Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs Ė and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JoeKitchen on December 26, 2012, 12:58:46 PM

Title: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: JoeKitchen on December 26, 2012, 12:58:46 PM
Not discussing the back, is there a real difference in quality?

Would it be worth it to not get the Mamiya add-on when buying a Phase or Leaf Credo, finding a used H1 or H2 and than upgrading to a H4x?
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 26, 2012, 01:35:53 PM
The Hasselblad bodies are better than Phase/Mamiya, but you will be limited to Hasselblad H lenses
and no focal plane shutter so your fastest shutter speed is 1/800th. Hasselblad prism finder is far better for the crop sensor
IQ140 because Hasselblad makes two types of prisms. One for full frame and one for crop frame.

However the H4X was principally designed to upgrade clients that had older backs and needed a replacement body.

There are problems with Aptus backs. Phase and Hasselblad have got into a pissing match blaming each other for the problem.

From Hasselblad
Quote
*Due to Leaf Aptus S & Aptus II not communicating within the specified protocol the H4X currently does not function with these two digital back models. Our investigations have concluded that this is due to parts of the communication from the digital back not being within specification, causing a fault condition and a lock-up of the camera body and digital back. The H4X platform is more accurate and sensitive and therefore detects the signals from the digital back as outside of specification.
All technical information has been passed on to Leaf and we are at their disposal to help rectify the problem. At present time we have not had any response from Leaf and therefore are not in a position to say when this will work.

From Phase (Ulf)
Quote
Hi

We have heard about this and it seem that the H4x communication does not match the communication from a H1 or H2 even if Hasselblad claims it does (Which you can see yourself since the back works on a H1)
Basically the only thing we can hope for fixes this problem through a firmware fix for the body.

End user follow up to the above ULF posting.
Quote
So, it is official. For anyone who owns a Leaf back prior to the Aptus II, Ziv Argov, the Director of Marketing and Product management has finally admitted, after doing a dance around my questions about my Aptus 75S not working on the Hasselblad H4X, that they (LEAF) will not be fixing the issues that exist with the firmware and the communication between older Leaf backs and the H4X camera. Ever. I quote " With the life cycle of an electronic device there's a point where its development has to stop and in the case of the Aptus 75S (which is what I understand you own) this happened back in 2008 when the Aptus-II was introduced. The new backs (Credo 40, 60 & 80) are supported, but also plan to enable support for the prior 3 released backs (aptus II)'

Mamiya Leaf does not list the H4X as compatible on their website
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_credo.asp (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_credo.asp)

Quote
Under supported cameras:
Hasselblad: V-series (except for 200 and 2000 models), H1, H2
No mention of the H4X

Phase One on its IQ180 data sheet does not say it supports the H4X, just H1 and H2.

Personally I would stay away from a Hasselblad / MamiyaLeaf or Phase one mix.
Phase and Leaf can already be a problem to deal with as it is.. adding Hasselblad into the mix
would only complicate things. The fact that Phase and Leaf do not currently state H4X compatibility
on their websites would lead me to believe that if something comes up you would be on your own

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 26, 2012, 03:34:39 PM
I shoot Rollei Hy6 but have tried both the others and if I didn't have it as a choice, I'd definitely get the Hasselblad.   IMHO - The H4 is way better camera than the DF for many reasons including the better finder and actually just having a choice of finders, true focus, and other features.   The Mamiya DF suffers from long black out times between frames and has problems with mirror vibration shake even when on tripods.   
 
 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: lance_schad on December 26, 2012, 03:49:59 PM
The H4x is a very nice body and works well with the Credo/IQ series, but it is very expensive to get into compared to the DF+ bundles that are being offered with digital back purchases from Mamiya and Phase One. You need to trade in a H1/H2 body (about $1500) and pay a minimum of $5695, you will also need a Viewfinder and purchase a rechargeable grip. So you are looking at an investment of about $7,695 (give or take a few dollars) for a Body Only.

Whereas a bundled DF+/80MM LS lens when purchased as a bundle with a Mamiya or Phase One back is between $3500 and $5000 complete depending on bundle type.

Since it seems that most of your work will be Architecture and its seems you will most likely be using a Tech Cam (as you have stated in your previous threads) here are some things to consider:

The PhaseOne/Mamiya Platform can work with both Focal Plane and Leaf Shutter lenses. There are a plethora of lenses available for this platform of varying vintages and available on the new and used market.

The wide angle offerings and wide angle zoom offerings on the Hasselblad Platform (24mm/28mm-35mm-90mm) do not cover the whole frame of the 60/80MP (54mm x 40mm) sensors they were designed for 33x44 and 37x49 sensors.

By staying with an all Phase One or Mamiya solution you can be assured there will interoperability between the body and back.


Lance



Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Gel on December 26, 2012, 03:52:53 PM
As a user of the:

AFDIII, DF, H1 and H3DII the Hasselblad is the better camera. Modular, more 'fun' to use.

I like the fact you can really pull the Hassy body apart for cleaning.

For slower work the RZ67 is pretty unbeatable though. In every case you can't go wrong with the glass on either.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: JV on December 26, 2012, 04:52:44 PM
I use a P30+ back on a Hasselblad H4X.  It is a very good combination.  There are no problems.

As far as I know the H4X works well with any Phase One back.  Initial issues with the IQ backs were addressed through firmware updates.  The combination is said to be stable now.

As mentioned above the Hasselblad H4X does not work at all with Leaf Aptus S and Leaf Aptus II backs.

Phase/Leaf should list the H4x as a supported platform on their websites.  In my opinion it is pretty lame of them not to do so. 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: JoeKitchen on December 26, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
To be honest, I really could care less and will rarely ever shoot with a DSLR when going MF (tech camera is where I want to be).  However, my girlfriend is a food and "restaurant lifestyle" photographer.  We presently share (and share in the cost) a good deal of equipment.  Although we plan on both getting a MF system, I would be the first (been in business about 3 years longer) and just wonder if Hassy is actually worth it for her type of work.  If so, I feel that it would not make sense to get a Mamiya system if she is just eventually going to get a Hassy.  She is fixated on the Hassy camera but would rather have a Phase or Leaf back. 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: evgeny on December 26, 2012, 06:26:34 PM
Take into account that a women will not be able to handheld the Mamiya DF camera for more than 60 seconds.
The Mamiya with two sets of batteries, lens and digital back is much heavier than a complete H4D camera with a lens of similar focal length.
Your choice is easy, if you want to share equipment with another photographer.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: JoeKitchen on December 26, 2012, 06:36:51 PM
Take into account that a women will not be able to handheld the Mamiya DF camera for more than 60 seconds.
The Mamiya with two sets of batteries, lens and digital back is much heavier than a complete H4D camera with a lens of similar focal length.
Your choice is easy, if you want to share equipment with another photographer.
I think you should be thankful that this forum is very male dominated, but still something to consider. 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: lance_schad on December 26, 2012, 07:06:10 PM
Your best bet is to do a head to head demo. We often do this for people on the fence as to which platform is for them.
We set up an H4x and DF+ with similars backs / lenses and let you try them each out.
Since it seems that you will not be using the wider lenses for your work then it comes down to personal preference and feel.
Being based here in the NY market our client base is mixed. It used to be more skewed towards Hassy as the platform of choice, but we have seen a great number of studios and photographers switch over to the Phase/Mamiya platform.
Again it boils down to whatever feels best to you .

Lance
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 26, 2012, 07:41:00 PM
The H4x is a very nice body and works well with the Credo/IQ series, but it is very expensive to get into compared to the DF+ bundles that are being offered with digital back purchases

I seriously doubt that H are more expensive.   Lance what's the price of that new DF+ body again?    I have found that Hasselblad is offering some great deals.   I have already too many cameras, but was tempted by the end of year deals Hasselblad is making on their CPO store.  Some camera+back+lens deals under $10k.   

btw - I am totally biased so my opinion is only that of myself, so best to demo them both for yourself.  In my case, using the DF for a week last year firmed up my opinion as I literally had nothing positive to say for the camera after using it.   I like the phase backs and use a Leaf back. 

One big factor besides the camera (and lens choice) is the software,  Phocus and Capture One, as that is part of the equation.  I use both regularly as I still feel they are better than LR4 and while I get around in both ok, I think C1 is easier. 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Lacunapratum on December 26, 2012, 08:23:30 PM
Thought about Rolleiflex Hy6 or Pentax 645D? 

Both are great systems as well.  The Pentax is very well integrated, reasonably priced, and has a mix of nice older lenses and some outstanding new lenses.  There is a new model Hy6, it will allow to use the new Leaf Credo backs, and has an unparalleled set of lenses. 

Just a thought. 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: JoeKitchen on December 26, 2012, 08:47:34 PM
Thought about Rolleiflex Hy6 or Pentax 645D? 

Both are great systems as well.  The Pentax is very well integrated, reasonably priced, and has a mix of nice older lenses and some outstanding new lenses.  There is a new model Hy6, it will allow to use the new Leaf Credo backs, and has an unparalleled set of lenses. 

Just a thought. 

I very much like the Hy6 because of the true waist high view finder (which I find to much easier on the back when you are concerned about the perspective).  However it seems to be much more expensive than the Hassy and Mamiya with very little support in the U.S.  Not worth the price if you ask me, considering my main camera would be a tech camera.  (Should I mention I cringe at the thought of shooting handheld.) 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 26, 2012, 09:10:09 PM
I shoot my Hy6 handheld about 95% of the time. But everyone has their own method.  The problem with the Mamiya is it still can suffer from mirror shake shooting on a tripod unless you mirror up and wait.    The Hy6 / AFi is very good wrt mirror dampening.    It's probably the best or one of the best MF cameras to shoot handheld since the mirror is so well damped.  I very often shoot at 1/30 and sometimes as slow as 1/15.   I don't even use the mirror up, but a button is by your thumb in case you want it.   Everyone says this is an expensive platform but in truth I'm not sure sure.  You'd pay more for a DF+ body new than you'd pay for a Hy6 new. Same goes with lenses, I think the new prices are about the same for any of the systems - Leica S even higher.  Just buy direct from the factory, DHW.   If you buy from B&H or one of the other vendors like 9 days HK, you'd pay more since DHW doesn't give anyone any deals unless of course you ask. :-)  It takes about 3 days once you've paid to get your items and regarding service, yes, its an issue, but service is faster than Leica for sure.  The great thing about the AFi is that you can use Capture One software and as was pointed out, a very good lens system.  Plenty of quality lenses on the second hand market, too.

if you want a cheap and good camera with a nice WLF, the Mamiya RZ is hard to beat.  Of course this is pretty primitive compared to H4 or HY6 but what else can you get into where the lenses can be found for under $200?
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: studio347 on December 26, 2012, 11:27:32 PM
I use a phase one back with 4 by 5 camera for still-life(food) photography. I use the hassel H2 with HC 120(usually) and a phase one back, as the second camera. For me, this is a very good set-up for the still-life photography. I had a phaseone camera before, and moved on to Hassel. Maybe more money and hassle to change it, but I like the feel of Hassel camera. This feel is very important as we all know...You should try it for yourself. I like capture one software very much. Personal opinion only, of course.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: evgeny on December 27, 2012, 02:28:58 AM
I think you should be thankful that this forum is very male dominated, but still something to consider.  

Male often talk about technical specifications. You will like the wide angle Hasselblad 24mm, 28mm lenses and tilt-shift HTS 1.5 adapter for your interior/architecture photography.
The HTS adapter is in my wish list as well.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: lance_schad on December 27, 2012, 03:27:43 AM
I seriously doubt that H are more expensive.   Lance what's the price of that new DF+ body again?    I have found that Hasselblad is offering some great deals.   I have already too many cameras, but was tempted by the end of year deals Hasselblad is making on their CPO store.  Some camera+back+lens deals under $10k.   

btw - I am totally biased so my opinion is only that of myself, so best to demo them both for yourself.  In my case, using the DF for a week last year firmed up my opinion as I literally had nothing positive to say for the camera after using it.   I like the phase backs and use a Leaf back. 

