Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: DaveL on September 09, 2012, 05:26:52 pm

Title: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: DaveL on September 09, 2012, 05:26:52 pm
dpreview Sony talk forum.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=42444963

Leaked photos are at Sony Rumours

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/



Full Frame. 35/2.0 fixed...

DaveL
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 10, 2012, 12:52:31 am
It was pretty obvious after the RX100 announcement that the FF version would come soon one way or another.

The philosophy of the RX series is obvious and cristal clear:
1. Make the smallest possible body for each sensor size while...
2. Keeping the lens high quality,
3. Not missing any key high end feature.

We'll then just have to wait for the APS-C RX10 I guess. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: mac_paolo on September 10, 2012, 01:46:09 am
We'll then just have to wait for the APS-C RX10 I guess. :-)
You've read my mind :)
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: DaveL on September 10, 2012, 02:13:07 pm
In an (futile) attempt to simplify my life, I had a Sony F828 for several years. Loved the lens. Used it as a I would a medium format slr, waist level, and loved it.

My latest (futile) attempt, I have an Oly M5 brand new. Now that I have had it a while, it is starting to feel like a friend.  I keep threatening to resist further attempts, and buy a Leica M3 and 3 lenses, and call the search over. (My M3 was my favourite camera ever. It was stolen after a car crash.)

Bernard, this is where I ended up after seriously considering other replacements for my Sony NEX5. The Nikon V1 was the last cut.  NEX is gone.
DaveL
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: kers on September 10, 2012, 02:47:14 pm
At this price level you would like it to be able to change lenses..
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: OldRoy on September 10, 2012, 03:07:53 pm
At this price level you would like it to be able to change lenses..

At this price level you'd expect a viewfinder too, but it seems there is no limit to, er, something or other.
Roy
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: DaveL on September 10, 2012, 09:31:21 pm
A note on one site said EVF and OVF coming. We'll see. The cost rules it out for many; me included. However, the proof is in the tasting. Looking forward to seeing images taken by real photographers. It's all about images.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Quentin on September 11, 2012, 04:55:30 pm
Looks great, but makes little sense if you have a NEX-7 with the same resolution and interchangeable lenses.  And at the reported price, it better have spectacular performance.  Sigma could make the DP2M for under $1,000 and that does have spectacular performance.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: grzybu on September 12, 2012, 04:00:19 am
Well, Sony just showed that they can use FF sensor with E-mount.
This means that we may see FF NEX sooner than expected.
It will probably allow to mount existing APS lenses using only APS part of the sensor.
Then they just need to release Zeiss 35/2 with new FF body and it will shake the market.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: hjulenissen on September 12, 2012, 04:05:10 am
I really like what Sony are doing with their cameras these days. Seems that they have both the fundamental technology and the willingness to take risks. I may not purchase their products, but I still like what they are doing.

-h
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: allegretto on September 12, 2012, 05:03:17 am
Having just rid myself of most of the Sony frustratingly proprietary system (thank heaven for eBay) am very suspect of their real world performance, wondrous specs notwithstanding.

The 24M APS-C CMOS in the now past A77 was underwhelming. Poor hi ISO and a certain type of graininess, even at low ISO that drove me batty. Of interest, MR in his LR4 Tutorial (which I like greatly, though DxO OP7 is proving to be very impressive)  passingly mentions this tenancy. Since I'm not a pro and some here with far more knowledge than me like the Exmoor I wont try to characterize this propensity for fear of looking foolish. But I do know "grainy" when it is present.

Second point is that based on price points, Sony must be very proud of their hardware... RX-100, a pure win, the other stuff... we'll see
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Hulyss on September 12, 2012, 05:42:39 am
Looks great, but makes little sense if you have a NEX-7 with the same resolution and interchangeable lenses.  And at the reported price, it better have spectacular performance.  Sigma could make the DP2M for under $1,000 and that does have spectacular performance.

The DP2m is under 1000 $, at least in France. Got mine for 849 € and was the first one served on the whole territory.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Erick Boileau on September 12, 2012, 07:32:56 am
just a few monthes to wait for the same thing with EVF and posibility to change the lenses  for the same price and it works !
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Pete_G on September 12, 2012, 10:53:37 am
The DP2m is under 1000 $, at least in France. Got mine for 849 € and was the first one served on the whole territory.

