Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: adrjork on August 05, 2012, 11:19:28 PM

Title: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 05, 2012, 11:19:28 PM
Hi guys, my purpose is to setup a DSLR equipment to shoot and color-grade a film in 2K (starting from HD filming), but I'm not an expert (so be kind ;)).

The style of filming should be similar to Sokurov's Mother and Son (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrpmxX158Kw) and Bartas' The House (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se21qssHAag): stable, long and meditative takes with natural/low light (...light that comes in through the window into a room in the morning... or ...the woman looks out the window simply waiting...)

I hope to receive your advices to decide - step by step - the right equipment for this purpose.

THE CAMERA: 5D3 vs D800
Canon 5D Mark III has a very good un-sharped image quality (perfect for color-grading) also with low light, but the videos are 8bit 4:2:0 compressed with H.264 codec (not ideal for editing with FinalCut or color-grading with DaVinci). On the other hand, Nikon D800 has a clean HDMI-out that can be connected to the Decklink Shuttle2 for Uncompressed 10bit 4:2:2 videos, but Nikon's HDMI-out is 8bit only and someone says that probably Nikon's moiré issue is not definitively solved. The question is: which is the most important factor here? The image quality, or the codec? Someone says that Canon's H.264 8bit 4:2:0 later converted into Uncompressed 10bit 4:2:2 is very similar to Nikon's Uncompressed 8bit recorded in 10bit 4:2:2 by Shuttle, and that the most important thing is the Canon's video quality. Someone else says that there is a huge difference between the codecs, and that there isn't a really appreciable image quality difference between 5D3 and D800. What is you opinion guys?

THE LENSES: PRIMES vs ZOOM, STABILIZED yes/no
Many guys using cheap DSLR for filming uses Zoom lenses. Probably because for cheap Canon's crop cameras (like 550D), EF-S lenses are almost all Zoom. But almost all guys that uses full-frame cameras prefer Prime lenses for image quality and lightness. The question is: stabilized lenses or not? About this point there are different opinions: someone says that IS is important also using Prime lenses on tripod when panning, while someone else says that no-IS is good even on steadi. I must simply say that no-IS is really cheaper than IS, but I'd like to know your opinion guys!

FOLLOW-FOCUS and AUTO-FOCUS
In film-style it's important to control the focus with narrow DOF. Many guys prefer to use completely manual lenses to control focus and aperture. They say that controlling focus directly on the lens' gear isn't good because the hand on the lens adds vibrations, and for this reason they prefer to use a follow-focus, that must be - they say - a really good follow-focus. So... Zacuto, that is really expensive. It seems that follow-focus is needful (specially Zacuto). Do you think so, guys? Is it so needful?
Nobody speaks about auto-focus: there are AF lenses and no-AF lenses; well, I know that here we are speaking of manual filming, but perhaps, when you set a narrow DOF and set the focus on the actor's hands, could be useful to follow automatically the subject with the AF? Is in your opinion a fundamental feature for my kind of filming?

LIGHTS and REFLECTORS
Even if the style of my favorites filmmakers (then the style I'll try to emulate) seems so "natural" - almost documentary - I suppose that a led-light and a reflector panel could anyway be useful. I don't know. Is it so needful for the kind of filming I described to you? And if so, one led-light and one reflector panel might be enough?

FILTERS vs MATTEBOX
There are two solutions about filters: threaded round filters mounted directly on the lens, or square filters mouted on a mattebox. The first solution is cheaper, even if implies many filters (with few step-up rings you can use a single set of filters for all your lenses with a single-size hood). The second solution (mattebox) is more expensive, even if implies only a set of square filters, and it is often unhandy and bulky. But I suppose that mounting-unmounting filters directly on the lenses all the days could damage the lenses, while a mattebox could be the solution that extends the life of your lenses. Do you agree with me, guy? Or do you think that threaded round filters are an agile solution that can't damage the lenses? (My cheap solution could be: lens > step-up to 77mm > filter > protector > hood.)

Thanks for your help and your advices, guys! ;)
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Jim Pascoe on August 10, 2012, 08:26:05 AM
Firstly I think this may be the wrong section to be asking in, and secondly perhaps the wrong forum altogether.  You might be better trying a forum that specialises in movie making.

I have just started making short films with a GH2 and so I am no expert, but I think your questions are so fundamental that you really just need to take the plunge as cheaply as you can and learn what you need most as you go along.  Why waste a load of money buying stuff that you may never use.  That film in your link was made in 1997 so the stuff you are asking about did not even exist then.

I just had a look at 'Mother and Son', and to be honest which gear to use will be the least of your worries.  If money is an issue do what I have done - buy a used GH2, get a couple of old manual focus Nikon prime lenses with an adaptor (or anything similar), get a good tripod with fluid head.  Then, spend your time and effort learning how to create mood in your shots.  For this type of stuff, as far as I can tell, you will not need IS or AF or zoom lenses but you will need a lot of creativity!  Auto focus is useless for shallow depth of field stuff if the subject is moving because it will hunt in and out.  If a follow focus rig is too expensive and you cannot manually focus smoothly, just make sure your subject stays in the plane of focus.  In this sort of film everything is under your control.

Jim

PS I have learned nothing about colour grading yet so you probably know a lot more than me in this regard, but I do feel perhaps you are trying to run before you can walk judging by the questions about equipment.  I can say that editing with Final Cut is fantastic!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 10, 2012, 10:13:04 AM
Mmmm adrjork.

I think you are way too much worry with equipment. Way too much.

Remember, in the Zacuto's camera blind tests, Francis Ford Coppola and many more prefered the GH2 output, against cameras like the Arri or Red.
I don't think FFC could be considered as a non trained eye.

You could also see what world wide motion advertising director can do with some i.phones.

And it's interesting because a great director or photographer would accept to work with a 1000 bucks camera and reduced equipment without problem, but would not accept to work with average talents, would pay attention to details such as location, furnitures and even natural light way before thinking about grading, matte boxes etc...it tells a lot where you should priorize. To me, you are too much concerned on "what's the best equipment prod-post prod to make it good"...and the reality is that to make it good, equipment has very little to do, so you ask a good question but trying to get answers on the wrong place: gear, softwares, grease and bolts.

Check those guys here, all serious filmakers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogme_95
Or here, worked many times without tripod, reduced lightning etc..: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Godard

People like Recuenco with ww recognition are using very little if not zero special effects or compositing and most of the imagery is produced in real on set. Cast is key, locations too. Location is as important as cast. Watch all the making-of here, you'll learn a lot more than in those website for newbees filmakers: http://www.eugeniorecuenco.com/makings.html

and oh yeah: recuenco works with expensive cine cams and crews, but also with a 5D2.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: smthopr on August 10, 2012, 12:51:41 PM
Please consider this advice:

Get yourself a used Panasonic HVX 170, and a fluid head tripod and learn to make movies. Easy to edit, zoom lens included, manual focus and iris possible. Good sound quality. Small and not too expensive. Image quality acceptable for theaters. Not the best, but good enough if anyone wants to see your movie in a theater.

After you've used it for some small projects, you'll know what you need. If you want to continue with filmmaking. Even with a free camera, it gets really expensive!

Here's a trailer for a small movie where all the stuff in Washington DC was shot with this little camera and a crew of two:)

www.brucealangreene.com/firstdogtheater.html

Hope I have that link address correct:)
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 10, 2012, 02:06:10 PM
Yes, Bruce is right. Listen to Bruce adrjork, a reliable source.

A 3000 bucks camcorder like this Pana is a great choice.
A hacked Gh2 captures more details than a F3 ! but there is a huge "but": it's 8 bits and can easily bands on subtle transitions. It's an unforgiving camera in many aspects.
Then the connections suck.

Learn to do great content with a cam like this Pana and then you'll see, if you keep going, you'd have more experience and will be able to choose according to your needs.

Bruce: great link. Enjoyed very much. Wish you the best with the movie.



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 10, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
Great results, Bruce! Really amazing, congratulations!

And thanks for all your advices guys!

P.S. The Recuenco's makings are wonderful! Thanks fredjeang!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: smthopr on August 10, 2012, 04:53:42 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys.

The movie was released 2 years ago. I think it's available at iTunes, Netflix, amazon, and wall mart . And 200 pirate web sites!

Kids 4 to 12 and dog lovers really like it:)
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 12, 2012, 02:29:48 AM
THE CAMERA: 5D3 vs D800

Not great filming cameras for the $, you should consider FS100 and GH2 to

THE LENSES: PRIMES vs ZOOM, STABILIZED yes/no

You linked to slow steady films shot on tripods or dollies, IS lenses will add nothing, but price and plasticy feel of modern glass
Id go for old primes
IS is useful for reality shows

LIGHTS and REFLECTORS
To me LED are attractive only when you do not have access to mains power, tungsten or flouro are worth checking too
Reflectors - yep loads and good grip to keep them in place
With stills your reflector only needs to be still for 1/125 of a second, with motion it may need to be still for many seconds - wobling reflectors cause shadows in motion shots that look terrible

FILTERS vs MATTEBOX
If you have a selection of lenses with different diameters you can soon get in a tangle with round filters and spend a lot of money and lose time on set
Time on set is all in movie making

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 12, 2012, 05:23:32 PM
Thanks Mr. Moore, only a pair of doubts:

1. REFLECTORS:
For video purpose, is your advice to avoid reflectors, or to surely use well gripped reflectors?

2. LIGHTS:
I've read on GH2 manual that flouro lights could give some problem, then tungsten remains but this kind of lights get hot, isn't it? And perhaps they require a lot of power, while led should be cool and should work with less power. I'm really a newbie with lights argument, so I need for some advice. When should I use lights? And do I really need light for the kind of image I have in mind? Well, I've in mind something like a "poetic"-documentary style, between Bartas' The House HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se21qssHAag) and Sokurov's Mother and Son HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrpmxX158Kw). Bartas seems to use mainly natural light, and perhaps some artificial light for close-up portraits (but I'm not sure because - as I said - I'm really a newbie about it). Sokurov certainly uses DaVinci in post, so it's difficult for me to understand if he adds artificial lights in his shots. In my projects I surely will use a color-grading software, but I don't know IF I should use lights, WHICH kind of lights, and HOW MANY lights. (I can only suppose that perhaps I should use 3-point lighting to define the subject from the background, something neutral as 5600K... Isn't it? And if so, which is a good kit?) What is your advice?
Searching by myself for a 3-point lighting kit, I've found THIS (http://www.ikancorp.com/productdetail.php?id=218) iKan 3x led 5600K kit; but somewhere I've found THIS (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/285815-REG/Lowel_O1_92Z_Omni_light_Action_Kit_84Z.html) lowel kit; THIS (http://www.dvestore.com/lowel-dvcreator-kit-55-with-soft-case-and-lamps/) lowel DVcreator 55 kit; THIS (http://www.fcf.it/prodotti.asp?articolo=63293) osram+manfrotto kit; and as single lights I've found THIS (http://www.fcf.it/prodotti.asp?articolo=69597) lupo 4x55W, and THIS (http://www.fcf.it/prodotti.asp?articolo=74583) fotodiox led. Well... I do not know where to start... 3 lights? 3 lights + reflector? 1 light only + a reflector? No lights, only natural light? Lights that get hot? Lights that require low-power? Lights to obtain flat images for my color-grading purpose? ...
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 12, 2012, 06:54:16 PM
Well gripped reflectors are IMO critical for shooting on a budget.

Video lighting.

It is all horrible, over priced and unwieldy if you are used to running around with a couple of QFlashes like I am.

Ive bought it all and like none of it!

Led is generally just a bit weird in colour, but a very good solution if you do not have access to power, you get most lumens per watt which is what you need on batteries

But Leds are big packed down compared to a DEDO DL4 and a lasto shoot through, with led you dont get lumens per dollar or lumens per meter cubed and if you are after a soft source you do not get much light area per $

Fluro seems, I dunno, too heavy and big, the color is OK - my main problem with my flouro light is it is too big (even in my van) I dont think you get many lumens per KG or Cubic Cm and you dont get a large light area per $

But its cool (wont fry you or the talent or burn the place down)

Tungsten, its hot and its yellow, and draws current, and non dimmable in general

Not sold? neither was I

Well I had some Arri 800 lights and got rid of them.. error .. ended up buying again

Now tungsten wins like this..

with CT blue the colour is the best for skin, you can take the CTblue off and balance in a yellow environment like a conference hall

The lights pack down small, you get Lumens per Meter Cubed and Lumens per KG

You also get lumens per dollar - tungsten is cheap

Go get some redreads, and some shoot through scrims and get used to burning your hands!

