Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: hortiphoto on November 03, 2012, 05:30:06 pm
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After using my NEX-7 for nearly a year, I now find that I really don't use the rear screen at all. That's got me wondering about a change in design for cameras with electronic viewfinders. Everything needed can be seen in the viewfinder, so why not get rid of the rear screen? It would save space and reduce the complexity of the electronics and software.
After all, the rear LCD came about because there was no way to reviews setting or images when the camera had an optical viewfinder or no viewfinder. Now that the optical viewfinder is gone, why have two systems? OK, it's sometimes easier to read the menus on the rear LCD and maybe using live view on a tripod is easier that way, but I can't think of anything that it's essential for.
A camera like the RX100 with an optical viewfinder instead of the screen, manual zooming and maybe with a larger sensor looks like a great idea to me.
Geoff Bryant
www.cfgphoto.com
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In my opinion, not a good idea so camera manufactures will probably adopt it - lol.
I have a GH2 and usually use it with the LCD turned into the body so that it is essentially what you suggest. But there are numerous situations that I find that I need the LCD: low/high angle, bracketing, panorama sweeps, tripod mounted, etc. The articulated LCD is a godsend me thinks.
Larry
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I agree with leiallen [sorry; I mean Larry]: with my E-M5, although I compose mostly with the "eye-level" EVF, the rear-screen is still very useful:
- for some photographic situations (like shooting small subjects close to the ground without having to lie in the mud to use the VF).
- For accessing less commonly used settings that require menus: I find it much easier to push buttons and twiddle dials for them with the camera in front of me, so I can see both the on-screen menus and the controls. The Olympus system of "super control panel" on the rear screen and the option of touch screen operation of settings are far more convenient than working with camera to eye.
Touch selection of focus point is sometimes convenient too, though I could live without it.
P. S. Why are only Micro Four Thirds user responding so far?
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Yeah, I'm with Larry on this one. My GH2 screen is almost always turned to face the camera, but I do use it for low angle and tripod work. And it's much easier to page through the menus with the large screen, say, when you are setting up the camera.
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I like the lcd and I wouldn't want to miss it for most situations, but what if you could use your smartphone or tablet as a display, for menus or even shooting (a high res tablet for tripod work would be much better than even the most articulated viewfinder (except probably for battery life).
or some sort of interchangable back, like one with a large lcd touchscreen and very few buttons if any, and another one no lcd but many buttons.
I think there are many interesting possibilities and what we have now is nowhere near perfection.
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Hi,
I'm a Sony Alpha shooter.
I'm essentially with Larry. I general I find the LCD useful for handling menus, but I also find it very useful when I shoot from tripod, and I do that a lot.
Best regards
Erik
In my opinion, not a good idea so camera manufactures will probably adopt it - lol.
I have a GH2 and usually use it with the LCD turned into the body so that it is essentially what you suggest. But there are numerous situations that I find that I need the LCD: low/high angle, bracketing, panorama sweeps, tripod mounted, etc. The articulated LCD is a godsend me thinks.
Larry
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I may not have phrased the initial post that well. A rear LCD is certainly useful and I'm not advocating removing them from all cameras. For all the miniscule extra bulk and weight having one adds to a DSLR, it's an essential.
But the current trend is towards small cameras built around large sensors. That seems to a good idea and they're popular. Bur some, like the Sony RX100 and RX1, go the compact camera route and have a rear screen with no viewfinder. There clearly isn't room for both, but it seems to me that when Sony have at their disposal such a good electronic viewfinder that can display all the information the rear screen can, why not have a viewfinder instead of a screen?
Geoff Bryant
www.cfgphoto.com
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Geoff, I'm of the same mind as you. I'll use mine to check histogram occasionally or to show someone the image I just took. BTW, the more I use the EVF of the NEX-7 the more I like it. I especially like to be able to zoom in for fine tuning of the focus.
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but what if you could use your smartphone or tablet as a display
I think you will be able to do that and control the main camera operations with the GH3 with built in wifi. At least that is what I am hoping. Can't wait til I get mine.
Larry
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... the current trend is towards small cameras built around large sensors. That seems to a good idea and they're popular. Bur some, like the Sony RX100 and RX1, go the compact camera route and have a rear screen with no viewfinder. There clearly isn't room for both ...
Geoff, I almost agree -- there could be a niche for camera bodies with EVF's that are smaller by not having a big 3" rear-screen, which is probably the main factor setting the lower limit on body size. But maybe an intermediate option would be better:
a smaller screen, like the 2.5" or even 2" ones used in the past.
