Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: BarbaraArmstrong on September 03, 2012, 06:02:23 pm
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Michael, many thanks for the Sigma DP2M review! I'm particularly pleased to note that you've recovered to the point of being able to do the testing/comparisons and writing, so as to post this review for the rest of us. I've been enjoying my DP2M for the past week, but had no idea how well it would hold up in the particular comparisons you made. The biggest problem I have with the Sigmas is the SLOW write times. You really have to be careful not to turn the camera off while it is laboriously getting the information to the card. But I do enjoy the results. You rather strongly suggested there's been a firmware change from the SD1 to the SD1Merrill. I purchased the SD1 when they reduced the price, especially to work with infrared (but I have even more enjoyed using it for color). Sigma stated that the two cameras would be identical except for the Merrill name on the front. Now I'm wondering. Perhaps a firmware update would be available. At any rate, I've enjoyed seeing and benefiting from the progress Sigma has been making with the Foveon sensor. Again, many thanks for your continuing efforts to inform and enlighten us all. --Barbara
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Michael,
Thanks for a toughtful and trough review. Nice to have you back, and hopefully the bad times are soon behind and the good times still ahead!
Best regards
Erik
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Michael,
Thanks for a toughtful and trough review. Nice to have you back, and hopefully the bad times are soon behind and the good times still ahead!
Best regards
Erik
+1
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Michael,
Thanks for a toughtful and trough review. Nice to have you back, and hopefully the bad times are soon behind and the good times still ahead!
Best regards
Erik
+2
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+3 :D
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Michael,
Thanks for a thoughtful and trough review. Nice to have you back, and hopefully the bad times are soon behind and the good times still ahead!
Best regards
Erik
Seconded.
Michael's findings are very much in line with my own mini review.
So, one might ask, where do Sigma go from here with Foveon? 30mp x 3?
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Great to see you back, Michael.
A very intriguing review. It is usually very difficult to see significant differences on the web between digital cameras that have roughly comparable pixel counts. What is quite striking about the Sigma files is they seem to have a remarkable, three dimensional quality to them. The other files seem flat and "compressed" by comparison. I wonder if this shows up in prints. It makes me also wonder why the Foveon technology has not been licensed by the major players like Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. You would think the Foveon technology would be worth a lot more to Sigma if it could piggyback on someone like Canon that knows a lot more about how to make and market excellent cameras. Is there any technical reason why a Foveon sensor could not be scaled up to 35mm full frame or even larger?
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This is a bit off topic but in addition to Michael's general thoughts about the Foveon and the market position of the cameras.
I am one of these persons who likes to try different components to get different results. In the film days I had a collection of nearly all of the available BW and slide films at hand. Today I have a small collections of new and old and obscure lenses and few Cameras including Fujis. (I am a Nikon shooter.)
Would I buy a Sigma SD1 Merrill with a Nikon mount? In a pinch as the last two lenses I bought and the next two I will actually cost more. I would love to use it in well lit situations like a slow film in the old days. Will I buy one with Sigma Mount? No. That would be foolish for me as I do have a Budget after all and I know that I would not be able to limit myself to two or three lenses.
Sigma is without doubt capable to build a Nikon Bayonet to specification. I strongly believe that offering the SD1 with all mounts of major players would be a winning move. However I rate the probability that that will happen as zero based on past observation of corporate reality.
A Camera like the DP2 M might rather be the answer for me.
Thanks for the review and further speedy recovery Michael.
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I know that Sigma says that there hasn't been a firmware change, but I see a definite difference between the results I got last year with the SD1 and now with the DP2M.
Last year I couldn't get properly balanced hues with some colours. Now, that problem is much less of an issue.
Michael
Thanks for everyones kind words regarding my recovery. I feel stronger every day, though that may change as this week I begin a 12 week period of chemotherapy. This effects everyone differently, so we'll see how it goes.
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I know that Sigma says that there hasn't been a firmware change, but I see a definite difference between the results I got last year with the SD1 and now with the DP2M.
Last year I couldn't get properly balanced hues with some colours. Now, that problem is much less of an issue.
Michael
Thanks for everyones kind words regarding my recovery. I feel stronger every day, though that may change as this week I begin a 12 week period of chemotherapy. This effects everyone differently, so we'll see how it goes.
Our thoughts are with you Michael - Best wishes from your supporters in the UK
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Michael, we are all rooting for you. Without ever meeting, you have come into our lives, greatly enriching them. Luminous-Landscape has been indispensable to my development as a photographer and printer, a source of immense pleasure. Our very best wishes are with you as you continue your treatment. And it looks like you have a nice trip to Australia lined up!! All the best, Barbara
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Barbara puts it well, I feel the same!
