no time for dealing with that or doing crops. I pulled these from images I already posted on my forum. My time the last 3 weeks and going forward for awhile is dedicated to a family member so I won't get to anything further. Sorry. My family comes first right now.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: henrikfoto on January 24, 2013, 02:53:08 am
Hi Guy!

Can I ask if you have any kind of relation to Phase One?

Henrik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2013, 04:23:37 am
Hi Henrik,

I think this an unappropriate question to ask. Guy is very open about his relation with Phase One.

He is a long time user of Phase backs. He also holds workshops at GetDPI.com and also acts as instructor at some Phase One Workshops.

I'm certain that what he writes is his honest opinion. Guy is also a guy who has been there and done that, check out his web site.

Phase One i a small company and it seems that dealers they have in the US are quite involved with the company, you know dealers talk and company listens ;-)

If you work with a small company and dedicated dealers you always get involved.  I had a similar relation with a once great company called Sun Microsystem. I happened to be one of their first customers in Sweden when they started up their Swedish operation, knew many of the people and had excellent support. A situation like that make you involved with the company.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Guy!

Can I ask if you have any kind of relation to Phase One?

Henrik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2013, 07:41:02 am
Hi Henrik,

I think this an unappropriate question to ask. Guy is very open about his relation with Phase One.

He is a long time user of Phase backs. He also holds workshops at GetDPI.com and also acts as instructor at some Phase One Workshops.

I'm certain that what he writes is his honest opinion. Guy is also a guy who has been there and done that, check out his web site.

Phase One i a small company and it seems that dealers they have in the US are quite involved with the company, you know dealers talk and company listens ;-)

If you work with a small company and dedicated dealers you always get involved.  I had a similar relation with a once great company called Sun Microsystem. I happened to be one of their first customers in Sweden when they started up their Swedish operation, knew many of the people and had excellent support. A situation like that make you involved with the company.

Best regards
Erik



Thanks Erik. Perfectly stated. I am close friends with all the dealers from DT and CI and have done a lot of new product testing as well. Jack and I are also considered media since we are owners in GetDPI as well as the owners here are considered media, so product involvement with prototype gear and new released gear we usually get a chance to test and review it which also includes other brands. I personally have bought 5 Phase backs and all there bodies and a good assortment of there glass over the years. My involvement on forums has to be exactly straight talk without any bias its just that simple. I do have preferences like any one else though. Which I freely admit I like Phase gear, always have. I like Nikon and some Leica gear as well. Canon I do not care much for. You want honesty that's all I will ever give. Like it or not whatever I say comes from the hip. I have always been open and forthright on any of my involvements with people. And yes some even advertise now on LL and GetDPI. The LS lenses all three that I have used 55,80 and especially the 110 I liked very much and performed as expected. The Schneider lenses have a very nice look to them.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: henrikfoto on January 24, 2013, 09:01:20 am
Hi Henrik,

I think this an unappropriate question to ask. Guy is very open about his relation with Phase One.





I don't think that is unappropriate at all. You are assuming everybody knows him.
I do not. I just wanted to know if he was working for Phase because he was
more positive to the 55ls than most people.

Henrik
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: yaya on January 24, 2013, 09:13:16 am
I don't think that is unappropriate at all. You are assuming everybody knows him.
I do not. I just wanted to know if he was working for Phase because he was
more positive to the 55ls than most people.
Henrik

C'mmon Henrik....a fair amount of information about a member can be accessed by clicking their name...in Guy's case:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1004 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1004)

and

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/photography-workshop-announcements-schedules/14441-about-instructors-jack-guy.html (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/photography-workshop-announcements-schedules/14441-about-instructors-jack-guy.html)

BR

Yair

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2013, 09:34:25 am
Hi Henrik,

I think this an unappropriate question to ask. Guy is very open about his relation with Phase One.





I don't think that is unappropriate at all. You are assuming everybody knows him.
I do not. I just wanted to know if he was working for Phase because he was
more positive to the 55ls than most people.

Henrik

Just maybe because I actually owned could be reason enough don't you think or are we all guessing at this stuff. I only talk about what I shoot. Maybe a lesson could be learned here. Lol
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 24, 2013, 10:12:55 am


Pity no full frame shots. What about the IQ160?


