Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: BJL on September 17, 2012, 11:17:30 am
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Panasonic has announced the GH3
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Panasonic-announces-DMC-GH3-high-end-movie-focused-mirrorless-camera
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9011/the-panasonic-gh3-is-here
and it seems more heavily skewed to video usage than even the previous GH models, with higher bit-rates and the option of ALL-I intra-frame compression (as also offered in the Canon 5D Mk III and 1D X). The sensor is no longer multi-aspect ratio though, which seems strange with its video orientation: the maximum horizontal pixel count is actually less than in the GH2, so there are fewer photosites available for the 16:9 HD video crop.
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Fascinating that Panny have obviously looked very closely at the hacks that were being done on the GH2 and came up with the GH3 with marketing skewed to a video product!
Whither the AF100 or its successor?
My guess is that the sales numbers of video-only cameras do not support the blistering pace of still/video products.
For any of us video types that have adopted mft, this looks like a real winner.
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According to DPReview it's a bit larger camera (nice) and it'll offer an OEM battery grip (nicer still). Some nice creative options for still shooters too. 7 frame AEB at up to 1 stop, interval timer for timelapse and a multiple exposure feature (no word on how many exposures). Full 1080/60p at 72mbps in All-I. It'll also offer HDMI out to an external recorder but not sure in what form. It's also got built-in wifi and there's an Android/iOS app for remote wifi control. Looks like a pretty stout offering from Panny. All that're needed are price and availability date.
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All that're needed are price
USD $1300 body only - preorders accepted by all usual places
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I think the panny image is great but still would not be happy to pipe my sound through a 1/4 jack.
XLR box with interface like the battery grip required IMO
S
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USD $1300 body only - preorders accepted by all usual places
That's what I heard on pricing too after I posted last night but was told it wasn't final. Guess it is. Good price point for what the camera offers.
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I think the panny image is great but still would not be happy to pipe my sound through a 1/4 jack.
XLR box with interface like the battery grip required IMO
S
Some of the external recorders offer XLR connections, don't they?
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Some of the external recorders offer XLR connections, don't they?
You mean a box made for the panny - or using double sound or a XLR preamp?
It would be tidy to have an XLR battery grip.
S
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You mean a box made for the panny - or using double sound or a XLR preamp?
It would be tidy to have an XLR battery grip.
S
How many other SLR-type cameras offer onboard XLR? I think you're hoping against hope. ;D
No, I was thinking of something like the Ki Pro Mini (http://www.aja.com/en/products/ki-pro-mini/#overview). I don't think the Ninja offers XLR connectors but others in the Atomos line might. Would that work?
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How many other SLR-type cameras offer onboard XLR? I think you're hoping against hope. ;D
I might be, but I see it another way. How many professional people making video do you see without XLR microphones.
Thinking this on. I think there is a real hole for panny to do an AF200
The AF100 was well specced SDi connector, ND, XLR, but was a blatant con compared to the price of the GH2, and also released when there were far fewer MFT lenses in the party
I think there is a huge hole for the af100 of today..
S
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Probably not many in the past. But that may be changing with the improvements in DSLR video. Perhaps Chris can chime in with his setup.
What about an external recorder with the XLR connectors like the Ki Pro Mini, though? Would that work?
What's the concern with the stereo plug connectors? Sound quality? Durability?
Maybe an AF200 is coming. But if it were priced at roughly the same as the AF100, would it not too be a 'blatant con' when the price of the GH3 is considered? Does availability of M43 lenses make much of a difference when, with an inexpensive adapter, you can use pretty much any lens available?
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1/4 jack for sound in.
in the next couple of weeks we are going up country to do a project.
Small budget. Two blokes, 4 days, maybe four more days edit.
Would we gamble that on a 1/4 jack plug, not really.
And small HDMI for montior out, and no DC in.
That the trouble with DSLRs they can bring, 60p, 120p, 4k, whatever, but if your project is threatened by a $2 connector the camera is a no go.
1DC, wouldnt use it even if you gave it to me for free.
Now Im not clear in the figures but the AF100 should have cost..
$700 (GH2)
$300 (Nd Filter setup)
$10 extra connectivity leads (a few bits from Maplin)
$20 larger ABS plastic box, (about the size of a toaster)
Im sort of joking, but if I remember the AF100 is 4-6 times the cost of a GH2 - 'a blatant con'
S
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You're not answering the questions, Morgan. You're obfuscating.
What is the issue with the 1/4" stereo connector? Sound quality? Durability? Something else?
