Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: NickyTaylorphoto on September 17, 2012, 03:32:00 pm

Title: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: NickyTaylorphoto on September 17, 2012, 03:32:00 pm
As the title suggests I am totally new to both this site and DMF (we all have to start somewhere)

I am after a little bit of advice from the community really before I go leaping in headfirst. I have been looking around the choices within DMF and was just wondering what the general word on the street as it is, was, with regards to first entry level and Price point of the starting ladder.

For a couple of months I have been watching the H4D-31 with a 80mm lens at the price point at $14,000. And now the new H5D on the way was thinking (hoping) there might be another price cut like the recent one (fingers crossed)

Currently I shoot with the 5D mark 2 and although I have a wide range of lenses I tend to stick around the 25mm-30mm length on my lenses for my subject, which is Large-scale landscape. I have been producing pieces as large as 6ft by 4ft and although maybe I don't plan on making larger sized prints I would like to see a little more detail which I hope to get if I upgrade my system.

What are the real alternatives within that price point of $14,000?

And do you think that now the H5D has been announced that it would be a good time to buy into the H4D model?

I have been a member of other sites but now hopefully can make this my new home. I thank you for reading and any help you might have for me.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on September 17, 2012, 05:07:02 pm
I would not recommend the H4D-31 as it has a small sensor 33.1 x 44.2mm. Not really a significant enough change and you are not using the full potential of the lenses.

Have you thought of stitching for more detail.

If your landscapes are static you can use a tilt shift lens with your Canon and almost double your sharpness
by taking two images. One with the lens shifted all the way to the right and one shifted all the way to the left.

You can also go even higher with a gigapan system.

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/how-to/shooting/power-to-the-background.html (http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/how-to/shooting/power-to-the-background.html)

Another option is to move to a Nikon d800E without the anti aliasing filter. 36MP and you can use the tilt shift stitching trick to.

You should also consider a used full frame MFD.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Dustbak on September 17, 2012, 05:15:04 pm
You might want to check out things like the H3D50 second hand. One of the great features the H4 has over the H3 is TF which is something that is of little use when using tripods.

The 31 is a great sensor but of older generation, it has microlenses and is cropped. This would not be my first choice for wide angle landscape work.

You can stitch with MFD too....
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: JV on September 17, 2012, 05:22:19 pm
For about $12.5K you can buy a certified H4D-40 from Hasselblad, 6 months warranty I believe.
It is the body only but 80mm lenses are plentiful on eBay (between $500 and $1k).
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: NickyTaylorphoto on September 18, 2012, 04:47:14 am
Wow I never really realized that the sensor size was cropped. So glad to have posted for some more expert advice.

In the past I have stitched images together sometimes to create pieces as large as 8ftx3ft (given its not with a tilt shift lens so the axis would be slightly different) I would just love to be able to produce the work at the same size but with more detail.

Am I in a situation where if its not broken don’t fix it? Will I not really see the benefit of spending $14000 for more detail or is it just not enough to really jump into this format?
 

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: design_freak on September 18, 2012, 05:18:59 am
For k14$ you can buy H3DII50  :)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Mr. Rib on September 18, 2012, 07:13:15 am
If I was to buy a MF camera now, I would settle for a used one like H3DII / H4 or sit out this generation and wait another year or two. The announcements which popped up this/last week are far from impressive.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ondebanks on September 18, 2012, 11:00:46 am

Am I in a situation where if its not broken don’t fix it? Will I not really see the benefit of spending $14000 for more detail or is it just not enough to really jump into this format?


You will see more detail than with the Canon - as much from the lack of an anti-aliasing filter as from the higher Mpix.

Even more important, in my experience of the 5DII and Kodak MFD sensors, is the nicer colour response.

I'm just wondering why you are looking only at Hasselblads when you say your subject is Large-scale landscape? The Pentax 645D (same Kodak sensor as the H4D-40) would seem like a better choice for that purpose, e.g. its weather sealing, and it costs a lot less. Its widest lens is 25mm, wider than Hasselblad's widest (28mm). One of Hasselblad's strengths is its leaf-shutter for flash work, but a focal plane shutter unit like the Pentax is all you need for landscape, and the faster speeds can come in handy sometimes.

Either that, or move away from an SLR body altogether - get a technical camera and a stand-alone digital back.

Ray

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on September 18, 2012, 11:59:21 am
Wow I never really realized that the sensor size was cropped. So glad to have posted for some more expert advice.

In the past I have stitched images together sometimes to create pieces as large as 8ftx3ft (given its not with a tilt shift lens so the axis would be slightly different) I would just love to be able to produce the work at the same size but with more detail.

Am I in a situation where if its not broken don’t fix it? Will I not really see the benefit of spending $14000 for more detail or is it just not enough to really jump into this format?
 



I think you would see about the same benefit in sharpness as you would see with a side grade to a Nikon D800E.
But most importantly you would get more dynamic range with the Nikon than you would with either the canon and the Hasselblad.
Dynamic range is very important in landscape photography. The far lighter camera will also make a big difference if you need to hike to a location.
Another thing to consider is that travel is essential to taking landscape photography to new levels. Going a long way with only one expensive camera is a bit of a gamble.
Much better with two D800 cameras. Same total weight and a back up is priceless when you catch a unique light, weather and location combination.

Here is a comparisson of the dynamic range of the D800 and the Hasselblad 50mp sensor.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8313/7978852007_ab3016ee9d_b.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/7978852043_01e92b6e93_b.jpg)

Switching to Nikon may be a better path for you.

I recently switch in part fro Canon to Nikon.

My canon gear sold very well. The lenses sold on ebay in a snap.
I did not have to add much to get the Nikon gear.

Also take a look at this:

Nikon d800 vs 80mp sensor in a test made by an IQ180 owner.

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on September 18, 2012, 01:14:09 pm
Having shot the D800E side by side with my AFi-ii 12, its really hard to believe those DXO charts.   Color of the D800E was not all that great and large areas of skin seemed flat compared to the MFDB.    The D800E captures significant detail and a good value considering the price.   But it misses on the color and also does not have the depth of the MFDB file.

One thing to keep in mind is the sensor size.   For landscape, maybe a smaller sensor is a good thing since getting everything inside the DOF will be easier?    Besides the color, that was that other thing that really stood out in our studio tests.  The d800e shooter shot at f/10 and I shot at f/16  and he had way more DOF with the same framing.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: lfeagan on September 18, 2012, 02:11:24 pm
If you want to produce large prints with a very high level of detail, stitching is a great way to go. I routinely produce 100+ MP images with little effort. Ok, more like 500 MP generally, but who's counting! ;D

I typically have well over 600 ppi available to me even when printing 4 feet wide. This is more than enough to allow a viewer to walk up close and explore the details of a particular feature.

Word of warning, if your computer does not have copious amounts of memory the stitching game can easily turn into the crying game while you wait.

The Gigapan system is a reasonable way to go. I use a setup from Really Right Stuff to achieve panning.

The Clauss Rodeon VR Head (http://www.dr-clauss.de/en/foto-studiotechnik-3/rodeon-vr-head-series/item/164-rodeon-vr-head-hd) is an excellent piece of equipment.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: NickyTaylorphoto on October 09, 2012, 07:16:10 am
Well Im still out there in the market place looking at cameras. MY canon lens 24-105 decided to die on me and canon repair quoted me 532Euros to fix it which is a joke considering its just the iris that has gone (as before) Which has pushed me even further into wanting/ needing to buy a quality new system.

All the rumors about the Canon 3d got me excited until they released a rumored price of $9,000 which for that price I would rather pay the same and get the name brand of quality.

There have been some very interesting points in this thread which Im going to really have to sit back and digest. Digital medium format is a totally new world for me so a lot of new terms and skills to learn WHICH IS GREAT. I think after redoing my math and selling my current canon I could pony up 10k cash for a new/secondhand system. Not going to get me into the big boys league but its a start.

If anyone has any more idea or knows of a great site to point me to apart from here to buy second hand then please feel free to send me a message.

Thank you to all the people who have put across there ideas.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: MrSmith on October 09, 2012, 07:44:14 am
you are using a poor lens for stitching, have you tried the 24 ts-e? the 45 is not so good but the 90 is also very good for stitching . i would either switch to the nikon or stick with canon and change your lenses to high quality primes or the new 24-70 2.8 which is meant to be a huge improvement over the old one (which i have but dont use for anything technical only people shots where corners dont matter)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2012, 08:37:23 am
I would start with stitching using the 5D2 and a good 50mm prime lens. That will take you very far already.

Next step up is a D800 with a Zeiss 50mm f2.0 and a good RRS manual pano head. That will cost you a bit more than 5,000 US$ and you will get much cleaner files, best in class DR (see the recent post of architecture photographer RainerV comparing Leaf backs to the D800E) and more detail per frame.

MF is an appealing option also, but be ready for some frustration with sub-optimal focus in low light situations, including dusk/dawn shots near infinity due the lack of usable live view. There are good chances that a live view focused DSLR image will contain on averge more actal details that the MF image in those challenging conditions, even with your 5DII.

If you opt for MF, I would look very seriously at the Pentax 645D. A true landscaper camera if there is one.

But the best reason to stay on 35mm might be the upcoming Zeiss upper lenses that may be in the same class as the Leica S glass when it becomes available next year if early reports are accurate.

Anyway, stitching can and should be used whatever the format if you are looking at the best possible level of detail.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 09, 2012, 09:52:59 am
Hi,

I don't really know how to interpret DxO color depth. My guess is that it is not about rendition of color. On the other hand, I think that both Jeff Schewe and Michael Reichmann say that you can tweak essentially any color from any camera.

What software are you using with AFi-ii 12?

Best regards
Erik



Having shot the D800E side by side with my AFi-ii 12, its really hard to believe those DXO charts.   Color of the D800E was not all that great and large areas of skin seemed flat compared to the MFDB.    The D800E captures significant detail and a good value considering the price.   But it misses on the color and also does not have the depth of the MFDB file.

One thing to keep in mind is the sensor size.   For landscape, maybe a smaller sensor is a good thing since getting everything inside the DOF will be easier?    Besides the color, that was that other thing that really stood out in our studio tests.  The d800e shooter shot at f/10 and I shot at f/16  and he had way more DOF with the same framing.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: hasselbladfan on October 09, 2012, 10:59:59 am

For a couple of months I have been watching the H4D-31 with a 80mm lens at the price point at $14,000. And now the new H5D on the way was thinking (hoping) there might be another price cut like the recent one (fingers crossed)

What are the real alternatives within that price point of $14,000?
 

There is indeed a new price cut of 1,000 usd on the H4D (but it is not announced - you get it when you ask). Moreover, I hear that some dealers offer a little better prices to liquidate heir stock (to be sure their stock is out before the H5D ships).

So, I would recommend you the H4D40 at usd 14,000-14,500. A cheap second hand 80mm with low use, you can find easily and it should not set you back more than 750-1,000 usd.

For 15-16k, you will have a top DMF, which will hold its value for a good time.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 09, 2012, 11:29:13 am
The advantage of MFD is a bigger sensor, as compared to a D800.  The croped sensors of the HXD-31 and 40, the Pentax 645D, Phase P30, Leaf Aptus 6, aren't that much bigger than 35mm FF. 

If I had $14k burning a hole in my pocket, and I needed a 30mm field of view on an MFD set up, I wouldn't get an H.  The wide lenses are very expensive, like an additional $2k used.  I would probably go for a Leaf Aptus 75s (Aptus II 7) and an RZ67 with the 50 ULD lens, and a Mamiya AFdII - Phase 645DF with 45mm.  The whole set up used could be had for $8k used.  The RZ is a pain to lug around and doesn't like water, ut the lenses are amazing and you can have tilt shift.  The mamiya AFd/Phase cameras are less than ideal, but I really like the lenses. 

Frankly, I think a D800e and some choice lenses would be the ideal solution.  While I think the new MFD full frame backs have some advantages over the D800e, the difference in image quality is at the margins.  The major difference is the camera and whether you enjoy working with MF.  Its a mixed bag.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 09, 2012, 12:30:46 pm
Well Im still out there in the market place looking at cameras. MY canon lens 24-105 decided to die on me and canon repair quoted me 532Euros to fix it which is a joke considering its just the iris that has gone (as before) Which has pushed me even further into wanting/ needing to buy a quality new system.

Reliability of MFD cameras does not come close to that of high end 35mm DSLR cameras.
Repair costs for even the smallest things are expensive with MFD.

If you are shooting landscapes you should consider stitching. At least try it before you go for heavier MFD cameras that really only offer a small advantage
over a D800E. A simple 4 frame stitch with a D800E would give you better quality than a single shot with a MFDB. You would also have better shadow detail too.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 09, 2012, 12:42:55 pm
Reliability of MFD cameras does not come close to that of high end 35mm DSLR cameras.
Repair costs for even the smallest things are expensive with MFD.

Can you site any data to back that up?   I've had the most problems with my Leica R camera bodies followed by Canon DSLR's and lenses.  Cross my fingers, but I never had a problem with any of Rollei camera bodies (though I have bought some used stuff on ebay that needed service on arrival).   It would be interesting to poll the user base here and find out how many failures per brand and make and whether they were DOA or failed during usage.  I know a lot of people that have had to send back DSLR lenses they bought new but had issues with them for example. I even had one canon lens that had a air bubble cast into the front element. Why that got past inspection and quality control is a mystery! Canon replaced immediately but still...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 09, 2012, 12:58:28 pm
Can you site any data to back that up?   I've had the most problems with my Leica R camera bodies followed by Canon DSLR's and lenses.  Cross my fingers, but I never had a problem with any of Rollei camera bodies (though I have bought some used stuff on ebay that needed service on arrival).   It would be interesting to poll the user base here and find out how many failures per brand and make and whether they were DOA or failed during usage.  I know a lot of people that have had to send back DSLR lenses they bought new but had issues with them for example. I even had one canon lens that had a air bubble cast into the front element. Why that got past inspection and quality control is a mystery! Canon replaced immediately but still...


There are plenty of postings about instability and hardware problems.

Take a look at this thread:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/36998-good-bye-medium-format-digital.html (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/36998-good-bye-medium-format-digital.html)

I also think it is quite relevant on this thread due to the OPs use for landscape that involves use outside,
in the woods, mountains and exposure to weather. There is absolutely no doubt that high end 35mm DSLR cameras are more rugged. On top of that there is the undisputable reliability that redundancy can give you. It is far more conceivable to carry two 35mm DSLR cameras than two MFD cameras and backs on a hike to a landscape shooting.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 09, 2012, 02:34:15 pm
I've posted this before, but here is the differences in crops in regards to formats.

(http://ishotit.com/formats2.jpg)

Keep in mind a P30, is not a 1.3 crop it is 1.24 where a almost FF mfd P45 is 1.14, so the differences are not near as pronounced as the sales literature suggests.

I know that this forum loves to post mtf graphs and micro sharpness, but those are just relevant when your bleeding your eyes on a computer screen.

To me the one reason to shoot medium format is the look of non aa filtered CCD's.  They just look different than cmos and my studio and I have worked thousands of images from most makers of  cmos cameras (Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, RED,) and CCD non AA filtered cameras (leica, Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad, Kodak and Fuji) and there is just a different look to the ccd cameras.

I won't say 3dish, or any of that and I'm not comparing micro detail but I believe the ability to work a file deep with MFD is easier than a cmos file and produces an overall different look than a dslr.

As far as cameras I'd use what camera you feel comfortable with, but I would never buy without testing in some form, because everybody has a different perspective on cameras, files, lenses.

I'd test whether it was a $2,500 dslr or a $30,000 medium format system.  It's not just the costs, it's the years of living with it that matters.

I'd also test and shoot something relevant.  No alleys, brick walls, or leafs in the backyard, but load up, go out and shoot something pretty.  Then you can work the files in post and find the system that's right for you.

You will hear a huge volume of buzz around the Nikon D800 and I'm sure it's a capable camera.  You will also here a lot of people say it's not the camera, it's the artist.

Both are true, but the camera really does matter and it always has.   Nobody spends more time with their eye on a viewfinder than a movie first operator or DP and though they rarely own cameras, usually rent, they have their favorites and will go to almost any length to use them.

It's not unheard of to hear a dp absorb part or all of a cinema camera and lens package costs into their fees, just too shoot with the camera they are comfortable with.

It's the same for stills and the one plus for medium format is (at least for me) is I continue on with the same equipment for a long time.  My dslrs, maybe 2 or 3 years, my mfd backs, easily 3 times that.

As far as reliability, my Phase backs have never had a repair and I've worked them damn hard.  My Contax(s) just one repair where some assistant put a thumb through a shutter curtain. 

My Canons and Nikons have all gone in for shutter failure, or focus adjustments.

For weight, I don't look at the camera, I look at the case and the difference between my Canon and Contax/Phase case is less than a pound.

Still, the only answer is test and decide for yourself. 

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 09, 2012, 04:54:45 pm
Cooter,

Check out the D800.  It is really different than most CMOS cameras, at least to my eyes.  Very easy to get a scanned Portra look.  It is the first CMOS camera that compares, to me anyway, favorably to film.  Not just "good enough", "close enough".  But in many ways "better than."  I've never been able to get a certain look from a CMOS camera, its a look that I could only get from a Mamiya 7 and Portra, and even then, the scans were with a CCD scanner.  The D800e gets that look, and more.  The files are aren't brittle like, say the Leica CCD files (which I do love).  They have depth in the shadows.  As a camera its like an F4 or F5.  Finder could have higher magnification but is bright enough.  The focusing screen is horrid, can't tell what is and isn't in focus with fast lenses.  Luckily the AF is very fast and accurate.  I think you would dig it.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 09, 2012, 04:57:43 pm
Notably these guys shoot DMF and speak of experience, the others do not (if I missed someone please raise hand);

Having shot the D800E side by side with my AFi-ii 12, its really hard to believe those DXO charts.   Color of the D800E was not all that great and large areas of skin seemed flat compared to the MFDB.    The D800E captures significant detail and a good value considering the price.   But it misses on the color and also does not have the depth of the MFDB file.

One thing to keep in mind is the sensor size.   For landscape, maybe a smaller sensor is a good thing since getting everything inside the DOF will be easier?    Besides the color, that was that other thing that really stood out in our studio tests.  The d800e shooter shot at f/10 and I shot at f/16  and he had way more DOF with the same framing.

I've posted this before, but here is the differences in crops in regards to formats.

(http://ishotit.com/formats2.jpg)

Keep in mind a P30, is not a 1.3 crop it is 1.24 where a almost FF mfd P45 is 1.14, so the differences are not near as pronounced as the sales literature suggests.

I know that this forum loves to post mtf graphs and micro sharpness, but those are just relevant when your bleeding your eyes on a computer screen.

To me the one reason to shoot medium format is the look of non aa filtered CCD's.  They just look different than cmos and my studio and I have worked thousands of images from most makers of  cmos cameras (Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, RED,) and CCD non AA filtered cameras (leica, Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad, Kodak and Fuji) and there is just a different look to the ccd cameras.

I won't say 3dish, or any of that and I'm not comparing micro detail but I believe the ability to work a file deep with MFD is easier than a cmos file and produces an overall different look than a dslr.

As far as cameras I'd use what camera you feel comfortable with, but I would never buy without testing in some form, because everybody has a different perspective on cameras, files, lenses.

I'd test whether it was a $2,500 dslr or a $30,000 medium format system.  It's not just the costs, it's the years of living with it that matters.

I'd also test and shoot something relevant.  No alleys, brick walls, or leafs in the backyard, but load up, go out and shoot something pretty.  Then you can work the files in post and find the system that's right for you.

You will hear a huge volume of buzz around the Nikon D800 and I'm sure it's a capable camera.  You will also here a lot of people say it's not the camera, it's the artist.

Both are true, but the camera really does matter and it always has.   Nobody spends more time with their eye on a viewfinder than a movie first operator or DP and though they rarely own cameras, usually rent, they have their favorites and will go to almost any length to use them.

It's not unheard of to hear a dp absorb part or all of a cinema camera and lens package costs into their fees, just too shoot with the camera they are comfortable with.

It's the same for stills and the one plus for medium format is (at least for me) is I continue on with the same equipment for a long time.  My dslrs, maybe 2 or 3 years, my mfd backs, easily 3 times that.

As far as reliability, my Phase backs have never had a repair and I've worked them damn hard.  My Contax(s) just one repair where some assistant put a thumb through a shutter curtain.  

My Canons and Nikons have all gone in for shutter failure, or focus adjustments.

For weight, I don't look at the camera, I look at the case and the difference between my Canon and Contax/Phase case is less than a pound.

Still, the only answer is test and decide for yourself.  

IMO

BC

There is indeed a new price cut of 1,000 usd on the H4D (but it is not announced - you get it when you ask). Moreover, I hear that some dealers offer a little better prices to liquidate heir stock (to be sure their stock is out before the H5D ships).

So, I would recommend you the H4D40 at usd 14,000-14,500. A cheap second hand 80mm with low use, you can find easily and it should not set you back more than 750-1,000 usd.

For 15-16k, you will have a top DMF, which will hold its value for a good time.


Do be tad cautious of some of other posts that you read, because with each new dslr with more pixels there are folks that tad seem to believe it is like a miracle machine, and some select others such as Fred seem to be on a rampage against all of medium format digital industry (while some of us are waiting for him to yet post a single good image he shot with his medium format back...).

Reliability of MFD cameras does not come close to that of high end 35mm DSLR cameras.
Repair costs for even the smallest things are expensive with MFD.

If you are shooting landscapes you should consider stitching. At least try it before you go for heavier MFD cameras that really only offer a small advantage
over a D800E. A simple 4 frame stitch with a D800E would give you better quality than a single shot with a MFDB. You would also have better shadow detail too.

Above is plain nonsense. I have not had one camera, back or lens break down over the past five years I have shot medium format digital. They are made for heavy and extensive professional use. I am on my third medium format back, in part because I first went with faulty designed ZD which I kept only for few months due to a problem related to its design. Since then I have shot Leaf and they are as durable as Phase One. I do not know about Hasselblad, they may also be same durable, I simply do not know. I am on my second Leaf because I knew I could trust their products for durability and to deliver top notch image quality which I cannot get with DSLR.

There is a significant difference and advantage in the raw files compared to dslrs. The files can be pushed more and do give a superior character. Sure, dslrs such as D800E have improved... and so have medium format sensors, thus both have if you look at newer generations.

The 44x33mm sensors can actually be bargains, yet nevertheless give unique character images compared to dslr. It is also the way you work an image. Medium format slows you down some, which improves your images because you think more before you press the shutter. When I went with Leaf I first choose the 28MP 44x33mm sensor because it was more cost effective than the 22MP 48x36mm sensor, and because it was one generation newer sensor, thus with slight improvements in ISO and noise performance. I was very pleased with that back indeed. Price is important when choosing, and I would recommend you to compare Hassy vs. Leaf and Phase One. The other side is support. Do purchase from a reputable agent that will back you, then you have support and also some warranty. My Leaf agent in Hong Kong is superb and even answer phone in evenings and weekends... and help out even when outside of warranty. Any problem, even if something I am missing on camera! Nope, I did not purchase my cameras from them, only my Leaf backs, but... they know by giving this support chances are I will upgrade in future because in part of their support, but also because Leaf products are stellar in durability and image quality. I did upgrade last year, at free choice, not by them marketing, which is loads of different from all marketing of dslrs, including all articles you read on internet of dslrs...

Since 1 year I shoot 80MP Leaf AFi-II 12 with a 645 sized sensor on a Rolleiflex Hy6 camera. The Hy6 camera is arguably the best camera for medium format digital and the lenses are likewise reputed as best. It can be worth checking out. Else, as mentioned in above the choice is individual. And no... stitching dslr frames does not yield same image quality as medium format digital... there is much more than pixels. Best is to like said in above to make a demo, have them explain the differences to what you are used to shooting and for you to inspect it yourself, and shoot actual subjects and even PM folks in these forums to send you some sample raw files from their actual shooting. Then you will get to work on a file shot by someone who is used to handling the camera and back.

Leaf files are known for a more film like character, but are else on pair in image quality with Phase One backs (or is it the other way around??). Though I personally have a liking to Dalsa sensors that I find to have better characters. All Leaf backs have Dalsa sensors. Newer Phase One backs have Dalsa. I also believe some Hassy may use Dalsa, but I am not sure. I use Capture One Pro for processing, and it is the best for Leaf and Phase One files since Phase One owns also Leaf, and since both Phase One and Leaf engineers are involved in work for Capture One. For Adobe they are not...

Personally, I would not think of trading medium format digital for dslr, no way. I much enjoy my current tool because it helps me get better images and better image quality, but that is all it is; tool. Each of us need to investigate what works for us, and decide.

I shoot both landscape and people; andersloof.com. I actually like the larger sensor for that too, because it enables to control out of focus far better, thus brings yet another character. And the way to shoot with a Hy6 with its 6x6cm focus screen in wist level finder clearly beats dslr but also other medium format digital offerings. :).

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2012, 05:45:50 pm
And no... stitching dslr frames does not yield same image quality as medium format digital... there is much more than pixels.

Stitching is a widely used shooting technique that can be used with any camera.

The stitched image will have a much higher image quality than a single frame shot with the same equipment.

Cylindrical stitching does 4 key things:
- it increases the pixel count dramatically and detail capture accordingly,
- it virtually increases the size of the capturing device, think of 8x10 vs MF. Accordingly, you shoot with a longer lens (my normal pano lens is a 100mm) and reduces DoF accordingly which results in a different look,
- it makes any aspect ratio possible without the need to crop and therefore lose image quality,
- it only uses the central part of the image circle in each sub-frame, which results in a stitched image that is perfect corner to corner. This is critical for landscape.