One big factor besides the camera (and lens choice) is the software,  Phocus and Capture One, as that is part of the equation.  I use both regularly as I still feel they are better than LR4 and while I get around in both ok, I think C1 is easier. 

Eric,
Yes the regular prices between the H4x (with trade in Body) and DF+ Body only are similar:
H4x Body Only $5,695 (requires trade in of H1/H2 body and you need a VF)
So lets say you do not owen a H1/H2 to trade average cost to purchase a used on w/ VF is $1500
Total outlay for H4X body: $7,195

Phase One DF+ Body only: $5990
Phase One DF+ Body / 80mm LS Lens when purchased with a Refurbished System (during winter Promo ) $3500
Phase One DF+ Body / 80mm LS Lens when purchased with a new or upgrade/trade in $4,000 to $5000

So the Phase One is priced more attractive in all scenarios.

I think if we look at the bundled systems H4D 31,40,50,60 the H4D body you get is probably in the same range as the Phase One DF+;s,
but these bodies cannot be used with anything besides that particular back.

We do have clients who do prefer the H4x and we find them an H1/H2 to trade in . They do not mind paying a premium because they like that system.

So it comes back to you do have options when you are using a MamiyaLeaf or PhaseOne Digital Back.

Lance

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 27, 2012, 03:43:47 AM
Lance,
You are up late!   :)

Thanks for the info.  I am surprised to find out that the Hy6/AFi is actually cheaper than either DF or H4 if bought directly from the factory. Wow!  Most of the kits you'll see include a film back but it's not necessary to order it with that.

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: David Watson on December 27, 2012, 04:27:14 AM
Why not buy a used and guaranteed H3D or H4D camera and back from the Pro Centre in London (a Hasselblad subsidiary).  They have an H3D-2-39 for just under £5000  or an H4D-40 for £7495 and they both include 39/40 MP backs.  It seems to me to be a much better deal than a P1 plus back or an H2 to H4X plus P1 back.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Gigi on December 27, 2012, 09:32:43 AM
Lance,
You are up late!   :)

Thanks for the info.  I am surprised to find out that the Hy6/AFi is actually cheaper than either DF or H4 if bought directly from the factory. Wow!  Most of the kits you'll see include a film back but it's not necessary to order it with that.

Not to be overlooked in the Hy6 system is the excellent focus confirmation, allowing use of the PQ lenses back to the 1990s, and quite avail on the used market. I have a full stable of them (as do several other friends) and they are quite compatible and sharp with current digital backs. Lots of flexibility.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 27, 2012, 02:07:45 PM
To be honest, I really could care less and will rarely ever shoot with a DSLR when going MF (tech camera is where I want to be).  However, my girlfriend is a food and "restaurant lifestyle" photographer.  We presently share (and share in the cost) a good deal of equipment.  Although we plan on both getting a MF system, I would be the first (been in business about 3 years longer) and just wonder if Hassy is actually worth it for her type of work.  If so, I feel that it would not make sense to get a Mamiya system if she is just eventually going to get a Hassy.  She is fixated on the Hassy camera but would rather have a Phase or Leaf back. 

You definitely want to both get the same compatible gear. MFD is as reliable as high end 35MM DSLRs and being able to fall back on each others equipment
is going to be a big benefit.

Also the new Hasselblad backs have a battery attachement and makes them suitable for you tech camera use.
Also the Hasselblad Tilt shift adapter may be useful to you as an architecture photographer.

You should also consider service. Hasselblad has stellar service with fast turn arounds and you can deal directly with them.
There are many postings of Phase/Leaf repairs being problematic, long turn arounds and incomplete repairs.

If you do go with a mixed system.. Hasselblad with IQ or Credo back go through a dealer and make sure they give you a rock solid additional warranty
for the combined camera.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: sgilbert on December 27, 2012, 08:56:47 PM
"There are many postings of Phase/Leaf repairs being problematic, long turn arounds and incomplete repairs."

Are there any satisfied Phase owners, do you think?  Or Hassy owners who've had problems?  Nah;  if there were, Fred would've mentioned them.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: geesbert on December 28, 2012, 04:00:53 AM
My dreadful experience with my leaf AFI taught me not to avoid a camera system that is cobbled together by different manufacturers, who seem not to talk to each other. When something goes wrong, they blame each other rather than trying to work things out.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 04:28:31 AM
My dreadful experience with my leaf AFI taught me not to avoid a camera system that is cobbled together by different manufacturers, who seem not to talk to each other. When something goes wrong, they blame each other rather than trying to work things out.

Exactly my point.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: bcooter on December 28, 2012, 04:36:55 AM
I would love to know the repair numbers or percentages of all professional cameras.

My canons (except one original 1ds) have all had their shutters replaced, (which Canon did very quickly and cost effectively) my Nikons have gone in for a few focus issues (nothing major), one Leica lens for focus alignment, but in the 6 years of my Phase backs I've never had any issue or repair.  None, nada and I shoot a lot of sessions in a day, a lot of images.

(I take that back I had one bad 3rd party firewire cord).

I've only had one issue with software in the first version of 4.0, the rest prior and past were bulletproof.

I also understand the new Hasselblad H systems are robust, with the only issue being that software requires a fast graphics card for processing and tethering.  

I also wouldn't worry about an H system and a Phase back as Phase has a lot of experience with that combination, being they were instrumental in the original digital interface of the H.

Phase does have a dealer oriented support system so the dealer is as important as the product.

Both of the Phase dealers that advertise on this forum can give you straight information on any system, any glitches and both will stand behind the product and for the record I get no special deals from any of these dealers, other than excellent service.

In fact both of these dealers will tell you of any issue before you buy on any product they represent, even if it diminishes their sales.  

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: bcooter on December 28, 2012, 05:12:58 AM
One other thing.

I've had issues in the past with cameras and camera companies and looking back I believe I was too vocal online about the problems.

Not that they didn't happen but I and others should remember that just because someone has an issue, that issue can very well be specific to them or just a few others.

With one 35mm maker I had two new pro bodies have serious issues.  The manufacturer replaced them  with two more bodies that had the same problems and on another forum I reported it.

It was all true, but then again I have a friend that used the same cameras,  shoots as much if not more than I do and pushes his cameras as hard as anyone I know and had zero issues.

I also had a marketing issue with one smaller camera maker and I know it affected my opinion and what i wrote.  That's wrong because whatever the issue, it was between me and them. No one else.

I've said it before, in goggleworld, bad news travels way too fast and seems to stick around way too long.

In todays economy every sale, every dollar is precious and before any of use go nuclear on a brand we should stop and think how it can effect real people and their lives/income.

If someone asks a question and you've had a bad experience it's just as easy to shoot out a private e-mail as it is to advertise it to the world.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm intense and live by the motto of if your a hammer the whole world is a nail, though sometimes it's much better to voice it in private rather than public, because one or two problems doesn't mean everything is wrong or bad.

In the bluntness of forum/blog/twitter talk things can seem much worse than they are.

That doesn't mean that we should purposely hide a problem, but these are not huge conglomerates hiding behind the wizard of oz curtain, these are real people that depend on a limited number of sales to put food on the table.

Just a thought.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 05:43:12 AM
....
My canons (except one original 1ds) have all had their shutters replaced, (which Canon did very quickly and cost effectively) my Nikons have gone in for a few focus issues (nothing major), one Leica lens for focus alignment, but in the 6 years of my Phase backs I've never had any issue or repair.  None, nada and I shoot a lot of sessions in a day, a lot of images.
....

BC

The P series back you have (like the one I had) is built like a tank, quite simple, almost no moving parts.
it's the cameras, lenses and grip that are a problem. You don't use the Phase One DF, your years of experience are with
another camera system... the  Contax 645 as can be seen in the video
where you shot the Phase One Campaign even though the Contax logo was covered.

http://youtu.be/zK7OqKm2xac (http://youtu.be/zK7OqKm2xac)

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Ken Doo on December 28, 2012, 06:04:41 AM
....

Phase does have a dealer oriented support system so the dealer is as important as the product.

Both of the Phase dealers that advertise on this forum can give you straight information on any system, any glitches and both will stand behind the product and for the record I get no special deals from any of these dealers, other than excellent service.

In fact both of these dealers will tell you of any issue before you buy on any product they represent, even if it diminishes their sales.  

IMO

BC

+1.

Oh, and Ebay isn't an authorized dealer (unless an authorized dealer is the seller).   ;)
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Ken Doo on December 28, 2012, 06:10:54 AM
....

If someone asks a question and you've had a bad experience it's just as easy to shoot out a private e-mail as it is to advertise it to the world.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm intense and live by the motto of if your a hammer the whole world is a nail, though sometimes it's much better to voice it in private rather than public, because one or two problems doesn't mean everything is wrong or bad.

In the bluntness of forum/blog/twitter talk things can seem much worse than they are.

That doesn't mean that we should purposely hide a problem, but these are not huge conglomerates hiding behind the wizard of oz curtain, these are real people that depend on a limited number of sales to put food on the table.

Just a thought.

IMO

BC

+1.

It gets old and tiresome really quick.  A hasty generalization is inaccurate, misleading, and not helpful to the forum community.

ken
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 06:56:02 AM
.......
In todays economy every sale, every dollar is precious and before any of use go nuclear on a brand we should stop and think how it can effect real people and their lives/income.
.......

IMO

BC

There are several ways to look at this. Some photographers side with the camera manufacturer (who also happens to be a client) while others choose to
let photographers know about a particular camera systems problems and limitations as well as viable alternatives.


Also flaky cameras can be a real problem to photographers lives and income especially if they are a big investment and much of the marketing is based on exaggerated claims.

Maybe Phase One should think about the livelyhood of photographers when it features a video of a photographer claiming (with a bogus demonstration) that high speed sync is impossible with a DSLR.
This is BS marketing leading a photographer to believe that he or she has to invest huge amounts of money on an MF system rather than simply use a slightly different technique.
And when high speed flash sync has been available on 35mm DSLR cameras for a long time also reaching faster speeds. Not to mention that 35mm DSLR cameras can do it with all the lenses.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=71679.msg568903#msg568903 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=71679.msg568903#msg568903)
Thread on the flash sync issue.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: abiggs on December 28, 2012, 07:26:58 AM
Geez, this gets old.

Fred, I am an African wildlife photographer. I spend many months of my year outdoors in wide open Land Rovers. Heat. Dust. Humidity. My gear gets banged around a bunch. I shoot with a DF, a bunch of Phase and Mamiya lenses ranging from 28mm all the way up to a manual focus Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 APO. I have an IQ160 back.

Everything works for me. I am a satisfied customer. You obviously weren't. You moved on. We get it. The horse is dead and we are tired of your rants. Go out and use whatever equipment you own and make compelling photographs that stir the soul.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 28, 2012, 07:49:33 AM
Hi,

Nice to hear you are happy with Phase and Mamiya ;-)

Best regards
Erik


Geez, this gets old.

Fred, I am an African wildlife photographer. I spend many months of my year outdoors in wide open Land Rovers. Heat. Dust. Humidity. My gear gets banged around a bunch. I shoot with a DF, a bunch of Phase and Mamiya lenses ranging from 28mm all the way up to a manual focus Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 APO. I have an IQ160 back.

Everything works for me. I am a satisfied customer. You obviously weren't. You moved on. We get it. The horse is dead and we are tired of your rants. Go out and use whatever equipment you own and make compelling photographs that stir the soul.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on December 28, 2012, 01:56:00 PM
Today I saw a nice red Ferrari in the yacht club parking bay. I made my normal, first, establishing shot, and when I moved on to take more, the bloody cellphone refused to work, telling me its battery was hungry and wouldn't function without some food. So I've lost a good opportunity of adding some more images to the collection.

Irony? When I returned on my way out from the postprandial stroll, the car was still there, but surrounded by small boys clicking away at the damned thing... 

I don't think a lot of battery-operated cameras of any brand or format.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 03:46:56 PM
Geez, this gets old.