WRT the idea of 'professionals' using something other than XLR connectors, a similar argument was made when 35mm film came along. 'No professional would use something less than medium format.' And when digital came along. 'Digital is for amateurs, it's not up to professional work.' And it wasn't in the early days but as it has evolved it has now firmly supplanted film. Just as digital video is beginning to supplant film.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to understand. And, I'm afraid, that you're not providing sound reasoning; at least that I can understand, for the aversion.
I think, when the GH2 came out it was more than $700. But yes, the price point between the two was substantial. Even at $1300, the price point between the GH3 and the AF100 is substantial.
$2.27 XLR connector (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10424&cs_id=1042405&p_id=6210&seq=1&format=2).
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I think, when the GH2 came out it was more than $700.
a little, you were able to buy a genuine new body in Dec 2010/Jan 2011 @ that price... I purchased a new GH2 body from UniquePhoto (www.uniquephoto.com), a reputable seller in NJ, for USD $736 + $10 shipping... and Panasonic was selling even cheaper directly back then.
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You're not answering the questions, Morgan. You're obfuscating.
Im not trying to obfuscate.
Its a question not of quality or sound file, its the general, rough and tumble of doing work with these tools.
Every small lead, junction box, workarounds, add a link to the chain that can break.
In stills my chain is Camera - wizard - wizard - flash.
And dont get me started on broken 1/4 jacks on Pocket Wizards. They are the only weak link in my photography chain and the retarded bastard of a connection is welded onto the mother board so you cant even mend em yourself.
In motion, the chain is longer, bloody long.
lens, adapter (light leak) mic, mic lead, camera, tripod, tripod adapter, ND filter, way of mounting ND filter, way of keeping stray light off ND filter, crappy thin codec, white balance, white balance with lots of ND, IR pollution with lots of ND, monitor, monitor lead, lights that are hot, or the wrong colour, or more expensive than a house. Dust on the sensor, crew reflected in a window, focus motor whining, interference on your lav channels, backlash on your lenses, missed focus, centre only focus check, before you roll, requirement to stay in focus for not 1/250th but 5 minutes, requirment not to wobble the camera not for 1/250th but for five minutes
I mean a cant even remember all of the links in the chain that need to work for you to come back with a usable in focus bit of footage that has audible synched sound attached.. and then ist got to cut, and be coherent and make a story that stands up to an audience that watches TeeVee more than they ... their missus - a harsh audience not of camera nerds, but Joe Public who might or night not engage with my client through my video.
Ive not done too many motion shoots for cash yet, but I have done enough to have climbed a certain wall
.. and I love every moment of the 4d chess you play, but I assure you you need every brain cell on the job and not a wobbly mic lead.
S
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OK, I thought the GH2 was more than that but I'm also thinking more of Canadian pricing and when the GH2 came out the currency exchange wasn't as favourable and there was still a large gap between Canadian and U.S. pricing on camera bodies.
Morgan, OK it's a durability issue. And yes, I get all of the links and leaks in the chain. More than one studio strobe sync cable has raised my ire over the years. ;D
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...Morgan, OK it's a durability issue.
Absolutely. 1/4 mini jacks are good for iPods and that's about it. They should not have a place anywhere in the production chain.
I have destroyed at least two cameras simply by a swift tug on the cable breaking the attached sound card. Go XLR or go home.
The ideal setup is to have an outboard recorder like the Ki into which both video & audio go. We do not have one. I use the AF100s for recording the sound and let the GH2 use its own crappy little mic for reference. The Zoom H4n provides backup but will drift out-of-sync in a few minutes requiring post audio resync. Neither the GH2 or 3 is an acceptable audio recorder and should only be used for any final audio unless you absolutely have no other choice.
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I placed a pre-order for the GH3 a couple weeks ago when I got an independent comfirmation (I was under an NDA) on some specs, particularly the frame, & bit, rates. Should be a great little camera, but I'll primarily use it for B-Roll, both motion, & 16x9 stills.
Too bad the rumored focusing peaking, & XLR adapter, seemed have been just that, but it did get started by a very unreputable website, so no surprise there.
The GH cameras have been a great compliment to the AF100, & will remain just that. There's just too many professional features within the AF100 for the GH2 to supplant it. In fact no camera below an F3, with an external recorder, even matches the AF100 capabilities is a typical production environment.
The AF100's sensor is getting a little long in the tooth, & I imagine Panasonic will announce a replacement at NAB, & start delivery near the end of the year, because that's their normal cycle. I've been looking at other cameras, but sub-Scarlet, or F3 (with recorder), they all lack some feature I just need.