Best regards
Erik
Michael, we are all rooting for you. Without ever meeting, you have come into our lives, greatly enriching them. Luminous-Landscape has been indispensable to my development as a photographer and printer, a source of immense pleasure. Our very best wishes are with you as you continue your treatment. And it looks like you have a nice trip to Australia lined up!! All the best, Barbara
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Michael, thanks in particular for your response to my inquiry about the firmware on the DP2M, compared with the SD1. I'll have to try comparing some files; I've only recently moved the SD1 out of infrared mode. And again, wishing you the very best through the next few months of treatment. --Barbara
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I strongly believe that offering the SD1 with all mounts of major players would be a winning move.
I'd buy an SD2 with a Sony mount _yesterday_.
(Sony's what I got. When I started using cameras, Sony provided far and away the highest IQ/$. Just 'splainin' -- no need to debate that here.)
MR: Best wishes on continued good health!
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So, one might ask, where do Sigma go from here with Foveon? 30mp x 3?
I think that the best thing that they could do would be to stop pretending that they can build cameras and become the OEM of the sensor for Panasonic (and maybe others.)
E.g. put the Foveon sensor inside an LX series camera, etc.
To Michael, I wish you all the best in your journey ahead.
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A joy to read, as always.
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Michael, thanks for the review. The DP2M does look intriguing, but as a D800E owner is there anything there for me?
Do you see the Sigma as a camera you carry when you don't want the bulk of the D800, or is the "Foveon look" something that simply can't be duplicated even with lots of pixels and high-quality glass?
Thanks,
Geoff
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Hard to say. The 800 is king of the hill at the moment, but due to its weight and bulk it is only used from the car or on a deliberate shoot. But if I find myself heading somewhere with photo possibilities it's now the DP2M that in my jacket pocket.
Michael
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Michael, many thanks for the Sigma DP2M review! I'm particularly pleased to note that you've recovered to the point of being able to do the testing/comparisons and writing, so as to post this review for the rest of us.
+1
Hello Michael!
I have been a reader of your site for some time now, and always enjoy your reviews, but this is my first message on your forum.
The comparisons of the DP2M with other cameras were very interesting, however, I have a (very small) niggle: the Sigma comparison image with the Leica (SDI0061.tif) seems to suffer from camera shake (the vertical edges of the 'H' are sharp, the horizontal egdes are blurry). If you want to show, what the DP2M is capable of in comparison to the Leica, you might want to use a different image.
Nevertheless thanks, and I wish you good luck with your chemo.
Greetings,
-- Robert
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But if I find myself heading somewhere with photo possibilities it's now the DP2M that in my jacket pocket.
I also would like to say thank you very much for your refreshing impressions of the Sigma DP2M. My jacket pocket is still looking for a digital camera that will replace my analog dinosaur Olympus XA and the Sigma seems to be the right candidate (except $$$).
Best wishes
Marc
P.S. I'll keep all fingers crossed that the chemotherapy will work well for you. We will see us at Photokina 2014.
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The bit about "camera pussies" made me laugh, even if, by Michael Reichmann's definition, I am one. I always look forward to new pieces written by Michael himself. He knows how to keep it real.
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Michael, in a previous review of a pocket cam you mentioned "being an old fart, I want a viewfinder, I don't want to hold the camera at arm's length to take a picture!" (Paraphrasing from memory.)
So, are you just "past that" at this point, or is the value proposition of this particular camera strong enough to outweigh that feature? I see you did not indicate lack of a viewfinder as a "con" for this camera.
Just curious.
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There has been a LOT of discussion for some years now about Sigma's tenacious hold on the Foveon technology. There was some hope, with their recent change in leadership, that a licensing agreement with Nikon or Canon might be forthcoming, but it certainly does not appear to be in the works.
Alas, too bad, it would seem to be in everyone's best interests if they were to do so!
Jack Winberg
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Michael writes in his article:
Now (August, 2012) with a current promotion on the new SD1 Merrill is priced at $1,999.
It seems that Vistek in Toronto didn't get that memo. As of September 7, they are still listing SD1 (body only) on their website for $8,999.
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Michael, in a previous review of a pocket cam you mentioned "being an old fart, I want a viewfinder, I don't want to hold the camera at arm's length to take a picture!" (Paraphrasing from memory.)
So, are you just "past that" at this point, or is the value proposition of this particular camera strong enough to outweigh that feature? I see you did not indicate lack of a viewfinder as a "con" for this camera.
Just curious.
I'm not Michael, but he once mentioned somewhere that he uses the Voigtlaender 40mm viewfinder with the Sigma.
