Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hasselbladfan on September 28, 2012, 12:11:44 pm

Title: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: hasselbladfan on September 28, 2012, 12:11:44 pm
Extract from an interview with Stephan Schulz (Leica) :

What is Leica's market share, in medium format digital?

We are roughly at 20%. So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: TMARK on September 28, 2012, 12:27:02 pm
Extract from an interview with Stephan Schultz (Leica) :

What is Leica's market share, in medium format digital?

We are roughly at 20%. So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.

he should add:

". . . and our service department in the USA sucks, which leads many professionals to question our commitment to producing a professional tool."
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: MrSmith on September 28, 2012, 12:34:30 pm
How are they going to become market leader? Wait for one of the others to go bust or make their product more 'affordable'?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: hasselbladfan on September 28, 2012, 12:39:19 pm
One of the rumors (before the Photokina) was that the old S2 would be sold below 10k when the new S was introduced.

That would have been a great idea (selling a lot more lenses and binding consumers to their platform). But unfortunately the new S is only an evolution which cannot sustain a half price strategy.

Even Hasselblad is removing the H4D31 from their catalogue rather than selling it for 7-8k.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Fritzer on September 28, 2012, 12:45:32 pm
My guess would be that Leica has about 2% market share in digital medium format, if that .
Who's making up those numbers ?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: hasselbladfan on September 28, 2012, 12:52:59 pm
My guess would be that Leica has about 2% market share in digital medium format, if that .
Who's making up those numbers ?

Mr. Stephan Schulz, Head of professional Imaging at Leica.

Full article below.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6220714089/photokina-2012-interview-stephan-schulz-of-leica-
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: ndevlin on September 28, 2012, 12:57:05 pm
The shere difficulty in obtaining "S" bodies and lenses, coupled with Leica's vigorous dedication to the system, is pretty good corroboration that they are selling well and comprise roughly the market share Stephan cites. 

Leica will, however, have to come up with someone more compellingthan a 30-something MP CCD chip with middling higher ISO performance to keep the market interested.  Their newly public relationship with CMOSIS, and the fact they are essential custom fabricating their own chips now for the M, light a way forward for them for the "S" system as well.

- N.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Anders_HK on September 28, 2012, 01:03:43 pm
because it is the most advanced system.

BS in context of their minor improvements to S2, while DHW announcing Mod 2 and having been given the rights to further Hy6, the statement seem very odd. Hy6 is the best system current.

S system is mere crop of 645... lenses sharp yes, but so are Rollei. Digital back is more flexible.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: TMARK on September 28, 2012, 01:40:00 pm
BS in context of their minor improvements to S2, while DHW announcing Mod 2 and having been given the rights to further Hy6, the statement seem very odd. Hy6 is the best system current.

S system is mere crop of 645... lenses sharp yes, but so are Rollei. Digital back is more flexible.

The problem with both the Rollei and the S has nothing to do with their cameras, but with sales/service/support.  For the record, the Rollei is in my opinion the best of the best out there.  The S is cool, but the chip size is odd.  I don't care if its a crop from a film format, as are 645 chips on the Rollei (6x6), what I don't like is the 3:2.  I think in New York the only place to get a Rollei is Kurland, which is really consumer boutique.  With Leica, I'm sure you can special order one from any leica dealer, and now that they are opening their boutique stores in NYC and DC (DC?  Really? DC where commercial jobs where an S might be required are hardly ever shot?), availability might be better.  But my experience with their service for my digital M cameras was less than satisfactory.  I always had the feeling that they were overwhelmed. (They were brilliant for my film M cameras). 

Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: bcooter on September 28, 2012, 01:52:22 pm
The problem with both the Rollei and the S has nothing to do with their cameras, but with sales/service/support.  .......snip




I find all the talk about market share funny.

People that don't know the dow from the S+P can quote apple and Facebooks stock price, pretty much on the hour.

As far as Leica owning 20% of the mfd market, how do they get their numbers?   I've never seen Phase or Hasselblad's or Leica's posted sales numbers and we all hear rumors of "best year ever" and other quotes. who knows?

What I do know is what moves a current or prospective professional to  a new system.   First thing is how many cameras do you need.  With Leica I'd need two, because their repair times are slow.