This packs down small, is cheap and lightweight and has a large surface area, a total winner if you are on mains voltage..

My keylight.. http://www.sammorganmoore.com/backlot/soft-daylight-source

BTW I have not mentioned HMI lighting, starts at about $3k per fixture.. out of my range

S







 

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 12, 2012, 07:12:23 PM
Another thought is quantity of lights..

You might do a shot running from room A to room B (unlike stills!)

in this case 3 redheads ($1k) or a nice Kino ($1k)..

well you can see that you can light 2 or three spaces if you have to with a three head kit..

in general Id say Led is OK for the one man interview (but I still prefer 2 dedolights and a lastolight)

Fluro is OK for an interview, nicer light than LED and good in small rooms due to heat

as soon as you get into a bigger or multiple space Tungsten starts to come together..

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 12, 2012, 10:41:13 PM
My god...

Mr. Morgan Moore, I must say that I should deeply study lighting matter. Do you advice me to buy some handbook about lighting for digital cinema? Does it exist something like that? Because I know nothing about kelvin, perceived watts, tungsten vs led, etc.

And again I'm not sure if I really need lights or reflectors for the kind of filming I have in mind.
Please, look at these 6 screenshots: SCREEN_1 (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Se21qssHAag/0.jpg), SCREEN_2 (http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/f1/81/001681f1.jpeg), SCREEN_3 (http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3774/bartas1js2.png), SCREEN_4 (http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ee/81/001681ee.jpeg), SCREEN_5 (http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews15/a%20Aleksandr%20Sokurov%20Mat%20i%20syn%20Mother%20and%20Son%20DVD%20Review/MutterUndSohn1.jpg), SCREEN_6 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Q7iE5HM8TM0/S9Y-NvazJYI/AAAAAAAAAHw/oFru589DqvU/s1600/Mother+and+Son+3.JPG). In which one you can say that artificial lights are used? Or lights + reflectors? Or only reflectors? Or nothing at all, but natural sunlight?
For example: the last two seem to be deeply post-graded and distorted, but the original takes seem totally natural, isn't it?

So, to replicate this kind of takes, which "minimal" (and agile) kit you recommend?

Thanks really so much!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 13, 2012, 01:37:26 AM
honestly that lot all looks to be natural light or light we cannot afford (big lights outside replicating daylight)

no books, go shoot

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 13, 2012, 11:42:29 AM
Convincingly simulating natural light is one of the more difficult tasks in photography, & while the fundamentals of lighting are the same for stills, & motion, the needs, & tools, can be very different. I'm a huge fan of natural light, but maintaining continuity generally means having tools to emulate, or supplement, it.

Stills photographers have a go it alone mentality, whereas motion is generally much more collaborative. There's much to be praised about the first approach, however I suggest you embrace the latter. Most DP's have big holes in the schedule, & a good one could bring a lot of value to your project. Consider yourself the Director, & let the DP fulfill your vision. This doesn't mean you can't operate the camera, some Directors do, though usually not for the entire project, but your focus should be on the actors' performance, & the story.

When choosing a camera there's a lot to be factored. As you hope to utilize natural light, high ISO, & DR, would be among my first considerations for this project. And while a 5D3 has great high ISO, it requires stopping down a whole stop more than S35, & two stops more than m4/3, to maintain the same DOF.

422 is better than 420, but not a deal killer. You'd see a bigger leap using a 10-bit or better, over any 8-bit camera, but these don't come cheap (F3 with Recorder, Scarlet, etc.) unless your willing to use a much smaller format.

And once you've choosen a camera the question becomes how are you going to support it. Anyone experienced in this field will tell you not to cheap out on the sticks, & more importantly, the fluid head. You first need to know how much your camera will weigh, then choose the appropriate head, with some overhead factored in so it's not straining.

Due to their flat mount I have numerous Manfrotto heads for use on Sliders, monopods, or such, & for awhile used a 504HD on sticks, but have moved onto Satchler as my primary head. This has made a huge difference in my operating as I can much better stick the end of moves.

Next up is how are you going to monitor. While a lupe over your camera's LCD is alright for some simple work, it's not great on sticks, or when reviewing footage with the team. You'd be better served by an external monitor, or even an EVF.

Tungsten is the gold standard in artificial light, & the most affordable, but often not practical due to heat, efficiency, & CT. If your filming nudes in winter they'd be a good choice, & in many of your examples I'd CTO the windows instead of gelling the tungstens, however in my daily work I'm much more likely to use daylight sources (Kino, & HMI).

LEDs are indispensable for some work, & there are some remarkably bright units coming to market, but color reproduction is not their strength. If absolute color is not important, or your using them just as a catchlight, then they can be useful, but unless your building a large array I don't see them as that useful for this project.

If you interested in the color issues read the Solid State Lighting Project, & be sure to view the tests. These are a great solution for insomnia.

Solid State Lighting Project
www.oscars.org/science-technology/council/projects/ssl/index.html

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 13, 2012, 08:14:33 PM
Well guys, I'm so happy with all your answers! Thanks!

About the monitor: I've read that outdoor - with sunlight - the lcd monitors have some issue to be visible, and on the other hand an EVF - if continuously used - could damage the eyes (same thing for the loupe). So my question is: why don't use an angle finder mounted directly on the camera's viewfinder? It's cheap and doesn't occupy the lcd monitor. Could it be a good solution?

About the fluid head: the weight is an important parameter for me, for this reason I've asked the question about the mattebox: without mattebox, the camera + a follow-focus + a lens + round filters can't weigh more than 3,5 Kg, that means that I can continue to use my old and tiny 128RC-headed Manfrotto tripod (that declares 4 Kg load capacity). With a mattebox I have to buy something stronger (so, money again). Anyway I have to be sure about a thing: Mr. Morgan_Moore says:
FILTERS vs MATTEBOX: If you have a selection of lenses with different diameters you can soon get in a tangle with round filters and spend a lot of money and lose time on set Time on set is all in movie making
That's right, but let's say that I have time, and I'm just worried about lenses life, so my question is: could mounting-unmounting filters directly on the lenses all the days damage the lenses? Or not? Longer life of lenses with mattebox? Or it's the same?

About the camera: I agree with Mr. Bern Caughey (thx for your reply) when he points the difference between 8bits vs 10bits, but actually doesn't exist a 10bit camera under 10K $! FS700 perhaps only after the promised 4K upgrade, but it will require a Gemini 4:4:4 to record the uncompressed 4:4:4 10bits signal, so 8000 € (FS700) + 9000 € (Gemini) to obtain a damn big format for the happiness of my external storage! Well at that point a Scarlet and Redcode seem a cheaper solution ;)! Only Blackmagic Cinema Camera seemed the huge solution with its 12bits CinemaPNG format, but its sensor is so cropped (no wide angle) and so clumsy in low-light that the whole camera seems nonsense. Well, FS100 seems a good 8bits solution but it costs 5500 € + 1000 € for the Atomos Ninja2 (to capture 4:2:2 ProRes, avoiding tha AVCHD). Now, Mr. Morgan_Moore, you advice me FS100 and GH2, but it seems to me that there is a big difference between the sensor size of the two cameras! Is in your opinion the video produced by FS100 and GH2 comparable? When you advice to me these two cameras, do you imply something like the Ninja2 or not?

Thanks to everybody!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 13, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
When recording motion the mirror is up and therefore the pentaprism in the dark

Film people like the glass finder, but unless you got £120k you aint having one

Viewing your image. there are two choices, either someone is pulling focus using witness marks (pre planned and mesured ) or someone is focussing off a digital screen

Now, most EVFs are 480 px, so with a 1080 camera you are seeing one pixel in four.. how are you supposed to focus I have no idea

There is one high res evf from alphatronic or similar name

So lets say you do want to focus off the screen then you need higher res,

ShallHDDp6 and TVLogic are the mintors on a budget that offer 720 (still not 1080 but beggars cannot be choosers)

As for viewing in the sun (in fact almost all outside) you need a sunshade

This is what sold the SmallHD to me the very nice sunshade

BTW the communication between the monitor and the camera body is crucial, the mini HMDI on DSLRs sucks, the large and better positioned Big hdmi on the FS100 is better, much better, ideally you want SDI which is only on more expensive cameras F3 etc

Daylight monitors do exsist with high 'nit' value and special coatings on the glass

Transvideo is the brand and.. they cost big bucks .. $2k for a 3 inch 280px

S

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 13, 2012, 08:52:01 PM
You will note every post I mention the FS100,  - I own a 5d2 and had a 7d too and have a D3 for stills and an H1

I can promise that DSLR is a total pain for motion..

moiree
soft
HDMI lead falling out
no sound solution
Hdmi lead falling out

Did I mention the HDMI lead?

I did not buy the FS because I had some desire to spank cash, but because of my total frustration with DSLR motion shooting

at the other end Ive just bought a sonynex5n, which seems about as good as a 5d for motion and cost the same price as a serious coffee


S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 15, 2012, 10:54:37 AM
I don't understand... What about DSLR's HDMI lead? ;) ahahah...

So, if I correctly understand, the DSLR strategy for video is: video-mode; focusing with the pentaprism during pause; marking the follow-focus; then recording (only LCD + focus-marks)? Is it so?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 15, 2012, 11:08:09 AM
DSLR use mini hdmi coming out of the side of the camera this would go to a monitor (screen) or EVF (small screen)

If you knock this the connection breaks and the camera stop recording losing the shot

The positioning means you knock it all the time

some people zacuto, smallHD sell a widget to help this

There are various ways to focus.

Before you roll you get very good 1:1 zoom in on the rear screen or monitore

You can check and roll for a static shot

For a moving shot you can mark the lens or white ring on the follow focus and pull focus to marks during the shot

If you are using calibrated cine lenses the mesures on the side of the lens will match the distance - such lenses and calibration costs ££££$$$$

Or you can try and judge focus from the screen, either on the screen on the back at about 480px 1/4 what you are recording

Or using (via the HDMI lead) a monitor of higher resolution like the SmallHD dp6 which is 720p

The 5dmk2 only puts out 480pixels of info - so however good your screen you are judging from minimal data, the 5dmk2 also goes dark for two seconds before recording!

Cameras like the EX1 and FS100 you can focus check (onboard screen only) while rolling, but the centre area only which is not much use for some shots composed off centre

Focusing on the moving subject is still in its infancy for narrow DOF cameras..

S


Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 15, 2012, 11:11:27 AM
The FS100 has a kit lens with auto focus, not a pleasant lens, 18-200 3.5-5.6 with a horrible plastic feel

It can hold focus on an acvancing subject very very well in the right conditions.. https://vimeo.com/26393362

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 15, 2012, 11:24:07 AM
About follow-focus: I've seen the edelkrone FocusONE PRO (with the repositioning pre-marked white circle). It seems useful and cheap (les or more...)
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 15, 2012, 11:37:13 AM
its an innovative design not the norm but looks nice

personally i 'pull off the barrel by eye using my DP6

The reason I own no follow focus is that it slows down lens changes

With filming you need to change lenses a lot because you are not after a single image but a sequence

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 15, 2012, 11:39:55 AM
That's right!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 15, 2012, 12:02:58 PM
I've seen that the SmallHD DP6-SLR Bundle is a bit pricey!

What do you think about Lilliput 5D-II 7" monitor? It's very cheap (250€) and only 9oz. In your opinion, is it completely useless in comparison with the DP6?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 15, 2012, 01:06:30 PM
600 px v 720

looks better than liliput from a couple of gens ago

dont know the battery options

input says 12v, 'pro' accesories take 11-14 volts

which is what 'pro' batteries give

I like the sunshade on the DP6

Online its all just numbers and letters, best to get to a store or rental house or hook up with a crew and get some stuff in your hands..

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 16, 2012, 04:38:02 AM
I have one of those Lilliput monitor, the 665GL.

It's a mixed bag.

