Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on August 31, 2012, 01:35:42 am

Title: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on August 31, 2012, 01:35:42 am
The EBU/BBC Test reports on the Nikon D4 and D800 are out, and the results are very surprising, at least to me.

The D4 barely makes the grade, while the D800 fails completely. The D800E wasn't tested. Major reason: Aliasing.

Read my notes on the report here: http://wolfcrow.com/blog/nikon-d4-passes-but-the-d800-fails-the-ebubbc-broadcast-quality-test/

I have also included links to the actual reports in PDF for download.

Thoughts, anyone?
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: RFPhotography on August 31, 2012, 07:29:28 am
The 5D Mk II also 'failed' the BBC test.  It's been used to shoot an episode of a major Hollywood TV series and Showtime used it to shoot a major production on the annual Army/Navy football game.  Those are two significant instances that come immediately to mind.  There are likely others. 
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: ftbt on August 31, 2012, 09:33:25 am
The 5D Mk II also 'failed' the BBC test.  It's been used to shoot an episode of a major Hollywood TV series and Showtime used it to shoot a major production on the annual Army/Navy football game.  Those are two significant instances that come immediately to mind.  There are likely others.  

"Act of Valor" is another. (See: http://blog.planet5d.com/2012/02/act-of-valor-leap-of-faith/) And, with respect to the venerable BBC, according to Wikipedia:

"The BBC Two comedy series Shelfstackers, first broadcast on 4 September 2010, is the first BBC programme to use the camera. The corporation had initially refused its use due to "lack of quality" but were persuaded otherwise by the series' director, Dom Bridges. All six episodes of the series were shot on the camera for a total budget of £160,000."

George Lucas also used the camera for quite a few shots in his latest film that portrayed the Tuskegee Airmen, "Red Tails." And, an Oscar nominated documentary, "The Tsunami and the Cherry Blossom" was shot on the camera as well.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: RFPhotography on August 31, 2012, 09:51:26 am
Interesting.  Wasn't aware of the big screen production. 

The Beeb kind of makes a mockery of its own 'standards'. 

Pretty much tells you all you need to know about 'the BBC Test'.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on August 31, 2012, 10:36:26 am
I wish the picture were that rosy.

Surely if the camera was that good it would be used for ALL shots of a major motion picture. So far, no major movie has used a DSLR exclusively, unless it's a crash cam or a compromise. Every single person I know who use a DSLR for video do so because they can't afford anything else.

And if the one episode of House was shot with a 5D and they were so happy, surely they should have ported all the other shows to it - the rental and operating costs of an Alexa are much higher than a 5D. One should never underestimate the marketing clout of a major camera manufacturer.

And if BBC was that convinced about the 5D, surely they would allow all producers to submit DSLR footage carte blanche - but try submitting something to BBC with DSLR material. I know people who shoot for the BBC, and sometimes submit material from cameras that are not up to broadcast standards.

With the right connections, anything is possible. But that's sort of like the black market, isn't it? The good guys trying to get in through the front door are screwed. The fact remains that most of the time, if you are submitting to a major network, one of the dumbest things you could do is shoot on a system that was officially rejected by them. This is also true of PBS or ESPN or any other network.

What is most surprising to me is their acceptance of the D4 - that is a first, and totally unexpected. Its codec is only about 24 Mbps - that means they have to accept the FS100, the AF100 and every other AVCHD camera out there! The real answer, no one outside the EBU will know.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: RFPhotography on August 31, 2012, 11:26:32 am
When it comes to bitrate, you have to compare apples to apples.  AVCHD/MPEG4 is supposed to produce the quality of MPEG2 (what the standards are based on) at about half the bitrate. 

If you read the posted article on Act of Valor you'll see that the vast majority of it was shot with a 5D Mk II. 

As far as the Beeb, or any other network, allowing or disallowing DSLR video, it can take a long, long, long time to move stuck in the mud mindsets.

If everyone you know is using a DSLR for video because they can't afford anything else, then perhaps it's an indication that you need to broaden your range of acquaintances.  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: mac_paolo on August 31, 2012, 11:28:08 am
What is most surprising to me is their acceptance of the D4 - that is a first, and totally unexpected. Its codec is only about 24 Mbps - that means they have to accept the FS100, the AF100 and every other AVCHD camera out there! The real answer, no one outside the EBU will know.
It can output uncompressed stream via HDMI, so the low bitrate is not "the issue".
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: RFPhotography on August 31, 2012, 12:15:21 pm
It can output uncompressed stream via HDMI, so the low bitrate is not "the issue".

