Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: DougJ on November 09, 2012, 01:10:29 am

Title: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: DougJ on November 09, 2012, 01:10:29 am
With November 2012 just around the corner, it's time to remember the sacrifices made by others on our behalf that we (in most countries) can live and enjoy many freedoms without repression.

As a Canadian (by choice) the attached image of a Canadian cemetery in Normandy is one of my favourite personal images.

Lest we forget . . .

Doug
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 09, 2012, 04:58:33 am
With November 2012 just around the corner, it's time to remember the sacrifices made by others on our behalf that we (in most countries) can live and enjoy many freedoms without repression.


Doug

Careful how you mention that to the Greeks, Spanish, Irish etc.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: LoisWakeman on November 09, 2012, 05:53:40 am
Justin - I usually stay away from discussing politics with virtual acquaintances for good reason - but couldn't let this one go by without comment.

Are you seriously suggesting that EU regulation - however over-zealous - is in some way equivalent to the suffering inflicted on millions of people in war?

I do rather resent this thread - on a serious subject that touches many people's hearts - being hijacked by such a jibe, if it was intended as such rather than a joke in dubious taste.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 09, 2012, 01:27:30 pm
Justin - I usually stay away from discussing politics with virtual acquaintances for good reason - but couldn't let this one go by without comment.

Are you seriously suggesting that EU regulation - however over-zealous - is in some way equivalent to the suffering inflicted on millions of people in war?

I do rather resent this thread - on a serious subject that touches many people's hearts - being hijacked by such a jibe, if it was intended as such rather than a joke in dubious taste.

First things first. I am not untouched by it, I never knew either of my grandfather's although they were not killed directly. My mother was an evacuee and as a lad  I remember attending remembrance day parades where the veterans of two world wars would stand remembering the the many of their friends who died, it was a moving sight. My headmaster was an army captain at the Normandy landings and my first boss was a tank commander, also in France. So yes I am aware of what the day means to many, but what we don't hear about is that in a war you generally have two sides and not all those who were serving in the German forces were willing volunteers. A friend of mine thought it perfectly normal to be brought up by a father who would spend many nights screaming the house down and generally suffering psychological trauma, but then he was Austrian and had been shot down twice as a Luftwaffe navigator so it's understandable I guess. He's dead now, but there are no poppies worn for him, he was unfortunate enough to be on the losing side although it wasn't his choice.

Up to ten or fifteen years ago I was all for the day of remembrance but now I see it as being hijacked by those who would glorify war the better to sell arms or have unsavoury political motives. It diverts attention away from the death and destruction war brings and instead celebrates the heroes, I just see it as much as a sales job for war as I do a genuine time for reflection. I really do wonder what those who I knew would make of it all, what is absolutely certain is that they hated war and wished that there would never be another, its subliminal promotion as a noble pursuit they would, I am certain, have found distasteful, as I do.

Don't worry, I shall be remembering the heroes and also reflect upon the cause they died for. They believed war to be too terrible for there ever to be another so it sickens me to see the warmongers of this world crying crocodile tears as they send jets and drones to kill unprotected civilians.

As for the situation in Europe let me assure you the show is now being run by the Germans for the benefit of the Germans. I actually took the bike out there this summer to see for myself and found that there is no way Merkel is going to allow their standard of living to drop, austerity is for those that can be bullied into paying back unsecured and quite foolish loans, not for the people of Germany. Her latest wheeze is once again to call for all European tax and spending decisions to be taken centrally and we all know what that means, unelected officials and commissioners who nobody voted into office will be running the countries within the Eurozone which ain't funny when you are on the receiving end of it. 


Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: marvpelkey on November 09, 2012, 09:21:54 pm
As a recently retired cop who marched in 30 Remembrance Day processions and occasionally dropped in to the local legion afterwards, I never saw or heard any attendee doing anything other than sincerely mourning and remembering those who gave their lives. Doug merely offered his sincere thoughts on the matter and how the hell something like this gets hijacked is way beyond me.

Now back to the scheduled program.....

Marv
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2012, 11:28:29 pm
Careful how you mention that to the Greeks, Spanish, Irish etc.

I thought I knew a thing or two about politics, but you lost me with this one. What those guys have to do with the Veterans Day?
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 10, 2012, 05:23:40 am
I thought I knew a thing or two about politics, but you lost me with this one. What those guys have to do with the Veterans Day?