Where did you get it from at that price?
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: kers on September 12, 2012, 12:00:07 pm
Looks great, but makes little sense if you have a NEX-7 with the same resolution and interchangeable lenses.  And at the reported price, it better have spectacular performance.  Sigma could make the DP2M for under $1,000 and that does have spectacular performance.

I think High ISO will be much better on this FF Sony
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 12, 2012, 02:28:07 pm
I do not get it.

What is the point of this camera? Who needs a full-frame, single-lens, no-viewfinder camera for $3,000!? It does not have the sex appeal (or snob appeal, if you wish), nor the rich history, fine mechanics and mystique of a Leica. Seems to be another of those "here today, gone tomorrow" digital models. The only suitable use I see would be street photography. On the other hand, street photographers are rarely, if ever, terribly concerned by "spectacular" noise and sharpness performance, nor they print big.

So, who and what is it for?
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: DaveL on September 12, 2012, 04:35:25 pm
I read your response, and then I read your "signature" under your photo. Well you got me thinking! ;)

It's all about images. However, I wonder too. I was interested when I first saw the leaked photos (on Facebook). Thanks photoprice.ca!  When I saw the (estimated?) price on another site, I quickly lost attention.

There are other cameras I would buy before this one.

Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: deejjjaaaa on September 12, 2012, 08:07:29 pm
What is the point of this camera? Who needs a full-frame, single-lens, no-viewfinder camera for $3,000!? It does not have the sex appeal (or snob appeal, if you wish), nor the rich history, fine mechanics and mystique of a Leica.

price is much less then leica (and w/ lens - included) and then a lot of people are using Leica w/ just 1-2 lenses...  it noticeably smaller than leica, lighter than leica, has AF...
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Steve Weldon on September 12, 2012, 10:17:40 pm
This camera requires thought:  How many of us 45+ went through Photography 101 and 102 armed only with a SLR and 50mm lens?  We learned to do a lot with a normal fixed lens.  I had a great 50mm (Zuiko F1.2) and still do, but about the only times I felt limited for my personal needs were the odd bird/squirrel and sports.  Most other things were obtainable.\

Fast forward 20-30 years and many of today's photographers never had the pleasure of 'only' a 50mm perspective and those of us who did have long been exposed to bags full of zooms and other primes.  And probably most of us are coming from very capable DSLR's..

This is where I was when the Fuji x100 beckoned like a cute 20yo coed in a short skirt.  How could we resist.  Yet, the experience left many feeling a bit disappointed because she didn't perform as well or do as many tricks/techniques/features as our older and more experienced partners.  Many of us saw right away that the x100 was to be enjoyed on the occasional afternoon and to not expect too much from her, yet we were often pleasantly surprised when she performed well above her expectations.  Some quickly grew impatient and decided the x100 wasn't for them, but many learned she indeed could hold a certain place within their circle of enjoyment.  All it took was a realistic perspective, to not expect the x100 to perform as well or know as many tricks as her older and more talented counterpart, to enjoy only what she had to offer and to learn to enjoy having a small young thing on your arm vs. the extra size and weight of the alternative.  And to be willing to give up a little to have it.

And now the RX1 comes along, maybe not as cute, but for sure the skirt is shorter and subsequently the price tag is much higher.  Yet there's the promise she does everything the x100 did.. a bit better.   Again, hard to resist if you've got the $2800 stack of mad money laying about..  I still see this as a part time date, the occasional afternoon.. she still can't perform at the level or do all the things we need to fit into our lives as our one and only.  And there's no denying breaking up is hard to do.

So where does the RX1 possibly fit into my life?  For sure the fun afternoon when I can get away from work, the rare weekend up the coast away from all the pressures when I don't care to haul the regular old bag along, and who can deny she's fun to hold and feel her smallness and smooth sides as we effortlessly lift her lightweight essence to eye level.  And with her improved technique and higher levels of performance how can we deny ourselves?

It's not like we can expect the RX1 to clean our clothes, cook our dinners, or raise our kids.  She's just not cut out for those duties.  But for what she does do, I'm betting she'll do it well and with a willingness long forgotten.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 12, 2012, 11:43:48 pm
Steve, are you saying that if I fork out that much money, I will have the same pleasure Eliot Spitzer did (while it lasted)? ;D
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: OldRoy on September 13, 2012, 12:25:21 pm
This camera requires thought:  How many of us 45+ went through Photography 101 and 102 armed only with a SLR and 50mm lens?  We learned to do a lot with a normal fixed lens.  I had a great 50mm (Zuiko F1.2) and still do, but about the only times I felt limited for my personal needs were the odd bird/squirrel and sports.  Most other things were obtainable......
Yes, but not much thought: whilst going through that stage we weren't obliged to hold the camera out in front of us like twerps or to buy an overpriced peephole to mount on top of the camera in emulation of cameras from the first quarter of the 20th century.