It doesn't seem that the uncompressed video is what was tested though.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on August 31, 2012, 11:11:46 pm

If everyone you know is using a DSLR for video because they can't afford anything else, then perhaps it's an indication that you need to broaden your range of acquaintances.  ;D

Yes, by a factor of a billion!!

Anyway, please read David Heath's excellent and informative reply here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/510356-nikon-d4-passes-but-d800-fails-ebu-bbc-broadcast-quality-test.html
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 01, 2012, 02:35:32 am
Hi,

My guess is that the primary issue is that both the D4 and D800 are intended for stills, and thus high resolution sensors with correct antialiasing filters for native resolution. The sensor output from the D4/D800 needs to be downsampled to 1920x1080 this is quite possible with optimum processing but needs correct antialiasing methods in software. I guess that the ASICS presently used are not really optimized for video.

Regarding the DR issue, we need to keep in mind that video is not a 14-bit raw data stream but is preprocessed into 8-bit. Tonal range is compressed while converting to 8 bit.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 01, 2012, 08:04:09 am
Regarding the DR issue, we need to keep in mind that video is not a 14-bit raw data stream but is preprocessed into 8-bit. Tonal range is compressed while converting to 8 bit.

Best regards
Erik

You're right, Erik. Line skipping is the culprit.

I did a comparison of RAW vs Technicolor Cinestyle vs H.264 here (http://wolfcrow.com/blog/technicolor-cinestyle-vs-neutral/) - still camera RAW is miles ahead.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Bern Caughey on September 01, 2012, 01:01:22 pm
I couldn't open the EBU PDF just now, but assume it was done by Alan Roberts. I'm not smart enough to fully evaluate his tests, but do know he often misses widely on actual tech specs.

I do understand the need for these standards, & respect them. Capture is only a small part of the chain, & any flaws can be exaggerated as the footage makes it's way to broadcast.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 01, 2012, 11:43:34 pm
Capture is only a small part of the chain, & any flaws can be exaggerated as the footage makes it's way to broadcast.

Good point, Bern. I feel the internet has a better delivery mechanism than broadcast today. With broadcast, a typical scenario is:


It's very surprising it still looks okay after all that abuse. Compared to that, the HDMI feed off a 7D or a D4/D800 should look great!
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 03, 2012, 12:10:35 pm
I always find broadcast standards, BBC or anywhere, any country, any client to be funny.  Sure they need a baseline, but when it comes to news coverage or documentary production if it suits them or the footage is unique or newsworthy, they'll accept footage from anything, including a smart phone.

We all see it all the time, shaky busted up footage of some reporter covering an event and If it's advertising they all accept anything as long as the client is paying.

But all of this is the dumbed down version and none of us aspire to shoot dumbed down, we aspire to shoot professionally and one thing that is missing in all of these standards is focus and lighting.

Nothing will make footage look better than professional lighting and camera movement, regardless of the capture device.  That's why SMALL  cinema/tv production crews are twenty five to 50 people.

I agree with both Bern and Sareesh.

Quality at the time of capture makes a huge difference up and down the chain.   You can't really get rid of moire or artifacts properly with any program, though quality can be defined in a lot of ways.

But quality of the output is more than just the file size, bit depth, bit rate, or compression, it's a combination of all of them, with (IMO) more heavily weighted towards capture bit depth and sharpness.

If you want to do your own test, take a professional still of the same motion scene and put the still in your editorial system at around 2500 pixels across.  Then look at it on a broadcast monitor compared to the motion footage and the still will usually look much better regardless of how your compress and downsize later.

You can do you own faux broadcast test, put a a video in m4v, in any size from 480 to 720 on the short side and play it through your apple TV on your home broadcast monitor.  Compared to what the cable and satellite companies stream at 1080i usually the wireless apple TV footage looks as good, or better.

Regardless, as Bern says, the better your start the better you usually finish and really all of this usually comes down to budget.  Everyone will mention the House episode shot on a 5D, but the crew wasn't cut down and the process was just as expensive in post.

Same with Act Of Valor, http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2012/05/act-of-valor-workflow/   

There might have been a savings in shooting with 5d's due to the multiple cameras, but just a few of those fluid heads or one panavision lens can costs more than all the cameras combined.

When you factor in the extra post work, much of which the workflow was ground breaking and make it up as you go, but they did a tremendous job and used those little cameras to the best of their abilities and don't think the BBC won't air this movie.