Now regarding the comparison btwn a single frame MF vs stitched DSLR. There are a few things to say:
- there is a huge difference in image quality among DSLRs, the D800E is far ahead of all the others, so it doesn't mean much to speak about a generic category called DSLR. The same applies to MF so I suggest we speak about the latest generation on both sides,
- speaking about pixel quality, the D800 is in the same ballpark as recent backs. Some, like RainerV shooting architecture (by far the most demanding discipline in terms of DR) prefer the DR of the D800, some like you (who have not used the D800 it seems) or Eric believe that the back is superior. Measures say the D800 wins,
- now, we don't make prints with single pixels. There is an obvious value in terms of tonal quality and image smoothness when you have more pixels with a larger (virtual or not) sensor. That is the reason why a single MF is superior to a single 35mm frame, but stitching takes that an order of magnitude further.

So in the end, allow me to strongly disagree with the statment you wrote above, stitched D800 images are way better than single MF frames, and the gap is very large.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 09, 2012, 05:50:22 pm
Medium format slows you down some, which improves your images because you think more before you press the shutter.
This "slowing down" thing is beyond me. Shooting with a small or large or whatever camera makes no difference with regard to my "mental work".
Being familiar with the gear does improve things… IMO… simply as you don't have to think about the technique and therefore you'll be in a better flow.
Likewise I feel it's also not totally unimportant that you "like" the gear you use in some way. If not, the "damn thing" will annoy you … which certainly won't help to concentrate on the actual image…

Shooting with my small Sony RX100 slows me down… because it's small and somewhat cumbersome to operate (manually). In contrast shooting with my Contax with a DB is super easy and… if you want so… super fast. Simply as the camera handles much, much better. It has only few buttons and everything is in its proper place... and at the same time nothing is missing.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 09, 2012, 07:06:40 pm
So in the end, allow me to strongly disagree with the statment you wrote above, stitched D800 images are way better than single MF frames, and the gap is very large.
Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard that is a fairly bold claim there...would you be able to show us an ~80MP stitched image from your camera (3 verticals roughly?) and demonstrate how it is "way better" than a single 80MP image?

Thanks!
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2012, 07:40:44 pm
Bernard that is a fairly bold claim there...would you be able to show us an ~80MP stitched image from your camera (3 verticals roughly?) and demonstrate how it is "way better" than a single 80MP image?

Yaya,

I have never claimed that the quality would be the same at equal pixel count, my point is precisely that there is zero reason to stick to a meager 80 mp when stitching with a D800.

I agree that, even if the pixels were of the same quality, you lose a small something as the result of the stitching computations at pixel sharpness level (technique is important here), but going to an even slightly higher pixel count more than compensates for that.

You will agree with me that 80mp is meager when the next generation of 140mp backs will be released, I am sure.  ;)

Most of my stitches are 150-300 megapixel today already, and these unique shooting opportunities will have been captured with that resolution without having to wait for 3 more generation of backs. It can of course be debated whether so much detail is needed, but there is no question that - if ultimate image quality is your goal - then stitching is the way to go.

You could of course stitch with the back and get to even higher virtual sensor sizes and resolutions. Stitching can be used with any camera really.

This being said, you will see some advantage even at equal pixel count in terms of image quality in the corners, and aspect ratio unless you always shoot 4:3 of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 09, 2012, 07:59:25 pm
Bernard that is a fairly bold claim there...would you be able to show us an ~80MP stitched image from your camera (3 verticals roughly?) and demonstrate how it is "way better" than a single 80MP image?

Thanks!

A three frame stitch taken with a D800 on a Cambo X2-PRO would be about the same.

A three frame stitch shot with a Nikon lens moving the camera would not be the same as this type of stitching requires corrections in post.

For a stitch with A D800 and Nikon (or other 3rd party Nikon lenses) should be done with a higher sampling shooting more shots. The result will be far superior
to an MF back if the prints are large enough to see the difference.

However there are landscape shots with a lot of movement that require a single shot if you want to freeze motion. That is where the Credo and IQ backs have an edge, though it is not as large as many would think.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html)

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2012, 08:31:03 pm
However there are landscape shots with a lot of movement that require a single shot if you want to freeze motion. That is where the Credo and IQ backs have an edge, though it is not as large as many would think.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html)

Yes, there are such scenes-
- but they are few, some types of water scenes can be a problem, many are not a problem,
- I wonder whether detail is that important in such scenes in the first place that the difference btwn 36 and 80 mp really make a difference. When things move, DSLR often have the upper hand thanks to their ability to maintain accurate focus anyway.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 09, 2012, 09:08:32 pm
my point is precisely that there is zero reason to stick to a meager 80 mp when stitching with a D800.

Stitching may work for some landscape or other situations but obviously quite a lot of photo work can only be captured with a single frame.  It's not a valid argument for everyone to suggest stitching as a solution.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 09, 2012, 09:15:58 pm
For a stitch with A D800 and Nikon (or other 3rd party Nikon lenses) should be done with a higher sampling shooting more shots. The result will be far superior
to an MF back if the prints are large enough to see the difference.

Is it fair to compare a stitched D800 shot to a single frame of the IQ180?  Of course one can also stitch with the 80mp digital backs (or iPhones) so what's the point here?
And from my experience of shooting both, I think the 80mp is better but not just because of increased detail. Better feel of depth, tonality,  and better color too.    Whether this is worth the big price difference or not is up to the individual.   
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2012, 09:32:00 pm
Stitching may work for some landscape or other situations but obviously quite a lot of photo work can only be captured with a single frame.  It's not a valid argument for everyone to suggest stitching as a solution.

My answer was made in the context of this thread where the OP described his application as "large landscapes".

I have never said that stitching could be a solution to all types of shooting.

Is it fair to compare a stitched D800 shot to a single frame of the IQ180?  Of course one can also stitch with the 80mp digital backs (or iPhones) so what's the point here?
And from my experience of shooting both, I think the 80mp is better but not just because of increased detail. Better feel of depth, tonality,  and better color too.    Whether this is worth the big price difference or not is up to the individual.  

Yes, it is fair. Only the application matters. The goal is to find the best suited tool. It is not because the OP posted his question in a MF forum that MF has to be the best answer for his needs.

I am not interested in a generic discussion about MFDB vs DSLR, we had too many of these already. I am just trying to help the OP understand the options he can choose from.

These are just 2 different means to achieve high levels of image quality. Except that the D800 based stitching solution is nearly 10 times cheaper. When I pay the bill I am interested in this "point".

At last, the qualities you refer to as depth, tonality are the result of the higher resolution down sampled to a given output size. My view is that you get even better depth and tones with a 300 mp stitch.

Colors is a different question, one that seems to belong to realm of preference more than anything else.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 09, 2012, 09:48:43 pm
Bernard,
Well you are right about one thing. Too much time wasted on this type of discussion! I'm out!
Eric
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: JV on October 09, 2012, 10:02:35 pm
I am not interested in a generic discussion about MFDB vs DSLR, we had too many of these already.

+1
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 10, 2012, 12:16:49 am
A three frame stitch taken with a D800 on a Cambo X2-PRO would be about the same.

A three frame stitch shot with a Nikon lens moving the camera would not be the same as this type of stitching requires corrections in post.

For a stitch with A D800 and Nikon (or other 3rd party Nikon lenses) should be done with a higher sampling shooting more shots. The result will be far superior
to an MF back if the prints are large enough to see the difference.

However there are landscape shots with a lot of movement that require a single shot if you want to freeze motion. That is where the Credo and IQ backs have an edge, though it is not as large as many would think.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html)



Since you're answering for Bernard now, perhaps YOU can show us a stitched image from your camera (I believe you have mentioned somewhere that you own one?) and demonstrate its superiority to an MF image?
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 10, 2012, 12:32:24 am
Since you're answering for Bernard now, perhaps YOU can show us a stitched image from your camera (I believe you have mentioned somewhere that you own one?) and demonstrate its superiority to an MF image?

Now now Yaya calm down and please spare us your sarcasm.

First of all I'm not answering for Bernard, I'm sure he can do so for himself.

That said I'd like to go on record for saying that while a stitch taken with a D800 would be higher quality than a single frame IQ180 or Credo 80, I'm sure a stitch with a MF camera would be just
as spectacular. The virtual lenses and capture areas that can be created rival even 8x10.

Here is a good example of the quality that is possible with stitching

http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/gigapixel.htm (http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/gigapixel.htm)

and this is an interesting and different use of stitching:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110492963926129353210/albums/5642588167921700753 (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110492963926129353210/albums/5642588167921700753)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 10, 2012, 12:57:47 am

a stitch taken with a D800 would be higher quality than a single frame IQ180 or Credo 80

Care to show us how and why?
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 10, 2012, 01:09:35 am
Care to show us how and why?

Look at the two links in my previous post.

One demonstrates higher resolution and detail, the other illustrates bokeh not achievable in a single MFD exposure and current MFD manufacturers lenses.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 01:19:42 am
First of all I'm not answering for Bernard, I'm sure he can do so for himself.

I already did in fact...

Marc may not be in Japan now, otherwise we could have done a very easy comparison to prove the obvious for those doubting that a 200+ mp stitch from a D800 is superior to a single IQ180 image. A 3x4=12 images stitch should do.

Yair, if you know of any owner in Tokyo interested in doing such tests please PM me. I'd be glad to do it. I should have time this Sunday early AM. I propose to meet in Ueno, there are some nice subjects in the area.

I am willing also to do the print tests using my Epson 9900 that same day, I'll pay for paper and ink. We should do 42x56 inch prints to respect the 4:3 aspect ratio of the IQ180. I'll auction the set on eBay and donate the proceedings to an NGO acting for the protection of MFDBs.  ;D

Please let me know if you have any recommendation to make the match up fair, I wouldn't want to be accused of bias after the fact.  ;)

That said I'd like to go on record for saying that while a stitch taken with a D800 would be higher quality than a single frame IQ180 or Credo 80, I'm sure a stitch with a MF camera would be just as spectacular. The virtual lenses and capture areas that can be created rival even 8x10.

Of course, I must have written this 3 times in this thread already.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 10, 2012, 05:01:17 am
I swear if this was a e-magaizne on cars, somebody would record the sound of a toyota door slamming next to a BMW swearing the toyota was quieter.  There are buyers of both brands and some people even buy both, though I bet the drive the bmw more.

I know I have a bunch of 35mm digitals, some medium format backs and cameras, digital video and digital cinema cameras and . . . actually  . . . well probably, way too many cameras, but we use them all and usually for different reasons.

In the new normal it seems we work very robust days and use about all of our equipment, every project.

Anyway, TMark.  I will probably eventually get someone to ship me a D800E and look at it but right now I'm pretty well set on cameras, then again I don't disbelieve that it's a capable camera.  I know with my Nikons, the D700 and the D3, both are very difficult to manage skin tones and colors.

We can do it, but under lower iso, they're an issue, though maybe the D800 is better.

I know the original poster is talking about landscapes and I'm really not the guy to answer that question.  All I can suggest again is to test them, regardless of price and gasp, gasp regardless of ultimate image quality, whatever that is.

I do know if I did do landscapes and REALLY and truly needed 80 mpx I'd just buy an 80 mpx back and camera because I like things in one shot, but hey, that's just me.  Also I don't really care if a lens is sharp edge to edge because I very rarely need edge sharpness, think it's pretty when a lens has falloff and some softness to the corners.  In fact some of the prettiest work we've ever done and a style that continues to get us work is using the Contax with that old Boris Hartiblie tilt shift and I can tell you nothing is really sharp on that lens but the very center.

Buying clients like the look because I think it looks less digital, less clack clack, more click manually focus, think about it, click.

Now, those are the things I know, but what i think is with all these very heated discussions three things are left out.

1.  Why do you have to have any one camera?  It's quite reasonable to have multiple formats.  I do, I use them, they're paid for, they make me money and shoot the way I want.

2.  There is nothing wrong with using a camera that is not as efficient as something that costs less, or more.  I love the Contax(s) I use and love the analog feel.  I spend a lot of time with my eye on a viewfinder and my eye on a computer screen and I like the viewfinder a lot more than a computer screen, so cameras that feel less computer and more camera is fine by me.

3.  We all know we're in this weird world wide economic stagnation and everybody is looking for the less expensive alternative.  Clients, suppliers, everyone, but I'm fortunate that I own my own equipment and can shoot to my standards not just what the budget dictates.  I have to admit I appreciate that Phase (and I guess all medium format companies) have continued to update their software so my cameras are more viable today than they were when I bought them.   Speaking of economics, just add up buying a $3,000 camera you'll use for two years or a $15,000 camera you'll use for 7 years and the numbers are close to a wash and even if they weren't wouldn't you rather have something that feels special, a device that becomes part of you and your work?

4.  (I know I said 3).  Use what you want to use, to shoot what you want to shoot.  I have no doubt that they people that stitch like working that way.  I also know some photographers love the latest model of everything.  There is nothing wrong with either direction, but to try to get back to the original poster, really test before you buy.  Any good dealer will either rent or or rent discounted if you buy almost any camera and even if you have to fly to do it, you'll be much happier to know that what you bought fits for your style of work, not you fitting to it.

5,  (yea yea, I know I said 3 but I'm on a roll).  

The last few years I've grown tired of hearing about the "new normal" of only delivering what is required and holding things to a low bar rather than higher.  

I also find it somewhat absurd that people that want higher salaries, higher rates and fees take exception to a camera maker that wants decent profits.  Actually I find it strange that living in a world economy profit has become a word said in hushed tones.

Sure, $30,000 to $50,000 is very high for a camera (any camera) but if you look, shop, test and maybe just wait you can find a deal and there are deals out there from reputable dealers of all makes, but the OP's desire to buy an H4 makes sense to me.  He wants to buy one step from the latest and enjoy a camera, but instead of anybody with an H4d making a post, everyone says buy a Nikon.  

Maybe the Nikon is the new normal and everyone should buy one, maybe we all should wear grey jumpsuits and ride in push carts, but I doubt if the world is going to go that way.

Whether you shoot for pleasure or business, (hopefully both), there is no joy in limiting yourself, less joy in just joining the crowd.  

Does a camera make you better . . . I don't know, maybe-maybe not, but does a camera you like using make you feel better about what your shooting and delivering, whether it goes on the living room wall or in Times Square?    Hell yes.


IMO

BC

P.S.  2 years ago, my business partner/producer wife wanted a Leica.  She didn't like focusing my M-8, so we went to a dealer and tried everything.  She bought a Leica X-1.  Were there better cameras, I dunno, maybe. Were there better prices . . . sure, but that doesn't matter because she likes it, it makes her feel good, she takes photos with it and will use it for years.  

It makes her happy.  Happy is good.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Dustbak on October 10, 2012, 05:11:37 am
does a camera you like using make you feel better about what your shooting and delivering, either on the living room wall or in Times Square?    Hell yes.
IMO

BC

For me this says it all... thank you.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 10, 2012, 06:24:06 am
I already did in fact...

we could have done a very easy comparison to prove the obvious for those doubting that a 200+ mp stitch from a D800 is superior to a single IQ180 image. A 3x4=12 images stitch should do.

Why would you want to compare a 200MP 12-frame stitch to an 80MP single shot? I mean what will you be comparing? The workflow? The resolution? The colour?
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 07:45:25 am
Why would you want to compare a 200MP 12-frame stitch to an 80MP single shot? I mean what will you be comparing? The workflow? The resolution? The colour?

The image quality of the resulting image? In particular the detail? In other words assess the ability of a 12 images stitch to meet the needs of the OP regarding the capture of grand landscape with more details better than a single shot from a 80mp back?

Or is your view that it is fundamentally impossible to compare 2 photographs of a given scene?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 10, 2012, 07:49:20 am
Here's the thing.

If we're going to have to use stitched images from a DSLR to compare to a single image from MFDB, why limit the MFDB to a single image?

If stitching is an option for the DSLR, then it is also an option for the MFDB.

77 image stitch with an IQ180, Mamiya 200/2.8 + 2x teleconverter.

08.ae/panos/Burj77/Burj77.html

I can shoot the same image with an IQ180 using less than half the number of shots it would take even with a D800, for the same output resolution.

Which means I can shoot it in less than half the time.

Which, as I intend to demonstrate in a few weeks time, can mean the difference between getting the shot, or not.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 07:51:27 am
Here's the thing.

If we're going to have to use stitched images from a DSLR to compare to a single image from MFDB, why limit the MFDB to a single image?

If stitching is an option for the DSLR, then it is also an option for the MFDB.

77 image stitch with an IQ180, Mamiya 200/2.8 + 2x teleconverter.

08.ae/panos/Burj77/Burj77.html

I can shoot the same image with an IQ180 using less than half the number of shots it would take even with a D800, for the same output resolution.

Which means I can shoot it on less than half the time.

Which, as I intend to demonstrated in a few weeks time, can mean the difference between getting the shot, or not.

Yes, you can of course do that.

The question is why spend 50,000 US$ on a back + lens if stitching with the D800E enables you to reach the required resolution at 1/10 the cost?  ;)

45,000 US$ is a significant amount of money for some people, it probably is for 99,9% of photographers in fact.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 10, 2012, 07:53:37 am
Because you can't buy time.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 08:00:37 am
Because you can't buy time.

Again, you are assuming that spending 45,000 US$ more is possible, that spending or not spending that amount is a choice anyone can make. It simply is not the case.

Besides, how many frames a day do you shoot when you do grand landscape? 5 or 10?

Shooting a 12 frame pano takes at most 1 extra minute in the field compared to a single frame on a back. How many extra .% does that represent compared to all the other things you need to do when shooting landscape?

It is also negligible in post processing time, 10 clicks in AutoPano, 5 minutes computation time. That is nitch compared to the time needed to complete a final image for printing.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 10, 2012, 08:09:10 am
Most I've done for a single pano was around 4,500.

That was with a DSLR. Wish I'd had the IQ180 then :)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Wim van Velzen on October 10, 2012, 08:21:14 am
Landscape photographs including the sea are not easily done while stitching. Even when you shoot in the cycle of the tidal waves, things never look quite right.

That said, I do a lot of stitching with my 22MP back and Rollei camera. I would rather have a 28mm lens for it though.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 10, 2012, 08:42:35 am
The image quality of the resulting image? In particular the detail? In other words assess the ability of a 12 images stitch to meet the needs of the OP regarding the capture of grand landscape with more details better than a single shot from a 80mp back?

Or is your view that it is fundamentally impossible to compare 2 photographs of a given scene?

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course nothing is impossible nowadays but I was curious because visualising, composing and taking a 1 shot image is a different experience to creating a stitched image.

I do quite a bit of stitching myself (on Nikon, iPhone, Techcams and MFSLRs so I know what it takes to make a good image (quality and aesthetics) and IMO a single frame image is a more rewarding experience

If you use a back on a tech camera you can use a GG and at least do the framing VISUALLY with little need for cropping...can't do that with an SLR...

If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

If that's your thing then more power to you but I don't think that you're in the majority...

No offence intended, seriously!

Yair
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ctz on October 10, 2012, 09:09:02 am
Landscape photographs including the sea are not easily done while stitching.

Or a windy day in the weeds.


Of course nothing is impossible nowadays but I was curious because visualising, composing and taking a 1 shot image is a different experience to creating a stitched image.

good point.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 10, 2012, 09:22:14 am
Michael Wolf did these with a Canon Rebel stitched.  The prints are astounding. 

http://www.photomichaelwolf.com/transparent_city/index.html

This is just to point out that its not the tool.  Yes, stitched 80mp would be even more astounding.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 09:52:22 am
If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

Here we go again, all the DSLRs are the same?

There is no difference btwn a D5100 pixels and D800 pixels?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 10, 2012, 12:28:43 pm
Here we go again


 :D 
That's so funny coming from you, Bernard!  "stitch, stitch, stitch.... "


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 10, 2012, 01:55:30 pm
Hi,

I got the impression the original poster would not spend more than 14000$US or so. Si I guess the IQ180 is not an option.

More affordable backs often come with a crop factor. So, the potential buyer must consider his/her needs regarding wide angles.

MF Digital is said to have many magical properties, like CCDs offering better color than CMOS. In real life life both CCDs and CMOS are monochrome devices, with color added by the CGA (Color Grid Array) and the software. It is well possible that certain vendors have better CGAs. It is conceivable that some CGAs would put priority on good high ISO performance and others on good color separation. On the other hand, real world imaging experts like Jeff Schewe and Michael Reichmann say that you can achieve essentially any color rendition in the raw converter. In his latest book Jeff Schewe illustrates that a properly processed image from an IPhone 4S is virtually indistinguishable from a P65+ at small print sizes.

Now, I don't think there is anything magical with MF. A larger sensor has always advantages, we have seen this with film and we see this with digital. A larger sensor can collect more photons. A larger sensor is also much less demanding of a lens. On the other hand, larger formats need to be stopped down more.This was so in the film times and it is so now.

An excellent study was done by Lars Kjellberg in film days: http://www.photodo.com/topic_138.html

I also would say that Nikon has shaken up the photo world a little with the D800/D800E. That camera has a lot to offer:

- Very high resolution
- Perfect focusing when using live view
- Best DR at the pixel level of any camera on earth
- Access to a wide variety of excellent lenses from Nikon and Zeiss
- Option to use Leica R lenses

These factor make the D800/D800E into an excellent picture maker. According to at least one test by Lloyd Chambers the D800 actually outperforms the Leica S2.

For the price of a digital back you can probably build a whole system of a Nikon D800E and a few of Zeiss lenses. So, quality wise the Nikon option should be concerned.

There is little doubt that high end backs with high end optics outperform the D800/D800E when optimally used.

Stitching is an alternative in many cases. Stitching is easy. Stitching can expand resolution capability, but it is not always possible. Stitching may also help expanding angle of view. This of course applies to both MF and lesser DSLRs.

Whatever equipment is used, it is just a tool. The tool needs to work for the application. A nice tool is nice to work with. It may be important that the user feels satisfaction with his/her tools.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr




:D  
That's so funny coming from you, Bernard!  "stitch, stitch, stitch.... "



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 10, 2012, 02:02:41 pm
Of course nothing is impossible nowadays but I was curious because visualising, composing and taking a 1 shot image is a different experience to creating a stitched image.

I do quite a bit of stitching myself (on Nikon, iPhone, Techcams and MFSLRs so I know what it takes to make a good image (quality and aesthetics) and IMO a single frame image is a more rewarding experience

If you use a back on a tech camera you can use a GG and at least do the framing VISUALLY with little need for cropping...can't do that with an SLR...

If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

If that's your thing then more power to you but I don't think that you're in the majority...

No offence intended, seriously!

Yair

Composition can be done in many ways. Painters don't have much of a problem. When your subject is static it is easy to imagine the composition.
There are also many tools available such as a directors eyepiece, your fingers and thumbs in the classic framing gesture.

No one here is saying it is pointless to shoot single frame, most of us do it all the same.

The real point is that there is more choice today than previously. Stitching software has made great progress and systems for automated stitching shooting like the gigapan are inexpensive, relatively compact and easy to use with built in set up wizards.

The second important point is that it is no longer such a big compromise to opt for a less expensive combination of D800E and a gigapan.
You won't even have that huge of a difference when shooting single frames. See this:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=iq180%20vs%20d800&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.circleofconfusion.ie%2Fd800e-vs-phase-one-iq180%2F&ei=Jbh1UNSrA-KpiALMnoHIAQ&usg=AFQjCNFze8_TyPbne15e5K1QpfXyVoRjTA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=iq180%20vs%20d800&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.circleofconfusion.ie%2Fd800e-vs-phase-one-iq180%2F&ei=Jbh1UNSrA-KpiALMnoHIAQ&usg=AFQjCNFze8_TyPbne15e5K1QpfXyVoRjTA)


What is also important is that if someone has a finite budget of lets say $ 40,000 how is this best spent for a landscape photographer?
Maybe a slight compromise in single shot image quality and $ 30,000 to spend on trips to some of the worlds best locations is the best choice.
As equipment offers more and more quality for less money it becomes more and more about the photographer and what you put in front of the lens.
YOU CAN'T MOVE MOUNTAINS.......

Similar logic applies to other fields too. Fashion is a good example. I never recommend MFD to a young fashion photographer. I recommend 35mm DSLR and a film MF SLR....
and spending the moeny saved on travelling to different fashion capitals and building a more "worldly" portfolio while learning more about fashion.
Often they think they have to have MFD to be taken seriously... not the case.
Who do you think a designer is going to work with? The guy with photos from Milan, Paris, New York or the guy with the big camera?
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 10, 2012, 02:22:47 pm

If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

If that's your thing then more power to you but I don't think that you're in the majority...

No offence intended, seriously!

Yair

No one here is saying to go out and get a D5100 instead of MFD. The suggestion is to go with the very highest end 35mm DSLR that has superior dynamic range, NO ANTI ALIAS filter and color pretty much on par with anything out there. The D5100 has lower dynamic range than MFD, the D800 has higher Dynamic range than MFD.

