Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 01:17:36 pm

Title: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 01:17:36 pm
Leaf Credo USB 3.

Is it working yet?
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 06, 2012, 02:12:27 pm
Are you thinking of buying one and actually shooting digital medium format?
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 04:24:32 pm
Not buying... may need to rent
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: gazwas on November 06, 2012, 04:37:53 pm
USB3 on the Credo/IQ backs is a very sore subject!

Beginning to think its just broken and will never be stitched on in this generation of backs...... sigh.  :-[
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 06, 2012, 06:01:36 pm
Fred - If you are indeed thinking about renting then you should speak to the rental house instead of asking here.

However we all know that it isn't working. Yet.  Will it? Yes.  When? Who knows but I feel that Phase has staked a portion of their reputation of this working and they're get it.  I for one would rather wait until it's fixed and working than attempt to use it with all sorts of problems.  But that's just me.

Don
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 06:22:51 pm
Fred - If you are indeed thinking about renting then you should speak to the rental house instead of asking here.

Don


Why can't I ask here????

Anyway... I can't reach the fellow I will be renting from as he is on location. When I can I rent from colleagues rather than rental houses.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 07:02:13 pm
USB3 on the Credo/IQ backs is a very sore subject!

Beginning to think its just broken and will never be stitched on in this generation of backs...... sigh.  :-[



So it's not just an IQ problem?

MamiyaLeaf has USB 3 written all over their website, but no mention of it not working......

USB is pretty standard stuff..... strange they can't get it working.....
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: gerald.d on November 06, 2012, 07:41:33 pm
The thing I don't fully understand about USB3 on the IQ/Credo is the physical connection itself.

Every USB3 device I have (CF card reader, external drives) has the "old" square connector on the PC end, but a newly designed connector on the device end. I believe that despite the connector being the same physical size on the PC end, it does actually have additional connections on the top.

Question -

What is the physical connection for USB3 inside the IQ/Credo? Is it the newly designed connector -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Connector_USB_3_IMGP6033_wp_.jpg

Because if it's not, I don't see how it could ever be implemented.

/edit
I should add that I've never even tried connecting my IQ180 to my PC via USB. I don't however recall seeing a USB3 lead in the packaging - pretty sure there's a USB2 lead in there, which would make no sense whatsoever. If you can connect the old USB2 lead to the IQ, then you sure as heck will never be able to connect a USB3 lead to it (unless of course it has two separate physical USB ports - one for 2, and one for 3, but that would make absolutely no sense from a design perspective).
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: HarperPhotos on November 06, 2012, 08:04:11 pm
Hello,

This would be a good time for Yair to chime in and tell everyone what is going on and how it connects.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Kagetsu on November 06, 2012, 08:49:14 pm
I recall getting a USB cable with my IQ, but never used it (for obvious reasons).

Personally I'm pretty tired of the lack of communication on the issues from PhaseOne. It's been near on two years since the IQ's announcement, and we're still waiting on any real word on the USB3 issue, and it's about time they did something for the sake of their already invested customers. Not just "It's coming" because we've been hearing that since the start.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 09:23:49 pm
From the Mamiya Leaf website

Quote
Capture speeds as fast as 1.2 frames per second
Fastest image transfer speed through the use of advanced FireWire 800, USB 3.0 and UDMA CompactFlash technologies.

Based on this one would assume it works ::)

Even the FAQ page makes no mention of USB not working yet, but there are some references to USB that would lead one to believe it works:

Quote
Q: What does “Credo” mean?
A: Credo in Latin means “to believe/trust”. With Mamiya and Leaf being the most trustable brands in the business, we think it suits the new product perfectly!


Q: Who makes the Leaf Credo back?
A: The Leaf Credo is produced by Leaf Imaging Ltd.


Q: What is unique about the new display?
A: The new 1.15MP display is extremely bright and is useable in all lighting conditions. The touchscreen extends beyond the LCD area, allowing for additional functionality and space for tools.


Q: What camera bodies can I use the Leaf Credo on?
A: The Leaf Credo is available with a choice of four mounts: Mamiya 645DF, Contax 645AF, Hasselblad V and Hasselblad H1/H2/H4x. For a full list of supported cameras check the specs.


Q: Does the Leaf Credo offer on-screen Live View?
A: YES! Live View works both when shooting tethered or untethered!


Q: What files format does the Leaf Credo produce?
A: The RAW file format is called IIQL (large) or IIQS (small) The IIQ stands for "intelligent image quality".


Q: Can I open the files in Photoshop/Lightroom?
A: We are working with Adobe to ensure that one of their future versions will support the Leaf Credo files.


Q: Does it offer better long exposure performance than my Aptus-II back?
A: YES. The maximum exposure time has been increased to two minutes (Credo 80) and one minute (Credo 60 and 40).
Q: What type of CF cards should I use?
A: The Leaf Credo supports most UDMA 6 cards from the main brands. We will have a full list of tested/supported models before the product ships.


Q: Can I use my existing Aptus accessories?
A: A Leaf Credo back comes with a new set of accessories (i.e. batteries, chargers and FW cables). Some accessories, for example, the charger can still be used once the insert plate is replaced.


Q: Can the Leaf Credo be used on a view or a tech camera outdoors?
A: YES!!! The added functionality of Live View and bi-directional spirit level, along with the very bright screen, enclosed battery and weather sealing make the Leaf Credo the perfect tool for shooting in the great outdoors.


Q: What do I need in order to use the Leaf Credo on my RZ PRO II?
A: We have several adapters for all RZ types including the PROII and they come with all the necessary accessories: sync cables, remote cables and focusing screens suitable for the type of back mount and sensor size.


Q: Can I use my existing Leaf adapter on my RZ PROII?
A: If you already have an adapter for your existing back, you may be able to use it, depending on your current back’s mount (for example if the adapter is for H mount it’ll take the new back). You will also need to change some of the cables.


Q: Can I use the Leaf Credo with a low-powered MacBook Pro, an iMac or a Windows based laptop?
A: YES! The Leaf Credo uses an internal battery, ensuring that the back has enough power to work tethered, regardless of the voltage of the FireWire or USB3.0 port in the computer.

Tip: The Leaf Credo also has a built-in battery charger so the battery gets charged through the FireWire/USB 3.0 cable.



Q: Can I connect the Leaf Credo to the Thunderbolt port on my Mac?
A: Currently there are no off-the-shelf, reliable hardware/software solutions for connecting FireWire or USB devices to Thunderbolt.


Q: Is there an AFi/Hy6 mount version of the Leaf Credo?
A: The Leaf Credo is made in four different mounts but not in AFi/Hy6 mount. The AFi-II 10 and AFi-II 12 backs are still in production and provide the perfect digital solution for this platform, including a tilt-screen and a rotating sensor.

 

Q: Does the V-mount Leaf Credo back include a rotating sensor like the Aptus-II R?
A: The Aptus-II 10R and Aptus-II 12R are still in production and maintain the unique rotating sensor capability.


Q: In the studio, can I use the Leaf Credo with Schneider Electronic-Shutters and the Schneider software?
A: YES: You will need the cable that connects the Leaf Credo to the Schneider USB box. The cable is normally provided by Schneider.