Anyway, this was a test I did early on with a 5d2 comparing the still capture vs. the video capture on the same exact scene and the 5d shoots soft compared to the stills.  Looks good in motion, but the still frame from the motion footage is soft and does some crazy stuff like the black hole in the blowout of the practical lights in the background, where the still image of the same scene is much sharper with less issues.

http://ishotit.com/rundsmc.jpg

IMO


BC

Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 03, 2012, 11:01:52 pm

Anyway, this was a test I did early on with a 5d2 comparing the still capture vs. the video capture on the same exact scene and the 5d shoots soft compared to the stills.  Looks good in motion, but the still frame from the motion footage is soft and does some crazy stuff like the black hole in the blowout of the practical lights in the background, where the still image of the same scene is much sharper with less issues.

http://ishotit.com/rundsmc.jpg

IMO
BC

The black hole is weird! How did that happen?
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 05, 2012, 02:38:50 pm
The black hole is weird! How did that happen?

I'm not an engineer, though I saw this early on with 6mp still capture where there is a specular light in the background that is overexposed.

Maybe it's from the line skipping of the 5d2, but someone that makes this stuff should know.

When I did this test I was only trying to compare the output of the 1080 footage vs. the still footage.  Actually I was trying to see if I should go upstream and buy the REDs of stay with the Canons 5d2 (soon to be 3).

I went with RED's and use the Canon as a small car mount, tight area cam.

Actually, it seems all of the high end camera world is "on sale" today.  I know you can buy lightly used RED 1's MX at about $16,000 and Scarlets at about the same price, which with all my shooting and tests produces a much nicer file than any dslr or lower priced 2k cameras.

A used RED looks even more attractive by the time you completely kit a dslr out with matte boxes, rails, sound inputs/mixers, hdmi out recorders, etc.  I probably spent double on the 5d2 in accessories than I did on the camera and built up for professional work a dslr is lighter than any RED but not smaller.

Canon USA sent out an e-mail today where the C-300 is offered at 0% interest, so it may be the economy, or the dog days of summer, but high end cameras in still and digital video are priced to sell today.



IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 05, 2012, 11:23:48 pm

Actually, it seems all of the high end camera world is "on sale" today.  I know you can buy lightly used RED 1's MX at about $16,000 and Scarlets at about the same price, which with all my shooting and tests produces a much nicer file than any dslr or lower priced 2k cameras.

A used RED looks even more attractive by the time you completely kit a dslr out with matte boxes, rails, sound inputs/mixers, hdmi out recorders, etc.  I probably spent double on the 5d2 in accessories than I did on the camera and built up for professional work a dslr is lighter than any RED but not smaller.

Canon USA sent out an e-mail today where the C-300 is offered at 0% interest, so it may be the economy, or the dog days of summer, but high end cameras in still and digital video are priced to sell today.

IMO

BC

Agree 80% - I'd take a Red One over a C300 any day - only for its colors and tonality. I use the C300 and hate its look when 'strained'.

20% - Kitting up a Red One is hyper-expensive, even today. Very soon the accessories will get dearer too.

The worse thing about Red is its service. When my Canon DSLR had a scratch on its sensor, I went to the Canon repair center and got a new sensor in one week. I would factor in maintenance and post production costs with the Red - definitely worth it but no comparison with DSLR-budgeted projects.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 06, 2012, 03:53:18 am


20% - Kitting up a Red One is hyper-expensive, even today. Very soon the accessories will get dearer too.

The worse thing about Red is its service. When my Canon DSLR had a scratch on its sensor, I went to the Canon repair center and got a new sensor in one week. I would factor in maintenance and post production costs with the Red - definitely worth it but no comparison with DSLR-budgeted projects.

Red's service is kind of funky, but very detailed and yes some of their pricing is off the wall silly.  Those little magic arms on the RED one break.  It's just a screw that strips, but to get them to look at it cost like $75 and then they charge to fix it.  I can buy it from a third party for $150 so it doesn't make any sense, when it's just a screw and no they will not sell the screw.

As far as rods, matte boxes, mini xlr to full xlr adapters, batteries, etc. it's all available third party and cost no more or less than any other camera, also most of the used MX RED 1's are for sale with all the accessories.

I'm not pushing RED, I'm just saying if treated well an R1 will last a lot of years, (at least that's my plan) and it's a real 4k camera, with a real processing suite and more latitude than any camera still or motion, I've used.   

That stuff goes a long way to kind of future proofing a purchase and R1's are falling out of the trees for sale.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 06, 2012, 11:03:18 pm
This time I agree 100%. The Red One has definitely passed the 'reliability' stage.