No one is suggesting that a person considering entry level MFD with a budget of $14,000 go and buy an entry level 35mm DSLR.
What is being suggested is that there is no advantage in getting a crop sensor MFD cameras when the same can be achieved with a D800E and more if stitching is added to the mix. Seems reasonable to me and a few others here.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 10, 2012, 03:09:28 pm
No one here is saying to go out and get a D5100 instead of MFD.
I'm not saying that either...
Quote
The D5100 has lower dynamic range than MFD, the D800 has higher Dynamic range than MFD.
According to 1 website with 1 testing method
Quote
No one is suggesting that a person considering entry level MFD with a budget of $14,000 go and buy an entry level 35mm DSLR.
Neither do I
Quote
What is being suggested is that there is no advantage in getting a crop sensor MFD cameras when the same can be achieved with a D800E and more if stitching is added to the mix
Not sure if that's what Bernard is suggesting...but you seem to know better because you don't even give him a chance to reply...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 10, 2012, 04:18:29 pm
Not sure if that's what Bernard is suggesting...but you seem to know better because you don't even give him a chance to reply...

Actually Yaya... he had already replied just a few posts back and I was simply adding my point of view on the discussion.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 10, 2012, 05:04:12 pm
Actually Yaya... he had already replied just a few posts back and I was simply adding my point of view on the discussion.

Bernard is talking about 80MP $50K cameras and AFAIK (which is not much) there's no such thing as crop-sensor 80MP...and since he has more real-life experience with small-sensor stitching than all of us put together and some very impressive landscape work under his belt (as opposed to others who prefer to share anecdotal articles/ links), I am genuinely interested in his insights and opinion on this matter.

Yair
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 10, 2012, 05:31:36 pm
Here we go again, all the DSLRs are the same?

There is no difference btwn a D5100 pixels and D800 pixels?

Yup, you said it!! Agreed, what is up with that??? How then there can be no difference between the pixels on a D800 and 80MP back ??  :o Of course there is!!!  (though some seem to be dreaming...) ;D

Further... there seem to be few followers to the "religion" called to stitch, most folks seem to shoot one shots. What is up with arguing stitching so aggressively then, is that not misleading??? And, what is up with compare a 200MP stitch from a D800 to a single from an IQ 180 ?? ? Must be tad mad per most peoples standards... plus of course, the pixels are not same and does not contain same information no matter how many pixels one assemble.

Notably few posters in above seem to really figure out that there are more differences than the number of pixels to an image. Is that really true??? ... Notably except EricWHiss and Yair... and BC, excellent posts guys :)

FredBGG is good at Googling... can he do else for us, say actually post a medium format digital image as good as his claimed to have shot film 6x8 cm images??????

I think BCs post sums up to OP>

I swear if this was a e-magaizne on cars, somebody would record the sound of a toyota door slamming next to a BMW swearing the toyota was quieter.  There are buyers of both brands and some people even buy both, though I bet the drive the bmw more.

I know I have a bunch of 35mm digitals, some medium format backs and cameras, digital video and digital cinema cameras and . . . actually  . . . well probably, way too many cameras, but we use them all and usually for different reasons.

In the new normal it seems we work very robust days and use about all of our equipment, every project.

Anyway, TMark.  I will probably eventually get someone to ship me a D800E and look at it but right now I'm pretty well set on cameras, then again I don't disbelieve that it's a capable camera.  I know with my Nikons, the D700 and the D3, both are very difficult to manage skin tones and colors.

We can do it, but under lower iso, they're an issue, though maybe the D800 is better.

I know the original poster is talking about landscapes and I'm really not the guy to answer that question.  All I can suggest again is to test them, regardless of price and gasp, gasp regardless of ultimate image quality, whatever that is.

I do know if I did do landscapes and REALLY and truly needed 80 mpx I'd just buy an 80 mpx back and camera because I like things in one shot, but hey, that's just me.  Also I don't really care if a lens is sharp edge to edge because I very rarely need edge sharpness, think it's pretty when a lens has falloff and some softness to the corners.  In fact some of the prettiest work we've ever done and a style that continues to get us work is using the Contax with that old Boris Hartiblie tilt shift and I can tell you nothing is really sharp on that lens but the very center.

Buying clients like the look because I think it looks less digital, less clack clack, more click manually focus, think about it, click.

Now, those are the things I know, but what i think is with all these very heated discussions three things are left out.

1.  Why do you have to have any one camera?  It's quite reasonable to have multiple formats.  I do, I use them, they're paid for, they make me money and shoot the way I want.

2.  There is nothing wrong with using a camera that is not as efficient as something that costs less, or more.  I love the Contax(s) I use and love the analog feel.  I spend a lot of time with my eye on a viewfinder and my eye on a computer screen and I like the viewfinder a lot more than a computer screen, so cameras that feel less computer and more camera is fine by me.

3.  We all know we're in this weird world wide economic stagnation and everybody is looking for the less expensive alternative.  Clients, suppliers, everyone, but I'm fortunate that I own my own equipment and can shoot to my standards not just what the budget dictates.  I have to admit I appreciate that Phase (and I guess all medium format companies) have continued to update their software so my cameras are more viable today than they were when I bought them.   Speaking of economics, just add up buying a $3,000 camera you'll use for two years or a $15,000 camera you'll use for 7 years and the numbers are close to a wash and even if they weren't wouldn't you rather have something that feels special, a device that becomes part of you and your work?

4.  (I know I said 3).  Use what you want to use, to shoot what you want to shoot.  I have no doubt that they people that stitch like working that way.  I also know some photographers love the latest model of everything.  There is nothing wrong with either direction, but to try to get back to the original poster, really test before you buy.  Any good dealer will either rent or or rent discounted if you buy almost any camera and even if you have to fly to do it, you'll be much happier to know that what you bought fits for your style of work, not you fitting to it.

5,  (yea yea, I know I said 3 but I'm on a roll).  

The last few years I've grown tired of hearing about the "new normal" of only delivering what is required and holding things to a low bar rather than higher.  

I also find it somewhat absurd that people that want higher salaries, higher rates and fees take exception to a camera maker that wants decent profits.  Actually I find it strange that living in a world economy profit has become a word said in hushed tones.

Sure, $30,000 to $50,000 is very high for a camera (any camera) but if you look, shop, test and maybe just wait you can find a deal and there are deals out there from reputable dealers of all makes, but the OP's desire to buy an H4 makes sense to me.  He wants to buy one step from the latest and enjoy a camera, but instead of anybody with an H4d making a post, everyone says buy a Nikon.  

Maybe the Nikon is the new normal and everyone should buy one, maybe we all should wear grey jumpsuits and ride in push carts, but I doubt if the world is going to go that way.

Whether you shoot for pleasure or business, (hopefully both), there is no joy in limiting yourself, less joy in just joining the crowd.  

Does a camera make you better . . . I don't know, maybe-maybe not, but does a camera you like using make you feel better about what your shooting and delivering, whether it goes on the living room wall or in Times Square?    Hell yes.


IMO

BC

P.S.  2 years ago, my business partner/producer wife wanted a Leica.  She didn't like focusing my M-8, so we went to a dealer and tried everything.  She bought a Leica X-1.  Were there better cameras, I dunno, maybe. Were there better prices . . . sure, but that doesn't matter because she likes it, it makes her feel good, she takes photos with it and will use it for years.  

It makes her happy.  Happy is good.



Lets see, what else... any pictures for a change? Here are two from my prior 28MP Leaf. It is tad of what the poster asked of I believe. Nope... I would not have enjoyed shooting them with a dslr instead, but that is mere me. I experienced a difference in quality of image, but... that is per my experience as a photographer, e.i. individual. A choice. In end the image is what matters. ;)

Could I have made same images stitching? Why should I care. Why would I want to do that and make more difficult??? I was frank indeed pleased with that 28MP back, but somehow I kept using Velvia 50 slide film at times alongside because of its pleasing colors to my eye. My 80MP made me prematurely drop all film, because - though different colors - the sensation from the images finally brought me same in digital as film. DSLRs are similar improving in colors, but notably have less good colors than digital backs. That includes the D800.

What more? I read years ago that when you pick up medium format you have an immediate improvement in your images, because the cameras are not that different to operate than an SLR, yet you see better and they encourage to slow down...

That is about it. Can we end this thread now???  ;D
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 06:34:25 pm
Yup, you said it!! Agreed, what is up with that??? How then there can be no difference between the pixels on a D800 and 80MP back ??  :o Of course there is!!!  (though some seem to be dreaming...) ;D

Available data shows the gap to be much smaller btwn the pixel quality of the 80mp back and D800 vs the gap btwn the D800 and D5100. Note that I have not said that the pixel quality of the D800 was the same. I have just pointed at recent reports from people having shot both with opposite views. Reason would indicate that they are pretty close.

Further... there seem to be few followers to the "religion" called to stitch, most folks seem to shoot one shots. What is up with arguing stitching so aggressively then, is that not misleading??? And, what is up with compare a 200MP stitch from a D800 to a single from an IQ 180 ?? ? Must be tad mad per most peoples standards... plus of course, the pixels are not same and does not contain same information no matter how many pixels one assemble.

What would be misleading would be not to make the OP aware that great things can be achieved with stitching at a low cost.

Since I would not benefit in anyway from him deciding to stitch, what makes you think that this advise is not genuine? Who is the agressor here? Who is calling a shooting technique a "religion"?

I have not written a single negative word about MFDB, I have solely focused on the existence of an extremely valuable alternative. I do fully acknowledge the fact that this technique is not universal, and that it does require a learning curve. But it is well suited to grand landscape.

My offer stands to do a real world comparison. I'll be in Shanghai next week, want to do a test Tuesday 6AM on the bund?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 10, 2012, 09:12:57 pm


FredBGG is good at Googling... can he do else for us, say actually post a medium format digital image as good as his claimed to have shot film 6x8 cm images??????


So now you are accusing me of not having taken the 6x8cm film images that I have posted on the forum? That's quite an accusation. You realize that you are accusing me of
plagiarism! That is totally unacceptable.



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 10, 2012, 10:47:14 pm
Anders - I like that 2nd shot! Nice!

Fred,
He means digital not film since that is what we are talking about.  I would have suggested LF film might be a low cost alternative for landscape otherwise.  

Do you do any landscape work?  Got to be much different from celebrity portraits.   And any of that with digital medium format backs?   Love to see something.

I'm doing scientific imaging, art repro and my own artwork which isn't landscape either but I do take some on occasion.   Mostly with either LF film or my 80mp AFi-ii 12.   Stitching doesn't work for my subject matter at all.  

But here's one of my landscape shots from last year using my AFi-ii 12  (80mp) - the light was changing so fast then, I don't think I could have stitched this but no doubt the forum pundits here would tell me otherwise and how I could have done better.  Still I can print this single frame quite large.  



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 10, 2012, 11:14:23 pm
You know, it's sort of uncool and in fact actionable to defame someone on a public forum, especially when they earn their living behind a lens.  I would suggest that everyone cool it.  Just rebut points objectively. This isn't the Middle Ages.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that the IQ180 owners aren't frothing at the mouth, nor are the Blad and Leica S people.   Am I missing something?  Something else that I find odd are the statements that people who don't own a Leaf Aptus II 12 cannot comment on it. Their opinions are invalid due to a lack of ownership. However, if I'm not mistaken, Anders doesn't own a D800 nor does Erik, yet there is plenty of opinion voiced about its defects, real or imagined.

I say all this because this bullshit is ruining the forum. I'll go on record to say the Aptus II 12 AFi samples I've seen on other forums are stunning, better than my 75s, old 54s, old P30+, or Sarah Silver's Sinar 54m. Better than my D800e. If handled correctly the D800 e is as good or better than the last generation backs. But it looks different due to lenses, and to a degree sensor size.  That's my take away.  Agree disagree whatever. I'm no fan boy. I value objectivity. Now please stop arguing over this shit.

T
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2012, 11:16:19 pm
But here's one of my landscape shots from last year using my AFi-ii 12  (80mp) - the light was changing so fast then, I don't think I could have stitched this but no doubt the forum pundits here would tell me otherwise and how I could have done better.  Still I can print this single quite large. 

Nice image!

I guess that this is me...  ;D I only mention stitching to those people who are looking at a different solution for what they do, either to reduce cost or to reach higher levels of pixel counts because they need them for their applications, typically landscape.

If you are happy about the quality you have achieved with this image, I don't see why I would propose you another approach.

Although Anders would have you think otherwise, I am not married with stitching, I am fully aware of the limitations of the technique and am only advocating it as one possible solution to consider for suitable applications.

I tend to get amused when some posters, including - again - Anders, refuse to acknowledge the value of stitching, seemingly only to protect their dear feeling that the camera they own is the device delivering the best image quality in the world.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2012, 01:26:20 am
Hi,

Just a few comments.

The original poster was not asking about IQ180 but MF equipment in the 14000$US range.

Obviously, there are several options in that price range, including Pentax 645D and lower end Hasselblads.

I would certainly suggest that Bernard has a very good point about the Nikon D800/D800E offering very high quality at low cost.

Regarding pixel quality, I actually think pixels are created equal. I would not be able to tell a single pixel shot with an early model canon Ixus from a IQ180 pixel. A pixel is just a number.

Stitching is a good thing. I do often stitch instead of cropping. Why waste perfectly good pixels? Sometimes I stitch for wide angle of view. The enclosed image is an example of that. Field of view here is around 180 degrees, horizontally.

Obviously, different equipment has different capabilities. Cameras are just tools, but some tools may be better suited for certain work than others. Personally, I much prefer live view to focusing on viewfinder screen, I don't think magnification is high enough in viewfinders. With tilt and shift I'm pretty sure live view makes life much easier.

Contrary to some, I think that it is OK to compare cameras based on test images, if those images are properly executed.

FredBG pointed to a discussion on GetDPI.com started by "TAshley". This gentleman shot a comparison image with Nikon D800 and a Leica Summicron lens and an IQ 180 with an 80 mm lens. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/36838-someone-had-do.html

The raw images are here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/76366907/_DSC0510.NEF

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/76366907/CF001872.IIQ

I downloaded both and checked. One thing that is pretty clear is the Nikon image has somewhat cleaner shadows, even when the Nikon image is uprezzed to the original size of the Pase image. I was using LR 4.2, using Capture One might have given different results. From this test it seems to me that the "pixels" on the Nikon are better, but the Phase One has more of them. Sharpness is a bit difficult to compare. Uprezzing the Nikon image to Phase One size adds artifacts. The Nikon image also has more DoF.

Regarding color, it is actually mostly math. All sensors produce four monochrome channels, except the Foevon which has three monochrome channels. Interpretation of color is done by the raw converter, which converts those four channels into RGB images. Color can be tweaked almost infinitely.

Jeff Schewe demonstrates this making an image from an iPhone indistinguishable from a P65+ image at print size. The example can be found in his latest book, "The Digital Negative".

Just in case someone thinks I don't take pictures: http://echophoto.smugmug.com/

Best regards
Erik


Nice image!

I guess that this is me...  ;D I only mention stitching to those people who are looking at a different solution for what they do, either to reduce cost or to reach higher levels of pixel counts because they need them for their applications, typically landscape.

If you are happy about the quality you have achieved with this image, I don't see why I would propose you another approach.

Although Anders would have you think otherwise, I am not married with stitching, I am fully aware of the limitations of the technique and am only advocating it as one possible solution to consider for suitable applications.

I tend to get amused when some posters, including - again - Anders, refuse to acknowledge the value of stitching, seemingly only to protect their dear feeling that the camera they own is the device delivering the best image quality in the world.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 11, 2012, 02:06:47 am
Can you site any data to back that up?   I've had the most problems with my Leica R camera bodies followed by Canon DSLR's and lenses.  Cross my fingers, but I never had a problem with any of Rollei camera bodies (though I have bought some used stuff on ebay that needed service on arrival).   It would be interesting to poll the user base here and find out how many failures per brand and make and whether they were DOA or failed during usage.  I know a lot of people that have had to send back DSLR lenses they bought new but had issues with them for example. I even had one canon lens that had a air bubble cast into the front element. Why that got past inspection and quality control is a mystery! Canon replaced immediately but still...


Well, repairing MF is expensive, there are price lists for that. Or one may consider it cheap, it all depends. Repairing a €30K back will probably look quite cheap if you put it in relation to the unit price of the back. Replacing a sensor glass costs about €1000+VAT, a little variation depending on how much the middle-man (dealer) wants. You can do this replacement yourself too, and then it is about half. So the work costs €500, which would mean at least 5 hours of work for a €100/h engineer, or the price is set some other way. A service check is included in the glass replacement, maybe that's where all the hours go, but I suspect a classic ripoff :-)

I have noted that many MFDB owner starts calculating percent rather than absolute numbers. And if you relate all prices to a €30K-€40K MFDB, it actually looks quite cheap.

Concerning reliability I would expect higher amount of failures from DSLR bodies because they are used in tough conditions, while I would guess many, possibly even most MFD systems don't even see outdoor conditions at all. Some surely do, but the statistics would be skewed because so many are nicely treated. The older backs with open fan vents and external batteries are quite obviously not designed for tough conditions, but this seems to be better with the latest backs. I also think it is a factor that people tend to become very careful when holding a €30K system, while they are willing to take some more risks with a €4K system. When I do documentary photo with my DSLR and it starts raining, I just continue shooting. When it starts raining with on my MFDB I cover it up. The expectations on what the systems can handle is different.

I would expect reliability to be "good enough" for both systems, but you'll have to be prepared to pay.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2012, 02:48:22 am
Hi,

I shot Minolta, Konica Minolta and Sony for 40+ years.

I must have had something like 30 cameras in those 40+ years. A single camera failed for me fully, that was a Minolta XD7. Some of those cameras got soaking wet either shooting or once when my bag rained in during a skyfall.

I had one lens repair, of about 40 lenses I owned, a Minolta 80-200/2.8 APO, bayonette replaced due to wear. One lens came back, supposedly being in specs. I also have Pentax 67 with five lenses.

I guess I was lucky.

Best regards
Erik


Well, repairing MF is expensive, there are price lists for that. Or one may consider it cheap, it all depends. Repairing a €30K back will probably look quite cheap if you put it in relation to the unit price of the back. Replacing a sensor glass costs about €1000+VAT, a little variation depending on how much the middle-man (dealer) wants. You can do this replacement yourself too, and then it is about half. So the work costs €500, which would mean at least 5 hours of work for a €100/h engineer, or the price is set some other way (a service check is included in the glass replacement, maybe that's where all the hours go).

I have noted that many MFDB owner starts calculating percent rather than absolute numbers. And if you relate all prices to a €30K-€40K MFDB, it actually looks quite cheap.

Concerning reliability I would expect higher amount of failures from DSLR bodies because they are used in tough conditions, while I would guess many, possibly even most MFD systems don't even see outdoor conditions at all. Some surely do, but the statistics would be skewed because so many are nicely treated. The older backs with open fan vents and external batteries are quite obviously not designed for tough conditions, but this seems to be better with the latest backs. I also think it is a factor that people tend to become very careful when holding a €30K system, while they are willing to take some more risks with a €4K system. When I do documentary photo with my DSLR and it starts raining, I just continue shooting. When it starts raining with on my MFDB I cover it up. The expectations on what the systems can handle is different.

I would expect reliability to be "good enough" for both systems, but you'll have to be prepared to pay.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: MrSmith on October 11, 2012, 03:26:01 am
2, no 3 or 4 bald men arguing over a comb.

Never seen magenta snow before? I blame global warming.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2012, 03:49:46 am
2, no 3 or 4 bald men arguing over a comb.

Exactly, who better than a bald man can explain another bald man that he may not need a comb?  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 11, 2012, 04:19:12 am
Anders - I like that 2nd shot! Nice!

Fred,
He means digital not film since that is what we are talking about.  

Nope his words were "his claimed to have shot film 6x8 cm images?" He is referring to film....
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 11, 2012, 04:42:22 am


But here's one of my landscape shots from last year using my AFi-ii 12  (80mp) - the light was changing so fast then, I don't think I could have stitched this but no doubt the forum pundits here would tell me otherwise and how I could have done better.  Still I can print this single frame quite large.  





(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70675.0;attach=67722;image)

Nice image. Nice delicate post work. No exaggerated contrast or colors, very natural feel. The pale colors of the sky make one feel the chill after sunset in the desert.
To much stuff out there that looks too doctored up, over filtered or punched up for more "pop".

You are also right that fast changing light can be tricky with stitching. I would not go beyond a 6 or 8 frame stitch. My Gigapan can do that in about 12 seconds on the fast setting. It controls the camera and shoots with a delay that can be adjusted.
Doing horizontal sweeps would handle it OK avoiding color changes. However certainly easier and more relaxing in one shot and in one shot either an 80 MP back or 8x10 film is the best you'll get.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 11, 2012, 05:00:00 am

Just in case someone thinks I don't take pictures: http://echophoto.smugmug.com/

Best regards
Erik



Nice pictures...

The photos of the Dali museum made me nostalgic.

I used to have a house in Cadaques and I would go to the cafe and bump into Salvador Dali who had a house not far away.

IF any of you get the chance to go to Cadaques it's an incredibly beautiful place to shoot. Skys can be simply amazing due to the weather patterns with the Pyrenees so near by.

Boy the Malibu Hills are a dump compared to Cadaques. If I wasn't so hooked on big wave kitesurfing I'd move back.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 11, 2012, 05:01:36 am
I have just pointed at recent reports from people having shot both with opposite views. Reason would indicate that they are pretty close.

They are different, though as I stated some tend to illusion that their DSLR is same, it is not. A number of posters using both D800 and MFDB (not even 80MP) was interesting read and stated they do so for different reasons; http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=70759.0

In end it is mere choice, and whatever gear makes happy to make images, so who cares in end?

My offer stands to do a real world comparison. I'll be in Shanghai next week, want to do a test Tuesday 6AM on the bund?

Frankly, for one I do not like comparison shots but to focus on my making of image. I am current also far from Shanghai...


So now you are accusing me of not having taken the 6x8cm film images that I have posted on the forum?

Sorry, perhaps I should have phrased that it would be interesting to view a quality shot made with your MFDB ?


(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70675.0;attach=67722;image)

Eric, Nice! I like the color shades of the rocks and transition in the sky. Really shows the fine gradations of colors the back picks up. How much processing?

I tend to get amused when some posters, including - again - Anders, refuse to acknowledge the value of stitching, seemingly only to protect their dear feeling that the camera they own is the device delivering the best image quality in the world.  ;)

Nope and absolute not, my own camera is only a tool and not my love affair. It helps me making images. The photographer makes the image. Thus way you describe me is complete incorrect.

I do value stitched images, but flat stitching which is simpler - and better. Same, that is also a tool. Yet the OP asked of MFDB and has received a long discussion on what was not that question... including numerous posts arguing rotation stitching... and dslr instead... Notably that seem not what was asked...

Regarding pixel quality, I actually think pixels are created equal. I would not be able to tell a single pixel shot with an early model canon Ixus from a IQ180 pixel. A pixel is just a number.

Ehh... so an iPhone pixel collects same info as other pixels on sensors ? Obvious no.

The enclosed image is an example of that. Field of view here is around 180 degrees, horizontally.

I would argue is an example of curvature of landscape in image which to my eye is disturbing...


Replacing a sensor glass costs about €1000+VAT, a little variation depending on how much the middle-man (dealer) wants.

Per what I was told replacing ALL except the sensor costs little more. The sensor is the most expensive part. The disadvantage with Phase One backs compared to Leaf is that Phase One backs need to go back to factory... many repairs can be made by a qualified agent to a Leaf back which makes them cheaper to repair.  ;) Hassy I do not know.

... I would guess many, possibly even most MFD systems don't even see outdoor conditions at all. Some surely do, but the statistics would be skewed because so many are nicely treated. The older backs with open fan vents and external batteries are quite obviously not designed for tough conditions, but this seems to be better with the latest backs.

You would benefit to search the forums for durability of Leaf backs with vents and external batteries. Your assumption is complete wrong. They are extremely durable, but no... Leaf did not make YouTube videos of freezing them, baking them, parking car on them, dropping from balloon or having elephant stamp on them. After all... I believe few photographers use their gear in such ways...

For what it is worth, I travel extensive with my gear, across Asia and to Europe... if I had any doubts to durability of Leaf back I would not use it. My first travel with brand new Leaf back was to dusty India.

 ;D



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 11, 2012, 05:16:30 am
(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=70675.0;attach=67715;image)

Great photograph. I like the contrast of the Taj Mahal in the haze/mist and the trash and random cement block on the river bank.
At first glance I did not like the heavy contrast in the foreground, but seeing the trash it works in an uncanny way. The harsh contrast and reality of trash and cement against the the fairy tale Taj Mahal in the distance. The colors and pastel soft contrast of the Taj Mahal almost resemble the quality of those glorious matte painting of the Hollywood colossal epics.

Did you shoot any lower to the water with the trash even more in the foreground? Could be even more dramatic. Rather sad to see the trash on the river bank so close to one of the wonders of the world.

The Taj Mahal also projects the most amazing light. Anyone shooting there should take some portraits using the Taj Mahal as the wolds most amazing reflector.  ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 11, 2012, 05:26:07 am
The colors and pastel soft contrast of the Taj Mahal almost resemble the quality of those glorious matte painting of the Hollywood colossal epics.

Thanks and very much appreciated. Actually, I read up on some painting books the other year in attempt to learn from painters how they attempt to lead the eye in an image and create a sensation of light and landscape. Not that I paint any whatsoever at all, but because I viewed it could help me in processing of a RAW file. All done in Capture One Pro. No photoshop.

The original was of course in quality light. Light is everything and is a fact that has not changed since film or glass plates.  ;)

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 11, 2012, 05:38:31 am
I'm doing scientific imaging, art repro and my own artwork which isn't landscape either but I do take some on occasion.   Mostly with either LF film or my 80mp AFi-ii 12.   Stitching doesn't work for my subject matter at all.  