Perhaps your outlook may not be as broad as you hitherto believed.

To be brief. They escaped fascism once 70 odd years ago and now they are faced once again with central control by unelected commissioners and officials who are in thrall to the global financial industry. There may not be the guns and tanks but it is not the democracy which was fought for by those who died in WWII.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 10, 2012, 05:28:15 am
As a recently retired cop who marched in 30 Remembrance Day processions and occasionally dropped in to the local legion afterwards, I never saw or heard any attendee doing anything other than sincerely mourning and remembering those who gave their lives. Doug merely offered his sincere thoughts on the matter and how the hell something like this gets hijacked is way beyond me.

Now back to the scheduled program.....

Marv

I never suggested otherwise. I too have marched with veterans and my appreciation of the sacrifice is as great as yours, but that was not the point I was making. I would urge you to look again.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: John McDermott on November 10, 2012, 02:24:51 pm
Justinr. Very thoughtful. Thanks for posting it. I am an American retired Naval Officer.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 10, 2012, 05:04:38 pm
Perhaps your outlook may not be as broad as you hitherto believed.

To be brief. They escaped fascism once 70 odd years ago and now they are faced once again with central control by unelected commissioners and officials who are in thrall to the global financial industry. There may not be the guns and tanks but it is not the democracy which was fought for by those who died in WWII.

Oh, that outlook!

I shall certainly broaden it to include cheap political shots as the first reaction to Veterans Day.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 10, 2012, 05:12:27 pm
As good a start as any.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 10, 2012, 07:45:06 pm
Careful how you mention that to the Greeks, Spanish, Irish etc.

What a shameless and tasteless jab.

[insert Bronx cheer here]

 ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: wolfnowl on November 11, 2012, 01:52:04 am
Taken last year at 'The Homecoming' statue at Ship's Point, celebrating 100 years of Canada's Navy.

Mike.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 04:02:44 am
What a shameless and tasteless jab.

[insert Bronx cheer here]

 ??? ??? ???



And given what I have written since that is rather a thoughtless response.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 11, 2012, 04:29:32 am
Careful how you mention that to the Greeks, Spanish, Irish etc.
I sympathize with Greek, Spanish and Irish people who are suffering unexpected and personally undeserved financial pain at the moment, but your take on the underlying story there is unpersuasive and its anti-German coloring is distasteful.

The Irish and the Spanish weren't forced into housing bubbles and the incidence of tax evasion in Greece is down to the Greeks. Of course, none of those things constitute the whole story but they are a significant part of it. The people of those countries may have a legitimate quarrel with their own Governments and financial sectors in the last decades but they don't have much of one with the Germans or the EEC and they - like the rest of us - need to think about the sustainability of endless growth based on credit.

I  also have far too much respect for them (the Greeks, Spanish and Irish) - and perhaps understanding of them - than to imagine that they would have any problem at all with Remembrance Days in Canada or any of the other countries that remember their citizens who died in the Second World War, or feel any need to lament their current misfortunes in that context. They have no need of your protection from mention of such things. You have simply chosen an inappropriate occasion to make a simplistic argument.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 08:17:55 am
I sympathize with Greek, Spanish and Irish people who are suffering unexpected and personally undeserved financial pain at the moment, but your take on the underlying story there is unpersuasive and its anti-German coloring is distasteful.

The Irish and the Spanish weren't forced into housing bubbles and the incidence of tax evasion in Greece is down to the Greeks. Of course, none of those things constitute the whole story but they are a significant part of it. The people of those countries may have a legitimate quarrel with their own Governments and financial sectors in the last decades but they don't have much of one with the Germans or the EEC and they - like the rest of us - need to think about the sustainability of endless growth based on credit.

I  also have far too much respect for them (the Greeks, Spanish and Irish) - and perhaps understanding of them - than to imagine that they would have any problem at all with Remembrance Days in Canada or any of the other countries that remember their citizens who died in the Second World War, or feel any need to lament their current misfortunes in that context. They have no need of your protection from mention of such things. You have simply chosen an inappropriate occasion to make a simplistic argument.

That is most easily answered by the words condescending and poppycock but I will try and expand upon that initial reaction a little.

There are two strands emerging in the arguments here. The first is that I am being accused of being disrespectful of those who have fought in wars on the side of the west whilst the second is that I am trying to make a cheap and unfounded political point, both are seriously erroneous.