The built quality (as expected) is so so. With 600x1024 pixels it's ok for focussing and if you spend time in optimizing the controls
it can display a relative reliable image to what you'll have recorded.
The weakest points being the plastic feeling and the ussr's style quality control... however it seems for what I heard that customer service from the company is good.

Then it has very good connections, XRL, video and HDMI in AND out (very interesting), DC 6-24v, and 2 types of battery standart.

A good basic monitor for focussing or monitoring in cascade on set if you don't ask it to do what more expensive units can.

Not really suitable for big prods but perfectly fine for indy.


About sunshades, here in Spain where the sun is harsh and unbearable, most of the hood are completly useless. We really need extra long hoods otherwise you can't operate. It depends on the latitude you are  living.
In grey, rainy, foggy, misty land where Morgan lives for ex, this is less problematic.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 16, 2012, 05:39:14 AM
In grey, rainy, foggy, misty land where Morgan lives for ex, this is less problematic.

The Small HD hood I can completely put my face in it.. works in any light

I don't just hide in the clouds, http://www.sammorganmoore.com/corporate-video/slide-and-splash

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 16, 2012, 08:48:50 AM
I like to tease.

Great you did advert.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 16, 2012, 09:10:02 AM
This would be a fine job for our OP to discus!

It is still riddled with problems, green shift from vari ND and being forced to shoot at F16 being the main ones due to keeping the shutter at 50

And also solutions..

-I could see
-I had enough power!
-I held focus

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 16, 2012, 10:04:07 AM
I frankly like the output of the Sony. It delivers great imagery even in highly compressed web.

What did you use for the water tunnel ? a gopro?

I don't understand why there are 2 blured circles on the bar signs at the end of the clip?

Talking about power, my Sony F970 batteries are suffering strangely more the extreme heat than the cold. Above 35º they last way shorter.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 16, 2012, 11:12:58 AM
That is mainly over exposed IMO, trading off diffraction X effect  and dirt on sensor vs light level with a variable ND

Yep we did a load of GoPro , mostly the shutter went to maybe 1000 and the footage was not usable due to the high shutter strobing look

(I guess they blur this shutter out in the GoPro adverts!)

This has affected my choice of a new small camera, I chose not to get the gopro but the Nex5n which I can easily ad ND filtration.

The blur, I think it is a Coke Logo that could not be broadcast.

---

To the OP. Sorry to drift, but some empirical recording motion chat may be of value to you

Put yourself in that water-park, with no AF and no flashguns and a max allowable shutter of 1/50, and you see that light and focus management are very different from stills... harder especially when you might have to remove a logo or dust from the sensor in post - not in a single frame, but many hundreds

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 16, 2012, 11:58:43 AM
...The blur, I think it is a Coke Logo that could not be broadcast...

Oh yeah, of course, it makes all sense.

I quite like the exposure and color for the target.

I think the Nex has a much better - usable imagery than the Hero. And the sensor is the same than your FS no?

On the ND, one of the really big issue is not having an integrated ND. I hate matteboxes, and I also hate the screw filters because I don't have 2 lenses with the same diameter
and in the end it's adapters and more little devices easy to break, loose or forget on set without an assistant.
Only for that reason I would have bought this Pana AF100.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 16, 2012, 12:11:00 PM
The NEX5n is the same S35 (apsC) sensor but being a 16mp stills cam like  canon SLRs  it must

-line skip to produce 1080 video inducing softness or moiree
-has small pixels so the lowlight is not as good as the FS100

It has the same E mount which which takes my nikkor glass at the same visual perspective as the FS100
There is also an interesting 16 2.8 pancake lens

As for filtration I have 2 77mm tiffen vairable NDs and all my lenses live with a 77 step up ring

Mainly I only use 2 lenses 18prime and 35-70 zoom, this has minimised my filtration faf..
Im on to a 28-85 nikkor zoom to swap for the 35-70 which will give me a little more range with two lenses

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 16, 2012, 12:17:47 PM
To our OP.

You might be following the filter chat, lets clear up that you know..

-Motion is shot only at 1/50th (for 25FPS) often requiring deep ND filtration in daylight
-motion is typically made up from sequences of shots from diffreent perspective

This means..

Often more lense changes
and
Changing lenses is a right pain due to messing with Nd filters and maybe follow focus.

It is worth considering that a Panny AF100, Sony FS700 canon C300 have onboard ND filtration which makes life very very much easier

additionally that filtration can cost $1500 or more either with multiple vari filters or a matte box and set of solids

such a cost can almost justify the FS700 over the Fs100 or a stills camera..

S


Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 17, 2012, 11:42:53 AM
Well, I admit that FS700 and C300 are not in my budget.
Also FS100 should be out, but I like its Super-35 sensor that gives good low-light results (very important to me).
The Pana AF100 costs the same as FS100 but has on-board ND filter! That's great, it's true! But I have to consider the 4/3 sensor that can't give the same low-light results as Super-35, isn't it?
So I think I will use ND filters for budget reasons ;) and it will be a right pain!

Just about ND filters... ND_4 or ND_8 for Italian outdoor light?

A friend uses UV-filters simply as protector-filters, adding a Cir-Pol or a ND as main filter. Could it be good, or for some reason is it better to use a real protector-filter + ND?

About LCD vs loupe... I've seen the Varavon Profinder for still cameras with right angle view + loupe (HERE (http://www.varavon.com/product/profinder01.html)). Could it be a good alternative to external 6or7" LCD monitors for still cameras?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 17, 2012, 12:38:16 PM
2 links: http://blog.adoramarentals.com/2011/10/20/panasonic-af100-vs-sony-fs100/

http://vimeo.com/17765301

The low-light gives you an idea of the m4/3 compared to the full frame 5D2 (note that this isn't a hacked gh2 but a factory')

to see what a hacked gh2 can do in low light: http://vimeo.com/26818589
this is a relatively conservative hack.

now, look what a hacked gh2 can do at 10.000 isos   with a simple post-prod noise reduc for fcp: http://vimeo.com/32204670

It's cleaner than some footage I've seen with the C300 !
This is quite amazing considering it's uploaded as a 720 footage and still looks sharp on full screen at those isos.

the m4/3 sensor is far from being a cow. We shouldn't underestimate this sensor because it's smaller on the paper and what Panasonic's tech is capable of (if they want...)

Remember that this is a sensor that gives you access to C mount, anamorphic and virtually all existing glasses from the cine industry.

Don't trust the testings with curves "scientifical" proofs and charts, watch the footage shooted with every cam you're interested in.
On the paper this sensor should be "bad" in low light. In real conditions that's another story.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 17, 2012, 03:02:22 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qIcrSnKv9QU/UCuGQs9MM1I/AAAAAAAA_fI/9vrfWx2p5as/s0-d/430238_401567493239109_176824133_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 17, 2012, 05:46:08 PM
I agree, fredjeang, and your links about GH2 tests are amazing! But about GH2 tests seem discordant: THIS (http://vimeo.com/42091083) clearly shows that an hacked GH2 is noisy at high ISO, while 5D3 and FS100 are better.
Well, I suppose that in the appropriate conditions, GH2 probably is one of the best choices (and I'm astonished by the absence of moiré in the tests you have posted!) but - as I've seen in the low-light test I've posted - in a general low-light condition, without de-noise, FS100 and 5D3 win.

I think that the hacked GH2 surely destroys the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, and in right conditions could give better results than 5D3, but I'd have a doubt to use it as main camera for a film with natural indoor light only, and no artificial light added.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 17, 2012, 06:47:49 PM
To me the choices are clear,

budget.. GH2

next is FS100

next is Black Magic - data will make it expensive compared to FS100.. but im convinced the images is a step above GH2 or FS100, a big step

--

you will see no where in there is a DSLR, I would consider a DSLR if I wanted it to do stills.

but.. Stop Press..

There is a new sony nex-ea50

Very attractive price point and ergonomic design.. also 16mp stills

This will be an FS100 'killer', in reality I think the Fs100 will have a better image as it is a 4mp video camera not a downressing stills camera

The FS100 will offer less moiree and better low light.

The other option is the sony NEX5n .. really this is as good for video as a 5dmk2, has a S35 chip (not MTF)

and is verry cheap and small!, but you will need dual sound

I did another test with my NEX5n today, shots like this are impossible with a bigger camera..

This is auto iso! https://vimeo.com/47720852

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 17, 2012, 08:09:06 PM
I agree, fredjeang, and your links about GH2 tests are amazing! But about GH2 tests seem discordant: THIS (http://vimeo.com/42091083) clearly shows that an hacked GH2 is noisy at high ISO, while 5D3 and FS100 are better.
Well, I suppose that in the appropriate conditions, GH2 probably is one of the best choices (and I'm astonished by the absence of moiré in the tests you have posted!) but - as I've seen in the low-light test I've posted - in a general low-light condition, without de-noise, FS100 and 5D3 win.

I think that the hacked GH2 surely destroys the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, and in right conditions could give better results than 5D3, but I'd have a doubt to use it as main camera for a film with natural indoor light only, and no artificial light added.

About low-light with the GH2 this isn't as simple.
The example I posted is someone who knows what he is doing, but there are many noisy examples in youtube-vimeo uploaded by people who don't really master the story.

The thing is that above 1600 isos, a 5D2 for ex would give you a cleaner output, but...the image obtained by the canon is way more unprecise. The hacked GH2 resolves more details than a Sony F3, an AF100 and FS100. Not a little more, much more. Very very close to the C300. http://philipbloom.net/2012/01/06/christmas-shootout/ watch the video called "christams shootout part 1" you'll see what I mean.
You can upscale without prob to 25-30% a GH2 footage and you'll obtain what a 5D2 would give in a smaller image. (because it's not just about the sensor but how the image is processed)

Therefore the extreme precision in details allows the use of denoisers in extreme isos without compromising the sensation of sharpness and quality. In other words: no post prod high isos: Canon or FS100. Post prod intervention: GH2 would be better, almost as good as the C300. Try to get the footage of the 10.000 isos example with lens at full ap with a 5D2.

This is not a straight road. It depends.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 18, 2012, 01:58:37 PM
Wait a minute guys... If I understand correctly, Mr. Morgan_Moore you say that Blackmagic Cinema Camera is better thatn hacked GH2??? I'm really curious: could you describe the reasons of this opinion? (Because it seems that in web nobody likes that camera!)

@fredjeang: yes I've seen your links and I admit that GH2 videos seem more precise than 5D2... Yes I'll use post but I usually avoid de-noise. Obviously I'd prefer to spend 700€ and not 3200 for the camera body! It would be fantastic. And again: the GH2's no-moire results are Amazing. But comparising GH2 vs 5D3 tests give different results, and I remain with my doubts.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 18, 2012, 03:03:05 PM
You are falling in the same trap than a lot of people,
With sensors and low noise and I can't blame you
Because internet is full of these bullshit.

I've been assisting a few ww photographers and I can tell
You that none are concern by those factors and they would
Work with any CAM.

You're new to video and of I understand want to do indy.
Well, get a gh2 or the fs100, hack it and with the money saved invert in
Good glasses because it's a life investment and has dramatic
Impact on the iq.

Then, learn to work with the limitations of your gear. You
Won't learn with an alexa. The gh2 is an unforgiving cam.

Stop thinking too much about having a 100 isos output at 10.000 isos
With a candle. Learn to produce great content with a CAM
Like the gh2. The CAM is nothing, focus in producing good
Content with any CAM, a red One won't help until you'd get experience.

You really need to free your mind from gear, start with small
Budgets, and learn to be really good. It will take many years and a lot
Of commitment. Forget to turn around in circles trying
To get the best possible equipment because it will always distract and frustrate  
but center on creativity and Content.

Forget about codecs, bitrates, sensor sizes, avid vs premiere, 4k,
And so on. You'll have time to deal with those bullshit later
And beleive me, it's Boring like hell.

None of the great Masters i've met have ever read a cam testing.
They just work.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 18, 2012, 03:46:42 PM
Wait a minute guys... If I understand correctly, Mr. Morgan_Moore you say that Blackmagic Cinema Camera is better thatn hacked GH2??? I'm really curious: could you describe the reasons of this opinion? (Because it seems that in web nobody likes that camera!)

It doesn't even exist so how can people like it or not!

Simply the BMD is a raw shooter. You know your stills right?