Q: In the studio, can I use the Leaf Credo with Schneider Electronic-Shutters and the shutter controller as I do with my Aptus-II back?
A: YES, however Capture One will not be able to control the shutter (like it does with the Aptus-II) so you will have to use the controller for this. If you’re looking to upgrade to a higher resolution back and shoot mostly in the studio then the Aptus-II 10/12 present a fantastic price/ performance value.


Q: In the studio, can I use the Leaf Credo with Rollei Electronic Shutters and the shutter controller as I do with my Aptus-II back?
A: YES, however Capture One will not be able to control the shutter (like it does with the Aptus-II) so you will have to use the controller for this. If you’re looking to upgrade to a higher resolution back and shoot mostly in the studio then the Aptus-II 10/12 present a fantastic price/ performance value.


Q: Is the Credo supported by Leaf Capture?
A: The Leaf Credo is designed to work seamlessly with Capture One in order to maximize its outstanding image quality; therefore it is not supported by Leaf Capture.


Q: I just took delivery of a new Aptus-II 10 and I’m interested in the Leaf Credo 60. Can I get a special discount on this upgrade?
A: Please contact your Mamiya Leaf dealer so that we can look into a suitable solution for you.

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Steve Hendrix on November 06, 2012, 11:20:46 pm
From the Mamiya Leaf website

Based on this one would assume it works ::)

Even the FAQ page makes no mention of USB not working yet, but there are some references to USB that would lead one to believe it works:

Quote
Q: What does “Credo” mean?
A: Credo in Latin means “to believe/trust”. With Mamiya and Leaf being the most trustable brands in the business, we think it suits the new product perfectly!


Q: Who makes the Leaf Credo back?
A: The Leaf Credo is produced by Leaf Imaging Ltd.


Q: What is unique about the new display?
A: The new 1.15MP display is extremely bright and is useable in all lighting conditions. The touchscreen extends beyond the LCD area, allowing for additional functionality and space for tools.


Q: What camera bodies can I use the Leaf Credo on?
A: The Leaf Credo is available with a choice of four mounts: Mamiya 645DF, Contax 645AF, Hasselblad V and Hasselblad H1/H2/H4x. For a full list of supported cameras check the specs.


Q: Does the Leaf Credo offer on-screen Live View?
A: YES! Live View works both when shooting tethered or untethered!


Q: What files format does the Leaf Credo produce?
A: The RAW file format is called IIQL (large) or IIQS (small) The IIQ stands for "intelligent image quality".


Q: Can I open the files in Photoshop/Lightroom?
A: We are working with Adobe to ensure that one of their future versions will support the Leaf Credo files.


Q: Does it offer better long exposure performance than my Aptus-II back?
A: YES. The maximum exposure time has been increased to two minutes (Credo 80) and one minute (Credo 60 and 40).
Q: What type of CF cards should I use?
A: The Leaf Credo supports most UDMA 6 cards from the main brands. We will have a full list of tested/supported models before the product ships.


Q: Can I use my existing Aptus accessories?
A: A Leaf Credo back comes with a new set of accessories (i.e. batteries, chargers and FW cables). Some accessories, for example, the charger can still be used once the insert plate is replaced.


Q: Can the Leaf Credo be used on a view or a tech camera outdoors?
A: YES!!! The added functionality of Live View and bi-directional spirit level, along with the very bright screen, enclosed battery and weather sealing make the Leaf Credo the perfect tool for shooting in the great outdoors.


Q: What do I need in order to use the Leaf Credo on my RZ PRO II?
A: We have several adapters for all RZ types including the PROII and they come with all the necessary accessories: sync cables, remote cables and focusing screens suitable for the type of back mount and sensor size.


Q: Can I use my existing Leaf adapter on my RZ PROII?
A: If you already have an adapter for your existing back, you may be able to use it, depending on your current back’s mount (for example if the adapter is for H mount it’ll take the new back). You will also need to change some of the cables.


Q: Can I use the Leaf Credo with a low-powered MacBook Pro, an iMac or a Windows based laptop?
A: YES! The Leaf Credo uses an internal battery, ensuring that the back has enough power to work tethered, regardless of the voltage of the FireWire or USB3.0 port in the computer.

Tip: The Leaf Credo also has a built-in battery charger so the battery gets charged through the FireWire/USB 3.0 cable.



Q: Can I connect the Leaf Credo to the Thunderbolt port on my Mac?
A: Currently there are no off-the-shelf, reliable hardware/software solutions for connecting FireWire or USB devices to Thunderbolt.


Q: Is there an AFi/Hy6 mount version of the Leaf Credo?
A: The Leaf Credo is made in four different mounts but not in AFi/Hy6 mount. The AFi-II 10 and AFi-II 12 backs are still in production and provide the perfect digital solution for this platform, including a tilt-screen and a rotating sensor.

 

Q: Does the V-mount Leaf Credo back include a rotating sensor like the Aptus-II R?
A: The Aptus-II 10R and Aptus-II 12R are still in production and maintain the unique rotating sensor capability.


Q: In the studio, can I use the Leaf Credo with Schneider Electronic-Shutters and the Schneider software?
A: YES: You will need the cable that connects the Leaf Credo to the Schneider USB box. The cable is normally provided by Schneider.



Q: In the studio, can I use the Leaf Credo with Schneider Electronic-Shutters and the shutter controller as I do with my Aptus-II back?
A: YES, however Capture One will not be able to control the shutter (like it does with the Aptus-II) so you will have to use the controller for this. If you’re looking to upgrade to a higher resolution back and shoot mostly in the studio then the Aptus-II 10/12 present a fantastic price/ performance value.


Q: In the studio, can I use the Leaf Credo with Rollei Electronic Shutters and the shutter controller as I do with my Aptus-II back?
A: YES, however Capture One will not be able to control the shutter (like it does with the Aptus-II) so you will have to use the controller for this. If you’re looking to upgrade to a higher resolution back and shoot mostly in the studio then the Aptus-II 10/12 present a fantastic price/ performance value.


Q: Is the Credo supported by Leaf Capture?
A: The Leaf Credo is designed to work seamlessly with Capture One in order to maximize its outstanding image quality; therefore it is not supported by Leaf Capture.


Q: I just took delivery of a new Aptus-II 10 and I’m interested in the Leaf Credo 60. Can I get a special discount on this upgrade?
A: Please contact your Mamiya Leaf dealer so that we can look into a suitable solution for you.





Fred -

No, USB is not currently active in either the Leaf Credo products, nor the Phase One IQ products. There's no need for you to wonder any longer, regardless of what the feature-drivem marketing materials from Leaf or Phase One's website may state. You may consider USB to be "pretty standard stuff", but obviously it's not as simple as you may feel, otherwise, they'd have it ready to go. If they can be at fault for anything, it would be for not portraying the USB port as a "future-proof" port. I believe they could be excused for putting the hardware in, as long as they cautioned the activation of that port would be some ways out (obviously they were more optimistic than reality dictated).
 


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 06, 2012, 11:47:45 pm
.....

You may consider USB to be "pretty standard stuff", but obviously it's not as simple as you may feel, otherwise, they'd have it ready to go.

.....

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

I may consider USB "pretty standard stuff".....

