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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 11:40:10 am

Title: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 11:40:10 am
I've been using LR4 for a while and I must say I simply cannot get used to its file handling model. I'm really much more comfortable with a Win Explorer directory structure which has worked fine for me for many decades, even with gigantic quantities of data.
Two things are driving me absolutely nuts right now.

1) Given an "imported" folder, supposedly containing all its sub-folders, why can I only see some and not others? I see files which are present in sub-folders actually displayed as loose in the imported root folder. For example I have a folder called (for example) ROOT with sub-folders \NEF and \ORF. Yet the library structure shows  ROOT to contain a sub folder NEF and loose ORFs (the ORF sub-folder isn't shown). Uh? I tried deleting the original entry and re-importing but I get variants of this behaviour (ie some sub-folders not displayed) no matter how I structure the content. I just wasted about two hours on this.

2) And how the hell do you actually SEARCH for a file in this program? The help function (hah!) leads me to expect a "text" filter but I'm completely unable to locate any such function. Again, I've wasted hours trying to "develop" a file which I can see in Explorer but am completely unable to locate within a relatively small set of files in the "ROOT" directory.

This tendency of every application these days to want to take over your entire life is extremely unhelpful. I just want LR to handle the RAW file processing, not organise my files. I can do that without help - well or otherwise. I just noticed too, that alone amongst applications, it seems to be impossible to direct files to open in LR from the file system (ie allocating a default application.) Perverse.

Advice appreciated.

Roy

EDIT. LR simply isn't seeing any of the newly imported files or folders named or containing ORFs. Existing folders and files are still displayed correctly. Now a couple of days ago I installed the Win codec pack which is supposed to display Olympus RAW thumbnails in Explorer: it doesn't. Could this be an associated bug? Any idea how to de-install this codec pack without rolling the entire OS back, which I'm reluctant to do?
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 16, 2012, 11:58:23 am
A couple of tricks for you. In the Folders panel, learn to right click folders and choose "Show Parent" or "Hide Parent" to show more or less of the folder structure. This will help you out with 1.

Searching is often in the Library menu - Library, Filter by Metadata > Enable Metadata Filter. Or Ctrl F or "\" for short. It then depends on your entering metadata such as keywords for it to find.

Lightroom is very much about organising as well as adjusting. Once you stop fighting that, you may find it easier.

John
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: kaelaria on December 16, 2012, 12:08:02 pm
LR is also not a 'handle-all' type program like Explorer.  It's for photos, nothing else. 
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 12:10:44 pm
LR is also not a 'handle-all' type program like Explorer.  It's for photos, nothing else. 
Believe it or not, this is not news to me. Neither is it helpful. But I hope you now feel that you're day hasn't been wasted.
Roy
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 16, 2012, 12:11:30 pm
"Any idea how to de-install this codec pack without rolling the entire OS back, which I'm reluctant to do?

Don't. Lightroom does not make use of these codecs.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 12:12:35 pm
A couple of tricks for you. In the Folders panel, learn to right click folders and choose "Show Parent" or "Hide Parent" to show more or less of the folder structure. This will help you out with 1.

Searching is often in the Library menu - Library, Filter by Metadata > Enable Metadata Filter. Or Ctrl F or "\" for short. It then depends on your entering metadata such as keywords for it to find.

Lightroom is very much about organising as well as adjusting. Once you stop fighting that, you may find it easier.

John
Can you suggest any reason why, when importing a directory group, some sub-folders are displayed and not others? This seems incomprehensible to me.
Roy
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 16, 2012, 12:19:22 pm
Can you suggest any reason why, when importing a directory group, some sub-folders are displayed and not others? This seems incomprehensible to me.
Roy
Assuming you are importing a folder and its subfolders and don't untick any items in the Import dialog, LR then displays all folders containing photos but not those only containing other types of files.

John
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 12:46:48 pm
Thanks for the help John.
By flushing out a lot of the previous tests and re-importing the offending set of files I'm some of the way toward getting done what I started hours ago. Clearly having the same files present in more than one location is part of the problem. Confusingly, when this is the case, LR omits even the directory in question!