Hi Fred,

Could you kindly go rent an IQ160 and LS55mm and please post your findings? 

Thank you,
Jeffery
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Don Libby on January 24, 2013, 10:22:10 am
We have someone who has continually attacked a particular company dismissing anything good that's said about.  Found faults in most every thread begun by people who either sell the equipment or work for companies who sell.  Even still attacks threads where actual users offer their experience.  Attacks have been made against these people mention above even though they are totally transparent; meaning they can be readily found.

Try this - look at the bottom of a post where a signature is and in most cases you'll see a link to that person's website.  Now take a look at the person who's mission it is to attack an industry and most all who work in it.  See anything?  Do a Google. Find anything?  You can try something else - take a look at the threads either started by or contributed by a single person and you'll see the narcissistic attitude displayed.  You either agree or you are against him thus you are his enemy; he fails to recognize other's emotions and feelings as he expects you to go along with his ideas and plans. There's more however if you do just a simple bit of research you'll see.

And to be totally honest and above board.  I count the owner of Capture Integration as a very close friend.  My relationship with Phase One outside of owning several backs and bodies which I paid for is that I entered into a licensing agreement several years ago with them on several landscape images.  I used to own a Leica I loved using other than the inability to print in sizes I normally use.  We also own Canon equipment and drive a Ford Raptor which has been photographed by me for use by my dealer.  No hidden agenda.  I just want to capture landscape images and share what information I can along the way.
 
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on January 24, 2013, 12:22:35 pm
Don,
Well said!
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: gerald.d on January 24, 2013, 12:30:01 pm
Aaaaand we're back to the ad hominem attacks.

Well done chaps!
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 05:32:05 pm
Lets go back to lens image quality.

Lets compare some images to the Phase One 55mm LS 2.8 and 40MP crop sensor posted in this thread.

D800e with Zeiss 21mm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/poweiyeh_tw/7454539682/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/poweiyeh_tw/7454539682/)
Corner to corner clarity and detail.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8364/8338107472_f533e93245_b.jpg)
Russ Barnes on flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellbarnes/8338107472/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellbarnes/8338107472/)

D800E with Nikon 15mm with the 14-24mm f/2.8G ED ZOOM lens
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_688c3a6c1f_b.jpg)

higher res here:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_3d9c7f0fd0_o.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_3d9c7f0fd0_o.jpg)

D800e 70-200 2.8 II zoom
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8412825174_4b8af6c043_b.jpg)

higher res here
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8412825174_9ace6b7563_o.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8412825174_9ace6b7563_o.jpg)

One should also keep in mind the prices of the gear.





Phase One DF Plus 55mm 2.8 LS IQ140  about $ 30,000.  

D800E and Zeiss 21mm                       about $  4,900.

D800E and 14-24mm G                        about $  5,000



  


Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 24, 2013, 05:56:23 pm
Lets go back to lens image quality.

Can you please simply shoot your own photos with  the Schneider LS 55mm that clearly demonstrate what you are trying to communicate. 

Thank you,
Jeffery
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2013, 06:39:51 pm
And who said you can repost my images. I want it removed immediately if not sooner.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2013, 07:00:04 pm
Lets go back to lens image quality.

Phase One 55mm LS 2.8 and 40MP crop sensor
(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=74026.0;attach=73802;image)





I consider this a copyright infringement . I was waiting for you to do something stupid a troll always does.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: MrSmith on January 24, 2013, 07:24:34 pm
And who said you can repost my images. I want it removed immediately if not sooner.

if they are links to flickr and there's no added strap line for a product to mislead you into thinking its selling something then i dont think you have any right to say don't repost. if you host images on flickr then don't be surprised if people link them.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 07:25:11 pm
Edited. Removed.

Guy...

However that was no more than a link to the image you had linked to in this thread.

Look at the HTML code.

It's called in line linking. It's not a copyright infringement. Something forum owners and moderators are aware of.