USB is pretty much as standard as you can get. Literally thousands and thousands of devices use USB. In particular in imaging devices ... scanners, cameras, flash systems, you name it. It's just a communication protocol. It's just a question of implementing the protocol unless there is some design fault that is making this difficult or not possible to implement. This also must be a problem on the backs because Capture One already works with USB cameras.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 07, 2012, 12:19:48 am
Okay Fred you've more than made your point.  Digital medium format is not good, the mechanics suck, image quality is subpar; in general nothing beats a Nikon unless it's a Fuji and you're using film. Mamiya, Leaf and of course the arch enemy Phase are all a bunch of hypocritical liars and should all be banished from the world.   

Have I missed anything?  Of course you'll be more that pleased to let me know if I've missed anything.

 :P
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Kitty on November 07, 2012, 02:13:34 am
Is it possible to use USB3.0 with MFB in future?
USB3.0 is faster than FW800 and quite common found one new computer.

I just realize that it doesn't support any MFB at the moment. Quite surprise.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: yaya on November 07, 2012, 02:39:22 am
Hello,

This would be a good time for Yair to chime in and tell everyone what is going on and how it connects.

Cheers

Simon

Credo and IQ users will be the first to know as soon as USB3.0 is enabled and released.

Read this (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/11/the-whiners-room.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Fsethsmainblog+%28Seth%27s+Blog%29)

Yair

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 03:22:18 am
Yanick from the topic it's not clear what are you looking for....also "options in the market in 2012+" is a bit broad...

Your opening post suggests that you'd specifically like to compare the H5D to the H5D, but then you mention USB3.0....

Technical specs and product images of all current and soon-to-be-available MF models exist on the manufacturers' websites. I think that's where you should start your research. It'll give you a good idea of things like cable positioning, connention types, frame rates, iso range etc.

You can put it all in One Excel sheet so that other members can make use of this information

BR

Yair

So Yaya..... you tell this guy to look at the manufacturers websites for information on cable positioning and connection types....
Yet you fail to mention to him that while your website says the Credo has USB the site does not mention that it does not work.
That doesn't exactly spank of honesty now does it.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 03:28:01 am
Okay Fred you've more than made your point.  Digital medium format is not good, the mechanics suck, image quality is subpar; in general nothing beats a Nikon unless it's a Fuji and you're using film. Mamiya, Leaf and of course the arch enemy Phase are all a bunch of hypocritical liars and should all be banished from the world.   

Have I missed anything?  Of course you'll be more that pleased to let me know if I've missed anything.

 :P

Spoken like a spoiled 5 year old. ::) ::)

When have I ever said that the image quality was sub par. Also never said nothing beats a Fuji with film. In case you want to know my preferred format was Polaroid 8x10 (and
for a full disclosure ... yes I was blessed to be sponsored by Polaroid.

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: MrSmith on November 07, 2012, 03:35:24 am
Why not find out the truth? Now apple are dropping FireWire on some of their laptops anyone looking to tether without an adapter or using the thuderbolt port for a display or drive without a passthrough port would want to use the USB3 ports that are faster than FW800.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 03:40:22 am


Read this (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/11/the-whiners-room.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Fsethsmainblog+%28Seth%27s+Blog%29)

Yair



Maybe you need to see this;)

http://youtu.be/O9xRhwmHBBE (http://youtu.be/O9xRhwmHBBE)

or

http://youtu.be/YI6SG2aeQPM (http://youtu.be/YI6SG2aeQPM)

or this..... just incase you want to BS the governator

http://youtu.be/S1QzZ15-L38 (http://youtu.be/S1QzZ15-L38)

and an expert on the matter:

http://youtu.be/AtK_YsVInw8 (http://youtu.be/AtK_YsVInw8)

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: gerald.d on November 07, 2012, 06:37:23 am
Credo and IQ users will be the first to know as soon as USB3.0 is enabled and released.

Read this (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/11/the-whiners-room.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Fsethsmainblog+%28Seth%27s+Blog%29)

Yair



I thought that link was going to be to some news on the matter :)

Yair - can you confirm that both the IQ and the Credo have a USB port that will fit that connector in the Wikipedia image I linked to earlier?

Kind regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: yaya on November 07, 2012, 07:34:46 am
Yair - can you confirm that both the IQ and the Credo have a USB port that will fit that connector in the Wikipedia image I linked to earlier?

Kind regards,

Gerald.

Hi Gerald, the cable that is supplied with the backs (3 metres) looks like the one on the left in this image:

(http://www.asrock.com/support/faq/079-01.jpg)

If you look at the little door on the left hand side of your IQ you will see that it is moulded with the same shape

Yair
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: gerald.d on November 07, 2012, 07:58:12 am
Cheers.

I assume you mean left though, yes? :)

Just out of interest, what is the difference between that connection and the one I linked to?

Kind regards,


Gerald.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: yaya on November 07, 2012, 08:29:05 am
Cheers.

I assume you mean left though, yes? :)

Just out of interest, what is the difference between that connection and the one I linked to?

Kind regards,


Gerald.


Yes of course Left...thanks!

The smaller connector is normally used for small peripherals such as portable hard drives etc.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 07, 2012, 09:33:18 am
Spoken like a spoiled 5 year old. ::) ::)

When have I ever said that the image quality was sub par. Also never said nothing beats a Fuji with film. In case you want to know my preferred format was Polaroid 8x10 (and
for a full disclosure ... yes I was blessed to be sponsored by Polaroid.



I've noticed Fred when you don't have a solid defense or want to ignore something you deflect. "Spoken like a spoiled 5 year old"?  Your response is more like the school yard bully that when he can't think of anything else to say he yells and stamps his feet attempting to start a fight.  You've made it clear many times both here and at other places your dislike for anything from Phase, Leaf and Mamiya.

You say you've left digital medium format behind yet you continue to attack the format with argumentative posts and providing nothing but a negative attitude in general.  You are continually asked to supply your own samples to back up your theories yet you continue deflect and ignore.

I'll admit my posting was part tongue-in-cheek and part sarcasm.  Your response was expected and you didn't disappoint.

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Gigi on November 07, 2012, 09:49:39 am
Can you both please retreat to your corners and nurse your feelings quietly? Lets move on.....
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 07, 2012, 10:06:17 am
Can you both please retreat to your corners and nurse your feelings quietly? Lets move on.....

Sorry (sort of...)

 :P
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Ken Doo on November 07, 2012, 11:22:25 am
Leaf Credo USB 3.

Is it working yet? ....

Not buying... may need to rent....

Why is it that I find this incredibly hard to believe, and instead I see an incredibly thinly veiled (very thin indeed) attempt to mask yet another crusade against medium format digital.  Feigned ignorance about the IQ/Credo implementation of USB3, from what seems to be a master Google searcher?  ::)  For someone who so publicly denounced medium format digital, about as close as you can get to damning the entire medium format digital industry, and proclaiming the new messiah had been found in the Nikon D800 (nay, seated at the right hand of the Fuji GX680) you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time in the medium format forums.  IMHO, your personal bias and nattering nay-bob of negativity crusade diminishes your credibility in other photographic subject matter outside of medium format digital, which is too bad since it seems you do have actual experience to share in other areas.  Andy Biggs' troll definition or button?  If there were an ignore button implemented, there would probably be nary a thread left from you with a positive contribution to medium format digital.  In legal parlance, there is something called standing.  You lack standing because you admittedly don't have a MFDB. You have condemned the whole industry, and gone to Nikon.  No reason for you to complain (anymore) though others with MFDBs may.  Different cameras platforms, formats, etc. are just tools. Everyone has different needs/expectations/desires.  I certainly have no need for the paternalistic and patronizing attitude.

