Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Shrev94412 on August 06, 2012, 11:48:25 pm

Title: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Shrev94412 on August 06, 2012, 11:48:25 pm
I was wondering if anyone had a suggestion on best pens or pencils to sign prints. I print typically on Epson 9900 or 4880 using Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper. I would prefer the signature to look like it was signed with a pencil but i cannot get a pencil to write very well on that paper. Any Suggestions?

I hope this is the best place to post this help request. If not, please advise. Thanks
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Ken on August 06, 2012, 11:56:23 pm
The only thing I have found to work on everything is the Pilot G-Tec-C4 pen. You have to let the writing dry at least 30 seconds before touching it or it will smudge.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Dano Steinhardt on August 07, 2012, 12:23:04 am
Exhibition Fiber is a microporous paper and as you mentioned only a pen will work.

Many who sign works on microporous papers use Pigma pens.

Pigma pens are pigment based and acid free.

More info in the link below.

I learned the hard way to be cautious of pens that are only labeled as "permanent".  In some cases, "permanent" refers only to waterfastness, not lightfastness.

http://www.sakuraofamerica.com/Pen-Archival/

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager
Epson America, Inc.


Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on August 07, 2012, 04:02:05 am

I learned the hard way to be cautious of pens that are only labeled as "permanent".  In some cases, "permanent" refers only to waterfastness, not lightfastness.

http://www.sakuraofamerica.com/Pen-Archival/

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager
Epson America, Inc.


Dano,

Your concern about the lightfastness of the signing pen ink is worth some praise but it would be nice if the paper white of Epson Exhibition Fiber (Signature Worthy category) showed a good lightfastness too. It does not in practice as has been more often mentioned.  It actually has the worst paper white stability of all papers tested by Aardenburg Imaging and there are even differences between batches on that aspect.

Edit, to add the relevant data:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/104718

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update july 2012: Moab changes, paper sorting by name
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: PhR on August 07, 2012, 07:36:42 am
I use two refillable pens that I fill with some ink from my ConeColor ink bottles. For matte paper I have a pen with matte black and for glossy, another one with photo black. They are very consistent with my Epson printer : they can clogg if I do not use them often enough :-) This way my signature should last as long as the print...

Philippe
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Mark D Segal on August 07, 2012, 09:26:01 am
Dano,

Your concern about the lightfastness of the signing pen ink is worth some praise but it would be nice if the paper white of Epson Exhibition Fiber (Signature Worthy category) showed a good lightfastness too. It does not in practice as has been more often mentioned.  It actually has the worst paper white stability of all papers tested by Aardenburg Imaging and there are even differences between batches on that aspect.

Edit, to add the relevant data:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/104718

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update july 2012: Moab changes, paper sorting by name

I thought this thread is seeking advice about pens, not OBA degradation. What's the connection?
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on August 07, 2012, 10:17:45 am
I thought this thread is seeking advice about pens, not OBA degradation. What's the connection?

The connection is the concern about the lightfastness of the pen ink on a paper that does not have the basic lightfastness to make someone worry about the pen ink. Throw in the Epson created paper category Signature Worthy and Dano as an Epson representative here and I see enough connections.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update july 2012: Moab changes, paper sorting by name
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Mark D Segal on August 07, 2012, 10:22:53 am
Frankly Ernst, the two things are completely unrelated. A pen ink can be lightfast whether the OBAs are permanent or fade, and the contribution from Dan Steinhardt was very simply a helpful response to what the OP wanted to know. But you've made your point and I've made mine, so I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: MHMG on August 07, 2012, 10:24:01 am
Exhibition Fiber is a microporous paper and as you mentioned only a pen will work.

Many who sign works on microporous papers use Pigma pens.

Pigma pens are pigment based and acid free.

More info in the link below.

I learned the hard way to be cautious of pens that are only labeled as "permanent".  In some cases, "permanent" refers only to waterfastness, not lightfastness.

http://www.sakuraofamerica.com/Pen-Archival/


+1 for the micron pigma pens. I use them to mark samples in my light fade tests, and the black pigment holds up exceptionally well. Haven't tested other Pigma colors, but then again, for the purposes of signing prints, black ink is a common choice.