As one who was born and brought up in England I am perfectly well aware of the sacrifices that both the dead and surviving  made in the fighting. As a scout and later as a scout leader I to marched alongside those who had fought and lost comrades as well a greater part of their youth. My respect for them is second to none here. I was also educated by and have worked alongside those who fought in the Second World War and the most overwhelming impression they left upon me is that they did it because they knew what they were fighting for and when they came home the put into effect their belief in trying to build a better world. War was a hateful thing to them and they did not wish to see another. These are the people I knew and the ones I remember. Now I thought I had made my point clear in an earlier posting but I will reiterate it.

What I see now is not just the remembrance of those who fought but an underlying glorification of war. A nation needs it's heroes, they provide a form of social cohesion, and there is no quicker way of creating a hero than by going to war. As the living veterans have passed away with time this is becoming ever more obvious. We do not see the death and destruction, misery and trauma inflicted upon millions, no, we are very carefully not reminded of that, instead we are only recounted the undoubted tales of courage and sacrifice. It has become completely unbalanced and the net effect is that we no longer recoil in horror from fighting but rather embrace it as a noble pursuit. How many coalition soldiers have been killed in the middle east over the past decade? Hush now, don't go spoiling the day, just keep your mind on the past and let the present take care of itself!

Remembrance day is a wonderful cause, but let us not allow it to become corrupted, a smokescreen behind which further atrocities are carried out in our name but which we are not encouraged to question. Is this really what they fought for?

This takes me neatly on to the second point about cheap political jibes. I now live in Ireland and so am not a disinterested observer from afar but someone who is living through the unnecessary pain of an unchosen austerity and it just these sort of know it all comments that enrage me and many others over here. Let me introduce a few facts relating to Ireland at this point.

The people of Ireland are told that we must pay the bondholders back their unsecured loans. Everybody agrees that they were unsecured and therefore quite foolishly given (in fact they weren't just given but aggressively sold to an unsuspecting population by the banks, but that's another story). Our capital debt to the bondholders is something like €80bn, it now emerges that the 80 odd bondholders between them control 21tn worth of assets. In other words Ireland's 'debt' is less than one percent of the capital they manage. Ireland was but a tiny flutter in the great casino that is the global finance industry and make no mistake that's what it was, a gamble by the money men. It also emerges that 40% of the money we are told to repay is due to German banks who are by far the biggest group amongst the bondholders. Germany dominates the running of the Eurozone, it justifies this by pointing out that it is the biggest economy within it, it also points out it is the healthiest economy and preens itself on its fiscal rectitude. It can afford to because it is quite happily bullying the poorer states into coughing up it's banks gambling losses, money which it then 'lends' back at very healthy interest rates to those self same countries to pay off the self same gambling debts. We are being milked to keep Germany prosperous. We also have to suffer the indignity of having our budget inspected by unelected EU commissioners before it is implemented, so what you might ask has this to do with remembrance day?

The answer is quite simple. The allies went to war with a Germany (and Italy) that was dominating the rest of the continent by force. They fought for democracy, liberty and self determination all three of which are currently being compromised by the European Union. Did the brave soldiers of Britain, alongside a great many Irish, Canadians and Americans really fight for a political system that now seeks to remove all taxing and spending decisions from the various governments and pool that power in the hands of unelected commissioners and officials? That is precisely what the chancellor of Germany is calling for. The elected EU parliament BTW, is but a toothless spaniel keeping itself busy with annoying the citizens of Europe with pointless laws and legislation, it has no real say in anything important.

So my point is that those who gave their lives perhaps gave them in vain. They are probably turning in their graves as the centralisation of power proceeds not with tanks and bombs but coercion and oppression.

I weep for the loss of what it was they, my friends and mentors, so bravely fought for. It is not a cheap jibe but a lament for the pointlessness of their sacrifice.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 11, 2012, 09:19:23 am
And given what I have written since that is rather a thoughtless response.

Oh no, i thought about it a lot.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 11:15:29 am
Oh no, i thought about it a lot.

Can't say it shows.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 11, 2012, 01:38:59 pm
Can't say it shows.

Sorry, bud ... but you are the thoughtless one here.  There is a time and a place to make political arguments.

This thread was not the time or the place.