Quote
Thus, in Perfect 10, Inc. v. Amazon.com, Inc.,[5] the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit explained why inline linking did not violate US copyright law:

Google does not...display a copy of full-size infringing photographic images for purposes of the Copyright Act when Google frames in-line linked images that appear on a user’s computer screen.
Because Google’s computers do not store the photographic images, Google does not have a copy of the images for purposes of the Copyright Act. In other words,
Google does not have any “material objects...in which a work is fixed...and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated” and thus cannot communicate a copy.
Instead of communicating a copy of the image, Google provides HTML instructions that direct a user’s browser to a website publisher’s computer that stores the full-size photographic image.
Providing these HTML instructions is not equivalent to showing a copy. First, the HTML instructions are lines of text, not a photographic image.
Second, HTML instructions do not themselves cause infringing images to appear on the user’s computer screen. The HTML merely gives the address of the image to the user’s browser.
The browser then interacts with the computer that stores the infringing image. It is this interaction that causes an infringing image to appear on the user’s computer screen.
Google may facilitate the user’s access to infringing images.
However, such assistance raised only contributory liability issues and does not constitute direct infringement of the copyright owner’s display rights. ...
While in-line linking and framing may cause some computer users to believe they are viewing a single Google webpage, the Copyright Act...does not protect a copyright holder against [such] acts....




As a courtesy I removed the inline link and now refer to it with words.
However I have saved your post making an accusation of copyright infringement
on a public forum. (pdf, screenshot and HTML)
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 07:47:22 pm
I consider this a copyright infringement . I was waiting for you to do something stupid a troll always does.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: sgilbert on January 24, 2013, 08:55:15 pm
The apparent absence of any moderation really devalues The Luminous Landscape discussion forum.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2013, 09:30:31 pm
Edited. Removed.

Guy...

However that was no more than a link to the image you had linked to in this thread.

Look at the HTML code.

It's called in line linking. It's not a copyright infringement. Something forum owners and moderators are aware of.



As a courtesy I removed the inline link and now refer to it with words.
However I have saved your post making an accusation of copyright infringement
on a public forum. (pdf, screenshot and HTML)

I know the law and I own a forum and just making a point. Bottom line don't repost my images as it is wrong to do and it's disrespectful and you already know that as a Pro. Have some respect for people's work as you post links to many of others work. I'm not going to get into the technicalities of the law but my lawyer would have a field day with this regardless of how the law is written. You should already know that as a working Pro, this is not amateur hour lets get that straight. No one posts my images except me. Fred I suggested this earlier that what was the point of posting a image here as you will turn it into something else to prove your point. Which is exactly what you done and exactly why I did not want to post in the first place which I am sure why many are not as well.

Ill further further comments out as it is not very pleasant for others but you lost any respect I may have had.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 10:00:30 pm
I know the law and I own a forum and just making a point. Bottom line don't repost my images as it is wrong to do and it's disrespectful and you already know that as a Pro. Have some respect for people's work as you post links to many of others work. I'm not going to get into the technicalities of the law but my lawyer would have a field day with this regardless of how the law is written. You should already know that as a working Pro, this is not amateur hour lets get that straight. No one posts my images except me. Fred I suggested this earlier that what was the point of posting a image here as you will turn it into something else to prove your point. Which is exactly what you done and exactly why I did not want to post in the first place which I am sure why many are not as well.

Ill further further comments out as it is not very pleasant for others but you lost any respect I may have had.

Now your trying to turn this around. It's not re posting your image. Images are carried over into other posts all the time. Just hitting the quote button does that to.

I have shared compliments on your images many times. My images get linked here all the time. It's part of how the forums work.
My images were as you would say "re posted" twice in this thread.....

The first line of my post was quite clear. "Lets go back to lens image quality." I was posting about lens quality...
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 24, 2013, 10:22:31 pm

I'm not going to dump on the Nikkor 15mm since I have not shot with it personally, but I would be curious to see the MTF graph for it after reading a description of it on the 16-9 website. This description is quite telling:

Talking about the 15mm Nikkor "The problem is particularly acute at smaller apertures, as was the case with the Nikon 14mm - both lenses displaying a weird rippled, toroidal plane of focus (like a slice of doughnut)...". Quite amusing... :)

Looking at some sample images, the corner sharpness is abysmal at any aperture:

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/15mm_2/sigma1224vnikon15b.html

The LS55 sample file from Doug (full frame sensor and more demanding on the lens) while minimally sharpened, appears vastly superior to the results from the Nikkor lens. I doubt either one would cause any focusing problems in a viewfinder but for 40" prints I doubt the results from the Nikkor lens would be very satisfactory.