Then you get into what Paul ask's . . . tethering.  Now i'm not wild about always tethering, but clients are.  They want to see every frame as fast and easy as possible.   As far as I know the Leica's do not tether quickly.

The thing that kind of blows me away is I went to see the S or S2 last week and the Leica Rep said, "computers, I don't know anything about computers".   The Grey perfectly hair styled ceo hobbyist standing at the counter thought that was great and humorous, I thought shit, if Leica's guys don't care about computers I'll never get these images on a screen in a timely matter, which is a shame because the camera if well built, focuses fast, has a nice file and seems well built.  The CEO was obviously the Reps main focus, me I was just a pro that would probably complain if a lens wasn't calibrated and took three weeks to get back.

Also I do use computers and send my own e-mails so obviously my response is computers . . .  I have to know computers.

Anyway . . .

The S2 is expensive but if you use them for a number of years, not too bad, well not "that" expensive until you figure in lens prices.  Then it get's into rarified air.

The thing is for me, when I look at any of the newest backs and mfd cameras, I kind of wonder what I'm gaining over my ghetto contax's and older Phase backs.  Sure a little more detail, a little faster autofocus, maybe a little bigger viewfinder with a prism, but overall since I've shot a billion paid images with the Contax's (and still do) I have to ask myself if dropping 30, 40 or 50 grand for a new system will increase my billings or give me something I just don't have.

And what does Contax have a 2% or 5% market share?  I don't care.

In fact, so many people have asked for cmos and live view on medium format, I've kind of come to a conclusion after owning a bunch of ccd and cmos cameras, that ccd's non aa filtered cameras seem to have a more robust and deeper look.  In fact I think they are less homogenous than the basic Nikon or Canon and that's the goal not to always look like one of the crowd.  BTW:  I'm not talking micro detail, heck I don't care about that as much as the overall look and it just may be the moon and sun have aligned funny, but lately I've had multiple new clients mention images we've shot that are all ccd based, thinking they were shot on  film and thinking they look different.

That's the first time I've heard that from clients, so I guess if I was selling mfd cameras rather than dodge the high iso, live view thing of cmos, I'd push the unique look of ccd's.  

If I had fast, cost effective repairs and service, I would definitely push that.

Then again, I don't sell cameras.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: lowep on September 28, 2012, 02:26:09 pm
I don't sell cameras

hell cooter with a lucid pitch like the one you just fired off maybe you should?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Dick Roadnight on September 28, 2012, 05:17:38 pm
Extract from an interview with Stephan Schulz (Leica) :

What is Leica's market share, in medium format digital?

We are roughly at 20%. So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.
Leica have never made a Medium format digital camera ¿on the nominal 6cm {120 film} definition, nor has anyone else? ¿so they have 20% of nothing?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: design_freak on September 28, 2012, 05:34:03 pm
Leica have never made a Medium format digital camera ¿on the nominal 6cm {120 film} definition, nor has anyone else? ¿so they have 20% of nothing?
If you miss it
Right now, Hasselblad H4/H5 and PhaseOne/Mamiya DF can't work with film.....    ::)
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: LKaven on September 28, 2012, 06:01:00 pm
The Leica system is both (i) expensive, and (ii) highly consolidated, which would tend to inflate cash revenues and thus overall market share.

When you buy a Leica MF system, you are committed to buying the lenses from Leica at Leica prices.  There are no legacy or third party accessories.  So to buy into the system in the first place, one is committed to spending at least $30,000-$35,000 just for a system with two lenses. 

Many buyers of MFDB have legacy bodies and lenses, and only update their backs periodically, and sometimes buy pre-owned.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Mr. Rib on September 28, 2012, 07:24:09 pm
Wow, that's some major CEO bullshit. Everyone has been taking lessons from Apple Keynotes I guess :)
And I don't mean the 20% market share which is rather dubious no matter how you look at / manipulate the numbers..
he has the guts to mention that it's THE MOST ADVANCED system? What the hell? I wouldn't mind him elaborating on that...
useless tethering? no live view? No update of the sensor in years which was inferior to many products when it was first itroduced?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Tim Jones on September 28, 2012, 07:58:00 pm
You guys know that leica makes a converter that lets you use your Hassleblad H system lenses right? Complete with AF.
I tried it and it works great . That right there makes the S way more appealing . But, on the other hand the reason for buying the camera is the magic leica lenses. But, you could get a body and use it. That thing is sexy.
Thanks,
Tim
www.tjphoto.net
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: ondebanks on September 28, 2012, 08:50:47 pm
When you buy a Leica MF system, you are committed to buying the lenses from Leica at Leica prices.  There are no legacy or third party accessories.  So to buy into the system in the first place, one is committed to spending at least $30,000-$35,000 just for a system with two lenses. 