This could be enough for an EVF camera where it is primarily for displaying and adjusting settings, and only on rare occasions used to frame a shot with the camera in an awkward position.
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Or better yet, drop the EVF and simply keep the rear screen like on the RX1. Shooting with the rear screen is so much more flexible.
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Or better yet, drop the EVF and simply keep the rear screen like on the RX1. Shooting with the rear screen is so much more flexible.
Not when I have to put on reading glasses to focus by LCD.
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This is yet another thread where the OP just can't resist only thinking about themselves. 'I don't use is so lets get rid of it', or 'I want it so why don't they make it for me'. Whatever happened to the idea of thinking about other people first, which coincidentally is what camera designers tend to do.
Steve
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Or better yet, drop the EVF and simply keep the rear screen like on the RX1. Shooting with the rear screen is so much more flexible.
I can only half agree, despite having defended rear screens in the past against the persistent myths of them needing unstable arms' length holding. I do find the rear screen of the EM5 very useful at times for composing, but still use the eye-level EVF a majority of the time, for advantages like the bigger apparent image size. Or am I just a slave to habits developed over decades of SLR usage? Maybe I will try spending one day composing only with the rear screen.
The bail-out option of adding an accessory EVF (which can be left at home when compactnes is the priority) does make the compactness of a rear-screen only, full-time live view camera an attractive option for many photographers ... especially when that adds the option of tilting the EVF up for tripod work and low-angle shots.
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Not when I have to put on reading glasses to focus by LCD.
Or shoot in the desert or a snow landscape. Them LCDs need about three stops more brightness.
I'm thinking I'll get a Hoodman LCD viewer loupe for my D800 if only to exclude ambient light.
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Make the EVF standard and the rear screen optional. Include interface to use pad / mobile as rear screen-
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Make the EVF standard and the rear screen optional. Include interface to use pad / mobile as rear screen-
I am not sure what you mean by "optional", given that the rear screen is heavily integrated into the body, not something that can work well as a clip-on accessory (whereas a peep-hole EVF can be an accessory.) So I think you realy mean offering a separate model with no rear-screen. And if that were the only difference from another model with rear screen, there would be little point: no significant size reduction, and any reduction in unit manufacturing costs that would probably not translate to a retail cost saving, due to the worse economies of scale of the far lower sales volume of a model without the very popular rear screen.
We are approaching the realm of numerous forum threads where posters express a purist desire for a camera that lacks some new-fangled feature like video or auto-focus, and delude themselves that there are far more other people interested in the same thing that is actually the case: the pervasive error of "false consensus". For an interesting example of that in the case of opinions on global warming, see http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/everyone-agrees-with-us-on-climate-change-especially-when-were-wrong/
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I am not sure what you mean by "optional", given that the rear screen is heavily integrated into the body, not something that can work well as a clip-on accessory (whereas a peep-hole EVF can be an accessory.) So I think you realy mean offering a separate model with no rear-screen. And if that were the only difference from another model with rear screen, there would be little point: no significant size reduction, and any reduction in unit manufacturing costs that would probably not translate to a retail cost saving, due to the worse economies of scale of the far lower sales volume of a model without the very popular rear screen.
We are approaching the realm of numerous forum threads where posters express a purist desire for a camera that lacks some new-fangled feature like video or auto-focus, and delude themselves that there are far more other people interested in the same thing that is actually the case: the pervasive error of "false consensus". For an interesting example of that in the case of opinions on global warming, see http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/everyone-agrees-with-us-on-climate-change-especially-when-were-wrong/
No, this is not a purist desire. We are not talking about removing any new features, just if we should have the view through a rear screen or through a EVF. "The song remains the same".
Very popular rear screen? How would we know that? As far as I know thee is no examples of the same model being offered with the option to choose either rear screen or EVF.
For mid to high end cameraes I assume that vendors will have to offer some kind of EVF, so why keep the rear screen?
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Very popular rear screen? How would we know that? As far as I know thee is no examples of the same model being offered with the option to choose either rear screen or EVF.
For mid to high end cameraes I assume that vendors will have to offer some kind of EVF, so why keep the rear screen?
For evidence of the popularity of rear screens:
Firstly there is the very fact you refer to, that every one of numerous cameras with EVFs from numerous companies also has a rear screen, despite the disadvantages of some extra cost and bulk. This widespread and unanimous design decision is strong evidence that all these companies judge that a large proportion of customers like the rear screen enough that would accept a hight cost and some more bulk in order to have it. Anf I am one of those strange people who trusts this industry consensus judgement over the opinions of internet forum posters (unless some solid evidence to the contrary is offered). Note that this industry-consensus judgement applies even with the relatively high-end models like the Olympus EM5, Panasonic GH3 and Sony NEX7. Even the new Leica M goes for built-in rear screen, optional EVF.