You protestations and back-pedaling do not change that fact ... they just prove you just don't get how inappropriate your original comment was.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 01:50:16 pm
Sorry, bud ... but you are the thoughtless one here.  There is a time and a place to make political arguments.

This thread was not the time or the place.

You protestations and back-pedaling do not change that fact ... they just prove you just don't get how inappropriate your original comment was.

Which underlines my point quite nicely in that the whole thing has become an unquestionable ceremony the better to reinforce the belief that war can be a glorious thing.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 11, 2012, 02:11:06 pm
Your posts here are as "appropriate" as Westboro Baptist Church' protest at military funerals (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=church+protest+at+military+funerals&FORM=HDRSC2). You know, showing up in front of the grieving friends and family with signs like "Thanks God For Dead Soldiers." You are in good company. Real classy.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 11, 2012, 02:27:20 pm
the whole thing has become an unquestionable ceremony

When in a hole, stop digging.

Allow people their remembrance and move on.  Save your dime-store arguments for Speaker's Corner.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 02:30:09 pm
Your posts here are as "appropriate" as Westboro Baptist Church' protest at military funerals (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=church+protest+at+military+funerals&FORM=HDRSC2). You know, showing up in front of the grieving friends and family with signs like "Thanks God For Dead Soldiers." You are in good company. Real classy.

That is the most crass and stupid response of I have encountered so far. Are you really such a small minded little creep that you have to stoop so low?

Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 02:35:27 pm
When in a hole, stop digging.

Allow people their remembrance and move on.  Save your dime-store arguments for Speaker's Corner.


Yawn. Whatever Jeremy, whatever.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 11, 2012, 02:52:29 pm
That is the most crass and stupid response of I have encountered so far. Are you really such a small minded little creep that you have to stoop so low?

Oooppss!? Did I just hit a nerve? You don't like when someone holds the mirror for you?

Sometimes getting to the same level as your interlocutor is the only thing that guarantees they will understand you.

I could have taken the high road of not dignifying your posts with an answer, but then I remembered that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 11, 2012, 03:03:59 pm
So my point is that those who gave their lives perhaps gave them in vain. They are probably turning in their graves as the centralisation of power proceeds not with tanks and bombs but coercion and oppression. I weep for the loss of what it was they, my friends and mentors, so bravely fought for. It is not a cheap jibe but a lament for the pointlessness of their sacrifice.
You are seriously comparing the current financial misfortunes of some Europeans with what it would have been like to live in a Nazi-dominated Europe? Seriously? The absence, say, of any genocide going on around the place doesn't strike you as a significant difference? Or the availability of complete freedom of speech?

And just for the record, I will summarize my earlier points which, despite going on at great length, you didn't answer. Your analysis of the situation is simplistic and its anti-German element is especially misconceived. The problem here is the financial system which is multinational and which included Spanish, Greek and Irish banks who were its representatives in their own countries, and the failure of Governments, both national and multinational (the EEC), to control it. "Blaming it all on the Germans" is harking back to the bad old days when the Europeans conducted their arguments with bullets.

All these things are arguable of course and there is a time and place for arguing them. You genuinely don't seem to understand why this wasn't the time or place. As best I can understand it (your emotions are a lot stronger than your logic) you  think it was ok to have a go at the Germans over the current financial misfortunes of the Irish and others because Remembrance Day ceremonies glorify war. Well - not if you talk to any of the surviving soldiers or nurses or family members they don't, or the children who turn up to them in increasing numbers - the idea of war amazes and appalls them. And the appropriate response, if you don't like a ceremony which means a lot to other people, is to stay away and not turn up waving some obscure placard about another matter. This applies just as much on line as it does on the street.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 05:11:56 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/nov/11/remembrance-sunday-atheist)
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 11, 2012, 05:14:54 pm
Again, you seem to fail to recognize there is a time and a place for political debate.

This is not that time or place.  A newspaper is.

What's wrong with you?
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 05:24:30 pm
You are seriously comparing the current financial misfortunes of some Europeans with what it would have been like to live in a Nazi-dominated Europe? Seriously? The absence, say, of any genocide going on around the place doesn't strike you as a significant difference? Or the availability of complete freedom of speech?