Many buyers of MFDB have legacy bodies and lenses, and only update their backs periodically, and sometimes buy pre-owned.

Luke, check out all the "Brand X" lens-to-S2 body adapters online...where "Brand X" includes Hasselblad V, Pentax 67, and best of all, Mamiya 645. And check out the reviews and tests of adapted lenses on the S2, at reddotforum.com.

If I had an S2 I'd primarily use 3rd party lenses on it. Right now, it is the only way to shoot Mamiya 645 lenses on a 3rd-gen (6 micron), low noise Kodak MF CCD, since Phase One missed the boat on that tech and allowed Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica to snap it up.

Ray
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Anders_HK on September 28, 2012, 10:52:36 pm
Does Leica offer upgrade policy?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: FredBGG on September 29, 2012, 01:06:52 am
Leica:
Quote
We are roughly at 20%.[/b] So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.


"photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that."

Or maybe smarter and investing elsewhere... lighting, infrastructure, travelling to other markets,  locations etc.

Don't get me wrong... nothing wrong with buying a MFD if you love it, enjoy it and want to put your money there.

Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: David Eichler on September 29, 2012, 01:09:01 am
he should add:

". . . and our service department in the USA sucks, which leads many professionals to question our commitment to producing a professional tool."

Hah. It seems that has been the case for quite some time, well before digital. My recollection is that it was better to obtain warranty service from a local authorized service shop, if you were lucky enough to live where there was one. However, obtaining replacement parts, when needed, was still a hassle at times.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: JeffKohn on September 29, 2012, 01:47:25 am
Quote
We are roughly at 20%
Hmm, so I guess that means they sold 10 or 12 cameras last year....
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: LKaven on September 29, 2012, 03:16:19 am
Thanks for the info about X->Leica S Mount converters.

I think the thrust of my point still stands.  Putting lenses aside for the moment -- if Pentax is charging $8500 for the 645D, and Leica is charging $24-27k for the S2, then Leica only needs to sell a third of the number of bodies Pentax does in order to equal its market share. 
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: hasselbladfan on September 29, 2012, 04:24:03 am
In the interview, they did not mention Pentax.

So, I guess their ranking is

1. Hasselblad or Phase One
2. One of the above two
3. Leica
4. Pentax

Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Dick Roadnight on September 29, 2012, 05:25:00 am
Leica have never made a Medium format digital camera ¿on the nominal 6cm {120 film} definition, nor has anyone else? ¿so they have 20% of nothing?

If you miss it
Right now, Hasselblad H4/H5 and PhaseOne/Mamiya DF can't work with film.....    ::)
One very good reason for pseudo-MF systems not being able to use film is that they are not MF, and are not big enough to cover the 57mm format width of 120 film.

¿Do the "MFD" cameras with which you can use 120 film actually give you full format 645 ¿57 * ?mm?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 29, 2012, 05:42:35 am
Hi,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there are many different size sensors in MFD and most are smaller than full frame 645. The largest sensors with the least crop factors are the ones sitting in the high end backs.

If a vendor decides on a smaller sensor size it makes a lot of sense to build the rest of the system around it, optimizing the lenses for a smaller format. That also means that they give up some of the advantages of sensor size, such a system also won't work with film.

Best regards
Erik




Leica have never made a Medium format digital camera ¿on the nominal 6cm {120 film} definition, nor has anyone else? ¿so they have 20% of nothing?
One very good reason for pseudo-MF systems not being able to use film is that they are not MF, and are not big enough to cover the 57mm format width of 120 film.

¿Do the "MFD" cameras with which you can use 120 film actually give you full format 645 ¿57 * ?mm?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Dick Roadnight on September 29, 2012, 08:17:19 am
Hi,

Correct me if I'm right, but my understanding is that there are many different size sensors in MFD and most are smaller than full frame 645. The largest sensors with the least crop factors are the ones sitting in the high end backs.