Have you worked with the Epic? Unfortunately I haven't even seen one yet. I'm liking the skin tones and DR from it. Is it similar to R1?
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 07, 2012, 11:37:08 am
This time I agree 100%. The Red One has definitely passed the 'reliability' stage.

Have you worked with the Epic? Unfortunately I haven't even seen one yet. I'm liking the skin tones and DR from it. Is it similar to R1?

No, I had an Epic on order, ready for delivery and I changed my mind and bought a second Red 1 and a Scarlet.

The R1's are reliable, the Scarlet then and somewhat now is a work in progress.

As far as the look, both the Scarlet and Red 1's have the MX sensor and should look the same, though the Scarlet has RED gamma 3 which is flatter and softer, (though now with a firmware update so do the R1's have red gamma 3).

Obviously you can change the gamma input settings in processing, though the R1's I usually process out in standard Red Gamma because to me, it looks like Cinema film where the Scarlet looks not just flat but somewhat video like, I can't really explain it until you see it.

The Scarlet is smaller, uses Canon lenses, doesn't autofocus well, (if that's important to you) and has to have a workaround to use even mini xlrs, as it has those awful Iphone type of mini sound plugs that pop and crackle if you look at them wrong.

I love the R1's, the Scarlet I almost sold, then think well, Red is good at finally getting there with firmware updates, but I use the R-1's most of the time.

The thing about the R1's is compared to most digital video cameras (except the Arri) they can be big so I have one outfitted for a solid mount with PL lenses and sticks and battery mount on camera etc., then I have the second R-1 stripped down with a still camera lens shade, small Zeiss still camera lenses battery, on a belt clip and a shoulder mount for hand holding which only is about 3 lbs heavier than an Epic or Scarlet, which is more than manageable.

The beauty of the zeiss zf still camera lenses is they have a short focus throw so tracking someone down the block to a few feet from the lens is much easier if your pulling focus yourself.  The PL mount works better if you have a dedicated person to pull focus remotely.

The thing I really dislike about the Scarlet is the glossy screen.  Working outside you track with someone and spin the camera and all of a sudden all you see is your face.  It's just amazingly annoying and wrecks the shot.

I also heard a lot of stories about the reliability of the R1's but I've used both of mine in incredibly extreme conditions without issue (knock on wood).

Bottom line is I don't own an Epic though the Scarlet is pretty close in form and function.  I just think the 50 grand cameras are getting kind of silly, for any production.

Without knowing the specs I even think the new 30 grand 4k Canon is overkill on price. IMO.

Second bottom line is I'll take two RED1's around the world (done that) and not worry.  I'll even take an R1 and a Scarlet around the world (done that) and not worry because I always have the R1.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 08, 2012, 12:17:16 am
Nikon D800 used in Dexter and Wilfred. That figures!
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 08, 2012, 12:37:44 am
I love the R1's, the Scarlet I almost sold, then think well, Red is good at finally getting there with firmware updates, but I use the R-1's most of the time.
...
Second bottom line is I'll take two RED1's around the world (done that) and not worry.  I'll even take an R1 and a Scarlet around the world (done that) and not worry because I always have the R1.

IMO

BC

The new Dragon update, whenever it finally hits, should boost Scarlet's capabilities - if the Epic example is anything to go by. Do you use a Red rocket for dailies and such?
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 08, 2012, 02:42:27 am
The new Dragon update, whenever it finally hits, should boost Scarlet's capabilities - if the Epic example is anything to go by. Do you use a Red rocket for dailies and such?

I'm not unhappy with the Scarlet Sensor.   It already seems a stop faster than the R-1's which seem to top out at 1,000 iso or so.

I just think it looks kind of flat and video like where the R1's just look different and I think prettier out of camera and with grading.

Also the Scarlet starts up 10 times faster is a few pounds to 5 lbs. lighter, does have semi functional autofocus if the subject is still and allows Canon lenses as well as PL's, though no Nikon mount.

What I don't like is the Glossy screen which I find very problematic and the touch screen navigation when your in a hurry is kind of goofy, but it does work.

I do have a hard time getting past the mini sound jacks instead of xlr's of any size.   There are adapters by RED and others that allow xlr to the mini jacks for less stress on the wires when shooting, or in RED's case a an i/o module for $3,750 that fits on the back of the camera to give xlr in and out which adds to the weight and size of the camera, almost the size of the R-1.    