Fred, I am an African wildlife photographer. I spend many months of my year outdoors in wide open Land Rovers. Heat. Dust. Humidity. My gear gets banged around a bunch. I shoot with a DF, a bunch of Phase and Mamiya lenses ranging from 28mm all the way up to a manual focus Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 APO. I have an IQ160 back.

Everything works for me. I am a satisfied customer. You obviously weren't. You moved on. We get it. The horse is dead and we are tired of your rants. Go out and use whatever equipment you own and make compelling photographs that stir the soul.

It does not get old with everyone. I get plenty of messages thanking me for sharing my experience having owned Phase One gear.

Glad to here you are happy so far. Must be a rather recent move for you as there is little mention of your Phase One shooting on your blog.
I can understand you being happy with Phase One as they supply Phase One cameras to you for your private jet luxury photo Safari customers at way under market
rental costs.

For what it's worth I have recommended your Safaris to some of my celebrity clients. I was born in South Africa and lived in Rhodesia and Zambia as well.
Because of that I often get asked about shooting in Africa.

As for this comment of yours:

Quote
The horse is dead and we are tired of your rants. Go out and use whatever equipment you own and make compelling photographs that stir the soul.

You don't have to read my posts. I also don't need condescending comments telling me to go out and take images that stir the soul.

On the subject of stirring the soul just to give other readers here a bit more of an idea what type of photographer I am I recently had
the experience of photographing two wonderful actors. Both times it was right before they passed away, one very unexpectedley . Despite being offered large sums
for the last photos of these two I chose to give them only to their family and as a gift. I can assure you that they stirred the soul.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Analog6 on December 28, 2012, 03:54:40 PM
Take into account that a women will not be able to handheld the Mamiya DF camera for more than 60 seconds.
The Mamiya with two sets of batteries, lens and digital back is much heavier than a complete H4D camera with a lens of similar focal length.
Your choice is easy, if you want to share equipment with another photographer.

I don't have any trouble holding mine for more than 60 secs, and I'm a 59 yr old not very fit woman.  I have a H2/P20 and 50-110 zoom, and believe me, that's the one that's heavy to hold.  My 645DF/Leaf22 & 105-201 is nowhere near as heavy.  Anyway, my monopod is my friend with these MFD big lens combos, and I recommend them to all female togs.  Even with my Canon FF &  long lens the nands get tired and I use the monopod.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 04:30:59 PM
I don't have any trouble holding mine for more than 60 secs, and I'm a 59 yr old not very fit woman.  I have a H2/P20 and 50-110 zoom, and believe me, that's the one that's heavy to hold.  My 645DF/Leaf22 & 105-201 is nowhere near as heavy.  Anyway, my monopod is my friend with these MFD big lens combos, and I recommend them to all female togs.  Even with my Canon FF &  long lens the nands get tired and I use the monopod.

+1 Monopod and tripod are instrumental to high quality images especially for lenses and cameras without image stabilization.

I have windsurfed and kitesurfed all my like hand have the "steel grip" of a windsurfer, huge hands (size 15 shoes), fit 230 lbs, but the monopod is my friend too.

Even hand held.. hanging a carbon monopod with a bit of weight on it like a couple of larger batteries under an MF camera helps stability... a bit like a poor man's steady cam.
I used to attach this Canon charger with a couple of batteries on it to a carbon monopod under the DF. Not much extra weight, but adds stability while keeping mobility.
Great battery life extension too for Phase backs. The charger doubles up as a multiple battery holder as well as being a great dual battery charger.

Here is the charger:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7049/6989119965_ac5ec7cecf_c.jpg)

Also great for keeping batteries warn under your coat when shooting in a very cold climate.

Plenty of them on ebay. Very high quality power supply. Designed for Canons higher end prosumer video cameras.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Steve Hendrix on December 28, 2012, 04:43:14 PM
Take into account that a women will not be able to handheld the Mamiya DF camera for more than 60 seconds.
The Mamiya with two sets of batteries, lens and digital back is much heavier than a complete H4D camera with a lens of similar focal length.
Your choice is easy, if you want to share equipment with another photographer.


I am sorry, this is incorrect.

1.78 KG/3 lbs, 1 Oz - H4D-60 Body, Back, Grip
2.3 KG/5 lbs, 1 Oz - H4D-60 Body, Back, Grip, 80mm HC Lens

1.86 KG/4 lbs, 2 Oz - DF Body, P40+ Back, Grip
2.38 KG/5 lbs, 4 Oz - DF Body, P40+ Back, Grip, 80mm LS Lens

1.9 KG/4 lbs, 3 Oz - DF Body, IQ180+ Back, Grip
2.42 KG/5 lbs, 5 Oz - DF Body, IQ180+ Back, Grip, 80mm LS Lens


With the lens, the systems are within a few ounces of each other. The Phase/Schneider lenses generally weigh less than their Hasselblad counterparts, so unless the female photographer was intending to shoot without a lens, her support strain will be equivalent with either system.


Not discussing the back, is there a real difference in quality?

Would it be worth it to not get the Mamiya add-on when buying a Phase or Leaf Credo, finding a used H1 or H2 and than upgrading to a H4x?


As far as mixing systems, the Leaf and H4X issues are well documented. However, we rent Phase One DB's on H4X cameras all the time, and they work the same way they do on an H1 or H2 camera (operationally). I too am somewhat cautious about mixing and matching systems. However, I feel it is more of an issue with short term upgrading options. If you're the type who intends to use for 3-5-7 years on a system, if it has a track record of working well, I think you're ok, in general. We don't have too many issues with Leaf or Phase users on Contax or Hasselblad V platforms, for example.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on December 28, 2012, 05:08:48 PM
I have windsurfed and kitesurfed all my like hand have the "steel grip" of a windsurfer, huge hands (size 15 shoes), fit 230 lbs, but the monopod is my friend too.



Goodnes me, Fred, is a surfboard really necessary?

Sorry, no offence Fred, just couldn't let than one slip past after eleven at night! Blame the battery that let me down at my Ferrari 'opportunity' today; really did piss me off.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: abiggs on December 28, 2012, 05:21:59 PM
I can understand you being happy with Phase One as they supply Phase One cameras to you for your private jet luxury photo Safari customers at way under market rental costs.

uh huh. Private jets don't land where I go. And I buy all of my gear. No need to make those incorrect remarks.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 28, 2012, 06:15:45 PM
My dreadful experience with my leaf AFI taught me not to avoid a camera system that is cobbled together by different manufacturers, who seem not to talk to each other. When something goes wrong, they blame each other rather than trying to work things out.

You keep posting this about the AFi, and I have to keep posting that your experience is unique and whatever problems you had are not the average experience with this platform.  You come across like Fred and his issues with Mamiya.    Ok you had a 'dreadful' experience but the AFi is not dreadful - its fantastic!   
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 06:47:10 PM
uh huh. Private jets don't land where I go. And I buy all of my gear. No need to make those incorrect remarks.

Oops private planes not private jets.
Never said you didn't buy your own gear, please don't try to imply that I said you didn't.
Said you teamed up with Phase One to supply you and thus to your customers Phase One gear at below camera rental market prices.

Quote
I have teamed up with Phase One and I am running a trip to Namibia alongside good friends Bill Atkinson and Kevin Raber. If you donít already own Phase One medium format equipment, thatís totally ok, as Phase One will be providing cameras and lenses for all participants for a *very* nominal fee of $500.

http://www.theglobalphotographer.com/the-global-photographer/tag/phase-one (http://www.theglobalphotographer.com/the-global-photographer/tag/phase-one)

http://www.andybiggs.com/content.php?page=2012-09-Namibia (http://www.andybiggs.com/content.php?page=2012-09-Namibia)

You are also a PODAS instructor working for Phase One.

I think that it is fair for forum reader to know when information about cameras (especially praise) comes from people very closely associated with the manufacturers
or that work for them. While it qualifies the statements made it also sheds some light on the possibility of the comments being
some what impartial.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: abiggs on December 28, 2012, 06:50:51 PM
Absolutely. The PODAS trip that I lead for them included a Phase One camera system for the duration of the trip. Absolutely true. I took up medium format way before that trip and they asked me to help run a trip for them. Pretty straight forward.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Paul2660 on December 28, 2012, 06:59:27 PM
Fred:

I think that quote is for the Namibia Podas class.   Kevin attends all the Podas classes.  I also believe the 500 dollar cost is standard for all Podas classes however its normally just included in the purchase price of the class.  

However Andy may be structuring another class besides the Podas in Nambia but I thought I remember reading on phaseone's site that Bill Atkinson was attending the Nambia Podas.

Paul



Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: abiggs on December 28, 2012, 07:02:10 PM
Paul, you are correct. I run trips to Namibia most years. My next pair of trips will be in April/May of 2014 and it won't be a PODAS trip.

Ok, back to the topic at hand..
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 28, 2012, 09:32:24 PM
Absolutely. The PODAS trip that I lead for them included a Phase One camera system for the duration of the trip. Absolutely true. I took up medium format way before that trip and they asked me to help run a trip for them. Pretty straight forward.

As most of the instructors have been in MF and Phase gear long before being instructors on PODAS events. I may add like Andy most of us do our own workshops completely separate from PODAS. We are basically hired guns in our respective fields as instructors for those events. None of us work directly for Phase. I'm also a PODAS instructor and I also am partners to run GetDPI workshops. I also do one on one workshops as well. Hmmm that makes me working for hire. That's makes it we are doing shooting gigs and/or instructing gigs. Almost all of us do both.

Kevin Raber is the lead on all PODAS events as he and phase one staff organize there events.



Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 28, 2012, 10:27:03 PM
Geez, this gets old.

Fred, I am an African wildlife photographer. I spend many months of my year outdoors in wide open Land Rovers. Heat. Dust. Humidity. My gear gets banged around a bunch. I shoot with a DF, a bunch of Phase and Mamiya lenses ranging from 28mm all the way up to a manual focus Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 APO. I have an IQ160 back.

Everything works for me. I am a satisfied customer. You obviously weren't. You moved on. We get it. The horse is dead and we are tired of your rants. Go out and use whatever equipment you own and make compelling photographs that stir the soul.

Yup lets get back on topic and your post pretty much endorsing the DF and IQ160 for shooting in the Heat, Dust and Humidity in situations where your gear gets banged around a bunch. I have shot in dusty deserts, windy beaches and sand pits. I have also lived in Africa where I was born. A non weather sealed camera like the DF, it's lenses and removable backs are not designed for these environments.

You say it all works for you, but as of the end of October you had only used this rig for one trip to Africa.

I just want to chime in here for quick second. I spend about 3 months every year out in the African bush, and I am currently shooting with an IQ160 with the following lenses:

28mm
45mm
80mm
75-150mm
300mm f/2.8 APO (manual focus)
2x TC

I have only been on 1 trip to Africa with this rig so far, and I have many opinions on the matter. First of all, ISO 200 really is the limit for me with the IQ160. ISO 400 works, but only if there is ample light and the exposure is dead on. The 300mm APO is a super amazing lens, but manually focusing isn't very enjoyable. I am picking up the 300mm f/4.5 so I have something I can use most of the time.

I am more likely to use 35mm (like a D800) for long lens work and my IQ160 for things that I can shoot with my 75-150mm, and that will make a great combination.

Feel free to email me at [email protected] or we can arrange a call if you have any questions. I am very happy to share what I have learned so far.

While this experience has it's validity for how the camera preformed IQ wise, but hardly long enough to see how these environmental conditions would effect the camera over time and when used in these conditions for more than a few days. Fine dust works it's way into everything that is not specifically designed with weather seals.
I think you are a bit over enthusiastic about the DF as far as weather and environmental hardiness goes.

Pentax on the other hand has far more advanced weather sealing as do the lenses for it.

http://youtu.be/7wPD1wRpels (http://youtu.be/7wPD1wRpels)

http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw (http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw)





 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: abiggs on December 28, 2012, 10:37:52 PM
On that trip I was away for a month, split between wildlife shooting in Botswana's Okavango Delta and the remote deserts of Namibia. And I have shot with Phase One gear on other outdoor trips since 2004 and haven't had any major issues to deal with.