USB3 doesn't work with the IQ or Credo yet; that's no big secret.  But I think it'd just be easier to say not only does USB3 not work, but medium format digital as a whole just doesn't work for you either.  We got that long ago.  But firewire does work for a tethered solution and it is rock solid if you do need to rent.  My guess is that the delay in implementing USB3 may have to do with the recently released Capture One Pro 7.  Sometimes it's just better to wait to get things to play together nicely.  Is the lack of USB3 implementation a deal-killer for you?  I doubt it; you left and condemned in a huff the entire medium format digital industry long ago.  Quite frankly, forget medium format digital. You have a D800 and it does everything possible for you without the need for a MFDB.  DxO told you so.

Leaving medium format digital?  Oh well, Buh-bye.

http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/02/video-buh-bye-from-snls-total-bastard-airlines/#.UJp6c4fAfNI

 ;D
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 11:42:30 am
USB3 doesn't work with the IQ or Credo yet; that's no big secret. 

Just one question for you. Don't you think that it would be honest to state under specification on the Mamiya Leaf website that
USB 3 is not implemented yet and that there is as of now no date by which it will be implemented.

Rather funny that you question my credibility while you just have a knee jerk fan boy reaction to anything you don't like to hear about
your idols.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 11:50:13 am
Credo and IQ users will be the first to know as soon as USB3.0 is enabled and released.

Read this (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/11/the-whiners-room.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Fsethsmainblog+%28Seth%27s+Blog%29)

Yair



Still no time frame after more than a year with the IQ and a bit less than that with the Credo.
Don't you think it would be more honest to state on the websites that it is or may be a future feature,
and that it does not function currently.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Ken Doo on November 07, 2012, 12:13:39 pm
Just one question for you. Don't you think that it would be honest to state under specification on the Mamiya Leaf website that
USB 3 is not implemented yet and that there is as of now no date by which it will be implemented.

Rather funny that you question my credibility while you just have a knee jerk fan boy reaction to anything you don't like to hear about
your idols.

Are you asking the question of me since I actually have "standing"--own and use a MFDB?   ::)  Sorry, Fred maybe it's because I'm not so easily bothered by any marketing whatsoever and can make decisions independently whether or not a tool is appropriate for me to buy/use.  Fan boy?  Really, Fred?  Do you really want to draw out personal biases?     ???   ::)

I shoot with a DSLR (Canon btw and previously Nikon), Micro 4/3, Phase IQ180 with Phase DF and Cambo.  I see (and enjoy) the strengths and weaknesses of all these systems/tools.  No idols, but favorites of the moment as needed for work and enjoyment. I like cameras. I like photography. What a great time to have all these choices.  But puh-lease, stop with the paternalistic silliness.  It's like an obsession for you this personal crusade of yours against medium format digital.  Counseling comes to mind here; it's surprising how much Phase/Mamiya/Leaf (sometimes even the venerable H) have gotten under your skin.  I think what bothers you is how can others be so ignorant and not see the light of your ways, following you like Moses to the promised land of the D800.  Blasphemy!   ::)

You're bothered by anything Phase/Mamiya/Leaf/Hasselblad/et al. may say or do. We get that. Medium Format Digital ain't for you. We get that. All this angst you have about a camera platform/system/format that you don't even own or use can't be healthy and I'm sure the entire LL community is worried for your well-being.  Make a clean break and just say, "buh-bye."   :D

I guess this means you won't be renting a MFDB afterall.  That's not a surprise.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: bcooter on November 07, 2012, 01:03:10 pm
Fred,

Did some guy from Denmark run off with your girlfriend?  (insert silly smiley face here).

I'm not trying to insert myself into this, but I'm seriously curious about what problems you had with the phase/mamiya back and camera?

I know that as a company, Phase can be difficult, but so can Canon and RED and probably any company depending on the issue.

What I don't get is what problems you had with the equipment. 

I'll admit I never was a fan of the Mamiya 645 AF but the later DF itineration I recently tried was night a day compared to the original mamiya 645 autofocus.  The lenses felt great, the body was robust, the focusing was very good, I thought almost equal to the Hasselblad which is the leader in mfd autofocus.

In fact I think in ways the DF was a very nice camera and as far as Phase backs, I've known a lot of people use their for a lot of years (heck I have a friend in Paris that still uses his lightphase) and never had an issue.

Phase makes tough stuff, at least the older backs that I'm familiar with and no they're not perfect backs but I sometimes think I could drive nails with mine and though I can shoot much faster with almost any dslr, in todays world we're all looking for an edge in look and I think a ccd based camera or back gives that as long as you have enough light.

I know Phase as a company has problems communicating, but their dealers don't.   

There are two that frequent this forum that know more about Phase products than probably Phase does (I'm serious).

In regards to Leaf, my original Aptus 22 had problems (it was one of the very first Aptus shipped), but Yair knows everything there is in the world about Leaf, stayed on top of it, (heck he probably bleeds Leaf green) and I'm not saying that because I know and like him (I do) because at times we've had some knock down drag outs, but really does know and  stand behind what he sells.

The only other serious problems I've had with digital was with the Canon 1ds2 and I could write a book (I think I almost did) and even though it wasn't the best experience it didn't keep me from buying Canons then or even later and trust me, at the time I and other's had enough issues with the 1ds2 to stage a hunger strike at CPS.

If you'r comparing price, then nothing is going to get close to a D800 (not even the Pentax) and though I like saving money as much as anyone, I don't think turning a profit is a dirty word, regardless of how the world seems to view success today.  (at least the Left Coast view of success and I can say that with a smile because I've spent a lot of years and investment in El Lay).

All professional camera equipment has a serious premium and depreciates quickly (except for c-stands) including your Fuji 680.  I owned one and once digital hit the door those cameras went from serious money to the price of a pet rock and really there is no digital solution for that camera.  Even Fuji made a back for it in Japan and dropped that thought in about an hour.

Heck, my RED1 cameras just dropped in price (by RED) to less than half but I did and continue to make money and content with them, so for me nothing really changed because I'm not in the camera selling business.

And in regards to your USB 3 post, come on man, I have less issues with camera connections than I do with Apple constantly changing their hardware interface. 

Man I've got about 8 billion firewire devices and I'm not worried about thunderbolt or firewire or usb 3 because my capture computers will run for 4 years (at least) and I can promise you I can buy refurbished ones for another 4 years.   I can't blame the mfd makers for those issues because Apple constantly tosses stuff out faster than Gov. Christie can eat a Big Mac.

But even though this response has gone all around the houses, I'm serious in asking what issues you had, because I am looking at new mfd cameras.