And just for the record, I will summarize my earlier points which, despite going on at great length, you didn't answer. Your analysis of the situation is simplistic and its anti-German element is especially misconceived. The problem here is the financial system which is multinational and which included Spanish, Greek and Irish banks who were its representatives in their own countries, and the failure of Governments, both national and multinational (the EEC), to control it. "Blaming it all on the Germans" is harking back to the bad old days when the Europeans conducted their arguments with bullets.

All these things are arguable of course and there is a time and place for arguing them. You genuinely don't seem to understand why this wasn't the time or place. As best I can understand it (your emotions are a lot stronger than your logic) you  think it was ok to have a go at the Germans over the current financial misfortunes of the Irish and others because Remembrance Day ceremonies glorify war. Well - not if you talk to any of the surviving soldiers or nurses or family members they don't, or the children who turn up to them in increasing numbers - the idea of war amazes and appalls them. And the appropriate response, if you don't like a ceremony which means a lot to other people, is to stay away and not turn up waving some obscure placard about another matter. This applies just as much on line as it does on the street.

Really, what the feck are you on about? You have missed the arguments completely.

Jeez it's hard work with you guys at times.

Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 05:26:31 pm
Again, you seem to fail to recognize there is a time and a place for political debate.

This is not that time or place.  A newspaper is.

What's wrong with you?

Having to put up with your empty headed nonsense is not good for the blood pressure I will admit.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 11, 2012, 05:30:57 pm
Really, what the feck are you on about?
It is nice, and unexpected, to get a confession that you don't have a clue. You deserve credit for that.

BTW, the Guardian article you linked to was interesting, well argued, and, in context, entirely appropriate.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 11, 2012, 05:35:41 pm
Having to put up with your empty headed nonsense is not good for the blood pressure I will admit.

Start another thread. 

Making political hay when people are trying to remember the dead is in despicably poor taste.

Just not sure what aspect of that is unclear to you.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 05:46:43 pm
It is nice, and unexpected, to get a confession that you don't have a clue. You deserve credit for that.

BTW, the Guardian article you linked to was interesting, well argued, and, in context, entirely appropriate.

Well, you didn't give us much to go on.

Anyway, now that you have read another persons view that is generally in line with one strand of my argument perhaps you can take time off from childish sniping and express an opinion as to why you think it appropriate.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: jeremypayne on November 11, 2012, 05:57:54 pm
Anyway, now that you have read another persons view that is generally in line with one strand of my argument perhaps you can take time off from childish sniping and express an opinion as to why you think it appropriate.

Nobody is addressing your 'arguments' because this is not the time or place for such discussions.

As pointed already ... a newspaper IS the right place for such expression.

Jeeze, man ... get an 'effen clue.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 11, 2012, 07:07:58 pm
Good night Jeremy.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Jim Pascoe on November 11, 2012, 07:24:03 pm
Justin, I do not think this was a good way to jump in on this thread with the views you have espoused.  Its a bit like joining a thread entitled 'Happy Christmas everyone' and belittling the meaning of the celebration to Christians.
However, here in the UK I am starting to feel uneasy about the way Remembrance Day has been built up in recent years.  I completely support the idea of remembering those who gave their lives - mostly unwillingly, to protect their families and way of life.  But I do wonder if the level of political interest in the whole thing is becoming more about showing support for our current military operations.  There seems to be no shortage of young people around here queuing up to join the army and risk getting their limbs blown off by a bomb in Afghanistan.   I wonder if part of the attraction is the apparent reverence in which the dead and mutilated soldiers are held - particularly on Remembrance Day.
My grand dad fought between 1914 and 1918 and told me there was no glory in war, and saw the whole thing as a waste of life.  He remembered the dead in his own personal way, not at reunions and services.

Jim
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 11, 2012, 10:05:08 pm
Well, you didn't give us much to go on.
Well - clearly not enough for you. "Us" - I am not sure who else you mean to include. No-one has put their hand up.

Anyway, now that you have read another persons view that is generally in line with one strand of my argument perhaps you can take time off from childish sniping and express an opinion as to why you think it appropriate.
The time and place were appropriate. Even a modestly attentive reading of the thread to this point would have allowed you to understand that. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about Remembrance Days. Your take on it, like your take on the European Financial Crisis, is simplistic, but there are bits of it I agree with. There is deep and genuine emotion, which needs to be respected, and a great deal of media spin, which needs to be understood and pointed out. Respecting the genuine emotion means being careful about the time and place you choose to comment on the media spin.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 12, 2012, 03:26:25 am
Well - clearly not enough for you. "Us" - I am not sure who else you mean to include. No-one has put their hand up.
The time and place were appropriate. Even a modestly attentive reading of the thread to this point would have allowed you to understand that. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about Remembrance Days. Your take on it, like your take on the European Financial Crisis, is simplistic, but there are bits of it I agree with. There is deep and genuine emotion, which needs to be respected, and a great deal of media spin, which needs to be understood and pointed out. Respecting the genuine emotion means being careful about the time and place you choose to comment on the media spin.