This is obviously a pointless comparison, but then again so is this thread.

I'm not up to date on copyright information, but using Guy's long exposure image that contains motion blur from moving branches and selectively focused on the foreground with an out of focus background, and comparing it to small images that easily mask a lens' flaws is a bit of a cheap shot. But then again, so is fabricating MTF graphs and drawing red circles to make everyone believe that an 80MP razor sharp image at 40" would appear out of focus in a 12" magazine spread.

I don't question Fred's skills as a photographer, and it isn't my goal to discredit him, but some of the claims made to discredit a perfectly good product are simply outlandish (yet extremely amusing).

Steve Hendrix originally started the thread to share some useful information with everyone. Some jumped on the opportunity to blast a good product, proof was then shown that the lens was pretty damn sharp (even with any mild file sharpening applied). And once again it's all headed downhill fast; I suggest the original poster lock/close this thread before it degenerates any further.

And if anyone wants a copy for the archives, I'm sure Fred would be thrilled to send you a PDF :)


Paul



Lets go back to lens image quality.

Lets compare some images to the Phase One 55mm LS 2.8 and 40MP crop sensor posted in this thread.

D800E with Nikon 15mm
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_688c3a6c1f_b.jpg)


Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 10:40:23 pm
That image of the library was shot at 15mm with the 14-24mm f/2.8G ED.

The 15mm ais you are refering to is a much older lens.... I think it was around in the early 1980s.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 10:47:07 pm
I know the law and I own a forum and just making a point. Bottom line don't repost my images as it is wrong to do and it's disrespectful and you already know that as a Pro. Have some respect for people's work as you post links to many of others work. I'm not going to get into the technicalities of the law but my lawyer would have a field day with this regardless of how the law is written. You should already know that as a working Pro, this is not amateur hour lets get that straight. No one posts my images except me. Fred I suggested this earlier that what was the point of posting a image here as you will turn it into something else to prove your point. Which is exactly what you done and exactly why I did not want to post in the first place which I am sure why many are not as well.

Ill further further comments out as it is not very pleasant for others but you lost any respect I may have had.

You know the law, but still chose to accuse me of copyright infringement.
At least I don't make these kind of accusations.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 24, 2013, 10:58:00 pm

It would be helpful to provide the correct lens information in the first place (instead of labeling it as a 15mm and changing it after)

Another good example of image quality :

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/68162974/Raw%20File%20Catalog/Capture/Sample%20Files/28LS%20vs.%2028D%20vs.%2032HR/Scene-1_IQ160_28D_f11-ProfotoRGB.jpg


That image of the library was shot at 15mm with the 14-24mm f/2.8G ED.

The 15mm ais you are refering to is a much older lens.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 24, 2013, 11:40:18 pm

Another good example of image quality :

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/68162974/Raw%20File%20Catalog/Capture/Sample%20Files/28LS%20vs.%2028D%20vs.%2032HR/Scene-1_IQ160_28D_f11-ProfotoRGB.jpg



Paul.

The 28mm is a different story. Thanks for posting it. IT somewhat confirms what I have been saying.
THe 55mm 2.8 LS is not up to snuff. The 28mm however is a very good lens. As is the 110mm 2.8 and the brilliant 150mm 2.8 D.

Actually if you look at the MTF curves you can see a significant difference between the 55 and the 28.

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2013, 12:03:22 am
Hi,

Tim Ashley has an article about the Zeiss 21/2,8 and he says the lens has a significant curvature of field. He has good samples to show. Tim actually prefers his Samyang 14/2.8 to the Zeiss.

The Nikon 14-24/2.8 is an impressive lens, for sure. The sample you show is at 50% scale. The black and white image is a smallish, another image is absurdly oversharpened.

Just pulling an image from the web is full of frails.

A very major issue is sharpening. Here is a fairly optimal image, pinpoint focus at f/5.6.