IMO

BC


Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: gazwas on November 07, 2012, 01:13:18 pm
Fred, I was going to side with you on this one as I think this is disgusting that these companies advertise the next generation of connectivity when it clearly doesn't function and quite possibly never will. Issues like this see me keeping a firm hold of my P65 as any camera manufacturer must have USB3 or Thunderbolt integration for use in the future.

What started as a question for help has now with your last post of "Do you think it honest" rant is going back over the same old ground as every other topic you start.  Zzzzzzzzz

You must have something interesting to say Fred with all your experience but you just come across as a grumpy old man, moaning to anyone who will listen.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 01:57:07 pm
I've noticed Fred when you don't have a solid defense or want to ignore something you deflect.



Looks clear as day that you are deflecting and I'm not the one that needs a solid defense....

Mamiya Leaf is the one that states that the Credo has USB 3

From Specifications
Quote
Connectivity   FireWire 800, USB 3.0, USB 2.0

From Features
Quote
Capture speeds as fast as 1.2 frames per second
Fastest image transfer speed through the use of advanced FireWire 800, USB 3.0 and UDMA CompactFlash technologies.

Website Banner:
(http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/images/products/credo/Credo-banner.jpg)

From the current product brochure
Quote
A choice of FireWire 800 or USB 3 / USB 2 connection to a Mac or a
PC with fast capture rate and Capture One workflow create excellent
conditions for studio work.

Quote
Storage and
connectivity
CompactFlash inc. UDMA 6 & 7, Firewire 800, USB 3, USB 2

As far as I can see no mention anywhere in the website or the brochure that neither USB 3 or USB 2 is currently not supported.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 02:00:09 pm
USB3 on the Credo/IQ backs is a very sore subject!

Beginning to think its just broken and will never be stitched on in this generation of backs...... sigh.  :-[

You state this, but then criticize me for suggesting that listing USB as a feature when it does not work is dishonest is not acceptable. ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 02:24:02 pm
Fred,

Did some guy from Denmark run off with your girlfriend?  (insert silly smiley face here).

IMO

BC


That's a bit harsh :o
Actually I'm very happily married to my drop dead beautiful first significant girlfriend.... together for over 30 years.


Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 07, 2012, 02:26:21 pm
Looks clear as day that you are deflecting and I'm not the one that needs a solid defense....

Mamiya Leaf is the one that states that the Credo has USB 3

From Specifications
From Features
Website Banner:
(http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/images/products/credo/Credo-banner.jpg)

From the current product brochure
As far as I can see no mention anywhere in the website or the brochure that neither USB 3 or USB 2 is currently not supported.

Fred - It doesn't matter what I say as a response you'll just nick pick it apart.  However.

And this qualifies as beating an already very dead horse....

Phase, Leaf and Mamiya do not at this time have a "working" USB3 port.  They do in fact have a USB3 port which is better than not having one at all. 

Will they fix the problem and have it working?  I believe so as I have trust in what Phase has so far offered. 

Please give it a rest as it's getting extremely tiring listening to all the same load of crap.  And yes I said crap so go ahead and call me a 5 year old. 

Anyone who is remotely interested in buying a back should do their research (as you know Google is your friend) both on-line but through a reputable dealer (and not E-Bay).  Ask the questions, kick the tires, take it out for a test drive.  You shouldn't but anything worth thousands of dollars without doing your research first.  Reminded me of a story I just heard where a couple replaced a quad door refrigerator never first opening the door in the showroom.  Once it was delivered they soon found out the ice/water dispenser was huge compared to their old refrigerator forcing them to but a smaller refrigerator to make up for the lost space.

No matter what I say, unless I totally agree with you will be met with your typical response so have at it bud.

Oh and by the way - are you even thinking of responding to bcooters request for information/clarification or are you going to deflect yet again?

Don


Still waiting for the ignore button
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 07, 2012, 03:02:39 pm
Hi BC,

That is good info! Thanks for making that clear!

I guess that experience is somewhat personal. Some have a good experience and some have a bad experience. A seasoned professional has a lot of experience.

I guess that I should not post on this forums as I only have positive experience of 135/120 (film) and DSLRs for something like 40 years.

Best regards
Erik

Fred,
...
I'll admit I never was a fan of the Mamiya 645 AF but the later DF itineration I recently tried was night a day compared to the original mamiya 645 autofocus.  The lenses felt great, the body was robust, the focusing was very good, I thought almost equal to the Hasselblad which is the leader in mfd autofocus.

...
IMO

BC



Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 07, 2012, 03:34:04 pm
Right with you Erik; I'm turning 65 soon and have been shooting for a very long time.

I too had great experience with film however I've left that format behind after embracing digital.  I had one of the first 1Ds to come out and liked it until the 1DsII.  Never had a major problem or concern with the 1DsII however decided to switch to medium format.  We have a 1DsIII that has given no problems and is a stellar tool for what it does.  I began medium format with film however quickly went with first a P30+ then on to a P45+ then a P65 and now a IQ160.  Next year?  Who knows.  I wasn't that much of a fan of the AF and left to shoot nearly 100% with a tech cam until just last year when I added the DF.  Night and day difference and I'm very pleased.

Keep posting your thoughts and experiences; it only gets old when continuing rants being made.

Just my 2¢

Don
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 07, 2012, 04:35:32 pm

Oh and by the way - are you even thinking of responding to bcooters request for information/clarification or are you going to deflect yet again?

Don


Still waiting for the ignore button


bcooter only asked me less than an hour ago.....

Also you don't have to wait for the ignore button... just don't read or even better reply to my posts...  ;)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 07, 2012, 04:40:58 pm
This conversation has lasted way longer than it would have if it were in person.

Going for a beer now...
 :P
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: EricWHiss on November 08, 2012, 01:30:47 am
I can't figure out why someone who doesn't own or use a product would go to so much trouble to raise petty issues like this one over and over again.  It's not like the  Credo or IQ backs don't work.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: HarperPhotos on November 08, 2012, 02:50:44 am
Hello,

Personally I don’t think it is a petty issue.

How can a manufacturer advertise a feature in its product and it doesn’t work full stop.

If a car manufacturer did this the would have law suits thrown at them.

I am a happy Leaf user so please don’t call me a troll or that I have a Nikon agenda as I don’t but there advertising is simply misleading.

This is all I am going to say on this matter.

Good day

Simon
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: bcooter on November 08, 2012, 04:05:07 am
Hello,

Personally I don’t think it is a petty issue.

How can a manufacturer advertise a feature in its product and it doesn’t work full stop.

If a car manufacturer did this the would have law suits thrown at them.

I am a happy Leaf user so please don’t call me a troll or that I have a Nikon agenda as I don’t but there advertising is simply misleading.

This is all I am going to say on this matter.

Good day

Simon

Simon,

I agree with you  and if I was one that bought the back with usb3 as a large part of my decision, I'd be pissed.

Then again I think all of us have learned to take all digital claims with some caution. 

I don't think it's intentionally misleading, (don't know for sure) but I think that a lot of companies rush product to market only to find out somewhere down the line of 1's and 0's a feature won't work.

Not that any of this makes it right but I can name nearly every device that has a digital component to miss the mark from introduction advertising to final delivery.  I have owned products from Apple, Canon, RED, Sony (it's a long list) that never made every feature "really" work. 