But there are still "features" that are making me really scratch my head. In the Win file structure I'm looking at there are a set of RAWS, lets say they include P*****39.ORF, P*****40.ORF, P*****41.ORF. Ie the sequence is complete and contiguous. The same directory viewed via LR shows files ...30 and ...41, but not file 40. In fact this is because there's a duplicate of the file in an adjacent directory. It would help if I could discover something as basic as how to search for a given file name, something that you'd expect to be simple.
Roy
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 16, 2012, 12:53:07 pm
That's why I pointed you to Ctrl F or "\". This displays the library filter panel, and clicking the "Text" label shows the text search feature. You can then look for filenames. But sorting out duplicates is always messy - easier said than done, but best to never get into that situation.

John
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 01:03:47 pm
That's why I pointed you to Ctrl F or "\". This displays the library filter panel, and clicking the "Text" label shows the text search feature. You can then look for filenames. But sorting out duplicates is always messy - easier said than done, but best to never get into that situation.

John
Sorry, this field appears at the top of the screen and I missed it.
However, despite synchronising the parent directory, the root directory and eliminating any duplicates a search within LR fails to locate this file. It is however present in the Win file structure. To make things more baffling, when synchronising the set, LR identifies 1 file but after "synchronisation" reports zero files imported.
I know that you can get used to almost anything in computing, after nearly 35 years of suffering, but I call this perverse. Any ideas?
Roy
EDIT. The "synchronisation" code is buggy. I removed the directory and re-imported it more than once - likewise "synchronisation" - without the missing file appearing. Removing it again, quitting the application and re-importing made it show up. I noticed an "ignore duplicates" switch too, which I de-checked (although there aren't any now.) Are we sure that the import always works correctly even before LR finishes redrawing the thumbnails for the selected set?
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Kirk Gittings on December 16, 2012, 01:11:35 pm
Sorry, this field appears at the top of the screen and I missed it.
However, despite synchronising the parent directory, the root directory and eliminating any duplicates a search within LR fails to locate this file. It is however present in the Win file structure. To make things more baffling, when synchronising the set, LR identifies 1 file but after "synchronisation" reports zero files imported.
I know that you can get used to almost anything in computing, after nearly 35 years of suffering, but I call this perverse. Any ideas?
Roy


I had this problem too, but I wasn't hitting the "import" button in the process of synchronization.

I look at LR's file structure as learning foreign language. When they created it it looks like they were thinking entirely out of the known box. That is to their credit, but it did give me headaches for awhile trying to learn to converse in Lightroomese.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 01:13:27 pm
I had this problem too, but I wasn't hitting the "import" button in the process of synchronization.

I look at LR's file structure as learning foreign language. When they created it it looks like they were thinking entirely out of the known box. That is to their credit, but it did give me headaches for awhile trying to learn to converse in Lightroomese.
See edit above.
Bugs don't make it any easier!

Another question, if anyone's still out there. How do you make LR4 display the full-sized (4608x3456) aspect ratio of the uncropped Olympus ORF raw file? This is one thing that the Oly software displays automatically, overlaid with a crop rectangle.
Roy
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Kirk Gittings on December 16, 2012, 01:25:45 pm
I'm really not really sure what you are describing are bugs-more to me about how to think like the program and utilize it effectively. I know it can be frustrating. I have had my moments with it too.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 16, 2012, 01:37:45 pm
However, despite synchronising the parent directory, the root directory and eliminating any duplicates a search within LR fails to locate this file. It is however present in the Win file structure. To make things more baffling, when synchronising the set, LR identifies 1 file but after "synchronisation" reports zero files imported.

The library filter panel filters only the thumbnails that are currently visible. If you have selected a folder, it filters only those thumbnails. So when looking for these duplicates, first make sure you go to All Photographs (from the Catalog panel)

John
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Rhossydd on December 16, 2012, 01:45:23 pm
Roy, I think you need to read a book or watch some tutorial videos to get to speed with LR's file handling. Once you understand how LR works you'll appreciate how powerful it is and make it work for you.
This tendency of every application these days to want to take over your entire life is extremely unhelpful. I just want LR to handle the RAW file processing, not organise my files. I can do that without help - well or otherwise.
Lightroom won't automatically move things about unless you tell it to. That's actually one of it's strengths.