Don't belittle me. It isn't becoming of you. I replied to the thread that your rants get old, and now you turn your attention to me and my word.

This is the end of my contributions to threads you are a part of.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Kitty on December 28, 2012, 11:26:20 PM
Just want to share my experience. My H1 and H2 works very well with P31+, P45+, P65+ and IQ160.
P65+ may not work very well in heat. IQ160 is too new never have any problem yet.
No compatibility issue. Just H body is not very tough. Shutter died every 30-50K actuation.
I heard there is some issue with H body and new Leaf. Never try it.
I still prefer H body and H lens. May be because I get used to and invest on too much.

I really like to upgrade to H4X but cost too much and need to trade one body.
Not sure about shutter actuation life. Is it better than H1/2?
And repairing cost is very high.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Lacunapratum on December 28, 2012, 11:53:46 PM
I'd like to echo Eric's comments on the quality of the Hy6.  Overall it's a top camera platform and the folks in Braunschweig know how to service them.  Quality is excellent, and for those few issues that come up over the years, service is truly excellent.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 29, 2012, 12:26:25 AM
Hi Fred,

It seems that things work well for Andy, that is what he says. Nothing wrong with that. Reliability is pretty much about statistics, if you happen the be the outlier you are in desparate need of good service. On the other with some luck things just work.

What I really don't like is arguing about peoples credibility. You seem to have the opinion that everyone who uses Phase one and works with Phase on PODAS is partial to Phase and therefore lacks credibility. That approach essentially says that the more experience you have the less credible you are, because of involvement. It is quite probable that all of us are partial to:

- The things of choice
- Stuff that works
- Stuff that failed

Things that fail may give stuff bad reputation, but a good vendor can help that to some extent by providing god service/assistance.

You perhaps recall Michael Reichmann's latest expedition to the Antartica where 6 weather sealed Canond 5DII-s failed, also failed have a few Leicas and a Nikon did not survive confrontation with a rock. Sonys and Phase One's worked just fine. At least I person (my best friend) did not buy the Canon 5DII because of the badwill those failures caused. Canon could say, "Hi awfully sorry, we send you a new camera!", but they did not.

Similarly, Michael Reichmann was a bit p_____d of when his Hasselblad H zoom fell apart in Namibia. It was found that many owners of the same lens fared similar. Hasselblad choose to put the blame on the owners. They could just say "Hi awfully sorry, we send you a new lens!", but they did not.

By the way, I have seen a lot of your postings on different threads, they are most helpful.

Best regards
Erik

Yup lets get back on topic and your post pretty much endorsing the DF and IQ160 for shooting in the Heat, Dust and Humidity in situations where your gear gets banged around a bunch. I have shot in dusty deserts, windy beaches and sand pits. I have also lived in Africa where I was born. A non weather sealed camera like the DF, it's lenses and removable backs are not designed for these environments.

You say it all works for you, but as of the end of October you had only used this rig for one trip to Africa.

While this experience has it's validity for how the camera preformed IQ wise, but hardly long enough to see how these environmental conditions would effect the camera over time and when used in these conditions for more than a few days. Fine dust works it's way into everything that is not specifically designed with weather seals.
I think you are a bit over enthusiastic about the DF as far as weather and environmental hardiness goes.

Pentax on the other hand has far more advanced weather sealing as do the lenses for it.

http://youtu.be/7wPD1wRpels (http://youtu.be/7wPD1wRpels)

http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw (http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw)





 

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: abiggs on December 29, 2012, 12:29:51 AM
Similarly, Michael Reichmann was a bit p_____d of when his Hasselblad H zoom fell apart in Namibia.

Oh my, I remember that moment. Michael and I were co-running that Namibia trip back in April 2006. Yes, it was a 'noteworthy' moment, indeed.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 29, 2012, 12:45:02 AM
Forums are difficult places to collect statistics, because when something does go wrong for whatever reason, you hear it loudly on the forums, but for every complainer, there may be hundreds or thousands of people happily shooting away with the same product.   You just can't say what the error rate is from listening to the forums.  

When someone like Michael notes an issue, I tend to believe it.  He clearly states his position and has been very careful to note both good and bad on all items he reviews.  He does not jump from a problem with a piece of gear to a flaw in manufacturing or worse automatically.   I think he's very fair.  However this is not true for some posters.  You have to factor in their angle if you can.  I mean if you read a report that walnuts are healthy for you and then you find out that the Walnut growers association sponsored the study....      

Also even though most complainers will assure the forum public that the fault lies truly with the manufacture, you can't rule out that they fubar'd the thing themselves and just didn't realize it.   One infamous LuLa poster who constantly attacks Phase/Mamiya has gone as far as using the 'conspiracy' word, but maybe he just bumped his poor Mamiya DF with his size 15 feet that he boasts about frequently and just didn't realize it?   :D
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 29, 2012, 01:24:14 AM
Hi,

The way I'm thinking is that there is perhaps 7 cameras of 100 breaking down. That makes for 14 happy owners and for each unhappy one. Or you drop that camera on concrete and it survives without damage. That makes for a happy owner.  So that makes for a sad owner who may post and a happy owner who also may post, than there is a silent majority who has no reason to post.

Best regards
Erik

Forums are difficult places to collect statistics, because when something does go wrong for whatever reason, you hear it loudly on the forums, but for every complainer, there may be hundreds or thousands of people happily shooting away with the same product.   You just can't say what the error rate is from listening to the forums.  

When someone like Michael notes an issue, I tend to believe it.  He clearly states his position and has been very careful to note both good and bad on all items he reviews.  He does not jump from a problem with a piece of gear to a flaw in manufacturing or worse automatically.   I think he's very fair.  However this is not true for some posters.  You have to factor in their angle if you can.  I mean if you read a report that walnuts are healthy for you and then you find out that the Walnut growers association sponsored the study....      

Also even though most complainers will assure the forum public that the fault lies truly with the manufacture, you can't rule out that they fubar'd the thing themselves and just didn't realize it.   One infamous LuLa poster who constantly attacks Phase/Mamiya has gone as far as using the 'conspiracy' word, but maybe he just bumped his poor Mamiya DF with his size 15 feet that he boasts about frequently and just didn't realize it?   :D
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 29, 2012, 01:41:39 AM
Hi,
The way I'm thinking is that there is perhaps 7 cameras of 100 breaking down. That makes for 14 happy owners and for each unhappy one. Or you drop that camera on concrete and it survives without damage. That makes for a happy owner.  So that makes for a sad owner who may post and a happy owner who also may post, than there is a silent majority who has no reason to post.
Best regards
Erik

Erik,
That's totally silly. You have no real data to conclude anything from.  You know the old joke about the word 'assume'?   Just break it up... When you 'assume' you make an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me' and this whole thread too.  ;D

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 29, 2012, 03:10:46 AM
Hi,

It was never intended to be realistic just illustrate how probabilities work. We now that most equipment work but sometimes you are out of lock. When that happens much depends on how the vendor handles the situation.

By the way, Lensrentals do publish some statistics on both repairs and failures: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/09/lensrentals-repair-data-january-july-2012

Most cameras seem to have around 10% repair rate, very often due to bent pins on CF sockets. Average repair cost on Nikon (lenses and cameras) 376$. Tamron fastest on repairs and no costs.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that if you have probabilities against you and get little help you are going to be a dissatisfied customer.

Best regards
Erik
Erik,
That's totally silly. You have no real data to conclude anything from.  You know the old joke about the word 'assume'?   Just break it up... When you 'assume' you make an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me' and this whole thread too.  ;D


Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 29, 2012, 03:22:30 AM
Erik,
I knew you'd find a way to work DSLR's into another MF thread!  j/k.    But lensrental data is DSLR and includes that caused by human error (or big feet?).
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 29, 2012, 03:43:52 AM
Hi,

Lens rentals are rent MF equipment but they publish no statistics for MF (I guess due to low numbers).

The intention was simply to illustrate that there are some statistics. Quite obviously, we have some posters who had bad fortune, but it seems most poster are happy.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,
I knew you'd find a way to work DSLR's into another MF thread!  j/k.    But lensrental data is DSLR and includes that caused by human error (or big feet?).

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 29, 2012, 05:00:52 AM
We would never know real stats on repairs and issues unless it came from the factories repair dept. themselves. Bottom line every system will have have failures or need firmware adjustments in its life cycle just like any software you will buy. I have owned almost every system out there and at some point either something went wrong or needed a update to fix a ongoing issue. I owned Leica M8s that spent months and yes that was plural in Solms and yes that was both cams I owned, without loaners from Leica I was dead in the water. These new D800s not mentioned anywhere here have a serious left side AF issue. My first D800 went in for repair. Luckily I don't use that side anyway the way I shoot. But anyway you can go through every brand out in the market and its just unfortunate that there are problems with every system. My biggest issue with the DF was a freeze up that happened during a certain time frame of its life cycle. A change in firmware and a change in rechargeable batteries cleared that up to a very rare occurrence. My D800e has frozen up 3 times now. No obvious reason either. Turn off back on and seems to recover.

Message here shit happens to them all. Our goal and our job as shooters is always be ready and  prepared for any issue that comes along and have a work around. Stats from forums are inconsistent because its mostly we here of complaints never the its work fine comments as such because what's the point to say its okay for you. Some of us get unlucky and have serious problems. Not fun I admit but its also a lot of user error issues as well and always will be. People buy used gear and expect it to perform as it was bought new. Lets be honest folks we put stuff on eBay cause we don't want to sell it to our forum friends. Remember I own a forum I see this all the time, the crap goes to eBay the nice Leica M 9 goes on LL and GetDPI sales forums. LOL

People also with MF have the nice option which we don't get elsewhere with other systems is having the dealer interface to deal with our issues. I find that a very nice option to call CI or DT and say guys handle this for me for the gear I bought there.

We will never solve the camera, software, reliability issue 100 percent of the time. That's totally unrealistic thinking. All we can do is do our homework when making purchases and listening to folks that have ACTUALLY BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT to get some perspective. Most comments I read are speculative or heavily sided and usually to the negative as most folks with positive experience simply just don't post all is good in the world. It's usually it's what is wrong with it. Unfortunately that is the slant of forums sometimes is a place to vent. Bad stuff happens and you get to say something which is fine also as long as the data is not slanted.

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 29, 2012, 06:08:52 AM
+1

Yes, I heard about the issues with Nikon D800/D800E seems that Nikon needs to improve both quality control and repairs.

Best regards
Erik



We would never know real stats on repairs and issues unless it came from the factories repair dept. themselves. Bottom line every system will have have failures or need firmware adjustments in its life cycle just like any software you will buy. I have owned almost every system out there and at some point either something went wrong or needed a update to fix a ongoing issue. I owned Leica M8s that spent months and yes that was plural in Solms and yes that was both cams I owned, without loaners from Leica I was dead in the water. These new D800s not mentioned anywhere here have a serious left side AF issue. My first D800 went in for repair. Luckily I don't use that side anyway the way I shoot. But anyway you can go through every brand out in the market and its just unfortunate that there are problems with every system. My biggest issue with the DF was a freeze up that happened during a certain time frame of its life cycle. A change in firmware and a change in rechargeable batteries cleared that up to a very rare occurrence. My D800e has frozen up 3 times now. No obvious reason either. Turn off back on and seems to recover.

Message here shit happens to them all. Our goal and our job as shooters is always be ready and  prepared for any issue that comes along and have a work around. Stats from forums are inconsistent because its mostly we here of complaints never the its work fine comments as such because what's the point to say its okay for you. Some of us get unlucky and have serious problems. Not fun I admit but its also a lot of user error issues as well and always will be. People buy used gear and expect it to perform as it was bought new. Lets be honest folks we put stuff on eBay cause we don't want to sell it to our forum friends. Remember I own a forum I see this all the time, the crap goes to eBay the nice Leica M 9 goes on LL and GetDPI sales forums. LOL

People also with MF have the nice option which we don't get elsewhere with other systems is having the dealer interface to deal with our issues. I find that a very nice option to call CI or DT and say guys handle this for me for the gear I bought there.