Just out of interest, what kind of art repro? From what I hear, there are many people out there who stitch for this.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2012, 07:01:26 am
Hi,

Yes, indeed! A single pixel contains just a number. Say that number is 1354. There is no way to tell an iPhone pixel from an IQ180 pixel, both are just numbers. To get color information it takes 4 pixels, on both iPhone and IQ180 and additional information in the raw file.  There is one difference the IQ180 pixel is probably lager and can probably hold more electron charges. It is said to have a larger Full Well Capacity. But it is still just a number.

Best regards
Erik



Quote
Ehh... so an iPhone pixel collects same info as other pixels on sensors ? Obvious no.


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: NickyTaylorphoto on October 11, 2012, 09:14:30 am
WOW what a wealth of information from you all.   THANK YOU!

As this was my first post on this website I can tell.

1. Im going to have to stick around.

2. There are a lot of people on here that I can learn so much more from.

I think after reading all the info and researching along side it all, Im going to go for the D800e and research a little more to which will be the best wide angle lens around 24mm to use that on.

I think I have come to this decision because I have actually tested the camera out and know how it feels in my hands. Also I can put the extra $$ saved and buy an underwater house strobes and a great few Trips away with the new gear.

Also just for the sheer fact that it could cause so much controversy when going head to head with medium format digital (the IQ180 at that) I think taking advantage of the price for the technology, is best and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level. 
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 11, 2012, 09:30:35 am
You're making your decision before actually trying the alternative? This surprises me given that based on your travel schedule it would be arbitrarily easy for you to spend an afternoon actually shooting pictures with each system.

Cost of entry aside, you'll be doing years worth of work with whichever system you choose - why not base your decision on pictures and shooting rather than just discussion?

A digiback on a tech camera is a very different tool than a D800. There are advantages/disadvantages to each, but they are so different it's really hard to compare them directly in abstraction. The only comparison you can make between them is per person - what that user finds best/worst about each setup.

(note Nick and I have spoken about a tech camera outside of this thread - so it's not out of context)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 11, 2012, 10:17:43 am
I would at least try out an MFD camera.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Go Go on October 11, 2012, 10:30:37 am
" I think I have come to this decision because I have actually tested the camera out and know how it feels in my hands. Also I can put the extra $$ saved and buy an underwater house strobes and a great few Trips away with the new gear. "

Bon Voyage Nicky!

Happy trails, be sure to come back and show some images!

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 11, 2012, 11:12:21 am
Quote from: Anders_HK link=topic=70675.msg565807#msg565807 date=1349946096
Eric, [b
Nice![/b] I like the color shades of the rocks and transition in the sky. Really shows the fine gradations of colors the back picks up. How much processing?

Thanks - There isn't really much post work.   I did everything in C1 on the raw conversion but I did touch up a few dust spots in PS5, but I see now that I missed one.


Just out of interest, what kind of art repro? From what I hear, there are many people out there who stitch for this.

I'm sure there are a lot of people still using scan backs too.  I prefer to use my Rollei 6008AF and hasselblad/imacon CF 528 microstep back when I have time, but otherwise use my AFi-ii 12.  The micro step picks up more subtle nuances (IMHO) and has an edge in tonality and crispness.  This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: MrSmith on October 11, 2012, 11:25:36 am
and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level. 


that's what i would do, a small investment in a canikon and a few top quality lenses then see what's going on in the world of MF in a couple of years either:
1. very little except 200+mp sensors
2. very little except 200+mp sensors and a consolidation of makers with 1 going under and a buyout hitting s/h values of 50-60mp backs no longer supported by a manufacturer.
3 a technology catch-up of with higher iso noise performance, proper tilt shift lenses and a live view that doesn't look like a bad cctv video.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2012, 11:31:46 am
Hi,

Regarding repro work, do you build your own profiles?

Reason I ask is partly because I got the impression that most standard profiles give a bit to much saturation. I presume that in reprophotography you would strive for exact color and not pleasant color?

Best regards
Erik


Thanks - There isn't really much post work.   I did everything in C1 on the raw conversion but I did touch up a few dust spots in PS5, but I see now that I missed one.


I'm sure there are a lot of people still using scan backs too.  I prefer to use my Rollei 6008AF and hasselblad/imacon CF 528 microstep back when I have time, but otherwise use my AFi-ii 12.  The micro step picks up more subtle nuances (IMHO) and has an edge in tonality and crispness.  This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2012, 11:34:30 am
This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....

Eric,

As mentioned, I am not trying to convince you that you need to stitch, but post-processing is really a matter of minutes with the latest software be it Auto Pano pro or PTGui.

The following image is an 8 images stitch shot with a Leica 280 f4 APO on the D800. Shooting itself took 30 seconds, stitching in Autopano pro took 3 minutes end to end.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8461/7914201184_3443e60488_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2012, 11:37:57 am
Hi,

Don't forget, you need to test all equipment you buy.

I would recommend a couple of sites:

http://dap.diglloyd.com/  (pay site but worth it)

http://www.bythom.com/

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/d800-lens-selection (about lenses)

Lens rentals is a great site. They are renting lenses and test all lenses before shipping out, so they have a very wide experience of lenses.

Renting a lens may be a good option to find out.


This is my collection of good links: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/photo_links.html

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr


WOW what a wealth of information from you all.   THANK YOU!

As this was my first post on this website I can tell.

1. Im going to have to stick around.

2. There are a lot of people on here that I can learn so much more from.

I think after reading all the info and researching along side it all, Im going to go for the D800e and research a little more to which will be the best wide angle lens around 24mm to use that on.

I think I have come to this decision because I have actually tested the camera out and know how it feels in my hands. Also I can put the extra $$ saved and buy an underwater house strobes and a great few Trips away with the new gear.

Also just for the sheer fact that it could cause so much controversy when going head to head with medium format digital (the IQ180 at that) I think taking advantage of the price for the technology, is best and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level.  

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 11, 2012, 11:50:17 am
As mentioned, I am not trying to convince you that you need to stitch, but post-processing is really a matter of minutes with the latest software be it Auto Pano pro or PTGui.
The following image is an 8 images stitch shot with a Leica 280 f4 APO on the D800. Shooting itself took 30 seconds, stitching in Autopano pro took 3 minutes end to end.

I'm sure that 280/4 and D800 is a really nice combination!   RE: stitching I've tried both autopano pro and ptgui (via kekus) on the mac but not for a while. It seemed like I had to really go through the images carefully to look for places with seams or other issues so probably I didn't do it right.  At some point I'll give it another go, but probably not for art repro since the 10800x8800 pix in multishot (non-interpolated) is good enough for most things.

Regarding repro work, do you build your own profiles?

Yes, with the CF 528 back but actually the hasselblad profile is quite good - very little difference in color and I've never had anyone comment on color either way. With the CF 528  I normally work with the reproduction mode activated in Phocus.  I use the C1 profiles for the Aptus and their color editor to make fine adjustments.    Bigger issues are getting even lighting so LCC shots are required.   Some gallery spaces are small but have big paintings and that presents challenges to lighting and the use of cross polarizing techniques.   Distortion free planar lenses are a plus for this kind of work.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 11, 2012, 12:32:46 pm
Thanks - There isn't really much post work.   I did everything in C1 on the raw conversion but I did touch up a few dust spots in PS5, but I see now that I missed one.


I'm sure there are a lot of people still using scan backs too.  I prefer to use my Rollei 6008AF and hasselblad/imacon CF 528 microstep back when I have time, but otherwise use my AFi-ii 12.  The micro step picks up more subtle nuances (IMHO) and has an edge in tonality and crispness.  This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....

Thanks for the reply Eric - it's not an area I'm familiar with, and previously have only really heard about people doing massive gigapixels for archiving purposes.

Regards,

Gerald.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 11, 2012, 01:20:23 pm
I've done some stitching, and if you're a pixel-peeping perfectionist like me you really need to have a proper pano head tuned for the nodal point. If you have that stitching works fine even with objects nearby, assuming that the stitching software can compensate for vignetting and distortion. I guess software in general has become better at that. I have used Hugin myself which is extremely difficult to understand how to use, but when you know how it makes wonderful results. The commercial programs are much better usability, I use quite a lot of open source tools together with commercial software since I'm the kind of guy that likes to read code... :)

One reason I got a medium format tech cam was to get away from stitching though, I like the one-shot picture. For the same reason I find 80 megapixels a bit overkill, my shooting style generally requires so much DoF so 80 megapixels seems like a waste (diffraction blur), and if I start focus stacking to get around that I'm back at stitching again... if 80 megapixels was cheap and did not have that awful color cast I'd love to have it though, in like 1 out of 10 pictures I could actually make use of the resolution :-).
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 11, 2012, 01:30:18 pm
Thanks for the reply Eric - it's not an area I'm familiar with, and previously have only really heard about people doing massive gigapixels for archiving purposes.

Regards,

Gerald.

Hi Gerald, in the archiving world the typical sizes are A3/ A2/ A1/ A0 in 300 or 400dpi (depending on the country and the adopted ISO/ DIN standard), so the largest files are usually not more than 140-150MP (300dpi)

Most municipal/ government documents are produced on A3 or A2 size books so the archived image would be A2 @ 300 dpi = ~35MP or A1@ 300dpi= ~70MP

Which is why 80MP cameras are becoming a standard as they can cover almost everything without any need for stitching etc.

Yair
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 11, 2012, 01:37:12 pm
Hi Gerald, in the archiving world the typical sizes are A3/ A2/ A1/ A0 in 300 or 400dpi (depending on the country and the adopted ISO/ DIN standard), so the largest files are usually not more than 140-150MP (300dpi)

Most municipal/ government documents are produced on A3 or A2 size books so the archived image would be A2 @ 300 dpi = ~35MP or A1@ 300dpi= ~70MP

Which is why 80MP cameras are becoming a standard as they can cover almost everything without any need for stitching etc.

Yair

Perhaps there's some confusion on my part, but I would have thought that art reproduction and document archiving surely have very different requirements?
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 11, 2012, 01:44:46 pm
Depends on the document, the entity digitizing it, and the purpose for which it's being digitized.

Extraction-of-content only is often done on very inexpensive capture stations (Google OEMs one for their own book-scanning needs).

Archiving documents for remote viewing/research/posterity is often done at standards as high or higher than commercial art reproduction.

As one (extreme) point of reference, the US Constitution is a "government document". As are immigration/birth/death records where small hand written notes and minor typographic differences (e.g. how someone's name was spelled when the immigrated: is that an "o" or an "a") are very important. As are, in some countries, diaries/notes/meeting-agendas of politicians where a researcher may want a high quality of reproduction to, for instance, analyze the handwriting to get an idea of the physical state of the author or to authenticate who wrote it. As are a dozen other categories of paper based documents. It's easy to forget in a world of searchable email and video recordings of every major event that for the majority of the history of even a country as young as the US that the only records of many historical events are found in hand written or type-writer made notes; much of this history is in precarious position (degrading/fading/poorly-organized). Even in art history the ability to trace where/how certain artistic movements started and spread involves research into the hand written notes of whose work was displayed in what galleries, sold to whom etc. We do a lot of business in the cultural heritage market (http://www.dtdch.com/). These institutions are very passionate about what they do and a huge part of the market uses digital backs.

But this is all off topic...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 11, 2012, 01:50:16 pm
Also just for the sheer fact that it could cause so much controversy when going head to head with medium format digital (the IQ180 at that) I think taking advantage of the price for the technology, is best and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level. 

I think it is a good strategy. We all have different views on MFD, but as I see it the absolutely weakest offer is the entry level MFDSLR type of cameras. I know some people see "huge" image quality difference, but I cannot, and if you can't then it kind of sucks paying a lot more money for something that is worse in almost every aspect. For fashion and similar applications there's probably a good sales pitch for it (nice tethered workflows with skintone-tuned color profiles etc), but for landscape.... nah.

For landscape I think it can be worthwhile to look into a tech camera though, if it suits your shooting style. If it does it can be really wonderful to work with, it is a whole other shooting experience which you may like. For me using MF is more about the shooting experience than about image quality, although quality is important too. If you tilt/shift a lot the current Nikon offerings are a bit weak, so an entry level back on a tech cam with Schneider lenses can be a good option.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 11, 2012, 01:59:13 pm
Depends on the document, the entity digitizing it, and the purpose for which it's being digitized.

Extraction-of-content only is often done on very inexpensive capture stations (Google OEMs one for their own book-scanning needs).

Archiving documents for remote viewing/research/posterity is often done at standards as high or higher than commercial art reproduction.

As one (extreme) point of reference, the US Constitution is a "government document". As are immigration/birth/death records where small hand written notes and minor typographic differences (e.g. how someone's name was spelled when the immigrated: is that an "o" or an "a") are very important. As are, in some countries, diaries/notes/meeting-agendas of politicians where a researcher may want a high quality of reproduction to, for instance, analyze the handwriting to get an idea of the physical state of the author or to authenticate who wrote it. As are a dozen other categories of paper based documents. It's easy to forget in a world of searchable email and video recordings of every major event that for the majority of the history of even a country as young as the US that the only records of many historical events are found in hand written or type-writer made notes; much of this history is in precarious position (degrading/fading/poorly-organized). Even in art history the ability to trace where/how certain artistic movements started and spread involves research into the hand written notes of whose work was displayed in what galleries, sold to whom etc. We do a lot of business in the cultural heritage market (http://www.dtdch.com/). These institutions are very passionate about what they do and a huge part of the market uses digital backs.

But this is all off topic...

Like I said. There would appear to be a huge difference between document archiving and art reproduction, which is what was being discussed. I'm talking about this kind of stuff -

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/01/google-art-project-offers-gigapixel-images-of-art-classics-ind/

But yeah, off topic.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 11, 2012, 02:10:39 pm
Art (as in old masters paintings etc.) can be reproduced in different ways which are dictated by the required output size in relation to the size of the originals.

For example the world's largest auction house who often sells these items for millions of $/£/€, use 22MP backs as their workhorses as the output size rarely exceeds A4 print.

Museums however (including the 17 mentioned in Google's project), often need high resolution for research or for producing replicates of the originals so they opt for the higher resolution backs but again the output sizes are usually not bigger than 80MP.

As screen technology improves and the resolution goes up, often the requirement for hi-res capture comes from the researchers who view these images on large, hi resolution monitors...

The images used in the project were provided by the museums and were produced with whatever backs each museum uses normally.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2012, 02:40:54 pm
Hi,

Thanks for your explanation on profiles.

Best regards
Erik




Yes, with the CF 528 back but actually the hasselblad profile is quite good - very little difference in color and I've never had anyone comment on color either way. With the CF 528  I normally work with the reproduction mode activated in Phocus.  I use the C1 profiles for the Aptus and their color editor to make fine adjustments.    Bigger issues are getting even lighting so LCC shots are required.   Some gallery spaces are small but have big paintings and that presents challenges to lighting and the use of cross polarizing techniques.   Distortion free planar lenses are a plus for this kind of work.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 11, 2012, 02:58:16 pm
It's definitely a lot more convenient to have the 80mp single capture.  Work flow is very important when there are many items to shoot.  The time savings alone could justify the 80mp back for busy groups.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: HarperPhotos on October 11, 2012, 05:34:33 pm
Hi Nicky,

Personal I think you have made the right decision going for the Nikon D800. As I own a Leaf Aptus 75 and a Nikon D800E I believe you have made the logical choice.

My recommendation for a 24mm lens for landscape would be the Nikon 24mm PC-E lens as if you are taking the time to shot high quality landscape I assume you will be using a tripod so this lens with it amazing resolution and large image circle would be just what you need.

IMO

Simon
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 11, 2012, 11:10:45 pm
Like I said. There would appear to be a huge difference between document archiving and art reproduction, which is what was being discussed. I'm talking about this kind of stuff -

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/01/google-art-project-offers-gigapixel-images-of-art-classics-ind/

But yeah, off topic.

Interesting to see that for the "17 special gigapixel images -- 7,000-megapixel" photos of the prize piece of each museum they chose
to shoot stitching and with 35mm DSLR with motorized heads.

http://youtu.be/aYXdEUB0VgQ (http://youtu.be/aYXdEUB0VgQ)

http://youtu.be/jzZKMSMNjZ0 (http://youtu.be/jzZKMSMNjZ0)

Very large part of the collection are very high res, not just the 17 prize pieces.

I looked at a few from different museums... many are 40,000 x 40,000 pixels.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2012, 11:12:26 pm
I'm sure that 280/4 and D800 is a really nice combination!

The Leica is indeed a very special lens. It delivers a very sweet rendering, extremely sharp without ever being aggressive if you know what I mean. OoF areas are near ideal.

Another light stitch (4 images here):

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8446/7913164648_8ae6b15814_o.jpg)

This being said I was a bit disappointed by the flare behavior of my copy compared to the latest Nikkor with Nano crystal coating or Zeiss ZF glass.

But when the sun is not in the frame it is hard to beat.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 12, 2012, 05:17:15 am
Once again, I can't imagine buying a system that you plan to keep for years, or at least the lens set for years without testing it.

I say this not because the Nikon is not capable, like I say, I've never held the new one, but I do know how to work a file and the medium format files really work deep.

In my segment of the industry there is a huge push to heavy post production, anything that will achieve a different look and style.

We went through the austere period of shooting a gazillion shots a day and now since most advertising and lifestyle look the same, we're back to working in styles that are more planned, more thoughtful, with more and more added post work to achieve something unique.

I'm not saying the Nikon won't do it, but as much as medium format has lagged behind dslrs in some usability, it took years for the dslr companies to make a camera that even gets close to what even a third generation digital back can produce.

As I mentioned I don't do landscape, but my studio does a lot of post work and to equate digital to the older world of larger format film, do you think if Ansel Adams was at his peak today, he would shoot a 35mm camera or a larger format?

I'd bet the larger format to be able to pull the detail out in layers and blend them, which is somewhat the digital equivalent of the old zone system.

Understand I'm not trying to sell anyone, especially the original poster because I think he had has mind made up somewhat before this thread got to two pages.

All I'm saying is I'm always surprised when I set down to really work a file, how much detail I can pull out of my old ghetto p21+ and p30+ regardless of pixel density.

We are right now finishing up a high profile image set this week that has approx. 12 layers per version, when finished we'll probably have gone through twenty layers including special effects.  I could have easily shot the job with any camera and it would be accepted, but I knew with the celebrity subject, knowing that each session would probably one yield 3 or 4 good selects and knowing how unique they wanted the look, out of my cases of Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase backs, the only stills we shot were tethered to the Contax Phase.

The only footage we shot were with the REDs.  

And one more thing.  If you want sharpness and detail, regardless of format, get the heaviest tripod or support you can lift.  I'm serious, because if you want sharpness, detail and useable imagery, nothing will assist with that like a good heavy set of sticks.

As far as saving money on cameras, with professional cameras there is no money savings.  just like cars, you turn the key, they all drop in price.  You might not loose as much with a dslr due to the buy in price, but there is a reason why.

As far as taking that savings to fly and shoot in a location that is exotic or new, I've never seen anyone take a few grand in camera savings and use that as motivation to shoot better.  In fact i've found that the more you invest in something the more your inclined to use it to it's fullest.

It's funny.  My assistants all have dslrs.  The latest versions, 5d3's and one has a Nikon D800.  They all use them, but when they're shooting something that they really find important, they ask to use my digital backs.

IMO

BC

P.S.  One thing I strongly suggest to the mfd companies is to get your cameras into the borrow lens type of rental system.  We've used them from time to time and their prices are real motivators to test something for a week or two we normally wouldn't bother with, or rent an exotic lens that buying would take a long time to recover the price.  

(http://www.spotsinthebox.com/black_sports_editorial/pictures/black_sports0011.jpg)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 12, 2012, 06:36:33 am
I think it will be a couple of years still before the true potential of DSLRs are revealed to professionals. Today people still think that looking at a Canon 5Dmk3 says everything about Nikon D800 image quality, despite that they are very different in the low ISO space. The only DSLR cameras today that competes in the traditional MF space - low ISO with flash - is D800 and D800E.

And even with those you probably need to be a bit of a color management expert to maximize the potential. Sure if you have an old MFDB system with a workflow worked out years ago it will be foolproof, while you probably need to tune the DSLR system quite a bit before achieving desired results. Early adopters with color management expertise will be able to cope with this, others will look at default settings in their favourite raw converter and decide from that alone. I still think MFDB may have a color edge since their color filters does not need to care about high ISO, but it's probably rather small.

When it is about subtle differences mythology will be stuck for some time too. Many will think MFDB is inherently better because that is how it was, and never really compare that much with current gear. Many want MFDB (or DSLR) to be better which also affects all this, there's a lot of psychology to it.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: gerald.d on October 12, 2012, 09:30:47 am
Interesting to see that for the "17 special gigapixel images -- 7,000-megapixel" photos of the prize piece of each museum they chose
to shoot stitching and with 35mm DSLR with motorized heads.
I strongly suspect that the choice to go with 35mm DSLR was either driven by budgetary restrictions or lack of knowledge/experience.

Obviously for that kind of size you have to stitch, but I know for a fact that there are very, very, few people in the world shooting large gigapixels with MF kit. In fact, I may well be the only one.

I have more experience than most when it comes to shooting images of this size, and believe me, nothing can touch creating this scale of images from stitched images from an 80MP back.

Regards,

Gerald.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 12, 2012, 09:55:05 am
I have more experience than most when it comes to shooting images of this size, and believe me, nothing can touch creating this scale of images from stitched images from an 80MP back.

+1

These guys (http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/TreeAFtop.aspx?E=A_2C6NU0BF06HG) also produce large scale stitched images with MF backs regularly
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 12, 2012, 11:36:15 am
OP wrote have 5DII which is indeed a very respected DSLR...

... now to get D800 + 24 tilt/shift ???  which are 3k + 2k = 5k usd... + maybe tempted get more Nikon lenses... and they will devaluate how much before sell ?

I changed systems in past; Nikon > Mamiya > Rollei and more, and each time changing is not only cost but learning curve... and headache selling, ebay, shipping, paypal...

Latest camera is not always best, although media market to sound as such. Buying MFDB back from an agent one can later upgrade at rather reasonable price.

Each to his and her own, I am just saying...

why not simply add a Cambo RC400 with a SK 47... that actually give more focal than mere the 47, because shift...

As I look back at my prior gear, I made three main wrong choices:

1) Nikon F100, I should have gone Mamiya 7, would have had larger slides
2) Nikon D50, D200, it was complete BS all raving of the latest greatest at time on the net, I have some really good images that I really wish had alot better image quality, would have been awesome if I had them from Mamiya 7 or a MFDB instead
3) Mamiya ZD, well that one was a clear lemon with a faulty design

Seems best is to have images with RAW/slides/negative with the highest image quality possible, and that can be better retrieved with newer processing in future...

Even image quality from a Leaf Aptus 22 back on a tech camera with an SK 47 should be a killer quality performer compared to D800 + 24 tilt/shift. Not to mention, less bulk & weight in bag...

Capture Integration has an Aptus 22 back for mere 5k usd... which should not devaluate much...

Not my choice or business, am just saying...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 12, 2012, 01:42:11 pm
OP wrote have 5DII which is indeed a very respected DSLR...

... now to get D800 + 24 tilt/shift ???  which are 3k + 2k = 5k usd... + maybe tempted get more Nikon lenses... and they will devaluate how much before sell ?


Actually if you look at the prices fetched for used Nikon or Canon lenses they are very good.

Just looking today the average selling price for a 24mm PC lens on ebay is about $ 1,700 New $1,990  = 14.5% decrease loss $ 290

Nikon 85mm 1.4g ebay average $ 1,500 new $1,674 = 10.394 % decrease

Nikon lenses come with a 5 year standard warranty, you have to pay extra for MFD extended warranty to match the 5 year Nikon warranty.

In comparrison:

Phase One Mamiya 55mm 4.5 ebay $3,226 new $4,990 = 35.351 % decrease loss $ 1764

Phase ONE 55 Schneider LS lens for 645DF ebay $2,600 new $ 3,990 = 34.837 % decrease loss $ 1,390


Bodies:

Nikon d700 on ebay average $ 1,600  New street price shortly after it came out was $2,700 = 40.741 % decrease loss $ 1,300

Hasselblad H3d 31  ebay $ 5,000  New $ 25,000 = 80.000 % decrease loss is $ 20,000

Schneider APO-DIGITAR 120mm f5.6 Lens with Copal #0  ebay $ 500 new $ 1,700 = 70.588 % decrease loss $1,200


MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

That is good for the used buyer. Buy and sell pretty much at the same price. Bad for the new buyer.

If you consider that Nicky can sell the 5dII easily for $ 1,500 on ebay the upgrade to the d800E only cost $ 1,700.
Peanuts compared to MFD upgrades....

I think Nicky made a very good choice. Camera, water housing, tilt shift and loads of money left over for location photography travel.

Last of all if Nicky decides the D800E is not the right choice, they sell used on ebay for $ 3,000.... the loss is less that it would cost to rent of a short trip.



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Gandalf on October 12, 2012, 02:41:01 pm
You're making your decision before actually trying the alternative? This surprises me given that based on your travel schedule it would be arbitrarily easy for you to spend an afternoon actually shooting pictures with each system.