I hope I've finally reached the stage where the sort of hysteria associated with the release of new cameras like this one has completely abated. Shelling out close to 3 grand for a camera with a fixed 35mm world-view and no viewfinder... well, there's just no limit to the gullibility of this market it seems.
Roy
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Steve Weldon on September 13, 2012, 02:06:42 pm
Steve, are you saying that if I fork out that much money, I will have the same pleasure Eliot Spitzer did (while it lasted)? ;D

I would call it well.. a similar experience.    I'm sure Mr. Spitzer enjoyed himself at least several times, but ultimately she couldn't be everything he needed in a woman.  Was his purchase a wise one?   I suspect when a man is in his twilight years and reflects back on his most fond memories she'll gain additional value.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Steve Weldon on September 13, 2012, 02:15:56 pm
Yes, but not much thought: whilst going through that stage we weren't obliged to hold the camera out in front of us like twerps or to buy an overpriced peephole to mount on top of the camera in emulation of cameras from the first quarter of the 20th century.

I hope I've finally reached the stage where the sort of hysteria associated with the release of new cameras like this one has completely abated. Shelling out close to 3 grand for a camera with a fixed 35mm world-view and no viewfinder... well, there's just no limit to the gullibility of this market it seems.
Roy

1.  I find with the x100 I use the optical 80%, EVF 15%, and live view 5%.   So I can't help but agree.  I can't wait to see the detail in the 24mp images composed through a viewfinder while holding the camera not only in a non-braced position, but one which duplicates stress positions used in physical punishments.  What were they thinking.. (probably, "now we can charge $599 for a viewfinder that works.")

2.  Some products excite for what they can do, and others for the underlying technology which we hope will be applied to future products.   I think the RX1 is the latter.  I'm hoping if Sony can put a FF sensor in a camera that size, then Fuji will notice and put one behind a proper viewfinder..
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: AFairley on September 13, 2012, 03:25:50 pm
I hope I've finally reached the stage where the sort of hysteria associated with the release of new cameras like this one has completely abated. Shelling out close to 3 grand for a camera with a fixed 35mm world-view and no viewfinder... well, there's just no limit to the gullibility of this market it seems.

+1
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 13, 2012, 09:01:19 pm
The RX1 is for sure an appealing camera, but the price is hard to justify when considered from a opportunity cost standpoint.

I guess that the question I will ask myself is "Assuming a finite budget for photographic expenditures, is this really the best way to help with my photography at this point of time?"

The truth is that it clearly is not. I will personnally save that money for the replacement of my workstation when the Mac Pro dies.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: kencameron on September 13, 2012, 11:56:04 pm
...we weren't obliged to hold the camera out in front of us like twerps...

Mmmm. Such sentiments are frequent on LuLa, and I admit I much prefer a viewfinder myself, and an optical viewfinder to an electronic. But I wonder whether to some future photographers it might not be such a big deal. Image stabilization offsets some of the advantages of viewfinders and screens have some advantages for composition in that they make you focus on the small flat rectangle you are producing rather than its three-dimensional source.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: JohnBrew on September 14, 2012, 12:45:06 pm
Damn shame they didn't put in a popup viewfinder in place of the popup flash.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: AFairley on September 14, 2012, 12:48:40 pm
Mmmm. Such sentiments are frequent on LuLa, and I admit I much prefer a viewfinder myself, and an optical viewfinder to an electronic. But I wonder whether to some future photographers it might not be such a big deal. Image stabilization offsets some of the advantages of viewfinders and screens have some advantages for composition in that they make you focus on the small flat rectangle you are producing rather than its three-dimensional source.