Well H264 video is like shooting a jpg 2, hacking a GH2 might make it like a jpg 4 or 6, but that is nothing on a raw file, nothing.

But the BMD will scary amounts of data,
"RAW 2.5K fits about 30 minutes of 24p video on a 256 GB"
.. then you open it up to tiff :)

The BMD will need external power that will cost you $2g
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/625113-REG/PAG_PAL95EK3_V_Lok_Power_Kit.html
You will need an SDi not HDMI monitor
Also.. it has a 'flaw' in that it has a sensor smaller than MFT and a canon lense mount - buying a wide will be near impossible, because wide is 9mm
It is no GH2, its big scary tool, and a gen one version too - so expect software glitches et al.
But the file will probably be awesome

So as a first buy that is not really the thing or maybe it is

Video colour grading is a horrid activity, raw is a pleasure, maybe you should be the first ever video shooter who says
H264? Whats that ? I only shoot raw.

I mean a typical video file, hack or no hack is a joke if you are used to doing a file in C1 from a D3, 5d2 or Blad.

But a GH2, its a no brainer, get it learn, play, i doesnt cost anything (yep video is like sailing .. stand on deck throw $100 bills overboard) and whatever, it will be a great B camera for video or stills camera or the wife or kids, it will not be wasted cash..

S






Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 18, 2012, 03:56:18 PM
and get off the web, buy a camera tommorow, anything and shoot

Shoot some movies..

Wife, Making Coffee.
Wife Making coffee 2, 345678910
Kids walk in the park 1-20

Get them on the computer (no mean task)

Cut them, they must make sense, you will learn so much, begining middle, end,  maybe you hate making movies

And cut them again, make two cuts, 60seconds, and 15 seconds, not 60.05 or 59.50, 60, with the same footage.

Dont mess about, make them good, give your self no excuses once you can shoot, Coffee, its pretty similar to shoot Bond

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Hywel on August 18, 2012, 06:00:43 PM
Completely agree with Sam.

Get off the web and get shooting, then get editing. Nothing will improve your shooting technique faster than cutting the crappy footage you got together and trying to make it sing.

Any camera will do for that. Hell, you may well already own one (eg iPhone) which will allow you to get started, although the more manual control you have the more you can learn because you have to take more decisions.

If you spend significant money, spend it on stuff that will outlast the camera: a good fluid-head video tripod, a decent mic (plus external recorder if necessary), boom pole (use it on a C-stand if you're a one man band), good glass and some basic lighting kit. Buy a cheap camera and good supporting gear- the camera will be superceded in a couple of years anyway but glass will last for decades if you invest.

Buy a GH2, a few dinky Lumix lenses or 17-55mm Nikon f/2.8 and an adaptor, hack it and go for it. Or grab a second-hand HVX200 or cheap dSLR and learn with that. You'll soon learn what things are important to you for what you shoot and how you like to shoot it, and buy kit that serves those needs.  

It is easy to get bewitched by the marketing claims of different cameras, but until you've shot a good few dozen things you won't know if 120 frames per second is something you'll use every day, or something you'll never touch. (I like having 50 fps overcrank because it makes girls look beautiful when they move, but 300 fps I doubt I'd ever use).  You won't know if you need to shoot at ISO 6400 or whether you find you can always kick in a few redhead lights and shoot at ISO 400 on your shoots. Will you actually see the benefits of a mattebox and filters, or will they just slow you down (in which case you might be better off with an agile camera like an AF100 or C300 with built-in ND filters).

Most important of all - spend some time shooting what you want to shoot, for fun, and edit it together into something you can't wait to show people.

Cheers, Hywel.

 
P.S. and if you are planning on dropping a significant wedge of cash on anything, see if you can hire it for a day before you buy. Lots of times the only way to really see how well some techie kit will support the sort of shoots you want to do is to shoot with it.



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 18, 2012, 06:09:55 PM
Ahahah... Thanks guys! Really a lot! You are both angels with opposite temperaments! Like Eusebius and Florestan (you know Schumann's characters? I'm a pianist and Schumann is my favorite piano-composer.)

Well you are right: just do it! You know, it's true I'm afraid by the gear because I know that my budget is one and one only, and once gone well it's gone. So I try to plan the best possible choice. That's all.

But now, let's say GH2: to hack it is sufficient to download a special firmware and install it, isn't it? And could it be done throug OSX? Or windows only? I've seen a lot of link about this, but I know that you Mr. fredjeang are an Expert, so could you tell me an updated link about "hacking GH2 for dummies" for me, please?

Thanks a lot guys!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 18, 2012, 07:22:58 PM
Hell, you may well already own one (eg iPhone)

I think there is great value to shooting a few Iphone projects, seriously.

The lower the wall to getting a shot the better.

I take great store in (and I am lucky to have him) my chum who works for the BBC

He was a print writer, then moved to radio, then was given a camera.

He is a full time professional shooter, yet his imaging skills are minimal.

Basically he uses a Z1, 90% on wide, AF.

Being wide, he gets in close with his microphone.

The thing is he is master at construction of a shot sequence and a story and can frame a simple static image.

I broke apart one of my 'efforts' here http://www.dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=109&Itemid=1

One can note that there is no need for two cameras on an interview if you get enough footage NOT showing the lips of the speaker.

S


Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 18, 2012, 07:35:09 PM
I think that the real hack expert here is Bern Caughey, he knows way more than me about the hacks and currently work in a production house in LA.

Well, about if it works with Mac I guess it does. I'm on PC and my Mac have more dust than the soil of death valley. I sincerely ignore if for Mac it's the same but it should be.

I have no link for dummies because the system is really as simple as 2+2=4 but there should be some things in the internet.

There is the software here:  http://www.gh1-hack.info/wiki/PToolSoftware

read the instructions, it's really easy. There should be some videos examples in youtube also. Here is a link with some instructions, it's always the same: http://www.zeroplusplus.com/easy-panasonic-gh2-42mbps-firmware-patch-instructions/

Then you'd need to go to this website for the hacks: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/categories/hacks
That's the jungle to be honest but you'll end to get use of it. (I don't)

Maybe if Bern sees this he will have more links for dummies.

Also, if you have a higher budget, consider the FS100 camera that owns Morgan.

and another link to proove that gear matters very little at first: http://vimeo.com/30751603
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 18, 2012, 07:48:53 PM
Also, if you have a higher budget, consider the FS100 camera that owns Morgan.

I bought this camera not for image quality -Im sure the GH2 is close or as good - even if it is not no one will care.

-The slightly larger sensor meets better my still lens selection
-the onboard sound save time in the edit, which is money
- the onboard sound you can play back on set which builds confidence
-I dont need a sound recorder, less batts, less wires
-I can power from professional batteries, which saves time on set and messing with many chargers at home - time saver
-the HDMI lead is better placed :)

One awesome thing is the ability to record one mic into two channels at two different levels.. absolutely fantastic to the sound recordist coming from stills!

None of these things affect the viewers perception of the image.. but a 'film is sound and image, maybe 70% sound!

Quite enough wires thank you.
(http://halfinchrails.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/IMG_0059.jpg)

S



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 20, 2012, 02:19:21 PM
... it's true I'm afraid by the gear because I know that my budget is one and one only, and once gone well it's gone. So I try to plan the best possible choice. That's all.

I understand you, and it's perfectly valid.

But the best possible choice is a very relative concept. The tech evolves at the speed of light and what's a great choice today becomes easily obsolete tomorrow.

People are saying that 4K is the near future, so I'm asking why some of the best prods and filmakers are currently using Arri Alexas today? (the Alexa isn't 4K)
The answer is very simple, because it's a great pro camera today.

You know, this is a culture of gear. Watch the uploaded movies. You don't read the subjects, for example "storm", no. the typical titles are "Canon-5D2-storm-low-light-with-Canon-FD-50mm-1.4-15.000-isos-magic-lantern"
This is not the content anymore, this is the gear that matters. Manufacturers couldn't be happier. They managed to create a never-satisfied spoiled childs consummers, totally gear orientated, that would buy the very latest if it will give them less noise at 500000 isos...then you see the pics, open an Albert Watson's gallery and compare...of course, something's wrong somewhere there.

Do we know, when we go to watch a movie on a theater, if it's been shoot on a Canon C300 with reduced team and so on? Do you imagine a movie title that would say instead of "Hugo", Canon C300 at 15.000 isos with Zeiss bla bla...Hugo"...ridiculous isn't it? Or why not going to a museum to see a Picasso painting and they would put: paint with 3" brush, pig hair, brand of the paintings, brand of the canvas, mood of the paintor, how many times he went to the toilets during the painting etc etc...but that's what is happening now.

The result of that "gear culture" are tons of absurd timelapses, absurd dolly shots, absurd 50.000 isos testings inundating the internet, and of course that puts a huge pressure to the kids (and the non-kids too...) to get the best possible gear. Of course this is all a mirage, but everybody bites on it.

The most ridiculous part of this is that everyone has become a tech, sorry, a tech no, it's not glamour enough, no no... a scientist of course. They seem to know a lot of things...there has never been as many scientits in this image industry...the world if full of knowledgable people testings sensors, using graphics, and writing tons of blogs on the topic.

So instead of putting yourself at work, you are worried: Have I made the good choice? Should I listen to this or that? And if I'm wrong what would happen? ...you're bloody trapped.

And the irony of all the story, is that most of the people are secretly wanting to be famous, but for what I've seen with the people who actually are famous, is that they don't give a bloody damn interest with gear and specially, very specially, cameras, unless your aim is to become a tech or cameraman, that's another story.
If I've heard top photographers talking (very rarely) about optics, I've never heard just one who was talking about cameras, resolution, DR, and so on...what do they talk about then? Well, cast, talents, story, cutting, places, lightning, money...

So think about it. Maybe there is a relation, a direct relation with the fact that the people who really are doing great stuff, are doing great stuff because they focuss on the ingredients that are key for a stuff to be great...

If you manage to do good stuff with a GH2, a FS100 or whatever, you'll have more chance to grow, strategical people will look at you, than if you got 10 red cameras and do shitty stuff. Like we see quite a lot in the MF section. Big sensors, expensive equipments: fences, gardens and average models in general...a part from a few elite and good guys, the big gear has never transformed a donky into a racing horse.
Then periodically, the 35mm guys trying to demystify their big brothers because of jalousy. In a year there are about 4 of those war threads, and guess what? they are the most read. It tells you all.

So yes, it's important that you see the gear you can afford and try to plan the best purchases you can (bet on lenses, not cameras because cameras don't last long), but it's as important you also forget about all that and simply start to film, film and film until you fall of fatigue.


 



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 20, 2012, 03:40:23 PM
Whether stills, or motion, cameras add a very small portion of the overall production value. What's in front of the lens is much more important than what's behind, & in the case of motion, sound is at least as important as cinematography.

You need to budget your production needs, & build in an extra 50%. In my case it should have been closer to 1000%. Maybe 10,000%.

Most any camera will be adequate in the right circumstances, & schedule, with the more expensive options providing the greatest flexibility. When time is money the big boys shine.

If you have more time than money, a hacked GH2 is the best option, especially as you'll need backup. Spend your camera budget on good head/sticks, great sound, G&E, & proper monitors.

I disagree with Morgan about EVFs. I have a 6.5" Marshall "daylight viewable" monitor with 1280×720 resolution, but much prefer an EVF for focusing, especially outdoors, & among the current options the new Alphatron's image is the crispest.



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 20, 2012, 04:11:29 PM
Bern,

I've been EVF hostile for some time and prefered using exclusively monitors. But now I'm changing my mind. Wich model would you recommend for the Gh2 ?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 20, 2012, 05:29:07 PM
Fred,

Much of my work is handheld, where I much prefer an EVF. Add blazing daylight &, I find on-board monitors almost useless. There's constantly a bright background behind me, or client wearing a white T, & the screen simply washes. Squinting sometimes helps, but rarely inspires trust.

And though I like focusing with an EVF, when practical I like composing with a monitor. If static, sticks/dolly/SteadyBag/etc, I'll use both. Sometimes it's just the camera's LCD, other times an external.