So at the end of the day, the $14,000 camera becomes a $20,000 camera by the time you add larger batteries and the SSd module and you have to have large SSD on camera storage for any RED because of the files size, which is large but less than some non compressed 4:2:2 alternatives.

Though as I said R-1's are falling out of the trees at good prices.

The Scarlet and Epic are set up to be modular cameras which is good because you can update without changing the whole camera, though as you said every hardware change and update on RED is expensive, though firmware and software updates and changes are free.

We usually one light grade and process with the RED rocket cards.  One in a desktop that is pretty much one to one fast and gives up to 4k resolution if required.  One is in a portable box, nested in our DIT station which has two powerbooks, drives, APS backup, even fans and keyboard lights.

The portable RED rocket does only 2k but once again one light out at real time.  All RED rockets let you scrub or play the footage in real time.

If I'm on a computer without a REd Rocket card and the clips are short and the computer has a good video card, I'll just process them out there as it's not brutal in transcoding time, just not real time.

All of the RED's take some time to learn the setup and menus.  The R-1 menu seems clunky at first but I think is easier and more thought out than the scarlet and I feel very secure that everything is locked and stays locked on the R-1.

The Scarlet which is touch screen sometimes has some slow movements in settings and it's easy to hit a spot and not lock a setting or set up something wrong.

The R-1 I learned in a day, the Scarlet is the only camera I've every owned (still or motion) where I had to read the complete manual.

The Scarlet has some glitches . . .  Red is good though and has a new firmware update almost weekly and they updates are listed as Beta or ready for production, so there are few glitches.  RED is also very good with service, though can be slow and some of RED's business practices in how they accept payment and wait lists can be trying.

Compare RED to Sony's 4k or even the Arri, both of which are very expensive, or Sony's less expensive new 4k camera that is said to shoot uncompressed which can be nightmarish on data storage.

Then you have Canon, whose new 4k camera body starts at $30,000 and well, RED still seems like a good deal.   Maybe not a bargain, but a good deal.

For some reason RED is polarizing.  People love them or hate them but like the man said, you can't deny them.

End of the day RED is a very serious film maker's company.  There cameras and truly innovative, priced very reasonable in the film world.  

RED opened the door for film makers to use real film making cameras at high end still camera prices.  They really did change the game and the whole RED process may change from thought to final but the end product is very well thought out from capture to output and RED shows no sign of making any camera obsolete just for the sake of forcing anyone to a new camera.  

That I find refreshing in the digital world.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 09, 2012, 01:30:52 am
That's an excellent real world review. I did work with the Red One early last year and was blown away. I want to try the Epic but none of the projects I do warrant it, unfortunately.


I do have a hard time getting past the mini sound jacks instead of xlr's of any size.   There are adapters by RED and others that allow xlr to the mini jacks for less stress on the wires when shooting, or in RED's case a an i/o module for $3,750 that fits on the back of the camera to give xlr in and out which adds to the weight and size of the camera, almost the size of the R-1.    

I hate TRS connectors on anything that moves or gets stepped on. It's good for the studio, but not on the field.

You could try using a DI box like this one (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000A8J3N2/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000A8J3N2&linkCode=as2&tag=sareesh-20) from Radial. This is a device that cuts down on unnecessary crackles or pops due to ground loops. An impedence matched box will connect to your amp or recorder.

Otherwise the best way afaik is to keep the jacks clean and avoid touching or moving them - but that's not totally practical on a day to day basis.

Quote
We usually one light grade and process with the RED rocket cards.  One in a desktop that is pretty much one to one fast and gives up to 4k resolution if required.  One is in a portable box, nested in our DIT station which has two powerbooks, drives, APS backup, even fans and keyboard lights.

The portable RED rocket does only 2k but once again one light out at real time.  All RED rockets let you scrub or play the footage in real time.

If I'm on a computer without a REd Rocket card and the clips are short and the computer has a good video card, I'll just process them out there as it's not brutal in transcoding time, just not real time.

Can you share your desktop specs? What kind of read/write performance (in MB/s) do you get with it? Is it on a RAID?

My current home setup is in desperate need of an overhaul. I don't use it for professional work, but I'd like to play with 4K footage in real time if I can!

Quote
For some reason RED is polarizing.  People love them or hate them but like the man said, you can't deny them.

IMO

BC

Yes, definitely. Red has been an inspiration when others had gone to sleep. But the giants have woken up now.