And then there are demographics.  At my age, to use the rear LCD I have to put on my reading glasses, which is a real PITA out in the field (actually it's a PITA anywhere, just worse out in the field  ;)), at least with an EVF or OVF I can dial in diopter correction.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Steve Weldon on September 14, 2012, 02:20:50 pm
Mmmm. Such sentiments are frequent on LuLa, and I admit I much prefer a viewfinder myself, and an optical viewfinder to an electronic. But I wonder whether to some future photographers it might not be such a big deal. Image stabilization offsets some of the advantages of viewfinders and screens have some advantages for composition in that they make you focus on the small flat rectangle you are producing rather than its three-dimensional source.

Well.. maybe when/if evolution finds a way to support our outer wings in their lateral extended position with the same degree of steadiness the welded braced position offers.  And I'm not sure I want to wait that long, OR look at the evolved women..    I'm just sayin.   

There are appropriate uses for a live view screen, when the screen articulates it's easy to find a braced position from several shooting perspectives.  And they excel for video.   Mounted macro work comes to mind as well.  But to replace the traditional braced position that allows us to easily manipulate the controls, move in/out of other people and obstacles quickly, and still remain balanced on our core axis.. what were they thinking?
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: kencameron on September 14, 2012, 07:30:16 pm
I am not saying there won't be a use for viewfinders - just that expressions such as "hold the camera out in front of us like twerps" might come to seem a little - how should I say - elderly.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: DaveL on September 28, 2012, 01:43:27 pm
1.  I find with the x100 I use the optical 80%, EVF 15%, and live view 5%.   So I can't help but agree.  I can't wait to see the detail in the 24mp images composed through a viewfinder while holding the camera not only in a non-braced position, but one which duplicates stress positions used in physical punishments.  What were they thinking.. (probably, "now we can charge $599 for a viewfinder that works.")

2.  Some products excite for what they can do, and others for the underlying technology which we hope will be applied to future products.   I think the RX1 is the latter.  I'm hoping if Sony can put a FF sensor in a camera that size, then Fuji will notice and put one behind a proper viewfinder..

Thank you Steve. Bookworthy!

(I am intrigued that Sony has designed this product. I am appalled at its cost. "What were they thinking?" is a polite translation of what I said at the time.)


It's all about images. I can't see this camera producing images I might take with other equipment. It's a pass for me.

Title: E-mount NEX lenses probably do not cover 36x24mm; no C-AF in the RX1
Post by: BJL on October 02, 2012, 07:24:17 pm
Well, Sony just showed that they can use FF sensor with E-mount.
...
It will probably allow to mount existing APS lenses using only APS part of the sensor.
I think you are right on the second point: the Sony NEX-VG900 [Edit: corrected name] video camera has a full 36x24mm sensor and E mount, but when NEX lenses are used on it, the camera automatically crops to the roughly 24x16mm format of other NEX cameras. (So you need to use alpha-mount lenses via an adaptor to actually use all of the sensor!)

This indicates that NEX lenses and lens mount are _not_ designed to cover 36x24mm format: there might even be vignetting of the larger image circle by the lens mount. So I see no evidence that E mount can or will be used in a 36x24mm system.

However, I can easily imagine Sony launching a new "Super-NEX" mirrorless system based on 36x24mm format but with a different lens mount to accommodate the larger image circle.


By the way, it is disappointing that Sony has not put PDAF in the sensor, despite now doing so in some NEX cameras. This means that the RX1 will _not_ have good focus tracking for still photography. Sony has just clarified the absence of C-AF for still photography in a revision/clarification of the previous feature list.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: qwz on October 03, 2012, 11:49:26 am
BJL
Nope.
E-mount can be used with 36mm wide sensor.
But current lenses don't cover this size.
You should use supplied LA-EA3 adapter to mount A-mount Sony|Minolta lens or other adapter for different mount lens.

Sony will make new E-mount lens, covering full-frame but obviously it will be in the not near future.
Title: Can E-mount support the 36x24mm image circle (not that it matters much)
Post by: BJL on October 03, 2012, 04:17:37 pm
E-mount can be used with 36mm wide sensor.
But current lenses don't cover this size.
Do you have a source for the ability of the E-mount to properly cover the 42mm image circle needed by 36x24mm format? One issue is whether the diameter of the opening in the mount exceeds the 42mm diagonal of the 36x24mm frame by enough to let through the entire incoming light cones of lenses at minimum f-stop. For example, to support f/1.4 lenses, the diameter of the opening needs to be about
        sensor diagonal size + (depth of mount)/1.4
so the minimum required diameter is about 14mm more for 36x24mm than the NEX sensors require (the sensor diagonals are about 42mm and 28mm respectively).