We will never solve the camera, software, reliability issue 100 percent of the time. That's totally unrealistic thinking. All we can do is do our homework when making purchases and listening to folks that have ACTUALLY BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT to get some perspective. Most comments I read are speculative or heavily sided and usually to the negative as most folks with positive experience simply just don't post all is good in the world. It's usually it's what is wrong with it. Unfortunately that is the slant of forums sometimes is a place to vent. Bad stuff happens and you get to say something which is fine also as long as the data is not slanted.


Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on December 29, 2012, 06:33:00 AM
I hate it when this happens in threads between people I like.

I have no horse in this current bloody race and the closest I can come to complaints is with my beloved 500 Series, where a body seized up solid during an IWS shoot in Malta, and the hotel's man-at-the-desk sent me to a watchmaker in Valletta, a certain Mr Zamit, who proceeded to strip away the covering from around the winding knob and remove some parts to discover that a white plastic washer or circlip had broken. He fashioned a replacement from what I think was some sort of spring wire, and I never - or a least the camera - never looked back. Hasselblad employed plastic on moving parts? The only other flaw was that the tiny, delayed action slider lever on some of the lenses - mainly the 50mm - quite often ceased working and I lost use of the lens for ages each time.

The amusing side? As he was about to strip away the skin from the camera, Mr Zamit smiled, looked at me and said: you're a little uncertain, aren't you? After the event, I could have hugged him. Would I have used an amateur watchmaker? Best not go there or draw parallels.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Paul2660 on December 29, 2012, 08:21:52 AM
Back to Topic:

I have used the mamiya AFD II, III and phase DF on a p45+ and IQ 160.  My thoughts since using the gear in the field since 2008.

Pros:
Built like a tank
Good grip and feel in the hand
slow but most often accurate AF when the supplied 3 AF points work into the shot
good battery life with nimh AA's with latest firmware for body
Never any sync issues with the back


Cons:
Viewfinder to me was always hard to manually focus.  Plenty large but I found coming from a canon setup and. Zork adapter where I always had to manually focus much harder to achieve reliable focus.  Even with the focus loupe which goes in front of the eyepiece. 

Mirror slap and vibration, there are some lenses mainly the med to long telephoto that you cannot use certain shutter speeds due to vibration.  Example 210mm at 1/30 of a sec even on tripod.

Shutter slap/mirror slap issue when camera is vertical on tripod.  Even with mirror lock there are vibration issues with the shutter. Especially noticed when shooting longer exposures.  This issue has been noted more than once on this site.

With a leaf shutter lens you still have to fire both the focal plane and leaf shutter so vibration issues are still possible.

Lack of a modern multi point AF SYSTEM and for the price point of the body this is a big deal. The DF+ seems from reports to acquire faster with more accuracy but it still only has the 3 points right together which might as well be one.

Lenses:

On the mamiya brand the wides are poor 28mm and 35mm mainly due loss of corners i.e. the 28 make a great 35 and the 35 makes a great 45 after you crop out the corners.  The 55mm is stellar.  All the rest of the newer Mamiya D lenses have nothing but great reports.  150mm 75-150mm 45mm and the old non D glass can be excellent like the 210mm. 

It seems the new phase Schneider leaf shutter lenses are very good however until recently your widest solution was the 55mm.  The new 28mm leaf from the test reports I have read shares many of the short falls of the older non LS phase/mamiya 28.  Reports shown on digital transitions website show the 2 are pretty close optically. 

I still own a DF but switched to a tech camera for the wides as most of my work is outdoors and not tethered and the improvements in sharpness with the tech lenses was worth it.   

Never have used any Hassy gear.

One other note capture one is a big plus for the phase raw especially with vr7.  I only wish canon and Nikon would invest the time for their files. 

Paul




Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 29, 2012, 11:57:56 AM
Back to Topic:

I have used the mamiya AFD II, III and phase DF on a p45+ and IQ 160.  My thoughts since using the gear in the field since 2008.

Pros:
Built like a tank
Good grip and feel in the hand
slow but most often accurate AF when the supplied 3 AF points work into the shot
good battery life with nimh AA's with latest firmware for body
Never any sync issues with the back


Cons:
Viewfinder to me was always hard to manually focus.  Plenty large but I found coming from a canon setup and. Zork adapter where I always had to manually focus much harder to achieve reliable focus.  Even with the focus loupe which goes in front of the eyepiece.  

Mirror slap and vibration, there are some lenses mainly the med to long telephoto that you cannot use certain shutter speeds due to vibration.  Example 210mm at 1/30 of a sec even on tripod.

Shutter slap/mirror slap issue when camera is vertical on tripod.  Even with mirror lock there are vibration issues with the shutter. Especially noticed when shooting longer exposures.  This issue has been noted more than once on this site.

With a leaf shutter lens you still have to fire both the focal plane and leaf shutter so vibration issues are still possible.

Lack of a modern multi point AF SYSTEM and for the price point of the body this is a big deal. The DF+ seems from reports to acquire faster with more accuracy but it still only has the 3 points right together which might as well be one.

Lenses:

On the mamiya brand the wides are poor 28mm and 35mm mainly due loss of corners i.e. the 28 make a great 35 and the 35 makes a great 45 after you crop out the corners.  The 55mm is stellar.  All the rest of the newer Mamiya D lenses have nothing but great reports.  150mm 75-150mm 45mm and the old non D glass can be excellent like the 210mm.  

It seems the new phase Schneider leaf shutter lenses are very good however until recently your widest solution was the 55mm.  The new 28mm leaf from the test reports I have read shares many of the short falls of the older non LS phase/mamiya 28.  Reports shown on digital transitions website show the 2 are pretty close optically.  

I still own a DF but switched to a tech camera for the wides as most of my work is outdoors and not tethered and the improvements in sharpness with the tech lenses was worth it.  

Never have used any Hassy gear.

One other note capture one is a big plus for the phase raw especially with vr7.  I only wish canon and Nikon would invest the time for their files.  

Paul






+1 although I will add the 28mm is more like a 31mm and the 35mm is more like a 42mm on Full Frame sensors. On the P40 size sensors and on P45 size its pretty much a non issue with corners. One feature never mentioned is in C1 there is corner sharpness adjustments that do work very well and folks should actually try that. The old 35mm Mamiya lens there is sample variation and been through about 3 of them to get a really good one. All the LS glass is really nice and a lot of the D glass is as well. Not mentioned often is the 300mm AF 4.5 lens which is very well priced and actually quite good/

Again the older Afd II and III are just okay as bodies. Very delayed shutter release and i did have one major failure on a AFDIII. The DF is a lot better in many respects but again the battery issue was well known until some firmware and we figured out better working rechargeable. The DF Plus is said to improve all of these minor annoyances but I have yet to test that. On a scale between the Hassy bodies and Phase bodies I think its a wash at the end of the day. Maybe a slight edge to Hassy but it was never very comfortable to me. When it comes to lenses I think they fair very well together as long as we are talking the more modern D and LS glass. Some of the older lenses are just okay and some very good. To me its a hit and miss and I kind of avoided the old ones in a way. Although the 80 1.9 is got a interesting look to it.
One to the backs i can only truly speak of Phase i owned 5 of them and they are just stellar in almost every respect. Built like tanks and the IQ series is lights out on everyone else PERIOD. Credo is new and also very nice as it emulates a lot of the IQ , something I would look at if I was buying. Hassy has done nothing to improve there functionality in the backs so still old style in my opinion but still very good backs. I try not to speak to much of hassy as i only have shot it a couple of times so i don't want to speculate or sound unfair. They make great systems and you would not have to twist my arm too much to own one. The HY6 body i know there are folks that love them and good for them. It just felt way to awkward for me but again i don't own one so my comments are from a casual use.

The original question which one really comes down to doing your homework on your needs and what fits you the best. You can only determine that by trying both. End of day they both produce amazing image quality so thats only a small factor we all know they are good there. Its the ergos, functions , lens choices and system backup that you have to careful understand before jumping. I heard this before i spent 30k on a Hassy/Phase and no one told me it did not do this or that. My answer you need to do your homework and understand what your jumping into. Its really just that simple

One other very important point to make is the subject of bias towards a system. For many of us its just more a preference to what we like to work with and this word bias is used as a dirty word and I think it is extremely unfair to be calling or insinuating people are bias because they just happen to like something to work with or work with OEMs and or dealers. I honestly have no bias , I have flipped systems on a dime more times than i care to admit and maybe sometimes not the greatest decision but we all look for greener pastures in a system to help us improve our gear. Nothing wrong with that and we should but i sure as hell will not brand my forehead with a Leica logo either. ROTFLMAO

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Paul2660 on December 29, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
Guy good points,  I forgot about the use of those lenses on a cropped sensor and the use of Capture One corner sharpen.  The later I use on all files and it's very handy where as in LR you need to use a mask on the area you want to work on.

Paul
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 29, 2012, 12:41:36 PM
Not discussing the back, is there a real difference in quality?

Would it be worth it to not get the Mamiya add-on when buying a Phase or Leaf Credo, finding a used H1 or H2 and than upgrading to a H4x?

So answering your question Joe. Overall they are very comparable. Some folks like the Phase backs ( myself included) but like working with a Hassy better over the Phase and vice versa. So you really have some options Hassy down the line with back , body and glass , Phase the same way than that 3rd option of mixing Phase with Hassy body and lenses. I suggest get with a dealer that has all three combos and see what fits you the best. Just like Hassy H body does not fit me so well it may fit you much better. Honestly never will know that until you hold them but each system has there pluses and minus which leads to no real answer since end of day its really a wash . It does come down to what compromises you can or cannot make on each system. Some things maybe are not essential to you and some maybe the nail in the coffin. But to say one is better than the other, I'm not so sure there is one better than the other until you makes choices that you need in a system.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 29, 2012, 01:34:52 PM
On the mamiya brand the wides are poor 28mm and 35mm mainly due loss of corners i.e. the 28 make a great 35 and the 35 makes a great 45 after you crop out the corners.  The 55mm is stellar.  All the rest of the newer Mamiya D lenses have nothing but great reports.  150mm 75-150mm 45mm and the old non D glass can be excellent like the 210mm. 

It seems the new phase Schneider leaf shutter lenses are very good however until recently your widest solution was the 55mm.  The new 28mm leaf from the test reports I have read shares many of the short falls of the older non LS phase/mamiya 28.  Reports shown on digital transitions website show the 2 are pretty close optically. 
Paul


There is absolutely no difference between Phase One "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses and Mamiya branded lenses that have equivalent models.
All the Mamiya LS lenses are the same design as the "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses. The Mamiya D lenses are the same as the Phase one non leaf shutter lenses. The only Schneider made lens for the Phase One is the tilt shift lens.
The biggest difference is the sales channel. Mamiya Leaf is sold also through Adorama and BH Photo so you can get much better prices than with Phase One Schneider Branded
lenses. (Best price is over the phone from both Adorama and BH).
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 29, 2012, 01:54:14 PM
I shoot my Hy6 handheld about 95% of the time. But everyone has their own method.  The problem with the Mamiya is it still can suffer from mirror shake shooting on a tripod unless you mirror up and wait.    The Hy6 / AFi is very good wrt mirror dampening.    It's probably the best or one of the best MF cameras to shoot handheld since the mirror is so well damped.  I very often shoot at 1/30 and sometimes as slow as 1/15.   I don't even use the mirror up, but a button is by your thumb in case you want it.   Everyone says this is an expensive platform but in truth I'm not sure sure.  You'd pay more for a DF+ body new than you'd pay for a Hy6 new. Same goes with lenses, I think the new prices are about the same for any of the systems - Leica S even higher.  Just buy direct from the factory, DHW.   If you buy from B&H or one of the other vendors like 9 days HK, you'd pay more since DHW doesn't give anyone any deals unless of course you ask. :-)  It takes about 3 days once you've paid to get your items and regarding service, yes, its an issue, but service is faster than Leica for sure.  The great thing about the AFi is that you can use Capture One software and as was pointed out, a very good lens system.  Plenty of quality lenses on the second hand market, too.