Secondly, and in answer to your final question "why", try reading the numerous comments in this thread about when and why a rear screen is useful even on a camera with an EVF.
By the way, have you tried using any EVF camera without ever using the rear screen, doing settings entirely with the EVF? The Olympus EM5 allows most settings to be done either way, but so far I greatly prefer doing such things "two-eyed" with the ability to see the buttons and dials that I am operating.
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I can only half agree, despite having defended rear screens in the past against the persistent myths of them needing unstable arms' length holding.
Well, I was only half joking. Neither extreme position is right. Still, I could live with simply a rear screen as easily as an EVF. Maybe even easier--I never had a view camera with an EVF...
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For mid to high end cameraes I assume that vendors will have to offer some kind of EVF, so why keep the rear screen?
You mean like the RX1? I don't think offering the RX1 with just an optional EVF and no rear screen will prove to be very popular, but that is just me. Alpa cameras have no EVF.
I have an E-P1 and I shoot 99% of my photographs with a rear screen, so maybe the bias to the EVF is wrong. And setting up menus on an EVF is a real pain.
And for a high-end camera, why would I want to lose the convenience of a rear screen?
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Hi,
Now, who claims to represent the masses :-) ? Perhaps your correct about rear screen and menues. I can honestly say that I do without menues. In fact I wish I had hard buttons for format sd card, ISO and lens profiles on my M9 so I could do without menues.
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The "I would like a camera to be like this" discussions are always just simply a projection of personal opinion and from people who have never designed a camera and usually with a very fixed working method. If you want an EVF only camera, then simply tape over the rear screen. ;) A camera design is always going to be a compromise. Hopefully the pluses out weight the minuses. But ultimately it come down to the photographer to learn to use the camera. The camera companies have the unthankful task of making something that is going please the largest number of people.
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Hi,
I'm a Sony Alpha shooter.
I'm essentially with Larry. I general I find the LCD useful for handling menus, but I also find it very useful when I shoot from tripod, and I do that a lot.
Best regards
Erik
I totally agree; I moved to an A65 from a Sony R1, on which I always relied upon the waist level screen (always reminded me of my old Hasselblad). I still do when shooting from a tripod. I find it a comfortable shooting position plus it allows me to keep the tripod low and hopefully more stable.
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Well, that opened a can of worms. As the original poster I have to say that most replies have missed my point or gone off on a tangent.
I'm not saying EVF good, LCD bad. Nor am I advocating doing away with either on cameras large enough to support both. My sole point was that now that EVFs are pretty good and can display the relevant information (menus, histogram, etc.), then instead of trying to shoehorn an LCD onto the back of a mirrorless camera, why not try liberating that space to either make the camera smaller or better yet to have room to add more manual controls in the space the LCD occupies? An inch wide viewfinder is smaller than a 3 inch wide screen, which is also bigger than a few small buttons or dials.
It doesn't have to be compulsory, just something someone might like to try, maybe.
Geoff Bryant
www.cfgphoto.com
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Geoff, perhaps you missed our points--the rear LCD is too important to give up for a few buttons. The LCD is not really big--would you really want a smaller Nex or compact? The cameras are already getting to the point where they are too small to hold. What practical advantage are you really getting by eliminating the LCD? Camera size certainly is not a factor.
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I can't imagine trying to press buttons and the like trying to navigate with the viewfinder up to my eye. I also can't see using features like zoomed LiveView focusing by having to put my eye up to the camera. If I could only have one, it wouldn't be the EVF. I'd rather strap a hoodman to the LCD.
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I don't watch the summer olympics. They ought to get rid of it.
I dont verb X. Therefore X should not exist.
Sounds innocent enough, if perhaps a little silly. Until someone replaces verb with "like", and X with a group of living things...
Please note: I am NOT implying anything about the OP in way. I am only pointing out how a seemingly innocuous tidbit of illogic is many times a cause of VERY BAD THINGS in this world.
why not try liberating that space to either make the camera smaller or better yet to have room to add more manual controls in the space the LCD occupies?
Like what? I wouldn't want to have a dial or knob in my face when I'm using the viewfinder. Maybe a bunch of dip switches for all the menu options? Or maybe buttons instead? But then people would complain about it looking like the FS700. OH. I know. A touch screen using a configurable tactile display (using micro-pins that extend and retract instead of pixels). Then the user could operate it with their tongue while using the viewfinder!
It doesn't have to be compulsory, just something someone might like to try, maybe.
Whew. That's a relief.