One key concept to appreciate is that Lightroom will only deal with files it knows about, ie has imported.
which is why....
Quote
I just noticed too, that alone amongst applications, it seems to be impossible to direct files to open in LR from the file system (ie allocating a default application.)
Won't work. You'd need to import them first. This may also be a source of confusion for you if you're trying to find files LR hasn't yet imported.

The other important thing to understand is that LR only knows where you imported the file from. Moving files with any other file management program will cause LR to loose track of where the file is.
However LR is also capable of managing files and folders it's imported in it's catalogue of you wish to subsequently move files around or rename them. Simple drag 'n drop works fine in the folder pane.
So the key is to import the photos and thereafter use LR if you want to change the file structure/naming, then LR knows where everything is.

Having duplicate files will confuse things, but frankly I can't see any reason to do this with RAW files, other than to archive RAWs to a different drive which you wouldn't need to import anyway.

Lightroom will allow you work in many different ways, some will suit you, but seem crazy to others or you can use LR's file management  tools to bring order to pre-existing chaos.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: OldRoy on December 16, 2012, 03:22:29 pm
Thanks for everyone's help!

I've been using LR for a good few months so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with it however I still tend to maintain file and directory structure at the OS level and I've never really liked any of the third party utilities that come with almost everything - like PS/Bridge and CNX2/ViewNX for just two examples. I hate being forced to change just to fall into line with an application's concept of how I ought to be doing things. Old fart time. I still do backups using Robocopy scripts.

However there's at least one bug as described above. If you have to remove directories and quit the application completely to be able to import and "synchronise", even if only sometimes, that's a bug. Also I have some difficulty understanding why, assuming you've allocated a root directory to LR, you then have to keep reminding it to "synchronise" in order to include whatever you've just put in it. As for dupes, of course they aren't a good idea in principle, however I sometimes  deliberately create duplicate files for reasons that make absolute sense to me, and not just in backups.

One last thing on the import/synchronise function (I'll omit the quotes: point made, pointlessly or not!) I've noticed that whenever I do it LR always seem to report hundreds more files than I'm currently adding.

The fact that LR4 doesn't display the entire RAW file is a real nuisance too. At least the Olympus software does this automatically - I'd forgotten what aspect ratio I'd set, nominally. Apparently there's a beta plugin called "recover edges", however it only works with DNG. The last thing I need is another file format to deal with.

Roy
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Rory on December 16, 2012, 11:25:50 pm
Roy, you're still fighting the way lightroom works.  You say you've been using it for a few months, but you still appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding for how it works.  Instead of claiming the program has bugs (which it might, but I doubt in this case re synch) why not read the documentation and check out some of the many tutorials.  It really pays to RTFM.

I don't use ORF files and I'm not sure about the issue of showing the entire ORF file but this rings a bell about something I read a while back - my memory is a little hazy but I think the issue was that LR was only showing the in-camera crop as the whole file.  You might want to see if you have set your camera to something like a 3:2 aspect ratio when your camera's native aspect is 4:3.  You can search here (http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/products/photoshop_family_photoshop_lightroom) or here (http://forums.adobe.com/community/lightroom?view=discussions) for more information on this.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: kaelaria on December 17, 2012, 12:41:59 am
You really, really don't get it.  And at this rate probably won't since you seen hell bent on not listening.  Tell ya what - purchase the best damn tutorial ever right from LL and watch it all.  THEN come back with any questions you might have.  You are blabbering about fundamentals that you don't grasp yet, quit bitchin and do something already.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Rhossydd on December 17, 2012, 02:21:59 am
However there's at least one bug as described above. If you have to remove directories and quit the application completely to be able to import and "synchronise", even if only sometimes, that's a bug. Also I have some difficulty understanding why, assuming you've allocated a root directory to LR, you then have to keep reminding it to "synchronise" in order to include whatever you've just put in it.
You really need to try to understand what LR does and how it works. It won't just 'find' files* you've moved around on the disk, you have to import them into the catalogue.
Using the word 'synchronise' is not helping here. LR uses this term for finding 'lost' files (ie that have been already imported) that have been moved by utilities outside LR or had their metadata changed outside of LR (eg by editing in ACR in PS).
Using terms incorrectly will only confuse you further and prevent others from helping you effectively.