I have 1st generation Cineroid, Zacuto, & Alphatron, EVFs. Can't comment on their current offerings, but Cineroid's was rushed, & quality bad. Still it was the only HDMI EVF, & got me through. Zacuto's was a major step-up, & still a good choice., however Alphatron/TVLogic's is crisper, & offers unparrelled connectivilty. The shuttering eyepiece is almost worth the price alone. but so far I am less convinced by the menu. TVLogic has already responded with the 1st firmware update, so seem to be listening.

Later I'll compare the Zacuto against the Alphatron while both are connected to the same camera. While I'm sure to favor Alphatron's offering, Zacuto's is field proven, plus more compact, & rugged, so will remain in the kit.

Best,
B
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 20, 2012, 06:26:03 PM
Thanks a lot Bern, that was very usefull.

Cheers from (tropical) Madrid
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 20, 2012, 06:51:58 PM
"Im truely afraid of gear"

The worst thing that can happen is you buy a 5d, it has moiree, noise, and lack of resolution..

Here have a look at all of those things.. if you get the wrong camera it really could get this bad..

http://richlee.com/pub/SLASHsmall.mov

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on August 20, 2012, 11:17:10 PM
This might help - or add to the confusion.

I've put together a post comparing the costs involved in rigging up five systems for the cash-starved filmmaker - the bmcc with RAW, the bmcc with 220 Mbps HD, the fs100, the new Sony EA50, the Sony VG20 and the Nikon D800. The post is here: http://wolfcrow.com/blog/comparing-the-best-entry-level-cameras-for-the-indie-filmmaker/

Last year I did a similar post - where I concluded for personal reasons that the GH2 was an excellent tool for the beginning filmmaker. This year the entry costs have dropped down considerably. Maybe you can weigh the factors for yourself and understand what you're really getting into.

Hope it helps.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 21, 2012, 03:17:57 AM
I disagree with Morgan about EVFs. I have a 6.5" Marshall "daylight viewable" monitor with 1280×720 resolution, but much prefer an EVF for focusing, especially outdoors, & among the current options the new Alphatron's image is the crispest.

When I 'diss EVFs, I exclude the high resolution alphatron, which has 4X more pixels than the others, that is a very interesting EVF.

I just dont get how people think they a can focus 1080 resolution on a 480 device (the other EVFs), it just cant happen

You must be having a terrible time with that Marshall, which would not suprise me!

Of course there is Ergonomics to consider, EVFs win on some fronts and monitors on others, for example a monitor is heavy - bad, while you can view it from a distance, like if the camera is on the ground .. good

S

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 21, 2012, 04:34:17 AM
The main downside I see with monitor in focus
Config is the weight in the front, wich obliges
To rig the weights counter more further. It breaks
The compactness. To keep the gravity center and
Not get muscles and back fatigue too early, I really
Have to place the counterweights really much further
Or ad 3 times much weight. The rig is then too long for my
Taste. Now, the focus acuracy is 100%.

The sunshade is really problematic indeed. Where the light is bright,
like in California or Spain, this is really a more dramatic issue because
it obliges to mount the longuest hoods, wich then obliges to place the
monitor even further.
Specialy relevant when using the best natural light's hours where the
sun is quite horizontal to the shooter-screen.


Maybe guys you can help me on semantic.
I was not able to find in Madrid a quick release
Accesory to adapt on the monitor and arm,
Instead of having to screw it. I know it exists
But don't know the name in english.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 21, 2012, 12:46:30 PM
Maybe guys you can help me on semantic.
I was not able to find in Madrid a quick release
Accesory to adapt on the monitor and arm,
Instead of having to screw it. I know it exists
But don't know the name in english.

I use Cine Lock(s)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Discontinued_Not+Discontinued&sts=ma&N=174&Ntt=Cine+Lock
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 21, 2012, 01:37:20 PM
Mr. Sareesh thanks a lot for the xlsx file. It will surely be useful. I'll read it only on saturday because now I have with me only a smartphone. Anyway it sounds as a great guide!

Mr. Morgan, why do you use an external monitor? The FS100 body-only pack should include a specifical loupe for the on-board monitor, isn't it? Isn't it useful?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 21, 2012, 03:19:52 PM
Mr. Morgan, why do you use an external monitor? The FS100 body-only pack should include a specifical loupe for the on-board monitor, isn't it? Isn't it useful?

The onboard monitor is 480px, but now has useful focus check - which makes a differece (new in firmware)

If you are operating handheld there is no comfortable hold using the 'chimney pot' due to the front heavy position

Operating from a tripod one could use the onboard monitor.

My setup on the shoulder the onboard monitor is very nice for a director to watch from behind you

The chimney pot and handle are also made of unpleasant plastic. Might sound stupid but I dont like them near me.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 21, 2012, 04:34:40 PM
I dont really know how to take this thread further.

Its a bit like (and I guess you are a photographer) saying 'what camera is best'

Well maybe 10.8 for landscape, or an iphone thats with you, or a D3 for sport, or or or

One difference is videography is not easy, and the gear does not work out of the box, like a D3 and the 3 nikon flagship zooms you really are good to go on 90% of stuff.. a video camera less so.

The onboard monitor could work, or not, or maybe or sometimes.

For example interviewing Jenny Bond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennie_Bond) (at midday, outside in the sun and wind) tested me and my gear (as seen above), to or beyond, its/my limits, the same project also called for some Broll that I shot with a $500 tripod and the bare FS100 with kit lens.

You gotta get a feel for it.

To me I require from a camera..
I can see
I can hear
I can put the lens where I want, in motion or stationary
The batts dont conk out

sounds simple enough!

S





Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 21, 2012, 06:16:11 PM
I use Cine Lock(s)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Discontinued_Not+Discontinued&sts=ma&N=174&Ntt=Cine+Lock

Thanks a lot Bern,

That was what I was looking for.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 21, 2012, 10:15:07 PM
I just dont get how people think they a can focus 1080 resolution on a 480 device (the other EVFs), it just cant happen

I was initially concerned the resolution of the EVFs might not be being sufficient, but in practice have never had much of an issue. There's always pixel-to-pixel punch in when needed, but I rarely use it.

A similar example is RED's monitors, & EVFs. None are more than 1280 pixels wide, but designed for 4-5k cameras. On that note, Canon better stepup their C500's LCDs, as the C300's would be woefully inadequate for 4k.

One of my favorite features of an EVF is the enhanced ergonomics. In addition to a better balanced rig, the fourth contact greatly assists stabilizing handheld work.

That said, EVFs are not for everybody. We all have preferences, & in the example of RED's Bomb EVF some users reported visual issues that appeared related to their specific eyesight.

Best,
Bern

PS Starting tonight SmallHD is having 10% sale for the next two days
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 22, 2012, 01:51:17 AM
I dont really know how to take this thread further.
.................................
One difference is videography is not easy, and the gear does not work out of the box,
.................................................
To me I require from a camera..
I can see
I can hear
I can put the lens where I want, in motion or stationary
The batts dont conk out

It all works just fine. You just need to use proper professional video kit correctly specified for the job and know how to use it.

All this current nonsense using video capable DSLRs for video work is like using an iphone for professional photography.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 22, 2012, 02:50:55 AM
You just need to use proper professional video kit correctly specified for the job and know how to use it.

For this specific project I'd stretch my budget to include at least a 2nd hand FS100. The new profiles seem to have tamed the color, & I imagine there are numerous owners upgrading to the newest take, so bargains can be had.

North Light is relatively weak, & the Sony's extended ISO could be a great asset. I don't imagine NDs will be much of a factor, & as needed screw-in would suffice.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 22, 2012, 03:27:02 AM

All this current nonsense using video capable DSLRs for video work is like using an iphone for professional photography.

I don't really know if it's all black or all white.

I had the oportunity to talk with pro broadcast
Cameramen who are working in a prod house
Specialized in live events that outsource the tve.
They work on Thomson cams, big mediums etc...
Strangely, for their indy stuff One uses a 5d2 and
Another a gh2 not even hacked.

Recently I read a report from a big prod house
In the usa of one of the Camera operator came
With a hacked gh2 to film from a small corner
And after reviewing the footage they ordered
Several bodies to panasonic.

I must say that the more i learn in video, the
More i tend to agree with Paul. Why insisting
In using dslr and not cameras designed for video,
Included those low-end camcorders with fix zoom
That are generaly more efficient for filming.

But it seems to me that this isn't really a straight road.

At what costs are we talking about for a proper
Video camera - camcorder , and form factor, that
Will give the quality of a hacked gh2 or 5d ?
I've been trying a few affordable and the footage
Really looked like an i.phone and to have better,
You need to jump to real pro gear, and the prices
Jump drasticaly.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 22, 2012, 03:41:50 AM
Fred,

A Producer just sent me this reel from a team he's working with.

http://vimeo.com/18484574

Think what you might about the visuals, but I didn't dwell on the camera. For awhile I've pushed him to equip all camera crewmembers, especially documentary, with GH2's for additional footage.

For my work the GH2 has only been a B-Roll camera, but B-Roll is fun. And the ability to take stills in the same package, pacticularly in multiple aspect ratio, is a Killer Feature. All combined the GH2 has become my prefered walk-around camera, enhancing it's fondness, & calling to be used more widely.

Best,
Bern.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 22, 2012, 04:37:30 AM
It all works just fine. You just need to use proper professional video kit correctly specified for the job and know how to use it.

All this current nonsense using video capable DSLRs for video work is like using an iphone for professional photography.

Video cameras don't all work fine. the EX1 form-factor well known for poor performance on the shoulder

(shooting on the shoulder is done when you want the lens placed at a good eyeline)

The length and mass of 'proper' ENG cameras cause significant issues in interesting lens placement. (car mount an F900?)

The FS series dont have monitoring suitable to sustain focus with the narrow DOF often chosen.

Big ENG cameras do at least do the job they were designed to do well, they are also 10X the price of most of the cameras the oP can afford.

S



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 22, 2012, 05:41:28 AM
Exactly.

An example. I had this little gf2 as
A pocket CAM. Well, the gf2 is also
Hackable. I've hacked it at 100 mbs stable.
If it doesn't give the quality of a gh2, it
Does give the output of a 5d2. Amazing
For a pocket CAM.
More importantly, tonight I'm going
To a jazz jam session, I'll mount on
This toy a cine cooke vintage and it will
Fit in the smallest bag, a compact CAM One.

And guess what, some of those
Informal takes might be used
Later on for the musician's prod
In a video clip, mixed with footage
Of expensive cams and nobody
Will complain.


Recuenco uses this all the time, mixing
Alexas with 5d2 etc...

Ps: we used the canon in fashion. No need to
Precise that the muas are using hd make-up.
We came to the conclusion that the 5d is just
About perfect, organicaly speaking, because
It lacks precision. The hacked gh2 is no fun
Because too detailed and really not good
For fashion, it chalenges too much the muas.
Instead of fashion, what we had was like
Dematologist medical footage.


A note that I think usefull to keep in mind about the term I used of "HD makeup", because there are often confusions. (as well as marketing)
Lot of shooters thing that if they hire MUAs who use hd make-up, it will be suitable for an hd output...this is far from being the case.
HD makeup is simply a technique used before (when cameras weren't hd) and wich consists in puting the emphasis on natural look.  In other words, the skin looks real skin.
Yes the make-up is micro and invisible but this isn't just about the labeled hd make-up but a technique (advanced technique) and if the MUAs aren't good, HD or not HD make-up it wouldn't work.
As for the shooters, avoid entering the make-up area with your cam while muas are using those micro powders, specially with aerograph because you'll end with micro particules everywhere on your gears.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 23, 2012, 01:57:56 AM
Video cameras don't all work fine. the EX1 form-factor well known for poor performance on the shoulder

The length and mass of 'proper' ENG cameras cause significant issues in interesting lens placement. (car mount an F900?)

The point I was making is that proper professional video cameras work just fine and have done for decades. Things like the EX-1 are just 'serious' amateur cameras.
F900 on a car ? Same form factor as a PDW-700, and I spent Monday morning doing a car shoot with two of them mounted on an Peugeot 406 estate.

If people want to make proper commercial productions use the professional kit and staff that deliver the goods .
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Petrus on August 23, 2012, 02:51:17 AM
All this current nonsense using video capable DSLRs for video work is like using an iphone for professional photography.