And Red has answered with the Dragon update, and a monochrome camera - that's potentially 8K if the Leica M Monochrom analogy were to apply.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 09, 2012, 01:07:03 pm
That's an excellent real world review. I did work with the Red One early last year and was blown away. I want to try the Epic but none of the projects I do warrant it, unfortunately.

snip.

Can you share your desktop specs? What kind of read/write performance (in MB/s) do you get with it? Is it on a RAID?

My current home setup is in desperate need of an overhaul. I don't use it for professional work, but I'd like to play with 4K footage in real time if I can!

Yes, definitely. Red has been an inspiration when others had gone to sleep. But the giants have woken up now.

And Red has answered with the Dragon update, and a monochrome camera - that's potentially 8K if the Leica M Monochrom analogy were to apply.



I've never used an Epic so can't say really anything about it, though I believe it's exactly the same form factor and lcd as the Scarlet, which some parts I like, some I don't.

I know a lot of dps have moved to the Epic and some back to an R1 or an Arri for the "look" and "look can cover a lot of territory in motion imagery.

When I ordered an Epic and it was ready to ship, I changed my mind and went with one more RED 1 and a Scarlet.  I looked at the Specs of the Epic and it's native sensor is 2:1 instead of 16x9 so cropped 16x9 your not at 5k your at around 4.5 K or something like that.

You can go to 120 fps which is the one benefit of the Epic, though I've needed that like two times and the R1 will go to 60 fps with 3k.   

So the only benefit I saw from an R-1 to an Epic was fps, and there a lot lot of ways to get to slow motion.   Even the weight is not that much different as a stripped down R1 weighs a little over 8lbs, with Nikon mount Zeiss and a Canon mount Scarlet/Epic comes it at 5 lbs.

2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, not many films at any level on any device or medium are playing at 4k and I've seen 4k production on a first class Hollywood screen and honestly once they go through the digital intermediate with effects, grading etc. etc., I couldn't tell that it was 4k.   It wasn't a Eureka moment for me

though I'm sure Ill eventually have clients ask for 4k, in the broadcast world I don't think 4k will be mainstream for another decade.  Look how long it took to switch to Hi-def (in it's many flavors) and looked how dumb down the translation and transmission is on cable or satellite,.


I bought a Scarlet not to be a poor man's epic, but to be a smaller form factor and was hoping for better autofocus. 

I think the world of RED's innovations but given what we shoot and how we shoot, if I had the perfect camera it would be a Sony FS 100 with a RED sensor (or a Sony with better color and not so ambient sensitive).

I don't even mind the build quality of the fS 100 because except for my R-1's I don't think any of these cameras are built for the long term and I'd love to see some real innovation on focus pulling like face detection tracking.

Actually the FS100 will track focus the best of any camera I've used, but that's not to say it's perfect, just real good in a pinch.


As far as computers, I don't have the exact specs in front of me, but they range from one early intel quad core box to two of the next to latest 12 cores.   We run one main station to a Raid 0 backed up to another Raid 0.

I never compare or time read/write though it seems with the Rocket it's always about 1 to 1, with a fast I mac I7 (obviously no Rocket card) it's about 3 to 1.

Our building is wired for the latest cat and I should put this stuff on a network, but that's just another $10,000 and another thing to worry about.

For drives we've kind of gotten over the heavy Raid thing.  I have 18 4 disc Raid 5's I've used for backup for a few years, but now everything goes on a Lacie-1 terabyte rugged.  They don't seem any slower than raid 0's and we can isolate each project, or parts of the project down to each drive.

Drive 1 raw footage and usually processed one light footage or proxy's, drive 2 graphics and edit, drive 3 render.    Then back them up to a larger drive every night.  I don't see one bit of speed difference between a normal drive and a Raid 0.

In regards to video cards It doesn't matter than much with the RED files as we have RED Rockets, but obviously a faster card helps.  Where a faster card really works is with CS suite and I'd look at their specs.

Actually, for speed we have three I-macs two I-7's and those process out fairly quickly, not real time, but I'd say about 3 to 1 which isn't bad considering the price of the computer and size.


Since Apple seems to have abandoned the professional imaging market, the next station we build will probably be pc, but pc's tricked out with cards, ram, software, monitors and drives are not cheap.  You can get to 15 to 20 grand very, very, quickly.

But that will be a while as we are very well learned in FCP 7, (loathe FCP X) and really have just messed with but not gone deep into premier or AVID.

At this stage I don't see any reason to go to anything but Premier (personal opinion) because AVID does pretty much the same but is a steeper learning curve.

Still in so many ways FCP 7 is the most elegant and intuitive of all the NLE's when you need to do a lot of things.