In other words, the question is whether Sony made the E-mount opening 14mm wider than is needed by NEX sensors.


Not that it matters much: it seems that new lenses would be needed for the larger format either way, and then even if the mount is different, those new lenses could easily be made usable on NEX bodies via a full-function adaptor.
Title: Re: Can E-mount support the 36x24mm image circle (not that it matters much)
Post by: peterv on October 06, 2012, 06:31:02 pm
Do you have a source for the ability of the E-mount to properly cover the 42mm image circle needed by 36x24mm format?

Sony Alpha authority David Kilpatrick wrote about this:

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/08/19/should-nex-go-full-frame/ (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/08/19/should-nex-go-full-frame/)
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Vivec on October 07, 2012, 03:23:16 am
I would call it well.. a similar experience.    I'm sure Mr. Spitzer enjoyed himself at least several times, but ultimately she couldn't be everything he needed in a woman.  Was his purchase a wise one?   I suspect when a man is in his twilight years and reflects back on his most fond memories she'll gain additional value.

Awesome post! Thanks for making me smile :-)
Title: Can E-mount support the 36x24mm image circle? 39mm throat suggests not
Post by: BJL on October 11, 2012, 02:47:18 pm
Sony Alpha authority David Kilpatrick wrote about this:

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/08/19/should-nex-go-full-frame/ (http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2012/08/19/should-nex-go-full-frame/)
Thanks for that link. It does persuade me that it would be impossible to use the current E-mount in full 35mm format with sensor-shift stabilization, which would be a bit sad for backward compatability with exisisting alpha mount lenses. It is true that NEX also abandons sensor-shift stabilization, but I would think that users of 35mm format would be more interested in lens backward compatibility.

[EDIT: I take the following back, having looked at details of the NEX-VG900 video camera with its E-mount and 36x24mm sensor. If there is any slight corner vignetting at low f-stops, Sony seems wiling to accept it, in video mode at least.]

On the other hand, I suspect that Kilpatrick has only checked that the chief ray can squeeze through that 39mm throat and reach the corners of the frame, on the 42.5mm image circle, while overlooking vignetting of other light in the broad incoming light cone with large apertures. It seems to me that there would be some partial vignetting near the corners at low f-stops, and so a different mount with a larger diameter would work better with 35mm format.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: allegretto on October 12, 2012, 08:14:55 am
The problem with this camera is the same as buying an Apple laptop. You just know in a few months at most an improved rendition will be available with the additional feature(s) you really wanted.

$2700 experiment in Marketing...

Don't get me wrong, I have three Apple laptops, but I use them. This is, as someone noted a fling, not a tool.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Deep on October 15, 2012, 05:21:35 am
The problem with this camera is the same as buying an Apple laptop. You just know in a few months at most an improved rendition will be available with the additional feature(s) you really wanted.

$2700 experiment in Marketing...

Don't get me wrong, I have three Apple laptops, but I use them. This is, as someone noted a fling, not a tool.
Hmm.  I'm on my fourth Apple laptop and observe that each step "up" is accompanied by steps down.  The "additional features" of my latest one are minor and the losses huge (six months later I'm still grumpy).

Cameras, on the other hand, are improving relentlessly.  Based on a brief first-hand experience with the A99, I expect much from the RX1 sensor.  The lens has potential to be great.  The minimalism is really it's standout feature amongst cameras of that format.  With respect, I think this is a tool, albeit quite a specialised one.  I think, in a sense, it may prove to be a bargain but don't expect to get one anyway.  Iv'e bought too many bargains recently!

Don
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: ripgriffith on November 17, 2012, 01:02:23 pm
Damn shame they didn't put in a popup viewfinder in place of the popup flash.
What a great idea!  I really cannot remember the last time i used the pop-up (or built-in) flash on my camera.  My pocket camera is an old and trusty pannie LX3 and there are many times I would really like an EVF in place of the virtually useless flash.  I, however, do have the advantage of being extremely nearsighted, enough so that without my glasses I can hold the LCD almost at my eye.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: theguywitha645d on November 18, 2012, 11:21:27 am
Actually, I think the RX1 is a brilliant camera. Lots of people will not get it, both physically (because of price) and conceptually (because it does not suit them), but it is a great design.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: John Gellings on November 29, 2012, 08:27:51 am
If there was a built in VF of some kind, they would have made a killing.  Without the VF, they will still do ok, but it is a niche product for sure.  I predict price cuts quickly after the initial surge ends. 
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: DaveL on November 29, 2012, 10:33:40 am
What a great idea!  I really cannot remember the last time i used the pop-up (or built-in) flash on my camera.  My pocket camera is an old and trusty pannie LX3 and there are many times I would really like an EVF in place of the virtually useless flash.  I, however, do have the advantage of being extremely nearsighted, enough so that without my glasses I can hold the LCD almost at my eye.