VIdeo capable DSLRs have been used in countless professional productions with great results. We use them all the time, but they are used more like silent movie cameras than video cameras. For "video" work we have proper video cameras...
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 23, 2012, 04:46:29 AM
The point I was making is that proper professional video cameras work just fine and have done for decades. Things like the EX-1 are just 'serious' amateur cameras.
F900 on a car ? Same form factor as a PDW-700, and I spent Monday morning doing a car shoot with two of them mounted on an Peugeot 406 estate.

If people want to make proper commercial productions use the professional kit and staff that deliver the goods .

Paul, that's a fair statement, but not
Without questions I'd like you to answer
A few if you don't mind because we'd all
Benefit from your experience.

What you point is true, and at the same
Time is it doable?

You are into the elite and trained in the
British broadcast, wich is probably the
Best in the world. And you belong to a
Generation highly skilled within a stable
Corporation if I might say to use a shortcut.

When you started and learned, there wasn't
Those little cheap boxes capable to deliver
Unthinkable quality just a few years ago, in
Wich we can even mount the best cine lenses.

Also, rule game has changed in the business and
To date it's the wild west.

Teevees are firing people, the younguest generations
Because it costs less. Low-end campaigns are done
Now with pirats with their dslr and graded with magic
Bullet looks 200 bucks app. People like you are generaly
Working in high-end com, cine, 3d. But the next generation
Are dslr users, after effects experts, and plug-ins addicts.
And currently are creating looks the ad agencies are
Talking seriously. You know that internet advert will beat
Other mediums. It's the mobile phone era.

And, for the first time, the new generation will have
To live with less than their parents.

When you say to use proper video cams, the budget
Question araises. If you had 20 now, what would you
Use?
Or said differently, could you recommend a proper video camera
That is affordable for the people who are making their
Steps in motion and want to grow, that would meet the
Requierements you think it should?

If you can give a few gear models, I shut my mouth and
Will listen to you. But if your statement is based on
Unrealistic budgets for Most of us, then it's no surprise
We are using af100 and gh2

The thing is that to become good, we have to produce,
Film, edit over and over again. Then if growing, the equipment
Do so. To reach the elite we have to work a lot of low-end
Assignements, in wich dslrs are difficult to beat.
Again, this is not a critism, you know i have great respect
For you, but I think that you are writing from  your
Position. Now, I'd be very happy if you could go deaper
In your statement about dslrs and give an alternative,
Thinking if you were currently learning in the time we are in
And with the vast offer of systems available.
 
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Petrus on August 23, 2012, 05:54:33 AM
Canon XF-305 is the first sub-10k$ video camera which is officially approved by BBC for TV productions. Previous "cheap" cameras with BBC stamp of approval cost $50k minimum. So some of these "prosumer" video cams are getting good enough for serious work also.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 23, 2012, 06:57:59 AM
Thanks.
It's a 7500euros camera.
Specs look good, specially like the mxf.
Yeah, it looks like an hassle-free device.

The bitrate is not stellar though. The hacked gh2
Can jump to 4 x this and the canon more than double.

Of course, this isn't all about bitrate and this
Canon is undoubtly a great tool looking at all
The parameters with good usability.

However, I can mount pl lenses, cooke, anamorphic,
The zeiss line, leitz etc...

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 23, 2012, 03:19:28 PM
If people want to make proper commercial productions use the professional kit and staff that deliver the goods .

This is a fair point worth thinking about.

In stills world I laugh at those doing football with a 5.6 Stigma zoom, while I have my nice 400 2.8, Ive never owned any crap glass for stills or really any kit that was not top line. I started with an Fm2 and a 50 1.4, top line, and stuck with it that way

When investing in kit it is certainly worth thinking about flowing in that direction

For example I bought a Tascam sound recorder, and it said 'error' first time I pointed at someone professionally, I was so mad I bought a Sound Devices recorder the next day, now if I had just bought the Sound Devices in the first place then ...

I have Vlock batteries, decent monitors (no I didnt get the SDI connections and will regret it) Satchler sticks, nikkor glass, nice cans, nice mics, decent  cans.. all nice stuff

Im just waiting out for a decent S35 camera head, maybe the Black Magic 2 or something. And then I will have a true cinema kit close to any professional.

--

I think (and blogged http://www.dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=111&Itemid=1) that probably the best $$££ go in either pro kit, OR really cheapo consumer stuff

Ive just got the NEX5n and its a right laugh

£100 tripod will keep your camera kind of still, a £3g satchler will perform art, a £700 Frotto, is just wasting £600, because its not much better than the £100 china job

S



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 23, 2012, 03:23:50 PM
But maybe im a dinosaur too.

That 400 2.8 was bloody critical with a 4mp camera only good to 400ISO

Todays Stigma kiddy has a camera he can crop to 1/4 of the image and has a load of ISO and a fuller bank account - not suprising he is so cheap.. and really not bad

S

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 23, 2012, 06:49:13 PM
Hi guys, just a math question:
let's say that you have to shoot a wall and you want to shoot a 5m large section of that wall; you have a 24mm lens mounted on a 1.5 cropped sensor. At which minimum distance from the wall do you put your camera to take that 5mm large section? Does a formula exist?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 23, 2012, 07:04:32 PM
http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm angle of view calculator

you can do the rest

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: adrjork on August 23, 2012, 07:54:56 PM
Wow! Thx a lot!
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 23, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
If you have an iOS device I highly recommend the pCAM app.

www.davideubank.com/Good_Focus/pCAM_Film+Digital_Calculator.html
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Petrus on August 23, 2012, 11:45:17 PM
Hi guys, just a math question:
let's say that you have to shoot a wall and you want to shoot a 5m large section of that wall; you have a 24mm lens mounted on a 1.5 cropped sensor. At which minimum distance from the wall do you put your camera to take that 5mm large section? Does a formula exist?

Wall length/distance = sensor width/focal length ( two similar triangles if we are talking about focusing not too close)

thus: wall length * focal length / sensor width = shooting distance, (5m*0.024)/(0.036/1.5)=5m measured form the front nodal point. In real life just a notch further away.

Basic geometry.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 24, 2012, 02:26:38 AM
And then I will have a true cinema kit close to any professional.
Kit doesn't make you professional. Professional means you're earning your living from your skills in a vocation.

Most professional camera staff in TV and film DON'T own kit, they just hire it in or have it provided for them.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 24, 2012, 03:58:49 AM


Most professional camera staff in TV and film DON'T own kit, they just hire it in or have it provided for them.

Exactly.

My previous post, directed to Paul, was a little bit
Provocative on purpose, for the ones who caught it
Between lines.

That's because since I diged into motion imagery with
Great passion, I've seen both a lot of help as well as clear
Hostility from the established older pros.

The discourses that comes over and over again as to do
With the "dslr generation". They specially (talking from my
Experience in spain) hate the photographers going-doing
Video Assignements.

More than once they clearly make us feel that they
Are a closed corporation in wich we are far from being
Welcome and they see us as a bunch of parasites.
Ironicaly, most of then are doing photography as amateurs
And they would talk with us hours and hours on the
Topic, but when it comes to share their knowledge (in general
Technicaly very high) in video, they look at us with
Condescendence and simply ignore us, transmiting clearly
That we're a gang of unknowledgable dreamers. The very few who
Help with enthusiasm are as rare as A day without traffic
Jam in new-york.

They specialy hate dslrs video culture, they don't understand
How we can dare to make campaigns, paied, with so little
Mediums compared to what they are used to, most don't
Really catch yet the internet supremacy support and
They see all the changes in techniques and culture as
A fake fashion that won't last very Long and things will
Soon be back in the previous model. But things won't be
Back, on the contrary.

From my experience, I avoid now to be too closed to the
People who are currently the active pros in the area I'm learning
Because all the feedback we get is: good boys, stay were
You are and don't even dream of it.
The older the guys are, the more harsh they tend to be with us.
Don't dream, don't dream...

The only prob, is that I'm a dreamer.

In general, it takes an average of 10 years to be
Good at any craft. I' ve been into motion seriously
For about 2 years and still all to learn. I think
We are all aware of it. Only the very best in techniques
Or creativity, and the best self-sellers will make it to become
Pro, as Paul said, nothing more than having the incomes from
It.

What I'm seeing here is that people like me gave-up
To try to enter the established prods learning sweeping
The floor and carrying fresnels. What we start to do are
Very similar to Morgan's business model (if I understand
his business model). A little prod
On our own, with much less mediums, yes some dslrs here
Or there, good CAM in the AF-FS 100 style,
and as much creativity as posible.

A big brand already contacted us. They didn't gave us
An Assignement but they told us that they are following
Us and don't discart future colaborations for internet output.

It's nice to see that if we don't get any help from our
Fathers, ads agencies are taking us more seriously than
They do.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on August 24, 2012, 09:25:00 AM
The only prob, is that I'm a dreamer.

+1
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 25, 2012, 02:13:00 AM
when it comes to share their knowledge (in general
Technicaly very high) in video, they look at us with
Condescendence and simply ignore us

The problem is that most of the knowledge and experience from working professionally in TV and film is simply not applicable to the sorts of no budget, one man band productions that the "dslr generation" are experimenting in.

To answer your previous query; There are already many established routes into the industries, mainly now via University and College courses. These provide more than enough entrants to the industries who already have a lot of the important basic skills and knowledge.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 25, 2012, 05:06:08 AM
Paul,

You're absolutly right and it explains in part
The reactions and reserves of the high-end pros
Towards us.

But when it comes to being back on the benches
To study, it's the wild west and currently a question
I've been asking myself seriously without answer to
Date.

There are more  training options than before, the
University being the less expensive and solid. but
The market is overcroweded, there are not enough
Prods for the current demand. Already too much
Active pros and too much students for the offers.

As i know a lot of people and know the backstages,
It's very rare that the few good ones who are doing
Advert campaigns integrate new "kids" in their team.
In general they work with the same crew they used
To work with since the begining. And the tendency is
Being conservative and less crew because the budgets
Are not the same, included in the elite.
You see the Team of One of the best advert cineast and
The guys are average 50 years old and belong to the
Elite for a long time.

Curiously, those same guys, who still Film with arri film
Cameras are mixing on set dslrs, even sometimes iPhones,
Etc...it seems that there is a fun game in wich themselves
Are questioning and rebuilding their own workflow.

The proper Almodóvar have used a 5d2 on set for some
Takes in an hospital. All the rest has been done on film.
What sure is that everything looks confused and the
Old and heavy workflow is mixing with new and lighter
Approach, and us in the middle in a world that fire more
People than employs. That's why the pirat route, as i call it,
The learning with trial and errors in self-built micro prods
Far seat from the pro circuit are often the only way
For the newcomers. I've seen enough university, cine
School students ending in a supermarket carrying boxes
For 800euros/m.

chris Barrett for ex is learning that way, while filming,
Involving himself in some Projects even if not ready
Yet from an industry point of view. And it's the US. In
Europe it would be much more difficult if not belong
To the corporations.

Not Easy to see what's the best way, studying, jumping
Into unknown waters and learning on set...what's sure
Is that the all game is changing and it's very confusing.   

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 25, 2012, 10:18:21 AM
Kit doesn't make you professional. Professional means you're earning your living from your skills in a vocation.

Most professional camera staff in TV and film DON'T own kit, they just hire it in or have it provided for them.

Own/Hire/Steal/Borrow - whatever the FxxK - kit you use

RossyD - I thought I gave reasonable credence to your post and you just come back with more negativity

I feel that you feel that anything but a BBC training program in 1957 and working on East Enders is for losers

I am a loser . Sorry.

And East Enders is crap - I prefer Stenderz shot with a crew of 2 on an FS100 http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSUPERMASSIVERAVER

Note how the opening frame they dergrade the footage to make it look like a lot of what you shoot.

More Stenderz http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1E4C2A1850DCF4C5

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 25, 2012, 11:34:43 AM
Hey, those guys are fun ! thanks to put this refreshing link.

See ? Morgan's reaction is exactly what I was talking about before. And here in Spain it's the bloody same story.
Whatever that's not TVE approoved, training, cams and why not diploma is considered as peace of crap. (and
the most interesting part is checking the prices of the trainings in TVE, I mean you'd pay already for a reasonably good production house
equiped with Alexas...).