How is shooting vertical (portrait) with the HY6 and Credo/IQ backs that don't have the rotating sensor?

Can the Credo or IQ be mounted vertically?

Is the 90 degree prism still available?
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Paul2660 on December 29, 2012, 02:11:22 PM
Best way to rotate on a DF is a L bracket like the ones from Kirk or really right stuff.  Unless you get the optional v grip. 

On a tech camera, Arca for example, you can easily rotate the back by just rotating the mount plate.  As I shoot about 50% vertical this was a big deal for me as I found the Arca the easiest to rotate in the field.


Paul
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: bcooter on December 29, 2012, 02:51:27 PM
I've used Really Right Stuff L brackets and their ball heads for a long time.

I have one for almost every camera I own and their so smooth and intuitive that after a few sessions going vertical to horizontal becomes second nature.

(http://spotsinthebox.com/contaxphoto.jpg)

If I used the DF I would especially use a RRS L plate since the Phase/Mamiya offesr a right angle grip.

IMO

BC


Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 29, 2012, 03:19:05 PM
There is absolutely no difference between Phase One "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses and Mamiya branded lenses that have equivalent models.
All the Mamiya LS lenses are the same design as the "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses. The Mamiya D lenses are the same as the Phase one non leaf shutter lenses. The only Schneider made lens for the Phase One is the tilt shift lens.
The biggest difference is the sales channel. Mamiya Leaf is sold also through Adorama and BH Photo so you can get much better prices than with Phase One Schneider Branded
lenses. (Best price is over the phone from both Adorama and BH).

Sorry to say the best price comes with working with your dealer that you buy your system from. Besides new you can buy demos, workshop leftovers or used from trade ins. Almost all of the glass I bought came from my dealer as he beat anything I could find elsewhere. Also I get full dealer support for everything I buy. As much as I love B&H and buy many things from them including my Nikon gear they do not handle repairs service or support. They only offer returns and replacements for a couple weeks . At least this has been my experience for the last 3 years or so shooting and buying Phase gear. My dealer usually beat anything around including e-bay which i will not buy much over 1k on ebay or what i am willing to lose on it.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 29, 2012, 10:49:17 PM
Sorry to say the best price comes with working with your dealer that you buy your system from. Besides new you can buy demos, workshop leftovers or used from trade ins. Almost all of the glass I bought came from my dealer as he beat anything I could find elsewhere. Also I get full dealer support for everything I buy. As much as I love B&H and buy many things from them including my Nikon gear they do not handle repairs service or support. They only offer returns and replacements for a couple weeks . At least this has been my experience for the last 3 years or so shooting and buying Phase gear. My dealer usually beat anything around including e-bay which i will not buy much over 1k on ebay or what i am willing to lose on it.

Duh....BH does not sell Phase Gear. Phase One dealers also happen to sponsor your website/forum ;) ;)

Demo isn't new. Normally been handled by many people and "demo" equipment has a really loosely defined definition.

Repairs need to be done by the manufacturer. Either you send it in yourself or you can send it to your dealer.

If your a good customer with BH they make calls for you. When BH is the biggest camera dealer. No company wants to piss it off.
They have been helpful to me more than once. Even from Italy.

I once bought a camera from BH with international warranty. Italian distributor did not want to handle a warrany repair. BH rang up the company
and sorted things out in a beat.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 29, 2012, 10:58:19 PM
Best way to rotate on a DF is a L bracket like the ones from Kirk or really right stuff.  Unless you get the optional v grip. 

On a tech camera, Arca for example, you can easily rotate the back by just rotating the mount plate.  As I shoot about 50% vertical this was a big deal for me as I found the Arca the easiest to rotate in the field.


Paul

I had both the Kirk and the V-Grip. Nice thing about the v-grip bracket is that you can use it with or without the grip. However with the V-grip the thread in the bottom of the v-grip
is a bit weak and not solid... much like the vertical grip for the Canon 5D II
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 30, 2012, 12:18:25 AM
Duh....BH does not sell Phase Gear. Your dealers also happen to sponsor your website/forum ;) ;)

Demo isn't new. Normally been handled by many people and "demo" equipment has a really loosely defined definition.

Repairs need to be done by the manufacturer. Either you send it in yourself or you can send it to your dealer.

If your a good customer with BH they make calls for you. When BH is the biggest camera dealer. No company wants to piss it off.
They have been helpful to me more than once. Even from Italy.

I once bought a camera from BH with international warranty. Italian distributor did not want to handle a warrany repair. BH rang up the company
and sorted things out in a beat.


Once again you keep posting insinuating comments about people and there bias or whatever fits your fancy to post. With that Fred you should know I was a customer of CI years and a load of gear long before they advertise on our site. Once again you turn someone's post negative to go after Phase and anyone that actually uses them. Again your true colors are showing. Dave Galagher is also one of my best friends and damn happy he is. With that I bid this forum goodbye. With you around there is absolutely nothing I want to be involved with here. I will keep my decorum and not post what I really would like to say. But it's really not worth my time to be anywhere when negativity rules the day than helping people. Happy New Year to everyone else.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 30, 2012, 12:40:33 AM
Once again you keep posting insinuating comments about people and there bias or whatever fits your fancy to post. With that Fred you should know I was a customer of CI years and a load of gear long before they advertise on our site. Once again you turn someone's post negative to go after Phase and anyone that actually uses them. Again your true colors are showing. Dave Galagher is also one of my best friends and damn happy he is. With that I bid this forum goodbye. With you around there is absolutely nothing I want to be involved with here. I will keep my decorum and not post what I really would like to say. But it's really not worth my time to be anywhere when negativity rules the day than helping people. Happy New Year to everyone else.

I really don't see why this should upset you. I guessed you missed the wink icons.
You your self said it here. You are recommending your best friends. It likely that you get better service from your best friends.
That's perfectly normal.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: HarperPhotos on December 30, 2012, 01:05:38 AM
Hello Fred,

Personally Fred you do have a propensity to piss people off. Iím not sure if you do it on purpose but be sure you do. Its a shame Guy has decided to leave the forum I just hope you donít alienate any more forum members to such an extent that they do the same.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 30, 2012, 01:44:41 AM
Hello Fred,

Personally Fred you do have a propensity to piss people off. Iím not sure if you do it on purpose but be sure you do. Its a shame Guy has decided to leave the forum I just hope you donít alienate any more forum members to such an extent that they do the same.

Cheers

Simon

I simply pointed out that there is no difference between Phase One Schneider LS lenses and Mamiya LS lenses. Same design and made in the same factory.
I also pointed out that due to different sales channels you can get better prices from big dealers like Adorama and BH.

Despite the fact that just about everyone knows that BH and Adorama have the best prices in the USA for just about everything photographic
Guy chooses to say I'm wrong.

Sorry but I think it is helpful for readers to know that there are many recommendations on these forum are closely related to who
they are recommending. Readers can make their decisions keeping this in mind.

I also find it rather ironic that advocates of Phase One keep going on about how perfect and reliable the gear is, but then insist
that you need a value added dealer for support and repairs. Interesting that Guy chooses to buy his Nikons from BH Photo.

I'm just very matter of fact about this stuff.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Schewe on December 30, 2012, 02:11:07 AM
Sorry but I think it is helpful for readers to know that there are many recommendations on these forum are closely related to who
they are recommending. Readers can make their decisions keeping this in mind.

Yeah ya know, that would work if we had half a clue who you are and what you do...but, you don't bother to provide that info.

Those people who post and use their real name (or at least post a URL) might get away with this sort of post...but you bud aren't one of those sort of people.

Who are you and what creds do you have?

Sorry if this has been asked/answered before but all I see from you is crap. So, are you a real photographer? Do you have a web site? Have you actually taken any useful images in your career?

Really, I want to know cause all I see is a butthead that seems to try to piss people off while hiding behind some sort of nothing-meaning screen name.

So...you got the balls to give us a web site and a real name?  Otherwise I would suggest Mike and Chris simply ban you (and your IP). Seems you've closed down more than your fair share of threads...

Who are you and why should we care? (odds are you'll puntĖbut we'll see).
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 30, 2012, 02:23:21 AM
Hi Fred,

I think you make some insinuations about posters being partial to Phase because of involvement. I would say that all posters have been quite clear about their cooperation with Phase.
I'm pretty sure that PODAS instructors are selected on grounds that they are highly regarded Phase users and also highly regarded photographers. If you check out Guy's web site you see that he has been there and done that.

In my experience, this forum always had a polite tone, having some respect for other posters.

In my view you Fred have posting a lot of good information on several threads, and also this one. Guy is also posting a lot of good information. Now, some information is good, some is bad and some is false. Photography is much about perception, and perception is not always true.

Another factor in this game are tolerances. It is easy to say if something is broken, much harder to tell if it works optimally.

Quite a few years ago Joseph Holmes published an article about precision issues with MFDBs "http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.htm", that was a while ago but I guess the information is still valid. One observation in that article was that used and rental backs were severely off in register distance. Phase tolerance is said to be 12 microns but as far as I recall Joseph has calculated the error to 150 microns in some cases. Those problems happen, and it is my understanding that a value added reseller can help with that. I guess that they may do some testing and send stuff that is not in good shape back to Phase for adjustment. If you have problems they help resolving, and I got the impression that almost all problems can be solved.

I'm pretty sure 135 equipment is not much better. Lloyd Chambers has found issues with most (?) of his Nikons. Zeiss is selling Comapct Prime lenses to the cine industry at ten times the prices for ZF 2.2 lenses. They are the same lenses, but in a different mount and I guess with tighter tolerances. Getting back to MFD, Lloyd Chambers had Hasselblad for testing on loan from B&H and one of the two lenses he had was badly decentered. One of the lenses for the Leica S2 he tested had an aperture malfunction.

In a sense, 135 must have tighter tolerances as they have wider aperture lenses. An f/1.4 lens requires half the tolerance compared to an f/2.8 lens (simple geometry).

Best regards
Erik


I simply pointed out that there is no difference between Phase One Schneider LS lenses and Mamiya LS lenses. Same design and made in the same factory.
I also pointed out that due to different sales channels you can get better prices from big dealers like Adorama and BH.

Despite the fact that just about everyone knows that BH and Adorama have the best prices in the USA for just about everything photographic
Guy chooses to say I'm wrong.

Sorry but I think it is helpful for readers to know that there are many recommendations on these forum are closely related to who
they are recommending. Readers can make their decisions keeping this in mind.

I also find it rather ironic that advocates of Phase One keep going on about how perfect and reliable the gear is, but then insist
that you need a value added dealer for support and repairs. Interesting that Guy chooses to buy his Nikons from BH Photo.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on December 30, 2012, 02:23:42 AM
Jeff,
He's Fred Greissing,  did some decent hollywood type photo work, maybe still does but I can't imagine anyone would want to work with a person who has his negativity dial set to 10 all the time.   It's a shame because his work looks like he'd have a lot of knowledge to share from his experiences but instead he wastes everyone's time with the negativity.  I'm ignoring him so maybe's he's ignoring me, but he's not taking any of the many hints people are giving him. 

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 30, 2012, 02:29:55 AM
+1

Fred seems to make a lot of good postings on other threads. He seems to be somewhat partial Fuji 68GX, by the way.

Best regards
Erik

Jeff,
He's Fred Greissing,  did some decent hollywood type photo work, maybe still does, but is quickly loosing all respect he might have gotten with his attack posts. It's a shame because his work looks like he'd have a lot of knowledge to share from his experiences but instead he wastes everyone's time with the negativity.  
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Schewe on December 30, 2012, 02:33:44 AM
He's Fred Greissing,...

Oh goodie...his Facebook says his fav quote is "Oh Shit"...

That's useful...

Oh, did you notice he's "sponsored" by Tamrac?

Yeah, that'll buy you tons of cred...

NOT!

Sorry, doesn't really say "listen to me, I know my shit"...