In regards to cars did you ever drive the first BMW's I drive vehicles, or Ford's latest touch system?   Just turning the heat on and off is borderline dangerous. 

I have one high performance GM product that had a factory sold turbo upgrade that costs me 8 months, one transmission, 12 trips to the dealer and finally a few thousand in custom fabrication just to make it work.

Once again, this shouldn't happen and I'm not naming those products as bad or use them as an excuse, but I find it's just not that uncommon.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Gigi on November 08, 2012, 07:35:59 am
Didn't they used to call this "a tempest in a teapot"?

These small manufacturers put together a complicated product, they outline the specs for their marketing folks, not everything is totally in synch... what else is new? 99% of the product is as marketed, and yes, they overstated the "better than film" 'cause as we know, you have to say what film, what size, where, and under what conditions...but who really puts down $$ on the basis of a marketing sheet?

One could imagine a conversation with a dealer: the customer is trying out a new back at a store and asks "what is this?" pointing the USB3 port. The salesperson replies: "its upcoming and not working yet". 'nuf said?

Emphasis on small manufacturers - they aren't Ford or GM - these small groups are running around trying to make ends meet, and while they should  be more clear in their marketing material ("provisional, for future use"), they probably are just making the decision to let this go. Thank goodness Phase has kept Leaf alive, as that's the more important issue. Thank you Phase, and if that means a wee bit of sloppiness in their marketing material for Leaf (they probably aren't throwing their best marketing people there), well, that's OK with me. They still make a great product, one that delivers the goods.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: torger on November 08, 2012, 08:02:28 am
This is quite typical in business-to-business marketing. You claim to have things that are not yet implemented.

In some business it is quite typical to put all sorts of features in marketing material just to test if there is customer interest, and not until you get interest you start to implement. It is sort of okay, because everyone involved knows how it works.

MF has been an isolated market with their own rules and expectations. If you get a version 1.0 digital back you are supposed to expect that there are bugs in the firmware, that you as the customer is involved in the testing, and that support from a good dealer is required. You may also need to take some features with a grain of salt, until you see for yourself if they really work.

With mass-market products like Canon or Nikon DSLRs this kind of behavior is impossible. It would be too much support overhead of releasing not-thoroughly-tested-products, and you'd get too many consumers upset if you don't deliver the features stated in the marketing material. But with the huge volume of sales comes large testing and development budgets, so you have much better possibility to fulfill this than when you make small volume products like digital backs.

Now when the image quality gap is smaller than ever MFDB makers may need to think this over though...
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: EricWHiss on November 08, 2012, 10:56:50 am
Yes, let me clarify.... if I had bought one of these expecting to use only USB3 then I'd say it was a legitimate issue.   But if I had spent most of my time on LuLa posting about how much better the D800 is than any medium format back is and I started a post complaining about the lack of USB3 on a product that I would never use when it has a tethering solution, then yes, I'd call that petty.   It's a shame when someone who has a lot of knowledge about photography wants to spend his time on posts like this, feigning some kind of consumer watch dog,  instead of sharing something really valuable like working experiences with people, lighting or camera gear.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Guy Mancuso on November 08, 2012, 11:33:12 am
Just to be clear it was very well known that buying a IQ back that USB 3 was NOT and I repeat NOT available at the announcement of its IQ back. I bought the IQ 160 long after the IQ 180 was announced and it was still well known this feature was not available. This came from Phase itself, dealers and of course on the forums. It was no secret at all it was not ready to be used. I cant confirm as i do not remember if it was brought up on the Credo backs or not as i did not pay much attention to it at the time and Firewire 800 was the go to tethered connection anyway. My best guess USB 3 would not speed up tethering by any appreciable amount since Firewire 800 on the IQ back is extremely fast out of the gate ( other bottlenecks are more the issue). Also no Apple product had USB 3 available anyway ( outside a PCI board on a MP) up until very recently so for many of us we could not even begin to put it to use. Now not sure of the hold up and I am certainly sure it is of a technical nature that a hurdle is trying to be climbed and I won't curse Phase or not on it since it was build as a future connection right out of the gate on announcement. This is what i at least remember from those days but I don't necessarily disagree that it should be out by now. Honestly not sure of the holdup or technical issues they have to deal with it but honestly I have USB 3 on my Nikon and its not great shakes either as it is pretty limited to 15 ft and i have had some cable issues as well as some just flat out do not work at all. Even with simple card readers i went through about 3 already that just would not connect. I have several just sitting in a drawer. One good thing to remember it is a two connection back which many cams are not anyway. I actually don't know of a back or cam that has two distinct different tethering connections. I could be wrong here but i really can't think of one. Phase and Credo owners are not sitting here holding there dicks( pardon me ladies) in there hands waiting for tethering, they do have a reliable option outside of USB 3. I have a great 30 ft Firewire 800 to 800 cable that works awesome on a IQ back, i cant say that for USB 3 as i cant get past 15 ft on my Nikon.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 08, 2012, 12:29:49 pm
Guy's right.  I completely forgot that when Phase released the IQ back they specifically stated that USB3 was an additional feature.  The way I see it is that Phase knew they wanted to add a second tethering option and rather that wait until they had all the kinks worked out they inserted the plug in from the get go; that way it's there waiting for the solution. 

I don't tether so it's never been a huge problem for me however I can see the need and thankfully there's the firewire.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Nick-T on November 08, 2012, 04:28:26 pm
Yes, let me clarify.... if I had bought one of these expecting to use only USB3 then I'd say it was a legitimate issue.   But if I had spent most of my time on LuLa posting about how much better the D800 is than any medium format back is and I started a post complaining about the lack of USB3 on a product that I would never use when it has a tethering solution, then yes, I'd call that petty.   It's a shame when someone who has a lot of knowledge about photography wants to spend his time on posts like this, feigning some kind of consumer watch dog,  instead of sharing something really valuable like working experiences with people, lighting or camera gear.

I think this post really sums up this thread.

Nick-T
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: tho_mas on November 08, 2012, 05:16:46 pm
I think this post really sums up this thread.
me too.
And if you want to stop Fred posting other childish stuff like this... simply do not reply to his posts. We don't need an "ignore button". Simply do not reply at all... and things will calm down.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 08, 2012, 06:10:48 pm
Guy's right.  I completely forgot that when Phase released the IQ back they specifically stated that USB3 was an additional feature.  The way I see it is that Phase knew they wanted to add a second tethering option and rather that wait until they had all the kinks worked out they inserted the plug in from the get go; that way it's there waiting for the solution.  

I don't tether so it's never been a huge problem for me however I can see the need and thankfully there's the firewire.


Well wouldn't it be simple, nice, honest and clear if MamiyaLeaf just stated on it's website that it isn't working yet.
Seems very simple to me.

It's really rather sad that you all get your nickers in a twist that someone points this out.

If you all just didn't kiss Phase and Mamiya Leaf's touchie you may actually end up with a better product and  a better company. ;)

What would you all have had to say if Canon, Hasselblad or Nikon had added HDMI to a camera, listed it as a feature, but not have it working?