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Michael writes in his article:
It seems that Vistek in Toronto didn't get that memo. As of September 7, they are still listing SD1 (body only) on their website for $8,999.
Sometime Visteks pricing is a joke. Just go in and show them B&H's pricing. They usually try and match.
M
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Hard to say. The 800 is king of the hill at the moment, but due to its weight and bulk it is only used from the car or on a deliberate shoot. But if I find myself heading somewhere with photo possibilities it's now the DP2M that in my jacket pocket.
Michael, I see how much do you like the DP2M despite its weak point.
Having read also the RX100 review and knowing how different the two cameras truly are, may I know why do you prefer to bring the DP2M over an RX100 when not knowing what you're going to shoot?
I mean, it's good but so less flexible.
Thank you in advance.
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It's all about image quality. The RX100 is very convenient and has very good image quality for most applications.
The DP2m is like carrying around a Nikon D800 or MF back when it comes to image quality though.
I just spoke with a friend, who like me shoots with a D800e and an Alpa with Phase 180 back. He has made some 24 x30 prints, and his comment was without doing silly side by side comparisons all that he'd say is that if you had to hang the Sigma prints at that size next to ones taken with the Nikon or Phase he would have no hesitation. They compare vety favouably And this is from someone whose work is regularly exhibited in galleries and museums and knows whereof he speaks. I agree wholeheartedly with his conclusions.
Michael
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There has been a LOT of discussion for some years now about Sigma's tenacious hold on the Foveon technology. There was some hope, with their recent change in leadership, that a licensing agreement with Nikon or Canon might be forthcoming, but it certainly does not appear to be in the works.
Alas, too bad, it would seem to be in everyone's best interests if they were to do so!
Jack Winberg
Not in Sigma's best interest. Why should they share their crown jewels? Also what exactly have they done wrong with the DP2M? Nothing. Good luck to Sigma. Foveon is in good hands.
... it's good but so less flexible.
The RX100 (which I also have) is in an entirely different - lower - league. I cannot think of any situation where I would use the RX100 if the DP2M was even a remote posibility for the shot.
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The RX100 (which I also have) is in an entirely different - lower - league. I cannot think of any situation where I would use the RX100 if the DP2M was even a remote posibility for the shot.
I wouldn't either. My point is that I differentiate between "I know I'm going to take good shots" and "I feel I may get some nice shots".
Best DSLR for the former and flexible enthusiast compact for the latter. IMHO, these Sigmas may let me capture some great shots, and miss a whole lot more. That's it.
In any case, kudos to Sigma for their great technology. :)
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Thanks for your always spot on honesty. The SD1 was overpriced and full of bugs as you explained better than most. It is really interesting in how Sigma seems to be much more attentive now to their products pricing and performance. Kazuto Yamaki has done a lot of good stuff fixing the bugs and pricing of the SD1 and rolling out the Merrill series. I appreciate little things like the addition of CA correction in SPP to help with the sensitivity of the new generation X3 sensor. Plus all the products shipped in a timely manner unlike past monumental slips like the SD15 of over a year. The first folks are getting their DP1Ms yeah!
I look forward to what shows up at Photokina, many will prognosticate I hope the positive trend continues to flourish.
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There has been a LOT of discussion for some years now about Sigma's tenacious hold on the Foveon technology. There was some hope, with their recent change in leadership, that a licensing agreement with Nikon or Canon might be forthcoming, but it certainly does not appear to be in the works.
Alas, too bad, it would seem to be in everyone's best interests if they were to do so!
Jack Winberg
Even if they were willing, we have no idea if Nikon or Canon would be interested. Considering their investments in their current sensors it does seem they may have little interest in jumping to Terra Incognita with the Foveon. Also, if Sigma ever falls on hard times they can pick it up for a song.
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Michael, can you tell me how great the overcoverage of the Voigtlander optical VF is on the DP2M with its slightly longer focal length? Thinking of one of those or the one for the Sigma DP2 instead of trying to track down the official Sigma finder.
Thanks!
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Not a big deal for me. I just use it to judge the rough framing of a shot before turning on the camera.
Michael
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There has been a LOT of discussion for some years now about Sigma's tenacious hold on the Foveon technology. There was some hope, with their recent change in leadership, that a licensing agreement with Nikon or Canon might be forthcoming, but it certainly does not appear to be in the works.
Alas, too bad, it would seem to be in everyone's best interests if they were to do so!
Jack Winberg
Tenacious hold? Huh?