Another good pen for this purpose is the Staedtler Lumocolor pen (http://www.staedtler.com/Lumocolor_permanent_universal_pen_gb , again, I have only experience with the black ink). Whereas the Pigma pens are technical drawing pens which produce a very consistent fine line width, the Staedtler lumocolor is more of a felt tip pen which produces somewhat wider line width and with more line width variation as one applies varying pressure to the tip. This leads to a signature aesthetic somewhat more approaching calligraphy whereas the Pigma pens provide an appearance of precise craftsmanship. Depending on artist's intent, size of print and nature of the art, you may find reasons to have both pen types on hand.

As, Dano pointed out "permanent" marking pens commonly mean water resistant (ie. can go through the laundry without bleeding much), but not necessarily lightfast. What's more disingenuous is when pen makers call their pens "archival" which implies both water fastness and lightfastness yet the ink doesn't deserve such labeling. I've run into numerous pens in that category. The two brands noted above are good safe bets for signing on microporous inkjet media.

Lastly, +1 for the wise approach taken by Phillipe by repurposing some of the black inkjet ink and using it in a refillable pen. This approach does provide a reasonable guarantee that the signature will hold up at least as well as the print under whatever storage and display conditions the print is subjected to over time.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: MHMG on August 07, 2012, 11:12:10 am
The only thing I have found to work on everything is the Pilot G-Tec-C4 pen. You have to let the writing dry at least 30 seconds before touching it or it will smudge.

As I understand it, this G-Tec Pen uses Pilot's gel type ink formulation. I've tried a roller-ball pen version of this Pilot Gel type ink. Writes great on most all inkjet media, but lightfastness is very poor. It doesn't really seem to fade to a lighter color so much as it just seems to "evaporate" or "ablate" in my light fade tests. The line width gets skinnier and skinnier until the writing breaks down into disconnected lines and finally disappears altogether.  Strange light fading behavior!

regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: KeithR on August 07, 2012, 08:35:56 pm
After reading peoples replies a while back, to the age old question of what to use, I decided to try the Pigma Micron pens. They were fine but I found them drying out very fast so I kept looking. I was in an art supply store(Dick Blick-I think) last fall and tried out a few of the brands they had on hand(including the PM) and came upon the Prismacolor Premire. The label lists Archival, Acid Free, & lightfast. Conforms to ASTM D-4236, Non-Toxic. Many colors and widths(I pick the .03 & .05) in black. Very nice, resonably priced and hasn't dried out!
From the Dick Blick site:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/prismacolor-premier-illustration-markers/?clickTracking=true
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Shrev94412 on August 08, 2012, 02:10:42 pm
Thanks everyone for all the responses. Once again proves how valuable the LL resource is and all the wonderful people that are a part of the photography community. I will try out some of the suggestions as indicated above. Thanks!
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: BarbaraArmstrong on August 09, 2012, 05:01:21 pm
I have recently been using a Copic Multiliner in a 0.3 width in a cool gray.  It is described as being pigment-based, waterproof and archival.  I much prefer using something in gray (and a softer or lighter gray at that) rather than black, as I feel the softer look distracts less from the image (and actually looks more like the "traditional" signature in pencil).  I haven't had enough experience with it to know how "archival" it is; I've been hoping.  --Barbara
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Luca Ragogna on August 10, 2012, 09:31:48 pm
Go to any art store and buy any pigment based marker.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: JohnHeerema on August 13, 2012, 11:11:33 pm
What I often do, may or may not be artistically valid - I sign using a pressure-sensitive tablet, and print the signature along with the print (purists, feel free to cringe). This lets me use any colour I want, and lets me re-do the signature if I don't like it.