The interesting thing is that I get a lot of messages from people considering MF thanking me for pointing out much of the marketing and fan boy BS
and blatant miss information. Pointing these people to side by side comparissons and documented BS leads them to not buy into MFD.
With the recent leaps in quality in other formats it really doesn't take much..... rather satisfying I have to admit after my experience with the DF system.
 
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 08, 2012, 07:41:33 pm
I have a great 30 ft Firewire 800 to 800 cable that works awesome on a IQ back, i cant say that for USB 3 as i cant get past 15 ft on my Nikon.

This works for me:

http://www.siig.com/it-products/usb/extenders/usb-3-0-active-repeater-cable-20m.html (http://www.siig.com/it-products/usb/extenders/usb-3-0-active-repeater-cable-20m.html)

60ft. Very nice build, but a bit expensive. I have a shorter one too. I think it's 10m 30ft

Works with my friends motion capture gear too that needs very consistent performance.

Just be sure to use this to go into the extender:
Type A to Micro-B cable

http://www.siig.com/it-products/cables/usb/usb-3-0/superspeed-usb-type-a-m-to-micro-b-1m.html (http://www.siig.com/it-products/cables/usb/usb-3-0/superspeed-usb-type-a-m-to-micro-b-1m.html)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Kitty on November 08, 2012, 09:12:00 pm
Thanks Fred for sharing your experience here especially about USB3.0
I am MFB user. I may not agree with everything e.g. DSLR D800.
But I learn from everyone everyday. Thanks everyone for sharing your idea.
I believe USB3.0 will be standard in every computer in future. Just when.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Frank Doorhof on November 08, 2012, 10:28:13 pm
When you only rent use firewire800
The images are the same.....

But as mentioned before you probably won't rent but just want to rant ;)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 08, 2012, 10:46:49 pm
When you only rent use firewire800
The images are the same.....

But as mentioned before you probably won't rent but just want to rant ;)

True Firewire 800 works..... So do cards.....

However I have just one question for you seeing you lend your name and face to Mamiya Leaf

(http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/homebanner/Home_page_banner_photographers.jpg)

Don't you think it would be more clear, honest and simple to state on the Mamiya Leaf website that USB 3
is not supported yet?

Simple question ;)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Frank Doorhof on November 08, 2012, 11:39:52 pm
Of course it would, but I don't see a reason to rant about it.
Maybe they could add (future proof with usb3 to be activated)
FireWire 800 works flawless and is available on all machines.
It would be different if the image quality or speed was better on usb3.

I would love to be able to work with usb3 because the cables are less stiff and I fly a lot so everything I can save on space and weight is a big plus.

But I'm just waiting for it.
Anyway when you spend that amount of money on something I expect you to do your homework and when you ask a dealer they will say that it's not supported yet, same with Moire, when I started MF I knew all the pluses and minuses, I'm not spending that amount of money without knowing everything from a-z.

So for me it's just a matter of wanting to find something and rant about from your side, you already made 100% clear that you like the d800 more than MF (and that's ok) so why bother...... I'm working with my DSLR, Fuji, MF etc. and choosing which one I need for the end result, my end result is exactly the same with FireWire or USB.

And if I don't care,why would someone that doesn't shoot the format anyway ?
Not saying I would love for it to work, but I can spend my time better than worrying about it, and I OWN one ;)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Frank Doorhof on November 08, 2012, 11:40:52 pm
Oh and one more thing.
I don't lend my name to leaf or phase one.
I pay for my gear, I don't get paid for the images they use from me, I'm just a very enthusiastic user. 
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 09, 2012, 12:24:21 am
Hi Fred,

It is just a stupid question and also a disrespectful one. Frank is one of the good guys sharing his experience, he has been an RZ user for eternal times.

I don't think it is OK to jump on any on these forums, just because you have some bad feelings about some product.

Best regards
Erik




Don't you think it would be more clear, honest and simple to state on the Mamiya Leaf website that USB 3
is not supported yet?

Simple question ;)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 09, 2012, 12:58:54 pm
Oh and one more thing.
I don't lend my name to leaf or phase one.
I pay for my gear, I don't get paid for the images they use from me, I'm just a very enthusiastic user.  

I never implied that you were getting free gear or getting paid. Sorry if you understood it that way.

Lending you name to something means you give them the OK you use your name and your endorsement of the product.
It does not mean that you get paid for it.

You are correct about "doing the homework"..... it's just much easier when the information is clear, "honest" and accurate.
Doing your homework should not require correcting incomplete and inaccurate information on a prominent feature detailed on the website of the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 09, 2012, 01:05:47 pm


I would love to be able to work with usb3 because the cables are less stiff and I fly a lot so everything I can save on space and weight is a big plus.



While USB 3 cables can be slimmer and less stiff they will not work very well with longer cables.
The most reliable USB3 cables are just as stiff as the good fire wire cables.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 09, 2012, 01:38:16 pm


I don't think it is OK to jump on any on these forums, just because you have some bad feelings about some product.

Best regards
Erik



Bad feelings?

I bought a DF system and had bad experience with multiple bodies.
It was a lot more than that. Camera freezes, focusing way below claimed performance, V-grip camera combination freezing randomly requiring un assembling camera, lens and grip to get things working again. Having to do this repeatedly in front of a client whose time is very very expensive is unacceptable to both the client and me.
I needed a very simple part from Phase one. The plastic plate with the alignment pins that keeps the v-grip and body aligned when mounted.
Without this the alignment would go out and the camera would freeze. It was a particular problem with longer lenses.
Neither Phase One USA, Mamiya USA or the LA dealer could come up with it after weeks of being bounced from one to the other.

So you think that it is not OK for a previous owner of a cameras system, he or she had major problems with, to be critical of the system on a public forum.
Actually outside of the immediate "fan base" of Phase/Leaf the caliber of my work and clients gives what I say quite a bit of credibility among many photographers
considering what type of camera to buy. I get many messages from prospective buyers thanking me. One even said that knowing about bugs and overstated claims helped him haggle a better price. ;) Seems helpful to me.

Due to the quality of high end DSLR cameras being virtually indistinguishable for 99% of print, advertising, catalog it really is getting easier and easier to tip the choice
in favor of 35mm systems.

These review do it nearly every time especially when the reader downloads the images and print them on high end printers that actually print better than the publications where their images are published.

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/ (http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/)

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 10, 2012, 10:58:24 am
Hi,

I feel it is OK to share bad experience. What I don't find OK is to jump on any individual sharing his/her experience.

I have read both your articles you quote, and also written my own: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts

Best regards
Erik

Bad feelings?

I bought a DF system and had bad experience with multiple bodies.
It was a lot more than that. Camera freezes, focusing way below claimed performance, V-grip camera combination freezing randomly requiring un assembling camera, lens and grip to get things working again. Having to do this repeatedly in front of a client whose time is very very expensive is unacceptable to both the client and me.
I needed a very simple part from Phase one. The plastic plate with the alignment pins that keeps the v-grip and body aligned when mounted.
Without this the alignment would go out and the camera would freeze. It was a particular problem with longer lenses.
Neither Phase One USA, Mamiya USA or the LA dealer could come up with it after weeks of being bounced from one to the other.