If you use LR to move the files from the camera/card to your computer in the first place, everything else will fall into place. You have complete control of where files go, LR can build all it's previews and you can get some basic keywording done in one process.
Once the files have been imported, then you can manage them using LR.
Quote
As for dupes, of course they aren't a good idea in principle, however I sometimes  deliberately create duplicate files for reasons that make absolute sense to me, and not just in backups.
It might make absolute sense to you, but if no one else thinks that makes sense, including Adobe's engineers, you're creating problems for yourself. There's not a lot you can do to a RAW file other use it as source data, if you did edit it's contents it would be prudent to change the file name anyway. Don't have duplicates around and things will become less confusing.
Quote
The fact that LR4 doesn't display the entire RAW file is a real nuisance too...... - I'd forgotten what aspect ratio I'd set, nominally...
This isn't really a LR issue, but more concerned with the curiosity of why you'd want to use anything less than the full frame size. It makes a degree of sense if you're shooting OOC JPGs, but once you've decided to take advantage of RAW format why apply a crop in camera ? Just leave the camera's setting to use all the sensor, then crop in your RAW converter.

Quote
Old fart time.
Trying to use out dated and ineffective practices in a new workflow paradigm just makes it more difficult for you. Take the time to learn how LR works, then drop inefficient work methods and let LR help you work more efficiently. I'm sure all of us 'old hands' using LR have had to adapt their work to suit LR, but it makes working digital photographs more efficient, fast and, as a result, you'll find it easier, more productive and enjoyable.

*There is a function to have a 'watched' folder, but that's more intended for use when doing tethered shooting in a studio, so probably best to avoid that option for now.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Tony Jay on December 17, 2012, 02:36:44 am
Not really much to add to the excellent information given by both John and Paul.
Roy this advice is spot on.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: stamper on December 17, 2012, 04:36:21 am
Quote Old Roy

 I just want LR to handle the RAW file processing, not organise my files.

Unquote.

If that is your only goal then download Faststone Image Viewer 4.6 - a free download - and use it to browse your images. If you see an image you would like to process then you can set the program to import the entire folder of images but the one you want will be the only one ticked. This is assuming you have already a catalogue in place. Import the ticked image and it will be added to the catalogue and you can process it and save it.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: AFairley on December 17, 2012, 09:44:07 am
Not really much to add to the excellent information given by both John and Paul.
Roy this advice is spot on.

Tony Jay

I will just emphasize that LR is set up so that all photo file management, from cradle to grave is done within lightroom (which includes creating new folders and moving files to a different location).  I understand where Roy is coming from being a longtime "manage files using Windows Explorer" guy, and I pooh-poohed and fought the file management aspect of LR for a long time.  But once you drink the koolaid and do everything within LR (and understand its logic), it is very smooth indeed.  It actually is a lot easier than working in the OS file system once you have mastered the learning curve.  But get a good tutorial, trying to figure out stuff yourself can be a real headache -- as you have discovered.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 17, 2012, 10:33:36 am
So, OldRoy, I use Lightroom 4 at work in the same way you want to use it -- that is, as a raw processor only, not as a database. Here's what I do:

I have a carefully constructed file system, with raw files from individual assignments placed in folders. These folders are then opened in Photo Mechanic so I can do the basic editing and metadata - renaming, full captions, and keywords. PM is the fastest browser out there, and its ability to create extensive presets for metadata, as well as the Structured Keywords panel, help greatly speed up my workflow. Once I have added the metadata, I use PM to select the images I want to process.

Then I use Lightroom as my external editor. Simply selecting the photos I want to process in PM, and choosing the Edit command, opens Lightroom to the Import dialog, where I Import the photos into Lightroom. Then I do whatever raw edits need to be made, and then Export the final images as TIFF or JPEG files.

The original folder of raw files is then moved to my server. This of course breaks the connection to Lightroom, but as I am not using the archiving capabilities, this does not bother me. (Yes, I am doing it "wrong." So what.)

So why use Lightroom when I can get the same raw processing capabilities in Camera Raw? Simple - Lightroom offers far more in the way of presets for raw processing and Exporting than CR does. So it's another way to speed up my workflow. When I'm shooting 700+ assignments a year, and processing out 10K+ files for our office, anything I can do to speed up the post production is most welcome.