I had an LX5 and added the electronic view finder. I wanted this to be my every day carry camera. (I was a ski instructor for 35 years, and wanted to use it skiing.) However, this didn't work for me. The ordeal of taking the camera out, rigging the EVF, getting a shot or two, then putting it all away...frankly wasn't worth the bother. Part of the challenge is keeping the camera/evf safe, and me too in case of falls...though they don't happen often.

YMMV; I didn't keep the LX5 and finder.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: theguywitha645d on November 29, 2012, 03:41:44 pm
If there was a built in VF of some kind, they would have made a killing.  Without the VF, they will still do ok, but it is a niche product for sure.  I predict price cuts quickly after the initial surge ends. 

There is a built-in VF. It is a large 3" screen on the back, just like the other successful Sony camera, the RX100.

Well, the price makes it a "niche" product. But then many cameras used by members here are niche products.

Certainly the RX100 prices have dropped quickly...
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: John Gellings on November 30, 2012, 09:01:29 am
There is a built-in VF. It is a large 3" screen on the back, just like the other successful Sony camera, the RX100.

I think you know what I meant.   :-[  Nobody calls an LCD a viewfinder, they call it a screen.  

Quote
Well, the price makes it a "niche" product. But then many cameras used by members here are niche products.

And your point is...?
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: hjulenissen on November 30, 2012, 01:38:50 pm
It seems that fuji and Sony have some nice features. Wonder what could have been if one could pick and choose from the RX-1 and the x-pro1 and had it all in one camera.

-h
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 01, 2012, 02:14:42 pm
I think you know what I meant.   :-[  Nobody calls an LCD a viewfinder, they call it a screen.  

Well, I call it a viewfinder because that is exactly what it is. An EVF is simply a small screen after all.

Quote
And your point is...?

Reenforcing your point.
Title: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: BJL on December 02, 2012, 04:16:21 pm
I think you know what I meant.   :-[  Nobody calls an LCD a viewfinder, they call it a screen.
Some of us call the external screen a viewfinder, because it is. I agree with "Guy" that it would be good to acknowledge that, on cameras where the rear screen provides a live view usable for composition, it is a viewfinder, as surely as the similarly-sized frosted glass screen device on the top of old-style medium format film cameras (ones without "prism-finders") is a viewfinder, and has always been called that.

And by the way, do all those old-timers who complain about the unstable ergonomics and problems in sunlight of these external screen video "live-view-finders” also have as much contempt for the old "top-down ground glass medium format camera viewfinders"? Even the tiltable external live-view-finders that can be used top-down with the camera-holding hands resting on one's belly?

I like to distinguish the two types of live-view-finders as
- "one-eyed", "peep-hole" or "eye-level".
- "two-eyed", "external" or "rear-screen". Or "tripod friendly". Or "low angle friendly".
Title: Re: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 03, 2012, 02:58:12 pm
LCDs are for punks and chimps.


Wow. You must just be the greatest photographer in the world. I wonder why the camera companies just don't defer to your superior intellect.  ::)
Title: Re: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: TMARK on December 03, 2012, 04:48:25 pm
Not an old-timer, but yes.

Give me a huge, bright, 100% viewfinder with step-less dioptre correction and an eyecup that eliminates all extraneous light and I'm ready to work.

LCDs are for punks and chimps.


RIGHT ON!
Title: Re: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: michael on December 03, 2012, 05:46:13 pm
Wow. You must just be the greatest photographer in the world. I wonder why the camera companies just don't defer to your superior intellect.  ::)

Has the ability to detect irony completely disappeared from the face of the earth?

Sheesh!

Michael
Title: Re: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: Mjollnir on December 03, 2012, 10:35:20 pm
Not an old-timer, but yes.

Give me a huge, bright, 100% viewfinder with step-less dioptre correction and an eyecup that eliminates all extraneous light and I'm ready to work.