If a vendor decides on a smaller sensor size it makes a lot of sense to build the rest of the system around it, optimizing the lenses for a smaller format. That also means that they give up some of the advantages of sensor size, such a system also won't work with film.

Best regards
Erik

...Yes, and decades ago, when Hasselblad made the Flexbody, there was enough image circle in their standard lenses for shift and tilt - now they make a zoom that does not cover the sensor of their "nearly FF 645" Flagship camera, and they make a **** (H)T/S adapter with optics in it, that will  not work with their 120 Macro. (The Zeiss 120 Macro with the Flexbody was a very useful tool.

Now their best option is to make a Large-format/technical camera compatible 1/800th electronic shutter that could integrate their cameras with standard Schneider etc. lenses.

Film backs are too mechanically complicated... would it be worth integrating film wind-on mechanics into a modern camera?
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: ondebanks on September 29, 2012, 08:22:31 am
¿Do the "MFD" cameras with which you can use 120 film actually give you full format 645 ¿57 * ?mm?

Yes, of course they do. They all started life as MF film cameras - 645 (Mamiya, Contax, Hasselblad H) or larger (Hasselblad V, Rollei, Mamiya RB/RZ etc.)

Ray
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Wim van Velzen on September 29, 2012, 02:10:51 pm
Hi,

Correct me if I'm right, but  (..)

Erik





 ;D
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: LKaven on September 29, 2012, 04:47:06 pm
Correct me if I'm right, but my understanding is that there are many different size sensors in MFD and most are smaller than full frame 645.

It seems worth remembering at this point that early MFDBs, like the Leaf Valeo 6 had 24x36mm sensors.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 29, 2012, 04:57:03 pm
Thanks! Fixed!

Erik
;D
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: paulmoorestudio on October 01, 2012, 09:26:47 am
the whole medium format issue is a dead end.. I really don't know why after 10 years we are still getting caught up with pre-digital nomenclature.  You can call the S what ever
pleases you but the proof is in the pudding and the files from it stand very nicely next to anything you are calling MF..The fact that Leica never made a film camera which took 120 roll film has nothing to do with anything except trollism.  Until someone comes out with a 3"x5" sensor and thereby creates a new threshold for "large sensor format" I don't see the point fussing over all these similar sized sensors..like people fretting over the difference between a d800 and a phase back.  The old film era terms small medium and large all were tied to the optics needed for each format..thus creating a different look for format.. an 80mm on a hassy 6x6 had a different feel than a 180mm on a 4x5 sinar.  It is a whole new ball game now and the sooner we drop the old world view the better, there must be a forum for those that want to discuss the good ole days of 220 film or wax poetically about dip and dunk.  Regarding the sales numbers, I highly doubt leica has ever made any such claim, afaik they never release sales numbers. Also I think Dr. K and company run a much improved company, just this week Leica NJ went out of their way to give me great service, they are now clearly setting the bar for the industry.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: gerald.d on October 01, 2012, 10:41:26 am
Until someone comes out with a 3"x5" sensor and thereby creates a new threshold for "large sensor format" I don't see the point fussing over all these similar sized sensors..
Err, really?

Surely sensor size (and ratio for that matter) is pretty important?

Sensor diagonal on the S2 is a 1.3 crop from that on "FF" MFDB, no? That's the same crop as a 1D4 from a 5D2.

And of course it's 3:2 rather than 4:3.

Now I know from personal experience when I owned both of those Canon cameras at the time, it made a huge difference. Especially if you wanted to shoot at the wide end.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Wim van Velzen on October 01, 2012, 12:05:04 pm
Don't look at it as a 'crop' but as a different format. Makes more sense as you can value a camera on its own merits.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Wayne Fox on October 01, 2012, 12:47:22 pm
Thanks for the info about X->Leica S Mount converters.