I have used a Phase One DF. It is, IMO, an overpriced piece of 1990s technology that has little business being on the market. I can also say that I will probably be buying one soon because I am tired of having my nose pressed against the rear glass of a DSLR and I like a viewfinder that is large but at the same time I can see all of it while wearing glasses. Those two pieces of of information will not be found in a spec sheet or published in any review. When playing with a D800 for a few minutes it beats the Phase in every way -- it's lighter but feels more solid, the autofocus is fast (comparatively) and it has more than one focus point. It has lots of useful technology that only Credo and IQ backs have and at 1/10th of the price. But when used for more than 15 min. in a store, there are other differences that emerge, and to Doug's point if you think MFD is a consideration, you owe it to yourself to get your hands on one to see how it fits you.

If you think the image quality from a D800 is good enough for you and your clients, you are probably right. The question becomes, what intangibles are there that maybe should also factor into the buying equation. I'm going through a similar search process right now and I can say that when one system clearly fits your requirements better than the rest, then the choice is easy. However, when looking at the lower end of the MFD market and the higher end of DSLR, the choice is much less clear.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 12, 2012, 02:53:48 pm
Hi,

I would just add that the 47mm on an Aptus 22 is more like 33.6 mm and not the 24 mm the OP asked for. There are of course plenty options on a technical camera.

The OP was discussing Hasselblad H4D and not a technical camera.

I did never use and MFDB on a technical camera with a 47 mm, does it need center filter and has it issues with lens cast?

Best regards
Erik

Actually if you look at the prices fetched for used Nikon or Canon lenses they are very good.

Just looking today the average selling price for a 24mm PC lens on ebay is about $ 1,700 New $1,990  = 14.5% decrease loss $ 290

Nikon 85mm 1.4g ebay average $ 1,500 new $1,674 = 10.394 % decrease

Nikon lenses come with a 5 year standard warranty, you have to pay extra for MFD extended warranty to match the 5 year Nikon warranty.

In comparrison:

Phase One Mamiya 55mm 4.5 ebay $3,226 new $4,990 = 35.351 % decrease loss $ 1764

Phase ONE 55 Schneider LS lens for 645DF ebay $2,600 new $ 3,990 = 34.837 % decrease loss $ 1,390


Bodies:

Nikon d700 on ebay average $ 1,600  New street price shortly after it came out was $2,700 = 40.741 % decrease loss $ 1,300

Hasselblad H3d 31  ebay $ 5,000  New $ 25,000 = 80.000 % decrease loss is $ 20,000

Schneider APO-DIGITAR 120mm f5.6 Lens with Copal #0  ebay $ 500 new $ 1,700 = 70.588 % decrease loss $1,200


MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

That is good for the used buyer. Buy and sell pretty much at the same price. Bad for the new buyer.

If you consider that Nicky can sell the 5dII easily for $ 1,500 on ebay the upgrade to the d800E only cost $ 1,700.
Peanuts compared to MFD upgrades....

I think Nicky made a very good choice. Camera, water housing, tilt shift and loads of money left over for location photography travel.

Last of all if Nicky decides the D800E is not the right choice, they sell used on ebay for $ 3,000.... the loss is less that it would cost to rent of a short trip.




Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 12, 2012, 02:58:16 pm

snip....

MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

snip.


I don't agree.

My outlook is always for the "long term" bottom line.

I bought my p30+ in December 2006.   I got a good deal from CI in atlanta and after 6 years I guess the average costs of the back is a little more than $5,700, not including the tax depreciation.  In rentals we charge, which I am modest on, I know it's rented out for much more than that and if I sold it today a p30+ in Contax mount will go for at least $6,000, because I've been offered more than that.  So bottom line is profit.

The cameras the digital backs go on, my Contax(s) I know I can sell every thing I own for more than I paid, even if I bargain basement sold them to KEH.

The thing is I have no need to sell because they're still viable and I have a rule to not sell anything I couldn't buy back for the same price . . . at least something I use and enjoy, unless I just have to have something better.

Consequently, I have sold over 6 dslr bodies which usually sell for about 1/2 price after 2 1/2 to three years and at the time they averaged about $6,000 per body.  That's $15,000 in depreciation, though really less as we charge rentals on those also (though less than mfd) and of course there is tax amortization.

Still, comparing my mfd and the dslrs, the mfd comes out better in the long term.

Right now our two 1ds3's are due to be replaced.  Our p30+ and Contax I assume I'll get another few years (or more) of use out of them.

I think the OP's original idea of buying one generation back, whether it be a hasselblad, a phase or leaf back is a good idea.  Maybe not future proof in use, but I know he can use them for a long, long time and unless your just a camera buff that has to have the newest and latest, over a few years the costs more than equal out.

As far as repairs, I've had shutters replaced on both my current Canons, one sensor replaced and the total costs has been a little over $2,200.

In regards to my Phase backs, they've had zero repairs and I don't just shoot in studio or under nice easy conditions.

But the real bottom line, especially for an advanced amateur is to use what you like as much as what you can bill out.  If you like it, buy it.  If your trying to save money on the front end, then mfd may not be the best way to go, though after buying just about every type of equipment in my career, I know the equipment that we use long term is the most expensive on the front end, because it was the most professional and in my view more robust.

The second bottom line is the intangibles.  Everyone compares these cameras to cars.  You can buy a new Toyota all juiced out for $38,000, a used Maserati Quattroporte with warranty for about the same or a few grand more and the Toyota is probably more efficient, more full featured, might be more reliable,  but in my view not near as much fun as the Maserati.

Have fun.

IMO

BC


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 12, 2012, 03:05:27 pm
MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

You are missing three important things !

1) A used "low end" back such as Aptus 22 will not devaluate much. It already has done so.

2) You also forgot to consider upgrade path of digital back. With a back for trade in you will stand a better chance to negotiate a better price on a more expensive back... at least per my experience. The dealer will appreciate your return business. Thus is important to buy from an authorized dealer/agent. At least mine in Hong Kong only resell backs that they know the history of, because they want to make sure they sell top notch product to make happy customer. ;)

3) Above 1 & 2 is a way to get into MFDB & tech camera without risk of much money, then to upgrade to a newer back later on.

Used price for gear also depends on market. Selling dslr gear in Asia some five years ago was not a particular winner to me...

"Low end" back may sound basic... but actually the Aptus 22 is a somewhat legendary back with a very good sensor. Aptus 65 cost about same and is one generation newer and same sensor as Aptus 75 but a tad smaller crop of it, which obvious would not matter on a tech camera... I had Aptus 65 prior and can much recommend it to anyone.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 12, 2012, 03:16:37 pm
I would just add that the 47mm on an Aptus 22 is more like 33.6 mm and not the 24 mm the OP asked for. There are of course plenty options on a technical camera.

The OP was discussing Hasselblad H4D and not a technical camera.

47, you are right. the SK 35 would be the focal.

(note Nick and I have spoken about a tech camera outside of this thread - so it's not out of context)

//////////

A reflection is that it is funny how much we all jump in to advise, the choice is very individual... whether dslr or mfdb on whatever camera...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 12, 2012, 04:57:03 pm
I would just add that the 47mm on an Aptus 22 is more like 33.6 mm and not the 24 mm the OP asked for. There are of course plenty options on a technical camera.

The OP was discussing Hasselblad H4D and not a technical camera.

I did never use and MFDB on a technical camera with a 47 mm, does it need center filter and has it issues with lens cast?

The 47 is my favourite landscape lens. There are some issues with lens cast, minor on the Aptus 22 but tech cam users tend to be perfectionists and then you would want to correct it, but there is no significant dynamic range loss. I think the hassle with lens cast and the need of calibration shots is generally exaggerated, the thing is that the tech cam workflow is in its bare form so slow that adding the extra step of shooting a calibration shot is minor. I always make calibration shots and enjoy the automatic fixing of vignetting (which can be a bit of a mess after shift/tilt) and dust spots too.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 12, 2012, 05:32:49 pm
Quote
FredBGG

MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.




You are missing three important things !

1) A used "low end" back such as Aptus 22 will not devaluate much. It already has done so.

2) You also forgot to consider upgrade path of digital back. With a back for trade in you will stand a better chance to negotiate a better price on a more expensive back... at least per my experience. The dealer will appreciate your return business. Thus is important to buy from an authorized dealer/agent. At least mine in Hong Kong only resell backs that they know the history of, because they want to make sure they sell top notch product to make happy customer. ;)

3) Above 1 & 2 is a way to get into MFDB & tech camera without risk of much money, then to upgrade to a newer back later on.

Used price for gear also depends on market. Selling dslr gear in Asia some five years ago was not a particular winner to me...



"Low end" back may sound basic... but actually the Aptus 22 is a somewhat legendary back with a very good sensor. Aptus 65 cost about same and is one generation newer and same sensor as Aptus 75 but a tad smaller crop of it, which obvious would not matter on a tech camera... I had Aptus 65 prior and can much recommend it to anyone.


Actually I think you missed something .....

The next line after what you quoted from me:

Quote
MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

That is good for the used buyer. Buy and sell pretty much at the same price. Bad for the new buyer.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 12, 2012, 06:03:25 pm

I don't agree.

My outlook is always for the "long term" bottom line.

I bought my p30+ in December 2006.   I got a good deal from CI in atlanta and after 6 years I guess the average costs of the back is a little more than $5,700, not including the tax depreciation.  In rentals we charge, which I am modest on, I know it's rented out for much more than that and if I sold it today a p30+ in Contax mount will go for at least $6,000, because I've been offered more than that.  So bottom line is profit.


IF you are using the back commercially in a manner that you can charge the client for rental, if you rent it enough you can make a profit. Buying gold would have been better. ;)
Also you are still talking about an initial investment of over $ 20,000.


BUT for many here that do not shoot in a commercial realm that allows for rental you are talking about a very significant loss.

 
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 12, 2012, 07:48:34 pm
Even image quality from a Leaf Aptus 22 back on a tech camera with an SK 47 should be a killer quality performer compared to D800 + 24 tilt/shift. Not to mention, less bulk & weight in bag...

Capture Integration has an Aptus 22 back for mere 5k usd... which should not devaluate much...

Not my choice or business, am just saying...

Hi Anders,

Could you please provide more details about what you have in mind?

- what components would make up this system: back - Aptus22?, camera, lens,
- how much does each component cost: Back at 5,000 Us$ it seems, how about camera and lens?
- how much does each component weight and how bulky is it?

Finally, have you ever owned the Aptus 22 you are recommending?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 12, 2012, 07:53:17 pm
Consequently, I have sold over 6 dslr bodies which usually sell for about 1/2 price after 2 1/2 to three years and at the time they averaged about $6,000 per body.  That's $15,000 in depreciation, though really less as we charge rentals on those also (though less than mfd) and of course there is tax amortization.

If I may ask, why did you sell these DSLR bodies? My guess is that you sold them because DSLR were still in a phase of their evolution where their performance was not yet at the required level for your applications. This is clearly not the case anymore.

If you can keep a P30+ 6 years, you can also keep a D800 6 years.

Of course, you may have to change the shutter once, but the camera you will be mounting the back onto will also have to be maintained/repaired, probably at a higher cost that the equivalent DSLR.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 12, 2012, 10:48:10 pm
47 mm, does it need center filter and has it issues with lens cast?

Center filter is not needed on 47XL Digitar. Lens casts can be stored for Aptus backs updated with latest GUI, thus ideal for tech camera since you can save lens casts for different shifts and tilts and select them during a shoot rather than make the lens cast for each exposure in field. Suggest to Google.

Could you please provide more details about what you have in mind?

- what components would make up this system: back - Aptus22?, camera, lens,
- how much does each component cost: Back at 5,000 Us$ it seems, how about camera and lens?
- how much does each component weight and how bulky is it?

(note Nick and I have spoken about a tech camera outside of this thread - so it's not out of context)
+ Google ?? (http://www.captureintegration.com/2012/09/28/new-cambo-rc400-1st-usa/)


Finally, have you ever owned the Aptus 22 you are recommending?

Nope, I looked at it years ago and picked Aptus 65 because I preferred one newer generation. I know Aptus 22 is a stellar back, yet it is a generation of back, 22MP @ 48x36mm vs 28MP @ 44x33mm consideration. Frank Doorfhof used Aptus 22 for years. Do a search. The Aptus 22 listed on CI current only have 8000 exposures... my AFi-II 12 is already at 6,500 after less than 18 months...

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 12, 2012, 11:07:23 pm
A summary would be great, you must have an rough idea since you recommended it? Total price, weight and bulk?

Unless I am mistaken, the "cheaper" Cambo (camera at 2,400 US$ - nearly the price of the D800) that you recommended above doesn't offer tilt capability, does it?

What makes you think it is a better solution for landscape work?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 13, 2012, 06:10:25 am
Going in "cheap" tech cam-wise I'd recommend look into Arca-Swiss mf-two, or Linhof Techno. Not needing those expensive calibrated lens mounts makes a difference when you start having 4 - 5 lenses. You'll have to live with ground glass focusing and sliding back though, which some really detest, but I think it is okay although it has its limitations.

It will still be significantly more expensive than a basic D800 system of course, even before you get the digital back, and if you cannot afford the latest backs resolution will not be better. I use it because I like to use tilt/shift in most compositions and find it charming to work with those 100% mechanical cameras.

Another factor is that I appreciate tilt feature very much and since my favourite landscape focal length is ~35mm in 135 terms the lack of lenses in that focal length for DSLR systems is a fat minus. If one's shooting style is such that tilt/shift is not that important I think the tech cam argument falls pretty flat though, unless you can afford 80 megapixels and appreciate that extra resolution.

If you have a tech cam you will most likely need a DSLR system as well (I have a Canon system) to have something when you need the flexibility or do other types of photography, so one needs to come up with some fantastic math to make a tech cam a wise economic investment :). It actually seems to me that perhaps the majority of MF users have a DSLR too, so MF is not something you get to throw out your DSLR but something you get in addition. This is especially true for me as an amateur as I do various types of photography, whatever I find fun and rewarding to do.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 13, 2012, 07:23:38 am
does it need center filter and has it issues with lens cast?
Center filter is not needed on 47XL Digitar.
it depends. At f11 without movements light falloff on a P45 (sensor size = 49.1 x 36.8 mm) is about 0.8 f stops in the corners. With large movements the falloff increases significantly (above 2 stops). You can correct light falloff in software ... but this adds noise, of course. So with large movements a center filter is required ... IMO.

re color cast: this is actually not a characteristic of the lens but the sensor. The same lens shows very different color cast on different sensors.
Actually the term "lens cast" is pretty misleading. It should be called "sensor cast". (Of course there might also be "lens cast"... but the color cast we mostly are referring to with wide angle lenses on DBs is 'sensor cast'. You'll see the same with wide angles for instance on a Leica M9. But software correction of color cast is really a non issue...).


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 13, 2012, 10:12:56 am
If I may ask, why did you sell these DSLR bodies? My guess is that you sold them because DSLR were still in a phase of their evolution where their performance was not yet at the required level for your applications. This is clearly not the case anymore.

If you can keep a P30+ 6 years, you can also keep a D800 6 years.
It's funny.  My assistants all have dslrs.  The latest versions, 5d3's and one has a Nikon D800.  They all use them, but when they're shooting something that they really find important, they ask to use my digital backs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK7OqKm2xac


A summary would be great, you must have an rough idea since you recommended it? Total price, weight and bulk?

Unless I am mistaken, the "cheaper" Cambo (camera at 2,400 US$ - nearly the price of the D800) that you recommended above doesn't offer tilt capability, does it?

What makes you think it is a better solution for landscape work?

In all respect, I am not running a dealership but am mere a shooter who post friendly advises. Thus please Google for further, e.g. forum.getdpi.com is a good source. Each of us need to do our own research to make minds up. Weight wise the RC400 is as low as you can get with shifts on a tech camera, and similar in weight to the Alpa STC but at seems near half its price. Cambo offer their mounts with tilt/shift, while Alpa require a tilt adapter and short lenses. With each system if one get hold of a used lens and have them put it into their mount it is cheaper than buying used lens already in their mount.

What makes you think I am considering tech camera myself, even with my sharp Rollei lenses? My reasons: Quality of image. Methodology for seeing and working an image. Also more pixels @ flat stitching. Shift/tilt and panoramic.

Also an Aptus 22 with a SK Digitar lens will result in very sharp images indeed and with a complete different aesthetic than a D800 with tilt/shift lens. Something I remember from my SLR/DSLR days was also the temptation to add yet another lens... which added weight and cost...

Going in "cheap" tech cam-wise I'd recommend look into Arca-Swiss mf-two, or Linhof Techno. Not needing those expensive calibrated lens mounts makes a difference when you start having 4 - 5 lenses. You'll have to live with ground glass focusing and sliding back though, which some really detest, but I think it is okay although it has its limitations.

It will still be significantly more expensive than a basic D800 system of course, even before you get the digital back, and if you cannot afford the latest backs resolution will not be better. I use it because I like to use tilt/shift in most compositions and find it charming to work with those 100% mechanical cameras.

Arca Swiss requires to look up in a table to set each focus distance. Cambo and Alpa mere requires to set the distance in meter or feet.

Linhof Techno is not a tech camera but view camera. A tech camera even with tilts is far simpler to set up for each shot, and does not require focusing on groundglass.

Cost? Will more lenses be added to D800 system, and that system sold after few years...?

For tech camera, you do not need more than one lens. That is a route I look at myself - one lens. Why? Using the Cambo RC400 as example, you can set it up for single frame shot (movements or no movements), double frame rectangular shot, double frame panoramic shot, each of which yield different field of view.


It actually seems to me that perhaps the majority of MF users have a DSLR too, so MF is not something you get to throw out your DSLR but something you get in addition.

Individual. Depends on what and how one shoot. I personally do not use DSLR and see no point to. DSLRs are way too bulky for what they do and have too many buttons. My Hy6 with one or two lenses fits in a small shoulder bag that is smaller than most DSLR shooters carry  ;D. Same time if we limit to tech cam, perhaps most need something else to also shoot other type of images with...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: torger on October 13, 2012, 11:44:33 am
If one can accept stitching one can indeed reduce the amount of lenses.

I think myself it is a very subtle difference between stitching inside image circle and turning the whole camera on a pano head though, so I don't really appreciate it other than as an emergency solution. Before getting my Techno I was considering 4x5" with a stitching back which I discussed on this forum, but now I'm pleased I went for a one-shot solution, I prefer working that way. But that too is very personal of course.

My shooting style is such that I very often take several images of one composition. If flowing water is involved I may get shoot as much as 15 images or so and then I pick one that has the most pleasing shape of the waves. If it is windy I take a few extra so I can pick out the sharpest. If light is changing quickly I can stand still for quite a while and shoot several and then pick the most pleasing either on site or in post. Stitching is not compatible with this. LCC shots also gets a bit tedious with stitching involved.

View camera lenses are rather light, if at least Schneider Digitar, since there's not much weight added by the mount especially when considering the longer lenses. So if one likes multiple lenses (to have many perspective choices in one shot) like I do it is not too bad. I think most count in view cameras under the "tech camera" umbrella these days, the word has changed meaning. In the view camera days a "technical camera" was referring to some highly specialized camera used for scientific or industrial applications. Today I think most associate it to an MFDB camera that can do movements and accept schneider digitar and rodenstock digaron lenses, but I guess it's no standardized term yet :).

How well lenses keep value is very product specific. Overall I find DSLR lenses keep value relatively well and it is easy to find buyers, there are so many buyers out there in many different segments which helps in getting sane pricing. Large format digital is okay too, but market is small so it can be hard to find a buyer, and for some products the market can go near-dead, like for many Apo-Sironar digital lenses which very few wants since many consider them not sharp enough with today's standards. The same can happen in a few years with some Schneider Digitar products. The next base level resolution for MF is probably going to be 60 megapixel, and say a Schneider 35 XL is not too sexy with that. If MFDBs get CMOS and DSLR-like live view in the next few years I think we may see some interesting effects on the second hand market.

It's like with cars, buy second hand and/or keep for a very long time, that's the most economical way. If you never sell, you never lose any money :). Of course all this is an amateur's way of looking at it, when you are a full-time professional you count in other ways and can accept much higher gear costs, since gear is much cheaper than salary anyway.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 13, 2012, 05:29:27 pm
Since that shoot I did for Phase One and the subsequent video is mentioned, I freely admit I wasn't prepared for it,  or liked the results very much, because we we're all exhausted at the time of taping and we looked and felt like hell.

In fact we edited our own video of the process from production stills, as I thought it was more stylized and showed a more positive view than the Phase One video.  

http://spotsinthebox.com/paris_prod2.mov/

I guess I should clarify my relationship with Phase One or any camera company, so nobody here thinks I'm getting something in return.

#1.  No camera company really sponsors me.  I receive no money, no extraordinary treatment.  

#2  When we shot that image for Phase we were on a very, very heavy schedule and had just finished shooting 18 hour days in Barcelona, then made the overnight drive to our Paris studio and in two days went into production of that session and shot on day 3. We produced the shoot like a commercial job, with ad agency input.  No excuses, just the facts.

My renumeration from Phase one was not and didn't plan to be a profit making endeavor.  Actually less than profit making but that wasn't our studio's goal.

In my personal opinion I like the Phase engineers, wasn't that overwhelmed by the marketing effort, at least in this instance, so when I say how well my phase backs have performed for me, I do so with the opposite view of personal gain or favoritism.

In the few moments I had  Phase One's ear  I gave them my complete unvarnished opinion of what I liked and didn't like about their product, with the biggest issue being the color sensitivity of the files.  

I thought they were way too receptive to ambient color pollution for photographing people and the Phase engineer I spoke to listened and responded in the positive.

In the last two years this has been fixed and we have used our phase backs more and more.   Some of this I can attribute to better processing in C-1, some of it is probably our ability to come to grips with our own post production of the phase files and some processes in photoshop that let's us kill noise at higher isos, without cutting sharpness.

Bottom line is I like the backs, for me the've been the most bullet proof and cost effective equipment our studio owns except for grip.  

Now, Bernard asks if we moved through series 35mm dslrs because of the changing evolution of that format.  The answer to that is of course.  

We've done the same with video cameras, computers, drives, storage, dam systems, software, sound recorders, monitors, etc. etc.,

The only "dated" dslr I've kept was one of my original 1ds 1's, because i believe that camera was ground breaking and I still think the files are the sharpest and offer the best look of any dslr system we've ever used, including later Nikons and Canons.

The only reason we don't use the 1ds1 routinely is it doesn't tether fast or easily.   Ok, we also kept our 5d2, because I don't like the look of the 5d3.  It's just personal preference but I really have issues with the over smooth look of some cameras especially ones with high density sensors.

Now as I've also said for the record I've never used a D800.   I know I'll test it because there are about 4 professionals on this forum whose opinions I really respect, so if it works for them, it might work for us. We have a large Nikon lens set of new and older glass so the costs of a D800 is not high for us.

The main issue I have with 35mm, is when shooting vertical I tend to compose right on the limit.  Maybe it's a mindset from the film days when shooting 35mm we had to shoot tight and I find I shoot 35mm just on the very edge, which doesn't allow for a lot of room.  I know as sensors increase in size and detail this shouldn't effect me, but it does.  Also I'm not that wild about AA filtered cameras.  It's not sharpness, but the grit or something that I really like with non AA filtered CCD cameras and not just medium format.  I see the same look with my M-8 and saw it with our first digital camera the Kodak dcs 760.

Regardless, even if the D800 is the best camera every made, I doubt seriously if I would shoot the bulk of our still work with it because I like what I currently use and since we tether, C-1 is generally recognized as the gold standard in the industry.  My contax and plus backs shoot slow to medium speed, but the beauty is when tethering I never hit a buffer.

But . . . once again I "like" what I use and liking something goes a long way.

I also don't like tethering our Nikons because the camera LCD blanks out.  Not that I need the camera lcd to judge critical focus or look but I do need to check every now and then for composition.

I respect that everyone has different opinions, but what I don't understand why there is such a heated and personal response to what anyone likes or uses to produce a photograph.

IMO

BC

One other thing of note, is I have had amazing service from the Phase dealer (CI) on any support issues and previously when I owned Leaf backs, direct response from Leaf and their representatives.

They both offered professional service for professional equipment.  

And once again . . . no I don't get any deals for saying that.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: uaiomex on October 13, 2012, 05:58:43 pm
How do you produce a hi-rez wide angle non panoramic image with stitching ???
Eduardo
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 13, 2012, 07:04:04 pm
In all respect, I am not running a dealership but am mere a shooter who post friendly advises. Thus please Google for further, e.g. forum.getdpi.com is a good source. Each of us need to do our own research to make minds up. Weight wise the RC400 is as low as you can get with shifts on a tech camera, and similar in weight to the Alpa STC but at seems near half its price. Cambo offer their mounts with tilt/shift, while Alpa require a tilt adapter and short lenses. With each system if one get hold of a used lens and have them put it into their mount it is cheaper than buying used lens already in their mount.

Also an Aptus 22 with a SK Digitar lens will result in very sharp images indeed and with a complete different aesthetic than a D800 with tilt/shift lens. Something I remember from my SLR/DSLR days was also the temptation to add yet another lens... which added weight and cost...

Cost? Will more lenses be added to D800 system, and that system sold after few years...?

For tech camera, you do not need more than one lens. That is a route I look at myself - one lens. Why? Using the Cambo RC400 as example, you can set it up for single frame shot (movements or no movements), double frame rectangular shot, double frame panoramic shot, each of which yield different field of view.

Individual. Depends on what and how one shoot. I personally do not use DSLR and see no point to. DSLRs are way too bulky for what they do and have too many buttons. My Hy6 with one or two lenses fits in a small shoulder bag that is smaller than most DSLR shooters carry  ;D. Same time if we limit to tech cam, perhaps most need something else to also shoot other type of images with...