(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/DoF2/A55_100Macro_small1-5.jpg)

The next image is defocused (90 mm defocus at 3.0m) and shot at f/16:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/DoF2/A55_100Macro_small1-20.jpg)

The last image is the defocused f/16 image, but aggressively sharpened:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/DoF2/A55_100Macro_small1-20_TopazInFocus.jpg)

The image on the top has most detail, but I'm pretty sure that the aggressively sharpened image at bottom would be considered to be the sharpest one.

The images were shot using a 100/2.8 Minolta macro lens on a 4.77 micron pitch DSLR with OLP filtering. The crops shown are near optical axis and at actual pixels.

Best regards
Erik





Lets go back to lens image quality.

Lets compare some images to the Phase One 55mm LS 2.8 and 40MP crop sensor posted in this thread.

D800e with Zeiss 21mm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/poweiyeh_tw/7454539682/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/poweiyeh_tw/7454539682/)
Corner to corner clarity and detail.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8364/8338107472_f533e93245_b.jpg)
Russ Barnes on flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellbarnes/8338107472/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellbarnes/8338107472/)

D800E with Nikon 15mm with the 14-24mm f/2.8G ED ZOOM lens
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_688c3a6c1f_b.jpg)

higher res here:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_3d9c7f0fd0_o.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8412801002_3d9c7f0fd0_o.jpg)

D800e 70-200 2.8 II zoom
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8412825174_4b8af6c043_b.jpg)

higher res here
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8412825174_9ace6b7563_o.jpg (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8412825174_9ace6b7563_o.jpg)

One should also keep in mind the prices of the gear.



Phase One DF Plus 55mm 2.8 LS IQ140  about $ 30,000.  

D800E and Zeiss 21mm                       about $  4,900.

D800E and 14-24mm G                        about $  5,000



  





Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 25, 2013, 12:24:38 am
which one are you saying is over sharpened?
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Paul Ozzello on January 25, 2013, 12:34:34 am
A valid point.

I hope the competition from Nikon and Canon will lead to significant improvements in MFDB sensor design and bring prices to more 'reasonable' levels - the gap between 35mm and MF in the film days wasn't such a tough pill to swallow.


Phase One DF Plus 55mm 2.8 LS IQ140  about $ 30,000. 

D800E and Zeiss 21mm                       about $  4,900.

D800E and 14-24mm G                        about $  5,000

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am
Hi,

I don't know.  To me it seems that the MFD market is small and fragmented. In a sense I don't think 35mm digital is driving development APS-C and 4/3 does. Development starts in small sensors and scales up to full frame. MF sensor makers don't have the same development paths and volumes. You can build a new 0.18 micron fab to produce half a billion sensors for phone cams, and you can make full frame SLR sensors in the same fab. Unlikely that anyone would build a 0.18 micron fab for producing 7000 CCD chips a year.

On the other hand it is possible to develop your own CMOS sensor (as Leica did in cooperation with CMOSIS for the Leica M). Would MF vendors join in an effort to develop new base technology (sensors). Would they cooperate to support the leading image handling software (like Capture One and Lightroom) and fully support DNG I think they could be more competitive.

Best regards
Erik

A valid point.

I hope the competition from Nikon and Canon will lead to significant improvements in MFDB sensor design and bring prices to more 'reasonable' levels - the gap between 35mm and MF in the film days wasn't such a tough pill to swallow.

Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2013, 03:55:28 am
Hi,

This one. I checked at original size.

Best regards
Erik

http://www.flickr.com/photos/poweiyeh_tw/7454539682/

Regarding the prices of gear I agree. But there is another side to it, having a large business like BC is different than using small scale work.  An MFDB is a large investment for an amateur like me, but it can be a reasonable investment in a long run. Bcooter says he has used his Contax/Phase for a very long time with zero problems, so it worked out well for him.

Personally, I figure that trying a Nikon D800/D800E with a few good lenses would be a smart thing to do before going to invest several times that much in MF gear.

Best regards
Erik


which one are you saying is over sharpened?
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 25, 2013, 08:24:30 am
You know the law, but still chose to accuse me of copyright infringement.
At least I don't make these kind of accusations.