I really don't have the time to be a full time editor and lay that task off to either someone in house or outside, depending on the scope of the project.

I cut the original style cut, for client approval and sometimes even in the treatment stage and then oversee the edit but don't usually just sit down and edit for 12 hours straight every day. 

I've done it, but I just don't want to go down that road.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Morgan_Moore on September 09, 2012, 07:26:15 pm
Face tracking - try the Nex5n , the image is better than the 5d2

Im loving it

Latest colour out of the FS100 ..  PWD pixel https://vimeo.com/49049691

and a coupla nex5n shots.

I still dont get why Scarlet is not rated... 'flat'

I mean just chuck up the curve right?

S
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 09, 2012, 10:58:25 pm
Morgan, do you know where I could download some 'true' 60fps footage from the FS100 - not the re-timed compressed versions on Youtube/vimeo, but raw footage out of the camera? Would appreciate any pointers. Thanks.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Morgan_Moore on September 09, 2012, 11:26:29 pm
PM me with an FTP URL
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 10, 2012, 12:18:19 am
Thanks, BC! Info is definitely helpful. I'm personally looking at something like RAID 10.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 10, 2012, 12:52:57 am
PM me with an FTP URL

I haven't used FTP in years, unfortunately. Any possibility to upload it via https://www.yousendit.com/ ? Sorry for the trouble.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 10, 2012, 03:47:04 am
Thanks, BC! Info is definitely helpful. I'm personally looking at something like RAID 10.

Sareesh,

Unless you are going to run a large to medium size effects/editorial house, be careful of Raid 5s, 0s, 10s etc and if you are running a large house then go with a central system that everyone can access.

I know, I know everyone will tell you have to use very fast drives, striped raids, fiber optics, etc. etc., but honestly even with up to date editorial systems most of the heavy lifting is either done by the cores and cup, or the GP?U or specific render cards like the Rocket.

You'll notice more with a GPU upgrade than a 10,000 rpm raid 0 system.

Now, we are still running old ghetto sneakers, fcp 7 which uses about 1/10th of 2 cores and only 4 gigs of ram, but even with that I can see more speed with a video card than I can a drive.  In fact just running the render to one clean drive alone will speed up the process 5 fold.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything, but in motion post production, money can fly out the window in seconds.  One raid 0, per project?  ok now two for a backup or should I say three with one offsite to be safe.  Then you have deadlines, media gets placed on the main drive but never makes it to the backups, you hand a backup off to a colleague and say tighten this up and 1/10th of the media is not there. 

Get the picture.

Or you go back to a locked edit for client changes and well, the list goes on and the money flies, then about the time you have the perfect setup with i/o boxes, raids, fast drives, the "proper video card", render cards, etc. the software changes and your back to changing the system again.

If you run multiple seats you have to change them all and a RED is starting to look cheap. 

Not trying to be negative, but keep it simple, keep it backed up and keep it profitable.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Having raw footage is a blessing not a curse (regardless of what Arri will tell you) and a few more things about the Scarlet/Epic.  Forever they would not replay the sound in camera, which is a bloody fright and the fans run all the time.  Usually not noticeable but on a tight shot it is.

Something to think about.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 10, 2012, 07:05:44 am
One raid 0, per project?  ok now two for a backup or should I say three with one offsite to be safe.  Then you have deadlines, media gets placed on the main drive but never makes it to the backups, you hand a backup off to a colleague and say tighten this up and 1/10th of the media is not there. 

LOL...I feel you.

Quote

Unless you are going to run a large to medium size effects/editorial house, be careful of Raid 5s, 0s, 10s etc and if you are running a large house then go with a central system that everyone can access.

I know, I know everyone will tell you have to use very fast drives, striped raids, fiber optics, etc. etc., but honestly even with up to date editorial systems most of the heavy lifting is either done by the cores and cup, or the GP?U or specific render cards like the Rocket.

You'll notice more with a GPU upgrade than a 10,000 rpm raid 0 system.

Oh no, nothing so fancy. The system that I'm thinking of building is only a personal project - mostly a media streamer with redundancy.

But I'd like it to playback an R3D 5K file in full resolution (3:1 compression @ 60fps) if I can make it happen - without the Rocket! Call it an experiment or a crazy whim.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: RFPhotography on September 15, 2012, 07:56:30 pm
So back to the original topic of this thread, I'm watching an episode of "The Newsroom" last night.  For those who don't know it's a series produced by HBO in the U.S.  In one scene, two of the main characters are in an office talking and on the window of the office is a horizontal blind.  MASSIVE moiré in the blind. 