I think the thrust of my point still stands.  Putting lenses aside for the moment -- if Pentax is charging $8500 for the 645D, and Leica is charging $24-27k for the S2, then Leica only needs to sell a third of the number of bodies Pentax does in order to equal its market share. 
market share is based on total unit sales, not on dollar volume.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: BJL on October 01, 2012, 01:07:43 pm
Don't look at it as a 'crop' but as a different format. Makes more sense as you can value a camera on its own merits.
Quite right (full disclosure: my digital gear is all in 4/3" format with lenses designed for that format), but if we folowed your advice we would lose the irony of applauding 36x24mm for giving us "full frame" while denigrating the new, larger 45x30mm Leica S system as a "crop". Maybe Leica should market it as a "super-sized DSLR format" and avoid the anachronistic term "medium format".
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: gerald.d on October 01, 2012, 01:39:49 pm
Quite right (full disclosure: my digital gear is all in 4/3" format with lenses designed for that format), but if we folowed your advice we would lose the irony of applauding 36x24mm for giving us "full frame" while denigrating the new, larger 45x30mm Leica S system as a "crop". Maybe Leica should market it as a "super-sized DSLR format" and avoid the anachronistic term "medium format".

What's the shortest focal length lens (non fisheye) available on the Leica S2, and what field of view does it give? I believe it's the 24mm, yes?

The same focal length lens on a FF MFDB (they are available) would give a larger field of view.

You have to compare like for like from a system perspective.

So, the S2 is a crop when comparing it to other MF systems.

The shortest (decent quality) focal length lens on the Canons is 14mm. It works just fine on both the 5D and 1D, but the 1D crops the field of view.

It makes little sense to compare the Leica to that system, because there's no lens available for it that gives the equivalent field of view.

This matters at the wide end, like I said in my original post.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: paulmoorestudio on October 01, 2012, 02:24:24 pm
Err, really?

Surely sensor size (and ratio for that matter) is pretty important?

Sensor diagonal on the S2 is a 1.3 crop from that on "FF" MFDB, no? That's the same crop as a 1D4 from a 5D2.

And of course it's 3:2 rather than 4:3.

Now I know from personal experience when I owned both of those Canon cameras at the time, it made a huge difference. Especially if you wanted to shoot at the wide end.

a 39 x 56 sensor is the biggest ( dimensional ) we have right now.. unless I missed something in the last 12 months.. this is not that much bigger. than a current full frame dslr.. we can all do the math.. 
it's now where near the range of film sizes once used.. 35mm to 8x10.. the optics required for 35mm are vastly different from those of 8x10.. that is my point.. life is not all about resolution..resolution does not create a different qualitiy to the photograph like the change in focal length does... that was my point. I made up the 3x5" size to illustrate the point that in the digital world we are no where close to what we used to call large format,optically that is.. increased resolution obscures this.. I think a ms back out performs all I ever shot on 4x5. but it will never look like 4x5..
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Wim van Velzen on October 01, 2012, 02:30:20 pm
What's the shortest focal length lens (non fisheye) available on the Leica S2, and what field of view does it give? I believe it's the 24mm, yes?

The same focal length lens on a FF MFDB (they are available) would give a larger field of view.

You have to compare like for like from a system perspective.

So, the S2 is a crop when comparing it to other MF systems.

The shortest (decent quality) focal length lens on the Canons is 14mm. It works just fine on both the 5D and 1D, but the 1D crops the field of view.

It makes little sense to compare the Leica to that system, because there's no lens available for it that gives the equivalent field of view.

This matters at the wide end, like I said in my original post.

Huh, this doesn't make sense [ unless I don't understand you ]. Calling something a 'crop' does only make sense when a camera was designed for a larger (film) format but is now used for a smaller digital sensor.
Medium Format SLR in the film time never had the ultra wide lenses as the 35mm SLRs. That didn't make them cropped 35mm.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Petrus on October 01, 2012, 03:27:47 pm
the optics required for 35mm are vastly different from those of 8x10.. that is my point.. life is not all about resolution..resolution does not create a different qualitiy to the photograph like the change in focal length does.

Actually you can get EXACTLY the same projection ("image") with any sensor/film size with correct focal length lens and f-stop combination. That is basic descriptive geometry math only.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: paulmoorestudio on October 01, 2012, 04:02:22 pm
Actually you can get EXACTLY the same projection ("image") with any sensor/film size with correct focal length lens and f-stop combination. That is basic descriptive geometry math only.
you are right, and it is becoming easier to match as lens manufactures expand their capabilities. I was including large format technical movements as part of the look and difference between large and small format but this has nothing to do with the sensor size or focal lenth, I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: gerald.d on October 01, 2012, 04:53:34 pm
Huh, this doesn't make sense [ unless I don't understand you ]. Calling something a 'crop' does only make sense when a camera was designed for a larger (film) format but is now used for a smaller digital sensor.
Medium Format SLR in the film time never had the ultra wide lenses as the 35mm SLRs. That didn't make them cropped 35mm.