As I suggested earlier you wouldn't have hardworking professional photographers rightly accusing you of copyright infringement if you simply,  did the honorable thing and did your own independent testing.

It would definitely improve your credibility.  I don't quite understand why an accomplished photographer such as yourself wouldn't so do.

Quite frankly just because someone links a photo on flickr doesn't mean you should at least drop them a short email asking permission to use their images.  I notice you have your copyright symbol on your backstage photos of celebrities.  Did they sign a release allowing you usage?

Of course you can ignore this post. But I look forward to the day you rent the Nikon, Canon or Phase one gear and produce some compelling images rather then spending all night on google or flickr.  

Thank you,
Jeffery
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Jeffery Salter on January 25, 2013, 08:36:05 am
Phase One DF Plus 55mm 2.8 LS IQ140  about $ 30,000. 

D800E and Zeiss 21mm                       about $  4,900.

D800E and 14-24mm G                        about $  5,000


It doesn't hurt to have all three.  If you are an advertising, high end fashion photographer then the 1 or 2 assignments could pay for the Phase system.  If you are a hobbyist who loves photography then you don't buy that red mustang when you turn fifty!  Whatever gear you choose......hide the receipts from your wife or husband!!! They will have you committed.

Medium format gear has always been expensive.  The Nikon gear is at a sweet spot in price.  But to me it all depends upon what you trying to say in your images.  It's like Gordon Parks would say, " you have a choice of weapons"


Thank you,
Jeffery
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Rob C on January 25, 2013, 08:40:03 am
The apparent absence of any moderation really devalues The Luminous Landscape discussion forum.


Be careful what you wish; we usually gain far more than we lose working within the status quo. One interesting effect of sensible moderation is that threads are allowed to drift a little bit off-topic and often turn into far more interesting ones because of that; a strict disciplinarian at the helm would contribute to ultimate boredom and premature death; nothing prevents a poster reverting to topic at any moment in the life of any thread. Then, if further interest is really there, it resumes, or not, depending on the level of that interest.

I think it works just fine.

Rob C
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Rob C on January 25, 2013, 08:57:55 am
Regarding curvature of field with wide-angle lenses.

Many years ago the British Journal of Photography (BJP) ran a test on some wide whose identity I've since forgotten, beyond the fact that it was supposed to be state-of-the-art (I won't say cutting-edge, because to me, that's always redolent of the worst excesses of stock library claims/manifestos); they set op the camera on a tripod and, using traffic cones, discovered that the plane of sharp focus described a beautiful semi-circular shape.

All of that, beyond showing that some things just can't be done within optical design parameters, also displays the fallacy of focussing on one thing and then reframing the shot on the assumption that because both objects are at, say, ten feet from the camera, they will also appear to be in the new plane of focus when the camera is re-pointed at the real object that was required to be crisp. Ironically, the worse (more pronounced) the actual curvature of field, the more accurate that flawed focussing technique referred to becomes, and the flatter the plane of focus achieved in actual lens design, the more out of focus the technique renders the subject!

That's basically why the f64 people existed: made the best out of a bum set of circustances (my take - I might be mistaken).

Rob C
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2013, 05:31:55 pm
Hi,

Modern designs have much flatter field than older designs. This is probably mostly due to use of moulded aspherics, glass with high refracting index and floating elements.

Older design of "Distagon type" lenses often have the "wavy" type of field, but recent designs are essentially almost flat, judged from available MTF curves.

When you shoot at infinity the subject is essentially flat. So landscape at infinity and repro are the areas where flat field is really critical.

The best way to achieving correct focus is live view at actual pixel scale. You can focus anywhere in the image and focus would be exact if we did not have focus shift. But live view manual focus is not a fast way to focus.

Best regards
Erik

Regarding curvature of field with wide-angle lenses.

Many years ago the British Journal of Photography (BJP) ran a test on some wide whose identity I've since forgotten, beyond the fact that it was supposed to be state-of-the-art (I won't say cutting-edge, because to me, that's always redolent of the worst excesses of stock library claims/manifestos); they set op the camera on a tripod and, using traffic cones, discovered that the plane of sharp focus described a beautiful semi-circular shape.