Ya know?
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on December 30, 2012, 04:54:13 AM
You know, some of you guys should grow up. You find it fun to round on one guy who tells it like he's found it, and then because his view doesn't suit your own agendas you turn him into a witch.

Eric Kaffehr made a very good assessment a couple of posts ago, level-headed and controlled. Why not take a lead from him if you like to follow someone else in these matters?

Sitting here on this wee island, reading this stuff, the world-view many of you project out of your own society isn't a very pretty one at all. It comes over as quite vicious, almost bullying. I've been in the victim situation myself and I read the signs of gathering intent easily.  As in my own case, offering an open challenge to battle every single one of the mothers in the gym on an individual basis did nothing; the pack attack was always the rule. Just like the hyaena, then.

Many years ago, not long after I started to take an interest in LuLa, I opened a thread on photographic styles and mentioned the then 'star' LaChapelle; before I knew it, I had a long list of people crying for my blood, most of them having never read my original proposition, but taking up the cudgels from a baseline of the immediate post before their own. Someone even opened a thread purposely designed to attack me, personally and by name. That's the beauty of the Internet: irresponsibility and freedom to strut crap whenever the mood takes.

LuLa's moved on from there; live and let live, and if you don't like an expressed view, say why and offer a good reason to suppot your alternative opinion. But don't get personal because in the end, the only person you discedit is yourself.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on December 30, 2012, 04:58:35 AM
Oh goodie...his Facebook says his fav quote is "Oh Shit"...

That's useful...

Oh, did you notice he's "sponsored" by Tamrac?

Yeah, that'll buy you tons of cred...

NOT!

Sorry, doesn't really say "listen to me, I know my shit"...Ya know?



True; but his photography does,

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 30, 2012, 05:44:01 AM
Oh goodie...his Facebook says his fav quote is "Oh Shit"...

That's useful...

Oh Shit... is my favorite quote because it was what me and a good friend said to each other on a memorable day
kite surfing a giant swell in Malibu. We said that as a big wave peeled off the other reef. We both rode the wave and with a good dose of luck
made it to the beach. Once we made it to the we looked at each other and guess what we said... Oh Shit... but this time the smile was bigger.

I think that if anyone else here has surfed a 25 foot wave during an epic south swell in Cali they would understand why I like that quote.

It was never intended to be useful.

When ever I meet the same friend at the beach and conditions are looking like a hand full and a lot of fun we look at each other and say... Oh Shit... with a smile.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Gel on December 30, 2012, 06:21:04 AM
I love it when bored togs network on forums at Christmas.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Anders_HK on December 30, 2012, 07:08:40 AM
How could anyone miss your irritating little winks that go glove in hand with your irritating little put-downs.

It's a damn shame Guy is leaving the forum.

Frankly I understand him and am in much same direction; a reduction on my behalf to rarely reading any thread headings here nowadays, and some limited reading posts.

Why?

Why waste time???

- FrankBGG
- Posters constant argue DSLR (35mm kind) is quality same as MFDB and few have even worked much if anything using MFDB, and some(one) occasional constant argue DSLR (35mm kind) stitching vs MFDB
- Attacking when one writes to advise on MFDB or medium format camera.

Above change on LuLa has occurred over the last 2-3 years or so,  during an increase in pixels of DSLR (35mm kind) which seeming have made people go blind om pixels, and has made LuLa into much a waste to spend time by certain character of posters indicated by my above dragging you deeper and deeper. Many folks seem frank much too blinded on marketing volume of Nikon, Canon and the likes in my humble opinion...

Above said, there are still numerous respectful gents and girls on LuLa who have been here for many years and who and whos writings I much appreciate and respect. It is a shame really that the forum is not maintained proper by Micheal et. al. for it to remain more mature and in order.

Going back to OP, and the actual point I looked at this thread; Hassy vs. Mamiya. When looking at a system, I suggest doing a search of images shot with lenses using the different systems. I had Mamiya 645 system with a Leaf back prior and I gave up on Mamiya because I became flat tired of their products, lack of tolerances, problem with support from Japan. Also the newest 645DF+ stem from an ancient and poorly designed camera. Also the newest LS lenses look like toys. The 45mm D was the sharpest of the Mamiya lenses I had but lacked in character. The 80mm 1.9 N was actually my favorite. Now I use Rolleiflex Hy6 with 80MP back, and the Rolleiflex Schneider 80mm 2.8 PQ Xenotar AFS is the best lens I have used. It is very sharp even wide open, and the character of the bokeh is smooth. If I need more shallow DOF I attach an extension ring and move closer, but I admit really difficult to focus personal images with our little moving baby daughter in front of camera and such shallow DOF! Do a search of images shot with that Xenotar on flickr.com / flickriver.com, say by typing in '6008 80mm Xenotar 2.8', and then 'Mamiya 80mm LS' and 'Hasselblad 80mm HC'. Looking at the bokeh, the Xenotar is best to my eyes, with the Hassy 80 HC second to my eye. The Mamiya LS 80/2.8 with glass made by Schneider seem surprising to lack the fine fine out of focus rendering of the Scheider Xenotar. Also... not having used the H camera, it looks light years ahead comfortable than the Mamiya cameras. Do take a look at the Hy6, it is a superb camera and system (search for my writing on it elsewhere on this forum). All the Rolleiflex lenses frank seem very top notch ahead of Hassy and Mamiya. Not even the Leica M Noctilux of Summilux have as smooth bokeh.

Just my 2c...

Happy New Year to the good people still around here :)

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Stefan.Steib on December 30, 2012, 07:15:23 AM
I enjoy Fredīs postings - he is making this forum a lot more colorful and this is what makes things interesting.
As much as  being "nice" may sound "nice", telling opinions makes life more easy and defines what we are looking for.
People who never struggle or go square are simply boring.
Arenīt here grownups speaking ? I know there are netiquette rules and this is important.
But telling each other how nice we find the other one is not a conversation that makes much sense to me.
Fred has his opinion and he stands to it.
I think this is good ! I wish more people would do this.Would make life a lot easier and clearer.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 30, 2012, 07:38:35 AM
I think a few people need to calm down here.....

My response to Guy ... the one with the two winks was not some evil attack like some want to
make it look like.

Seeing he directly rebutted a posting I had made recommending Adorama or BH for good prices on Mamiya lenses that are the same
design as the Phase One lenses that are actually made by Mamiya I responded.

His answer started with a rather condescending Sorry..... and then he goes on about Phase Gear when I was recommending BH and Adorama for Mamiya gear.

If BH and Adorama are so bad .... why are they Leaf Mamiya dealers?

Why is it so OK to buy Nikon gear from them and not MF gear from them.

Does Mamiya Leaf not service gear sold by them. As far as I know they do.

I pointed out that he is sponsored by who he is recommending.
The only relationship I have with BH is that of a customer.
I have been a BH customer for over 20 years.
I simply think that it is fair that readers, especially those that are new to the forum or simply guests to know
if someone is recommending someone that pays them to advertise their product or services. Especially if that person is
contradicting another persons suggestion.

No several other forums I go to there is a rule about "pimping" (their words not mine) gear. If a member has any affiliation or sponsorship
it has to be in their posting signature. It is that way on forums of many different fields such as performance sports equipment, racing bikes etc.
Could be a good idea for these forums.

Hey mine could be ex-Phase One user.

I think that readers like to hear both sides as this is called a DISCUSSION FORUM.

I was sponsored for many years by Polaroid for shooting 8x10 Polaroid for main stream fashion and beauty editorials.
I certainly received special treatment as a result of that. My only endorsement was to have my photo credit read
"Polaroid by" instead of "Photo by". However that is a thing of the past as Polaroid no longer makes 8x10 instant film.
I also used Polaroids for ads.... actually saved my ass once when the film got mangled. Client was happy with the Polaroids, but it was a sort
of abstract type of image that lent itself well to the Polaroid look.

While some want to paint me as being negative... I think I have done my fair share of helping... including Jack (Guys partener on GetDPI.com) regarding an Elinchrom sale.
He had received an inquiry from from a buyer in Singapore. but the Elinchrom Micro that he was selling unlike some other Elinchrom products
is not self detecting dual voltage or dual voltage at all. Understandable confusion. The USA runs on 110 60hz. Singapore runs on 220 50hz. I hastely pointed this out
avoiding nasty return shipping costs and a potential accident. Shipping studio lights to Singapore and back isn't cheap. I hate to see
that happens if a 3000w/s flash pack gets plugged into 220 v instead or 110v. Very fast recycle time.... and a bang... yikes.
I was pretty sure about this as I had Elinchrom packs in Europe that
could not be used here in the US (had to buy new ones) so seeing I had the email for a tech guy at Elinchrom in Switzerland I checked and they confirmed that they had never made
a dual voltage Micro AS pack.

here are the photos I took of my packs for him in case his sticker had come off his pack.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7086/7246075162_4b4d60482b_c.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7229/7246078994_48c13e359a_c.jpg)

Still sitting on my flickr account.

Well I'm done scanning film for the night.....
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 30, 2012, 08:19:13 AM
I have to disagree; one of the strengths of this forum is the hands-off approach of the owners and moderators.

Fred is an accomplished photographer and I value his input, but draw the line when by implication he questions the honesty and integrity of his peers.


Exactly my point and thank you. In this thread alone he has done this with at least 2 working Pros that just happen to be both PODAS instructors, run there own workshops, one a owner of another forum , one a producer of camera bags. Plus both Phase shooters that happen to like there gear they use. I will not tolerate these kinds of integrity crap. It's bullshit and we all know it. It just so happens the owner of this forum and partners are PODAS instructors , run there own workshops are Phase shooters and are working  Pros. I can add Jeff Schewe to this mix here as well. It's these underlining we are on the take stuff that is intolerable . I will not continue to post anywhere when my words are twisted by a Troll for his own benefit and twist them into lies and misinformation. I will also always stand by other working Pros when I see them being slammed for no other good reasons as well.

BTW B&H also is a affiliate on my forum and I been buying from them for over 40 years as I grew up in the New York area and attended the School of Visual arts there back in 1976. I visit the store every time I'm back in NY. Most amazing photo store in the world. Guess I'm bias about that too and yes I do make some income from that . Maybe a hot dog per week. LOL
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: JoeKitchen on December 30, 2012, 08:24:12 AM
When the hell did this go nuclear?  Thanks for the advice, those who actually shared advice.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on December 30, 2012, 08:48:18 AM
Hi,

I agree with Keith on all issues.

I would just add that asking opinions on Hasselblad vs. Phase/Mamiya before spending 20000$ or so is a very smart thing.

The other issue I'm quite serious about everyone having the right to present an opinion without her or his integrity be put to question.

Best regards
Erik


I have to disagree; one of the strengths of this forum is the hands-off approach of the owners and moderators.

Fred is an accomplished photographer and I value his input, but draw the line when by implication he questions the honesty and integrity of his peers.

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Gel on December 30, 2012, 09:28:46 AM
HEY GUYS! I'M BAAACK!

I've got beer and twizzlers for everyone, I even found somewhere that had twinkie's!

Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ndevlin on December 30, 2012, 10:07:51 AM
Fred,

I feel someone needs to say this to you in a non-confrontational manner: your tone on this thread has really offended a number of members, several of whom are very accomplished professionals whose presence here is a real value to the LL community.  Based on your last post, I assume this was not your intention.  Clearly, you have strong feelings about the subjects contained in your posts on this thread, and enjoy expressing them. That's fine.

What's not fine is continuing in the same way when it has become clear that your actions have offended others.  The normal, socially appropriate response of one who has unintentionally offended others whom he respects is to express concern and regret,  to clarify that no offense was meant, and to modify his expressive approach to avoid a repeat. 

Dealers are not all crooks, camera makers are not schysters, and few if any photographers are 'bought' mouth pieces for manufacturers.  In fact, on reflection, most photographers have commercial relationships with companies *because they like and trust the product from their own use*, not because they get some gear at less-than-retail from it.  You can't seriously think that Andy or James Russell have compromised their independence or judgment by doing business with camera makers as client. Being a working professional yourself, you know this.   