Respectfully, here are a few friendly questions then:

- why claim that the Cambo + Aptus 22 will offer a completely different aesthetic than the D800 + T/S lens when you have not shot with either of them?
- more generally speaking, why comment on DSLR image quality when you have not shot any since the Nikon D200... announced 7 years ago?
- why compared the cost of a MF system with one lens to that of a DSLR with several lenses?
- why claim that DSLRs have a shorter life span than MFDB when yourself have been using 3 different backs in the last 6 years (if my memory serves me well Mamiya ZD, Leaf 65 and now 12)?
- why call a D800 bulky when it is 1 full kg lighter and overall has the same size as the Afi you shoot with (but lenses are more compact)?

Leaf Afi: 2,180 kg (including standard lens), 157 x 112 x 78 without lens
http://www.cameracollection.net/leafafi-iispecification

Nikon D800: 1,185 kg (including standard lens), 146 x 123 x 81.5 without lens
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d800/spec.htm

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 13, 2012, 07:06:33 pm
How do you produce a hi-rez wide angle non panoramic image with stitching ???
Eduardo

You do multi-row stitching with a dedicated pano head and use a planar projection method.

I have done the excercice a few times, comparing a single 24mm image with one shot with a 60mm lens + stitching.

If you overlap the 2 images at the end (after downsampling the stitched one of course), you end up with a slight difference... which corresponds roughly to the distorsion of the 24mm lens.  ;)

One example of the technique described above:

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2471/3855182251_decd7c8691_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: uaiomex on October 13, 2012, 08:42:09 pm
Thanks Bernard. I thought it was not possible. Only you don't get a wide (most anything in focus.) angle effect. You rather end with a Brenizen effect.
Eduardo
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 13, 2012, 10:33:40 pm
Thanks Bernard. I thought it was not possible. Only you don't get a wide (most anything in focus.) angle effect. You rather end with a Brenizen effect.
Eduardo

Well, it depends on the focal length you use to stitch. This is shot with a 100mm lens.

Stitching creates a virtual large sensor, so depending on the number of frames you get something closer to a 4x5 look.

You can of course combine this with DoF stacking if you need more DoF or stitch with a T/S lens (works better for single row).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 13, 2012, 11:24:25 pm
....

Individual. Depends on what and how one shoot. I personally do not use DSLR and see no point to. DSLRs are way too bulky for what they do and have too many buttons. My Hy6 with one or two lenses fits in a small shoulder bag that is smaller than most DSLR shooters carry  . Same time if we limit to tech cam, perhaps most need something else to also shoot other type of images with...



I have some bad news for you. Medium format cameras that have one lens, an automatic moving mirror and shoot digital are DSLR cameras.

Digital Single Lens Reflex

 ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 12:49:15 am
Hi,

That is quite true. But it's like the term "American" it means US, not Canada or Mexico.

Joke aside, Anders has presented an economical alternative to a low end MF SLR with an MFDB. Cambo + preowned Aptus 22 and an Schneider Digitar of suitable length.

I don't know if such a combo outperforms a Nikon D800. It may or may not. I have not seen comparable shots. Digital imaging is complicated as sharpening is a part of the digital workflow.

I also think that it is much about the way we use a camera. I guess that it is not very practical to shoot handheld with a technical camera. On the other hand it is very much possible to put a DSLR on tripod and work deliberately using live view. The live view option has the advantage that you don't need to look trough the viewfinder.

Actually, I much prefer zooms. Often I find only one position giving the view I want. It may not be practical to walk forward or go back. With a zoom I can often stand in the only possible point and make the crop in the camera.

I often put a DSLR on the tripod waiting for the light while shooting handheld with another DSLR. Later that day I may shoot some mule deer with at 400 mm to finish of by taking stills/movie of an osprey in his/her nest with 800 mm. The example comes Grand Teton NP.

The week I was in Grand Teton NP there were a lot of wildfires and seeing was very bad. Not much to do about, just trying to make the best of it.

As a side note I guess I have a couple of thousands images published on SmugMug, essentially all in full resolution. I have seen very few samples of MFD images published in full resolution.

The enclosed images are not intended the excellence of the DSLR used just to illustrate the variety of pictures I was making. That day most of the shooting was on Sony Alpha 77, an APS-C camera, although I also shot a full frame DSLR. Why?

- The full frame camera doesn't have live view
- The APS-C camera can record video
- Image quality between the two is close APS-C camera is three years younger
- Seeing was not very good because smog from wildfires the small sharpness advantage of the full frame would be wasted

Best regards
Erik



I have some bad news for you. Medium format cameras that have one lens, an automatic moving mirror and shoot digital are DSLR cameras.

Digital Single Lens Reflex

 ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 14, 2012, 01:31:57 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK7OqKm2xac

Typical marketing bull shit.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 03:55:36 am
Hi,

James Russel explained about the Phase One video and has also published a much better video about the event.

I share that marketing materials are not very relevant in this discussion.

The way I see it, there was much discussion about the purported advantages of MF but very little evidence in form of any meaningful pictures were given. Neither image quality, DR, sharpness or any relevant parameter can be judged from small jpeg images. The problem is by the way not JPEG-ness but smallness.

The discussion included references to usable comparison images, by Alex Koskolov, "TAshley" and others, but for some reason any real stuff shown is just simply ignored by the most opinionated contributors.

I'm in a business where the golden rule is that you need to learn from mistakes, it is much preferable to learn from mistakes committed by others than making your own mistakes. Using a foundation of existing experience is basically a good thing.

Without doubt, there are advantages with larger sensors. The main advantage is that they may collect more photons. A larger format also makes less demand on the lens. A technical camera with movements obviously offers Scheimpflug on all lenses, but it is certainly not a system for all users. Our contributor "bcooter" also known as James Russel loves MFD but uses on his Contax and Phase cameras, I never heard he shoots Cambo or Alpa. I would love to have an Alpa and an IQ180, but it is highly improbable I will ever have one, I have different priorities.

Different photographers have different needs. Four years ago Sony, Canon and Nikon introduced 20+ MP cameras that could compete with MFD. The best of the crop, Nikon D3X, with a price tag that was almost horrible in the DSLR market. With the D800 Nikon improved image quality a pair of notches and introduced a professional quality device at a very reasonable price.

It has been suggested that MFD equipment is made by much better precision than DSLRs. I don't think it is necessarily true. Large scale production needs good tolerances to be efficient. Simply enough, a very large part of the production needs to be within tolerances. DSLRs are supposed to work with f/1.4 lenses. To maintain focus with an f/1.4 lens you need twice the precision compared with an f/2.8 lens. Nikon and Canon would not be able to sell many of those 85/1.4 lenses if they could not be focused correctly.

Joseph Holmes wrote two lengthy articles about precision and the lack thereof in MF. Now, that was in 2009 and we now have 2012. So, everything got so much better in three years? What Joseph Holmes has found that about 2/3 of the MF equipment he and his students got into their hands was outside tolerances. That applied mainly to second hand and rented equipment. Phase One is said to have a factory tolerance of 15 microns but a few of the backs he encountered were 120 microns off. What Joseph Holmes found are facts. Why should we ignore them. Equally worrying Joseph Holmes found that many lenses were clearly substandard, not even close to published MTF data. That essentially means that you need to test every peace of equipment. Many of the issues would not show up if you shoot at f/22 and stopping down to f/22 may not be a horrible sin, but shooting f/22 is still throwing away much info.

Best regards
Erik


Typical marketing bull shit.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 04:25:29 am
Hi,

Shoot with a longer focal length.

1) Turn camera vertical
2) Shoot three exposures with twice the focal length
3) Merge using rectilinear

I used this technique often instead of cropping an image. If you shoot a 24 MP DSLR the above technique will yield about 54 MP and correspond to a 36x54 mm sensor regarding DoF. The camera will collect the same number of photons as a camera with 36x54 mm sensor.

Best regards
Erik


How do you produce a hi-rez wide angle non panoramic image with stitching ???
Eduardo
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 14, 2012, 04:45:19 am
Typical marketing bull shit.


If you live in a glass house... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7doq5Vshw&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 06:11:31 am
YaYa,

Good catch!

Well I would say that it would be marketing bullshit if this discussion was about bags. But it is not about bags.

Now, I have great respect for James Russels opinion, and I have every reason that he talks about his experience.

In other contexts he said that perhaps 90% of the shooting he does is with Canon, mostly because Canon needs less light, and lighting equipment is cumbersome.

Actually, I have great respect for everyone's opinion, yours included. On the other hand, I must honestly say that the sample images I have seen indicate that the Nikon is a champ in the 30-50 MP area. Not necessarily the only champ, but nevertheless a champ.

And, horses for the courses, of course!

Best regards
Erik




If you live in a glass house... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7doq5Vshw&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 14, 2012, 06:33:35 am
And, horses for the courses, of course!
You could have saved us 7 pages of (mostly) pointless debating... ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 14, 2012, 06:52:07 am

snip

In other contexts he said that perhaps 90% of the shooting he does is with Canon, mostly because Canon needs less light, and lighting equipment is cumbersome.

snip

Erik




Erik,

Actually, the reason we've shot the last few years so much with the smaller dslrs is because all of our projects require motion imagery and it was easier to use higher iso 35mm cameras than the phase backs.

Also client pressure requires a great deal of sessions per day.

This year we've somewhat reverted back and the last 5 projects have been 90% or more with the mfd.

Our next project is in three U.S. cities and two European markets and we won't even carry a Nikon.  We will take one small set of Canons for any session that requires faster focus, but the majority of stills will be shot with mfd and HMI's.

This is my choice for a few reasons.  First to somewhat slow down the production and shoot more thoughtful imagery.  Of course we can slow down a 35mm camera, but I've grown a little tired of digital cameras and my Contax are much more analog in operation.

Also there really is no reason to give a client 125 frames when we can get it in 15 or 20.  Another is I'm zoned in on the Contax and our lens selections and like the look.  Thirdly, as I've mentioned we have found ways to shoot up to 800 iso on our backs, kill noise and still keep detail.

The fourth reason is, we've seen a huge uptick in post production requirements, with additional layers, backgrounds and effects.  In my opinion the mfd files just hold up better and work deeper.  Many here will argue that point but though I can respect their opinion, all I have to go on is my personal experience.

What I strongly suggest to someone new to various formats is rather than shooting test charts or reading second party interviews is to shoot multiple cameras under pressure in the exact situation you work.  We have done this a lot and learned a great deal in the process.

Yair,

It will never save 7 pages as this debate will rage on forever.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 09:37:44 am
BC,

Thanks for making things clear.

Nothing beats experience. I got the impression that you worked with Canons mostly, but times are obviously changing.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. A problem is that experience is hard to explain.

We perhaps are a bit to much preoccupied with sharpness. I was a couple of days ago pondering about the Hartblei lenses. They are based on Zeiss designs. Diglloyd has tested those lenses (on a DSLR) and says that they have 'a lovely character'. The MTF curves indicate that the lenses are not that impressive but the results are very nice.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

Actually, the reason we've shot the last few years so much with the smaller dslrs is because all of our projects require motion imagery and it was easier to use higher iso 35mm cameras than the phase backs.

Also client pressure requires a great deal of sessions per day.

This year we've somewhat reverted back and the last 5 projects have been 90% or more with the mfd.

Our next project is in three U.S. cities and two European markets and we won't even carry a Nikon.  We will take one small set of Canons for any session that requires faster focus, but the majority of stills will be shot with mfd and HMI's.

This is my choice for a few reasons.  First to somewhat slow down the production and shoot more thoughtful imagery.  Of course we can slow down a 35mm camera, but I've grown a little tired of digital cameras and my Contax are much more analog in operation.

Also there really is no reason to give a client 125 frames when we can get it in 15 or 20.  Another is I'm zoned in on the Contax and our lens selections and like the look.  Thirdly, as I've mentioned we have found ways to shoot up to 800 iso on our backs, kill noise and still keep detail.

The fourth reason is, we've seen a huge uptick in post production requirements, with additional layers, backgrounds and effects.  In my opinion the mfd files just hold up better and work deeper.  Many here will argue that point but though I can respect their opinion, all I have to go on is my personal experience.

What I strongly suggest to someone new to various formats is rather than shooting test charts or reading second party interviews is to shoot multiple cameras under pressure in the exact situation you work.  We have done this a lot and learned a great deal in the process.

Yair,

It will never save 7 pages as this debate will rage on forever.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 14, 2012, 10:56:31 am
You could have saved us 7 pages of (mostly) pointless debating... ;)

You may try to dismiss all the discussion as pointless debating, but it isn't.

The OP for one found it very interesting and helped Nicky make a decision.

The truth of the matter is that it does not take much today with the products available to
show someone that they don't necessarily need MFD and that the investment is no longer necessary.
One just has to put the pictures side by side. What makes these discussions so effective
is that a picture is worth a 1,000 words.
A side by side comparison puts straight all the marketing and the BS that goes with it.

While the worlds biggest companies pay very close attention to blogs, forums and discussion
you prefer to just call it pointless discussion...... that is not an indication of being with the times.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 14, 2012, 11:23:04 am
......

The fourth reason is, we've seen a huge uptick in post production requirements, with additional layers, backgrounds and effects.  In my opinion the mfd files just hold up better and work deeper.  Many here will argue that point but though I can respect their opinion, all I have to go on is my personal experience.

......


You bring up and interesting point. I shot for many years with Canon's and you are right that MFD files from phase and Hasselblad were more robust.
However the D800 sensor is a game changer. The files are far different to what I get out of my Canons. Regarding post work I am getting better green screen stills for example.

I would not go as far to say that D800 could replace your Contax/MFDB combo, but you would get more of what you get out of that combo in your 35mm DSLR work where you decide to use 35mm DSLR or mobility and speed. That said I worked on some Canon 1DX files and they were a notch above other Canon files. Significantly better high midtone to shadow transitions on skin.


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 14, 2012, 11:32:14 am
This is only partially relevant to the discussion, but, here goes.  I am having a hard time with the D800 color, especially in mixed light, with caucasian skin.  It can usually be fixed in PS with a few layers.  However, each image, under almost identical natural light, requires different adjustments.  When shooting objects outside, the color is OK, needs some separation and desat in the yellows and reds, but really an easy fix in C1.

I went back through the Drobos and pulled a bunch of old files from various backs.  Pushed through C1, the D800e files are on par with the Aptus 75s, 54s, P30+, when shooting under natural light.  The backs look better color wise with Caucasian skin.  This is of course without much post after its a TIFF.  I suspect this is down to the profiles.

So, you D800 guys and gals, what profiles and raw converters are you using?  The C1 profile is not working for me.  Creating my own profile wasn't working for me either.  I tried TIFF Neutral and DNG Neutral and frankly, its a much better starting place that the Digital Elf consumer colors from the D800 Generic Profile.  Now that I think about it, when DS2 came out, it was awful.  Later profiles were much better, much less time in post.

I've had some very good results, like scanned negative film, from this camera, but not of people, and not without extensive post.  In fact, the time I spend on a D800 file of a caucasian isn't much less than I would spend scanning film.  Any suggestions are welcome and please no holy war.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 14, 2012, 11:58:58 am
This is only partially relevant to the discussion, but, here goes.  I am having a hard time with the D800 color, especially in mixed light, with caucasian skin.  It can usually be fixed in PS with a few layers.  However, each image, under almost identical natural light, requires different adjustments.  When shooting objects outside, the color is OK, needs some separation and desat in the yellows and reds, but really an easy fix in C1.

I went back through the Drobos and pulled a bunch of old files from various backs.  Pushed through C1, the D800e files are on par with the Aptus 75s, 54s, P30+, when shooting under natural light.  The backs look better color wise with Caucasian skin.  This is of course without much post after its a TIFF.  I suspect this is down to the profiles.

So, you D800 guys and gals, what profiles and raw converters are you using?  The C1 profile is not working for me.  Creating my own profile wasn't working for me either.  I tried TIFF Neutral and DNG Neutral and frankly, its a much better starting place that the Digital Elf consumer colors from the D800 Generic Profile.  Now that I think about it, when DS2 came out, it was awful.  Later profiles were much better, much less time in post.

I've had some very good results, like scanned negative film, from this camera, but not of people, and not without extensive post.  In fact, the time I spend on a D800 file of a caucasian isn't much less than I would spend scanning film.  Any suggestions are welcome and please no holy war.

Have you tried using a UV/IR block filter.
I find it improves skin rendition when shooting with hot lights and hot lights/strobe.
However I found that this helps with digital backs too.
I also find that it helps make skin makeup look more like it does to the naked eye.

Hot lights and flash can do really weird stuff to makup, even very light makeup.
I've seen some strange results on red carpets and runway.
Video looks perfect... stills show strange effects on powder at times.

Can you post and example showing the problem you have. Skin tones are very subjective. Better to see what you mean.
I always use camera neutral profiles.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 14, 2012, 12:01:12 pm
a picture is worth a 1,000 words
+1
Quote
While the worlds biggest companies pay very close attention to blogs, forums and discussion
you prefer to just call it pointless discussion...... that is not an indication of being with the times.
Not seen any big camera companies here lately...
Quote
You bring up and interesting point. I shot for many years with Canon's and you are right that MFD files from phase and Hasselblad were more robust.
Just 10 posts earlier you called it "Typical marketing BS"...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 14, 2012, 12:23:10 pm
I'll post some samples.  I have do kid stuff this afternoon.

T
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 14, 2012, 12:32:42 pm
Thirdly, as I've mentioned we have found ways to shoot up to 800 iso on our backs, kill noise and still keep detail.

Bcooter, I'm really interested in this - could you share a little on the shooting MFDB at higher ISO?  Is that a lighting/exposure technique or some kind of post work or noise software?

I am having a hard time with the D800 color, especially in mixed light, with caucasian skin. 

TMARK,  That's my experience too.  One of the biggest differences between Aptus 12 and D800E that I saw was color.  Different colors but also flatter or more homogenous on the D800E.  I also used C1 and they only have the one color profile.  We shot in studio with profoto strobes.


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 02:57:14 pm
Hi,

One aspect does not preclude another, IMHO ;-)

Erik

Pretty much par for the course. A preoccupation with image qualities rather than quality images.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 03:46:29 pm
Hi,

Let's put it this way, I try to be a polite person, so I refrain to comment on some images I see. I wouldn't say that my images are worthwhile, I hope some are but I'm not the person to judge.

I certainly don't produce images like BC, I'm much impressed by the samples he shows.

As a side note, I actually don't think that equipment matters that much. My view is simply that most equipment is good enough.Sure enough, better equipment in knowledgeable hands can make for superior results. Most folks have limited amount to spend, so buying decent stuff at reasonable price may be important.

I'm most thankful for your contributions to these forums. They used to be good ones served with a slice of humor.

Best regards
Erik

Agreed, but on reading these threads one could be forgiven for thinking it does ;-)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 04:18:40 pm
Hi,

It seems that TMARK found out that it is a profile issue in C1. The problem goes away in LR 4.2, but the results are bit flat.

There are some indications that the problem may be caused by a weak IR filter on the Nikon. Marc McCalmont has some indications about that.

You recall we discussed the test shots by Alex Koskolov? I checked out his color checker shots and found that the Hassy shot was significantly more saturated. Kicking up saturation about 7 units in LR 4.2 may make look the images more similar as far as I can recall.

Just to point out, with LR 4.2 default rendering both images were over saturated, but the Hasselblad image was more oversaturated.

Best regards
Erik

TMARK,  That's my experience too.  One of the biggest differences between Aptus 12 and D800E that I saw was color.  Different colors but also flatter or more homogenous on the D800E.  I also used C1 and they only have the one color profile.  We shot in studio with profoto strobes.



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 14, 2012, 05:12:42 pm
In fact we edited our own video of the process from production stills, as I thought it was more stylized and showed a more positive view than the Phase One video.  

http://spotsinthebox.com/paris_prod2.mov/

Both are great videos, the P1 speaks more of the back...

Likewise good to take a refresher look on your website, much very respectful work, as I recall from a few years back.  :)


Respectfully, here are a few friendly questions then:

- why claim that the Cambo + Aptus 22 will offer a completely different aesthetic than the D800 + T/S lens when you have not shot with either of them?
- more generally speaking, why comment on DSLR image quality when you have not shot any since the Nikon D200... announced 7 years ago?
- why compared the cost of a MF system with one lens to that of a DSLR with several lenses?
- why claim that DSLRs have a shorter life span than MFDB when yourself have been using 3 different backs in the last 6 years (if my memory serves me well Mamiya ZD, Leaf 65 and now 12)?
- why call a D800 bulky when it is 1 full kg lighter and overall has the same size as the Afi you shoot with (but lenses are more compact)?

Leaf Afi: 2,180 kg (including standard lens), 157 x 112 x 78 without lens
http://www.cameracollection.net/leafafi-iispecification

Nikon D800: 1,185 kg (including standard lens), 146 x 123 x 81.5 without lens
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d800/spec.htm

Puh! See no point in being asked like this to defend my experience, learnings and suggestions... I made a suggestion, either you like it or not.

You are comparing a Rolleiflex Schneider Xenotar 80/2.8 PQS to a 50mm Nikon lens??? FWIW I had both 50/1.8 and 50/1.4 during my SLR days and found them unimpressive. The 80/2.8 Xenotar on other hand is sharp wide open and with a wonderful character, and is flat the best lens I have ever owned. So you compare your Toyota to my BMW... Also weight wise you hold the cameras different and D800 may also include MB and a heavy zoom lens. Albeit if we compare D800 + 24 tilt/shift, the Cambo RS400 is the likely the lesser weight... And your point? Mine: MFDB is not as heavy as most people think.

Regards to my change of MFDBs. Is this relevant??? :o Here;
1. ZD had faulty design and was a clear no go.
2. Aptus 65 was stellar, 3.5+ years
3. AFi-II 12 was much change of camera system when selling off nearly all of five systems and stepping from a low end to a high end back (financed by selling gear). In combo with changing mount due I was fed up with issues with Mamiya AFDIII system.
James Russel still uses his P30+. Why should I as amateur not be content with the 80MP for at least 6 years when I find it as capable as I do in regards to colors and fine gradation of tones and more?

Now I have replied a number of your questions which I frank did not find worthwhile. Can we politely be content and leave it at that?

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2471/3855182251_decd7c8691_o.jpg)

Allow me also point out regarding above image, that - at least to my eyes - I do not like the colors and there is something in the character of the image quality I find lacking compared to what MFDB is capable. That is per my experience from ZD, Aptus 65 and AFi-II 12. Yes, your image have shallow DOF, but there is something that makes it still look DSLR like to my eye. It is nothing wrong with it, simply I personally value the file quality in pictures from larger formats. Part are the Dalsa sensors of MFDBs - which I like, parts also the different formats etc. Like BC says you can also really push MFDB files, and that is even more true for the latest backs. You may not agree, which is alright since I understand you are happy with your tool.  ;).

@ Fred,

Nice try  ;), SLR contain single lens + mirror + prism. My Hy6 have WLF, no prism.  ;D

The truth of the matter is that it does not take much today with the products available to
show someone that they don't necessarily need MFD and that the investment is no longer necessary.
One just has to put the pictures side by side.

Perhaps you do not value the differences, which is fine. Let me put it in another way, you value your Fuji. What is wrong then with letting talented photographers in digital step into MFDB then? They too may wish to use a tool they find equally more impressive in digital.

Notably my experience is that there is plain no marketing BS from any MFDB companies, compared to for DSLRs. Heck general public appear of mind that Nikon and Canon equals that you have a camera that can take good pictures, per marketing BS. In contrast in all my dealings with MFDB I really do not feel I have felt sold anything more than informed correctly. Instead I have been given chance to demo and use equipment to see with my own eyes if it was for me and worthwhile for me. Politely speaking what you constant write against MFDB makes no whatsoever sense, is wrong and is very misleading to many people.


Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 14, 2012, 05:58:05 pm
Hi,

It seems that TMARK found out that it is a profile issue in C1. The problem goes away in LR 4.2, but the results are bit flat.

There are some indications that the problem may be caused by a weak IR filter on the Nikon. Marc McCalmont has some indications about that.

You recall we discussed the test shots by Alex Koskolov? I checked out his color checker shots and found that the Hassy shot was significantly more saturated. Kicking up saturation about 7 units in LR 4.2 may make look the images more similar as far as I can recall.

Just to point out, with LR 4.2 default rendering both images were over saturated, but the Hasselblad image was more oversaturated.

Best regards
Erik



Erik,
With all respect my comment and TMARK's had to do with skin color and not a color checker which is an entirely different thing.  
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 06:00:34 pm
Nice try Anders but you happen to be wrong. SLR means Single Lens Reflex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-lens_reflex_camera#History

Admittedly most SLRs now days use pentaprism.

Best regards
Erik


Nice try  ;), SLR contain single lens + mirror + prism. My Hy6 have WLF, no prism.  ;D


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: TMARK on October 14, 2012, 09:27:00 pm
It was the profile in C1. Using a DNG standard profile in C1 results in a neutral, somewhat desat file. LR 4.2, either Adobe Standard or Camera Neutral works well.  Why the D800 profile in C1 is so bad is beyond me. Maybe it is corrupt, because I don't remember it being SO off.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2012, 11:36:08 pm
Hi Eric,

Yes I am aware of that. But analyzing color rendition with the tools of the trade may help understanding some of the issues. I'm very much aware that human vision system can recognize several million colors and the color checker has just 24, but if you cannot reproduce those 24 you won't be able to reproduce the remaining million colors either.