All of that, beyond showing that some things just can't be done within optical design parameters, also displays the fallacy of focussing on one thing and then reframing the shot on the assumption that because both objects are at, say, ten feet from the camera, they will also appear to be in the new plane of focus when the camera is re-pointed at the real object that was required to be crisp. Ironically, the worse (more pronounced) the actual curvature of field, the more accurate that flawed focussing technique referred to becomes, and the flatter the plane of focus achieved in actual lens design, the more out of focus the technique renders the subject!

That's basically why the f64 people existed: made the best out of a bum set of circustances (my take - I might be mistaken).

Rob C
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 25, 2013, 07:50:32 pm
Most significant advancements are in wide angles and zooms.

Manual live view focusing with Canon or Nikon is very quick. It can even be done remotely with the camera
on the top of a pole etc.
The slow refresh rate with MF backs is slow, takes patience and some extra skill.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 25, 2013, 08:16:49 pm
The image you are referring to me having infringed copyright on was posted here by the photographer as part of the discussion.
It was in one of my comments as an inline link just as images appear here when someone quotes a posting.

I also post many of my images and yes I do have releases. One thing that I include in nearly all my releases is my right to use images for articles and discussions regarding
my work as well as portfolio and promotion of my work.

Bullshit you reposted it in a separate post and not quoted it which is normal and posted it against other images from a different system as a comparison which  I did not give you permission to do that with my image. Bottom line I banned you from GetDPI and your looking for revenge just like you are for buying a used phase system and blaming them for your issues and looking to bring them down because they did not help you solve your issue in which they would make no money from it, what the fuck do you expect for buying used off of ebay and in the process trying to make every dealer here look like they are not honorable in every way. Do you honestly think anyone is that stupid enough not to see right through your posts. Your clearly a troll with a agenda. You have lost every respect from every Pro here you can count on that one.

I'm done here my apologies to Michael as the owner here and to all the other fine members. I don't need this hassle.

No one is going to ruin this perfectly great day with my wife getting a all clear from brain surgery three weeks ago. Had here radiation treatment today and she is good to go. So my attitude right now is fuck off I don't give a crap anymore about this stuff and people that are fake.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: Ed Foster, Jr. on January 25, 2013, 09:01:21 pm
Most significant advancements are in wide angles and zooms.

Manual live view focusing with Canon or Nikon is very quick. It can even be done remotely with the camera
on the top of a pole etc.
The slow refresh rate with MF backs is slow, takes patience and some extra skill.
Fred,
I don't mean to open a hornet's nest, but I am curious, why you changed this post totally after Guy Mancuso quoted it and responded to it?

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 25, 2013, 10:10:12 pm
Fred,
I don't mean to open a hornet's nest, but I am curious, why you changed this post totally after Guy Mancuso quoted it and responded to it?

Thanks,
Ed

Ed

"I don't mean to open a hornet's nest".....

Actually I had not read Guys post. If you look at the time stamps the edit time
on my post is 13 minutes before Guy posted his.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8085/8416019532_ea6d41e663_b.jpg)

Looks like I hit modify instead of reply.

I'm testing a nifty app that lets you use a tablet as a second monitor and lets you use the touch screen to type and click, drag etc.
Screen is small and my fingers are big. I types the message on the tablet....

http://youtu.be/la6pLkpRbDg (http://youtu.be/la6pLkpRbDg)

It is really cool. Lets me show images to a client and with the Samsung Slate lets me sketch notes on the tablet

It a second monitor and remote all in one go.  I am testing it as a remote for Lightroom. A bit like Capture Pilot.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 26, 2013, 12:02:42 am
Bullshit you reposted it in a separate post and not quoted it which is normal and posted it against other images from a different system as a comparison which  I did not give you permission to do that with my image. Bottom line I banned you from GetDPI and your looking for revenge just like you are for buying a used phase system and blaming them for your issues and looking to bring them down because they did not help you solve your issue in which they would make no money from it, what the fuck do you expect for buying used off of ebay and in the process trying to make every dealer here look like they are not honorable in every way. Do you honestly think anyone is that stupid enough not to see right through your posts. Your clearly a troll with a agenda. You have lost every respect from every Pro here you can count on that one.