Now, if I sign each print individually, does it  count as an original signature? :)
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Ken on August 14, 2012, 12:53:48 am
"I sign using a pressure-sensitive tablet, and print the signature along with the print (purists, feel free to cringe)."

I don't know of any gallery that considers a printed signature as "signed".
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Richard.Wills on August 14, 2012, 08:13:14 am
Has any one (Mark) tested the stability of Rotring technical inks - here in Europe, they were the alternate to the Mars_Steadtler pens for line work. I'd always assumed the inks to be good long lasting pigments.

They offer an art pen, which is a calligraphy nib pen, which can be loaded up with the technical inks http://www.rotring.com/en/produkte/technisches_zeichnen/zubehoer.php (http://www.rotring.com/en/produkte/technisches_zeichnen/zubehoer.php) - might make a nice combination of permanence (or load with Epson / Cone inks) with creative flourish.

(We run out a fair number of artist prints on our 9800 and 8300, and often get the question of what to use)
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on August 14, 2012, 08:50:30 am
The Mars Staedtler Marsmatic 700 can be filled with inkjet inks and so can similar Rötring types.  I use them with black and lighter gray Vivera pigment inks for retouching and on gloss and finer matte coatings they can be used for signing. On any rougher paper surfaces they tend to scrape and get clogged with the coating. Usually signing here is done with B6 pencils on the matte coatings. The inkjet inks behave better in the pens than the original inks in my experience but lately two were clogged which was undone with an ultrasonic bath.


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update july 2012: Moab changes, paper sorting by name
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: AndyS on August 14, 2012, 02:56:48 pm
Interesting to hear that majority of responses are based around pigment ink pens. I have to confess that I normally use 3B pencil, having assumed that carbon is fairly stable.

Is their anything inherently wrong with pencil for signing prints? Appreciate some papers may not take pencil very well, but I am currently using Photo Rag for most of my work so this isn't a problem.

Just interested to know if I really ought to think about changing my ways :)

Andrew.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: DeanChriss on August 14, 2012, 07:04:48 pm
Interesting to hear that majority of responses are based around pigment ink pens. I have to confess that I normally use 3B pencil, having assumed that carbon is fairly stable.

Is their anything inherently wrong with pencil for signing prints? Appreciate some papers may not take pencil very well, but I am currently using Photo Rag for most of my work so this isn't a problem.

Just interested to know if I really ought to think about changing my ways :)

Andrew.

As far as I know pencil is fine. I use pencil on mat finished papers and pigment ink on everything else.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: JeffKohn on August 14, 2012, 07:17:31 pm
I use pencil on matte papers as well; those Pigma Micron pens don't seem to work well on papers like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, something about the surface dries/clogs up the pens almost instantly (though I suppose this could partly be a flaw in the Pigma pens, I'm going to try some of the other brands mentioned here for signing fiber-gloss prints since I've been disappointed in the lifetime of the Pigma pens in general).
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: jimtron on April 09, 2013, 07:22:29 pm
I've got a bunch of Pigma Micron, Zig, and Prismacolor Premier pens. With Epson PGP and Exhibition Fiber, these pens work fine for signing a couple prints, but very quickly stop working smoothly--as the last post indicated, something about these glossy papers seems to cause difficulties with the pens.

Anyone have any other suggestions for archival pens that will work for more than a few prints on the above mentioned paper? I'm very frustrated as I keep buying pens and ruining prints when the pen stops working midway through signing or titling.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: hugowolf on April 09, 2013, 07:54:14 pm
I think the inkjet receptive coating dries out the ink. I use the Pigma pens, but I have a whole pack of the same size, and rotate them. I only sign one print with each, so I am on the seventh print when I reuse the first pen.

I think you will have the same problem with any water based ink. The coating is designed to aid drying.