At home, I use the full capabilities of Lightroom for my personal and freelance work. But I have far fewer images, and they are all on one computer (no server, no laptop), which makes it easier.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on December 17, 2012, 10:52:41 am
I often open up a current catalog, or during import, and not all the folders open up. I have to force it to "look further".
I have to click some arrows/open some folders on the bottom for the rest to populate. After a couple folders I click open it prompts to add the remaining folders.

Is that what you are talking about?
If so, yes, I think that is a flaw.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 17, 2012, 01:04:03 pm
At home, I use the full capabilities of Lightroom for my personal and freelance work. But I have far fewer images, and they are all on one computer (no server, no laptop), which makes it easier.
LR works fine with large numbers of pictures - I work with someone with around 450000 in his catalogue.

John
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 17, 2012, 01:14:05 pm
LR works fine with large numbers of pictures - I work with someone with around 450000 in his catalogue.

True. But it gets more complicated when one has multiple computers and a server full of images (which is not easily accessed from off campus.) So I handle my work archive outside of Lightroom.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 17, 2012, 01:18:59 pm
I'd say it gets more complicated if you don't manage such things in Lightroom.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Tony Jay on December 17, 2012, 03:31:45 pm
I'd say it gets more complicated if you don't manage such things in Lightroom.

I have to agree.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: JRSmit on December 17, 2012, 04:18:17 pm
Thanks for everyone's help!

I've been using LR for a good few months so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with it however I still tend to maintain file and directory structure at the OS level and I've never really liked any of the third party utilities that come with almost everything - like PS/Bridge and CNX2/ViewNX for just two examples. I hate being forced to change just to fall into line with an application's concept of how I ought to be doing things. Old fart time. I still do backups using Robocopy scripts.

However there's at least one bug as described above. If you have to remove directories and quit the application completely to be able to import and "synchronise", even if only sometimes, that's a bug. Also I have some difficulty understanding why, assuming you've allocated a root directory to LR, you then have to keep reminding it to "synchronise" in order to include whatever you've just put in it. As for dupes, of course they aren't a good idea in principle, however I sometimes  deliberately create duplicate files for reasons that make absolute sense to me, and not just in backups.

One last thing on the import/synchronise function (I'll omit the quotes: point made, pointlessly or not!) I've noticed that whenever I do it LR always seem to report hundreds more files than I'm currently adding.

The fact that LR4 doesn't display the entire RAW file is a real nuisance too. At least the Olympus software does this automatically - I'd forgotten what aspect ratio I'd set, nominally. Apparently there's a beta plugin called "recover edges", however it only works with DNG. The last thing I need is another file format to deal with.

Roy

roy,

i have been using LR several years now, and i also give training classes. The file/folder problems you describe, and as fas as i understand, i have never experienced other than when trainees try to reimport the same files over and over again, sometimes in different folders. Perhaps it is a good idea to stand back a bit and spend a bit of time on what LR actually does when importing. It is not just file manager like Explorer .
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: Ken Bennett on December 17, 2012, 06:29:49 pm
I'd say it gets more complicated if you don't manage such things in Lightroom.

Nah. I have a pretty good system. Been doing this a long time. Lightroom is a very nice app -- as noted above, I use its archiving system at home -- but it's not the only way to skin this cat.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: schrodingerscat on December 18, 2012, 12:27:26 am
After using Photoshop, and Bridge, from the PS7 days, it took a bit of head beating to wrap it around how LR works. But as the man said, ya gotta adapt.

I then picked up LL's tutorial "Where the #@* are my pictures", adopted Seth's techniques, and it's gotten much easier. Searching is done directly through LR once you understand how it works with filenames and key words.

Not sure what the ORF thing is. Had a friend demonstrate ORFs from his E3 with Silky Pics, and RAWS did contain a bit of image more around the edges than were visible with LR. Had to access a function called 'hidden pixels' or some such. He wanted to know if LR could also do this.
Title: Re: LR4. File handling completely baffling.
Post by: john beardsworth on December 18, 2012, 01:32:19 am
Nah. I have a pretty good system. Been doing this a long time. Lightroom is a very nice app -- as noted above, I use its archiving system at home -- but it's not the only way to skin this cat.
No one said it's the only way, but it's perfectly suitable for the kind of situation you described. Of course, some folk just have bigger brains.