I'd also say that the CC tells us how much each raw converter oversaturates on each camera.

The over saturation is intentional. Correct reproduction of color is boring. So it is quite normal that both saturation and midtones are pushed a bit when rendering raw files. I'm a bit surprised that color saturation differs between Hasselblad and Nikon so much in LR, I would expected saturation to be the same.

As far as I understand you are doing a lot repro work, and I presume that keeping colors correct is important for your work. I assume that you use different saturation settings on repro and landscape?

Best regards
Erik



Erik,
With all respect my comment and TMARK's had to do with skin color and not a color checker which is an entirely different thing.  

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 14, 2012, 11:49:43 pm

@ Fred,

Nice try  ;), SLR contain single lens + mirror + prism. My Hy6 have WLF, no prism.  ;D


Best regards,
Anders


Before you shoot your mouth off you might want to do some research. ::)

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolleiflex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolleiflex)

Rollie made many TLR and SLR cameras. Most without a prism.

You might also want to look here too:

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/rolleiflex-slr.html (http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/rolleiflex-slr.html)

While you claim your camera is not an SLR, the manufacturer says it is......  ::)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 12:10:27 am
Quote
You bring up and interesting point. I shot for many years with Canon's and you are right that MFD files from phase and Hasselblad were more robust.
+1Not seen any big camera companies here lately...Just 10 posts earlier you called it "Typical marketing BS"...

I was referring to the monologue about how the photographer says he does everything to see if he can break a camera and that he could not break
or get a Phase One to freeze or fail. We all know the DF has issues. But for Yaya's sake I'll be more precise in the future.

I'd file that video under Fiction along with quite a few others from Phase One.

Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be)

The video shows a Phase One guy shooting moving action with strobe and WIDE OPEN
with fast focus. Yet the very manual of that cameras states that you need to shoot at f8 in order to achieve focus
with fast focus.

From page 99 of the pdf manual.

Quote
C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)[/quore]



The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more.
No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2012, 12:37:46 am
Hi,

I looked at the video.

It's an obvious advantage of leaf shutters that you can use flash to balance daylight.

Regarding focusing, stopping down doesn't help focus, it just masks defocus.

A you tube video will not demonstrate sharpness, anyway.

Best regards
Erik



I was referring to the monologue about how the photographer says he does everything to see if he can break a camera and that he could not break
or get a Phase One to freeze or fail. We all know the DF has issues. But for Yaya's sake I'll be more precise in the future.

I'd file that video under Fiction along with quite a few others from Phase One.

Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be)

The video shows a Phase One guy shooting moving action with strobe and WIDE OPEN
with fast focus. Yet the very manual of that cameras states that you need to shoot at f8 in order to achieve focus
with fast focus.

From page 99 of the pdf manual.

Quote
C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)[/quore]



The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more.
No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 15, 2012, 01:20:27 am
I was referring to the monologue about how the photographer says he does everything to see if he can break a camera and that he could not break
or get a Phase One to freeze or fail. We all know the DF has issues. But for Yaya's sake I'll be more precise in the future.

I'd file that video under Fiction along with quite a few others from Phase One.

FWIW BC shoots Contax and in the video he talks about his Phase backs. But as usual you found a way to turn it around...
Where would you file your Tamrac video?

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 15, 2012, 03:09:50 am
Nice try Anders but you happen to be wrong. SLR means Single Lens Reflex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-lens_reflex_camera#History

Admittedly most SLRs now days use pentaprism.

Best regards
Erik


Before you shoot your mouth off you might want to do some research. ::)

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolleiflex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolleiflex)

Rollie made many TLR and SLR cameras. Most without a prism.

You might also want to look here too:

http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/rolleiflex-slr.html (http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/rolleiflex-slr.html)

While you claim your camera is not an SLR, the manufacturer says it is......  ::)

Not quite... better to say "tad muddy waters" :D... Admittedly Hy6, Hassy H, Mamiya DF are all SLR type cameras but not quite SLRs...  by same Wikipedia "A single-lens reflex (SLR) camera is a camera that typically uses a mirror and prism system (hence "reflex", from the mirror's reflection) that permits the photographer to view through the lens and hence see exactly what will be captured". By that definition, with WLF gets muddier... but still SLR type... though not an SLR...

More common used the term refers to a mirror prism camera by the 35mm system, and a DSLR refers to such digital version. No idea what then the Sony A99 should accurate be called to confuse  :D..., and water gets muddier or clearer with the Leica S and Mamiya ZD camera which are DSLR form factor but larger formats. ;D
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 15, 2012, 03:48:42 am
Isnip......
I'd file that video under Fiction along with quite a few others from Phase One.
.....snip


Whoa Fred.

Your pulling on a rope and I don't think you know what it's tied to.

I don't know you and your motives may be pure, might not, but I made mine very clear.

For the record, Phase and prior to that Leaf (when I had an Aptus) never asked, insinuated, implied, made mention of me saying anything false . . . ever.

In fact they we're very clear that what they wanted was the user experience and I think that's what I said then and now.

Once again, for the record the reason I didn't like Phase's video was I wanted a day for myself and our crew to rest and feel a little better as we came off of a lot of weeks of 18 hour days and I know I couldn't think straight, I doubt if anyone else could either.  Everyone wants to make the best presentation in public.

Regardless no one asked me to use a Phase/Mamiya body and knew what camera bodies I used.

(http://spotsinthebox.com/paris_contax_floor.jpg)

In regards to tethering c1 has been the gold standard for a long time.  V3 was so solid that we could set it up, capturing to either two drives or a raid 5 and just leave it alone.  Honestly, the only time we touched it was to change the naming.

V4 was new had some issues but were fixed, v5 bullet proof again.

I've found in our case if we want to tether without issue we use clean computers, clean drives and prepare the cameras accordingly with polishing the contacts, making sure all batteries are fresh and new, etc. etc.

People I know that routinely have issues with tethering of any brand usually have some other issues (see my sentence above) and/or don't really know the systems they use.  

Actually, if you want to know anything about Mamiya, Phase or Leaf,  just ask Yair.  I've known him for 8 years, sometimes we've agreed, sometimes we've both strongly disagreed, but Yair is well respected in the industry on both sides of the Atlantic and  will not tell you anything but the truth as he knows it and he knows a lot.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 12:09:24 pm
Not quite... better to say "tad muddy waters" :D... Admittedly Hy6, Hassy H, Mamiya DF are all SLR type cameras but not quite SLRs...  by same Wikipedia "A single-lens reflex (SLR) camera is a camera that typically uses a mirror and prism system (hence "reflex", from the mirror's reflection) that permits the photographer to view through the lens and hence see exactly what will be captured". By that definition, with WLF gets muddier... but still SLR type... though not an SLR...

More common used the term refers to a mirror prism camera by the 35mm system, and a DSLR refers to such digital version. No idea what then the Sony A99 should accurate be called to confuse  :D..., and water gets muddier or clearer with the Leica S and Mamiya ZD camera which are DSLR form factor but larger formats. ;D

This is really getting funny.....
The manufacturer calls the Hy6 an SLR, but you think you
 know better.
It doesn't get more childish than that.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 12:28:36 pm
If you live in a glass house... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7doq5Vshw&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

What exactly do you mean by "If you live in a glass house".

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 12:56:24 pm
Hi,

I looked at the video.

It's an obvious advantage of leaf shutters that you can use flash to balance daylight.

Regarding focusing, stopping down doesn't help focus, it just masks defocus.

A you tube video will not demonstrate sharpness, anyway.

Best regards
Erik




TITLE OF THE VIDEO: "Shooting with auto focus"

From the video "I will be showing off the speed of focus" "f2.8 to keep our focus shallow"
"and we are trying to get a complete series of images all in focus of the processes coming off this boat"

but I repeat: the manual says:

From page 99 of the pdf manual.

Quote
C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)[/quore]

This is a clear case of marketing bullshit. It is clearly put together to miss lead a potential DF
user to believe that it can accurately focus a situation like this at f2.8.

I have owned both the Phase One DF and AF and I can confirm that neither are up to the task
shown in this video.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2012, 12:56:47 pm
Hi,

What I intended to say is more that what is in front, beneath and behind the camera matters more than the camera itself.

Another observation is that it seems that smaller format cameras are considered OK for serious work. The micro 4/3 system gets a lot of respect those day, respect the original 4/3 system never got. I guess that respect comes from the micro 4/3 being smaller but also from sensor improvements.

A couple of years ago, Michael Reichmann compared a Canon G10 with a P45+ back on Hasselblad. He presented the picture in Super A3 size to seasoned experts in imaging and they could by and large not tell the images apart. To me that indicates that the G10 was good enough. Sometimes I shoot with my Sony RX100, sometimes with my Alpha 77 SLT and sometimes with Alpha 900. Whatever I shoot I'm pretty confident the images will be OK.

What I have found is that for street shooting I use the Alpha 77 SLT. It's pretty small and so is the 16-80/3.5-4.5 lens. The Alpha 900 with the 24-70/2.8 zoom is much more intimidating. For telephoto work a small sensor pitch camera may be preferable and I more often than not use live view at 1:1 for focusing.

Obviously, I would not use the RX100 for long range tele photo work, nor does it have an ultra wide angle, but when the other cameras are not at hand it does a decent job.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, virtually all of the equipment we discuss here is more than good enough, dependent on purpose. However I do believe equipment choice is crucial to the individual. Most photographers using MFD do so out of choice rather than necessity.

My own choices are naturally based on my own preferences, namely the form factor, the format - 4:3, I hate shooting one format and cropping to another - the viewfinders, the simplicity - an almost analogue experience - and of course the quality of the files. I've no doubt the D800 is an accomplished camera and I make no claims of superiority for my own equipment. This isn't a competition, although at times one could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

I wish you good shooting.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2012, 01:43:04 pm
Another version of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

Best regards
Erik


What exactly do you mean by "If you live in a glass house".


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 15, 2012, 01:44:49 pm
What exactly do you mean by "If you live in a glass house".

http://youtu.be/jW3j_KXufPE (http://youtu.be/jW3j_KXufPE)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 01:54:05 pm
A couple of years ago, Michael Reichmann compared a Canon G10 with a P45+ back on Hasselblad. He presented the picture in Super A3 size to seasoned experts in imaging and they could by and large not tell the images apart.
at print size none of the "experts" could see that the H2/P45 capture was pretty badly focussed and therefore the most dominant features of the H2/P45 photo were quite soft.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
JPGs at 100%: http://files.luminous-landscape.com/downloads/
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 02:00:16 pm
Another version of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

Best regards
Erik



Oh so now I am sinning in that little Tamrac video........ do you mind pointing out what sin I am committing?

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2012, 02:04:56 pm
Hi,

Thanks for pointing that out. It really shows that humans are prone to mistakes.

What I'd suggest it also shows that it is easy to miss critical focus and some errors pass unnoticed in reasonable sized prints.

Best regards
Erik


at print size none of the "experts" could see that the H2/P45 capture was pretty badly focussed and therefore the most dominant features of the H2/P45 photo were quite soft.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
JPGs at 100%: http://files.luminous-landscape.com/downloads/

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 02:08:33 pm
Quote
A couple of years ago, Michael Reichmann compared a Canon G10 with a P45+ back on Hasselblad. He presented the picture in Super A3 size to seasoned experts in imaging and they could by and large not tell the images apart.

at print size none of the "experts" could see that the H2/P45 capture was pretty badly focussed and therefore the most dominant features of the H2/P45 photo were quite soft.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
JPGs at 100%: http://files.luminous-landscape.com/downloads/


Slight focusing shift in this shot does not really make any difference... the subject has a lot of depth.

However it is also a scene that does not requite much dynamic range. I'm sure that a shot with more extreme lighting differences
would have shown an advantage for the Hasselblad.

But we have gone a long way since.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 02:10:46 pm
What I'd suggest it also shows that it is easy to miss critical focus and some errors pass unnoticed in reasonable sized prints.
It also shows that you shouldn't put too much trust in internet reports ;-)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 02:19:39 pm
Slight focusing shift in this shot does not really make any difference... the subject has a lot of depth.
actually you would expect focus either on the red leaves or on the big trunk in the foreground. But focus is way behind the trunk in the foreground ... and at the same time DOF is not wide enough to draw the trees in the backgorund sharp. Focus is somewhere on the yellow leaves in the center ... but these are soft (due to wind/movement in conjunction with 1'' shutter). There are some thin branches on the very edges that are "sharp" ... all the rest is soft.
And, yes, it makes a huge difference to the perception of "sharpness" in a print.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2012, 02:29:45 pm
Hi,

I don't think so. I have downloaded the images myself, and still missed it. Would I have made the experiment myself, I would perhaps missed it. Michael has encouraged us to print the images our selves, I didn't do it.

I made several experiments with prints, and differences that are very obvious on screen can be difficult to see in print.

http://www.pbase.com/ekr/image/107619976/original  (actual pixels with 12MP uprezzed to 24MP)

http://www.pbase.com/ekr/image/107823207/original   (A2 prints rescanned on flatbed at 300PPI)

Best regards
Erik

It also shows that you shouldn't put too much trust in internet reports ;-)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 06:12:56 pm

Whoa Fred.

Your pulling on a rope and I don't think you know what it's tied to.

I don't know you and your motives may be pure, might not, but I made mine very clear.

For the record, Phase and prior to that Leaf (when I had an Aptus) never asked, insinuated, implied, made mention of me saying anything false . . . ever.

In fact they we're very clear that what they wanted was the user experience and I think that's what I said then and now.

Once again, for the record the reason I didn't like Phase's video was I wanted a day for myself and our crew to rest and feel a little better as we came off of a lot of weeks of 18 hour days and I know I couldn't think straight, I doubt if anyone else could either.  Everyone wants to make the best presentation in public.

Regardless no one asked me to use a Phase/Mamiya body and knew what camera bodies I used.

(http://spotsinthebox.com/paris_contax_floor.jpg)

In regards to tethering c1 has been the gold standard for a long time.  V3 was so solid that we could set it up, capturing to either two drives or a raid 5 and just leave it alone.  Honestly, the only time we touched it was to change the naming.

V4 was new had some issues but were fixed, v5 bullet proof again.

I've found in our case if we want to tether without issue we use clean computers, clean drives and prepare the cameras accordingly with polishing the contacts, making sure all batteries are fresh and new, etc. etc.

People I know that routinely have issues with tethering of any brand usually have some other issues (see my sentence above) and/or don't really know the systems they use.  

Actually, if you want to know anything about Mamiya, Phase or Leaf,  just ask Yair.  I've known him for 8 years, sometimes we've agreed, sometimes we've both strongly disagreed, but Yair is well respected in the industry on both sides of the Atlantic and  will not tell you anything but the truth as he knows it and he knows a lot.

IMO

BC

My use of the word Fiction is directed at Phase One, not directly what you say. The editing probably has a lot to do with it.

First of all the video Starts on a close up of the P45+. That would imply that it was used for the shoot, but a P30+
was used.

There is no mention of the name of the camera and the the logo of the Contax is conveniently blacked out. (not saying it was necessarily deliberate)

You say in the video that when you get a new camera you put it to the test..."try to break it"

"Before I put a camera on set I test it and try to break it I do everything I can.."

then later in the edit

"I have the Phase one because it doesn't break"

the edit then concludes with the line....

"It's impossible to work with cameras that don't work, the Phase works, it's just that simple."

It seems pretty clear to me that the video is skewered by the edit to make people believe that Phase Cameras
are bullet proof, while the camera you use is a Contax. All this while the AFD and DF have known stability and reliability issues.

While you are referring to the back as that is what you use from Phase, there is nothing in the video to indicate that you are talking about the Phase Back and not Phase camera.
No mention of the Contax, not even a mention of the fact that Phase supports Contax compatability.

To make my motives clear. It's about the miss leading information put out by MF manufactures.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 15, 2012, 06:15:57 pm
This is really getting funny.....
The manufacturer calls the Hy6 an SLR, but you think you know better.
It doesn't get more childish than that.

Really ?

So Wikipedia must be wrong. I see...

Seems you are making friends with many people ...  ;)

(As a mere parenthesis, it appears you do not know digital since have not able produce one single quality digital image to measure up to your film shots. Right? or care to show?  ::) )

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 15, 2012, 06:52:18 pm
My use of the word Fiction is directed at Phase One, not directly what you say. The editing probably has a lot to do with it.

First of all the video Starts on a close up of the P45+. That would imply that it was used for the shoot, but a P30+
was used.

There is no mention of the name of the camera and the the logo of the Contax is conveniently blacked out. (not saying it was necessarily deliberate)

You say in the video that when you get a new camera you put it to the test..."try to break it"

"Before I put a camera on set I test it and try to break it I do everything I can.."

then later in the edit

"I have the Phase one because it doesn't break"

the edit then concludes with the line....

"It's impossible to work with cameras that don't work, the Phase works, it's just that simple."

It seems pretty clear to me that the video is skewered by the edit to make people believe that Phase Cameras
are bullet proof
, while the camera you use is a Contax. All this while the AFD and DF have known stability and reliability issues.

While you are referring to the back as that is what you use from Phase, there is nothing in the video to indicate that you are talking about the Phase Back and not Phase camera.

No mention of the Contax, not even a mention of the fact that Phase supports Contax compatability.

To make my motives clear. It's about the miss leading information put out by MF manufactures.

When the Russel campaign was shot there was no "Phase One Camera".

The YouTube video as linked in this thread was re-uploaded in 2010 when Phase One switched video-management systems to YouTube.  
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 07:08:31 pm
differences that are very obvious on screen can be difficult to see in print.
difficult maybe... but not impossible for a trained eye, I think. In my experience the relation of image components to each other (color to color, gradation, sharpness, smoothness etc.) can be translated from real pixels viewed at 100% or 50% on screen to the respective print to some extend. Naturally a print looks different to a screen view... but if the processing chain is done right it's only the difference of 94 DPI (or whatever resolution of the screen) to 300 DPI (or 360 DPI or whatever resolution of the printer). Normally I can estimate how a capture (a digital file viewed on a screen that is) will look printed - at least this goes for my preferred printing paper in conjunction with the sharpening technique I prefer.
Anyway... a defocused MFD capture will always look like a super sized POS capture ... also in print. An accurately focused MFD capture makes the difference.
I do have the very same DB (P45) and when I saw Michael's capture made for that comparission I thought, okay, if this what you get from your P45, I'd prefer the G10. Because it's easier to use. But the capture is simply nowhere near of what a P45 is capable of.

With regard to the discussion in this thread... I've looked at some D800e RAW files available on the web and actually I am not impressed with regard to sharpness/details or so. I get that from my P45 all the time, even with my not so great lenses. I'd say the D800e is somehere in between my P21+ and my P45. But what really impresses me, however, is that you can push the D800e files at base ISO by 2, even 3 stops in the shadows without even having to think about applying any (luminance-) noise reduction. That is more or less impossible with my P45. Okay, I am comparing a 2005 DB to a 2012 DSLR. But still ... the D800e files I've seen look extremely good when pushed hard in post.
Then again... other than DR... they do not look nearly as nice (subjective perception !!! ) as the P45 captures with my lenses (Contax Zeiss, Digitars, Digarons). They look a bit more washed out (soft/dull) in image areas where I think the P45 would draw finer details/color differentiation.  I am only talking about what I am seeing in the files. I really don't care whether or not a D800 or a Sony RX100 outperforms my P45 - I really don't care at all!
(and BTW... as a side note... I've also seen D800e captures suffering either from a tilted sensor or a misaligned lense ... so welcome to the world of high res imaging and warm greetings to J. Holmes ;-) ... ).


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 07:22:41 pm
It seems pretty clear to me that the video is skewered by the edit to make people believe that Phase Cameras are bullet proof, while the camera you use is a Contax. All this while the AFD and DF have known stability and reliability issues.
Come on... this is childish BS. Essentially BC is really only talking about the P-backs, not about cameras at all...
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 07:27:41 pm
Hi Doug - how are you?
Hope things are ging well ...

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 15, 2012, 07:33:25 pm
Hi Doug - how are you?
Hope things are ging well ...

Quite well, thanks. My move to New York has been very rewarding personally and professionally.

Sorry I didn't see you this year at Photokina - I assume you went; I had to man the fort back home. But next time...

Hope you're well!
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 07:51:29 pm
Quite well, thanks. My move to New York has been very rewarding personally and professionally.
good to hear!

Sorry I didn't see you this year at Photokina - I assume you went; I had to man the fort back home. But next time...
also wasn't there. I was on production in Spain.
Yes... looking forward meeting you on the next Photokina!!

Quote
Hope you're well!
hmh... too much work. But basically everything is fine :-) Thanks!


Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 08:14:13 pm
When the Russel campaign was shot there was no "Phase One Camera".

The YouTube video as linked in this thread was re-uploaded in 2010 when Phase One switched video-management systems to YouTube.  

Well well that's interesting especially in light of Phase One's description of the video on the youtube site:

"Phase One camera system: http://www.phaseone.com
Watch professional photographer James Russell working with the Phase One camera system on a photo shooting for Phase One."

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8186/8092084162_319fac7e65_b.jpg)

This was written and uploaded after both the Phase One AF was available and the DF was introduced.... blacked out Contax logo.... no mention of Contax

That's miss leading in my book.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Nick-T on October 15, 2012, 08:19:58 pm
The question is not "Does he use Phase?" because he does.. the question is what camera bag does he use?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7doq5Vshw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 08:26:13 pm
Well well that's interesting especially in light of Phase One's description of the video on the youtube site
There is nothing "interesting"... unless you are a po-faced petty bourgeois.
Do yourself a favour and stop this debate. BC is honest ... always has been.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 08:30:45 pm
There is nothing "interesting"... unless you are a po-faced petty bourgeois.
Do yourself a favour and stop this debate. BC is honest ... always has been.

Don't get me wrong BC from what I can see is BC is honest and a very good photographer.

I wonder if he noticed the description they used on the youtube page. It was uploaded and the description was made by PhaseOneDK.

They are effectively using the video of him as a testimonial for the Camera System in that description.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 08:38:42 pm
They are effectively using the video of him as a testimonial for the camera system in that description.

who cares?
That's the nature (or at least one side) of advertisement...
That's the world (of communication) we live in... so what?!

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 08:42:05 pm
who cares?
That's the nature (or at least one side) of advertisement...
That's the world (of communication) we live in... so what?!



Who cares? maybe some of those people that bought the DF and found it flaky.
Plenty of people complain about it.

Regarding advertising..... there are a few rules to consider....  ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: tho_mas on October 15, 2012, 08:46:03 pm
Who cares? maybe some of those people that bought the DF and found it flaky.
Plenty of people complain about it.
First: BC has absolutely NOTHING to dos with this!
Secondly: who cares :-) Buy a Contax :-)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2012, 09:34:59 pm
Hi,

The sample I posted on PBase really astonished me. When I looked at the stuff on screen there was an incredible advantage to the larger file, but on the print it was nil. I showed the prints to a friend who was working at a pro lab and he could not tell them apart.

I never said that the thing Joseph Holmes have seen were not relevant to DSLRs. This has been indicated by Diglloyd quite a few times. When the OP decided to go for Nikon I pointed out the need to test everything. Nikon is known to having had problems with one of the AF-sensors being off on the D800. Thom Hogan has discussed this at length. Calibration is done with an 50/1.4 lens and process takes an hour as far as I recall.

As I said, I think the problem is less with DSLRs, simply because they are built to work with f/1.4 lenses. An f/1.4 lens needs twice the precision that f/2.8 lens has. As Diglloyd has pointed out, hanging a DSLR from your shoulders with a 300/2.8 is probably not beneficial to alignment of sensor and lens.

The other factor making Joseph Holmes observations important is that many buyers would use pre owned or rental equipment. If you read Joseph Holmes articles you will find that about two thirds of the samples he had seen had issues. The indication was that Phase backs coming from the factory were probably OK. Several of the lenses were bad, also Schneider and Rodenstock lenses coming from the factory.

Lens Rentals writes much about lenses. It seems that there is a lot of variation in lenses but really bad lenses are few. One interesting observation is that they test all lenses before shipping. They used to have manual inspection but since perhaps a year they are using Imatest. They have observed that lemons do pass trough visual inspection but show up in Imatest.

Once I tested mirror vibration. I made a series of shots with:

- Camera on tripod using Mirror Lock UP (MLU) and no AntiShake (AS)
- Camera on tripod no MLU no AS
- Camera on tripod no MLU and AS
- Camera hand held, no MLU and AS

These shots were done with a 200/2.8 zoom at medium apertures with exposures between 1/15 and 1/125.

To my surprise all the shots were sharp! The tripod/MLU shots were not sharper than free hand shots. Then I measured my test shots with Imatest. Imatest clearly showed that I lost half the sharpness on the non MLU shots. After seeing the numbers I went back to the screen and had a second look. After knowing the numerical difference I could see the difference on screen! I don't recall the camera I used, but I guess that it was a Sony Alpha 700 at 12 MP. Not using MLU made that camera into a 3 MP (half resolution squared) camera and I missed that at actual pixels. The experiment made me critical about relying on the eyes and religious about MLU.