Brian A
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on April 09, 2013, 09:09:32 pm
What about signing on canvas?  I'm having a heck of a time finding something that doesn't just soak into the canvas. Tried signing with a lighter colour on a dark image and even though it was coloured, it practically disappeared into the canvas. 
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: JohnBrew on April 09, 2013, 09:11:34 pm
I use pencil on matte papers as well; those Pigma Micron pens don't seem to work well on papers like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, something about the surface dries/clogs up the pens almost instantly (though I suppose this could partly be a flaw in the Pigma pens, I'm going to try some of the other brands mentioned here for signing fiber-gloss prints since I've been disappointed in the lifetime of the Pigma pens in general).

Yep, I've had the same problem. You have to write real slow and steady and hope the ink flow is sufficient. I, too, will try some of the others mentioned.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: bill t. on April 09, 2013, 09:50:04 pm
Sakura "Gelly Roll Metallic" in Silver signs nicely on matte or glossy canvas.  Can coat it with Glamour II immediately after signing, no smearing.  Every graphics arts supplier carries them, also Hob Lob, Michaels, etc.  Go slow on rough surfaces, and start it off with a swipe on a waste piece of canvas.  One pen is good for a few hundred Epson Exhibition Gloss signatures, and it never gushes surprise floods of ink like some other metallic markers I have known.  Did you know that if you make a conscious effort to sign your name absolutely as slowly as possible you will re-create your grade school signature?  True story, so watch out.

Makes a relatively inconspicuous signature that is not very noticeable in many types of light, but can be easily found if somebody looks.

http://www.quickship.com/bruynzeel-sakura-gelly-roll-metallic-gel-ink-pen
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on April 09, 2013, 11:33:45 pm
Thanks Bill... I'll check those out.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: bgphoto on April 11, 2013, 06:12:40 pm
About a month ago I went through the pain of finding a way to sign a bunch of prints printed on Epson Premium Luster paper. I found that a Staedtler Mars Lumograph 7B pencil will write on the face of the paper without any problems but will not write on the back. The 4B and 6B will write on the back.

I did not attempt to use any other brand of pencil due to the set I purchased from Staples was made by Staedtler.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Iluvmycam on April 11, 2013, 07:09:30 pm
Exhibition Fiber is a microporous paper and as you mentioned only a pen will work.

Many who sign works on microporous papers use Pigma pens.

Pigma pens are pigment based and acid free.

More info in the link below.

I learned the hard way to be cautious of pens that are only labeled as "permanent".  In some cases, "permanent" refers only to waterfastness, not lightfastness.

http://www.sakuraofamerica.com/Pen-Archival/

Dan (Dano) Steinhardt
Marketing Manager
Epson America, Inc.




That is what I use.

For other papers test it, for it will never dry on the reverse of some papers
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: John Caldwell on April 11, 2013, 08:39:33 pm
I've given up on the Pigma pens because they dry out so quickly, in my hands. Nothing but graphite seems to be acceptable on MK papers. So I've gone the inkjet route, meaning my signature - and sometimes my handwritten captions - are printed along with the image, at inkjet time. PNG files, created with a Wacom tablet in PS, are the source of the handwritten content. LR assembles the composite in the Print module. This is fine for my purposes, and I don't mean to suggest this method to all artists.

John Caldwell
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Jim Cole on April 12, 2013, 01:43:17 pm
I've used Faber-Castell Pitt Artist Pens for almost 10 years.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on April 12, 2013, 10:35:59 pm
I'm thinking of going the inkjet route for Canvas.  Having trouble finding something that will write on the texture and not be soaked up by the canvas. 
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Mike Guilbault on April 16, 2013, 07:58:44 pm
Just tried one of the Faber-Castell PITT Artists pen and it works great on canvas (1.5 size in gold). It's pigmented India Ink and claims to be acid-free, light-fast and waterproof.  I'll have to try their other ones on the other papers.
Title: Re: Best Pen or Pencil to use to sign Prints
Post by: Jason DiMichele on April 19, 2013, 10:46:42 pm
The ink pens that I'm using to sign both my canvas prints (Hahnemuhle Daguerre) and paper prints (on the matte) is the Pigma Micron archival ink pens. I purchase mine at Currys Art Store. They come in a variety of sizes.

Cheers,
Jay