After the SD14/15 series sensor Sigma didn't give Foveon the time of day. Never mentioned any interest in any future sensors from Foveon. Foveon was out beating the bushes desperate to sell their technology to anyone. Talked with every major vendor. No one wanted the technology. Eventually Foveon ran out of cash and got acquired by Sigma for a song. At this point they appear very committed to continuing to develop and manufacture this technology. There is, however, absolutely no reason to imagine why any of the other vendors would have changed their opinion - likely none of them would license the technology if offered. It was already offered and they all refused.
Ken
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Hi, Michael. This may be a silly question, but have you tried the Sigma 30/2.8 EX DN on your NEX-7? That lens is almost identical in design to the DP2M's lens, outside of the rear correcting elements, and it is the sharpest lens I've used on the NEX-7. To quote someone else, it's like lifting a veil off of the NEX-7. I'd be curious if you've compared that lens on the NEX-7 with the DP2M's output. Thanks!
p.s. there is also a 19mm Sigma, but the design is not as similar as the DP1M's lens.
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Michael, many thanks for the Sigma DP2M review! ... I purchased the SD1 when they reduced the price, especially to work with infrared (but I have even more enjoyed using it for color).
Infrared? Now I am really interested if this is also available with the DP2M.
From what I am reading about the DP2M, it sounds like a right royal pain in the backside most of the time, but the image quality makes it all worthwhile - but if it is also easy to swap into infrared mode!!
Can anyone elaborate more for me on the infrared side of things for the DP2M please? Perhaps an update to your review Michael??
Good to read your review Michael on the DP2M, we are all wishing the best for you and a speedy recovery :)
Dave
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I'm not Michael (obviously), but I'd be really surprised if one could modify the DP2M for infrared use in the easy manner that is available for the SD1. The DP2M is an enclosed body with eensy screws that I think you'd have to be a watchmaker or camera repairman to want to fiddle with. The internal infrared-blocking filter in the SD1 is mounted in a frame (right in front of you when the lens is removed) and is easily popped out. I understand it is designed this way to facilitate cleaning the sensor, meaning Sigma actually expects owners to do this! The filter itself is very very thin and thus quite fragile, so I recommend care and caution in doing this. As the body of the DP2M is not intended to be opened, I would expect the filter to be more permanently installed. Also, I think you'd be frustrated trying to make out an image on the back screen. You need to use an external filter that blocks visible light. If it blocks everything, there is nothing to be seen, and you have to point the camera "blindly" and just hit the shutter. (This has actually worked fairly well for me, as you have a sense of the spread you are going to get in your image by knowing the focal length of the lens. Or you can mount another camera on your tripod with the same effective focal length -- and use that to level and frame your image -- then substitute the camera set up for infrared.) If that external filter admits a small amount of visible light (as one of my filters does) then, with the SD1, I put a black cloth over my head and the rear of the camera (a la a large format view camera), and you can then see barely enough in the optical viewfinder to frame the image. I think the DP2M's back screen would be too hard to read, under these conditions, to do this. Maybe Michael knows something else about the DP2M from his own explorations or any conversations he has had with Sigma. These experiments can be quite a bit of fun! And what innocent fun to boot! (Playing with infrared on a camera is a bit like being a kid again! The green summer scenes end up looking like they were taken in the middle of a winter snowstorm.) --Barbara
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You are correct in modifying a DP to take the IR filter out is only for those who know what they are doing or can afford to destroy a camera.
The SD series are a snap to convert, the only camera system I know of that can go back and forth without screwing an IR filter on the front. The filter is fragile, I broke one of mine once showing how it is done. Sigma will sell you a new one for about 35USD shipped.
The SD is only going to get better with the new lens series being tailored to deliver the kind of resolution that it is capable of. Where as the DP series will be the One Trick Ponies.
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I'm not Michael (obviously), but I'd be really surprised if one could modify the DP2M for infrared use in the easy manner that is available for the SD1. The DP2M is an enclosed body with eensy screws that I think you'd have to be a watchmaker or camera repairman to want to fiddle with.
--Barbara
Ah that's a shame, I suppose if I had fully engaged brain before asking, then the fixed lens aspect of the DP2M means I should have realised that already, but thanks for the info, I will put my cheque book back in to the drawer for the time being I think.
Dave
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Mr. Michael Reichmann your DP2M review has gotten this Man of Film out of "THE DARKROOM."
I 've been watching Luminous-Landscape with great interest. Very tempting all this digital photograhy, but it wasn't until the technology behind the DP2M started to shine in sharp definition, did my focus see "DIGITAL" as a useful tool for me. Thanks for the spark that gave me enough light to see beyond the DARKROOM. The names Contarex, Rolleiflex and Linhof, best decribes the formats I have been using since the mid 1960's. I'm looking forward to adding my first digital tool. Thanks and best regards.