LCDs are for punks and chimps.


Yawn.  While good eyecups are great, LCDs are for anyone capable of taking pictures.

Please be less stupid.
Title: Re: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: kencameron on December 03, 2012, 11:09:16 pm
Has the ability to detect irony completely disappeared from the face of the earth?
Was it ever common?
Title: Re: "Live-view-finders": one-eyed versus two-eyed types
Post by: TMARK on December 04, 2012, 10:19:22 am
There are certainly times here on LuLa when you'd be forgiven for thinking it had.

This is why I hate dealing with the public.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: thierrylegros396 on December 04, 2012, 12:09:55 pm
Don't kill this thread, please !!
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: Deep on December 04, 2012, 12:43:34 pm
Don't kill this thread, please !!
Agreed!  I almost forgot what we were discussing.  Ok, the RX1 has no built in (little, hold-to-your-eye) viewfinder.  That is important to some, not to others.  As always.  Excellent, let's move on from personal dogma and talk about the camera?

I note Steve Huff is more excited than ever about the RX1.  It must be worth a look, I think.
Title: Sony RX1 discussion: living without eye-level VF or articulated rear screen VF
Post by: BJL on December 05, 2012, 02:02:20 pm
Rather than opinionating about various types of viewfinders, how about people describe their actual experiences with cameras that they have used for a while, not just handled in a shop. My two questions are

Q1. How much if any does the lack of a one-eyed eye-level VF bother you?

Q2. How much if any does the inability to tilt a two-eyed rear-screen VF bother you?


My experience so far is that I can mostly live with a _tiltable_ rear-screen, but I do like that tilt.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion: living without eye-level VF or articulated rear screen VF
Post by: kencameron on December 05, 2012, 03:03:32 pm
perience so far is that I can mostly live with a _tiltable_ rear-screen, but I do like that tilt.
Yes, the tilt makes a big difference to me as well, especially with nature/landscape photography. But I am also willing to pay extra for an EVF.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: MarkL on December 06, 2012, 07:55:39 am
Another camera frustratingly close to ideal to seriously take over some duties I still use a dslr for. If it had a good evf and interchangable lenses I would have swollowed the price, sony's on-chip phase detect af would have been nice too.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: allegretto on December 07, 2012, 12:55:57 pm
Got mine yesterday. Didn't want to like it as much as I do. Shockingly good and great high ISO pics.

In fact, if I had to cite one thing about modern cameras that truly pleases me is the ISO range of the units. Just opens up so many possibilities. I read where some say, "I only shoot low ISO". But once you have a few stops in your pocket, new opportunities pop up. Never liked flash, almost impossible to get a good candid shot with it and typically the balance is whacky

Don't mind that the screen is the only EVF. Would be a bigger and more expensive package if it were included. Seems that for every camera there are folks who complain about the small stuff.

Think it's a winner...!
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 07, 2012, 01:30:34 pm
My camera was just shipped. I certainly don't mind the built-in viewfinder not being eye level. My E-P1 which I have used for years is basically the same kind of thing. The camera is not for everybody, but that does not mean it is for nobody.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion: living without eye-level VF or articulated rear screen VF
Post by: Rhossydd on December 07, 2012, 03:25:42 pm
Q1. How much if any does the lack of a one-eyed eye-level VF bother you?
HUGELY. I own a Canon S90 and hate only having a LCD screen.
As someone old enough to need reading glasses, LCDs make using a stills camera horrible and un-spontaneous.
This aspect is major put off for otherwise capable and interesting cameras like the RX-1/RX-100/DP2-M. The X100/M9 are far more compelling cameras in this class because of their viewfinders.

I just want a modern version of the Rollei35/Minox35/Fuji DLSuper mini. A good sensor, sharp lens and an optical viewfinder. My cash is waiting.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion: living without eye-level VF or articulated rear screen VF
Post by: theguywitha645d on December 13, 2012, 10:28:34 am
I just want a modern version of the Rollei35/Minox35/Fuji DLSuper mini. A good sensor, sharp lens and an optical viewfinder. My cash is waiting.

That is easy. Put a $200 Voightlander 35mm optical finder on the top of the RX1--or search ebay for something cheaper. Hey, presto, there you go.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion: living without eye-level VF or articulated rear screen VF
Post by: Deep on December 13, 2012, 12:02:23 pm

I just want a modern version of the Rollei35/Minox35/Fuji DLSuper mini. A good sensor, sharp lens and an optical viewfinder. My cash is waiting.