I'm done here my apologies to Michael as the owner here and to all the other fine members. I don't need this hassle.

No one is going to ruin this perfectly great day with my wife getting a all clear from brain surgery three weeks ago. Had here radiation treatment today and she is good to go. So my attitude right now is fuck off I don't give a crap anymore about this stuff and people that are fake.

Actually the issue was more regarding the camera Phase One DF, and the camera/grip. Both bought from a long time and recommended member of GetDPI.
Very nice fellow. The DF was absolutely mint. The back he was selling with it had only 800 shots on it.
I NEVER had an issue with the digital backs I had. P25+ Worked like a charm with my Fuji GX680 and OK with the Phase One AF and Hasselblad lens. I have spoken well of the P25+.
So it's not an ebay problem as you are trying to imply.
I NEVER ASKED FOR ANYTHING FREE FROM PHASE ONE OR MAMIYA USA.

The problem I had were random freezes. Totally unpredictable and random. Biting me in the ass right in a shoot.
Taking lens, back and batteries apart to get it going again. No something a pro photographer should have to do
in front of the client.

The truth of the matter is that dealer and phase suggested I should buy a better back.
I think that me making it clear that 22 MP was all I needed (I would rent more MP if needed) and that I was not a candidate for buying a new back
they probably were not interested in me.

Their dealer in SOCAL, Phase and Mamiya could not come up with a simple part
(guide plate that goes between camera and grip keeping everything aligned.)
I needed and that was the last drop in the bucket for me having seen some good Nikon d800 files.
I would have kept the back, but had also decided that I preferred to shoot film full frame with the Fuji GX680
after trying out the Nikon tilt shift lenses.

Regarding me inline linking / "quoting" your photo I removed it when I saw your post.
You could have sent me a PM and I would have done the same as well as pointing out that it
was not a copyright violation.

People inline link my images all the time and do so with other images. It's the very nature of
a photography forum discussion. You did post it as an example of the lens that was being discussed.

My images get discussed all the time.

Sorry you got upset. What I don't understand is that I simply showed some alternative examples
with inline links.
I made no negative comment on the photo.






Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: FredBGG on January 26, 2013, 12:12:14 am
These discussion can get quite deep, but they are only important to a certain point.

The fact that your wife is better. That is very important and excellent news. Cancer had visited my family too.
I wish you both the very best.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: abiggs on January 27, 2013, 11:25:50 am
This is such a bizarre thread.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 27, 2013, 11:38:04 am
Hi,

Yes I think so. Steve Hendrix posted MTF data from Schneider, which is a good thing in my book, than we got a lot of discussion about a weakness of one of the lenses.

I would say, yes, it is a weakness. Buy another lens if it matters. Does it matter? I doubt it does. Is it visible? Yes, I think so, but only on a flat subject or infinity.

Steve says the lens has been designed for close distance work, reasonable, because you wouldn't use flash at long distance.

I estimate that the loss of MTF is what you get being about 7 cm out of focus at 2 m.

Best regards
Erik

This is such a bizarre thread.
Title: Re: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts ( A small update)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 28, 2013, 04:55:57 pm
Hi,

I sort of tried to reproduce the effect of the drop at 22 mm on the 55 mm lens. What I tried to do to defocus the lens, by moving the camera so I got the same MTF as shown in the Schneider graphs in the worst position. I needed 7.5 cm defocus at 2 meters to achieve that.

I compared the correctly focused image with the defocused image at actual pixels and the difference was clearly obvious, but probably not too bad.

Finally I made small crops (7.01 mm wide) that I printed in A4. The A4 prints would correspond to prints sized 138x184 cm (54" x 72") on a P65+. At that size the loss of sharpness is not really obvious. If I look at the two A4 prints side by side I cannot say the difference, do I hold one above the other, so I can compare parts of the image without shifting view the difference  is obvious. But I don't think it would be visible on two 54" x 72" images hanging side by side.

I feel that my experiment may explain the situation. The Schneider lens has a weakness in that area, corresponding to defocusing 7-8 cm at 2.0 m, and that difference would not be noticable on 54" x 72" prints, side by side. This explains while every owner seems to be happy with the lens.

Best regards
Erik