The C300, & C100, are both cameras I would have bought into, but they're slomo capabilities are lacking, while the FS700 shutter speed/angeles don't allow 24p in 50 Hz countries without tungstens, & practicals, flickering.
For the typical photographer wanting a simple motion camera the GH could be a good option, especially if sound is not important, or they're willing to use dual sound setups. In our multicam setups we often run sound to only one camera, & let post deal with syncing them via Plural Eyes software.
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The ideal setup is to have an outboard recorder like the Ki into which both video & audio go.
And that's what I was trying to find out.
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I think the GH3 and many other DSLRs are fantastic for motion as Broll or hobby cameras, or maybe even making dramatic films which is a softer environment (than my work) and has a sound department.
The GH3 is no doubt one of the best offerings for these uses.
I have an Fs100 with onboard sound and a sensor size that matches my lenses - it also has various quirks and half the bit rate of the GH3, which will doubtless have a stronger image.
Its also a strange shape (the FS)
Given that lot the GH3 could contend to replace it (im nuts about small cameras) but without better connections cannot.
As for recorders Ive not gone down that road with my allergy to cables even if I could get a few more MBPS,
I have a sound devices sound recorder and it is stellar, I would suggest the PIX240 would be the prefect recorder in the lower but usable class, also offering fantastic audio and full timecode and edit ready formats.
I wish that would be hooked up solidly (SDi) with a GH3, D4 or whatever
At that point one could build a professional package using these great little cameras, upgrade them at will and also use them naked for simpler projects.
This would be great, but no $5 connection !
I think that the makers feel a need to somehow protect their high end sales by ommission of such components
In reality for me at least they just ensure I will avoid their products
Id love an Sdi D4 or Sdi GH3 and Pix 240 - it would a be great upgrade from my FS100 - and the camera head would not be bogged down with XLR
Would I go to work with a cheapee recorder fed by HDMI? No. Maybe thats just irrational, but I feel not.
IMO
S
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I too love small cameras, & would put up with a compact frankenrig if necessary.
I sent a link to Aaton's new camera to a veteran ASC friend to show him what Jean-Pierre Beauviala has been up to. I always get a kick out of him, & his bandanas. What a spirit!
http://www.fdtimes.com/2012/09/11/aaton-penelope-delta/
While the camera has some great specs, my friend was not impressed by the Cat-on-the-Shoulder design now that smaller, & much more movable, options are available.
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Was your friend impressed by the price at, around, 100,000 Euros?
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ASC members aren't big on owning cameras.
Union assistants are.
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Fair point. Always nice when you can play with someone else's toys.
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The cat on the shoulder is fantastic, trouble is this thing is a lion being compared to some frogs.
Id love the BMC or suclike to be the other way round and a bit sculpted.
A little pussy on the shoulder. Nothing wrong with that.
..like the ikonostop for example.
I got my rig and chipped it with the aarton
(http://www.halfinchrails.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/aarton.jpg)
S
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At least with the beta firmware, the GH3's ALL-I codec does not seem up to the task, & it's AVCHD looks much better. Some of the more scientifically inclined warned that 72 Mbps wasn't sufficient for ALL-I, & they may be correct.
I don't believe the 50 Mbps IPB has been enabled yet, but it may be the best codec available until the cameras get's hacked.
Even though the 5D3's ALL-I codec runs at fixed 100 Mbps it too has issues, & many users prefer it's variable bit rate IPB codec.
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Bloom (http://philipbloom.net/2012/09/15/genesis/) seems to think it's pretty good.
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Bloom doesnt work any more, certainly not solo, sound critical.
It is a good image maker...
S
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Not entirely sure what that's supposed to mean.
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Well a lot of this thread was about putting reliance in a 1/4 audio jack,
Its less of an issue if you review the camera from the POV of someone who generally works with an audio person, or swaps out cameras weekly before all the sockets fall apart
S
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That wasn't what I was talking about though, Morgan. I was responding to Bern's remark about the All-I quality of the GH3 being not too good.
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Can't remember where I saw it, but some All-I frames were recorded coursely. But the firmware is still beta, so may be fixed eventually.
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Could be Bloom had a more updated firmware version too. Stands to reason if Panasonic are going to use that film to show what the camera can do they'd want it performing pretty well even if all functionality isn't enabled.
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Abel Cine's blog contains some interesting details about the Aaton.
http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/09/27/aaton-unveils-the-delta-penelope-camera/