I'd like you to stay on the forums as a constructive voice, but an apology is needed, whether you think so or not.  You have offended valued, senior members of this community to the extent they contemplate leaving the forum.  By doing that, you harm the community you seek to contribute to.  You may genuinely feel you have done nothing wrong and that others are too thin-skinned. That's fine. But if you are the gentleman I hope and imagine you to be, righting the unintended slight, not proving you're in the right, should be your immediate priority.

Regards,

- N.


ps. Joe: you got hijacked in the worst way. My 2c: Hassy cameras (H4 and H5) have an advantage with Truefocus for studio work, and offer more leaf shutter lenes.  The phase backs offer a look and feel and operation that many prefer. Their backs are also likely more versatile for tech camera use. Beyond that, it's mostly a matter of personal taste and where you get the best deal. 
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on December 30, 2012, 12:24:17 PM
...or we could throw our toys out of the pram and "quit" the forum, perhaps?

 ;)

Damn, those irritating little winks are catching.


We could indeed, Keith, but doing that demands the right reasons. Last time I did that was without any personal attack aimed at myself. The reason I did it was I got sick of the bitterness in the 'financial disaster' threads that were running, the caustic and sarcastic language (often poorly done which, in a sense, made it worse) used, and the realisation that if I ever wanted to do anything with my time that was better than sitting on my ass before a monitor, then I had to get a life beyond it. Then, looking around for a few weeks, I concluded that there was no winter life out here, just more expats with gout, cigars and a liking for beer. Hobson's friggin' choice! Hell, even the jazz sessions were stopped because of lack of bodies to sell drinks to in the bars... as someone said, Muerto Pollensa.

Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone still working in the profession has the time to get involved on Internet chat shows such as we do here; when I was still working, when I had downtime my only desire was to go find some new work to pay the bills! Times seem to have changed, or snappers got richer.

By the way - the toys never left the pram; I learned that the hard way some years ago. Keep everything; you never know when it might come in useful. God bless you, 500 Series, and please forgive me for throwing you out - I want you back!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on December 30, 2012, 04:22:15 PM
Exactly my point and thank you. In this thread alone he has done this with at least 2 working Pros that just happen to be both PODAS instructors, run there own workshops, one a owner of another forum , one a producer of camera bags. Plus both Phase shooters that happen to like there gear they use. I will not tolerate these kinds of integrity crap. It's bullshit and we all know it. It just so happens the owner of this forum and partners are PODAS instructors , run there own workshops are Phase shooters and are working  Pros. I can add Jeff Schewe to this mix here as well. It's these underlining we are on the take stuff that is intolerable . I will not continue to post anywhere when my words are twisted by a Troll for his own benefit and twist them into lies and misinformation. I will also always stand by other working Pros when I see them being slammed for no other good reasons as well.

BTW B&H also is a affiliate on my forum and I been buying from them for over 40 years as I grew up in the New York area and attended the School of Visual arts there back in 1976. I visit the store every time I'm back in NY. Most amazing photo store in the world. Guess I'm bias about that too and yes I do make some income from that . Maybe a hot dog per week. LOL

That is quite an accusation.

While I apologize for how my rather matter of fact postings may have been taken the wrong way but accusing me of lying and to my own benefit
is a pretty harsh accusation. I have never accused you of lying. I also don't see how any of this is to my benefit. My clients don't read these forums.
If anything my presenting other options (that are often less expensive) to photographers benefits my competition if anything.
I also recall a while ago we had both discussed the Nikon 200mm f2 and that you were getting one. I recall that at the time you wanted one.
I too was looking for one and I remember asking you if you were thinking of bidding on one that was for sale and I asked you if you were interested
in it too because I did not want to bid against you. I did not need one with any urgency.

As for your affiliation to Phase One, their dealers and BH I think that it is also a good thing and I have not questioned it as being dishonest
in any way. However I think that a clear statement of one's affiliation in one's signature would be good think, especially for readers that are new
to the forums or are passing guests looking for information. Ones affiliations are also a good thing. While it is a good disclosure it is also qualifying in that
it indicates that one has a good line towards information and is a good candidate to approach for information. The disclosure part of it I think
lets the reader who is making an important decision use the information more effectively.

Regarding the BH affiliate program it is quite effective and used by many websites.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73668.0;attach=72157 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73668.0;attach=72157)

Quote
B&H Affiliate Program

Join today and begin earning commission on every product we sell!

No cost to join.
Monthly commission.
Low minimum payout of $20.
Ready to use banners.
Reports include items sold.

Weíll Pay...
Monthly commission begins at 2% with the possibility for increased percentage based upon performance. In addition, we offer 8% commission on a growing list of about 2000 products from any of the following brands:

Audio Engine
Bolt
Bose
Helder
Impact
Kopul
Magnus
Oben
Pearstone
Ruggard
Sound Device
Vello
Watson
Xcellon
Xuma


It is a nice way to support your favorite forums and bloggers.

2% on sales can add up nicely. Guy has a banner right on his website. Just go to BH through that banner
before putting anything in your basket. Costs you nothing as far as I know.

If he has this affiliation buying $ 5000 worth of gear lets you pass on to him (or other sites) $ 100.

(http://www.getdpi.com/ad_buttons/BHbutton.gif)
don't click this... it's just an image. You need to go to his site.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: geesbert on January 01, 2013, 04:12:24 AM
If at all something needs to get banned from this forum it's those daft smileys. If your language skills are not adequate to show you're in a ironic mood, adding a yellow little twinky can be overseen too easily
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on January 01, 2013, 05:40:24 AM
If at all something needs to get banned from this forum it's those daft smileys. If you're language skills are not adequate to show you're in a ironic mood, adding a yellow little twinky can be overseen too easily


Fair enough, but this is an international forum and I think it's unrealistic to expect all contributors to have the same standard of ability in the lingua franca: English.

I don't like these 'characters' either, but if they can help to differentiate insult from inadequacy of language, so much the better, and I'd hate to have people refrain from posting simply on grounds of language ability. The only thing I find offensive about the way some write is the intentional lack of respect for conventions, such as the use of i where it should be I. That's just sloppy and inexcusable.

To, too and two are hardly challenges any more than there and their; it would be more pleasant were they not abused.

Other than that, I think we do very well here. I seldom come across posts I can't understand, other than from technical perspectives, of course, which happens often. The thrill of digital.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: TMARK on January 01, 2013, 04:53:28 PM
I appreciate Fred's posts. He does have an ax to grind, but if you strip away some of that his comments are informative. Besides, it's valuable to have a view point challenged. It can reaffirm your opinions or even change them, even if you think Fred's opinions are BS.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: colorspace.am on January 02, 2013, 02:44:32 AM
How is shooting vertical (portrait) with the HY6 and Credo/IQ backs that don't have the rotating sensor?

Can the Credo or IQ be mounted vertically?

Is the 90 degree prism still available?

There's no IQ back. The Credo can, in very much the same fashion as the non rotating Aptus does, or the 4560.

And yes - the high eye point VF is still available. I think they retail for around 1100 ..I have the price knocking around somewhere from DHW.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on January 02, 2013, 01:58:28 PM
There's no IQ back. The Credo can, in very much the same fashion as the non rotating Aptus does, or the 4560.

And yes - the high eye point VF is still available. I think they retail for around 1100 ..I have the price knocking around somewhere from DHW.

Excellent. Great to see Leaf and DHW working together on this.
How is the 90 degree high eyepoint viewfinder with a bigger back on. (digi backs are bigger than the DHW film backs).
Being high eyepoint I'm guessing its a nice fit with a digi back.
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: EricWHiss on January 02, 2013, 02:22:50 PM
I appreciate Fred's posts. He does have an ax to grind, but if you strip away some of that his comments are informative. Besides, it's valuable to have a view point challenged. It can reaffirm your opinions or even change them, even if you think Fred's opinions are BS.

TMARK,
I wish I could agree with you on the above as much as I have with nearly everything you post.  I know your thinking, but I feel he's insincere and insulting and mostly trying to knock others and companies down to make himself look better, to prop up his own ego.   Even when he tries to post a positive comment on other's work he finds a way to show he thinks he could have done better.  When he asks others about gear, its all a trap, because he isn't truly interested, he's just baiting people to toss out something he can criticize or knock down in some way later.   It's possible that I got overloaded with negativity from the last months of the political election cycle, but that amount of it in Fred's posts doesn't sit well with me.

I didn't make any real resolutions this year except to get digital negatives working for me, but maybe I should take a break from the forums for a while?
Eric

Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: MarkoRepse on January 02, 2013, 03:28:21 PM
How is the 90 degree high eyepoint viewfinder with a bigger back on. (digi backs are bigger than the DHW film backs).
Being high eyepoint I'm guessing its a nice fit with a digi back.

No problem at all. Its mirror based though which makes it really light, but the viewing angles are a bit more limited. But the view is massive, really nice!

... but maybe I should take a break from the forums for a while?
Eric

Maybe not a bad idea unfortunately...
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 02, 2013, 03:36:29 PM
Hi,

I have mixed feelings. I have seen many posts by Fred, and I really think he tries to be helpful.

My view is that it is OK to share our views, but we need to have respect for the views of others. I don't feel it is OK to put anyones credibility in question.

Best regards
Erik

TMARK,
I wish I could agree with you on the above as much as I have with nearly everything you post.  I know your thinking, but I feel he's insincere and insulting and mostly trying to knock others and companies down to make himself look better, to prop up his own ego.   Even when he tries to post a positive comment on other's work he finds a way to show he thinks he could have done better.  When he asks others about gear, its all a trap, because he isn't truly interested, he's just baiting people to toss out something he can criticize or knock down in some way later.   It's possible that I got overloaded with negativity from the last months of the political election cycle, but that amount of it in Fred's posts doesn't sit well with me.

I didn't make any real resolutions this year except to get digital negatives working for me, but maybe I should take a break from the forums for a while?
Eric


Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: Rob C on January 02, 2013, 05:09:39 PM
Fortunately, in cyberspace, it's never too late to let go.

Rob C
Title: Re: Hassy vs. Mamiya
Post by: FredBGG on January 06, 2013, 01:15:04 PM
No problem at all. Its mirror based though which makes it really light, but the viewing angles are a bit more limited. But the view is massive, really nice!

Mirror based "prism type" viewfinders are great. Especially for larger formats as it does keep them light and you get a nice contrasty image.
Regarding the viewing angle it's not really because it's mirror based, but because of the enlargement of the focusing screen.
I have a bit of the same problem with the Fuji gx680 mirror angle finder. I found a great heavy eyecup that really helps
with this type of finder. It's called the bisley scope maximizer. It's actually made for increasing aiming accuracy with high end air rifle scopes.
It's very anatomic and heavy/rigid enough to make it much easier to keep your eye centered. It also significantly increases camera stability when had held
as well as centering your eye when hand held. The Bisley has an internal diameter of 1.25 inches.

Bisley
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bisley-SCOPE-MAXIMIZER-Eye-Piece-Extension-Telescopic-Sight-Shooting-Airgun-/230863411883?pt=UK_SportingGoods_Hunting_ShootingSports_ET&hash=item35c0881aab (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bisley-SCOPE-MAXIMIZER-Eye-Piece-Extension-Telescopic-Sight-Shooting-Airgun-/230863411883?pt=UK_SportingGoods_Hunting_ShootingSports_ET&hash=item35c0881aab)

Video
http://youtu.be/Y0PUD_oOkB0 (http://youtu.be/Y0PUD_oOkB0)


DG Scope enhancer
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOPE-ENHANCER-BY-DG-DESIGNS-/380435158857?pt=UK_SportingGoods_Hunting_ShootingSports_ET&hash=item5893b3d749 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOPE-ENHANCER-BY-DG-DESIGNS-/380435158857?pt=UK_SportingGoods_Hunting_ShootingSports_ET&hash=item5893b3d749)

Video
http://youtu.be/XhV8UCh9Lbg (http://youtu.be/XhV8UCh9Lbg)