A big aspect of what brings some of these DSLRs down is moiré.  Then when I see something like this in a major TV production it makes you wonder.  I don't know what this series is shot with but I'm expecting it's not DSLRs. 

The Beeb (and other media outlets) have significant capital invested in camera hardware.  It leads me to wonder whether these 'tests' are more an exercise in self-preservation rather than a determinant of image quality.  Do some 'tests', say that DSLRs don't meet the grade and there's never any worry about having to justify $100,000 in camera gear when $5k might suffice.  Never any worry about 'wannabes' pitching ideas that are shot with 'inferior' equipment cutting their grass. 
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on September 15, 2012, 11:41:31 pm
...MASSIVE moiré in the blind. 

A big aspect of what brings some of these DSLRs down is moiré.  Then when I see something like this in a major TV production it makes you wonder.  I don't know what this series is shot with but I'm expecting it's not DSLRs. 

The Beeb (and other media outlets) have significant capital invested in camera hardware.  It leads me to wonder whether these 'tests' are more an exercise in self-preservation rather than a determinant of image quality.  Do some 'tests', say that DSLRs don't meet the grade and there's never any worry about having to justify $100,000 in camera gear when $5k might suffice.  Never any worry about 'wannabes' pitching ideas that are shot with 'inferior' equipment cutting their grass. 

Not all moire is caused in camera. Some are caused by incorrect digitization (resampling) and encoding. Some are caused due to the television itself. Some are due to your eyes (unlikely on consumer monitors).

I don't know about Newsroom, but the broadcast quality criteria is usually not applied to news footage.

Just wondering though: what would the kickback on a DSLR be? The strange thing I've noticed is that manufacturers hype their low end cameras and their 4K cameras for feature film makers, but you don't see much buzz on broadcast cameras like the HDC1500 or so. Maybe they don't want people asking too many questions like: Why is the F65 cheaper than the HDC1500?
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Morgan_Moore on September 16, 2012, 10:13:01 am
I don't know much of the broadcast process but indeed I think the problems can be amplified down the chain.

Also I don't see why an appropriate softening filter cannot be applied before those processes.

Obviously this had not happened on that show -whatever the camera.

To drift OT but stick with nikon the D600 looks quite interesting

Especially to me as my D3 is getting a bit saggy, but could be kept as a high framerate grabber cam when needed.

S





Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: bcooter on September 16, 2012, 02:44:28 pm
So back to the original topic of this thread, I'm watching an episode of "The Newsroom" last night.  For those who don't know it's a series produced by HBO in the U.S.  In one scene, two of the main characters are in an office talking and on the window of the office is a horizontal blind.  MASSIVE moiré in the blind. 

The newsroom is shot with three Arri Alexas that produce a 4:2:2 uncompressed prorezz, running through the Wireless Boxx system to the trailer.

5 days in studio, with two days on location in NYC.

Since the moire you saw is probably a studio shot, I doubt if it came through on the original footage, even though the Alexa is a 2k camera.  It probably is a result from crappy transcoding on the network to the cable to your screen, or your screen doesn't have the resolution to not see moire.

You see this all the time in broadcast and cable/satellite delivery. 

IMO

BC

P.S.  Episodic TV production is now edited almost as if it was a real time news show.  They place trailer's between studios in LA lots, all running hot with footage coming in as they shoot and doing rough edits that are completed by the end of the day.

The Alexa is popular for a lot of reasons, one because it's an Arri and familiar with a lot of DP's, another because it shoots a prorezz file ready for editing as a proxy without going through a step of processing like a RED Raw. I believe that's why RED is producing a box that will convert a RED raw to a prorezz file on the fly.

Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: RFPhotography on September 16, 2012, 02:57:27 pm
I think I'd be a bit surprised if it were something at HBO's end.  Compression by my cable company I could buy. 
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: smthopr on September 16, 2012, 03:10:04 pm
I've never seen objectionable moire from files shot with RED, Alexa, or even HD broadcast cameras when projected on theater screens.

I have seen very objectionable moire from DSLR video. From the DSLR, everything looks great...until it doesn't and the moire is a huge distraction.

I suspect in the case of "Newsroom", it's an artifact of re-scaling / compression somewhere along the delivery pipeline.
Title: Re: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test
Post by: Bern Caughey on September 22, 2012, 01:45:19 pm
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?290828-Internal-codec-compared-to-external-ProRes-220&p=1986209732&viewfull=1#post1986209732