I understand such reaction because I had exactly the same many times when trying to get some help-advices from the Big Boys
and the only feed-back was negativity and more negativity in the best cases, hostility in most of them.
Edit: to be fair a few real help too.

I guess there is a generational unsolvable conflict because nobody seems to understand nor trying to understand the other part,
but man, it conforts me in the idea that we have to take different path and enjoy the journey regardless of the "excelent feedback and
encouragements" from the established elite.

I beleive that we are the future, we don't have to do the things that way it's been told us to do because it simply means not
doing them and things have to move forward in different forms, with different mediums and people.
We will do our bullshit imagery with after-effects, 3000 euros cams, 2 or 3 people crew, and bloody hell, it will work!

Ads agencies are already more looking at us.

The establishment don't want us? We don't need them. We need to create new mediums to distribute our work,
new looks, less steadycams, less cranes, less trucks and HMIs, less 50.000 euro cameras, less traditional workflow
and f...k TVE and all the big production dictature!

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Chris Sanderson on August 25, 2012, 11:52:21 AM
Just get out and shoot. Tell a good story. Use the equipment that is right at the time.
There isn't much of an audience that gives a rat's ass how you got there - except those that have a vested interest.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 25, 2012, 12:08:22 PM
When I saw you had posted Chris I thought I was in for a slapped wrist :)

===

I think there is a balanced path.

I am hugely influenced by my local BBC shooters who have kindly given me pointers, one is a modern VJ the other is old skool Beta

The Beta Guy shoots much nicer stuff.

The balance is to travel a path using the new and appreciating the old, tried, tested reliable.

The beeb also switched to FCP recently - slung out their tape system - I have also given them some pointers so its not even entirely one way.

Beta Guy also uses this now.. http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/xdcamcamcorders/pmw-500/overview, it a nice camera, out of my range.. but I still think its a nice cam.

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 25, 2012, 12:27:49 PM
A Chris S post ?... I thought he had sold the Panasonics and drawned into the depraved life of sex drug and RnR. ::)
Nice to see you here again. I remember when this video section had about 2 or 3 posters a mounth. Things have changed since then.
Good quote.

The balance is to travel a path using the new and appreciating the old, tried, tested reliable.

I think it's a wise statement.

The Sony you linked, look, to get 50 in progressive it would shoot at 720, it doesn't break the 50 Mbps barrier and still the bloody same MPEG-2 long gop, mount is 2/3 Sony and it's 4:2:2
of course it would record at 24bits, at those level of equipment we couldn't expect less. I think of a used Red One (if you can find one!).
Grass Valley LDK 8000 cameras are awesome. Shit...130.000 US dollars. A joke!

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Chris Sanderson on August 25, 2012, 05:37:45 PM
... I remember when this video section had about 2 or 3 posters a mounth. Things have changed since then.

Yes, thanks mainly to you and Sareesh, Morgan, Bern C, ++.

Thanks for being here.

This rig is fun (with thanks to Peter James ASC)
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 25, 2012, 06:00:09 PM
Its got the same mattebox as mine.. pro kit all the way

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 26, 2012, 09:51:27 AM
I thought I gave reasonable credence to your post and you just come back with more negativity
Sorry if you find the objectivity of what constitutes 'professional' is 'negativity', that's something you'll have to deal with.
Quote
I feel that you feel that anything but a BBC training program in 1957 and working on East Enders is for losers
You 'feel' wrongly, just have the courtesy to read and comment on what I've actually written here;
"There are already many established routes into the industries, mainly now via University and College courses."
No mention of BBC training courses, or that anyone needs to have worked on any particular genre or programme.
Quote
I am a loser . Sorry.
And East Enders is crap - I prefer Stenderz shot with a crew of 2 on an FS100 http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSUPERMASSIVERAVER
Note how the opening frame they dergrade the footage to make it look like a lot of what you shoot.
More Stenderz http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1E4C2A1850DCF4C5
Not sure what your point is with this rant.
I haven't mentioned shooting on EastEnders here at all.
Although for clarification, others could match the "EastEnders look" with the same custom matrix and settings in similar Sony cameras, that 'look' was specified by the executive producer when the programme switched to HD aquisition.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 26, 2012, 10:09:56 AM
I think you are very negative about this whole thing - that made me cross - and ranty - especially while we are on board that it mainly photographers discovering video.

You also fail to acknowledge any value in any of the new generation of technology be that as a learning tool or an actual production tool.
I mean learning on a 7d or whatever is the most liberating thing for those looking to learn; colleges are obsessed with film still which creates a culture of exclusivity and staid approaches.

Photography, which I know something of, I mean the youngsters come on so fast.
I hated learning on film, simple lessons - how blurry a racecar, how to balance flash, used to take a week and now they take a minute those lessons.
Same is true with cheap digital motion capture.
Its so much fun.

Im telling you we are a a generation, one year, from cheap cameras that put the whole industry on its knees that really are production cams, the BMC is already putting egg on the face of the C300 F3 investors

Wont happen? my first 16mp stills cam cost £10g, I just bought another one for £500 - it will happen - as for all that Sony baked in looks stuff, its as outdated as a level 4 jpg for shooting pro stills.

You obviously have a deep skill set and lots of experience. Engage, critique, advise, enjoy.

Tell me the crap shots and how I can improve them, I think Im doing OK consider I usually work alone, with 'cheap' kit, In fact I would suggest my output looks better than 70% of BBC output (Being serious I would actually exclude EA in that 70% and a lot of the bigger stuff)

Reel http://www.sammorganmoore.com/video-showreel/camera-operator-main-reel-april-2012
Films http://www.sammorganmoore.com/best-videos

S





Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 26, 2012, 11:16:37 AM
I think you are very negative about this whole thing
Again, this your interpretation of what you think I'm saying, rather than what I've actually written.
I look at the whole DSLR bandwagon from a different position having spent so long in broadcasting. It's easier to be objective about where it really fits into the industry when you've seen more of the big picture.
Quote
You also fail to acknowledge any value in any of the new generation of technology be that as a learning tool or an actual production tool.
So what do you expect me to say ?
No I won't say "Gee awesome I can make a movie for a thousand bucks all by myself" It's bonkers. However I can see where they fit into the overall tool set available and use them when appropriate.
Quote
I mean learning on a 7d or whatever is the most liberating thing for those looking to learn; colleges are obsessed with film still which creates a culture of exclusivity and staid approaches.
They are ?? Spoken to many recent graduates ? I've just spent the last month working with the cream of graduates from Ravensbourne, Bournemouth, Westminster etc. who managed to get the huge opportunity of getting to work as assistants with OBS on the Olympics in London.
They're all well educated and knowledgeable about the industry and have significant experience of all types of kit from DSLRs to the full facilities kit their schools have.

You really don't need DSLRs to learn the basics and they haven't really brought much new to teaching. VHS camcorders did very well as teaching tools for framing, shot size etc. More modern solid state camcorders are even easier, giving easy access to NLE editing.
DSLRs can actually add a degree of complication that is an unnecessary distraction in a teaching environment.
Quote
... I mean the youngsters come on so fast.
Yes, they also need to understand that careers are a long haul. Those leaving colleges and schools now will probably need to work until their 70, there's plenty of time to learn and progress.

Quote
You obviously have a deep skill set and lots of experience. Engage, critique, advise, enjoy.

Tell me the crap shots and how I can improve them, I think Im doing OK consider I usually work alone, with 'cheap' kit, In fact I would suggest my output looks better than 70% of BBC output
Well if you've decided you're so much better than the majority of the BBC's output who am I to critique your work ?
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 26, 2012, 11:23:24 AM
We will do our bullshit imagery with after-effects, 3000 euros cams, 2 or 3 people crew, and bloody hell, it will work!
Best of luck.
You might well find that when you're having to shoot someone else's brief things gets less fun. Things get much tougher when you have to work within a fixed budget, deliver to a deadline, conform to technical standards, plus comply with all the legislation that applies to commercial work.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 26, 2012, 11:33:51 AM
Well if you've decided you're so much better than the majority of the BBC's output who am I to critique your work ?

Lots of interesting and valid points.

I said what my work 'looks' like - It should look good - Ive been framing and lighting for 15+ years as a full time job.
There is more to work that what it looks like; structure, sound, context, sense, content. Those are the areas I need to develop.

I think the really interesting future is melding work that looks good, with work that has the other attributes too

Im mainly talking 'factual' BTW BBC drama looks good.

S








Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 26, 2012, 02:56:36 PM
Best of luck.
You might well find that when you're having to shoot someone else's brief things gets less fun. Things get much tougher when you have to work within a fixed budget, deliver to a deadline, conform to technical standards, plus comply with all the legislation that applies to commercial work.

Paul,

Of course what you say in this thread is full of valid points and I don't think anyone questioned your experience and knowledge.
But basicaly you're saying (or that's what I understand) that there is only one way to become part of this industry and it's going to school-university.

My post on 3000 bucks budget and after-effect was of course an image with a tint of provocation, but I beleive there is some truth in it.

I learned and still learning the editing on Avid (wich is my main editor) and Grass Valley (wich is my prefered editor)
Those 2 aren't FCP10, you know that, nor easy and intuitive to learn at first but broadcast standart editors that I know. I've started to train with Nuke and Nuke is also that I know
the standart number one in compositing within the cine industry. But then...also what is true is that the Nukodas suite are closing, the Quantel Pablo suites are closing,
and the guys who are mastering after-effect are getting more and more assignements.
Yes, at first it was very-low end, almost jokes, now it's different and the ones who joke less are the Pablos operators etc...

I'm not far to think that Adobe will replace MC and FCP and will become the standart. And those kids who learned with their pirated Adobe suites and Canons and who are uploading their
prods in Vimeos will more likely to become the new Michel Gondry or Aveillan s than the university students. (but I can be wrong)

This is a complex debate and I don't think that the reality is as black or that white. If things were really stricktly as you say, why we see more and more of those really big and heavy
prod houses closing and why kids that learned with their dslrs and grade with the free versions of Resolve, composite with after effects are getting more and more work?
Because they are cheap only? But some are really good. Or maybe, could it be also because the tech is evolving at such speed that it allows to do the same, faster and with less budgets and crew
than 10 years ago.

I'm not for the chaos and the averageness. But schools? It's an option, but if this is the only option recognized by this industry then I want to cry. I thought that it still existed training on set, the old school, training filming in personal prods like many of the one who are now the big boys did.
Have you ever seem those photo graduated students on set? They know nothing when they come out of school. Everything have to be re-teached to them almost from scratch except for the lightning
and the cablery. Not everyone wants to be a gaffer. Specialy in fahion (not talking about high fashion), those students don't know anything about women, about fabrics, about casting etc...
They know about equipment and know how to make it work yes, and it's only 20% of the buzz.
Most know often more technicaly than their idols, but very little have vision, guts and artistical talent.
I'm on the ones who (naively maybe) beleive that the image school is the street, not the universities.

Oh wait...now there are also supermodel schools !...Schools that teach girls to become a model. None of them are working in the high-end that I know.

In fact, the pros like you are generally going 3D as the high-end has evolved also and the gravity center of the technicity and elite is now in 3D and big broadcast events.

Recognize that it isn't very encouraging for us is the only way to enter the industry is to go to Louis Lumiere School. (the level in math requiered is very high by the way)

Now, I'd like to ask a simple question: I'd like to know how many of the current advertising gurus, the really big ones, are coming from university-motion schools?
I'd like to know how many of the greatest filmakers have followed a full master in a prestigious school dedicated to video?
How many big artists have even stepped fine-arts?

There is IMO absolutly no problem in what you say, and I understand your points. But honestly, there are not very encouraging. Yes, you may give us in fact a gift trying to make us come back to hearth,
and maybe I'll be thankfull to you later and say: Paul, you were right.
At the same time, it's quite frustrating to see a pro like you in this forum and giving such laconic infos to us, instead of that, we'd all benefit of your contributions. Example. You posted this sentence in the thread
about the BM (I copy-paste)
"That sentence alone demonstrates that whoever is trying to sell this box hasn't a clue about the requirements of the market."
Ok, fine. But...what do we do with this? A novice would immediatly ask "what are those requirements then ?"
don't you think that developping a little bit more your argumentation would also help us and help this forum to be more solid ? edit: I'm not asking you to be a teacher as you're not paid for it,
and probably have no interest nor time, I'm just asking you develop a little more your argumentation so we see clearly why you say this or that.