Oh didums, did I shake you out of your little comfort zone? Well when you reach some stage of maturity you will appreciate that there are other views and opinions in this big nasty old world that will shock you unless you wise up a little. You may also get round to expanding your thinking to include all the information presented to you and not just pick and choose that which suits your prejudices. I really don't see your objections as anything more than an inability to climb outside your prissy little box and if you feel that I do not respect the fallen and those that survived then I suggest you go back over my posts and read them again. Running your finger slowly the words as you read them may help.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 12, 2012, 04:38:05 am
Oh didums, did I shake you out of your little comfort zone? Well when you reach some stage of maturity you will appreciate that there are other views and opinions in this big nasty old world that will shock you unless you wise up a little. You may also get round to expanding your thinking to include all the information presented to you and not just pick and choose that which suits your prejudices. I really don't see your objections as anything more than an inability to climb outside your prissy little box and if you feel that I do not respect the fallen and those that survived then I suggest you go back over my posts and read them again. Running your finger slowly the words as you read them may help.
::)
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: stamper on November 12, 2012, 06:50:18 am
I find it a little strange that Jeremy and Slobodan are among the ones leading the attack on your good self? They aren't usually shy at bringing out their soap boxes when it suits them on differing subjects. Is there really a correct time to start a discussion on a subject you feel passionate about? Probably/possibly is the answer. I too have doubts about the sincerity of some of the people partaking in the remembrance parades. David Cameron sending troops to Afghanistan to die for a futile cause and then commiserating with the relatives of the fallen is distasteful. Personally I have tried ignoring the various scenes on the TV of remembrance but actively commenting on them, well I have taken the coward's way out and got on with other things knowing it will blow over till next Autumn. :-X
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 12, 2012, 09:48:53 am
I find it a little strange that Jeremy and Slobodan are among the ones leading the attack on your good self? They aren't usually shy at bringing out their soap boxes when it suits them on differing subjects. Is there really a correct time to start a discussion on a subject you feel passionate about? Probably/possibly is the answer. I too have doubts about the sincerity of some of the people partaking in the remembrance parades. David Cameron sending troops to Afghanistan to die for a futile cause and then commiserating with the relatives of the fallen is distasteful. Personally I have tried ignoring the various scenes on the TV of remembrance but actively commenting on them, well I have taken the coward's way out and got on with other things knowing it will blow over till next Autumn. :-X

Well quite, although I don't so much doubt the sincerity of 99% of mourners as challenge the hypocrisy of those with an interest in promoting armed conflict. Politicians talking out of the side of their mouths we are used to unfortunately but the media knows that war generates news, the arms companies obviously have an interest, the services themselves don't want to see their role or budgets diminished and a period of enforced unity can blunt any opposition to other government actions that may be occurring at the same time. How can we have proper accountability when for a short period each year the politicians all wear the same badge? All in all it can add up to a pretty impressive piece of propaganda and something of a smokescreen, it's relentless promotion in the weeks leading up to the day leaves me feeling quite uneasy about it all. I certainly cannot recall such a big fuss being made over it in my youth.

As I said earlier, I do feel that it is being hijacked to serve purposes other than simple and heartfelt remembrance, which is what it should be, without the social pressure to conform to the poppy wearing ritual or other events that have sprung up around the day.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 12, 2012, 10:03:03 am
... I do feel that it is being hijacked to serve purposes other than simple and heartfelt remembrance...

Finally, a self-criticism!