Best regards
Erik

difficult maybe... but not impossible for a trained eye, I think. In my experience the relation of image components to each other (color to color, gradation, sharpness, smoothness etc.) can be translated from real pixels viewed at 100% or 50% on screen to the respective print to some extend. Naturally a print looks different to a screen view... but if the processing chain is done right it's only the difference of 94 DPI (or whatever resolution of the screen) to 300 DPI (or 360 DPI or whatever resolution of the printer). Normally I can estimate how a capture (a digital file viewed on a screen that is) will look printed - at least this goes for my preferred printing paper in conjunction with the sharpening technique I prefer.
Anyway... a defocused MFD capture will always look like a super sized POS capture ... also in print. An accurately focused MFD capture makes the difference.
I do have the very same DB (P45) and when I saw Michael's capture made for that comparission I thought, okay, if this what you get from your P45, I'd prefer the G10. Because it's easier to use. But the capture is simply nowhere near of what a P45 is capable of.

With regard to the discussion in this thread... I've looked at some D800e RAW files available on the web and actually I am not impressed with regard to sharpness/details or so. I get that from my P45 all the time, even with my not so great lenses. I'd say the D800e is somehere in between my P21+ and my P45. But what really impresses me, however, is that you can push the D800e files at base ISO by 2, even 3 stops in the shadows without even having to think about applying any (luminance-) noise reduction. That is more or less impossible with my P45. Okay, I am comparing a 2005 DB to a 2012 DSLR. But still ... the D800e files I've seen look extremely good when pushed hard in post.
Then again... other than DR... they do not look nearly as nice (subjective perception !!! ) as the P45 captures with my lenses (Contax Zeiss, Digitars, Digarons). They look a bit more washed out (soft/dull) in image areas where I think the P45 would draw finer details/color differentiation.  I am only talking about what I am seeing in the files. I really don't care whether or not a D800 or a Sony RX100 outperforms my P45 - I really don't care at all!
(and BTW... as a side note... I've also seen D800e captures suffering either from a tilted sensor or a misaligned lense ... so welcome to the world of high res imaging and warm greetings to J. Holmes ;-) ... ).



Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 15, 2012, 11:38:06 pm
The other factor making Joseph Holmes observations important is that many buyers would use pre owned or rental equipment. If you read Joseph Holmes articles you will find that about two thirds of the samples he had seen had issues. The indication was that Phase backs coming from the factory were probably OK. Several of the lenses were bad, also Schneider and Rodenstock lenses coming from the factory.

Interesting point.

Reminds me of a post I made a while ago about a so called interdependent lens test on the Mamiya USA website.
Hasselblad vs Mamiya lenses..... so nothing to do with MF vs35mm DSLR.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1054836  (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1054836)

The Hasselblad lenses were randomly picked out from a rental house while the Mamiya lenses came of the shelf at Mamiya USA. ::)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 16, 2012, 12:57:08 am
Hi,

I actually don't think that sample variations are to bad. Lens rentals does a lot of lens test as they test all outgoing lenses. There is significant sample variation but true lemons are rare. Zeiss lenses also seem to have less sample variation than Canon and Nikon.

So I don't think that Mamiya was cheating to much. I had little views on the test, except the test being done at full aperture with a projector. I think that is a standard method of assembly check out for lenses and a good method to see if the lenses are within tolerances, but lenses are mostly not used at full aperture. So in a sense the tests were not relevant.

On the other hand, if we look at the old photodo tests Mamiya lenses clearly outperformed Hasselblad's lenses according to the Photodo criteria for grading. One interesting aspect of those tests was that they were done at the Hasselblad factory by Hasselblad personnel using Hasselblad's MTF equipment. Especially Mamiya 7 was excellent.

Now, a single set of MTF data does not make for a complete description of a lens. It is a good indication of sharpness. Lens designers use MTF extensively. One of the issues with MTF that the curves say little about out of focus images, what we call bokeh. Lens designers produce large amount of MTF data with different focus.

Another observation is that MTF is not always comparable. Some MTF data is based on white light and another set may be based on monochrome light. Some MTF data is coming from lens design calculations and some are just invented by Sony's marketing department.

The Photodo tests were made in white light, and they are consistent with data published by Zeiss and Hasselblad.

I had a discussion on another thread with Stefan Steib, the man behind Hartblei in Germany. Hartblei uses Zeiss lenses in their TS designs. One of the lenses they use is the Zeiss 120/4. According to both Photodo and Hasselblad data that lens has not very high MTF. Diglloyd tested that lens on a Nikon D3X and found that it needed to be stopped down to f/11 but the image was really lovely, the only lens that he considered to be better was the 100/2 Macro Planar, another Zeiss design.

Now a lens that needs to be stopped down to f/11 will never be as sharp as one that peaks at f/5.6. A lens diffraction limited at f/5.6 is essentially twice as good as one that peaks at f/11 (Yes, this is oversimplification!). Why? Because diffraction, which limits a diffraction limited lens, is half as much at f/5.6 than at f/11. But there are other factors than sharpness playing a role. A third factor is that sharpening plays a major role in the digital work flow. A lens that sharpens well may be preferable to a lens that is inherently sharp but does not respond well to sharpening. This is just a guess, but it is feasible. I assume that sharpening assumes that PSF (Point Spread Function) is either a disc or a gaussian. A lens that renders a point as a disc or gaussian would respond better to sharpening than one that renders a point as a small delta wing.

Lens designers can do little about diffraction. A very badly designed aperture may cause some extra diffraction, but diffraction is essentially a property of light and only affected by aperture.

Best regards
Erik


Interesting point.

Reminds me of a post I made a while ago about a so called interdependent lens test on the Mamiya USA website.
Hasselblad vs Mamiya lenses..... so nothing to do with MF vs35mm DSLR.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fredmiranda.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic%2F1054836&ei=vs58UL2aIYfMigKG94DgDw&usg=AFQjCNELOqoKgaGfkuKiEj9kv3s-XhQcbg  (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fredmiranda.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic%2F1054836&ei=vs58UL2aIYfMigKG94DgDw&usg=AFQjCNELOqoKgaGfkuKiEj9kv3s-XhQcbg)

The Hasselblad lenses were randomly picked out from a rental house while the Mamiya lenses came of the shelf at Mamiya USA. ::)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 16, 2012, 05:20:20 am
"Phase One camera system: http://www.phaseone.com
Watch professional photographer James Russell working with the Phase One camera system on a photo shooting for Phase One."

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8186/8092084162_319fac7e65_b.jpg)

This was written and uploaded after both the Phase One AF was available and the DF was introduced.... blacked out Contax logo.... no mention of Contax

The P45+ is mere a introductory framing into the video... Intelligent people look at what is in the video rather than whine   ;D

0:39 into the video shows clearly he uses P30+ back.

Because Contax is blacked out, it is not shown what camera he uses.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 16, 2012, 05:36:20 am
The question is not "Does he use Phase?" because he does.. the question is what camera bag does he use?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7doq5Vshw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Notably the Fuji GX680 per Wikepedia weights around 4kg... Dang, that is a heavy studio camera to carry in mere shoulder bags...

Any reports of photographers purchasing these bags and filing law suit for back pains?

Personally I use Tenba PBP per recommendation ca. 2002 of a photographer on Nikoninans. Sure many said Tamrac and Lowepro, but this one gent said his Tenba was the best piece of photographic equipment he had used and had been with him on many international travels. I now witness the precise same, it is the best piece of photographic gear I use and has helped me carry gear with comfort and trips worldwide, including a round the world journey. I tested out high end Tamrac backpack in shop at time by test loading it, and what a difference, with Tenba I could carry much more weight and more in comfort. I used to have back pain when younger, but over ten years none due to carrying camera gear, thanks to my Tenba.  ;D

Look he does it on Vimeo as well http://vimeo.com/23989310 --- It seems as false marketing.  ;D
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 16, 2012, 02:27:42 pm
Notably the Fuji GX680 per Wikepedia weights around 4kg... Dang, that is a heavy studio camera to carry in mere shoulder bags...

Any reports of photographers purchasing these bags and filing law suit for back pains?

Personally I use Tenba PBP per recommendation ca. 2002 of a photographer on Nikoninans. Sure many said Tamrac and Lowepro, but this one gent said his Tenba was the best piece of photographic equipment he had used and had been with him on many international travels. I now witness the precise same, it is the best piece of photographic gear I use and has helped me carry gear with comfort and trips worldwide, including a round the world journey. I tested out high end Tamrac backpack in shop at time by test loading it, and what a difference, with Tenba I could carry much more weight and more in comfort. I used to have back pain when younger, but over ten years none due to carrying camera gear, thanks to my Tenba.  ;D

Look he does it on Vimeo as well http://vimeo.com/23989310 --- It seems as false marketing.  ;D


What do you mean by he does it on vimeo???? You make it sound like I'm posting the video left right and center. For your information I'm not, it was posted by Tamrac.
Also I don't see why you are accusing me of false marketing. Exactly what claims am I making in the video? Seems to me that all I'm saying is that I happened to choose a Tamrac back in the day and had them for 10 years or so. I also say that if I go back to get another I would get a Tamrac. It's actually quite a logical choice because I have a few Tamracs and it's really handy to stay with the same ones because the inside dividers are more interchangeable than mixing brands.

Do I at any point in the video say that the Tamrac bags are superior to any thing else?.... NO.
Do I make medical claims? NO.
Did I make any claims that the Tamrac bag makes it easier to carry my Fuji's.... NO.
Did Tamrac pay me? No. However I did get a call a month or so later saying that they liked the video and asked me if I could use another bag.
I took up the offer and popped over to their show room in Chatsworth that's actually not far from my house in the Santa Monica mountains.
I have to say it was a real treat to spread my camera gear over the table and play with a bunch of bags..... sort of like a kid with wood blocks.
Well if you think that with that they bought me off your wrong..... While the free bag was a nice and both appreciated and welcomed gift it was about 1/4 of my rate in studio
for the extra time we took to do the video shots and interview.

Derek, the young still photographer and videographer that shot the video was very pleasant and it was a pleasure to facilitate his work.

What do I think about Tenba and Lowepro? I think they are excellent. Tamrac, Tenba and Lowepro.. all good stuff.

And for a full disclosure...

Oh and just in case it comes out in the future I also have an autographed tripod that was given to me by Lino Manfrotto as a souvenier after he invited me and
another photographer for a weekend to the mountains in Italy for some fine food and pick our brains and exchange ideas.

I was sponsored by Polaroid for many years... free 8x10 Polaroid film for any editorial I shot... and I shot many.
I did along with Donna Fashion magazine let polaroid use a photo I shot for the magazine for an ad in a pro photography magazine, in the same issue I was on the cover of.
If I recall correctly I made no technical claims in that add. Just my name and the photo I think.

I did a few lighting workshops (2 or 3) for Elinchrom and got a free flash tube from them when I broke one a few days after a demo.

let's see... did I miss anything??

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on October 16, 2012, 04:08:18 pm
Anders HK and Fred, as much as I respect one and I'm bored by the other, you should keep your little fight to yourself or to PM.

The D800e is great, a P65 on a tech cam as well, no need to discuss choices of bags, or cameras.

Let good photographers make their decisions and thats it. I hope.
 
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 16, 2012, 04:22:30 pm
Anders HK and Fred, as much as I respect one and I'm bored by the other, you should keep your little fight to yourself or to PM.

The D800e is great, a P65 on a tech cam as well, no need to discuss choices of bags, or cameras.

Let good photographers make their decisions and thats it. I hope.
 

I did try the PM route, but got no reply...... tell you what.... I'll just not respond to him on the forum.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 16, 2012, 04:53:14 pm
I did try the PM route, but got no reply...... tell you what.... I'll just not respond to him on the forum.

Hmm... this???

His email:
« Sent to: Anders_HK on: October 14, 2012, 11:37:47 PM »
Look here mr "I know everything" about MF."


Anders HK and Fred, as much as I respect one and I'm bored by the other, you should keep your little fight to yourself or to PM.

The D800e is great, a P65 on a tech cam as well, no need to discuss choices of bags, or cameras.
 

Any gear that works well for anyone IS great  :)

The annoying is when someone constant post wrong facts due lack of knowledge of e.g. MFDBs. Big deal? Annoying because misinforms? Annoying to those who use the tool to produce images and tries to inform frank of it?

It would be nice, if we all could maintain respect, and base on facts of actual insights and knowledge collected by actual use of gear discussed, such as we have actually made quality images with. That includes any tool, as compared to mere posting of Googling that after one long read of text in links does not concur with the info that the one who posted link wrote or implied...


Let good photographers make their decisions and thats it. I hope.
 

Much agreed. It does not matter what we shoot, use to shoot with or prefer, as long as respect and not constant argue against a gear. Same goes for constant sticking up, look here mine is about same as yours. Very silly...

I believe it is about the image, and encouraging photographers to learn more of experiences. That can help to advance in photography with tools that can spur us to our photography. That was no difference in film days as it is now. A larger format, or different format or camera can encourage your vision. Years ago when I posted on dpreview that I was selling my Nikon D200 and going medium format digital, Thom Hogan posted that I would be better off spending money taking a course in Photoshop. Complete BS. Going into medium format digital was the right decision for me and has really helped me learn and advance in photography. That does not mean we are all same. For some dslr is the best tool, it is all individual, is it not?

Anders
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 16, 2012, 05:45:53 pm
Seeing as you decided to post what was sent to you as a personal message in response to one of your postings I feel I need to follow up on the above posting.

I sent you that message after you posted a reply pretty much saying I don't know what I'm on about regarding the correct deffinition of SLR, even when I showed you that the Hy6 is an SLR according the the manufacturer. You still claimed I was wrong... and consequently the manufacturer DHW Fototechnik is also wrong.

Screen shot of the manufacturers website.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8189/8095091912_228784f530_c.jpg)

BH website:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8054/8095139839_4538e6737d_b.jpg)

Mamiya press release:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8049/8095165725_4086df60d7_b.jpg)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 16, 2012, 05:53:04 pm
Oh dear. My post was above (#165).

End of story.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 16, 2012, 06:01:54 pm
It is so great to see DHW has a website up!  For so long they had only a place holder.  I'm a total fan boy, but their cameras are fantastic!  Their marketing... not so great. 
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 16, 2012, 06:03:04 pm
It would be nice, if we all could maintain respect, and base on facts of actual insights and knowledge collected by actual use of gear discussed, such as we have actually made quality images with.

Frankly, this is hilarious.  ??? ;D ???

You have been doing exactly the opposite in this whole thread by:
- Recommending MF equipment you have never used (Cambo, Aptus 22,...) for applications you don't seem to be that experienced with (grand landscape),
- Commenting negatively about DSLRs cameras you have never used (D800,...),
- Commenting negatively about shooting techniques you have little experience with (stitching).

Note that I am not commenting about equipment at all here, I am only commenting about your behavior Anders.

As a final request to you, could you please let us know what pseudo you are using when posting on DPreview? We could perhaps have more fun by reading that as well?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 16, 2012, 06:16:40 pm
Frankly, this is hilarious.  ??? ;D ???

You have been doing exactly the opposite in this whole thread by:
- Recommending MF equipment you have never used (Cambo, Aptus 22,...) for applications you don't seem to be that experienced with (grand landscape),
- Commenting negatively about DSLRs cameras you have never used (D800,...),
- Commenting negatively about shooting techniques you have little experience with (stitching).

Note that I am not commenting about equipment at all here, I am only commenting about your behavior Anders.

As a final request to you, could you please let us know what pseudo you are using when posting on DPreview? We could perhaps have more fun by reading that as well?

Cheers,
Bernard


Suggest you slow your horses...

- I looked really careful at Aptus 22 along with Aptus 65 when I went with Aptus 65.
- I near went with tech cam and will still head that route, have looked in detail at the systems for long time.
- Nope, I do not look negative on D800. Sounds like a great DSLR and for DLSR very high image quality.
- Nope, I do not look down on your stitching, but am of view that tech cam is higher image quality route. We may disagree, is ok :)

My Anders_HK is since number of year not valid on dpreview...

Above valuable to this thread ???
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 16, 2012, 06:26:07 pm
It is so great to see DHW has a website up!  For so long they had only a place holder.  I'm a total fan boy, but their cameras are fantastic!  Their marketing... not so great. 


Give that gem of a camera a sensor with cmos style live view and focusing off the sensor and I would be standing right beside you drooling ;) Many nice things about that camera.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 16, 2012, 06:34:22 pm
- Nope, I do not look negative on D800. Sounds like a great DSLR and for DLSR very high image quality.
- Nope, I do not look down on your stitching, but am of view that tech cam is higher image quality route. We may disagree, is ok :)

Just taking one more of those many examples you are offering us to read in every single of your posts...

According to your own recommendation of speaking from experience... how can you comment that the D800 is great "for a DSLR", implying that it is not as great as other types of cameras, when you have not used one yourself?

You may want to try to answer these 2 simple questions
- "How do you know that?"
- "Why need to spend all that time convincing the world of something you cannot reasonably know about since you have never used the damn camera?"

Don't do it for me, just do it for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 16, 2012, 06:38:21 pm
Just taking one more of those many examples you are offering us to read in every single of your posts...

According to your own recommendation of speaking from experience... how can you comment that the D800 is great "for a DSLR", implying that it is not as great as other types of cameras, when you have not used one yourself?

You may want to try to answer these 2 simple questions
- "How do you know that?"
- "Why need to spend all that time convincing the world of something you cannot reasonably know about since you have never used the damn camera?"

Don't do it for me, just do it for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard


I could ask you exact same of what you post.

Suggest we both give each other some slack.  ;)

Likewise appreciate if you not ask more and more to pull deeper... simply good if we can leave at respect.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 16, 2012, 11:51:36 pm
Hi,

It's OK to be a fan boy, sometimes ;-)

My understanding is that there is a long story about the survival of DHW, the folks working there have taken great risks and given up much.

Best regards
Erik

It is so great to see DHW has a website up!  For so long they had only a place holder.  I'm a total fan boy, but their cameras are fantastic!  Their marketing... not so great. 

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 17, 2012, 01:15:14 am
Hi,

I guess that this is good advice to a few of us posting on this thread.

I would add that Anders recommendation of the Cambo + Aptus combination seems to be a reasonable one, weather he actually did use it or not.

I'm not a Nikon fanboy. But I can read, I can see pixels, now how to print, do some testing myself. From my horizon the Nikon D800/D800E makes a lot of sense. The performance of the Nikon can be estimated using published tests and other data. The Nikon and a truly excellent lens is yours for 5000$US, it is a bit hard to ignore the option, if making good images is all you want. There may be other factors like enjoyment of using a well built tool.

Very clearly, MF has some advantages, but those advantages can only be judged from real pictures. Some argue that you must judge a system based on own usage. In my view you can accurately judge some aspects by well executed test images. You can never judge anything from a web sized image, unless it shows a specific aspect of an image. So comparing actual pixels may be OK if the comparison is correctly done. Using available information makes a lot of sense in my humble opinion.

Best regards
Erik

I could ask you exact same of what you post.

Suggest we both give each other some slack.  ;)

Likewise appreciate if you not ask more and more to pull deeper... simply good if we can leave at respect.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: EricWHiss on October 17, 2012, 02:29:29 am
Give that gem of a camera a sensor with cmos style live view and focusing off the sensor and I would be standing right beside you drooling ;) Many nice things about that camera.

Why wait for a CMOS sensor?   It's a fantastic film camera (perhaps the best?) and works quite nicely with the AFi-12 back. Revolving sensor really makes the ergonomics complete.   The viewfinder is excellent and I mostly manual focus with the screen. The 45 degree prism has 2.5x magnification.  I shoot hand held at 1/2 the focal length all the time.    That said we are lucky to have so many great cameras to choose from, new and old. 

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 17, 2012, 02:53:12 am
I could ask you exact same of what you post.

Yes, you can.

And you will see that I only recommend what I know and have used myself extensively.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 17, 2012, 03:22:38 am
Why wait for a CMOS sensor?   It's a fantastic film camera (perhaps the best?) and works quite nicely with the AFi-12 back. Revolving sensor really makes the ergonomics complete.   The viewfinder is excellent and I mostly manual focus with the screen. The 45 degree prism has 2.5x magnification.  I shoot hand held at 1/2 the focal length all the time.    That said we are lucky to have so many great cameras to choose from, new and old. 

It's a fine camera, but with film the larger GX680 6x8 negative makes me much happier... though my back sometimes will not agree.
Keep in mind though that I don't use the square format so I am comparing 6x8 with 4.5 x 6.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: yaya on October 17, 2012, 04:26:14 am
How about we all throw some money in a hat and get them a room?

You've got my 20p  ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: bcooter on October 17, 2012, 04:54:02 am

I'm not trying to escalate this silly conversation but just going to clarify a few things and be done.

1.  We tape the name on all of our cameras, except the REDs.  Nearly every project some client or agencies video guys are shooting behind-the-scenes and most of our client's brands have issues showing big white logos.

If there is no tape on our camera's logos then it got pulled off by accident.  When we shot that Phase gig, we just came off a project that had an agency still photographer and videographer documenting the Barcelona shoot so that's why the contax name was blanked out.
We weren't trying to trick anyone.

2.  The Phase video screen grab someone pulled up should have been retouched to to say p30+.  I've never looked at the complete video, (probably won't), but to change the p45 to p30 would have taken 10 minutes in post  and makes sense, but hey . . . Phase has a small marketing budget and the editor probably had limited resource.

Having worked in partnership with large corporations and agencies with 1000 times the marketing budget of Phase I've seen bigger mistakes than a logo or slight misinfomration about a product  (especially one that didn't exist at the time).

Cut em' some slack, because unless your privledged to some e-mail that said "do this or else", it probably was just simple oversight, compounded by time and resources.  These medium format companies are tiny in the world of electronic camera companies. 

3.  I don't believe you can judge any camera system unless you shoot in your own exact style, go through rounds of post production and deliver.  I'm not going to comment on the D800 cause I haven't tried one, but since I shoot 99.9999999% people skin tones are important to me and I don't like the  skintones with my Nikons.

4.  Most of this is Apples to Oranges.  Everyone shoots in a different style and subject,  so IMO  test in your own style and don't waste your time looking on the web to compare images of any size, because you didn't shoot them and don't know the intent of the photographer and/or client.  With medium format it is very, very easy to arrange a proper test, if your serious.

5.  I would have said a year ago (actually I did) that all medium format should go to cmos.  Today I feel the opposite.  Compared to the 35mm cameras my Phase have slow iso, but we light, know how to work around it and in my work (let me repeat that) in my work, I have found the ccd based cameras I've used from the dcs 760, to the Leica M8 to the Aptus 22 to my Phase P21+ and P30+ all have much more robust files to work in post than any cmos camera I own.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 17, 2012, 06:08:25 am
You've got my 20p  ;)

Impressive... deep pockets  ;)
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 17, 2012, 06:12:26 am
I'm not trying to escalate this silly conversation but just going to clarify a few things and be done.

1.  We tape the name on all of our cameras, except the REDs.  Nearly every project some client or agencies video guys are shooting behind-the-scenes and most of our client's brands have issues showing big white logos.

If there is no tape on our camera's logos then it got pulled off by accident.  When we shot that Phase gig, we just came off a project that had an agency still photographer and videographer documenting the Barcelona shoot so that's why the contax name was blanked out.
We weren't trying to trick anyone.

....


I don't doubt you at all. Often logos have to be hidden on props in films or ads. Some photographers also just don't like flashy white text waving in the models face.

However out of curiosity what do you think about the description PhaseOneDK used on the youtube posting of the video.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8186/8092084162_319fac7e65_b.jpg)

It's pretty clear:
"Phase One camera system: http://www.phaseone.com
Watch professional photographer James Russell working with the Phase One camera system on a photo shooting for Phase One."

Click on the hyperlink, takes you to the phase one web site and this is the camera system there is the DF. phase One Camera System

This clearly would lead people to believe that what you say about being unbreakable even after your roughing the camera up etc is refereed to the DF.

I agree with you about the robustness of the P series backs.... built like little tanks, but the DF is far from robust or rock solid.
Mine would work for days on end and then out of the blue the wheel on the body or grip would no longer work.... remove lens... remove batteries... put it together again...
make up some excuse to tell the client.... put it back together again.. say a little prayer and it may come back to life.

The p25+ back on my Fuji gx680 worked all the time.

Yea as you say I could have tested one before, but that would have made little difference because the freeze attacks might not happen for days.

Anyway I just want to repeat that I'm not saying you did anything fishy. I probably should have made that more clear from the get go.
Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: FredBGG on October 17, 2012, 06:57:11 am

.....

Cut em' some slack, because unless your privledged to some e-mail that said "do this or else", it probably was just simple oversight, compounded by time and resources.  These medium format companies are tiny in the world of electronic camera companies. 

.....

IMO

BC


I would BC if it were not for this sort of thing:

Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be)

The video shows a Phase One guy shooting moving action with strobe and WIDE OPEN
with fast focus. Yet the very manual of that cameras states that you need to shoot at f8 in order to achieve focus
with fast focus.

From page 99 of the pdf manual.

Quote
C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)[/quore]



The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more.
No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.

Title: Re: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 17, 2012, 08:41:20 am
I'm not trying to escalate this silly conversation but just going to clarify a few things and be done.

Likewise.

4.  Most of this is Apples to Oranges.  Everyone shoots in a different style and subject,  so IMO  test in your own style and don't waste your time looking on the web to compare images of any size, because you didn't shoot them and don't know the intent of the photographer and/or client.  With medium format it is very, very easy to arrange a proper test, if your serious.

Sample RAW files of similar subjects to ones own are very valuable, since shot by folks already familiar with the system/back/camera. Likewise is hearing from other shooters / dealer/agent of differences to what one normally shoot, since that can help to pinpoint the differences towards making an individual choice. Review of many processed images display what others achieve after post.