What I was trying to point out is that if you put the same focal length lens on an S2 (which, I'm sorry, does have a 1.3 crop MF sensor, whichever way anyone tries to spin it) as a "FF" MFDB, then the S2 will crop the field of view that you get from the FF back.

This means that - if wide angle is important to you - the Leica is limited compared to FF MFDB, because the focal length of the widest lens available for the Leica and a MFDB on a tech cam are pretty much the same (and that's ignoring the possibility of using a 17mm lens on an MFDB).

In the 35mm world, there are of course lenses with shorter focal lengths available - 14mm if you care about quality, 11 or 12mm if you're not that fussed. That's why it makes no sense to try to think of the Leica as some sort of "super sized 35mm". It's not. Because the systems simply aren't equivalent.

None of this is in any way meant as a criticism of the Leica camera, nor the wider system. It's simply a fact that for those people who are looking for very wide angles, it simply isn't a viable solution. There will of course be plenty of people for whom this simply isn't a concern.

Back to the point that was originally claimed, and that I questioned:

"Until someone comes out with a 3"x5" sensor and thereby creates a new threshold for "large sensor format" I don't see the point fussing over all these similar sized sensors.."

Well, fair enough. Maybe Paul doesn't. Maybe for what he shoots, the above described limitation simply isn't an issue. But many people would see the point fussing over the fact that the widest lens available for the two systems being compared was the same focal length, and yet one system had a sensor size 1.3x the size of the other.

For some, that kind of stuff is important.
Title: limited lens options does not mean "crop" -- else 645 is a crop vs 35mm!
Post by: BJL on October 01, 2012, 05:28:03 pm
What's the shortest focal length lens (non fisheye) available on the Leica S2, and what field of view does it give? I believe it's the 24mm, yes?

The same focal length lens on a FF MFDB (they are available) would give a larger field of view.

You have to compare like for like from a system perspective.
I agree that the Leica S lens system is, for now, rather limited in wide-angle options. Indeed it is rather limited overall -- hence the stop-gap measure of the adaptor for using H-mount Fujinon lenses. But a system having limited focal length options is nothing to do with cropping. For example, as far as I know, no 645 and 6x7 systems matches the extremes of rectilinear wide-angle coverage offered by the main 35mm format systems, or even the alleged "2x crop format" Four Thirds, but no one calls 645 or 6x7 "crop systems" on that account.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: paulmoorestudio on October 01, 2012, 07:10:09 pm

None of this is in any way meant as a criticism of the Leica camera, nor the wider system. It's simply a fact that for those people who are looking for very wide angles, it simply isn't a viable solution. There will of course be plenty of people for whom this simply isn't a concern.

Back to the point that was originally claimed, and that I questioned:

"Until someone comes out with a 3"x5" sensor and thereby creates a new threshold for "large sensor format" I don't see the point fussing over all these similar sized sensors.."

Well, fair enough. Maybe Paul doesn't. Maybe for what he shoots, the above described limitation simply isn't an issue. But many people would see the point fussing over the fact that the widest lens available for the two systems being compared was the same focal length, and yet one system had a sensor size 1.3x the size of the other.

For some, that kind of stuff is important.
[/quote]
I find it interesting that we have become very spoiled with the "small format".. extreme wide angle available on high resolution formats was never easy in the film era.  Maybe I am stuck in the last decade but it seems if you need an extreme wide angle there are a ton of cameras that will give you a damn good file.. at least for professional work.. I know that personal desires often exceed commercial necessity and it is human nature to want the cake and eat it too.  24mm on the S format is extremely wide for me..but I am a narrow view kind of guy.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: ndevlin on October 01, 2012, 09:40:08 pm
The newly announced Leica "S" 24mm is a 19mm equivalent. Few need go wider than that. Leica is not much stronger on the wide-end than any other system, especially considering the quality of the glass. Indeed, with the 30-90 zoom, their system will be pretty complete but-for a tele-zoom.

All that's missing is the lottery win to buy one!

- N.
Title: Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
Post by: Wim van Velzen on October 02, 2012, 09:32:55 am
Ah, I can see your point. My problem is that my wallet is cropped...