So you think that it is not OK for a previous owner of a cameras system, he or she had major problems with, to be critical of the system on a public forum.
Actually outside of the immediate "fan base" of Phase/Leaf the caliber of my work and clients gives what I say quite a bit of credibility among many photographers
considering what type of camera to buy. I get many messages from prospective buyers thanking me. One even said that knowing about bugs and overstated claims helped him haggle a better price. ;) Seems helpful to me.

Due to the quality of high end DSLR cameras being virtually indistinguishable for 99% of print, advertising, catalog it really is getting easier and easier to tip the choice
in favor of 35mm systems.

These review do it nearly every time especially when the reader downloads the images and print them on high end printers that actually print better than the publications where their images are published.

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/ (http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/)


Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Don Libby on November 10, 2012, 12:07:24 pm
Hi, ...I have ... also written my own: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts

Best regards
Erik


Erik, finally a non diatribe.  Just finished reading the article and found it compelling and backed up with facts not anecdotal information.

Thanks for the information.

Don
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 10, 2012, 03:26:21 pm
Don,

Thanks for the kind words!

Best regards
Erik


Erik, finally a non diatribe.  Just finished reading the article and found it compelling and backed up with facts not anecdotal information.

Thanks for the information.

Don

Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on November 11, 2012, 01:52:44 pm
From the article
Conclusion on noise in highlights & shadows

Unless some dramatic improvement happens in technology, dramatically increasing the FWC on small sensors, larger sensors will have an advantage in midtone noise.

Unless some dramatic improvement happens in technology, reducing the readout noise of large sensors, modern CMOS will have an advantage in the darks.

Findings

The IQ180 image has noisier shadows compared with the Nikon D800E image. The difference is visible in both actual pixels view and with the IQ180 image downscaled to D800E image dimensions.


However practical tests don't seem to confirm this at least when it comes to grey card testing. (upper mid tones)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8490/8175991668_ec2d091bb3_b.jpg)

It's also interesting that there is virtually no difference between the d600 and the d800 despite the difference in pixel size

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8478/8175957715_6d82362e0f_b.jpg)

Here is a comparisson between the D4 and the D800. Same generation cameras.
One with significantly larger photosites. The noise is practically identical.
The big pixel theories don't hold up.....

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8487/8177557000_6f550a518f_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 21, 2012, 01:05:41 am
Hi,

Thanks for your observation. A few observations of my own:

1) The reasoning I made essentially ignores ISO, it is about capturing the best image and for that the sensor needs to be fully utilized.

2) It seems that MF backs have much lower quantum efficiency (QE) than DSLRs, so they need a lot more light.

3) So when I  compare curves from DxO I only look at the maximum values ignoring the fact that MF curves are shifted to the left, because of low QE.

4) I actually think that significant progress may have been made on full well capacity on DSLR sensors. The figures from sensorgen point in that direction, but I'm not sure those figures are correct, partly because they give different FWC for same sensor sitting in different cameras.

Anyway:
SensorMPFWC
Nikon D3X 2448975
Sony Alpha 9002426843 (note that the sensor is basically the same as in D3X)
Nikon D60024 76231


5) The fact that D800 and D600 are quite similar in 18% SNR is that they probably use the same technology. The D800 will capture the same amount of photons per surface area as the D600. FWC is probably proportional to pixel area. So the D800 simply gives better resolution at similar noise levels.  

6) The comparison I made was between the Phase One IQ180 and as I said I compared noise at lowest ISO where FWC is utilized fully.

In this case what I see is
Camera/BackISOSNR 18%
Hasselblad H3DII3945.3
Phase One IQ1802948.7
Nikon D8007346


I guess that the IQ180 has a sensor with better FWC than the one Hasselblad uses.

Another factor slightly favoring MFD may be that the sensor don't have OLP filters. The lack of OLP filtering is beneficial to sharpness, so MFD images need less sharpening. Sharpening tends to increase noise. The downside of not having OLP filtering is that it is easy to get fake detail. The D800E has removed OLP filtering, so it is a bit more similar to MFD.

Best regards
Erik



From the article
However practical tests don't seem to confirm this at least when it comes to grey card testing. (upper mid tones)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8490/8175991668_ec2d091bb3_b.jpg)

It's also interesting that there is virtually no difference between the d600 and the d800 despite the difference in pixel size

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8478/8175957715_6d82362e0f_b.jpg)

Here is a comparisson between the D4 and the D800. Same generation cameras.
One with significantly larger photosites. The noise is practically identical.
The big pixel theories don't hold up.....

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8487/8177557000_6f550a518f_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: bradleygibson on November 22, 2012, 11:20:06 am
FredBGG, be sure to set DxO to "Screen" if you are examining pixel quality.  Set to "Print", you are comparing results after they have been downsized to 8MP.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: FredBGG on December 21, 2012, 12:24:38 am
While USB 3 cables can be slimmer and less stiff they will not work very well with longer cables.
The most reliable USB3 cables are just as stiff as the good fire wire cables.

I just want to add to this. You can actually use a thinner cable for the last 3 or 4 feet and connect to a rather stiffer
powered extension .... it's working for me.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: MrSmith on February 22, 2014, 04:39:18 am
So will a leaf credo 40 ever tether over usb3?
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 22, 2014, 07:28:37 am
So will a leaf credo 40 ever tether over usb3?

Already does. Has for many months.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: sbernthal on February 23, 2014, 03:17:38 am
Can you charge it over USB3?
I could not get a straight answer from Leaf support.
Connecting the cable you see the charge sign, but the battery gets depleted.
They gave me an answer something like it theoretically can be charged if there was enough power, but would absolutely not say anything about what card to use to give that power.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 23, 2014, 07:50:29 am
Can you charge it over USB3?
I could not get a straight answer from Leaf support.
Connecting the cable you see the charge sign, but the battery gets depleted.
They gave me an answer something like it theoretically can be charged if there was enough power, but would absolutely not say anything about what card to use to give that power.

With most ports and a short cable it will provide a maintenance charge.

For most styles of shooting this means you'll still deplete the battery, but it will last longer than if you were shooting untethered. For very slow shooting (e.g. Still life with large pauses between shots) it *might* charge faster than you deplete it.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: sbernthal on February 23, 2014, 07:54:26 am
With FW cable the battery always gets charged.
With USB3 the battery never gets charged.
I am using a desktop PC with an on board (Asus P8B75-M LX PLUS) USB3 port.
It doesn't matter how much time I leave it connected with no shots, the battery gets depleted, and it doesn't do it with FW.
I am using an official 10' cable.
Title: Re: Leaf Credo USB 3
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 23, 2014, 08:29:27 am
With FW cable the battery always gets charged.
With USB3 the battery never gets charged.
I am using a desktop PC with an on board (Asus P8B75-M LX PLUS) USB3 port.
It doesn't matter how much time I leave it connected with no shots, the battery gets depleted, and it doesn't do it with FW.
I am using an official 10' cable.

I'd have to check the firmware logs to see if "maintence charge" hasn't been added to the latest credo firmware (it has been added on the latest IQ firmware). But I'll be quite busy this week. I'd suggest working with your value added dealer. Support is meant to come from them and not direct from team phase one who set up their support network primarily to support the dealers.