But rules have to be broken, and new path have to be explored.

The video of Morgan about the athlet girl would have been BBC and TVE approved IMO.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 26, 2012, 04:14:46 PM
The video of Morgan about the athlete girl would have been BBC and TVE approved IMO.

There were some similar stuff in the Olympic run up, I think mine was more visual, photographic. 'cinematic', often the TeeVee really fall over trying to do arty, but are very good at reality and the like and the big multicam stuff (that I guess the BMC is a POS for)

Approval? - its only 28mbs - so no,

Im not too happy with the colour at all, too desat, work continues with my Sony Profile !

And of course story and edit .. Im learning

I hope I could do better now.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: bcooter on August 26, 2012, 04:25:11 PM
The problem is that most of the knowledge and experience from working professionally in TV and film is simply not applicable to the sorts of no budget, one man band productions that the "dslr generation" are experimenting in.

To answer your previous query; There are already many established routes into the industries, mainly now via University and College courses. These provide more than enough entrants to the industries who already have a lot of the important basic skills and knowledge.


This thread proves that everyone is different and in a world of white papers, specs, pixel peepers, a thousand PDF's,  it all comes down to everyone and I mean everyone has a different opinion and requirement.

If you want to stick your hand in a blender (I usually use this line quoting a different part of my anatomy) try getting previews, corrections and final delivery to 10 countries, 4 ad agencies, 2 editorial houses and 3 clients all on the same project.

Ask a question and you'll get 15 different answers.

_____________________________________________________

Though Primarily a still photographer, I've been shooting motion with stills for about 7 or 8 years because 1. I like doing it.    2.  I believed there would be a change in the market where projects would be combined    3.  It's profitable.

Actually when I started with motion imagery I felt there was a hole in the market.  There seemed to be two types of productions.  Video that looked like pull focus for 12 miles news coverage that was shot with a crew of 15, to film production that was beautiful but shot with a crew of 50 to 100 people with prices and the glacier speed to match.

There didn't seem to be anything in between and the segment  we slotted into has and continues to be a good source of billing for our business.

The thing I noticed about all digital capture was motion or stills, most of the professional innovation moved at a glacier pace.  It was either 3 ccd video cameras  at prices from $3,000 to $100,000 or 35mm film cameras which gave selective focus and thick, rich footage but were always a rental option that required more crew.

The 5D and RED changed this equation and now you can do a "film look" with less crew and a lot less wattage, which relates to a lot less expense.

Personally I have always owned my equipment, or at least 99.9% of it, including cameras and lights and a dozen computers.  The reason is it allows us to really know our equipment and we can test and shoot personal work when we like without worrying about the $4,000 a day minimum rentals and if budgets get tight we can move the numbers around to make it fit within a project. 

For motion I've owned most of the cameras mentioned on this thread (and a few more) and the 5d's, panasonics, even the Sony fs100's work fine under slower, very controlled conditions, but IMO nothing works better or is more robust than the REDs, especially the RED 1's as the file really has more latitude than any digital video or still file I've shot and allows for an amazing amount of style and correction in post production.   If I was a video only guy, I'd buy the Sony high def ENG's but when we've outsourced to operators that prefer these cameras I have always thought they looked like news video, not film and maybe it's my still photography roots but I want it to look like film, not video.

I also like the RED's for the ability to switch lens mounts from PL to Nikon.  It changes the character of the camera and how I can shoot it.   I know that RED has a very polarizing effect on the industry.  A lot o film guys hate it as they're very resistant to change, the video guys hate it because it doesn't come as a one package shoulder mount system with a zoom rocker. 

Now the economy has squeezed everything tighter and I find the quality of almost any project, motion or stills is always related to the budget, unless your willing to adapt and have crew that really can multi task.   IMO, gone are the days where one guy is only capable of doing one function and one alone.

We just finished a project shooting real people and professional talent  in testimonial and style with added voice over and effects.  The first segment of this project was in Southeast Asia two countries, large budget.  We had a crew of about 25 people.

The second segment of the project was budgeted at almost 1/2 included 4 countries and obviously something had to be trimmed so I made the decision to add more imagery for each video and decided to always keep the camera moving and use most of the dialog in voice over form.

This took more effort and time in post production, but saved hundreds of thousands in on set production and I hate to admit it but made for a much more compelling final product.   

____________________________________________________

So my point in this rambling thread (sorry for the length) is if your starting out, first decided what you want to be, because you are what you shoot.  Then decide what equipment and style of business operation will get you there.  If you want to be a camera operator that never touches anything but a Sony then learn it and go for it, but be careful because the commercial world expects much more for every dollar invested and the person that can only do one thing usually finds they are asked to do less and less.

My second point is, don't waste money trying to make cheap cameras do professional production.  Nobody has time for HDMI cables that pop out, or audio inputs that pop and crack.  Unlike stills fixing things in motion imagery is very, very expensive.

My third point is be prepared to deliver more than any client can require.  Sure you can shoot almost any project with a rental ENG if your skilled, but what do you do when the client requests stills from the footage?  Does that happen . . . yes and it happens more and more.

My fourth point is if you think buying a $3,000 dslr is going to be the end of it remember that's just the down payment on moving to motion.  You'll find with most dslrs, to get them to almost professional levels you spend three times one accessories than you will on the camera body.

My fifth point is, think like a producer and the client.  Think about what they require, what they might require in the future and what it takes to guarantee that you will deliver with no drama.

My last point is forget the past because the old ways suck.  OK, I'll admit experience is golden and means more than any asset you posses, but don't get caught up in ever saying "back in the day we always . . .".  That world is gone will continue to change and unless you find a way to keep running, you'll get passed by.


Oh yea, Number 6.  There are no rules.

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/magic_bl/image/magic_man615.jpg)
http://www.spotsinthebox.com/magic/



IMO

BC

P.S.   Buy a go pro and stick it in every shot.   It's goofy, very non professional but can offer some cut away footage that's invaluable. 

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 26, 2012, 04:34:19 PM
Go Pro

James try the NEX 5n (new one next week probably with ipone control)
Unlike a Gopro there is no fisheye, you can use ND, keep the shutter at 50 bla bla
16 2.8 lens costs $5
Also NEX mount so add your .. whatever if you want

Ive also seen a load of GoPro on TeeVee .. shows times are changing

My first broadcast gig I was hired as 'GoPro' operator - that stopped me in my tracks..

GoPro Operator.. http://www.sammorganmoore.com/backlot/scooter-gopro
NEx 5n - on modded steadicam.. https://vimeo.com/47720852
And a small build of the 5n.. http://www.halfinchrails.com/blog-of-the-halfinchrails-world/reporting-rig

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 26, 2012, 04:44:51 PM
But basicaly you're saying (or that's what I understand) that there is only one way to become part of this industry and it's going to school-university.
No, but it remains the most reliable way to make a career in the industry.
Quote
Or maybe, could it be also because the tech is evolving at such speed that it allows to do the same, faster and with less budgets and crewthan 10 years ago.
Not really.
Quote
Have you ever seem those photo graduated students on set? They know nothing when they come out of school.
See my reply to Sam. That's not the case in the UK. The better colleges are turning out graduates that have an appreciation of how the real world works and can be useful from day 1 on set in junior roles.
Quote
In fact, the pros like you are generally going 3D as the high-end has evolved also and the gravity center of the technicity and elite is now in 3D and big broadcast events.
Again that's not really the case. Yes, there is some parts of the industry that are pushing towards 3D, but the general feeling is that it's just a fashion that will quietly disappear within ten years. Even some of the really big industry players will admit it off the record.

Quote
There is IMO absolutly no problem in what you say, and I understand your points. But honestly, there are not very encouraging.
Giving false expectations to people is dishonest.
Quote
"That sentence alone demonstrates that whoever is trying to sell this box hasn't a clue about the requirements of the market."
Ok, fine. But...what do we do with this? A novice would immediatly ask "what are those requirements then ?"
The business of covering live sport on TV is just so far away from the scope of this forum it really isn't worth pursuing.
That Blackmagic think their product is even remotely capable of competing with the likes of the Sony HDC-1500 or LDK4000 in that highly specialised area demonstrates they have no clue at all about the requirements.
Quote
But rules have to be broken, and new path have to be explored.
It's actually rather insulting to imply that those in the industry don't explore new technologies and push boundaries. We do it all the time, some experiments work and get adopted, some don't and are left alone.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 26, 2012, 04:52:46 PM

That Blackmagic think their product is even remotely capable of competing with the likes of the Sony HDC-1500 or LDK4000

Surely they think it can be a good goalmouth cam or suchlike, personally I doubt it for the lack of wide, and I guess such (currently used) cameras are more remotely controllable and appropriate for live

I dont think they would see it as competition to the linked cameras!

S
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: fredjeang on August 26, 2012, 05:09:50 PM
Paul,
At least, thanks for answering more than 2 lines and developped more, it's clearer and makes it much more interesting-usable.

Again your points are perfectly honest and valid IMO.

ps: when I was talking about breaking rules, I wasn't thinking about the elite not experimenting, I was thinking about creating motion imagery without belong to the industry and create alternative distribution ways.

Ps2: the guys I was refering on a previous post who cover live events here work on LDK4000

-----

James,

Thanks for sharing this long post, always inspiring and interesting. I never get tired to watch this race movie but this time I had it muted in one computer while on another I was playing the Smashing Pumpkins super loud. Hey, it worked well too with the Pumpkins. It rocks.

------

Ps: the Hero gopro, I see it more and more used in teevee prods.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: opgr on August 26, 2012, 05:28:21 PM
Yes, there is some parts of the industry that are pushing towards 3D, but the general feeling is that it's just a fashion that will quietly disappear within ten years. Even some of the really big industry players will admit it off the record.

Perhaps worthy of a separate thread + I don't have any relevant experience in the motion industry, but I would like to add this:

For some odd reason producing miniature HD LCD panels has been prohibitive. (technologically and financially). However, we are now reaching a point in time were personal video glasses will become a viable reality. I believe that personal video glasses may finally give a reasonable 3D viewing experience, which may trigger a higher or at least continued demand for 3D. There are some additional factors which I believe to be critical: 1-When viewing 3D thru personal video glasses, the effects should not be exaggerated like they are now, and 2-there are filmic techniques available in 2D, which are not available (or to a lesser extend) in 3D from the viewer's point of view. DOF would be an example.

Again, I have no relevant experience in the motion industry, so have nothing to add to this thread, but I thought this might be of interest.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Bern Caughey on August 27, 2012, 01:50:27 PM
I initially dismissed the Black Magic camera for numerous reasons, not least media management. It's 12-bit uncompressed RAW will be a beast for many productions, & storage alone will cost many times more than the camera.

But for many hybrid photographers it might be a powerful tool. & I'm sure lots of Indie filmmakers will embrace it.

I doubt it will ever live up to the hype of being a "Baby" Alexa, or RED, but I can see it used to supplement those in the right circumstances. Or even replacing those for some MultiCam gigs on a tight budget.

What really excites me is the option for 10-bit ProRes 422. I can imagine shooting most of a production in ProRes, & switching to RAW only when needed.

The BMCC is due in the next couple of weeks so we'll get more footage, & user feedback, soon enough.



Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 27, 2012, 04:55:20 PM
However, we are now reaching a point in time were personal video glasses will become a viable reality. I believe that personal video glasses may finally give a reasonable 3D viewing experience,
Given the most frequently cited reason for low take up 3D is the reluctance of the public to use glasses to view TV, I think you might not be quite right about this.
Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: opgr on August 29, 2012, 04:15:54 PM
Given the most frequently cited reason for low take up 3D is the reluctance of the public to use glasses to view TV, I think you might not be quite right about this.

I'm not talking about glasses to watch tv/movie-screen for which I can totally understand that sentiment. I was referring to glasses with built-in video panels. Perhaps they can not even be called glasses in some cases, although one of the latent applications is augmented reality so I suppose a variation with semi-transparent capabilities is going to be the more widely adopted type.

Title: Re: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie
Post by: Rhossydd on August 29, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
I was referring to glasses with built-in video panels.
Call 'em what you like, they're still glasses to the masses.