Oh, wait! You meant... never mind.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: stamper on November 13, 2012, 04:41:42 am
A good read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppycock-mans-arrest-for-posting-image-of-burning-poppy-on-facebook-is-condemned-by-civil-liberties-activists-8306784.html?fb_action_ids=10152262123860578%2C3958542198250%2C10151165695919597%2C10151504754567067%2C10151504749767067&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210152262123860578%22%3A189326711191929%2C%223958542198250%22%3A189326711191929%2C%2210151165695919597%22%3A189326711191929%2C%2210151504754567067%22%3A376157835800010%2C%2210151504749767067%22%3A380793475328605%2C%2210151504749092067%22%3A428010170597627%2C%2210151504746337067%22%3A295962650519630}#access_token=AAADWQ6323IoBACBlci0tk6ApEF3LbUWGgy3mNxhqXoIVrStX6LTTdVeNZBwtjJnEHi1Adt9SSVGLoO5j2AuiGGAuhGfJP49E0ISWSWvedKqZCBQrt4&expires_in=4448

Sorry for the long link. Over the top reaction?
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: LoisWakeman on November 13, 2012, 04:48:32 am
Good lord - that URL must be sufficient to identify every star in the universe I would imagine!

The perp is an insensitive and foul-mouthed idiot - but arresting him? Our gaols are full enough already, without adding half the members of Facebook to the population.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 13, 2012, 05:42:07 am
The irony of the reaction to the poppy burning is far too rich for the authorities to grasp it would seem, but first it's worth pointing out that we have all done silly things in our youth, it's part of growing up, usually nobody takes any notice and all is forgotten if anybody realised anything untoward had even occurred in the first place. Unfortunately, with the wretched Facebook, our japes are easily broadcast and so the ponderous and not very bright long arm of the law creaks into action summoning up various acts which were meant to curtail totally different activities and applies them in a manner which once again chips away at our freedoms and what we fondly believe to be a liberal society.

We keep reminding ourselves that the veterans died in the cause of freedom, but not the freedom to be young and irresponsible it would seem. I wonder just how many people were truly offended by this if you  discount the various do gooders, politicians and those with an agenda to pursue in promoting the glory of war. I personally am far more concerned with the heavy handed reaction, that is the scariest part of it all, especially when you consider that they were responding to what they thought was public opinion rather than actual breach of the law. Has the media and other shapers of public opinion so distorted our values that we see it as being right and proper to bang up teenagers for simply being teenagers? In what sort of direction are we pushing society?

To be honest I see this as another reason why we should slowly and gently let Remembrance day quietly fade as the veterans of the wars gradually pass away, there is too much politics now being attached to it, not least by myself.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 13, 2012, 08:19:17 pm
"Freedom-of-speech campaigners accused the police of using the law to effectively arrest a man for causing offence"

+1. Causing offence should never be illegal and there is no human right to never be offended. People are usually free to state that they are offended in the same context or forum as the original statement or action.  Public condemnation should be the only sanction for this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 13, 2012, 08:38:12 pm
To be honest I see this as another reason why we should slowly and gently let Remembrance day quietly fade as the veterans of the wars gradually pass away
I certainly hope it doesn't get reinvigorated by new wars, but I wouldn't count on it.

Before this thread fades, I thought there should be at least one post that responds to what I take to be the OP's original intention to create an on-line space for remembrance. I am as responsible as anyone else for its departure from that intention.

Hence the shot below, of the Anzac Day Dawn Service at a little village on the East Coast of Australia in 2005. No media, no dignitaries, no spin, just local people remembering their dead as the sky lightened and  the sun came up out of the sea. Anzac Day is probably the major occasion for remembrance in Australia and New Zealand and the Dawn Service seems to have some natural immunity to hijack.

Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: WalterEG on November 13, 2012, 09:55:05 pm
Is it out of place in this thread to say that I find that a wonderfully moving image Ken.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: LoisWakeman on November 14, 2012, 04:09:27 am
I personally am far more concerned with the heavy handed reaction, that is the scariest part of it all, especially when you consider that they were responding to what they thought was public opinion rather than actual breach of the law.

Both the police and politicians seem to be concerned with making (often very ill-advised) knee-jerk reactions to outcries on social and traditional media these days, at least here in the UK. This is not the only case of utter stupidity.  ::)
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: stamper on November 15, 2012, 04:45:18 am
One problem the police have is if they hear an offensive remark hurled at a person from another then they have to judge whether the offensive remark may lead to a fight or even a riot. Preventative policing has an important part to play but it can be seen as over reacting and interfering in a person's civil rights. Usually a stern warning works but not always? They are under increasing pressure from politicians to be seen to be acting forcefully and another problem is everyone and their uncle seem nowadays to have a camera and using them. No easy answer?
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: DougJ on November 15, 2012, 02:56:35 pm
Ken, you are so right: I had hoped that my originating post would be an opportunity for some to remember with gratitude the sacrifice that others had made.  As the quote says: the price of anything is the amount of life we exchange for it.  And, not just in war: for example, some of us see our children less as we work longer hours to ensure that we can provide them some opportunity to be better (in a variety of ways) than we are, and then suddenly they are adults and we missed their childhood--reminds me of the Harry Chapin song,  Cat's in the Cradle, lyrics at http://www.lyricsdepot.com/harry-chapin/cats-in-the-cradle.html.