Surely that is exactly what the Fuji X100 is?  I completely disagree with the other poster who suggested plonking an external viewfinder on an RX1.  Too cumbersome.  However, the Fuji does tick all your boxes!

Don
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion: living without eye-level VF or articulated rear screen VF
Post by: Rhossydd on December 13, 2012, 12:22:20 pm
Surely that is exactly what the Fuji X100 is? 
No, it's at least twice the size.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: allegretto on December 13, 2012, 08:30:46 pm
LR 4.3 just out

recognizes .ARW's from RX-1

thank God
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: michael on December 14, 2012, 09:06:09 am
Note that 4.3 has a lens profile for the RX1, correcting for any residual barrel distortion (just go to Lens Correction panel and check the box).

My review will be up in about a week.

Michael
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: allegretto on December 14, 2012, 01:05:44 pm
seems that DxO profiles are startlingly good at this, and other issues...

can't wait to see their input..!
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: adrian tyler on December 16, 2012, 03:54:55 pm
i use my wife's x100 almost excusively with the new fangled "ground glass fresnel screen", especially for close up portraits where i want a silent shutter and to keep eye contact with the subject (victim), so this little camera is a dream come true for me. it'll also sits in the camera bag alongside a dslr 50mm, and easily holds its own...
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion/ RX 100 screen
Post by: maxgruzen on December 24, 2012, 07:09:25 pm
I'm shooting alot on an RX100. It's my first LCD with no viewfinder. I have to open up the lens to compose and then return it to the proper exposure. I think it sucks big time. I would enjoy using it sometimes for live view but just hate not having a viewfinder. BUT.....I love the camera and the great files it produce's. I use a viewcamera cloth alot. Decided not to buy the RX1 because of the view finder issue and for some reason a EVF on the top turns me off.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: adrian tyler on December 25, 2012, 11:19:59 am
i picked up a used voightlander 35mm viewfinder and coupled with the camera it reminds me very much of using the leica m3.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: John Gellings on January 09, 2013, 08:35:44 am
i picked up a used voightlander 35mm viewfinder and coupled with the camera it reminds me very much of using the leica m3.

Come on...  ::)
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion/ RX 100 screen
Post by: uaiomex on January 10, 2013, 10:50:21 am
Why do you have to do this? Just curious.
Thanks
Eduardo

I'm shooting alot on an RX100. It's my first LCD with no viewfinder. I have to open up the lens to compose and then return it to the proper exposure. I think it sucks big time.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: EgillBjarki on January 11, 2013, 02:58:30 am
Exciting camera for sure! But for me, it is a bit pricy...

Currently I have X100 on me at all times. I really like the 35mm view and f/2.0. This Sony sounds like the perfect upgrade, given I will be able to adjust to no viewfinder.

How ever, I think and hope that others camera manufactures will be offering similar cameras and the price tag drops a bit.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: kencameron on January 11, 2013, 05:26:34 am
Currently I have X100 on me at all times. I really like the 35mm view and f/2.0. This Sony sounds like the perfect upgrade, given I will be able to adjust to no viewfinder.
How ever, I think and hope that others camera manufactures will be offering similar cameras and the price tag drops a bit.
The new X100s (http://www.cnet.com.au/fujifilm-announces-the-x100s-and-x20-339342961.htm), announced at CES, sounds as if it might be a pretty handy upgrade as well, at half the price.
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: adrian tyler on January 13, 2013, 03:17:26 pm
Quote from: adrian tyler on December 25, 2012, 10:19:59 AM
i picked up a used voightlander 35mm viewfinder and coupled with the camera it reminds me very much of using the leica m3.

Come on... 


oops, sorry, meant to say linhof technika with 110xl, custom cam and multiviewfinder, but a tad lighter... ;D
Title: Re: Sony RX1 discussion
Post by: JohnBrew on January 13, 2013, 07:39:40 pm
Another camera frustratingly close to ideal to seriously take over some duties I still use a dslr for. If it had a good evf and interchangable lenses I would have swollowed the price, sony's on-chip phase detect af would have been nice too.

Yes, Mark, I agree with you. Just misses the mark for me. I suppose I'll have to wait for an NEX FF.