But back to your pic: it is so reminiscent of what I see in the small town in which I live: a genuine thanks giving, notwithstanding the sorry state we may find ourselves in, politically, socially, economically. 

And what of my original image: as presented, does it have any redeeming merit?

Ciao,

Doug
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 15, 2012, 03:19:44 pm
And what of my original image: as presented, does it have any redeeming merit?
It took me straight back to Normandy, which I visited in 2004, and exactly captures something that struck me strongly there - so many graves, so many lives lost, all the white crosses on the green slopes.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 15, 2012, 04:10:59 pm
... Germany dominates the running of the Eurozone... It can afford to because it is quite happily bullying the poorer states... We are being milked to keep Germany prosperous...

... The allies went to war with a Germany...those who gave their lives perhaps gave them in vain. They are probably turning in their graves as the centralisation of power proceeds not with tanks and bombs but coercion and oppression...

An interesting article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324556304578121031801205040.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) in the Wall Street Journal today:

"FRANKFURT—The influx of Southern Europeans into Germany gathered pace in recent months, as a growing number of Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese ventured north to escape deepening recession and rising social tensions. The biggest increase came from Greece. The number of Greeks moving to Germany jumped 78% in the first half of 2012 from a year earlier, Germany's statistics office said..."


Ain't that funny how those "dominated, bullied, milked, coerced and oppressed" are actually not running away from the "oppressor," but toward it, don't you think?
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: kencameron on November 15, 2012, 04:23:56 pm
Ain't that funny how those "dominated, bullied, milked, coerced and oppressed" are actually not running away from the "oppressor," but toward it, don't you think?
:D
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: DougJ on November 15, 2012, 11:35:55 pm
My image, Ken, dates from 2008 when, possibly in an act of chauvinism, our middle son and I, both WW-II history buffs especially around cryptography, planned our personal tour to follow the Canadian soldier's footsteps from Juno Beach through to Caen.

So, when you say that the image took you back to 2004 in Normandy, it says to me that my image works.  I'm not in the business of selling my images, but if anyone asks, is it for sale?, the answer is yes, and this image, framed, hangs in the homes of several people who bought it having asked if it was for sale.

best, and Ciao,

Doug


Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 16, 2012, 02:50:14 pm
An interesting article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324556304578121031801205040.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) in the Wall Street Journal today:

"FRANKFURT—The influx of Southern Europeans into Germany gathered pace in recent months, as a growing number of Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese ventured north to escape deepening recession and rising social tensions. The biggest increase came from Greece. The number of Greeks moving to Germany jumped 78% in the first half of 2012 from a year earlier, Germany's statistics office said..."


Ain't that funny how those "dominated, bullied, milked, coerced and oppressed" are actually not running away from the "oppressor," but toward it, don't you think?


Just picked up on this as I have been running around hospitals of late.

A rather superficial take on the situation, as is to be expected, but if you really want to pursue it then it's probably best to start a new thread.
Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 16, 2012, 03:08:48 pm
... A rather superficial take on the situation,

This criticism comes from a guy with a really "deep" analysis of international economics!?

Quote
as is to be expected,

Another dig at me personally, though less vulgar than before.

Quote
and if you really want to pursue it then it's probably best to start a new thread.

Look who is talking!

Title: Re: Remembrance Day 2012
Post by: Justinr on November 17, 2012, 04:29:12 am
This criticism comes from a guy with a really "deep" analysis of international economics!?

Another dig at me personally, though less vulgar than before.

Look who is talking!



Whatever Slobodan, whatever, but why not try it anyway, it would be fascinating to see if you are actually able to hold a discussion without resorting to sneering at the messenger rather than countering the points of any argument put forward. Unfortunately the former would appear to be your default mode.